Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.
Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
Although for the sake of PB, not linking to any of his tweets at any time would be a good idea. They add nothing to the debate and really only show how, ummmm, unusual his views are.
I am not sure Laurence Fox's views are that unusual. Leaving aside the presumably defamatory tweets, his Twitter feed is not that far from social media posted by mainstream Conservative Party members these days. It's full-on culture war.
See Patel's slightly unhinged conference speech announcing nothing but that she doesn't like lefties today. The thing is, I don't think Brits are up for it really. You need two sides to play at culture-war, which is why Brexit was so effective, being near as dammit a 50 50 split. This is more like 70-30 stuff, where the 30% of inveterate ranters rant, while the 70% mostly don't care. We've had four exhausting years of culture war. Most people just want the news to go back to being something we listen to at 5pm and is a bit boring.
I think she's rather good. I don't see what you're objecting to in her speech either.
Could it be that the prospect of a 3rd female leader and one from Asian descent to boot whilst Labour persist with the white men alarms you?
Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.
I suspect his financial backing will dry up and he'll be back to begging for money on Patreon soon.
I really can’t see what the point of his political party is. Nor why so many people would give it so much money (if true). They’ll surely lose it all.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
I was aware that doors and windows were open but I assumed precautions would be in place (like heat curtains) to ensure rooms were not wet and freezing. Due to the virus I've not been in the classroom this academic year so I've not seen it, had no complaints from the girls though.
I always say never assume, but here I just assumed a solution would have been implemented over the summer. 🤷🏻♂️
I've worked in venues before where the door is kept open all day long, except exceptionally bad weather - and appropriate precautions were done so we were never working in wet and freezing conditions.
You expected the DfE to come up with a solution to a problem more complex than what to have for lunch?
For your last point, the problem is schools are not actually generally well built. They leak heat, and are too cramped for many radiators to be put in. Weirdly, modern ones tend to be even worse offenders than old ones (too much glass and the wrong shape of room).
Just for clarification, these days is it mainstream Conservative belief that the phrase "lefty lawyer" is a tautology? Because it seems as if it is? Whenever the law contradicts Conservative party prejudice the law is to be treated as an ass, and those who seek to uphold it are "lefties". There must be a lot of lawyers out there who previously thought of themselves as bastions of Conservative thought having political identity crises these days.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
Hmmmm... did they actually say that COVID security overrides the minimum temperature rules?
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
Hmmmm... did they actually say that COVID security overrides the minimum temperature rules?
Yes. And ordered a staff member who had shut windows to reopen them.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
Hmmmm... did they actually say that COVID security overrides the minimum temperature rules?
Or just visit on a sunny day and forget about it...?
Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.
Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
Although for the sake of PB, not linking to any of his tweets at any time would be a good idea. They add nothing to the debate and really only show how, ummmm, unusual his views are.
I am not sure Laurence Fox's views are that unusual. Leaving aside the presumably defamatory tweets, his Twitter feed is not that far from social media posted by mainstream Conservative Party members these days. It's full-on culture war.
See Patel's slightly unhinged conference speech announcing nothing but that she doesn't like lefties today. The thing is, I don't think Brits are up for it really. You need two sides to play at culture-war, which is why Brexit was so effective, being near as dammit a 50 50 split. This is more like 70-30 stuff, where the 30% of inveterate ranters rant, while the 70% mostly don't care. We've had four exhausting years of culture war. Most people just want the news to go back to being something we listen to at 5pm and is a bit boring.
I think she's rather good. I don't see what you're objecting to in her speech either.
Could it be that the prospect of a 3rd female leader and one from Asian descent to boot whilst Labour persist with the white men alarms you?
No. I find Priti rather appealing, until she opens her mouth and all that bile spews out.
Lots of polls on 538 taken over the last two days. The impact of President Trump's illness appears to be entirely neutral. Biden is ahead by 8 in 4 of them and by 10 in the last one.
