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In March 92% of CON members thought Johnson was handling the COVID19 crisis well – that’s now down t

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's a disaster. Very bad news for everyone there.
    Yes, it's bad news indeed.
    It’s not total lockdown

    Back in Madrid, the Madrid Hostelería association regrets the "imminent" closure of the premises at 11 pm due to the new measures approved, as there were "thousands of reservations" planned for today: "We do not understand how it has been possible to proceed with such an immediate closure, with just hours, and there are thousands of reservations for tonight, which can mean more than 8 million euros just today ", says the president of the association, Juan José Blardony

    It’s mainly travel restrictions and limiting night time socializing, still to be challenged in the courts.
    OK, thanks.
    11pm...
    11pm in Madrid is like 8pm anywhere else
    Make like 6pm in London - from when I was there. a lot of places were just getting started. Dead at 10pm. Everyone seemed to go home, have a kip and then go out.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Barnesian said:

    My book

    Red on Michelle? Bold.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sky News: Trump weighs 17.5 stones.

    Similar to the PM.
    Though maybe 8 inches taller?
    And quite a bit older.
    There is NO WAY that Boris Johnson weighs as much as Donald Trump. That cannot be.
  • Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    Yup, all the Betfair markets are up but all unmatched money was cancelled.

    Sigh.

    Trump not finishing his first term is still suspended.
    I believe that it is illegal to bet on someone's death? I think that Alastair Meeks did a header on this some time back.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    .
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sky News: Trump weighs 17.5 stones.

    Hope this will be a daily update from them. Transparency is important here.
    Are you expecting wild fluctuations in his weight, then?
    Or height.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    Here's another great one. It cannot have been an example scenario because it did not progress per the example?
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1312066770547757057
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Scott_xP said:

    Now Barrett getting COVID could be a true game changer - would presumably mean she could not be confirmed before the election

    https://twitter.com/londonvinjamuri/status/1312070278869069825
    White House cluster event ?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604

    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    Yup, all the Betfair markets are up but all unmatched money was cancelled.

    Sigh.

    Trump not finishing his first term is still suspended.
    I believe that it is illegal to bet on someone's death? I think that Alastair Meeks did a header on this some time back.
    Yes but the bet isn't on his death, merely on him not finishing his first term.

    I have money on this, not because of his death, but I have taken the view that he will walk away rather than lose. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. He now has the perfect excuse.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    kle4 said:

    Here's another great one. It cannot have been an example scenario because it did not progress per the example?
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1312066770547757057

    Maybe the airing given to that chart by Hartley Brewer, Hodges et al, meant that it did its work in supressing R. Because actually cases were rising exponentially until last week and then stopped suddenly, in England.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2020
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    Re Supreme Court - even if Barrett doesn't get Covid there could still be a delay.

    eg Senate Judiciary Committee may be impacted and also full Senate. I think votes in Senate have to be in person - so all it would need would be for two or three Republican senators to get it to wipe out majority (assuming Collins and Murkowski stick to voting No).
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Alistair said:

    Barnesian said:

    My book

    Red on Michelle? Bold.
    Mine, apologies for the Clinton thing:

    Joe Biden
    £2,488.87
    Donald Trump
    -£2,780.59
    Kamala Harris
    £1,266.02
    Hillary Clinton
    £2,034.02
    Mike Pence
    £3,545.36
    Michelle Obama
    £1,266.02
    Michael Bloomberg
    £1,266.02
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    I personally still think the rule of 6 is working. Anecdotally my social circle is making it work because it's very easy to understand. 6 or less yes, 7 or more no.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited October 2020
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sky News: Trump weighs 17.5 stones.

    Hope this will be a daily update from them. Transparency is important here.
    Are you expecting wild fluctuations in his weight, then?
    Well exactly. It's a key metric when ill. We all know that.
  • Alistair said:

    Barnesian said:

    My book

    Red on Michelle? Bold.
    Not really sure why you'd want to be green on Pence but red on Trump but I guess at the prices it is just a throwaway fiver. If it were Biden who'd succumbed, then things would be more interesting. Remember it was Bernie Sanders who came second in the primaries, not Kamala Harris. Fortunately, we should never have to worry about this.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    FF43 said:
    There has been more collateral damage than necessary. Try Novichok next time 😷
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited October 2020
    The Economist`s election forecast has changed. Now only 10% chance of Trump win. 198 EVs.

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:
    There has been more collateral damage than necessary. Try Novichok next time 😷
    "First, do no harm."
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Last month I told my girlfriend she had better make me more cups of tea else I might consider dating Cheryl Cole AND Amanda Holden as well as her. Since then she has made me one extra cup of tea per week and I haven't been in contact with either of them
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    isam said:

    Last month I told my girlfriend she had better make me more cups of tea else I might consider dating Cheryl Cole AND Amanda Holden as well as her. Since then she has made me one extra cup of tea per week and I haven't been in contact with either of them

    Irrefutable.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Gosh, poor woman, I hope not. No-one should be blamed for passing on a virus without intent.

    I feel terribly sorry for her.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    isam said:
    And does she think a protocol is a kind of pill?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    MaxPB said:

    I personally still think the rule of 6 is working. Anecdotally my social circle is making it work because it's very easy to understand. 6 or less yes, 7 or more no.

