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History Today. A brief recent history of when dead Americans win elections – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited October 2020 in General
History Today. A brief recent history of when dead Americans win elections – politicalbetting.com

When dead Americans win elections, from 2000.https://t.co/z2TfY1BL9k pic.twitter.com/VtQwtZtbXb

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Comments

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    Dead Republican brothel owner. Mmm, I wonder who could have written that thread header?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    Third. Lol
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    OT already, but anyone know if and when we will have any data for today?
    Oh. And that's you that is.
  • Sounds like the makings of a Tim Burton movie.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited October 2020
    Maybe this is the Republican dream scenario? A dead Donald Trump propelled to victory on the back of a sympathy vote, which instinctively anti-Trump Republicans will have no problems with?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    Scott_xP said:
    For a Trump loather, I strangely, still find that to be in the worst possible taste.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Dead Republican brothel owner. Mmm, I wonder who could have written that thread header?

    I would never pay to have soulless, rubber-insulated sex with a dead Republican.
  • FPT - re the Spreader-in-Chief himself contracting COVID-19 (the Crud has the Crud and visa versa) methinks that PB Brits are thinking in terms of Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his predecessors (and successors) esp. the sickly ones.

    When the proper comparison for any US President (even our current Fearless Leader) is NOT with any PM, but rather with the Queen, and previous/future UK monarchs.

    In America, the President is NEVER just a VIP = Very Important Person. She or he is ALWAYS the MIP = Most Important Person.

    In monarchies, the health of the sovereign is ALWAY a major matter of state, both for it's immediate effects and (perhaps even more so) for the potential & actual impact on succession of the crown.

    Same in USA, except of course with limited terms most presidents do NOT die in office.

    However, enough have expired on the job to make presidential health a MAJOR preoccupation.

    Starting with the demise of William Henry Harrison in 1841 just a month into his first (and obviously only) term. Which launched a MAJOR political crisis. Soon followed by the death in office of yet another president, Zachary Taylor, on the eve of another critical moment in American politics (resulting in Compromise of 1850).

    These untimely vacancies got the ball rolling, and the assassination of Abraham Lincoln kicked it far down the field. Followed in fairly short order by the assassinations of James Garfield and William McKinley.

    Note that in the last two cases, presidential demise was prolonged (not the case previously) which increased public concern. Also, in both instances the victims were ill-served by the team of eminent doctors in attendance - very similar to the experience of George III and some other British monarchs.

    So American preoccupation with the health of their presidents was WELL established by the dawn of the 20th century. A century that saw two presidents assassinated (McKinley, JFK), three nearly assassinated (TR while running as ex-Pres in 1912, FDR while Pres-elect, Truman, Ford, Reagan who was seriously wounded) and two others seriously incapacitated (Wilson, Eisenhower) at some point.

    Also note the widely-publicized albeit under-reported health problems of FDR and JFK.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dead Republican brothel owner. Mmm, I wonder who could have written that thread header?

    I would never pay to have soulless, rubber-insulated sex with a dead Republican.
    You've not met my wife.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    Tory Minister suggesting we will with hindsight view this all as a great success like the olympics. How sick is that?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited October 2020
    Told you earlier on today to back Aston Villa to win this because of Adrian.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    dixiedean said:

    OT already, but anyone know if and when we will have any data for today?
    Oh. And that's you that is.

    I think we may need to adjust to evening updates because they have to wait for 100s of universities to send in data.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Scott_xP said:
    That's somebody who has never been to Blackpool.
    There’s an integrity about Blackpool souvenirs wholly absent from Trump’s White House.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Dead Republican brothel owner. Mmm, I wonder who could have written that thread header?

    I would never pay to have soulless, rubber-insulated sex with a dead Republican.
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dead Republican brothel owner. Mmm, I wonder who could have written that thread header?

    I would never pay to have soulless, rubber-insulated sex with a dead Republican.
    Pontification Alert:

    Must say THIS is the kind of nitpickery that diminishes rather than enlightens.

    Anybody with a brain knows what that thread header means - saying that it REALLY means fucking dead GOPers is too clever by (at least) half.

