Its cost me £5k, but I am so glad my eldest is spending 20/21 doing work experience in his old school and starting his English degree next year, rather than being imprisoned in a Manchester Met halls of residence being shouted at to remove posters from his windows.
MMU was a *very* impressive university and he seriously considered it. So glad we dodged that particular bullet...
Interesting not just because of how China tracks and traces, but also from frozen food (seafood?) as the source. I recall that being mooted as the cause of the fresh outbreak in NZ.
That is quite an impressive number. China must be using our "world beating" track and trace system.
They use pooled testing which speeds up the processing of mass testing like this considerably.
Can I check that I understand correctly what pooled testing means?
Do they combine all the samples from say 50 people, test (in this case) the 3560 pooled samples this gives (from 178,000 people), then test the 50 individuals in any pooled sample that tests positive?
A thought experiment. Many of the basic or long-standing legislative features of the U.K. originally came about as a consequence of “temporary” measures in time of war or national crisis. Some possible examples off the top of my head - Income tax (still, officially, a temporary measure!), daylight saving, I think the old pub licensing hours pre Blair reforms.
What changes, if any, in response to coronavirus (possibly yet to come...) do people think might do likewise in the UK?
The wealth tax that is coming along to pay for it all?
That just sends the super wealthy to Monaco and the Bahamas.
Under the cloak of Brexit inflation, stick 5% VAT on currently VAT free goods and 25% on everything else and it will go almost unnoticed.
Mrs Thatcher liked indirect taxation, we all pay and the poorest pay relatively more.
Why not adopt the US system of extraterritorial taxation of citizens?
Because it’s pretty much unenforceable in the vast majority of jurisdictions.
Biden won the nomination largely flying under the radar. It seems he’s using the same approach for the election. It seems he’s supported by some clever people.
Flying under the radar??? More like taxiing on the runway. The Dems are desperate to keep Sleepy Joe away from press conferences and Q&A sessions without Palin-like pre-scripted responses. This man is a ticking time-bomb for the Dems in the same way Palin wowed the GOP for a while and then became the biggest joke of US politics. The debates are round the corner and the Dems will be absolutely terrified he doesn't screw up. Even with 180 years political experience.
Republican behaviour over the Supreme Court nomination tells me they know they've lost the Presidency.
Yes, I think they accept that not only is the Presidency a goner but they could easily find themselves a minority in Senate. They are going therefore for the consolation of a super-majority in the Supreme Court. Polling suggests this is not a popular move and will cost votes but they obviously think it's worth the sacrifice.
I don't think Biden needs to be too worried about this. Not all conservatve judges are lickspittles and as long as they are seen to be supporting justice in preference to Party there will be no need for Biden to interfere. If however they obstruct the manifest will of the people in a political kind of way, he can always appoint a couple of extra judges. Two would do it, as Roberts seems independent minded anyway. Biden would need popular support as well as a Senate majority to achieve this but if we are talking about the likes of Roe v Wade being overturned, he's likely to have both.
Don't need Roe vs Wade. There is the repeal of the Affordable Care Act. In court right now and scheduled to take place just after the election (nt before because the GOP are cowards).
If they seat ACB pre election and then repeal the ACA (ACB has previously said she believes it to be unconstitutional) after Trump has lost the election that is all the justification the Dems will need to go full throttle. If the GOP have the chutzpath to confirm and seat ACB in the lame duck session and repeal the ACA then all bets are off as to the counter moves from the Dems.
Of course much will depend on the actual election results and how people behave in the aftermath. If it's a fairly clear Democrat win, which I am now expecting, any high-handed action by the Supreme Court will make a Biden counter very easy.
Interesting not just because of how China tracks and traces, but also from frozen food (seafood?) as the source. I recall that being mooted as the cause of the fresh outbreak in NZ.
That is quite an impressive number. China must be using our "world beating" track and trace system.
They use pooled testing which speeds up the processing of mass testing like this considerably.
Can I check that I understand correctly what pooled testing means?
Do they combine all the samples from say 50 people, test (in this case) the 3560 pooled samples this gives (from 178,000 people), then test the 50 individuals in any pooled sample that tests positive?
Yes - though it’s probably 10-20 rather than 50 at a time.
A thought experiment. Many of the basic or long-standing legislative features of the U.K. originally came about as a consequence of “temporary” measures in time of war or national crisis. Some possible examples off the top of my head - Income tax (still, officially, a temporary measure!), daylight saving, I think the old pub licensing hours pre Blair reforms.
What changes, if any, in response to coronavirus (possibly yet to come...) do people think might do likewise in the UK?
The wealth tax that is coming along to pay for it all?
That just sends the super wealthy to Monaco and the Bahamas.
Under the cloak of Brexit inflation, stick 5% VAT on currently VAT free goods and 25% on everything else and it will go almost unnoticed.
Mrs Thatcher liked indirect taxation, we all pay and the poorest pay relatively more.
Why not adopt the US system of extraterritorial taxation of citizens?
Because it’s pretty much unenforceable in the vast majority of jurisdictions.
Surely it is VERY enforceable if you return to the USA for any reason - like Grandma's funeral? You know the yanks - a parking ticket gets you 10 years in jail with no parole....
Good morning everyone; doesn't, from this side of the political divide, to be a lot to be cheerful amount. And the Bob Willis final could be going wrong, too. Although cricket's a funny old game.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
A thought experiment. Many of the basic or long-standing legislative features of the U.K. originally came about as a consequence of “temporary” measures in time of war or national crisis. Some possible examples off the top of my head - Income tax (still, officially, a temporary measure!), daylight saving, I think the old pub licensing hours pre Blair reforms.
What changes, if any, in response to coronavirus (possibly yet to come...) do people think might do likewise in the UK?
The wealth tax that is coming along to pay for it all?
That just sends the super wealthy to Monaco and the Bahamas.
Under the cloak of Brexit inflation, stick 5% VAT on currently VAT free goods and 25% on everything else and it will go almost unnoticed.
Mrs Thatcher liked indirect taxation, we all pay and the poorest pay relatively more.
Why not adopt the US system of extraterritorial taxation of citizens?
Because it’s pretty much unenforceable in the vast majority of jurisdictions.
Surely it is VERY enforceable if you return to the USA for any reason - like Grandma's funeral? You know the yanks - a parking ticket gets you 10 years in jail with no parole....
Indeed - the US govenrment doesn’t renew the passports of US citizens living overseas if they are behind with their taxes, or let them sponsor anyone for an immigrant visa (eg if they want to move their spouse).
Of course, the vast majority of US citizens don’t have to pay a cent anyway as tax is only due on income above about $100,000 anyway - though they still have to file tax returns.
Good morning everyone; doesn't, from this side of the political divide, to be a lot to be cheerful amount. And the Bob Willis final could be going wrong, too. Although cricket's a funny old game.
The game is splendidly poised, but fwiw I think Betfair's odds are a bit out. It should be 2/1 all three outcomes. The draw is therefore the value, and Essex are false favorites.
