Have to say there must have been an unfathomable amount of incompetency with the app design given that it isn't compatible with NHS, PHE and ONS testing. I'm probably going to uninstall it if this doesn't change in the next few days, doesn't seem worth it if 50% of testing isn't being logged into it.
How / why have they made it incompatible. Given all positive tests get compiled every day by the government, there must be some centralised system where all this gets entered.
Probably lots of different systems with different APIs and due to time constraints or incompetence they couldn't put it all into place
Have to say there must have been an unfathomable amount of incompetency with the app design given that it isn't compatible with NHS, PHE and ONS testing. I'm probably going to uninstall it if this doesn't change in the next few days, doesn't seem worth it if 50% of testing isn't being logged into it.
How / why have they made it incompatible. Given all positive tests get compiled every day by the government, there must be some centralised system where all this gets entered.
It's user based test result entry, you get a code in a text which you enter into the app and that lets you see your result. The NHS and ONS also use text delivery for test results so I'm not sure why they don't use the same system.
Have to say there must have been an unfathomable amount of incompetency with the app design given that it isn't compatible with NHS, PHE and ONS testing. I'm probably going to uninstall it if this doesn't change in the next few days, doesn't seem worth it if 50% of testing isn't being logged into it.
Dido Harding, Software Eng extraordinaire
Probably not interested or aware about anything outside the private sector.
My prediction for first Labour lead - whenever we see it - is Labour 42, Tories 40
Polls are irrelevant. Should not waste money conducting them, let parties do so if they want the info, restart them when an election is four months away.
It's fun though - and I'm not having a lot of fun at the moment
If there is one thing that will accelerate Boris leaving or being removed from office it will be a big fall in opinion polls.
His mps are already restless and rumours abound.
First 6 months of 2021 is my bet for the end of his premiership
"We risk forsaking liberties so many died to preserve"
"Suddenly we were "flattening the curve" instead. Now we have moved from "flattening the second hump of the camel" to "suppressing the virus until we have a vaccine" within a week. All of this has been decided behind closed doors without parliamentary debate or approval."
Parliaments must debate these restrictions on our lives.
I'm in favour, I suppose, of Parliament voting on any new COVID-19 restrictions. But let's have less of this "people died for these freedoms" stuff. I do have relatives who died in WW2, as I suspect most of us do. I think it unlikely, and offensive, to suggest that they died in order that I could have 5 people to dinner.
Surely they died for you to be able to exercise your own judgement on how many people you have to dinner, based on the circumstances as you see them.
And not be dictated to by, in one case, a person with a large financial interest in a certain policy.
I doubt it. Restrictions on how many people you have to dinner is a first-world 21st centuiry problem. Not having half the people in your city killed by enemy action (one relative starved in the siege of Leningrad), not having the whole of Asia enslaved (another was executed after capture by the Japanese) were 20th century problems. I have no idea what my lost relatives would have thought about dinner party restrictions. But we do not represent our lost families fairly by calling them in aid to whatever political thoughts we may be having. Let's all give WW2 parallels a rest except in cases of actual mass murder.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
Just seen this on the BBC News page 'A song about a former Labour MP (Dennis Skinner) has been topping the Amazon download charts ahead of Lady Gaga, Kylie Minogue and Bruce Springsteen.
Have to say there must have been an unfathomable amount of incompetency with the app design given that it isn't compatible with NHS, PHE and ONS testing. I'm probably going to uninstall it if this doesn't change in the next few days, doesn't seem worth it if 50% of testing isn't being logged into it.
I installed it yesterday and it seems fine to me so far
It works, but it's a bit pointless if pillar 1 (NHS/PHE) and pillar 4 (ONS) test results aren't compatible, that's 50% of daily testing.
"New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman told CNN’s Anderson Cooper on Thursday that he had started his career covering the Lebanese civil war and added, “I’m terrified to find myself ending my career as a journalist covering America’s potential second civil war in its history.”
Friedman also described Trump’s recent comments as a “six-alarm fire.” "
Can anyone help please? I'm having problems navigating the new "grey" version of PB.com in that I can't get back to the earlier comments of a ny particular thread, i.e. I can only read the most recent comments and clicking on the the "More Comments" wording at the foot of the latest batch of comments (adjacent to the "Vanilla" logo) no longer seems to function as it used to on the previous "green" version of the site.
HP Laserjet series are excellent. Colour MFP 281 is the latest all-in-one I think.
Another vote for the HP laserjets
Still using one I bought in 2002. Doesn't have WiFi but it does have an Ethernet card
My parents also have a newer one, bought maybe 5 years ago. Does have WiFi. Just works. Never had a support call...
I recommend them professionally to SMEs and home workers. They just keep working, and I say this as someone who has always hated printers with a passion, due to the number of usually pointless support calls they generate.
Have to say there must have been an unfathomable amount of incompetency with the app design given that it isn't compatible with NHS, PHE and ONS testing. I'm probably going to uninstall it if this doesn't change in the next few days, doesn't seem worth it if 50% of testing isn't being logged into it.
I installed it yesterday and it seems fine to me so far
It works, but it's a bit pointless if pillar 1 (NHS/PHE) and pillar 4 (ONS) test results aren't compatible, that's 50% of daily testing.
How was this not caught in testing? Why was the NHS not part of the conversation, and if it was why did we go with a method of reporting that doesn't work easily for 50% of testing?
Can anyone help please? I'm having problems navigating the new "grey" version of PB.com in that I can't get back to the earlier comments of a ny particular thread, i.e. I can only read the most recent comments and clicking on the the "More Comments" wording at the foot of the latest batch of comments (adjacent to the "Vanilla" logo) no longer seems to function as it used to on the previous "green" version of the site.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
During late autumn/start of winter? Well I suppose it’s an alternative way of killing everyone off...
On this particular issue, I continue to believe it was right to send kids back to school but it seems like not enough is being done to keep the cases under control.