    Getting to the substance as opposed to the fluff, reason that dead politicos remain on American election ballots, is because there is typically way more than just ONE office up for election (or nomination) on each ballot. Plus ballot questions in many jurisdictions.

    Also, while some offices are local by districts (of various levels of composition & complexity) others are statewide. AND almost everywhere elections - including ballots - are administered by local jurisdictions (counties, cities, townships).

    Thus the typical UK solution of simply postponing the election until new candidate is selected is NOT a realistic option.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    That's somebody who has never been to Blackpool.
    There’s an integrity about Blackpool souvenirs wholly absent from Trump’s White House.
    So Blackpool tat trumps, Trump tat?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    Wasn’t there an Australian election where they re-elected the mayor whose death had caused the election in the first place?
  • Might as well give Everton the title now.
  • David Cameron has just Tweeted that West Ham are beating Liverpool.
  • matthiasfromhamburgmatthiasfromhamburg Posts: 957
    edited October 2020

    FPT - re the Spreader-in-Chief himself contracting COVID-19 (the Crud has the Crud and visa versa) methinks that PB Brits are thinking in terms of Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his predecessors (and successors) esp. the sickly ones.

    When the proper comparison for any US President (even our current Fearless Leader) is NOT with any PM, but rather with the Queen, and previous/future UK monarchs.

    In America, the President is NEVER just a VIP = Very Important Person. She or he is ALWAYS the MIP = Most Important Person.

    In monarchies, the health of the sovereign is ALWAY a major matter of state, both for it's immediate effects and (perhaps even more so) for the potential & actual impact on succession of the crown.

    Same in USA, except of course with limited terms most presidents do NOT die in office.

    However, enough have expired on the job to make presidential health a MAJOR preoccupation.

    Starting with the demise of William Henry Harrison in 1841 just a month into his first (and obviously only) term. Which launched a MAJOR political crisis. Soon followed by the death in office of yet another president, Zachary Taylor, on the eve of another critical moment in American politics (resulting in Compromise of 1850).

    These untimely vacancies got the ball rolling, and the assassination of Abraham Lincoln kicked it far down the field. Followed in fairly short order by the assassinations of James Garfield and William McKinley.

    Note that in the last two cases, presidential demise was prolonged (not the case previously) which increased public concern. Also, in both instances the victims were ill-served by the team of eminent doctors in attendance - very similar to the experience of George III and some other British monarchs.

    So American preoccupation with the health of their presidents was WELL established by the dawn of the 20th century. A century that saw two presidents assassinated (McKinley, JFK), three nearly assassinated (TR while running as ex-Pres in 1912, FDR while Pres-elect, Truman, Ford, Reagan who was seriously wounded) and two others seriously incapacitated (Wilson, Eisenhower) at some point.

    Also note the widely-publicized albeit under-reported health problems of FDR and JFK.

    MIP almost understates it. The American President is an icon. He is the pontifex of the cult of Americanism.

    The messaging of the Trumpmachine has been consistent and will presumably remain so, whichever way things may develop:
    "He is fighting the fight for all of us, every single one around the world. All Hail the Orange Jesus!"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
  • How the feck is that not a penalty?
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,178
    A nugget from PPP Polling in the US that whereas previously they noted in their private polling that 6-8% of 2016 Trump voters had shifted to Biden, that's moved to 10-12% in recent days. If that was in anyway reflected nationally 6-8% would be enough but 10-12%? Over.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
  • ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    Curse of the new thread. He's drawn an interesting equivalence. I always said Arsene Wenger should have sued Man Utd for the chants by their vile supporters.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    Although for the sake of PB, not linking to any of his tweets at any time would be a good idea. They add nothing to the debate and really only show how, ummmm, unusual his views are.
  • Oh dear. Kind of regret taking the piss out of United now.
  • Question: will the decisions made by Betfair in recent days have any significant impact upon political betting in general and BF in particular?

    2nd Question: what is estimate of % of PBers who actually bet, on politics and/or anything else.