    Six of us went to the pub and one of our other mates said he was on his way down to join us. One of my dopey mates asked the barmaid if it was ok for him to sit with us or not and she went "Lalalala I didn't hear that"
  • eek said:
    Arrhh the old he is actually strong as ox, got real determination, young for his age. Remember when people were saying Boris is dead fit because he likes a bike ride and the odd game of tennis.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Stocky said:

    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Gosh, poor woman, I hope not. No-one should be blamed for passing on a virus without intent.

    I feel terribly sorry for her.
    Burn her at the stake
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    isam said:

    Last month I told my girlfriend she had better make me more cups of tea else I might consider dating Cheryl Cole AND Amanda Holden as well as her. Since then she has made me one extra cup of tea per week and I haven't been in contact with either of them

    Well that's a relief.

    For Cheryl and Amanda.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    In recent days he certainly has added a new dimension to his 'Brexit Hard Man' self image.
    Grudgingly agreed.

    Baker does seem to have hidden depths, he comes across as decent guy (BLM, care homes) and not the monster of Remainer myth.

    I found myself agreeing with much of what he was saying on Sophy Ridge last weekend.

    There you go, there are two paragraphs I never thought I’d write.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited October 2020
    Sen. Lee, displaying "an abundance of caution"...
    (Note guy who shakes his hand, and then scratches his nose.)

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1312061668663361537
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Great news on Big Joe.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    isam said:

    Last month I told my girlfriend she had better make me more cups of tea else I might consider dating Cheryl Cole AND Amanda Holden as well as her. Since then she has made me one extra cup of tea per week and I haven't been in contact with either of them

    It's just a stonking analogy, isam, it really is.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    In recent days he certainly has added a new dimension to his 'Brexit Hard Man' self image.
    Grudgingly agreed.

    Baker does seem to have hidden depths, he comes across as decent guy (BLM, care homes) and not the monster of Remainer myth.

    I found myself agreeing with much of what he was saying on Sophy Ridge last weekend.

    There you go, there are two paragraphs I never thought I’d write.
    Bottom of the Betfair list... 69/1 for a fiver, bit disappointing
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    kle4 said:

    Here's another great one. It cannot have been an example scenario because it did not progress per the example?
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1312066770547757057

    I don't see why both can't be wrong. Yes i get the argument that it was just an illustration of what could happen if the virus doubled every 7 days, based on a carefully selected bit of data which showed the virus doubling over seven days - and "not a forecast" if we started taking the thing seriously. But does it stand up as a credible outcome if we didn't start taking it seriously? Given that there is little evidence of such a progression occurring anywhere in the world (or certainly during the so-called 'second wave'). And certainly not where figures weren't distorted by parallel increases in testing.

    The thing is that even if such a progression was possible, there is strong reason to suspect that people's individual actoions will self limit it of their own accord. There will be a group of society (mainly centred around the younger generations, possibly with little exposure to elderly relatives or the like) who may carry on but they may rapidly run out of people to infect as they allow it to circulate amongst themselves.

    But Whitty and Vallance were actually using the graph in part to agitate for tougher GOVERNMENT restrictions on people's liberties and right to choose - and in so doing agitate for measures which would severely impact on business and economic activity. And rumours are that what was implemented didn't come close to what they were asking for.

    Just saying "not a forecast" is to my mind, not acceptable as a way of asking for new restrictions. As a way of encouraging the general public to obey existing restrictions/guidelines - OK - but not as a way of seeking more.

    And really after 6-9 months we should have a right to expect something a bit more sophisticated from the scientists in charge and modelling the progress of the virus. As a minimum, a range of outcomes matched against a range of implemented restrictions, that will allow testing of models against reality. We should have some data to give reasonable expectations of the effect of wearing masks, or restricting household mixing, or limiting access to pubs, or opening schools or whatever.

    Because ultimately there are trade offs that need to be made between combatting the virus and combatting the economic downturn, the impact on education restrictions, the effect of limited access to wider healthcare etc. And decide on an acceptable level of risk from Covid, as set against the downsides of everything else.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131

    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    In recent days he certainly has added a new dimension to his 'Brexit Hard Man' self image.
    Grudgingly agreed.

    Baker does seem to have hidden depths, he comes across as decent guy (BLM, care homes) and not the monster of Remainer myth.

    I found myself agreeing with much of what he was saying on Sophy Ridge last weekend.

    There you go, there are two paragraphs I never thought I’d write.
    If nothing else, that he has also now sought to cause Boris trouble in parliament demonstrates he is a committed awkward squad member and was not one of those who was playing at it and would stop once his guy got the top job.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    Not if the SNP loses the by election to Labour thanks to Tory and LD tactical voting, that would be a huge boost to Unionists and a damaging blow to the Nationalists
    The former Rutherglen seat was held by the Tories from 1951 until falling to Labour at a by-election in early 1964.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    isam said:

    Stocky said:

    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Gosh, poor woman, I hope not. No-one should be blamed for passing on a virus without intent.

    I feel terribly sorry for her.
    Burn her at the stake
    Yes it feels like that doesn`t it. What a country!

    I heard the other day there was a serious suggestion at a North Devon village`s parish council meeting to paint crosses on the doors of vacant second-home houses so people would be warned to stay away from plague-ridden urbanites who had the effrontery to visit their own properties.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Wasn't there some suggestion earlier that she hasn't actually broken any laws. Or laws that were in place at the time of her actions?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited October 2020
    Another better view of the WH event.
    Lots of hugging going on:
    https://twitter.com/mattmfm/status/1312060939101929475
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    HYUFD said:

    Not if the SNP loses the by election to Labour thanks to Tory and LD tactical voting, that would be a huge boost to Unionists and a damaging blow to the Nationalists
    Dream on!