Perhaps people can separate "I'm sorry he's ill" from "I want him to carry on being President"?
Am I missing something or is the treatment for Trump rather hefty for a guy that is showing mild symptoms. I know he is the POTUS but they appear to be throwing shit at him. Dexmethasone was reportedly good for the most severe cases and later in the illness but not necessarily beyond that.
Isn't the argument that they've already entered one country illegally, and should be claiming asylum there. The convention doesn't let you go from country to country until you've got to somewhere you like.
The point is that they're not fleeing war, persecution or famine, they're mostly coming from France - a safe first world country that's a signatory to many international human rights conventions.
Maybe this is the Republican dream scenario? A dead Donald Trump propelled to victory on the back of a sympathy vote, which instinctively anti-Trump Republicans will have no problems with?
Not much evidence of ANY sympathy vote for President, leastways as a mass phenomenon.
About only instance that comes to mind, is public reaction to failed assassination attempt against former President Theodore Roosevelt during his 1912 "Bull Moose" presidential campaign.
TR was shot by a less-than-fully sane former bartender who held him personally responsible for the assassination of William McKinley, which propelled him into the White House in the first place. Fortunately the bullet was partly deflected Roosevelt's spectacles case and his folded up speech.
Which insisted on delivering, speaking over half an hour - despite pleas from his entourage and the audience that he head for the hospital ASAP - making a point of defending the rights of workers and absolving labor from the attack against him. AND also demonstrating his fabled determination, luck, toughness and sheer bloody (or rather bully) willpower.
This happened about three weeks IIRC before Election Day. Before the advent of scientific polling, but no real doubt as to almost certain victory for Woodrow Wilson and the Democrats (after 16 years in the political wilderness) over the Republicans split between incumbent William Howard Taft and former Pres. and current insurgent TR.
In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, journos, politicos and pundits across the US detected a strong surge of feeling in Roosevelt's favor, with even strong opponents expressing both concern and admiration far beyond the merely pro forma. Some said it was affecting their votes, and more sensed this trend among their neighbors.
Clearly this rise in what we'd say today was TR's approval rating, was NOT just tea & sympathy. It was FAR more respect and appreciate for his strength and quality of character.
By Election Day, TR's surge had subsided somewhat; he ended up running second versus Wilson, but surpassing his former protege Taft. And with many a man who voted against him wishing that they could have voted in good conscious for such a goddamn glorious SOB.
Yes, but Teddy R. didn’t wander round for several days knowingly risking spreading a potentially lethal virus among his team and supporters.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
I was aware that doors and windows were open but I assumed precautions would be in place (like heat curtains) to ensure rooms were not wet and freezing. Due to the virus I've not been in the classroom this academic year so I've not seen it, had no complaints from the girls though.
I always say never assume, but here I just assumed a solution would have been implemented over the summer. 🤷🏻♂️
I've worked in venues before where the door is kept open all day long, except exceptionally bad weather - and appropriate precautions were done so we were never working in wet and freezing conditions.
You expected the DfE to come up with a solution to a problem more complex than what to have for lunch?
For your last point, the problem is schools are not actually generally well built. They leak heat, and are too cramped for many radiators to be put in. Weirdly, modern ones tend to be even worse offenders than old ones (too much glass and the wrong shape of room).
The advantage of an air curtain is they don't need wall space or radiator space, they get put up above the door/window on the inside pointing down.
Though having said that I don't know if they might reduce ventillation thus defeating the purpose of having the windows open in the first place, but I doubt it?
Isn't the argument that they've already entered one country illegally, and should be claiming asylum there. The convention doesn't let you go from country to country until you've got to somewhere you like.
The point is that they're not fleeing war, persecution or famine, they're mostly coming from France - a safe first world country that's a signatory to many international human rights conventions.
The point is that regardless of whether they are failing to claim asylum at the first opportunity, if they end up in the UK then how they got in is not a legal invalidation of their claim.