    (Personally has been twenty years plus since I've made a political or any other bet beyond the odd raffle ticket.)
  • Isnt this why people love the EPL, the big teams can get beat by small region ones....
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    Without linking to the offending content, one rather suspects Fox is trying to provoke a high profile libel suit, which will play into his hands and boost the profile of him and his nascent party.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Greahlish has been an inspired purchase for my FF team.
  • tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    Curse of the new thread. He's drawn an interesting equivalence. I always said Arsene Wenger should have sued Man Utd for the chants by their vile supporters.
    He should have sued the journalists as well that kept that vile rumour going.
  • novanova Posts: 525

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    The guy has gone full Katie Hopkins far too early.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461

    David Cameron has just Tweeted that West Ham are beating Liverpool.

    Very good. Short, not polemical and witty. Perhaps a style for you to adopt more in future?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited October 2020
    moonshine said:

    Without linking to the offending content, one rather suspects Fox is trying to provoke a high profile libel suit, which will play into his hands and boost the profile of him and his nascent party.

    A certain Mr Tolstoy tried that once. It didn’t end especially well for him, a very dishonest Wikipedia entry he jealously guards notwithstanding.

    Admittedly he ended by swindling the person he’d defamed too, but that’s another story.

    The same could be said of Irving, or perhaps Archer.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    I suspect his financial backing will dry up and he'll be back to begging for money on Patreon soon.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    edited October 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Oh dear.

    If you are tired and emotional, it's probably best to avoid Twitter.

    This reminds of Katie Hopkins, only... ummm... even more foolish.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited October 2020
    FYI, the claim trump / the white house are selling the tacky coins is fake. Apparently the "white house giftshop" website is a private business with no relationship to the administration.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,272
    nova said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    The guy has gone full Katie Hopkins far too early.
    I’d rather not look, but who is he libelling today?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    OnboardG1 said:

    nova said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    The guy has gone full Katie Hopkins far too early.
    I’d rather not look, but who is he libelling today?
    Well, it might be shorter to say who he’s *not* libelling today.
  • ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Just out of curiosity, can you be done for libel for accusing someone for being a racist? Or is it just an opinion that doesn't need to be backed up?
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,272
    ydoethur said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nova said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    The guy has gone full Katie Hopkins far too early.
    I’d rather not look, but who is he libelling today?
    Well, it might be shorter to say who he’s *not* libelling today.
    Oh. Full Chernobyl.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    I suspect his financial backing will dry up and he'll be back to begging for money on Patreon soon.
    I really can’t see what the point of his political party is. Nor why so many people would give it so much money (if true). They’ll surely lose it all.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    Was thinking similarly. There seems to be tendency from some teachers to oppose school.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979

    FPT - re the Spreader-in-Chief himself contracting COVID-19 (the Crud has the Crud and visa versa) methinks that PB Brits are thinking in terms of Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his predecessors (and successors) esp. the sickly ones.

    When the proper comparison for any US President (even our current Fearless Leader) is NOT with any PM, but rather with the Queen, and previous/future UK monarchs.

    In America, the President is NEVER just a VIP = Very Important Person. She or he is ALWAYS the MIP = Most Important Person.

    In monarchies, the health of the sovereign is ALWAY a major matter of state, both for it's immediate effects and (perhaps even more so) for the potential & actual impact on succession of the crown.

    Same in USA, except of course with limited terms most presidents do NOT die in office.

    However, enough have expired on the job to make presidential health a MAJOR preoccupation.

    Starting with the demise of William Henry Harrison in 1841 just a month into his first (and obviously only) term. Which launched a MAJOR political crisis. Soon followed by the death in office of yet another president, Zachary Taylor, on the eve of another critical moment in American politics (resulting in Compromise of 1850).

    These untimely vacancies got the ball rolling, and the assassination of Abraham Lincoln kicked it far down the field. Followed in fairly short order by the assassinations of James Garfield and William McKinley.

    Note that in the last two cases, presidential demise was prolonged (not the case previously) which increased public concern. Also, in both instances the victims were ill-served by the team of eminent doctors in attendance - very similar to the experience of George III and some other British monarchs.

    So American preoccupation with the health of their presidents was WELL established by the dawn of the 20th century. A century that saw two presidents assassinated (McKinley, JFK), three nearly assassinated (TR while running as ex-Pres in 1912, FDR while Pres-elect, Truman, Ford, Reagan who was seriously wounded) and two others seriously incapacitated (Wilson, Eisenhower) at some point.