Worth a small punt? (And if Essex do win that's quite some consolation!)
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
The latter will never happen because on the whole landlords vote Tory.
The issue is that the unintended consequences of the former is that it will result in so many defaults, the courts will be completely blocked up with housing cases and students will get county court judgments in their thousands. All because someone in the government made the wrong decision (or worse, no decision) on what the plan was for university education this September.
Ah but it will help Conservatives to have all those students moving back home to the leafy suburbs and wasting their votes in seats where they weigh rather than count the blue vote, rather than having a concentrated lefty student vote in university towns.
Biden won the nomination largely flying under the radar. It seems he’s using the same approach for the election. It seems he’s supported by some clever people.
Flying under the radar??? More like taxiing on the runway. The Dems are desperate to keep Sleepy Joe away from press conferences and Q&A sessions without Palin-like pre-scripted responses. This man is a ticking time-bomb for the Dems in the same way Palin wowed the GOP for a while and then became the biggest joke of US politics. The debates are round the corner and the Dems will be absolutely terrified he doesn't screw up. Even with 180 years political experience.
You do remember he did like 50 live debates during the Dem Primaries?
I thought last orders at ten and remaining until one finishes, here in Wales was ridiculous, but maybe not so stupid after all. In England one can order five pints at 5 to 10 and have to consume them all in five minutes. Here in Wales one gets around an hour to finish their five for the road, after "stop tap".
Biden won the nomination largely flying under the radar. It seems he’s using the same approach for the election. It seems he’s supported by some clever people.
Flying under the radar??? More like taxiing on the runway. The Dems are desperate to keep Sleepy Joe away from press conferences and Q&A sessions without Palin-like pre-scripted responses. This man is a ticking time-bomb for the Dems in the same way Palin wowed the GOP for a while and then became the biggest joke of US politics. The debates are round the corner and the Dems will be absolutely terrified he doesn't screw up. Even with 180 years political experience.
I still can’t think of Sarah Palin without the mind immediately going to Tina Fey’s SNL skits. Her impression was spot on, and they do look very similar.
Biden won the nomination largely flying under the radar. It seems he’s using the same approach for the election. It seems he’s supported by some clever people.
Flying under the radar??? More like taxiing on the runway. The Dems are desperate to keep Sleepy Joe away from press conferences and Q&A sessions without Palin-like pre-scripted responses. This man is a ticking time-bomb for the Dems in the same way Palin wowed the GOP for a while and then became the biggest joke of US politics. The debates are round the corner and the Dems will be absolutely terrified he doesn't screw up. Even with 180 years political experience.
So key question: Some of the voters clearly believe what you just said. Are any of them up for grabs if he shows up at the debate and performs cogently rather than to delivering a lengthy tirade in the direction of the door knob on the failed policies of the Van Buren administration? Or is it only the Trumpists who believe this stuff, and they're with Trump no matter what?
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
The thing is, whilst i agree with the sentiments in relation to those at the 'extreme' end of the idiocy scale (and those who bully others into things they are not comfortable with) i absolutely disagree with defining 'idiocy' as those who are rebelling to some extent against some of the extreme interpretations of "self isolation" regulations that some Universities seem to be insisting on.
I'm not talking about preventing people from going to pubs, and generally interacting closely with large numbers of people around campus and beyond, but talk of no mixing at at, even within self isolation 'bubbles/groups' - which certainly isn't the law, even if partially reflective of some government guidelines. Cooking alone in the kitchens on a rota, eating alone in your room and spending days and weeks only emerging to wash and take food deliveries. This is not humane, and outside of care homes and where there are high risk individuals, won't be occurring in any other self isolating households in the country, where generally people will act on the basis that if one's got it they will all get it - and the priority is to avoid spreading it outside of the immediate vicinity.
A far better approach IMO would be tiered isolation IMO - those with clear symptoms/positive tests to be moved into specific accommodation until they are clear - but where they can mix safely with others also infected, whilst adopting looser quarantine provisions for those who may be close contacts of the proven cases. And also shifting vulnerable individuals out of potentially at risk accommodation.
Another separate issue of course - students don't have a lot of space to store food and supplies - and generally individual "stocking up" and taking up large amounts of space in fridges and freezers is discouraged. Much accommodation is set up assuming that most students will do a lot of eating out in university canteens and the like and generally from "on-the-day" purchases. Telling people to rely on supermarket deliveries or takeaways is not a sustainable solution - even for relatively short periods of isolation.
Also after a few weeks it is possible that some of those who rely on supplementing their income through part time jobs and the like will start running out of money. It's not inconceivable that we start hearing stories of both stealing of food and malnutrition in some student accommodation. And it's made worse if Universities are terrifying people into their rooms under threat, if not of the disease itself, but fines and disciplinary action.
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Well us in North East England are banned from hosting people outside our “support bubbles” in our gardens so... 🤷♂️
OT next Sunday sees the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in Paris (and on ITV Racing). I've previously suggested backing Mogul (still available at 20/1 with William Hill and Betfair Exchange but 10 or 12/1 generally). The Racing Post reports that trainer Aidan O'Brien reports that Mogul will run in the Arc and not be sent to Australia or Hong Kong as originally planned.
Though as the betting is generally 6/4 Love, 2/1 Enable, 10/1 bar, there may be value on any of the others if you know who will line up (in ante-post markets, you lose your stakes on non-runners). The market should mature this week as French trainers make their running plans known and entries are declared.
A little bit of politics (h-t 1980s Ben Elton): The Irish government has made special quarantine arrangements for jockeys; the British government has not.
Biden won the nomination largely flying under the radar. It seems he’s using the same approach for the election. It seems he’s supported by some clever people.
Flying under the radar??? More like taxiing on the runway. The Dems are desperate to keep Sleepy Joe away from press conferences and Q&A sessions without Palin-like pre-scripted responses. This man is a ticking time-bomb for the Dems in the same way Palin wowed the GOP for a while and then became the biggest joke of US politics. The debates are round the corner and the Dems will be absolutely terrified he doesn't screw up. Even with 180 years political experience.
So key question: Some of the voters clearly believe what you just said. Are any of them up for grabs if he shows up at the debate and performs cogently rather than to delivering a lengthy tirade in the direction of the door knob on the failed policies of the Van Buren administration? Or is it only the Trumpists who believe this stuff, and they're with Trump no matter what?
While Americans can register as supporters of a political party by no means all do, and equally, by no means all registered voters vote. Americans have one of the worst voting records in the world, even allowing for disqualifications for sneezing in a public place and the like.
There must be (I sincerely hope, anyway) a lot of people who didn't vote last time, and not just those un-enthused by Ms Clinton, who are equally unenthusiastic about Trump, who will turn out this, and, in the words of the crowd the other evening 'vote him out'. The best thing to see on election night, surely, would be a close run thing in somewhere like Utah. That might convince the Orange One that he really had lost.