Am I missing something or is the treatment for Trump rather hefty for a guy that is showing mild symptoms. I know he is the POTUS but they appear to be throwing shit at him. Dexmethasone was reportedly good for the most severe cases and later in the illness but not necessarily beyond that.
Yes. I would have thought Trump was the sort of patient where it would be particularly efficacious to use a placebo, as I imagine he would be demanding every drug under the sun.
Am I missing something or is the treatment for Trump rather hefty for a guy that is showing mild symptoms. I know he is the POTUS but they appear to be throwing shit at him. Dexmethasone was reportedly good for the most severe cases and later in the illness but not necessarily beyond that.
Yes, but "special" patients are at risk from doctors being egged on to do something.
It would be very odd to be on dexamethasone but not oxygen.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
I am surprised. I deal with regulators quite often. I find HSE Inspectors to be very practical, unlike the Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales. I am surprised! Has your employer interpreted the HSE guidance appropriately?
Isn't the argument that they've already entered one country illegally, and should be claiming asylum there. The convention doesn't let you go from country to country until you've got to somewhere you like.
The point is that they're not fleeing war, persecution or famine, they're mostly coming from France - a safe first world country that's a signatory to many international human rights conventions.
The point is that regardless of whether they are failing to claim asylum at the first opportunity, if they end up in the UK then how they got in is not a legal invalidation of their claim.
They are no longer covered by the convention.
. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.
Unless their life was threatened in France, of course.
Maybe this is the Republican dream scenario? A dead Donald Trump propelled to victory on the back of a sympathy vote, which instinctively anti-Trump Republicans will have no problems with?
Not much evidence of ANY sympathy vote for President, leastways as a mass phenomenon.
About only instance that comes to mind, is public reaction to failed assassination attempt against former President Theodore Roosevelt during his 1912 "Bull Moose" presidential campaign.
TR was shot by a less-than-fully sane former bartender who held him personally responsible for the assassination of William McKinley, which propelled him into the White House in the first place. Fortunately the bullet was partly deflected Roosevelt's spectacles case and his folded up speech.
Which insisted on delivering, speaking over half an hour - despite pleas from his entourage and the audience that he head for the hospital ASAP - making a point of defending the rights of workers and absolving labor from the attack against him. AND also demonstrating his fabled determination, luck, toughness and sheer bloody (or rather bully) willpower.
This happened about three weeks IIRC before Election Day. Before the advent of scientific polling, but no real doubt as to almost certain victory for Woodrow Wilson and the Democrats (after 16 years in the political wilderness) over the Republicans split between incumbent William Howard Taft and former Pres. and current insurgent TR.
In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, journos, politicos and pundits across the US detected a strong surge of feeling in Roosevelt's favor, with even strong opponents expressing both concern and admiration far beyond the merely pro forma. Some said it was affecting their votes, and more sensed this trend among their neighbors.
Clearly this rise in what we'd say today was TR's approval rating, was NOT just tea & sympathy. It was FAR more respect and appreciate for his strength and quality of character.
By Election Day, TR's surge had subsided somewhat; he ended up running second versus Wilson, but surpassing his former protege Taft. And with many a man who voted against him wishing that they could have voted in good conscious for such a goddamn glorious SOB.
Yes, but Teddy R. didn’t wander round for several days knowingly risking spreading a potentially lethal virus among his team and supporters.
Certainly not. For one thing, he'd have considered such conduct unworthy of a gentleman. Secondly, he was an egotistical genius NOT an egotistical moron.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
I am surprised. I deal with regulators quite often. I find HSE Inspectors to be very practical, unlike the Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales. I am surprised! Has your employer interpreted the HSE guidance appropriately?
You misunderstand. It was the HSE inspector ordered that window to be reopened.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
I am surprised. I deal with regulators quite often. I find HSE Inspectors to be very practical, unlike the Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales. I am surprised! Has your employer interpreted the HSE guidance appropriately?