    Also note the widely-publicized albeit under-reported health problems of FDR and JFK.

    MIP almost understates it. The American President is an icon. He is the pontifex of the cult of Americanism.

    The messaging of the Trumpmachine has been consistent and will presumably remain so, whichever way things may develop:
    "He is fighting the fight for all of us, every single one around the world. All Hail the Orange Jesus!"
    I see he is looking less orange. No sunlamp available or is it makeup? His hair is looking greyer as well.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    I suspect his financial backing will dry up and he'll be back to begging for money on Patreon soon.
    I really can’t see what the point of his political party is. Nor why so many people would give it so much money (if true). They’ll surely lose it all.
    Well to the first question, it’s a big ego trip for him isn’t it. To the second? Pass.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    Was thinking similarly. There seems to be tendency from some teachers to oppose school.
    There’s a much more frequent tendency for some people to believe they understand education because they had one. Exhibit A - Mr Cummings.

    I’m perfectly content to be putting the welfare of children ahead of the opinions of such snobs.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071
    OnboardG1 said:

    nova said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    The guy has gone full Katie Hopkins far too early.
    I’d rather not look, but who is he libelling today?
    He is really going for it. By it I mean suicide by lawyer!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    I'd be surprised if Lindsey Graham is actually in trouble in South Carolina, but his opponent (rather unexciting 'sexting' aside) is quite impressive:

    https://twitter.com/AlexMohajer/status/1312563570240962560
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,576
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Apropos of nothing, is there an insanity defence for libel ?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    Not sure even well heated rooms do much good if you're deliberately creating draughts of cold air.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    I'd be surprised if Lindsey Graham is actually in trouble in South Carolina, but his opponent (rather unexciting 'sexting' aside) is quite impressive:

    https://twitter.com/AlexMohajer/status/1312563570240962560

    Wrong Carolina.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    Dumb question but is it possible to get heat curtains for the windows/doors? They're not that pricy (normally at least) and can do a good job.

    It seems like a reasonable thing the government could give a grant for if people are expected to keep the windows/doors open.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Apropos of nothing, is there an insanity defence for libel ?
    His defence is presumably that his "accusation" can only be taken literally if he personally accepts he is racist.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    rcs1000 said:

    I'd be surprised if Lindsey Graham is actually in trouble in South Carolina, but his opponent (rather unexciting 'sexting' aside) is quite impressive:

    https://twitter.com/AlexMohajer/status/1312563570240962560

    The sexting was North Carolina wasn't it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071
    Another instance of how death in campaign was managed was the interesting Three Governors controversy in Georgia, a Governor being a closer parallel to President, with 3 rival contenders, the third being Talmadges son as a write in candidate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Governors_controversy
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited October 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    Dumb question but is it possible to get heat curtains for the windows/doors? They're not that pricy (normally at least) and can do a good job.

    It seems like a reasonable thing the government could give a grant for if people are expected to keep the windows/doors open.
    The honest answer is I don’t know, but it seems a possibility well worth considering. I’ll put it up to my union rep. Thank you.

    The other urgent change is to ban ethanol sanitiser and make sure it’s high-quality stuff only. (It’s not even as though it’s that much more expensive.)
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    edited October 2020
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    Although for the sake of PB, not linking to any of his tweets at any time would be a good idea. They add nothing to the debate and really only show how, ummmm, unusual his views are.
    I am not sure Laurence Fox's views are that unusual. Leaving aside the presumably defamatory tweets, his Twitter feed is not that far from social media posted by mainstream Conservative Party members these days. It's full-on culture war.
  • tlg86 said:

    Just out of curiosity, can you be done for libel for accusing someone for being a racist? Or is it just an opinion that doesn't need to be backed up?

    Yes, but the bar is pretty high.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    Dumb question but is it possible to get heat curtains for the windows/doors? They're not that pricy (normally at least) and can do a good job.

    It seems like a reasonable thing the government could give a grant for if people are expected to keep the windows/doors open.
    The honest answer is I don’t know, but it seems a possibility well worth considering. I’ll put it up to my union rep. Thank you.
    You're welcome. Hope it helps!
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Actually this isn't a totally ridiculous justification for what's been going on. Far better than the others anyway.