If it was me I'd lock everything down except schools
They had a whole summer to organise education. Could have found additional buildings or built Nightingale schools, brought back retired teachers, set up the infrastructure for a blend of distance and at school learning, enabled education to continue with real social distancing maintained. But presumably it was too expensive, or perhaps our fractured system made it too complex. In all honesty, the efforts at social distancing in schools are utterly laughable and all of this could have been predicted - and indeed was by many of us on here.
Problem was getting schools back was used as a political weapon to beat Labour and the Unions all Summer. Therefore we got "perfectly safe" and "Covid secure". The howlingly obvious fact that it would be a trade off was never mentioned. Except on here. Frequently.
Also, there's been huge dollops of wishful thinking throughout, that the virus will basically be under control by September. And that wishful thinking starts at the top.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
Dunno about you guys, but the Scottish TV remake of 'Fresh Meat' is going to be pretty boring I reckon.
I’m rewatching Fresh Meat as we speak and I had forgotten how hilarious it was.
Indeed, but do you find it difficult to laugh when you know what some students are going through now? brutal.
They’re being quarantined for a fortnight in groups, the way people are going on you’d think they were being sent entered to lifetime time of solitary with extra torture.
These young adults are old enough to be sent abroad to serve their country.
Why did they go back at all?
Massive debt to do learning online, Freshers Week and partying is basically out the window on a normal scale
That’s a different question, but it seems that the universities only thought about the residence income and not sufficiently about virus suppression.
If it were me in that position now, I’d be the one working out how to find someone who’ll deliver a case of vodka, a case of coca-cola and a case of Pringles. A house full of freshers can happily live for a fortnight on that!
"We risk forsaking liberties so many died to preserve"
"Suddenly we were "flattening the curve" instead. Now we have moved from "flattening the second hump of the camel" to "suppressing the virus until we have a vaccine" within a week. All of this has been decided behind closed doors without parliamentary debate or approval."
Parliaments must debate these restrictions on our lives.
I'm in favour, I suppose, of Parliament voting on any new COVID-19 restrictions. But let's have less of this "people died for these freedoms" stuff. I do have relatives who died in WW2, as I suspect most of us do. I think it unlikely, and offensive, to suggest that they died in order that I could have 5 people to dinner.
Surely they died for you to be able to exercise your own judgement on how many people you have to dinner, based on the circumstances as you see them.
And not be dictated to by, in one case, a person with a large financial interest in a certain policy.
I don't recall restricting the size of dinner parties as a key plank of Nazi ideology?
On this particular issue, I continue to believe it was right to send kids back to school but it seems like not enough is being done to keep the cases under control.
If it was me I'd lock everything down except schools
They had a whole summer to organise education. Could have found additional buildings or built Nightingale schools, brought back retired teachers, set up the infrastructure for a blend of distance and at school learning, enabled education to continue with real social distancing maintained. But presumably it was too expensive, or perhaps our fractured system made it too complex. In all honesty, the efforts at social distancing in schools are utterly laughable and all of this could have been predicted - and indeed was by many of us on here.
Problem was getting schools back was used as a political weapon to beat Labour and the Unions all Summer. Therefore we got "perfectly safe" and "Covid secure". The howlingly obvious fact that it would be a trade off was never mentioned. Except on here. Frequently.
Also, there's been huge dollops of wishful thinking throughout, that the virus will basically be under control by September. And that wishful thinking starts at the top.
My teacher grandchildren reported that they weren't sure what was going to happen until just about the time they went back. Grandson has some special responsibilities in his school, too.
HP Laserjet series are excellent. Colour MFP 281 is the latest all-in-one I think.
Another vote for the HP laserjets
Still using one I bought in 2002. Doesn't have WiFi but it does have an Ethernet card
My parents also have a newer one, bought maybe 5 years ago. Does have WiFi. Just works. Never had a support call...
I recommend them professionally to SMEs and home workers. They just keep working, and I say this as someone who has always hated printers with a passion, due to the number of usually pointless support calls they generate.
The HP1020 was so good it started eating into HP's business sales so they discontinued it.
One early data point that has Democrats feeling good: money. Since Justice Ginsburg’s death, contributions have come pouring into progressive groups and individual campaigns at a level that political veterans say is unlike anything they’ve ever seen.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
From Day 1 10% of the population have behaved irresponsibly, ignored the rules and not given a damn whether they spread the disease. This is nothing new. Don't assume that it is what the majority of people are doing.
Have to say there must have been an unfathomable amount of incompetency with the app design given that it isn't compatible with NHS, PHE and ONS testing. I'm probably going to uninstall it if this doesn't change in the next few days, doesn't seem worth it if 50% of testing isn't being logged into it.
I installed it yesterday and it seems fine to me so far
It works, but it's a bit pointless if pillar 1 (NHS/PHE) and pillar 4 (ONS) test results aren't compatible, that's 50% of daily testing.
How was this not caught in testing? Why was the NHS not part of the conversation, and if it was why did we go with a method of reporting that doesn't work easily for 50% of testing?
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
Excellent. It's about time that parliament got a say on the biggest issue facing the country. The way the executive gas overriden parliamentary sovereignty on this is extremely worrying. Good to know there are still MPs with a spine in the house.
Parliament should have a say, but I am not going to get too excited about this.
Johnson has a majority of 80. Are they going to do anything other than rubberstamp whatever he puts in front of them?
I am not holding my breath...
At the moment there is a one sided debate on all of the issues of the day, no dissent on the official line has been allowed to air, only dissent on process. Opening up the conversation to people who have a more sceptical line on this new zero COVID strategy we've adopted changes the dynamic hugely. The government will be forced to to justify measures to the house (and the people) and provide a basis of evidence for what they are doing. At the moment they don't have to do anything, this is a vast improvement.