    No voter under a certain age, has ever heard of Labour in Scotland. And for everyone else their memories don't go back far enough to remember them.
    Labour did gain the seat in 2017 . This has to be one of their recovery hopes in Scotland.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:

    Here's another great one. It cannot have been an example scenario because it did not progress per the example?
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1312066770547757057

    I don't see why both can't be wrong. Yes i get the argument that it was just an illustration of what could happen if the virus doubled every 7 days, based on a carefully selected bit of data which showed the virus doubling over seven days - and "not a forecast" if we started taking the thing seriously. But does it stand up as a credible outcome if we didn't start taking it seriously?
    That, however reasonable, appears to be a different argument to the one Hodges and Brewer appear to be making though. Certainly in the selected tweets shown they appear to be angry at it as a poor forecast, rather than arguing that it was not credible enough to use illustratively.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited October 2020
    Nigelb said:
    This is a reasonably common definition of "technically", with the construct A is technically B. It means "I realise even slightly informed people know for a fact A has nothing to do with B but I will put it out there because I would like it to be so"
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    I personally still think the rule of 6 is working. Anecdotally my social circle is making it work because it's very easy to understand. 6 or less yes, 7 or more no.

    Six of us went to the pub and one of our other mates said he was on his way down to join us. One of my dopey mates asked the barmaid if it was ok for him to sit with us or not and she went "Lalalala I didn't hear that"
    What are the rules actually on sitting at a table in the pub with six people and communicating (at distance) with somebody on another table? I think this is the problem with the talk of "socialising". It would make a lot more sense if "socialising/mixing" were defined as entering somebody's personal space in a non-socially distanced way (and definitely if without a mask). So, to take an example from the other day, Gallowgate should be able to converse with as many fellow students on a one-to-one basis as he likes, as long as it is always at 2m distance (or 1m plus a mask) or whatever.
  • Nigelb said:

    Another better view of the WH event.
    Lots of hugging going on:
    twitter.com/mattmfm/status/1312060939101929475

    Pandemic, what pandemic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited October 2020
    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:
    This is a reasonably common definition of "technically", with the construct A is technically B. It means "I realise even slightly informed people know for a fact A has nothing to do with B but I will put it out there because I would like it to be so"
    That's more of an (incorrect) colloquialism than a definition.
    The latter would be:
    according to the facts or exact meaning of something; strictly.
    "technically, a nut is a single-seeded fruit"

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    kle4 said:

    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:

    Here's another great one. It cannot have been an example scenario because it did not progress per the example?
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1312066770547757057

    I don't see why both can't be wrong. Yes i get the argument that it was just an illustration of what could happen if the virus doubled every 7 days, based on a carefully selected bit of data which showed the virus doubling over seven days - and "not a forecast" if we started taking the thing seriously. But does it stand up as a credible outcome if we didn't start taking it seriously?
    That, however reasonable, appears to be a different argument to the one Hodges and Brewer appear to be making though. Certainly in the selected tweets shown they appear to be angry at it as a poor forecast, rather than arguing that it was not credible enough to use illustratively.
    Hence "both be wrong" ;)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Stocky said:

    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Gosh, poor woman, I hope not. No-one should be blamed for passing on a virus without intent.

    I feel terribly sorry for her.
    Me too. Ferrier was thoughtless rather than ill intentioned and she seems genuinely sorry. We all have to take the consequences of our actions but we don't all get pilloried in the harsh light of the media.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:

    Here's another great one. It cannot have been an example scenario because it did not progress per the example?
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1312066770547757057

    I don't see why both can't be wrong. Yes i get the argument that it was just an illustration of what could happen if the virus doubled every 7 days, based on a carefully selected bit of data which showed the virus doubling over seven days - and "not a forecast" if we started taking the thing seriously. But does it stand up as a credible outcome if we didn't start taking it seriously? Given that there is little evidence of such a progression occurring anywhere in the world (or certainly during the so-called 'second wave'). And certainly not where figures weren't distorted by parallel increases in testing.

    The thing is that even if such a progression was possible, there is strong reason to suspect that people's individual actoions will self limit it of their own accord. There will be a group of society (mainly centred around the younger generations, possibly with little exposure to elderly relatives or the like) who may carry on but they may rapidly run out of people to infect as they allow it to circulate amongst themselves.

    But Whitty and Vallance were actually using the graph in part to agitate for tougher GOVERNMENT restrictions on people's liberties and right to choose - and in so doing agitate for measures which would severely impact on business and economic activity. And rumours are that what was implemented didn't come close to what they were asking for.

    Just saying "not a forecast" is to my mind, not acceptable as a way of asking for new restrictions. As a way of encouraging the general public to obey existing restrictions/guidelines - OK - but not as a way of seeking more.

    And really after 6-9 months we should have a right to expect something a bit more sophisticated from the scientists in charge and modelling the progress of the virus. As a minimum, a range of outcomes matched against a range of implemented restrictions, that will allow testing of models against reality. We should have some data to give reasonable expectations of the effect of wearing masks, or restricting household mixing, or limiting access to pubs, or opening schools or whatever.