    This from WH communications director Alyssa Farah feels important. The briefings have not just been about Trump wanting Dr. Conley to paint rosy picture - it is about reassuring the president himself.

    A panicked patient, one who is possibly quite sick, could impact treatment pic.twitter.com/lA2ARYWaZg

    — Jonathan Lemire (@JonLemire) October 4, 2020
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited October 2020
    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
    Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.

    Edit - there’s a little more here:

    https://www.tes.com/magazine/article/teachers-are-struggling-no-government-support
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited October 2020
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
    Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
    Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    Although for the sake of PB, not linking to any of his tweets at any time would be a good idea. They add nothing to the debate and really only show how, ummmm, unusual his views are.
    I am not sure Laurence Fox's views are that unusual. Leaving aside the presumably defamatory tweets, his Twitter feed is not that far from social media posted by mainstream Conservative Party members these days. It's full-on culture war.
    What's a mainstream Conservative Party member?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
    Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
    Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
    Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,272
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally @TSE I did go and look at Fox’s twitter feed. Bloody hell. I hope his lawyers will be able to think of a phenomenally good excuse for what he’s just tweeted.

    Indeed, in case anyone missed it on the previous thread, for the sake of Mike links to Laurence Fox's tweets are a no no for the time being.
    Although for the sake of PB, not linking to any of his tweets at any time would be a good idea. They add nothing to the debate and really only show how, ummmm, unusual his views are.
    I am not sure Laurence Fox's views are that unusual. Leaving aside the presumably defamatory tweets, his Twitter feed is not that far from social media posted by mainstream Conservative Party members these days. It's full-on culture war.
    See Patel's slightly unhinged conference speech announcing nothing but that she doesn't like lefties today. The thing is, I don't think Brits are up for it really. You need two sides to play at culture-war, which is why Brexit was so effective, being near as dammit a 50 50 split. This is more like 70-30 stuff, where the 30% of inveterate ranters rant, while the 70% mostly don't care. We've had four exhausting years of culture war. Most people just want the news to go back to being something we listen to at 5pm and is a bit boring.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
    Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
    Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
    Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
    I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    OnboardG1 said:

    See Patel's slightly unhinged conference speech announcing nothing but that she doesn't like lefties today.

    https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1312775610637447168
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
    Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
    Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
    Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
    I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
    Thank you for another practical suggestion, which I will also put forward.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071
    edited October 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    See Patel's slightly unhinged conference speech announcing nothing but that she doesn't like lefties today.

    https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1312775610637447168
    I think that what is intended is to leave the refugee and asylum convention
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,536
    alex_ said:

    Actually this isn't a totally ridiculous justification for what's been going on. Far better than the others anyway.

    This from WH communications director Alyssa Farah feels important. The briefings have not just been about Trump wanting Dr. Conley to paint rosy picture - it is about reassuring the president himself.

    A panicked patient, one who is possibly quite sick, could impact treatment pic.twitter.com/lA2ARYWaZg

    — Jonathan Lemire (@JonLemire) October 4, 2020
    Trump has access to a tv and the internet so surely would know then things are being spun if the WH communications director puts out this statement . So I can’t see how this helps .
  • alex_ said:

    Maybe this is the Republican dream scenario? A dead Donald Trump propelled to victory on the back of a sympathy vote, which instinctively anti-Trump Republicans will have no problems with?

    Not much evidence of ANY sympathy vote for President, leastways as a mass phenomenon.

    About only instance that comes to mind, is public reaction to failed assassination attempt against former President Theodore Roosevelt during his 1912 "Bull Moose" presidential campaign.

    TR was shot by a less-than-fully sane former bartender who held him personally responsible for the assassination of William McKinley, which propelled him into the White House in the first place. Fortunately the bullet was partly deflected Roosevelt's spectacles case and his folded up speech.

    Which insisted on delivering, speaking over half an hour - despite pleas from his entourage and the audience that he head for the hospital ASAP - making a point of defending the rights of workers and absolving labor from the attack against him. AND also demonstrating his fabled determination, luck, toughness and sheer bloody (or rather bully) willpower.