A thought experiment. Many of the basic or long-standing legislative features of the U.K. originally came about as a consequence of “temporary” measures in time of war or national crisis. Some possible examples off the top of my head - Income tax (still, officially, a temporary measure!), daylight saving, I think the old pub licensing hours pre Blair reforms.
What changes, if any, in response to coronavirus (possibly yet to come...) do people think might do likewise in the UK?
The wealth tax that is coming along to pay for it all?
That just sends the super wealthy to Monaco and the Bahamas.
Under the cloak of Brexit inflation, stick 5% VAT on currently VAT free goods and 25% on everything else and it will go almost unnoticed.
Mrs Thatcher liked indirect taxation, we all pay and the poorest pay relatively more.
Why not adopt the US system of extraterritorial taxation of citizens?
Because it’s pretty much unenforceable in the vast majority of jurisdictions.
As long as you never want to come back or renew your passport.
I thought last orders at ten and remaining until one finishes, here in Wales was ridiculous, but maybe not so stupid after all. In England one can order five pints at 5 to 10 and have to consume them all in five minutes. Here in Wales one gets around an hour to finish their five for the road, after "stop tap".
Yes it's obvious that the approach should have been the traditional "last orders" (and locking the doors to those on the outside), not "everybody out". People who dreamt up these things don't live in the real world.
Perhaps there was some technical issue about over-riding landlords existing licensing conditions?
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Outdoors but chanting/singing lots of saliva into the air, so it is swings and roundabouts. It is not really clear what is the point of the 10pm curfew (shades of Jim Callaghan's tongue-in-cheek All good people are in bed by 10 o'clock.) and a couple of SAGE types have been unenthusiastic.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Well us in North East England are banned from hosting people outside our “support bubbles” in our gardens so... 🤷♂️
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
P.S. I edited out as many rogue apostrophes that my phone kindly added for me, but I missed out on the one on the first line.
I wouldn't dispute anything they all say, but GOP set the precedent by holding back Obama's nominee. It was unconstitutional!
Also - in 2016 the Republicans didn't just refuse to confirm the nominee (as was their constitutional right). The actively sought to delay and obstruct the process so that it didn't even get off the ground.
Anyone with half a brain can see that how ever much the Republicans may be trying to argue the "hypocrisy" of the Democrats, it simply doesn't hold up once they changed the rules of the game. It's like the abolition of the filibuster. Once one side abolishes the filibuster, the other side can't be expected to hold to it. Which is why they are attempting to produce these irrelevant distinctions about one party holding both Presidency and Senate. Far more merit would be had in arguing about changing the balance of the court (ie. Republican nominated being replaced by Democrat nominee or vice versa), except unfortunately for them it isn't available.
I have had a wonderful holiday in Freiberg in Breisgau visiting family, where everyone behaves and wears masks and keeps 2 metres and tracks and traces, and I come home to this,
Boris is an idiot, I didn't think he could be this bad. He needs an et tu brute job and asap.... but it will not happen now, not until we have left the EU. Let him take the blame for the fiasco.
The queue of lorries at Eurotunnel in France was miles long.. God knows what it will be like post brexit.
Has anyone had trouble using PB on Android??? I get infuriating ads offering me three free spins to nothing and I have to switch my phone off to get rid of it. there is no x to delete such crap. Is it a Smithson Junior matter?
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Outdoors but chanting/singing lots of saliva into the air, so it is swings and roundabouts. It is not really clear what is the point of the 10pm curfew (shades of Jim Callaghan's tongue-in-cheek All good people are in bed by 10 o'clock.) and a couple of SAGE types have been unenthusiastic.
Perhaps they could introduce the Scottish ban on household mixing, whilst simultaneously abolishing the 10pm curfew...
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
I think your point is probably a fair one. But you are happy to punish a(n) (granted, dangerously cavalier) excitable eighteen year old student, penalising them for the rest of their days, yet Cummings and Jenrick (although they were big boys who should have known better) get away with what they did because they are superior to the rest of us.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
It’s not just the (non academic) social life. A massive part of the academic benefits come from interaction with one’s peers on courses, the ability to discuss and debate ideas together, to meet shared course based challenges together, on what, for many, will be completely new ways of learning and study. It obviously varies between courses, but in principle, university is not supposed to be a continuation from school in that respect (where the focus is primarily on learning existing material with known and defined answers, and less on giving expression and challenge to one’s own thought, ideas and opinions). Can’t do that stuck at home on zoom.
I agree, even though much of it is informal discussion, revision, even copying of notes, university is a collective learning experience, not solely an individual one. A symposium is "drinking together" an informal discussion.
Sure, there is time for baccanalia too, but that needs to be restrained, while the educational parts of the collective experience are retained. It is a difficult balance for the universities.
Maybe students should have been confined to campus for 3-4 weeks and encouraged to mix. They'll have all had it by November and be safe to go out and about. Harder to do in a town centre university though
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
Is there still a Bullingdon Club at Oxford? If so, how is it operating. Or is it too early in term to know?
I wouldn't dispute anything they all say, but GOP set the precedent by holding back Obama's nominee. It was unconstitutional!
Also - in 2016 the Republicans didn't just refuse to confirm the nominee (as was their constitutional right). The actively sought to delay and obstruct the process so that it didn't even get off the ground.
Anyone with half a brain can see that how ever much the Republicans may be trying to argue the "hypocrisy" of the Democrats, it simply doesn't hold up once they changed the rules of the game. It's like the abolition of the filibuster. Once one side abolishes the filibuster, the other side can't be expected to hold to it. Which is why they are attempting to produce these irrelevant distinctions about one party holding both Presidency and Senate. Far more merit would be had in arguing about changing the balance of the court (ie. Republican nominated being replaced by Democrat nominee or vice versa), except unfortunately for them it isn't available.
Amy Coney Barret herself argued that stopping Garland getting hearings was justified as he was changing the balance of the judge being replaced.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
Is there still a Bullingdon Club at Oxford? If so, how is it operating. Or is it too early in term to know?
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
I think your point is probably a fair one. But you are happy to punish a(n) (granted, dangerously cavalier) excitable eighteen year old student, penalising them for the rest of their days, yet Cummings and Jenrick (although they were big boys who should have known better) get away with what they did because they are superior to the rest of us.
To be fair Cummings, Jenrick and Williamson should have been summarily fired and I want Boris gone ASAP
But my point about the bad behaviour by some students being expelled remains
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
Is there still a Bullingdon Club at Oxford? If so, how is it operating. Or is it too early in term to know?
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Outdoors but chanting/singing lots of saliva into the air, so it is swings and roundabouts. It is not really clear what is the point of the 10pm curfew (shades of Jim Callaghan's tongue-in-cheek All good people are in bed by 10 o'clock.) and a couple of SAGE types have been unenthusiastic.
Perhaps they could introduce the Scottish ban on household mixing, whilst simultaneously abolishing the 10pm curfew...