    Because ultimately there are trade offs that need to be made between combatting the virus and combatting the economic downturn, the impact on education restrictions, the effect of limited access to wider healthcare etc. And decide on an acceptable level of risk from Covid, as set against the downsides of everything else.
    Great post. Spot on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Great news on Big Joe.

    It's good news - but it will be several days before it can be said he's in the clear.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited October 2020
    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:

    Here's another great one. It cannot have been an example scenario because it did not progress per the example?
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1312066770547757057

    I don't see why both can't be wrong. Yes i get the argument that it was just an illustration of what could happen if the virus doubled every 7 days, based on a carefully selected bit of data which showed the virus doubling over seven days - and "not a forecast" if we started taking the thing seriously. But does it stand up as a credible outcome if we didn't start taking it seriously? Given that there is little evidence of such a progression occurring anywhere in the world (or certainly during the so-called 'second wave'). And certainly not where figures weren't distorted by parallel increases in testing.

    The thing is that even if such a progression was possible, there is strong reason to suspect that people's individual actoions will self limit it of their own accord. There will be a group of society (mainly centred around the younger generations, possibly with little exposure to elderly relatives or the like) who may carry on but they may rapidly run out of people to infect as they allow it to circulate amongst themselves.

    But Whitty and Vallance were actually using the graph in part to agitate for tougher GOVERNMENT restrictions on people's liberties and right to choose - and in so doing agitate for measures which would severely impact on business and economic activity. And rumours are that what was implemented didn't come close to what they were asking for.

    Just saying "not a forecast" is to my mind, not acceptable as a way of asking for new restrictions. As a way of encouraging the general public to obey existing restrictions/guidelines - OK - but not as a way of seeking more.

    And really after 6-9 months we should have a right to expect something a bit more sophisticated from the scientists in charge and modelling the progress of the virus. As a minimum, a range of outcomes matched against a range of implemented restrictions, that will allow testing of models against reality. We should have some data to give reasonable expectations of the effect of wearing masks, or restricting household mixing, or limiting access to pubs, or opening schools or whatever.

    Because ultimately there are trade offs that need to be made between combatting the virus and combatting the economic downturn, the impact on education restrictions, the effect of limited access to wider healthcare etc. And decide on an acceptable level of risk from Covid, as set against the downsides of everything else.
    Indeed, if it were not a forecast, what was its purpose, and was it a legitimate tool for that purpose?

    I think the criticism is that, no it was never a legitimate tool to any honest, evidence-based approach and was only ever a scaremongering tactic which serves only to further undermine the credibility of the government and its official scientists.

    Public messaging has gone from bad to goddamned awful. Not just in the UK, mind.

    PS And I say this very mindful of the fact that decision-making must take into account the costs of not doing anything.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Gosh, poor woman, I hope not. No-one should be blamed for passing on a virus without intent.

    I feel terribly sorry for her.
    Me too. Ferrier was thoughtless rather than ill intentioned and she seems genuinely sorry. We all have to take the consequences of our actions but we don't all get pilloried in the harsh light of the media.
    Drunk drivers who kill people are without exception thoughtless rather than ill intentioned, and genuinely sorry after the event.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The thing I don't understand was why Whitty and Velance used reported date rather than specimen date on the graph

    https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1312047036741677058?s=19
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited October 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Gosh, poor woman, I hope not. No-one should be blamed for passing on a virus without intent.

    I feel terribly sorry for her.
    Me too. Ferrier was thoughtless rather than ill intentioned and she seems genuinely sorry. We all have to take the consequences of our actions but we don't all get pilloried in the harsh light of the media.
    Drunk drivers who kill people are without exception thoughtless rather than ill intentioned, and genuinely sorry after the event.
    I realise that. There should be appropriate consequences, but they should be objective - the same for everyone in the same circumstances - and they should be fair. It is the hounding of Ms Ferrier by the media and the public that bothers me.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
      
    TimT said:

    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:

    Here's another great one. It cannot have been an example scenario because it did not progress per the example?
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1312066770547757057

    I don't see why both can't be wrong. Yes i get the argument that it was just an illustration of what could happen if the virus doubled every 7 days, based on a carefully selected bit of data which showed the virus doubling over seven days - and "not a forecast" if we started taking the thing seriously. But does it stand up as a credible outcome if we didn't start taking it seriously? Given that there is little evidence of such a progression occurring anywhere in the world (or certainly during the so-called 'second wave'). And certainly not where figures weren't distorted by parallel increases in testing.

    The thing is that even if such a progression was possible, there is strong reason to suspect that people's individual actoions will self limit it of their own accord. There will be a group of society (mainly centred around the younger generations, possibly with little exposure to elderly relatives or the like) who may carry on but they may rapidly run out of people to infect as they allow it to circulate amongst themselves.

    But Whitty and Vallance were actually using the graph in part to agitate for tougher GOVERNMENT restrictions on people's liberties and right to choose - and in so doing agitate for measures which would severely impact on business and economic activity. And rumours are that what was implemented didn't come close to what they were asking for.

    Just saying "not a forecast" is to my mind, not acceptable as a way of asking for new restrictions. As a way of encouraging the general public to obey existing restrictions/guidelines - OK - but not as a way of seeking more.

    And really after 6-9 months we should have a right to expect something a bit more sophisticated from the scientists in charge and modelling the progress of the virus. As a minimum, a range of outcomes matched against a range of implemented restrictions, that will allow testing of models against reality. We should have some data to give reasonable expectations of the effect of wearing masks, or restricting household mixing, or limiting access to pubs, or opening schools or whatever.