It seems to me that the great challenge of Covid is that there is no "practical" safety precautions. Safety measures for Covid trump all else. There's little or no 'relative' assessment involved.
Am I missing something or is the treatment for Trump rather hefty for a guy that is showing mild symptoms. I know he is the POTUS but they appear to be throwing shit at him. Dexmethasone was reportedly good for the most severe cases and later in the illness but not necessarily beyond that.
Indeed. The REGN antibody treatment is experimental, but from early trial results looks pretty safe, and has rationale as an early prophylactic as a means of preventing serious illness for infected patients* (and would appeal to someone like Trump, if only for its exclusivity). The steroid makes no sense at all unless he’s already quite ill. Though listening to some of his doctors, nothing would surprise me.
*Evidence of efficacy in this respect is thus far extremely sketchy, but it does seem significantly to reduce viral loads.
Maybe this is the Republican dream scenario? A dead Donald Trump propelled to victory on the back of a sympathy vote, which instinctively anti-Trump Republicans will have no problems with?
Not much evidence of ANY sympathy vote for President, leastways as a mass phenomenon.
About only instance that comes to mind, is public reaction to failed assassination attempt against former President Theodore Roosevelt during his 1912 "Bull Moose" presidential campaign.
TR was shot by a less-than-fully sane former bartender who held him personally responsible for the assassination of William McKinley, which propelled him into the White House in the first place. Fortunately the bullet was partly deflected Roosevelt's spectacles case and his folded up speech.
Which insisted on delivering, speaking over half an hour - despite pleas from his entourage and the audience that he head for the hospital ASAP - making a point of defending the rights of workers and absolving labor from the attack against him. AND also demonstrating his fabled determination, luck, toughness and sheer bloody (or rather bully) willpower.
This happened about three weeks IIRC before Election Day. Before the advent of scientific polling, but no real doubt as to almost certain victory for Woodrow Wilson and the Democrats (after 16 years in the political wilderness) over the Republicans split between incumbent William Howard Taft and former Pres. and current insurgent TR.
In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, journos, politicos and pundits across the US detected a strong surge of feeling in Roosevelt's favor, with even strong opponents expressing both concern and admiration far beyond the merely pro forma. Some said it was affecting their votes, and more sensed this trend among their neighbors.
Clearly this rise in what we'd say today was TR's approval rating, was NOT just tea & sympathy. It was FAR more respect and appreciate for his strength and quality of character.
By Election Day, TR's surge had subsided somewhat; he ended up running second versus Wilson, but surpassing his former protege Taft. And with many a man who voted against him wishing that they could have voted in good conscious for such a goddamn glorious SOB.
Yes, but Teddy R. didn’t wander round for several days knowingly risking spreading a potentially lethal virus among his team and supporters.
Certainly not. For one thing, he'd have considered such conduct unworthy of a gentleman. Secondly, he was an egotistical genius NOT an egotistical moron.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
I was aware that doors and windows were open but I assumed precautions would be in place (like heat curtains) to ensure rooms were not wet and freezing. Due to the virus I've not been in the classroom this academic year so I've not seen it, had no complaints from the girls though.
I always say never assume, but here I just assumed a solution would have been implemented over the summer. 🤷🏻♂️
I've worked in venues before where the door is kept open all day long, except exceptionally bad weather - and appropriate precautions were done so we were never working in wet and freezing conditions.
You expected the DfE to come up with a solution to a problem more complex than what to have for lunch?
For your last point, the problem is schools are not actually generally well built. They leak heat, and are too cramped for many radiators to be put in. Weirdly, modern ones tend to be even worse offenders than old ones (too much glass and the wrong shape of room).
The advantage of an air curtain is they don't need wall space or radiator space, they get put up above the door/window on the inside pointing down.
Though having said that I don't know if they might reduce ventillation thus defeating the purpose of having the windows open in the first place, but I doubt it?