Polite request. Can we stop with the debate over whether the 10pm pub shut does anything about the the scale of the virus spread? It doesn't. If anything it makes it worse by sending people to home parties. It is now increasingly clear that it was made up on the back of a fag packet as a way of being seen to be doing something.
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Well us in North East England are banned from hosting people outside our “support bubbles” in our gardens so... 🤷♂️
I have had a wonderful holiday in Freiberg in Breisgau visiting family, where everyone behaves and wears masks and keeps 2 metres and tracks and traces, and I come home to this,
Boris is an idiot, I didn't think he could be this bad. He needs an et tu brute job and asap.... but it will not happen now, not until we have left the EU. Let him take the blame for the fiasco.
The queue of lorries at Eurotunnel in France was miles long.. God knows what it will be like post brexit.
Has anyone had trouble using PB on Android??? I get infuriating ads offering me three free spins to nothing and I have to switch my phone off to get rid of it. there is no x to delete such crap. Is it a Smithson Junior matter?
The ads on the mobile version are a menace and make the site totally unusable.These days I restrict PB use to the laptop instead.
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Outdoors but chanting/singing lots of saliva into the air, so it is swings and roundabouts. It is not really clear what is the point of the 10pm curfew (shades of Jim Callaghan's tongue-in-cheek All good people are in bed by 10 o'clock.) and a couple of SAGE types have been unenthusiastic.
Perhaps they could introduce the Scottish ban on household mixing, whilst simultaneously abolishing the 10pm curfew...
Polite request. Can we stop with the debate over whether the 10pm pub shut does anything about the the scale of the virus spread? It doesn't. If anything it makes it worse by sending people to home parties. It is now increasingly clear that it was made up on the back of a fag packet as a way of being seen to be doing something.
See Hodges Mail article this morning for example.
And that is why Sturgeon has made that behaviour illegal
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
Oliver was so pleased earlier in the year at the prospect of a return to Glyndebourne. So with today's footballing message, he is down with the kids and the Red Wall after all.
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
It’s not just the (non academic) social life. A massive part of the academic benefits come from interaction with one’s peers on courses, the ability to discuss and debate ideas together, to meet shared course based challenges together, on what, for many, will be completely new ways of learning and study. It obviously varies between courses, but in principle, university is not supposed to be a continuation from school in that respect (where the focus is primarily on learning existing material with known and defined answers, and less on giving expression and challenge to one’s own thought, ideas and opinions). Can’t do that stuck at home on zoom.
I agree, even though much of it is informal discussion, revision, even copying of notes, university is a collective learning experience, not solely an individual one. A symposium is "drinking together" an informal discussion.
Sure, there is time for baccanalia too, but that needs to be restrained, while the educational parts of the collective experience are retained. It is a difficult balance for the universities.
Maybe students should have been confined to campus for 3-4 weeks and encouraged to mix. They'll have all had it by November and be safe to go out and about. Harder to do in a town centre university though
Impossible to do in a town centre university, you mean. Likewise even in campus universities like Warwick, students still need to go out into the community to buy food.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
Is there still a Bullingdon Club at Oxford? If so, how is it operating. Or is it too early in term to know?
I have no idea
It meets 4 times a year, IIRC. All the stories are horse manure, by the way.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
I wouldn't dispute anything they all say, but GOP set the precedent by holding back Obama's nominee. It was unconstitutional!
Right. So the Republicans were in the wrong back then and now the Democrats are in the wrong now.
So your solution is to give the GOP what they want under every circumstance?
The solution is to uphold the constitution and allow the president to nominate a candidate for the supreme court.
Nobody is "not allowing" the president to nominate a candidate, they are simply criticising him (and the GOP) for doing so. Must you really get so outraged about everything?
A thought experiment. Many of the basic or long-standing legislative features of the U.K. originally came about as a consequence of “temporary” measures in time of war or national crisis. Some possible examples off the top of my head - Income tax (still, officially, a temporary measure!), daylight saving, I think the old pub licensing hours pre Blair reforms.
What changes, if any, in response to coronavirus (possibly yet to come...) do people think might do likewise in the UK?
The wealth tax that is coming along to pay for it all?
That just sends the super wealthy to Monaco and the Bahamas.
Under the cloak of Brexit inflation, stick 5% VAT on currently VAT free goods and 25% on everything else and it will go almost unnoticed.
Mrs Thatcher liked indirect taxation, we all pay and the poorest pay relatively more.
Why not adopt the US system of extraterritorial taxation of citizens?
Because it’s pretty much unenforceable in the vast majority of jurisdictions.
Surely it is VERY enforceable if you return to the USA for any reason - like Grandma's funeral? You know the yanks - a parking ticket gets you 10 years in jail with no parole....
Oh, the overseas Yanks still fill in the forms. It’s just that in a lot of cases they’re not employed in such a way that makes the paying of the overseas taxes mandatory.
There’s a large ($120k) allowance, and taxes paid overseas can be offset. Most of the others are either paid in forms other than money into a bank account, and many jurisdictions don’t have an income tax system. Yanks I know in sales jobs over here get their commissions paid to them in cash. As in piles of banknotes.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
I think your point is probably a fair one. But you are happy to punish a(n) (granted, dangerously cavalier) excitable eighteen year old student, penalising them for the rest of their days, yet Cummings and Jenrick (although they were big boys who should have known better) get away with what they did because they are superior to the rest of us.
To be fair Cummings, Jenrick and Williamson should have been summarily fired and I want Boris gone ASAP
But my point about the bad behaviour by some students being expelled remains
But they weren't. In fact post bad behaviour, Jenrick was found to have rewarded himself with a £10,000 donation to his party from the Minister for Pornography and Cummings has helped himself to the BBC's scalp.
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
Oliver was so pleased earlier in the year at the prospect of a return to Glyndebourne. So with today's footballing message, he is down with the kids and the Red Wall after all.
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
The right has been in power for most of the last thirty years, where has this idea the left runs the establishment come from?
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
It’s not just the (non academic) social life. A massive part of the academic benefits come from interaction with one’s peers on courses, the ability to discuss and debate ideas together, to meet shared course based challenges together, on what, for many, will be completely new ways of learning and study. It obviously varies between courses, but in principle, university is not supposed to be a continuation from school in that respect (where the focus is primarily on learning existing material with known and defined answers, and less on giving expression and challenge to one’s own thought, ideas and opinions). Can’t do that stuck at home on zoom.
I agree, even though much of it is informal discussion, revision, even copying of notes, university is a collective learning experience, not solely an individual one. A symposium is "drinking together" an informal discussion.
Sure, there is time for baccanalia too, but that needs to be restrained, while the educational parts of the collective experience are retained. It is a difficult balance for the universities.
Maybe students should have been confined to campus for 3-4 weeks and encouraged to mix. They'll have all had it by November and be safe to go out and about. Harder to do in a town centre university though
Impossible to do in a town centre university, you mean. Likewise even in campus universities like Warwick, students still need to go out into the community to buy food.