With respect, as one who has found himself agreeing more and more with your posts, we don't have a "zero Covid" strategy. If we did we would have vigorous enforcement and travel bans and would be more like Taiwan or New Zealand. With the aim of elimination. We have a "virus suppression" policy. The aim being get the numbers down and an R rate substantially below 1. General thrust of point agreed that said.
The government has said we're going to do this for 6 months, if that's not pursuing a zero COVID strategy I don't know why they're bothering. Surely it should be until we get the R back down to below 1 and sustained for a month or so afterwards.
I know I know. The 6 months was curious. A month of hard lockdown with vigorous enforcement would surely have been more effective at suppression. And also played better with the public, being a far more manageable time frame to get ones head around. But there we are.
I took it as serious overestimating, i.e. under promising
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
I’m interrupted by a call from my local authority. Could I make sure children who are off school in “isolation” stay at home instead of congregating at the shopping centre?
...
One teacher nervous about possible contact has never knowingly met the child, but is keen to self-isolate regardless. This is the same member of staff I had to speak to sternly on the first day back because of enthusiastic hugging of colleagues.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
Removing choice has never worked.
The pubs policy is a disaster I agree but the solution is now to close the pubs entirely.
Can anyone help please? I'm having problems navigating the new "grey" version of PB.com in that I can't get back to the earlier comments of a ny particular thread, i.e. I can only read the most recent comments and clicking on the the "More Comments" wording at the foot of the latest batch of comments (adjacent to the "Vanilla" logo) no longer seems to function as it used to on the previous "green" version of the site.
Many thanks for the link CHB ... I think I've got the hang of it now, the only difference being that the comments are now in the reverse order, i.e. the more recent ones appear as one scrolls DOWN the page, as opposed to UP the page as previously but I guess I'll soon get used to that!
Can anyone help please? I'm having problems navigating the new "grey" version of PB.com in that I can't get back to the earlier comments of a ny particular thread, i.e. I can only read the most recent comments and clicking on the the "More Comments" wording at the foot of the latest batch of comments (adjacent to the "Vanilla" logo) no longer seems to function as it used to on the previous "green" version of the site.
Many thanks for the link CHB ... I think I've got the hang of it now, the only difference being that the comments are now in the reverse order, i.e. the more recent ones appear as one scrolls DOWN the page, as opposed to UP the page as previously but I guess I'll soon get used to that!
My pleasure, friend. I think in time you'll come to like Vanilla a lot more than the main site, for discussion.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
Removing choice has never worked.
The pubs policy is a disaster I agree but the solution is now to close the pubs entirely.
No it isn't, that's a drastic overreaction which would put thousands of businesses and a million jobs in jeopardy. We just needed to enforce the rule of 6, have a proper contact tracing app and table service. It works in Italy and Germany.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
Removing choice has never worked.
The pubs policy is a disaster I agree but the solution is now to close the pubs entirely.
No it isn't, that's a drastic overreaction which would put thousands of businesses and a million jobs in jeopardy. We just needed to enforce the rule of 6, have a proper contact tracing app and table service. It works in Italy and Germany.
Well the rule of 6 was an improvement, I'll give you that.
But I think you're wrong to say it was all that was needed. I think lockdown 2.0 is inevitable, now it seems to be I think.
I think you're probably right to say we should have enforced the rule of 6 longer - but I would have enforced that from when we came out of the original lockdown, or even a smaller number, starting with visits outside only and then moving to indoors only if it was safe.
Excellent. It's about time that parliament got a say on the biggest issue facing the country. The way the executive gas overriden parliamentary sovereignty on this is extremely worrying. Good to know there are still MPs with a spine in the house.
I'm happy with parliament getting a vote on the measures. Starmer will consider the measures on their merits; Corbyn would probably have opposed the Gov't just for the sake of it even that wasn't in line with the national good.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
Removing choice has never worked.
The pubs policy is a disaster I agree but the solution is now to close the pubs entirely.
No it isn't, that's a drastic overreaction which would put thousands of businesses and a million jobs in jeopardy. We just needed to enforce the rule of 6, have a proper contact tracing app and table service. It works in Italy and Germany.
I think there needed to be restrictions on household mixing. Its no good having 6 people round one day, a different 6 the next.
Also, i think there is this weird belief that you are safe if you are outside. It is definitely safer, but we have seen outbreaks from pub beer gardens. And i see it all the time, outside a shop, no masks, stand there chatting in a group, then they whip out their mask to then go into it.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
Removing choice has never worked.
The pubs policy is a disaster I agree but the solution is now to close the pubs entirely.
No it isn't, that's a drastic overreaction which would put thousands of businesses and a million jobs in jeopardy. We just needed to enforce the rule of 6, have a proper contact tracing app and table service. It works in Italy and Germany.
I think there needed to be restrictions on household mixing. Its no good having 6 people round one day, a different 6 the next.
Also, i think there is this weird belief that you are safe if you are outside. It is definitely safer, but we have seen outbreaks from pub beer gardens. And i see it all the time, outside a shop, no masks, stand there chatting in a group, then they whip out their mask to then go into it.
Enforced social distancing meetings outside, up to 6 people (or less) at most. That's what we should have and should have had since end of lockdown, IMHO
From Day 1 10% of the population have behaved irresponsibly, ignored the rules and not given a damn whether they spread the disease. This is nothing new. Don't assume that it is what the majority of people are doing.
Quite.
I have a friend, for example, who in between damning the government/scientists, invites likeminded friends and their families round for BBQs, parties etc. And has done through the lockdown.
Quite simply, he is one of those people who existence is affirmed by socialisation. If there isn't something happening with him at the centre, then he doesn't feel he exists.
Same for his holidays to slightly unusual destinations - a complex plot of air miles, vouchers and upgrades. Unless he has got his holiday to Guatemala (say), complete with discounts and upgrades, his life is part empty.
What is interesting, when talking to him, is how the blame slides off.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
You're assuming it would be over let alone over quickly.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
Removing choice has never worked.
The pubs policy is a disaster I agree but the solution is now to close the pubs entirely.