    Because ultimately there are trade offs that need to be made between combatting the virus and combatting the economic downturn, the impact on education restrictions, the effect of limited access to wider healthcare etc. And decide on an acceptable level of risk from Covid, as set against the downsides of everything else.
    Indeed, if it were not a forecast, what was its purpose, and was it a legitimate tool for that purpose?

    I think the criticism is that, no it was never a legitimate tool to any honest, evidence-based approach and was only ever a scaremongering tactic which serves only to further undermine the credibility of the government and its official scientists.

    Public messaging has gone from bad to goddamned awful. Not just in the UK, mind.

    PS And I say this very mindful of the fact that decision-making must take into account the costs of not doing anything.
    Yeah, and they cannot be proved wrong because if the outcome is less than their non-forecast it's because of the tightened policy, while if the outcome approaches or exceeds their non-forecast it shows how right they were whatever.
    As @Isam has been saying.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    I'm not sure if HYFUD has beaten me to it but Biden's lead has been cut with IBD / TIPP to 2.7% from 5.6% amongst likely voters with a poll that was conducted AFTER the Presidential debate....

    https://www.investors.com/news/joe-biden-lead-over-donald-trump-narrows-after-presidential-debate-ibd-tipp-poll/
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    MrEd said:

    I'm not sure if HYFUD has beaten me to it but Biden's lead has been cut with IBD / TIPP to 2.7% from 5.6% amongst likely voters with a poll that was conducted AFTER the Presidential debate....

    https://www.investors.com/news/joe-biden-lead-over-donald-trump-narrows-after-presidential-debate-ibd-tipp-poll/

    IBD/TIPP are rated A/B by 538. Interesting.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    FF43 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Gosh, poor woman, I hope not. No-one should be blamed for passing on a virus without intent.

    I feel terribly sorry for her.
    Me too. Ferrier was thoughtless rather than ill intentioned and she seems genuinely sorry. We all have to take the consequences of our actions but we don't all get pilloried in the harsh light of the media.
    Drunk drivers who kill people are without exception thoughtless rather than ill intentioned, and genuinely sorry after the event.
    I realise that. There should be appropriate consequences, but they should be objective - the same for everyone in the same circumstances - and they should be fair. It is the hounding of Ms Ferrier by the media and the public that bothers me.
    She comes across as unintelligent & she certainly deserves to be fined.

    I guess she set off on her journey pretty sure her test was going to come back negative. And then she panicked when she got the result.

    She was stupid & thoughtless. But, Margaret Ferrier does not deserve to be a human sacrifice.

    I actually find it unpleasantly creepy that Nicola Sturgeon keeps on calling Margaret Ferrier her friend.

    Like EMF, if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.

    It must be a very scary experience being Nicola Sturgeon's friend .... I guess, as Alex S & others have found out.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Some other debates from that poll (2016 in brackets):

    White voters 53% Trump - 42% Biden (54% - 39%)
    Hispanic voters 36.5% Trump - 60% Biden (28% - 66%)
    Black voters 15% Trump - 76% Biden
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Alistair said:

    The thing I don't understand was why Whitty and Velance used reported date rather than specimen date on the graph

    https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1312047036741677058?s=19

    That, the reporting day deaths graph and no time cut off for deaths have led me to believe that our top scientists are a bit data illiterate or are purposefully presenting a worse scenario, their hypothetical graph could also be either category.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,411
    More I think about it. This is Trump' s out if he wants it.
    Retire the undefeated Champion. And live out his days tweeting what Sleepy Joe ought to do from a "medical facility" overseas.
    And attempt to provoke a Civil War on the Dems watch.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,103
    edited October 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    The thing I don't understand was why Whitty and Velance used reported date rather than specimen date on the graph

    https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1312047036741677058?s=19

    That, the reporting day deaths graph and no time cut off for deaths have led me to believe that our top scientists are a bit data illiterate or are purposefully presenting a worse scenario, their hypothetical graph could also be either category.
    The day of announcement of death charts had to be a deliberate decision as all the conplete datasets were being made available in the same place / at same time. Just like now with the testing.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    MaxPB said:

    I personally still think the rule of 6 is working. Anecdotally my social circle is making it work because it's very easy to understand. 6 or less yes, 7 or more no.

    I take it Jeremy Corbyn is not in your social circle then.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    The thing I don't understand was why Whitty and Velance used reported date rather than specimen date on the graph

    https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1312047036741677058?s=19

    That, the reporting day deaths graph and no time cut off for deaths have led me to believe that our top scientists are a bit data illiterate or are purposefully presenting a worse scenario, their hypothetical graph could also be either category.
    The day of announcement of death charts had to be a deliberate decision as all the conplete datasets were being made available in the same place / at same time. Just like now with the testing.
    I actually sent a long and very ranty email uo PHE way back about this and set up a series of meetings about what they could be doing better to present the data, this is when the old dashboard was still the only data source and the Excel files were the way to get event date data and even that was only hospitals.
  • Has QAnon released some crazy conspiracy yet? Perhapd how the deep state deliberately infected Trump with COVID to stop him winning the election?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Has QAnon released some crazy conspiracy yet? Perhapd how the deep state deliberately infected Trump with COVID to stop him winning the election?