Yeah wouldn't be able to do that at Cardiff, uni in the city centre, halls at least a 20 min walk.
I wouldn't dispute anything they all say, but GOP set the precedent by holding back Obama's nominee. It was unconstitutional!
Right. So the Republicans were in the wrong back then and now the Democrats are in the wrong now.
So your solution is to give the GOP what they want under every circumstance?
The solution is to uphold the constitution and allow the president to nominate a candidate for the supreme court.
Rushing through a nomination in this manner so close to the election, and in the context of what happened to Merrick Garland (something you seem happy to ignore) is no kind of solution at all. The legitimacy of the court will be an issue for the next decade at least.
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Outdoors but chanting/singing lots of saliva into the air, so it is swings and roundabouts. It is not really clear what is the point of the 10pm curfew (shades of Jim Callaghan's tongue-in-cheek All good people are in bed by 10 o'clock.) and a couple of SAGE types have been unenthusiastic.
Perhaps they could introduce the Scottish ban on household mixing, whilst simultaneously abolishing the 10pm curfew...
Polite request. Can we stop with the debate over whether the 10pm pub shut does anything about the the scale of the virus spread? It doesn't. If anything it makes it worse by sending people to home parties. It is now increasingly clear that it was made up on the back of a fag packet as a way of being seen to be doing something.
See Hodges Mail article this morning for example.
rb - that was my point. Bring in a new measure which might do something (if followed) whilst (giving political cover to) reversing something that was neutral at best, if not downright counterproductive (which will also help economically).
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
Oliver was so pleased earlier in the year at the prospect of a return to Glyndebourne. So with today's footballing message, he is down with the kids and the Red Wall after all.
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
I agree but not when they are asking it for money
I was playing a sort of JRM-style devil's advocate. But on that basis my point stands up.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
It’s not just the (non academic) social life. A massive part of the academic benefits come from interaction with one’s peers on courses, the ability to discuss and debate ideas together, to meet shared course based challenges together, on what, for many, will be completely new ways of learning and study. It obviously varies between courses, but in principle, university is not supposed to be a continuation from school in that respect (where the focus is primarily on learning existing material with known and defined answers, and less on giving expression and challenge to one’s own thought, ideas and opinions). Can’t do that stuck at home on zoom.
I agree, even though much of it is informal discussion, revision, even copying of notes, university is a collective learning experience, not solely an individual one. A symposium is "drinking together" an informal discussion.
Sure, there is time for baccanalia too, but that needs to be restrained, while the educational parts of the collective experience are retained. It is a difficult balance for the universities.
Maybe students should have been confined to campus for 3-4 weeks and encouraged to mix. They'll have all had it by November and be safe to go out and about. Harder to do in a town centre university though
Impossible to do in a town centre university, you mean. Likewise even in campus universities like Warwick, students still need to go out into the community to buy food.
Yeah wouldn't be able to do that at Cardiff, uni in the city centre, halls at least a 20 min walk.
Same in Newcastle, for both Newcastle and Northumbria universities.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
On 5 live this morning two Manchester students rang in to say how they were isolating in their rooms but that a minority of fellow students were out of control knocking on doors and asking if they would come out and they would give them covid. They were so intimidated that they phoned security who refused to attend and then they phoned the police
A University union leader was interviewed who condemned the students behaviour but demanded that the rents and fees for this year were paid for by HMG. The University said they were putting in place safeguarding measures
There is a simple answer to this and it is not for HMG to shell out even more of taxpayers money but to identify the minority who are spoiling it for the majority and just expel them
Both my son's came back from University in mid March, having enjoyed a term and a half of their second years at University. Lockdown intervention was minimal (I mean virtually non existent) between March and June, so both missed almost half an academic year. There has been no reimbursement of the £9000 and £9250 each of them paid.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
I really do not know how to square the circle and do think the student crisis and the way it is handled, especially in Scotland, is going to result in years of disillusioned young people
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
I think your point is probably a fair one. But you are happy to punish a(n) (granted, dangerously cavalier) excitable eighteen year old student, penalising them for the rest of their days, yet Cummings and Jenrick (although they were big boys who should have known better) get away with what they did because they are superior to the rest of us.
To be fair Cummings, Jenrick and Williamson should have been summarily fired and I want Boris gone ASAP
But my point about the bad behaviour by some students being expelled remains
But they weren't. In fact post bad behaviour, Jenrick was found to have rewarded himself with a £10,000 donation to his party from the Minister for Pornography and Cummings has helped himself to the BBC's scalp.
Having made little or no attempt at serious enforcement of self isolation and quarantine for the country at large, where many are ignoring or bending the rules whilst in far more congenial living conditions, students are being disgracefully scapegoated for circumstances largely beyond their control (indeed having been actively encouraged to put themselves in this position), imprisoned and threatened with fines, disciplinary action or worst, many without any warning or knowledge of the basis for their predicament.
It's disgraceful.
Absolutely is and it is because they're young and don't vote Tory, that this is being done.
The young have constantly been screwed over and attacked over the last decade.
You need to calm down
I am absolutely right.
You see it in polling, old people that vote want them to stay there locked in their rooms and because they vote they get what they want.
These people don't vote and don't vote Tory, hence they get ignored in the decisions. I stated a fact - I know you don't like it but it wasn't wrong.
No need for the condescending post either Big G, please respect me as I respect you.
You are absolutely not right
Nicola Sturgeon was the first to mandate student lockdown due to the large outbreak in Scotland and it was the right thing to do
Furthermore the action is widely supported across all sections of the populace
And the reason they were all sent into lockdown is because rental income has become cash cows to universities and they were lured there on the basis that it would be necessary for some face to face teaching to be part of their courses. Face to face teaching of which has in many cases been cancelled as well.
A large part of the "support" for the lockdowns is the scapegoating of students by making out that they are all out at illegal raves every night, and a complete lack of knowledge of the living conditions that many are forced to endure these conditions under.
And supported by large sectors of the population who are themselves ignoring or twisting the requirements for themselves to self-isolate safe in the knowledge that for them at least, the rules are largely unenforceable. Unlike some of these students who have police patrolling their blocks watching out for anybody who might try to escape.
I largely agree
I would suggest that when this shakes out Scottish Universities will have to charge all students fees
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with everyone or disagreeing with everyone tonight BigG! Or both
I basically agree students should not have been put in this position and lectures gone largely on line
But I also agree that some have been very irresponsible and need to be in enforced quarantine
So maybe that accounts for my ambiguity
And I am elderly !!!!
The problem is those who have been totally responsible but find themselves in enforced quarantine as well. And i still say that irresponsible or not, the way these quarantines are being enforced is totally unsustainable. One off periods of self-isolation can possibly be just about endured (although there should definitely be mixing allowed within the bubbles (at least at eg. shared kitchen level) with any clearly vulnerable students moved elsewhere for their own safety. But not repeated rolling quarantines every time somebody tests positive.