Worth looking into at least I guess.
Anything’s worth looking into if it will help.
What’s worrying me is that we’re struggling with these rules after five weeks. If they were a temporary measure to get us going again that would be bearable. But no way can we keep this up through December and January. It’s going to be literally impossible. Too many people will be off sick. Already three colleagues of mine have gone off with various physical ailments linked to the systems.
Recommendation from the public health team in Ireland to return to peak lockdown conditions. Pubs have been open for thirteen days. Something of a surprise, but the hospital system in Ireland is much less able to cope than in the UK.
Recommendation from the public health team in Ireland to return to peak lockdown conditions. Pubs have been open for thirteen days. Something of a surprise, but the hospital system in Ireland is much less able to cope than in the UK.
Isn't the argument that they've already entered one country illegally, and should be claiming asylum there. The convention doesn't let you go from country to country until you've got to somewhere you like.
The point is that they're not fleeing war, persecution or famine, they're mostly coming from France - a safe first world country that's a signatory to many international human rights conventions.
The point is that regardless of whether they are failing to claim asylum at the first opportunity, if they end up in the UK then how they got in is not a legal invalidation of their claim.
They are no longer covered by the convention.
. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.
Unless their life was threatened in France, of course.
Isn't that a different issue?
1) can they be prosecuted (or have measures imposed upon them) for illegal entry to the Country - yes 2) do they have a right to claim asylum and have that asylum claim assessed on its merits - also yes
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
I am surprised. I deal with regulators quite often. I find HSE Inspectors to be very practical, unlike the Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales. I am surprised! Has your employer interpreted the HSE guidance appropriately?
You misunderstand. It was the HSE inspector ordered that window to be reopened.
One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:
There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.
As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.
Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.
There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.
The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.
Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.
The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
Wet and freezing classrooms?
My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
All windows and doors open.
Oh for ventillation. I see.
Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
It will kill people.
That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.
Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.
I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.
And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
I am surprised. I deal with regulators quite often. I find HSE Inspectors to be very practical, unlike the Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales. I am surprised! Has your employer interpreted the HSE guidance appropriately?
You misunderstand. It was the HSE inspector ordered that window to be reopened.
They are normally so practical. If I were consulting, I would challenge the notice. You are only expected to control risks in ways that are "reasonably practicable". Freezing children to death is not "reasonably practicable".
Am I missing something or is the treatment for Trump rather hefty for a guy that is showing mild symptoms. I know he is the POTUS but they appear to be throwing shit at him. Dexmethasone was reportedly good for the most severe cases and later in the illness but not necessarily beyond that.
Yes. I would have thought Trump was the sort of patient where it would be particularly efficacious to use a placebo, as I imagine he would be demanding every drug under the sun.
Perhaps the dexamethasone was actually a placebo instead ?
Isn't the argument that they've already entered one country illegally, and should be claiming asylum there. The convention doesn't let you go from country to country until you've got to somewhere you like.
The point is that they're not fleeing war, persecution or famine, they're mostly coming from France - a safe first world country that's a signatory to many international human rights conventions.
The point is that regardless of whether they are failing to claim asylum at the first opportunity, if they end up in the UK then how they got in is not a legal invalidation of their claim.
They are no longer covered by the convention.
. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.
Unless their life was threatened in France, of course.
Isn't that a different issue?
1) can they be prosecuted (or have measures imposed upon them) for illegal entry to the Country - yes 2) do they have a right to claim asylum and have that asylum claim assessed on its merits - also yes
The convention doesn't say anything about that. Just that you can't be penalised for an illegal entry if you are fleeing from a country where you are in danger.
Am I missing something or is the treatment for Trump rather hefty for a guy that is showing mild symptoms. I know he is the POTUS but they appear to be throwing shit at him. Dexmethasone was reportedly good for the most severe cases and later in the illness but not necessarily beyond that.