    This happened about three weeks IIRC before Election Day. Before the advent of scientific polling, but no real doubt as to almost certain victory for Woodrow Wilson and the Democrats (after 16 years in the political wilderness) over the Republicans split between incumbent William Howard Taft and former Pres. and current insurgent TR.

    In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, journos, politicos and pundits across the US detected a strong surge of feeling in Roosevelt's favor, with even strong opponents expressing both concern and admiration far beyond the merely pro forma. Some said it was affecting their votes, and more sensed this trend among their neighbors.

    Clearly this rise in what we'd say today was TR's approval rating, was NOT just tea & sympathy. It was FAR more respect and appreciate for his strength and quality of character.

    By Election Day, TR's surge had subsided somewhat; he ended up running second versus Wilson, but surpassing his former protege Taft. And with many a man who voted against him wishing that they could have voted in good conscious for such a goddamn glorious SOB.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,933
    edited October 2020
    A week is a long time in politics and headlines:

    Chopper's Politics: Laurence Fox's views are 'core Tory values', says party's co-chairman
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/10/01/choppers-politics-laurence-foxs-views-core-tory-values-says/

    ETA hat-tip to the Youtube algorithm for recommending the Tory co-chair's musings.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    @DavidL I’m thinking of going to Edinburgh with my girlfriend for a weekend break. Is it worth going at the moment? Is anything open?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_xP said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    See Patel's slightly unhinged conference speech announcing nothing but that she doesn't like lefties today.

    https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1312775610637447168
    Isn't the argument that they've already entered one country illegally, and should be claiming asylum there. The convention doesn't let you go from country to country until you've got to somewhere you like.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071

    A week is a long time in politics and headlines:

    Chopper's Politics: Laurence Fox's views are 'core Tory values', says party's co-chairman
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/10/01/choppers-politics-laurence-foxs-views-core-tory-values-says/

    They may still be...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
    Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
    Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
    Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
    I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
    Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    @DavidL I’m thinking of going to Edinburgh with my girlfriend for a weekend break. Is it worth going at the moment? Is anything open?

    It's worth going if nothing is open ( unless the weather is really bad...)

    You can easily spend 2 days just wandering round
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    @DavidL I’m thinking of going to Edinburgh with my girlfriend for a weekend break. Is it worth going at the moment? Is anything open?

    So you’ve talked her out of Gretna?

    That’s a relief, it’s been on my conscience.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2020
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
    Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.

    Edit - there’s a little more here:

    https://www.tes.com/magazine/article/teachers-are-struggling-no-government-support
    I was aware that doors and windows were open but I assumed precautions would be in place (like heat curtains) to ensure rooms were not wet and freezing. Due to the virus I've not been in the classroom this academic year so I've not seen it, had no complaints from the girls though.

    I always say never assume, but here I just assumed a solution would have been implemented over the summer. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    I've worked in venues before where the door is kept open all day long, except exceptionally bad weather - and appropriate precautions were done so we were never working in wet and freezing conditions.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    Scott_xP said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    See Patel's slightly unhinged conference speech announcing nothing but that she doesn't like lefties today.

    https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1312775610637447168
    Scott_xP said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    See Patel's slightly unhinged conference speech announcing nothing but that she doesn't like lefties today.

    https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1312775610637447168
    It is a little disconcerting. When Priti becomes Fuhrer, people of my political persuasion will be in big trouble.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,243
    edited October 2020
    nico679 said:

    alex_ said:

    Actually this isn't a totally ridiculous justification for what's been going on. Far better than the others anyway.

    This from WH communications director Alyssa Farah feels important. The briefings have not just been about Trump wanting Dr. Conley to paint rosy picture - it is about reassuring the president himself.

    A panicked patient, one who is possibly quite sick, could impact treatment pic.twitter.com/lA2ARYWaZg

    — Jonathan Lemire (@JonLemire) October 4, 2020
    "Trump has access to a tv and the internet so surely would know then things are being spun if the WH communications director puts out this statement . So I can’t see how this helps ."

    The Trumpsky White House is the most incompetent coterie assembled since the demise of the Gong Show.