And this is where students will need to study online away from campus
And what about all those students in private rented accommodation? That’ll be hundreds of thousands who’ll owe thousands of pounds each to private landlords for absolutely no reason.
I fear that Universities may have to close their campus if covid does not stabilise and the economic ramifications are immeasurable
Yeah but you haven’t answered the question. In a vast majority of cases students live in accommodation that has nothing to do with their university.
Accommodation that costs thousands of pounds and which students are contracted to pay for.
To be fair, that is less of a problem in the context that this started being debated. The conditions for students quarantining in private accommodation off campus is less extreme and less enforceable. It is akin to the self isolation going on in the rest of the country (with people, as a minimum, bending the official rules to go for walks and things without serious prospect of enforcement consequences). Secondly a quarantine period for such students is not an ongoing problem. Covid will sweep through their house and that will be it.
That is very different from the prospect facing students in campus accommodation facing strict, strongly enforced, ongoing rolling quarantines in horrible accommodation, every time a handful of new cases hits their blocks.
Many student “blocks” are private too. What even is the suggestion here? Send only 1st years in university owned student “blocks” home?
If you enforce university to be online only completely, those in private accommodation off campus are still paying for accommodation they don’t need and also don’t want.
If university becomes online only then students can stay in their private accommodation with their friends or return home and live with their parents, their choice.
If it were up to me I would want to give the students the right to get out of the contract if they want to do so, though I'm not sure how that would work.
If university becomes online only then it will become quite clear how overpriced a couple of lectures and tutorials a week are when delivered on zoom.
With university the social life is half 90% of the product.
Fixed that for you.
This talk about students not being allowed home for Christmas is pretty harsh. If they were thinking of imposing that then it needed to be made clear to them weeks ago. It's unfair to get them to sign up to a load of debt and then telling them.
It’s not just the (non academic) social life. A massive part of the academic benefits come from interaction with one’s peers on courses, the ability to discuss and debate ideas together, to meet shared course based challenges together, on what, for many, will be completely new ways of learning and study. It obviously varies between courses, but in principle, university is not supposed to be a continuation from school in that respect (where the focus is primarily on learning existing material with known and defined answers, and less on giving expression and challenge to one’s own thought, ideas and opinions). Can’t do that stuck at home on zoom.
I agree, even though much of it is informal discussion, revision, even copying of notes, university is a collective learning experience, not solely an individual one. A symposium is "drinking together" an informal discussion.
Sure, there is time for baccanalia too, but that needs to be restrained, while the educational parts of the collective experience are retained. It is a difficult balance for the universities.
Maybe students should have been confined to campus for 3-4 weeks and encouraged to mix. They'll have all had it by November and be safe to go out and about. Harder to do in a town centre university though
Impossible to do in a town centre university, you mean. Likewise even in campus universities like Warwick, students still need to go out into the community to buy food.
Yeah wouldn't be able to do that at Cardiff, uni in the city centre, halls at least a 20 min walk.
Same in Newcastle, for both Newcastle and Northumbria universities.
And what about London? By far the largest number of students in the country. Where there is no semblance of a Campus at all and Halls are spread around the City.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
Oliver was so pleased earlier in the year at the prospect of a return to Glyndebourne. So with today's footballing message, he is down with the kids and the Red Wall after all.
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
Oliver was so pleased earlier in the year at the prospect of a return to Glyndebourne. So with today's footballing message, he is down with the kids and the Red Wall after all.
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
I agree but not when they are asking it for money
Who says they are?
Dowding was clearly indicating they were seeking cash aid due to loss of fans for most of this season
Just watching the local politics show on BBC One and they've gone for vox pops from formerly local expats. The expats in France and Spain were whinging about how much safer they are in those countries and that Britain's lockdown is "lazy".
Both missing the point that both of their own countries opened up way too much over the summer and that they still have fewer restrictions, while their case numbers are still well above the UK even though we're chasing.
I'm all for the public getting a say on TV, but I do wish the BBC wouldn't air views that include nonsense that flies in the face of the figures.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
And that was down to Blair, the only time I have ever voted labour (twice)
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
I'm not talking about government I'm talking about the civil service, education, the BBC, Channel 4, legal profession etc. etc.
Now is the first time a Tory government has dared to try to shift the balance the other way in a long time.
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
Oliver was so pleased earlier in the year at the prospect of a return to Glyndebourne. So with today's footballing message, he is down with the kids and the Red Wall after all.
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
I agree but not when they are asking it for money
Who says they are?
Dowding was clearly indicating they were seeking cash aid due to loss of fans for most of this season
My understanding was that the Premier League are saying that they won't support the lower levels unless they are given clear assurances on the return of fans to their own stadia (with guidance as to how this will be able to operate 'safely' (that won't be altered at a future date once investment has been made to allow it to happen), backed up by financial commitments if those assurances are then rowed back upon.
In general TV money means the PL can stand on its own two feet. The lower leagues need fans, or help.
Is drinking outside dangerous particularly? I know the people in that picture are talking and they're closely spaced but the airflow should be excellent. It definitely seems better than a bunch of people going back to somebody's teensy living room.
Outdoors but chanting/singing lots of saliva into the air, so it is swings and roundabouts. It is not really clear what is the point of the 10pm curfew (shades of Jim Callaghan's tongue-in-cheek All good people are in bed by 10 o'clock.) and a couple of SAGE types have been unenthusiastic.
Perhaps they could introduce the Scottish ban on household mixing, whilst simultaneously abolishing the 10pm curfew...
Polite request. Can we stop with the debate over whether the 10pm pub shut does anything about the the scale of the virus spread? It doesn't. If anything it makes it worse by sending people to home parties. It is now increasingly clear that it was made up on the back of a fag packet as a way of being seen to be doing something.
See Hodges Mail article this morning for example.
rb - that was my point. Bring in a new measure which might do something (if followed) whilst (giving political cover to) reversing something that was neutral at best, if not downright counterproductive (which will also help economically).
Set latest closing time at 1:00 no entry after 12:00 with landlords discretion within those hours. Mandate mask wearing in the street and ban alcohol consumption outside, police the streets and inside the bars to ensure distancing, group size and table service etc.
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
Oliver was so pleased earlier in the year at the prospect of a return to Glyndebourne. So with today's footballing message, he is down with the kids and the Red Wall after all.
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
I agree but not when they are asking it for money
Who says they are?
Dowding was clearly indicating they were seeking cash aid due to loss of fans for most of this season
My understanding was that the Premier League are saying that they won't support the lower levels unless they are given clear assurances on the return of fans to their own stadia (with guidance as to how this will be able to operate 'safely' (that won't be altered at a future date once investment has been made to allow it to happen), backed up by financial commitments if those assurances are then rowed back upon.
In general TV money means the PL can stand on its own two feet. The lower leagues need fans, or help.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
I'm not talking about government I'm talking about the civil service, the BBC, Channel 4, legal profession etc. etc.