Anytime POTUS - any POTUS - gets the sniffles it's global news. Let alone when one contracts a killer disease.
Also a long and painful (for both incumbents & public) history of presidents receiving less-than-quality care at the hands of their top-flight host of medicos. With cases of Garfield and FDR being especially egregious.
Note that our current Fearless Leader has surrounded himself with a collection of highly dubious medicos, of the type who make the mobile doctor from "Cannonball Run" look like the director of the Mayo Clinic.
With any luck, one of these bright lights has already broken out a small heard of (medical) leeches, as just the latest bunch of natural-born blood-suckers to attach themselves to THIS president.
Letter in Lancet warning about false positive covid tests in a situation where large number of tests undertaken in a population with a low pretest probability.
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
My daughter has already complained that she's cold in school. They *have* to keep the windows open. And no, it isn't stopping the spread of the bloody pox which is tearing its way through various local schools. But it is going to make the kids ill.
Remember - it is *impossible* to socially distance kids at school. And the desperate attempts to mitigate - changed seating crushed into rows, changed start times etc - aren't going to change the realities of what happens when you take people from all those different places and bring them all together every day.
Government guidance on the full return of schools this term says: “Once the school is in operation, it is important to ensure good ventilation and maximising this wherever possible, for example, opening windows and propping open doors, as long as they are not fire doors, where safe to do so (bearing in mind safeguarding in particular).”
Don't "too cold" classrooms raise safeguarding issues, that overrule the guidance, surely?
Isn't it also the Government position that Covid regulations in schools are not primarily for the general welfare of children (for whom Covid is not a major risk) but for the welfare of those they could spread the virus to. So there is no justification in implementing measures harmful to children.
@DavidL I’m thinking of going to Edinburgh with my girlfriend for a weekend break. Is it worth going at the moment? Is anything open?
You should check all major attractions you want to visit as many (Castle, Museum of Scotland etc) are pre-bookable only. I would recommend the Mary King’s Close tour, despite the creepy modern day parallels, and there’s always the majestic Arthur’s Seat and Holyrood Park for outdoors.
In the next 48 hours I'm expecting it to be announced that most of this Liverpool team has tested positive for Covid-19.
It can be the only explanation for this shit performance.
The Leicester result alone was notable given they last week stuffed City, then Tottenham thrashed United, and now Villa are smashing Liverpool. This is a sequence of some of the most ridiculous results I can recall.
In the next 48 hours I'm expecting it to be announced that most of this Liverpool team has tested positive for Covid-19.
It can be the only explanation for this shit performance.
The Leicester result alone was notable given they last week stuffed City, then Tottenham thrashed United, and now Villa are smashing Liverpool. This is a sequence of some of the most ridiculous results I can recall.
There was quite a good graphic in 2015-16 showing how there was a sequence of 20 results involving one win and one defeat for each team:
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
Anyone defending anymore?
Not on goal difference
Think they would. They’re GD is 9 now v 7 for Everton.
@DavidL I’m thinking of going to Edinburgh with my girlfriend for a weekend break. Is it worth going at the moment? Is anything open?
You should check all major attractions you want to visit as many (Castle, Museum of Scotland etc) are pre-bookable only. I would recommend the Mary King’s Close tour, despite the creepy modern day parallels, and there’s always the majestic Arthur’s Seat and Holyrood Park for outdoors.
It’s a lot quieter than usual. It can be difficult getting into a pub without a booking and you are time limited. Hotels are inevitably a lot more limited in what they can offer. Theatres etc seem largely shut. I agree with @sarissa that there is still stuff to do but it’s nothing like normal.
Isn't the argument that they've already entered one country illegally, and should be claiming asylum there. The convention doesn't let you go from country to country until you've got to somewhere you like.
The point is that they're not fleeing war, persecution or famine, they're mostly coming from France - a safe first world country that's a signatory to many international human rights conventions.