No it isn't, that's a drastic overreaction which would put thousands of businesses and a million jobs in jeopardy. We just needed to enforce the rule of 6, have a proper contact tracing app and table service. It works in Italy and Germany.
I think there needed to be restrictions on household mixing. Its no good having 6 people round one day, a different 6 the next.
Also, i think there is this weird belief that you are safe if you are outside. It is definitely safer, but we have seen outbreaks from pub beer gardens. And i see it all the time, outside a shop, no masks, stand there chatting in a group, then they whip out their mask to then go into it.
Enforced social distancing meetings outside, up to 6 people (or less) at most. That's what we should have and should have had since end of lockdown, IMHO
I must say it would be very difficult the dance the way we did back in 50's and 60's. Getting up close and personal was the object of the exercise!
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
You're assuming it would be over let alone over quickly.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
Economy is in the toilet already and long term all these things will be damaged more by COVID and its impacts if we don't get it under control now
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
Removing choice has never worked.
I wonder if they were thinking in terms of 'old blokes down the local pub' rather than the '18-30 crowd' in city centres.
From Day 1 10% of the population have behaved irresponsibly, ignored the rules and not given a damn whether they spread the disease. This is nothing new. Don't assume that it is what the majority of people are doing.
You are identifying correctly the Twitter/Westminster/PB bubble effect. In pandemics most people get on with doing the right thing while the idiots who like the sounds of their own voices make a lot of noise and do a fair bit of damage. Exactly the same here in Spain.
"We risk forsaking liberties so many died to preserve"
"Suddenly we were "flattening the curve" instead. Now we have moved from "flattening the second hump of the camel" to "suppressing the virus until we have a vaccine" within a week. All of this has been decided behind closed doors without parliamentary debate or approval."
Parliaments must debate these restrictions on our lives.
I'm in favour, I suppose, of Parliament voting on any new COVID-19 restrictions. But let's have less of this "people died for these freedoms" stuff. I do have relatives who died in WW2, as I suspect most of us do. I think it unlikely, and offensive, to suggest that they died in order that I could have 5 people to dinner.
Surely they died for you to be able to exercise your own judgement on how many people you have to dinner, based on the circumstances as you see them.
And not be dictated to by, in one case, a person with a large financial interest in a certain policy.
I doubt it. Restrictions on how many people you have to dinner is a first-world 21st centuiry problem. Not having half the people in your city killed by enemy action (one relative starved in the siege of Leningrad), not having the whole of Asia enslaved (another was executed after capture by the Japanese) were 20th century problems. I have no idea what my lost relatives would have thought about dinner party restrictions. But we do not represent our lost families fairly by calling them in aid to whatever political thoughts we may be having. Let's all give WW2 parallels a rest except in cases of actual mass murder.
Including our 1940 obsessed PM whose knee jerk reaction when asked about Italy and Germany v the UK was to wibble on about freedom
LibDem lead thanks to passing our new Universal Basic Income policy
LibDem conference has just passed a motion making LibDem policy federalism rather than devolution for the UK. I.e. power given upwards rather than downwards. Distinct from Tory and Labour positions and might appeal more in Scotland and Wales.
From Day 1 10% of the population have behaved irresponsibly, ignored the rules and not given a damn whether they spread the disease. This is nothing new. Don't assume that it is what the majority of people are doing.
You are identifying correctly the Twitter/Westminster/PB bubble effect. In pandemics most people get on with doing the right thing while the idiots who like the sounds of their own voices make a lot of noise and do a fair bit of damage. Exactly the same here in Spain.
It is interesting (for example) to look at the "panic photos" of people in parks etc.
In 99% of them, small groups, multiple metres apart.
Excellent. It's about time that parliament got a say on the biggest issue facing the country. The way the executive gas overriden parliamentary sovereignty on this is extremely worrying. Good to know there are still MPs with a spine in the house.
I'm happy with parliament getting a vote on the measures. Starmer will consider the measures on their merits; Corbyn would probably have opposed the Gov't just for the sake of it even that wasn't in line with the national good.
Interestingly, I think such a vote would benefit Labour. Currently, they would whip to support the measures and would, I think, get virtually all to support the whip. By contrast, the Tories may look divided with several backbenchers opposing the measures.
Another couple having a look around our house. We had a buyer for all of 3 days - we accepted an offer. Then lockdown & Sunak and the lass suddenly is likely to lose her job so she pulled out. I also went up to Aberdeenshire this week to have a look at the house palace we want to buy. Should be mega stressful this house buying, but the happy pills leave me chilled out
LibDem lead thanks to passing our new Universal Basic Income policy
LibDem conference has just passed a motion making LibDem policy federalism rather than devolution for the UK. I.e. power given upwards rather than downwards. Distinct from Tory and Labour positions and might appeal more in Scotland and Wales.
What level of UBI are they talking about.
One way that the politicians love to row back on UBI, is on the universality. Keep lots of there benefits to fiddle with...
My view is a single replacement for
1) The tax free allowance 2) Benefit 3) State pension
"We risk forsaking liberties so many died to preserve"
"Suddenly we were "flattening the curve" instead. Now we have moved from "flattening the second hump of the camel" to "suppressing the virus until we have a vaccine" within a week. All of this has been decided behind closed doors without parliamentary debate or approval."
Parliaments must debate these restrictions on our lives.
I'm in favour, I suppose, of Parliament voting on any new COVID-19 restrictions. But let's have less of this "people died for these freedoms" stuff. I do have relatives who died in WW2, as I suspect most of us do. I think it unlikely, and offensive, to suggest that they died in order that I could have 5 people to dinner.
Surely they died for you to be able to exercise your own judgement on how many people you have to dinner, based on the circumstances as you see them.
And not be dictated to by, in one case, a person with a large financial interest in a certain policy.