Now is the first time a Tory government has dared to try to shift the balance the other way in a long time.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
I'm not talking about government I'm talking about the civil service, the BBC, Channel 4, legal profession etc. etc.
Now is the first time a Tory government has dared to try to shift the balance the other way in a long time.
The Tory Govt is "shifting the balance" by appointing people to head institutions that are pledged to destroy them? Hardly surprising they haven't tried that before... They have certainly appoint Tories to head up the BBC and the like, but nothing so blatant as this.
That tweet is reassuring for those at that university. That is not how self isolation is being practiced universally.
I guess one question that needs to be asked, is whether these student outbreaks actually significant in terms of numbers locally. If not, maybe they should just be managed in the same way as any other local outbreak
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
I'm not talking about government I'm talking about the civil service, the BBC, Channel 4, legal profession etc. etc.
Now is the first time a Tory government has dared to try to shift the balance the other way in a long time.
Get out more, read less Guido and grow up.
Well this is a well thought out argument.
As I said the toys leave the pram when the left don't get what they want.
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
So large hotel chains should look after independent ones as well then?
It's government action that has destroyed lower league clubs, why should other private business pick up the bill?
The Premier League isn't completely independent of the rest of the football pyramid. Ensuring a good foundation of league football in this country is very much in the Premier League's interests. There's a reason many Premier League like Klopp have already supported the idea.
I wouldn't dispute anything they all say, but GOP set the precedent by holding back Obama's nominee. It was unconstitutional!
Right. So the Republicans were in the wrong back then and now the Democrats are in the wrong now.
So your solution is to give the GOP what they want under every circumstance?
The solution is to uphold the constitution and allow the president to nominate a candidate for the supreme court.
So you will have no objection when the Dems increase the size of the court and add another 5 judges next session then if they win? It will be fully constitutional.
Bottas at 5.6 (BfEx) seems excellent value to win the Grand Prix. Alternatively lay Lewis at 1.64. He starts on the ‘wrong’ strategy with soft tyres, after a difficult qualifying session yesterday.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
I'm not talking about government I'm talking about the civil service, the BBC, Channel 4, legal profession etc. etc.
Now is the first time a Tory government has dared to try to shift the balance the other way in a long time.
The Tory Govt is "shifting the balance" by appointing people to head institutions that are pledged to destroy them? Hardly surprising they haven't tried that before... They have certainly appoint Tories to head up the BBC and the like, but nothing so blatant as this.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
I'm not talking about government I'm talking about the civil service, education, the BBC, Channel 4, legal profession etc. etc.
Now is the first time a Tory government has dared to try to shift the balance the other way in a long time.
Bottas at 5.6 (BfEx) seems excellent value to win the Grand Prix. Alternatively lay Lewis at 1.64. He starts on the ‘wrong’ strategy with soft tyres, after a difficult qualifying session yesterday.
A thought experiment. Many of the basic or long-standing legislative features of the U.K. originally came about as a consequence of “temporary” measures in time of war or national crisis. Some possible examples off the top of my head - Income tax (still, officially, a temporary measure!), daylight saving, I think the old pub licensing hours pre Blair reforms.
What changes, if any, in response to coronavirus (possibly yet to come...) do people think might do likewise in the UK?
The wealth tax that is coming along to pay for it all?
That just sends the super wealthy to Monaco and the Bahamas.
Under the cloak of Brexit inflation, stick 5% VAT on currently VAT free goods and 25% on everything else and it will go almost unnoticed.
Mrs Thatcher liked indirect taxation, we all pay and the poorest pay relatively more.
Why not adopt the US system of extraterritorial taxation of citizens?
Because it’s pretty much unenforceable in the vast majority of jurisdictions.
Surely it is VERY enforceable if you return to the USA for any reason - like Grandma's funeral? You know the yanks - a parking ticket gets you 10 years in jail with no parole....
Oh, the overseas Yanks still fill in the forms. It’s just that in a lot of cases they’re not employed in such a way that makes the paying of the overseas taxes mandatory.
There’s a large ($120k) allowance, and taxes paid overseas can be offset. Most of the others are either paid in forms other than money into a bank account, and many jurisdictions don’t have an income tax system. Yanks I know in sales jobs over here get their commissions paid to them in cash. As in piles of banknotes.
Don't think that's the case everywhere. Thailand for example.
Oliver Dowding on Marr clearly telling the Premier League they need to support football
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
Oliver was so pleased earlier in the year at the prospect of a return to Glyndebourne. So with today's footballing message, he is down with the kids and the Red Wall after all.
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
I agree but not when they are asking it for money
Who says they are?
Dowding was clearly indicating they were seeking cash aid due to loss of fans for most of this season
My understanding was that the Premier League are saying that they won't support the lower levels unless they are given clear assurances on the return of fans to their own stadia (with guidance as to how this will be able to operate 'safely' (that won't be altered at a future date once investment has been made to allow it to happen), backed up by financial commitments if those assurances are then rowed back upon.
In general TV money means the PL can stand on its own two feet. The lower leagues need fans, or help.
I cannot see fans at matches for months
This comment is a non-sequitur to those that preceded it. You said that PL were asking for money to compensate for lack of fans at their stadia. I questioned that. That they might be setting impossible conditions to putting money into assisting the lower leagues is a different question, but doesn't amount to directly asking the Government for money.
(although incidentally - in other areas of the economy the Government haven't been seeking to base financial assistance for losses of income caused by Government imposed restrictions on how rich the businesses were perceived to be).
There also wouldn't be much point in the Government making financial support to PL clubs conditional on them helping out Lower league clubs more in need. They might as well just give to the lower leagues directly. Which they are arguing against saying it is the PL responsibility.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
And that was down to Blair, the only time I have ever voted labour (twice)
If I were 70 BigG. I would still only have seen 23 years of non-Conservative governments.
I have to go. Those people on here supporting Cummings' destruction of British institutions are from the same block that would have been supporting the Third Reich had they been 1930s Germans.
I am not suggesting Cummings is that extreme, but if he was, these people would still be cheering him on.
The left has run almost the entire establishment for decades. Now finally a few right wingers are getting put in positions of power the toys are leaving the pram.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
What withering nonsense. In my 58 years I have known just 23 years of Labour Governments. Since I have had a vote at the age of eighteen, some 40 years, I have experienced just 13 years of non-Conservative led government.
As a leftie I always thought the BBC was a bit to the right in news and serious comment, but it could be irreverent, so, one way and another, fair enough. However in the Brexit era (yes I know we've not quite finished it) it leant far too far over towards the UKIP position. The BBC East, the one I watch, was almost Brexit Central.
Comments
MMU was a *very* impressive university and he seriously considered it. So glad we dodged that particular bullet...
Do they combine all the samples from say 50 people, test (in this case) the 3560 pooled samples this gives (from 178,000 people), then test the 50 individuals in any pooled sample that tests positive?
But we have to see how things go. Not long now.