    There was something about all this is cover for Trump to go off the radar for a few days to make the final move on Clinton's secret cabal of baby eaters.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,594

    Has QAnon released some crazy conspiracy yet? Perhapd how the deep state deliberately infected Trump with COVID to stop him winning the election?

    It isn't a conspiracy to say that China should have stopped international travel as soon as the pandemic became apparent in Wuhan.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    Arrhh the old he is actually strong as ox, got real determination, young for his age. Remember when people were saying Boris is dead fit because he likes a bike ride and the odd game of tennis.

    Idiots, millions of them, all over the bloody place.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Be quite funny if GOP vote suppression tactics end up costing them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    I am sensing he is the new plato.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    Actually not because they not view him as racist. Their view is that the Democrats have treated the Black vote as cannon fodder for too long and are quite happy to keep Black people poor and impoverished to ensure that they keep their votes. When you look at places like Baltimore and Detroit, you can see their point. Also, there is a growing view that they do not want to be treated as victims.

    I know it goes against the consensus on this site but - from a betting perspective at least - you should be aware of it because it's a growing factor

  • MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    She'd better hurry up then.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    I am sensing he is the new plato.
    Ok, look I am quite happy to go back and sit in the shadows, and not comment. That's fine. But this is a betting website. There were plenty of people on here - and I think you were one of them - ramping up how we should all go on Biden after that debate because Trump was now toast. We now have the first poll after the debate that shows he has cut Biden's lead. For the sake of your bank balance alone, don't you think you should consider evidence that maybe goes against your views.

    For someone who appears to proclaim himself such a liberal, you seem an awfully narrow minded individual.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited October 2020
    @MaxPB I don’t see how you think the “rule of 6” is working, when the areas with the most infections have had to deploy “the rule of 0” in order to get the infection “under control”?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Andy_JS said:

    Has QAnon released some crazy conspiracy yet? Perhapd how the deep state deliberately infected Trump with COVID to stop him winning the election?

    It isn't a conspiracy to say that China should have stopped international travel as soon as the pandemic became apparent in Wuhan.
    Much like drug trafficking you are pretty happy to see carriers of a deadly virus leave your country.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    Actually not because they not view him as racist. Their view is that the Democrats have treated the Black vote as cannon fodder for too long and are quite happy to keep Black people poor and impoverished to ensure that they keep their votes. When you look at places like Baltimore and Detroit, you can see their point. Also, there is a growing view that they do not want to be treated as victims.

    I know it goes against the consensus on this site but - from a betting perspective at least - you should be aware of it because it's a growing factor

    Indeed.


    Earl Ofari Hutchinson: Trump’s flaws alone won’t bring skeptical Black voters out to vote for Biden

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/earl-ofari-hutchinson-trump-s-flaws-alone-won-t-bring-skeptical-black-voters-out-to-vote-for-biden/ar-BB19w7vy
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    She'd better hurry up then.
    :)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    Actually not because they not view him as racist. Their view is that the Democrats have treated the Black vote as cannon fodder for too long and are quite happy to keep Black people poor and impoverished to ensure that they keep their votes. When you look at places like Baltimore and Detroit, you can see their point. Also, there is a growing view that they do not want to be treated as victims.

    I know it goes against the consensus on this site but - from a betting perspective at least - you should be aware of it because it's a growing factor

    I have no problem with opposing views on this site, however implausible.

    All the evidence I see is that Trump is too short in the betting, and I think there is an underestimate of the possibility of a Biden landslide.

    I reckon Trump won't break 200 EV, and possibly substantially less.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    MrEd said:

    I'm not sure if HYFUD has beaten me to it but Biden's lead has been cut with IBD / TIPP to 2.7% from 5.6% amongst likely voters with a poll that was conducted AFTER the Presidential debate....

    https://www.investors.com/news/joe-biden-lead-over-donald-trump-narrows-after-presidential-debate-ibd-tipp-poll/

    IBD/TIPP are rated A/B by 538. Interesting.
    Which is truly astounding given their absolute guff they wrote about correctly predicting Trump's popular vote win in 2016

    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/ibdtipp-poll-nails-it-again/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,594
    "'How vile and evil to get joy from the suffering of others:' GMB viewers slam Dominic West for telling Kate Garraway he 'jumped for joy' over Trump's Covid diagnosis despite her husband Derek battling the disease"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8797681/GMB-viewers-slam-Dominic-West-jumping-joy-Trumps-coronavirus.html
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited October 2020
    Alistair said:

    MrEd said:

    I'm not sure if HYFUD has beaten me to it but Biden's lead has been cut with IBD / TIPP to 2.7% from 5.6% amongst likely voters with a poll that was conducted AFTER the Presidential debate....

    https://www.investors.com/news/joe-biden-lead-over-donald-trump-narrows-after-presidential-debate-ibd-tipp-poll/

    IBD/TIPP are rated A/B by 538. Interesting.
    Which is truly astounding given their absolute guff they wrote about correctly predicting Trump's popular vote win in 2016

    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/ibdtipp-poll-nails-it-again/
    If Biden is 4 points ahead on election night, it's an easy win for him.
  • kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sky News: Trump weighs 17.5 stones.