I doubt it. Restrictions on how many people you have to dinner is a first-world 21st centuiry problem. Not having half the people in your city killed by enemy action (one relative starved in the siege of Leningrad), not having the whole of Asia enslaved (another was executed after capture by the Japanese) were 20th century problems. I have no idea what my lost relatives would have thought about dinner party restrictions. But we do not represent our lost families fairly by calling them in aid to whatever political thoughts we may be having. Let's all give WW2 parallels a rest except in cases of actual mass murder.
I agree. Everybody does it though.
I've heard neo-Nazis saying that the cold war means that Hitler was right, Communists saying that the Soviet Union won it single-handedly, the French pretending they liberated themselves, British Conservatives saying that 1940 is all that matters, British socialists saying that it somehow validates state intervention in everything. Brexiteers say it shows we can go it alone, Remainers say that the Polish pilots in Fighter Command show we need Europe ....
However, I don't think there's the slightest chance that people will stop referring to be bits of it that suit whatever point they're pushing. World War 2 is such a vast subject that you can get more or less whatever moral you want out of it anyway.
Another couple having a look around our house. We had a buyer for all of 3 days - we accepted an offer. Then lockdown & Sunak and the lass suddenly is likely to lose her job so she pulled out. I also went up to Aberdeenshire this week to have a look at the house palace we want to buy. Should be mega stressful this house buying, but the happy pills leave me chilled out
Your property looks correctly priced if it's the one I think it is on Rightmove, it'll sell if there's anyone at all looking to buy a 3? bed semi in your area.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
No, the pubs situation has been to take away people's choice which is why it's a disaster. People who would go home from 10pm to midnight now all have to leave at 10pm and it's causing overcrowding in the transport system and on the streets.
Removing choice has never worked.
The pubs policy is a disaster I agree but the solution is now to close the pubs entirely.
No it isn't, that's a drastic overreaction which would put thousands of businesses and a million jobs in jeopardy. We just needed to enforce the rule of 6, have a proper contact tracing app and table service. It works in Italy and Germany.
I think there needed to be restrictions on household mixing. Its no good having 6 people round one day, a different 6 the next.
Also, i think there is this weird belief that you are safe if you are outside. It is definitely safer, but we have seen outbreaks from pub beer gardens. And i see it all the time, outside a shop, no masks, stand there chatting in a group, then they whip out their mask to then go into it.
No other country has fiddled about with rules for how many people we can meet where and when. That should tell us something
From Day 1 10% of the population have behaved irresponsibly, ignored the rules and not given a damn whether they spread the disease. This is nothing new. Don't assume that it is what the majority of people are doing.
Quite.
I have a friend, for example, who in between damning the government/scientists, invites likeminded friends and their families round for BBQs, parties etc. And has done through the lockdown.
Quite simply, he is one of those people who existence is affirmed by socialisation. If there isn't something happening with him at the centre, then he doesn't feel he exists.
Same for his holidays to slightly unusual destinations - a complex plot of air miles, vouchers and upgrades. Unless he has got his holiday to Guatemala (say), complete with discounts and upgrades, his life is part empty.
What is interesting, when talking to him, is how the blame slides off.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
You're assuming it would be over let alone over quickly.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
Economy is in the toilet already and long term all these things will be damaged more by COVID and its impacts if we don't get it under control now
Again you are both assuming that covid will go away with another lockdown and ignoring all the damage another lockdown would cause.
And no, the economy is not in the toilet - it has been damaged but is recovering. Another lockdown will cause more damage. That damage means people losing their jobs.
Why should people lose their jobs, why should people's health be damaged, why should the young have the education disrupted just so that fat slobs have a slightly reduced chance of dying in the next few months ?
LibDem lead thanks to passing our new Universal Basic Income policy
LibDem conference has just passed a motion making LibDem policy federalism rather than devolution for the UK. I.e. power given upwards rather than downwards. Distinct from Tory and Labour positions and might appeal more in Scotland and Wales.
What level of UBI are they talking about.
One way that the politicians love to row back on UBI, is on the universality. Keep lots of there benefits to fiddle with...
My view is a single replacement for
1) The tax free allowance 2) Benefit 3) State pension
Paid monthly, directly by the state.
The key is removing conditionality. It is for everyone, regardless of wealth or income, like access to the NHS or schools. Of course much of it it will be clawed back from the well-off by taxation.
I agree there shouldn't be lots of additional means-tested benefits. Keep it simple.
The LibDem vote was on a policy motion i.e. the principle of UBI. The detailed proposals on the level and financing of it will come much later in a costed manifesto for the next election.
LibDem lead thanks to passing our new Universal Basic Income policy
LibDem conference has just passed a motion making LibDem policy federalism rather than devolution for the UK. I.e. power given upwards rather than downwards. Distinct from Tory and Labour positions and might appeal more in Scotland and Wales.
What level of UBI are they talking about.
One way that the politicians love to row back on UBI, is on the universality. Keep lots of there benefits to fiddle with...
My view is a single replacement for
1) The tax free allowance 2) Benefit 3) State pension
Paid monthly, directly by the state.
If it replaces all benefits, then it would have to be high enough to live on, and take into account children, disabilities etc.
You've then created a non-means tested universal benefit. Very brave
From Day 1 10% of the population have behaved irresponsibly, ignored the rules and not given a damn whether they spread the disease. This is nothing new. Don't assume that it is what the majority of people are doing.
Quite.
I have a friend, for example, who in between damning the government/scientists, invites likeminded friends and their families round for BBQs, parties etc. And has done through the lockdown.
Quite simply, he is one of those people who existence is affirmed by socialisation. If there isn't something happening with him at the centre, then he doesn't feel he exists.
Same for his holidays to slightly unusual destinations - a complex plot of air miles, vouchers and upgrades. Unless he has got his holiday to Guatemala (say), complete with discounts and upgrades, his life is part empty.
What is interesting, when talking to him, is how the blame slides off.
Clearly you know Sean better than the rest of us
Ha.