One has gone back to the University of South Wales and is in lockdown in RCT. He is autistic and living in a 6 room flat on his own. The other five rooms were for overseas students, who have not returned. He has been alone for a fortnight, and being compliant refuses to drive home. He was promised a mix of online and face to face teaching. The unions have said students can whistle for the face to face training.
The youngest is expecting to go back this week. He is fortunate in that he is not in halls, but he expects little more than his brother has seen.
The statements from Scotland are outrageous. A first time away from the family home-sick fresher is expected to cope with being locked in over Christmas is nothing short of mental torture.
This really hasn't been thought through. That will be £9250 please. Rip-off Britain, as we live and breath.
https://twitter.com/charliehtweets/status/1309988787943022592?s=20
Of course, the vast majority of US citizens don’t have to pay a cent anyway as tax is only due on income above about $100,000 anyway - though they still have to file tax returns.
Worth a small punt? (And if Essex do win that's quite some consolation!)
I'm not talking about preventing people from going to pubs, and generally interacting closely with large numbers of people around campus and beyond, but talk of no mixing at at, even within self isolation 'bubbles/groups' - which certainly isn't the law, even if partially reflective of some government guidelines. Cooking alone in the kitchens on a rota, eating alone in your room and spending days and weeks only emerging to wash and take food deliveries. This is not humane, and outside of care homes and where there are high risk individuals, won't be occurring in any other self isolating households in the country, where generally people will act on the basis that if one's got it they will all get it - and the priority is to avoid spreading it outside of the immediate vicinity.
A far better approach IMO would be tiered isolation IMO - those with clear symptoms/positive tests to be moved into specific accommodation until they are clear - but where they can mix safely with others also infected, whilst adopting looser quarantine provisions for those who may be close contacts of the proven cases. And also shifting vulnerable individuals out of potentially at risk accommodation.
Another separate issue of course - students don't have a lot of space to store food and supplies - and generally individual "stocking up" and taking up large amounts of space in fridges and freezers is discouraged. Much accommodation is set up assuming that most students will do a lot of eating out in university canteens and the like and generally from "on-the-day" purchases. Telling people to rely on supermarket deliveries or takeaways is not a sustainable solution - even for relatively short periods of isolation.
Also after a few weeks it is possible that some of those who rely on supplementing their income through part time jobs and the like will start running out of money. It's not inconceivable that we start hearing stories of both stealing of food and malnutrition in some student accommodation. And it's made worse if Universities are terrifying people into their rooms under threat, if not of the disease itself, but fines and disciplinary action.
https://twitter.com/ITGuy1959/status/1307877608487628802
Though as the betting is generally 6/4 Love, 2/1 Enable, 10/1 bar, there may be value on any of the others if you know who will line up (in ante-post markets, you lose your stakes on non-runners). The market should mature this week as French trainers make their running plans known and entries are declared.
A little bit of politics (h-t 1980s Ben Elton): The Irish government has made special quarantine arrangements for jockeys; the British government has not.
There must be (I sincerely hope, anyway) a lot of people who didn't vote last time, and not just those un-enthused by Ms Clinton, who are equally unenthusiastic about Trump, who will turn out this, and, in the words of the crowd the other evening 'vote him out'.
The best thing to see on election night, surely, would be a close run thing in somewhere like Utah. That might convince the Orange One that he really had lost.
Con 41.2% Lab 38.4%
Tory lead of 3%
Tories 10 short of a majority.
Perhaps there was some technical issue about over-riding landlords existing licensing conditions?
However, it does not change my view that a minority of badly behaving students should be expelled from their University
Anyone with half a brain can see that how ever much the Republicans may be trying to argue the "hypocrisy" of the Democrats, it simply doesn't hold up once they changed the rules of the game. It's like the abolition of the filibuster. Once one side abolishes the filibuster, the other side can't be expected to hold to it. Which is why they are attempting to produce these irrelevant distinctions about one party holding both Presidency and Senate. Far more merit would be had in arguing about changing the balance of the court (ie. Republican nominated being replaced by Democrat nominee or vice versa), except unfortunately for them it isn't available.
I understand the cost is £250 million so the average cost per Premier League club is £12.5 million
That figure is less than some individual Premier League players earn per year
HMG is right to tell the Premier League to look after their own
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1310139207386640385
Parliament needs a debate.
Boris is an idiot, I didn't think he could be this bad. He needs an et tu brute job and asap.... but it will not happen now, not until we have left the EU. Let him take the blame for the fiasco.
The queue of lorries at Eurotunnel in France was miles long.. God knows what it will be like post brexit.
Has anyone had trouble using PB on Android??? I get infuriating ads offering me three free spins to nothing and I have to switch my phone off to get rid of it. there is no x to delete such crap. Is it a Smithson Junior matter?
Trump wins Michigan: 14%
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/michigan/
Biden wins Mississippi: 14%
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/mississippi/
She is hoist by her own petard.
But my point about the bad behaviour by some students being expelled remains
See Hodges Mail article this morning for example.
https://twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1310140095119470592
https://twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1310140229706227712
By the way Premier League Clubs are businesses. A morally crusading government has no business telling them what to do.
Thumbs up for Cummings from me if it is his doing.
There’s a large ($120k) allowance, and taxes paid overseas can be offset. Most of the others are either paid in forms other than money into a bank account, and many jurisdictions don’t have an income tax system. Yanks I know in sales jobs over here get their commissions paid to them in cash. As in piles of banknotes.
It's government action that has destroyed lower league clubs, why should other private business pick up the bill?
The legitimacy of the court will be an issue for the next decade at least.
Prophetic
Furthermore, the outcry from the populace if HMG were seen to hand the Premier League money would be deafening
Both missing the point that both of their own countries opened up way too much over the summer and that they still have fewer restrictions, while their case numbers are still well above the UK even though we're chasing.
I'm all for the public getting a say on TV, but I do wish the BBC wouldn't air views that include nonsense that flies in the face of the figures.
Now is the first time a Tory government has dared to try to shift the balance the other way in a long time.
In general TV money means the PL can stand on its own two feet. The lower leagues need fans, or help.
As I said the toys leave the pram when the left don't get what they want.
Bottas at 5.6 (BfEx) seems excellent value to win the Grand Prix.
Alternatively lay Lewis at 1.64. He starts on the ‘wrong’ strategy with soft tyres, after a difficult qualifying session yesterday.
What ludicrous hyperbole.
(although incidentally - in other areas of the economy the Government haven't been seeking to base financial assistance for losses of income caused by Government imposed restrictions on how rich the businesses were perceived to be).
There also wouldn't be much point in the Government making financial support to PL clubs conditional on them helping out Lower league clubs more in need. They might as well just give to the lower leagues directly. Which they are arguing against saying it is the PL responsibility.
I have to go. Those people on here supporting Cummings' destruction of British institutions are from the same block that would have been supporting the Third Reich had they been 1930s Germans.
I am not suggesting Cummings is that extreme, but if he was, these people would still be cheering him on.
https://twitter.com/bobscartoons/status/1309906250830839808?s=20