    Seems about right. Same as Johnson was, though he's a few inches taller than Johnson.
    Johnson wasn't 17.5 stones pre-virus, was he? That's hefty for a short man.
    It isn't that hefty. A lot of middle aged men will weigh that.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    Actually not because they not view him as racist. Their view is that the Democrats have treated the Black vote as cannon fodder for too long and are quite happy to keep Black people poor and impoverished to ensure that they keep their votes. When you look at places like Baltimore and Detroit, you can see their point. Also, there is a growing view that they do not want to be treated as victims.

    I know it goes against the consensus on this site but - from a betting perspective at least - you should be aware of it because it's a growing factor

    Indeed.


    Earl Ofari Hutchinson: Trump’s flaws alone won’t bring skeptical Black voters out to vote for Biden

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/earl-ofari-hutchinson-trump-s-flaws-alone-won-t-bring-skeptical-black-voters-out-to-vote-for-biden/ar-BB19w7vy
    That article nails it. Things like crime are a major issue for the Black community because they are the ones that tend to get impacted the most. Look at the recent murder rates in cities such as Chicago and Philly, they have gone through the roof.

    Biden is offering nothing to these voters, just a whole load of platitudes about BLM and systemic racism. It's like seeing your wages cut 10% and someone saying isn't it great GDP has risen 5%. All his talk means nothing to them on a day to day level.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MrEd said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    I am sensing he is the new plato.
    Ok, look I am quite happy to go back and sit in the shadows, and not comment. That's fine. But this is a betting website. There were plenty of people on here - and I think you were one of them - ramping up how we should all go on Biden after that debate because Trump was now toast. We now have the first poll after the debate that shows he has cut Biden's lead. For the sake of your bank balance alone, don't you think you should consider evidence that maybe goes against your views.

    For someone who appears to proclaim himself such a liberal, you seem an awfully narrow minded individual.

    Also, the point about Plato was that she predicted a Trump win this time four years ago. I hope nobody is the new her.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    Actually not because they not view him as racist. Their view is that the Democrats have treated the Black vote as cannon fodder for too long and are quite happy to keep Black people poor and impoverished to ensure that they keep their votes. When you look at places like Baltimore and Detroit, you can see their point. Also, there is a growing view that they do not want to be treated as victims.

    I know it goes against the consensus on this site but - from a betting perspective at least - you should be aware of it because it's a growing factor

    I have no problem with opposing views on this site, however implausible.

    All the evidence I see is that Trump is too short in the betting, and I think there is an underestimate of the possibility of a Biden landslide.

    I reckon Trump won't break 200 EV, and possibly substantially less.
    And that is fair enough. I can see an argument for that. There are a lot of people who hate his guts. I have said it before but I will repeat it, I have not bet yet because I have no idea how this will go and I can see a scenario where there is a sudden move to one candidate or another. But I can also see a scenario where - if IBD is in the right ballpark - states like NV, MN and maybe even VA come into play
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Alistair said:

    The thing I don't understand was why Whitty and Velance used reported date rather than specimen date on the graph

    https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1312047036741677058?s=19

    Because it looked more scary
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    Actually not because they not view him as racist. Their view is that the Democrats have treated the Black vote as cannon fodder for too long and are quite happy to keep Black people poor and impoverished to ensure that they keep their votes. When you look at places like Baltimore and Detroit, you can see their point. Also, there is a growing view that they do not want to be treated as victims.

    I know it goes against the consensus on this site but - from a betting perspective at least - you should be aware of it because it's a growing factor

    Indeed.


    Earl Ofari Hutchinson: Trump’s flaws alone won’t bring skeptical Black voters out to vote for Biden

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/earl-ofari-hutchinson-trump-s-flaws-alone-won-t-bring-skeptical-black-voters-out-to-vote-for-biden/ar-BB19w7vy
    That article nails it. Things like crime are a major issue for the Black community because they are the ones that tend to get impacted the most. Look at the recent murder rates in cities such as Chicago and Philly, they have gone through the roof.

    Biden is offering nothing to these voters, just a whole load of platitudes about BLM and systemic racism. It's like seeing your wages cut 10% and someone saying isn't it great GDP has risen 5%. All his talk means nothing to them on a day to day level.
    Trump offers them nothing PLUS a validation of white supremacists.

    I'd take the vanilla nothing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sky News: Trump weighs 17.5 stones.

    Seems about right. Same as Johnson was, though he's a few inches taller than Johnson.
    Johnson wasn't 17.5 stones pre-virus, was he? That's hefty for a short man.
    It isn't that hefty. A lot of middle aged men will weigh that.
    I don't think so. Not shortish ones.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    Actually not because they not view him as racist. Their view is that the Democrats have treated the Black vote as cannon fodder for too long and are quite happy to keep Black people poor and impoverished to ensure that they keep their votes. When you look at places like Baltimore and Detroit, you can see their point. Also, there is a growing view that they do not want to be treated as victims.

    I know it goes against the consensus on this site but - from a betting perspective at least - you should be aware of it because it's a growing factor

    Indeed.


    Earl Ofari Hutchinson: Trump’s flaws alone won’t bring skeptical Black voters out to vote for Biden

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/earl-ofari-hutchinson-trump-s-flaws-alone-won-t-bring-skeptical-black-voters-out-to-vote-for-biden/ar-BB19w7vy
    That article nails it. Things like crime are a major issue for the Black community because they are the ones that tend to get impacted the most. Look at the recent murder rates in cities such as Chicago and Philly, they have gone through the roof.