No. It interesting to see such fault lines in people. Someone who is generous to a fault, outgoing, friendly, helpful etc. suddenly fractures selfishly (in effect) on the issue of self isolation.
I'm told by a trick cyclist of my aquaintance that this isn't uncommon - it's to do with how people measure their self image internally, IIRC.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
You're assuming it would be over let alone over quickly.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
Economy is in the toilet already and long term all these things will be damaged more by COVID and its impacts if we don't get it under control now
Again you are both assuming that covid will go away with another lockdown and ignoring all the damage another lockdown would cause.
And no, the economy is not in the toilet - it has been damaged but is recovering. Another lockdown will cause more damage. That damage means people losing their jobs.
Why should people lose their jobs, why should people's health be damaged, why should the young have the education disrupted just so that fat slobs have a slightly reduced chance of dying in the next few months ?
The economy is not recovering now COVID is going back up again
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
You're assuming it would be over let alone over quickly.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
Economy is in the toilet already and long term all these things will be damaged more by COVID and its impacts if we don't get it under control now
Again you are both assuming that covid will go away with another lockdown and ignoring all the damage another lockdown would cause.
And no, the economy is not in the toilet - it has been damaged but is recovering. Another lockdown will cause more damage. That damage means people losing their jobs.
Why should people lose their jobs, why should people's health be damaged, why should the young have the education disrupted just so that fat slobs have a slightly reduced chance of dying in the next few months ?
How much do you think the economy would be affected by the policy of doing nothing?
LibDem lead thanks to passing our new Universal Basic Income policy
LibDem conference has just passed a motion making LibDem policy federalism rather than devolution for the UK. I.e. power given upwards rather than downwards. Distinct from Tory and Labour positions and might appeal more in Scotland and Wales.
What level of UBI are they talking about.
One way that the politicians love to row back on UBI, is on the universality. Keep lots of there benefits to fiddle with...
My view is a single replacement for
1) The tax free allowance 2) Benefit 3) State pension
Paid monthly, directly by the state.
If it replaces all benefits, then it would have to be high enough to live on, and take into account children, disabilities etc.
You've then created a non-means tested universal benefit. Very brave
I havent studied the LD policy, but surely the logic is to hand it to everyone and take it back in tax from the majority who don't need it Link the system to electoral registration, and another problem solved
I am sitting here in warm sunshine high above Bergamo with a hundred mile view from the terrace of a Michelin starred restaurant, and nothing I am reading here makes me want to hurry home. Sadly on Monday we will be heading north
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
You're assuming it would be over let alone over quickly.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
Economy is in the toilet already and long term all these things will be damaged more by COVID and its impacts if we don't get it under control now
Again you are both assuming that covid will go away with another lockdown and ignoring all the damage another lockdown would cause.
And no, the economy is not in the toilet - it has been damaged but is recovering. Another lockdown will cause more damage. That damage means people losing their jobs.
Why should people lose their jobs, why should people's health be damaged, why should the young have the education disrupted just so that fat slobs have a slightly reduced chance of dying in the next few months ?
The economy is not recovering now COVID is going back up again
You are obsessed.
You seem unwilling to accept that life is about trade-offs.
Education, health, the economy and society in general are all to be ruined by an authoritarian obsession with covid.
From Day 1 10% of the population have behaved irresponsibly, ignored the rules and not given a damn whether they spread the disease. This is nothing new. Don't assume that it is what the majority of people are doing.
Quite.
I have a friend, for example, who in between damning the government/scientists, invites likeminded friends and their families round for BBQs, parties etc. And has done through the lockdown.
Quite simply, he is one of those people who existence is affirmed by socialisation. If there isn't something happening with him at the centre, then he doesn't feel he exists.
Same for his holidays to slightly unusual destinations - a complex plot of air miles, vouchers and upgrades. Unless he has got his holiday to Guatemala (say), complete with discounts and upgrades, his life is part empty.
What is interesting, when talking to him, is how the blame slides off.
Clearly you know Sean better than the rest of us
Ha.
No. It interesting to see such fault lines in people. Someone who is generous to a fault, outgoing, friendly, helpful etc. suddenly fractures selfishly (in effect) on the issue of self isolation.
I'm told by a trick cyclist of my aquaintance that this isn't uncommon - it's to do with how people measure their self image internally, IIRC.
Does he have any good tips for free upgrades?
Asking for a friend. Who happens to be going to Mexico next month.
LibDem lead thanks to passing our new Universal Basic Income policy
LibDem conference has just passed a motion making LibDem policy federalism rather than devolution for the UK. I.e. power given upwards rather than downwards. Distinct from Tory and Labour positions and might appeal more in Scotland and Wales.
What level of UBI are they talking about.
One way that the politicians love to row back on UBI, is on the universality. Keep lots of there benefits to fiddle with...
My view is a single replacement for
1) The tax free allowance 2) Benefit 3) State pension
Paid monthly, directly by the state.
The key is removing conditionality. It is for everyone, regardless of wealth or income, like access to the NHS or schools. Of course much of it it will be clawed back from the well-off by taxation.
I agree there shouldn't be lots of additional means-tested benefits. Keep it simple.
The LibDem vote was on a policy motion i.e. the principle of UBI. The detailed proposals on the level and financing of it will come much later in a costed manifesto for the next election.
The problem that will occur, then, is this - In the policy drafting stages, lots of special interests will start adding in exemptions for their "pet" benefit.
After a few rounds, UBI will just be another benefit.
I call this phenomenon "NASA glove syndrome" - every year NASA invites designs, experiments etc on space suit gloves. Every year (these days) gloves based on the mechanical counter pressure concept win. Every year these ideas are "fixed" by the existing space suit mafia. Who reject all counter pressure systems on principle.
The resulting impasse is part of the reason that NASA can't field new space suits.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
You're assuming it would be over let alone over quickly.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
Economy is in the toilet already and long term all these things will be damaged more by COVID and its impacts if we don't get it under control now
Again you are both assuming that covid will go away with another lockdown and ignoring all the damage another lockdown would cause.