    So zero need to wonder when a WH source says something transparently self-serving AND mind-numbingly stupid.

    Cause that's just the way they fly these days at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,272

    @DavidL I’m thinking of going to Edinburgh with my girlfriend for a weekend break. Is it worth going at the moment? Is anything open?

    Yes, although you might want to be a little wary. The SG has been making noises about additional restrictions, so you might arrive in Edinburgh and end up with a bunch of closed pubs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    One i think question that needs to be addressed at the scientists/govt at some point is this:

    There is speculation that at some point (whether it's already happened to some extent or in the future) the virus will reduce in general harmfulness - either because it will mutate into a less harmful form or because treatment will improve so that the relative risk compared to other illnesses will not be obvious. It will just be one illness among many in the national picture of illnesses and deaths.

    As long as the focus of government policy is largely on case numbers alone, how would they be able to adjust to this? Or can we be confident that they are actually doing serious research into whether Covid continues, or will continue, to be a unique illness for which the economy and other health outcomes must be compromised for.

    Early in the pandemic data on excess deaths was highly useful in showing just how harmful Covid was. But at some point we will probably have to accept Covid is here to say in which case excess deaths figures/deaths caused by Covid are no longer relevant. We don't generally consider flu deaths as 'excess' in comparison to a world in which flu doesn't exist.

    There is no evidence that the virus has mutated into a milder form. This is common wishful thinking.

    The reason that the latest rise in infections (the actual rise, as shown by the ONS survey) had not caused a propionate increase in deaths is that the demographic of those infected has changed massively.

    Before, the very elderly were massively over represented. Now it is the younger cohorts. Though there are some worrying indications at the edges of the stats that could indicate the profile is going to change again. This latter issue is the worry across Europe - the new wave is currently not especially deadly. But if the profile moves to the elderly.....
    Also, most CV19 infections were previously undiagnosed.
    I’m wondering how long it will be before it goes rampaging through schools. The measures the government has put in place are ridiculous. In fact, if half of children are not suffering from pneumonia and severe dermatitis as a result of them by the end of November I shall be very surprised.
    It's a good question. However it is worth remembering that in Sweden, schools weren't a massive transmission vector.
    An even better reason not to force them to sit in wet and freezing classrooms and smother their hands in cheap sanitiser based on ethanol.

    The regulations run the very real risk of having serious lifelong consequences of their own.
    Wet and freezing classrooms?

    My daughter's school the children are in the same classes as normal. What's being done at yours?
    All windows and doors open.
    Oh for ventillation. I see.
    Which is logical - but doesn’t work too well when not all the classrooms have heating and even where they do it isn’t very efficient.
    It will kill people.
    That’s the worry I have. At this moment, the regulations are looking more dangerous to more people than Covid. Pneumonia is no joke. And dermatitis at that age can have serious lifelong consequences.

    Which means either we keep up with this and have serious damage - or abandon it, and have Covid run riot.

    I will admit, I don’t know what the easy answer to that is, but B may end up being the lower risk option.

    And that’s said in the full awareness it’s a nasty and highly infectious illness with grave long-term consequences.
    Are the parents fully aware of the conditions of the classrooms their kids are being taught in?
    Yes, although I’m interested that Philip Thompson thinks his daughter isn’t being taught in these conditions. So either his school is not following the regulations, or he’s not being told the truth.
    Surely the windows have to be shut if it's raining? Another point of course is that aren't there laws about minimum room temperatures in working and/or school environments? 16 degrees from memory, and everybody has to be sent home by law?
    Unfortunately, the HSE have apparently decided Covid trumps that law.
    I don't know how practical it is do this. Measure the CO2 ppm inside and outside the classroom. As long as the difference is not huge you have decent ventilation.
    Is this actually the HSE or is it some hi-viz-and-clipboard-napoleon? 99 times out of 100 this kid of stuff resolves down to the later - abusing Health and Safety in the name of Being In Charge Of Making Stuff Up.
    It’s the HSE. We were inspected by them and ordered to tighten procedures.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Jim Carrey makes his debut as Joe Biden on SNL against Alec Baldwin's President Trump

    https://twitter.com/nbcsnl/status/1312608341491953664?s=20
This discussion has been closed.