    Biden is offering nothing to these voters, just a whole load of platitudes about BLM and systemic racism. It's like seeing your wages cut 10% and someone saying isn't it great GDP has risen 5%. All his talk means nothing to them on a day to day level.
    Trump offers them nothing PLUS a validation of white supremacists.

    I'd take the vanilla nothing.
    To many of the Black voters considering Trump, the Democrats are not offering them a vanilla nothing, their view is they are offering them a continued world of rundown cities, rampant crime and broken families. Now, we may not think that sitting over there and having the luxury of being able to spend time on a political betting website but, having spent many a hour, in a fair few of the run-down LA neighbourhoods, I wouldn't wish that life on my worst enemy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    MrEd said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    I am sensing he is the new plato.
    Ok, look I am quite happy to go back and sit in the shadows, and not comment. That's fine. But this is a betting website. There were plenty of people on here - and I think you were one of them - ramping up how we should all go on Biden after that debate because Trump was now toast. We now have the first poll after the debate that shows he has cut Biden's lead. For the sake of your bank balance alone, don't you think you should consider evidence that maybe goes against your views.

    For someone who appears to proclaim himself such a liberal, you seem an awfully narrow minded individual.

    Please keep commenting, and ignore the Lefty morons.
  • FF43 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    FF43 said:

    Stocky said:

    jayfdee said:

    Scott_xP said:
    She should resign immediately, very soon someone from the house will test positive, and then someone from the train will test positive, and she will be blamed, regardless if she was the cause. Someone may well die, and she will be blamed.
    Police throw the book at her maximum fine.
    Gosh, poor woman, I hope not. No-one should be blamed for passing on a virus without intent.

    I feel terribly sorry for her.
    Me too. Ferrier was thoughtless rather than ill intentioned and she seems genuinely sorry. We all have to take the consequences of our actions but we don't all get pilloried in the harsh light of the media.
    Drunk drivers who kill people are without exception thoughtless rather than ill intentioned, and genuinely sorry after the event.
    I realise that. There should be appropriate consequences, but they should be objective - the same for everyone in the same circumstances - and they should be fair. It is the hounding of Ms Ferrier by the media and the public that bothers me.
    She comes across as unintelligent & she certainly deserves to be fined.

    I guess she set off on her journey pretty sure her test was going to come back negative. And then she panicked when she got the result.

    She was stupid & thoughtless. But, Margaret Ferrier does not deserve to be a human sacrifice.

    I actually find it unpleasantly creepy that Nicola Sturgeon keeps on calling Margaret Ferrier her friend.

    Like EMF, if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.

    It must be a very scary experience being Nicola Sturgeon's friend .... I guess, as Alex S & others have found out.
    Ferrier's behaviour is not just thoughtless; getting on to a train knowing you have Covid is like getting behind the wheel of a car when you know you are drunk. She had alternatives, however inconvenient. All MP's have London accommodation. I do think she has been selfishly culpable and I'm glad that the leader of her political party is clearly and publicly advising her to resign as an MP. Compare and contrast to Johnson and Cummings.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210
    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    It is worth remembering, though, that if

    - Black turnout is up 30%
    and
    - Trump doubles his share of the black vote to 18%

    Then Biden's absolute lead (in terms of number of votes) actually increases.

    91 - 9 = an 82 vote lead

    107 - 23 = an 84 vote lead
  • Andy_JS said:

    Has QAnon released some crazy conspiracy yet? Perhapd how the deep state deliberately infected Trump with COVID to stop him winning the election?

    It isn't a conspiracy to say that China should have stopped international travel as soon as the pandemic became apparent in Wuhan.
    Nobody else did. The Chinese responded more seriously than any western nation did.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,411
    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    Pew saying Black vote split 91-6 for Clinton.

    If those numbers are anywhere near the result, then - given the importance of the Black vote to the Democrats in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania, and the Hispanic vote in Arizona and Florida - Trump is likely to win the EC. You might even see places like NV being in play.

    I can - with difficulty - see how Trump's performance might have appealed to a segment of Hispanic voters who like the Strong Man leader. Not seeing any way that performance appealed to any section of the Black population.

    I will not read much into that poll until there are more post-debate polls. The only other recent poll I looked at had Biden increasing his lead, but that was an eve of debate poll, not post.
    Biden's "You Ain't Black" comment was a real game changer for a fair few Black Americans, particularly the younger ones. It didn't get talked about much but, since then, I've noticed more Black pro-Trump social media sites popping up

    (Note: Mrs Ed is a Black American. Has not voted Republican since 04. Voting for Trump this year).
    Presumably not bothered by Trump refusing to condemn white supremacists...
    I am sensing he is the new plato.
    Ok, look I am quite happy to go back and sit in the shadows, and not comment. That's fine. But this is a betting website. There were plenty of people on here - and I think you were one of them - ramping up how we should all go on Biden after that debate because Trump was now toast. We now have the first poll after the debate that shows he has cut Biden's lead. For the sake of your bank balance alone, don't you think you should consider evidence that maybe goes against your views.

    For someone who appears to proclaim himself such a liberal, you seem an awfully narrow minded individual.

    Also, the point about Plato was that she predicted a Trump win this time four years ago. I hope nobody is the new her.
    She didn't. ISTR She thought Hilary would probably win. She wanted Trump to win and thought his chances were being seriously underplayed.
    So maybe similar to Mr Ed who seems to fulfil the same role. As he said he hasn't bet yet.
This discussion has been closed.