The point is that regardless of whether they are failing to claim asylum at the first opportunity, if they end up in the UK then how they got in is not a legal invalidation of their claim.
They are no longer covered by the convention.
. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.
Unless their life was threatened in France, of course.
Isn't that a different issue?
1) can they be prosecuted (or have measures imposed upon them) for illegal entry to the Country - yes 2) do they have a right to claim asylum and have that asylum claim assessed on its merits - also yes
The claim of asylum from France has no merits, as there's no war, famine or torture going on there.
If we were to allow asylum seekers from France, we should also be pushing for UN sanctions against France.
In the next 48 hours I'm expecting it to be announced that most of this Liverpool team has tested positive for Covid-19.
It can be the only explanation for this shit performance.
The Leicester result alone was notable given they last week stuffed City, then Tottenham thrashed United, and now Villa are smashing Liverpool. This is a sequence of some of the most ridiculous results I can recall.
There was quite a good graphic in 2015-16 showing how there was a sequence of 20 results involving one win and one defeat for each team:
Tier 2 = substantial restrictions like we have in NE probably where the 7 date rate > 100/100,000
Tier 1 = most of England now
Would be helpful if useless Hancock and Dido could confirm now if its happening
I reckon if the Government try to reintroduce full lockdown then the Tory backbenches will call a VONC.
And hopefully they would win and get rid of the government - no one supports a full lockdown. We supported the lockdown March to June and in return expected the government to sort it out. they haven't.
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
Anyone defending anymore?
Not on goal difference
Think they would. They’re GD is 9 now v 7 for Everton.
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
Anyone defending anymore?
Not on goal difference
Think they would. They’re GD is 9 now v 7 for Everton.
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
Anyone defending anymore?
Not on goal difference
Think they would. They’re GD is 9 now v 7 for Everton.
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
Anyone defending anymore?
Not on goal difference
Think they would. They’re GD is 9 now v 7 for Everton.
Either way what a calculation to be making even.
I think you are confusing points at 9
Goal difference is Everton 9 Liverpool 0
No Villa have a game in hand over Everton and a GD of 9 ( as well as 9 points).
Still if as Foxy says it’s Villa/Leicester and the Merseyside derby What a weekend.
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
Anyone defending anymore?
Not on goal difference
Think they would. They’re GD is 9 now v 7 for Everton.
Either way what a calculation to be making even.
I think you are confusing points at 9
Goal difference is Everton 9 Liverpool 0
No Villa have a game in hand over Everton and a GD of 9 ( as well as 9 points).
Still if as Foxy says it’s Villa/Leicester and the Merseyside derby What a weekend.
Sorry. I thought you were talking about Liverpool
You are correct on Villa and it would be good for football
Comments
Could it be that the prospect of a 3rd female leader and one from Asian descent to boot whilst Labour persist with the white men alarms you?
Looks a bit like Carrey trying to do the monster from Alien.
For your last point, the problem is schools are not actually generally well built. They leak heat, and are too cramped for many radiators to be put in. Weirdly, modern ones tend to be even worse offenders than old ones (too much glass and the wrong shape of room).
5 - 1 to Villa and they have 11 v 11
Perhaps people can separate "I'm sorry he's ill" from "I want him to carry on being President"?
Am I missing something or is the treatment for Trump rather hefty for a guy that is showing mild symptoms. I know he is the POTUS but they appear to be throwing shit at him. Dexmethasone was reportedly good for the most severe cases and later in the illness but not necessarily beyond that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsije1KetVw
Though having said that I don't know if they might reduce ventillation thus defeating the purpose of having the windows open in the first place, but I doubt it?
Worth looking into at least I guess.
https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1312826570726412290
It would be very odd to be on dexamethasone but not oxygen.
. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their
illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory
where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or
are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present
themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their
illegal entry or presence.
Unless their life was threatened in France, of course.
The steroid makes no sense at all unless he’s already quite ill. Though listening to some of his doctors, nothing would surprise me.