And no, the economy is not in the toilet - it has been damaged but is recovering. Another lockdown will cause more damage. That damage means people losing their jobs.
Why should people lose their jobs, why should people's health be damaged, why should the young have the education disrupted just so that fat slobs have a slightly reduced chance of dying in the next few months ?
The economy is not recovering now COVID is going back up again
You are obsessed.
You seem unwilling to accept that life is about trade-offs.
Education, health, the economy and society in general are all to be ruined by an authoritarian obsession with covid.
If we do nothing, the virus is going to get worse, kill thousands of people and it's going to destroy the economy. I am not willing to let that happen
It looks like the LibDems are going for distinctive, even risky, policies that are different for the other parties. Universal Basic Income, decriminalising possession of drugs, bottom up federalism.
The common factor is supporting personal autonomy - taking back control at a personal level. With many people feeling they no longer have control over their lives it could be a popular underlying theme for the LibDems. That's what the LibDems are for - helping you take back control of your life.
From Day 1 10% of the population have behaved irresponsibly, ignored the rules and not given a damn whether they spread the disease. This is nothing new. Don't assume that it is what the majority of people are doing.
Quite.
I have a friend, for example, who in between damning the government/scientists, invites likeminded friends and their families round for BBQs, parties etc. And has done through the lockdown.
Quite simply, he is one of those people who existence is affirmed by socialisation. If there isn't something happening with him at the centre, then he doesn't feel he exists.
Same for his holidays to slightly unusual destinations - a complex plot of air miles, vouchers and upgrades. Unless he has got his holiday to Guatemala (say), complete with discounts and upgrades, his life is part empty.
What is interesting, when talking to him, is how the blame slides off.
Clearly you know Sean better than the rest of us
Ha.
No. It interesting to see such fault lines in people. Someone who is generous to a fault, outgoing, friendly, helpful etc. suddenly fractures selfishly (in effect) on the issue of self isolation.
I'm told by a trick cyclist of my aquaintance that this isn't uncommon - it's to do with how people measure their self image internally, IIRC.
Does he have any good tips for free upgrades?
Asking for a friend. Who happens to be going to Mexico next month.
Without asking him, it involves juggling your flights to optimise air miles, and taking advantage of various credit card air mile offers. Multiplier offers are apparently a big thing.
One trick is to pick a suitable credit card(s) and put all your spending through that - even if you have the cash in hand.
I knew a chap who fell down that rabbit hole and got caught doing the following - loading his prepay credit card (Revolut type thing) from his premium credit card. Lots of spending. Then transferring the money from his pre-pay to his bank account and from there paying the balance on his credit card. A washing machine for air miles. And, I believe, fraudulent.
This 10PM curfew nonsense is going to do absolutely sod all and we're going to have to get tougher.
Close the pubs completely, seems the next step
For whatever reason Boris is following the same racheting up as March i.e. here are some new rules, please try and modify your behaviour, because if you don't I will have to ground you.
I don't get it. I would have banned things household mixing.
The problem now is that we will never have the same following of the rules we had in the past.
This is why opening up so quickly was a poor decision and I think I said so at the time.
They should have stuck with outdoor meeting in small groups and left it at that.
The increase in infections are directly caused by the return of schools and universities.
You could shut down the rest of the country and that infection increase would still have happened.
Then shut down the schools as well then.
I think we're headed for a full lockdown anyway
What level of infections and deaths are you prepared to accept rather than having a full lockdown ?
And how much damage to people's health, the economy and society in general from a full lockdown are you prepared to accept ?
Well if we continue as we are we're headed for a repeat of March.
The R consistently below 1 and cases not rising would be a good start, so let's get back to where we were sometime in June. Just after the first lockdown - and then keep the rules strictly in place.
I would have a full second lockdown and then allow only meetings outdoors for a while
If things continue - though actually the rate of increase is much slower than in March and is also concentrated among the least vulnerable.
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Things are not very different to March.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
But not all exponentially is the same - they vary depending on the initial starting point and the rate of increase.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
Choice and responsibility in Britain will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and the NHS getting overwhelmed.
I doubt it.
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Choice and responsibility with the new pubs curfew has made the situation worse and not better.
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
Some people don't follow the rules, that's always been the case.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
We're already in a hole - and it's getting worse.
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
You're assuming it would be over let alone over quickly.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
Economy is in the toilet already and long term all these things will be damaged more by COVID and its impacts if we don't get it under control now
Again you are both assuming that covid will go away with another lockdown and ignoring all the damage another lockdown would cause.
And no, the economy is not in the toilet - it has been damaged but is recovering. Another lockdown will cause more damage. That damage means people losing their jobs.
Why should people lose their jobs, why should people's health be damaged, why should the young have the education disrupted just so that fat slobs have a slightly reduced chance of dying in the next few months ?
The economy is not recovering now COVID is going back up again
You are obsessed.
You seem unwilling to accept that life is about trade-offs.
Education, health, the economy and society in general are all to be ruined by an authoritarian obsession with covid.
If we do nothing, the virus is going to get worse, kill thousands of people and it's going to destroy the economy. I am not willing to let that happen
Haven't you noticed the negligible death rate amongst those of economically active age?
Comments
Plus some things are very different to March - knowledge about infection and treatment are greater, there is no PPE problem, testing is almost infinitely superior and hopefully more care is being taken with care homes.
And with a lockdown comes costs - cost to people's health, costs to the economy, costs to education, costs to society as a whole.
That's a trade off people need to be open about and willing to accept.
Cases are rising exponentially so given enough time we will be back to where we were in March.
What would you like to do?
Friedman also described Trump’s recent comments as a “six-alarm fire.” "
The Hill
So when you say Boris
You mean Boris Yeltsin
And that wishful thinking starts at the top.
And September is very different to March in those respects.