*Evidence of efficacy in this respect is thus far extremely sketchy, but it does seem significantly to reduce viral loads.
Klopp how many goals are we going to concede today?
What’s worrying me is that we’re struggling with these rules after five weeks. If they were a temporary measure to get us going again that would be bearable. But no way can we keep this up through December and January. It’s going to be literally impossible. Too many people will be off sick. Already three colleagues of mine have gone off with various physical ailments linked to the systems.
Doesn’t exactly bode well for here either.
1) can they be prosecuted (or have measures imposed upon them) for illegal entry to the Country - yes
2) do they have a right to claim asylum and have that asylum claim assessed on its merits - also yes
Good news - alert over.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/17/nyregion/coronavirus-nyc-schools-reopening-outdoors.html
My wife is teaching in overcoat and scarf, and not in the least looking forward to colder weather.
Plus a billion points from Mo and Grealish
7-2
Have a nice evening everyone, thank you for the suggestions, and stay safe.
Will never win the title again
Also a long and painful (for both incumbents & public) history of presidents receiving less-than-quality care at the hands of their top-flight host of medicos. With cases of Garfield and FDR being especially egregious.
Note that our current Fearless Leader has surrounded himself with a collection of highly dubious medicos, of the type who make the mobile doctor from "Cannonball Run" look like the director of the Mayo Clinic.
With any luck, one of these bright lights has already broken out a small heard of (medical) leeches, as just the latest bunch of natural-born blood-suckers to attach themselves to THIS president.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1312842736563879936?s=19
It can be the only explanation for this shit performance.
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2213-2600(20)30453-7
What odds going into the international break of PL 123 being Everton, Villa, and Leicester, with both Liverpool and Man U conceding six each on the same day?
Anyone defending anymore?
Remember - it is *impossible* to socially distance kids at school. And the desperate attempts to mitigate - changed seating crushed into rows, changed start times etc - aren't going to change the realities of what happens when you take people from all those different places and bring them all together every day.
https://www.11v11.com/matches/tottenham-hotspur-v-liverpool-15-april-1963-77383/
Some famous names on both sides.
Government guidance on the full return of schools this term says: “Once the school is in operation, it is important to ensure good ventilation and maximising this wherever possible, for example, opening windows and propping open doors, as long as they are not fire doors, where safe to do so (bearing in mind safeguarding in particular).”
Don't "too cold" classrooms raise safeguarding issues, that overrule the guidance, surely?
Isn't it also the Government position that Covid regulations in schools are not primarily for the general welfare of children (for whom Covid is not a major risk) but for the welfare of those they could spread the virus to. So there is no justification in implementing measures harmful to children.
A variation on 'following the flute'
NI in total lockdown by end tomorrow
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3334888/Premier-League-graphic-shows-beat-England-s-division.html
Salah has scored 2 and is my captain, Grealish has almost outscored him in Fantasy football points
This is the tiering system which has been mentioned in the press recently.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/leak-reveals-possible-harsher-three-tier-covid-plan-for-england/ar-BB19H5CJ?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout
Tier 3 = lockdown
Tier 2 = substantial restrictions like we have in NE probably where the 7 date rate > 100/100,000
Tier 1 = most of England now
Would be helpful if useless Hancock and Dido could confirm now if its happening
Either way what a calculation to be making even.
I agree with @sarissa that there is still stuff to do but it’s nothing like normal.
If we were to allow asylum seekers from France, we should also be pushing for UN sanctions against France.
Thanks for coming Hancock and Dido.
Goal difference is Everton 7 Liverpool 0
Need young Wes in form.
Need to pick up and move on next week, not dwell on it.
The day I urge the sacking of Klopp is the day I form the Mark Reckless fan club.
Still if as Foxy says it’s Villa/Leicester and the Merseyside derby What a weekend.
You are correct on Villa and it would be good for football
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1312845448697262084