What I support is giving people advice and guidelines but letting them have choice and responsibility.
And if that leads to people getting infected then that is what will happen with the benefit of greater herd immunity to those people who make more careful choices.
If it were me in that position now, I’d be the one working out how to find someone who’ll deliver a case of vodka, a case of coca-cola and a case of Pringles. A house full of freshers can happily live for a fortnight on that!
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/richard-and-judy/1340247/coronavirus-lockdown-second-wave-boris-johnson-restrictions
By far the best tech purchase I've made.
NYTimes
But its time for more choice and responsibility.
We cannot damage people's health, the education of the young, the economy and society as a whole to save fat slobs who have done nothing to improve their health and lifestyle during the last six months.
Who'd want the bloody job?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/26/our-first-case-of-covid-parents-are-hounding-me-staff-are-afraid-diary-of-a-headteachers-week
We don't follow the rules, that is the problem. And that's why comparisons to Sweden are pointless, because they follow their rules.
We need another lockdown.
But most do - which is why people now wear masks in shops whereas they didn't before the rule changed.
By having another lockdown you damage people's health, you damage the education of the young, you damage the economy, you damage society as a whole.
And its the people who follow the rules who would be damaged, not those who break the rules.
How much damage are you prepared to do ?
May as well get the inevitable hard job over quickly.
Removing choice has never worked.
...
One teacher nervous about possible contact has never knowingly met the child, but is keen to self-isolate regardless. This is the same member of staff I had to speak to sternly on the first day back because of enthusiastic hugging of colleagues.
But I think you're wrong to say it was all that was needed. I think lockdown 2.0 is inevitable, now it seems to be I think.
I think you're probably right to say we should have enforced the rule of 6 longer - but I would have enforced that from when we came out of the original lockdown, or even a smaller number, starting with visits outside only and then moving to indoors only if it was safe.
Good, hopefully this reduces the impact of UNITE.
I am a Union supporter but not whist McCluskey continues to run things
Also, i think there is this weird belief that you are safe if you are outside. It is definitely safer, but we have seen outbreaks from pub beer gardens. And i see it all the time, outside a shop, no masks, stand there chatting in a group, then they whip out their mask to then go into it.
I have a friend, for example, who in between damning the government/scientists, invites likeminded friends and their families round for BBQs, parties etc. And has done through the lockdown.
Quite simply, he is one of those people who existence is affirmed by socialisation. If there isn't something happening with him at the centre, then he doesn't feel he exists.
Same for his holidays to slightly unusual destinations - a complex plot of air miles, vouchers and upgrades. Unless he has got his holiday to Guatemala (say), complete with discounts and upgrades, his life is part empty.
What is interesting, when talking to him, is how the blame slides off.
And for that you seem to be prepared to accept any level of damage to people's health, to the education of the young, to the economy and to society as whole.
In 99% of them, small groups, multiple metres apart.
housepalace we want to buy. Should be mega stressful this house buying, but the happy pills leave me chilled outOne way that the politicians love to row back on UBI, is on the universality. Keep lots of there benefits to fiddle with...
My view is a single replacement for
1) The tax free allowance
2) Benefit
3) State pension
Paid monthly, directly by the state.
I've heard neo-Nazis saying that the cold war means that Hitler was right, Communists saying that the Soviet Union won it single-handedly, the French pretending they liberated themselves, British Conservatives saying that 1940 is all that matters, British socialists saying that it somehow validates state intervention in everything. Brexiteers say it shows we can go it alone, Remainers say that the Polish pilots in Fighter Command show we need Europe ....
However, I don't think there's the slightest chance that people will stop referring to be bits of it that suit whatever point they're pushing. World War 2 is such a vast subject that you can get more or less whatever moral you want out of it anyway.
And no, the economy is not in the toilet - it has been damaged but is recovering. Another lockdown will cause more damage. That damage means people losing their jobs.
Why should people lose their jobs, why should people's health be damaged, why should the young have the education disrupted just so that fat slobs have a slightly reduced chance of dying in the next few months ?
I agree there shouldn't be lots of additional means-tested benefits. Keep it simple.
The LibDem vote was on a policy motion i.e. the principle of UBI. The detailed proposals on the level and financing of it will come much later in a costed manifesto for the next election.
You've then created a non-means tested universal benefit. Very brave
No. It interesting to see such fault lines in people. Someone who is generous to a fault, outgoing, friendly, helpful etc. suddenly fractures selfishly (in effect) on the issue of self isolation.
I'm told by a trick cyclist of my aquaintance that this isn't uncommon - it's to do with how people measure their self image internally, IIRC.
Link the system to electoral registration, and another problem solved
You seem unwilling to accept that life is about trade-offs.
Education, health, the economy and society in general are all to be ruined by an authoritarian obsession with covid.
Asking for a friend. Who happens to be going to Mexico next month.
After a few rounds, UBI will just be another benefit.
I call this phenomenon "NASA glove syndrome" - every year NASA invites designs, experiments etc on space suit gloves. Every year (these days) gloves based on the mechanical counter pressure concept win. Every year these ideas are "fixed" by the existing space suit mafia. Who reject all counter pressure systems on principle.
The resulting impasse is part of the reason that NASA can't field new space suits.
The common factor is supporting personal autonomy - taking back control at a personal level. With many people feeling they no longer have control over their lives it could be a popular underlying theme for the LibDems. That's what the LibDems are for - helping you take back control of your life.
One trick is to pick a suitable credit card(s) and put all your spending through that - even if you have the cash in hand.
I knew a chap who fell down that rabbit hole and got caught doing the following - loading his prepay credit card (Revolut type thing) from his premium credit card. Lots of spending. Then transferring the money from his pre-pay to his bank account and from there paying the balance on his credit card. A washing machine for air miles. And, I believe, fraudulent.
"In the words of Nobel economist Chris Pissarides, we are witnessing one of the worst policy mistakes in British economic history."
Telegraph.