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Biden’s national poll lead remains and the swing state surveys are looking positive – politicalbetti

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 19,570
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    eristdoof said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    I have said all along that the "Stay at home" "Protect the NHS" was a dangerous one. It is an appalling situation that this sick patient was never assessed face to face. A very depressing tale for a morning:

    "Stay at home" and "Protect the NHS" are both good instructions, but both at the same time
    "Stay at home to protect the NHS" was a huge mistake. As I've mentioned a couple of times, I'm very glad this was not the mantra in Germany.
    The intense focus on protecting the NHS was a direct response to watching the tragedy that unfolded here in Bergamo. What it misses is that protecting the NHS is a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

    Some of the actions taken to protect the NHS, such as clearing elderly patients into care homes without testing, proved highly damaging to what should have been the ‘end’, being protecting people and patients.
    I think there are pretty low limits on how safe telephone assessment is, particularly when being done by a call handler with little or no clinical experience, just an algorithm. There needs to be escalation to more senior people for repeat callers.

    The government has been deprofessionalising my calling for years, and too many doctors have collaborated with the rise of poorly supervised non medical clinicians.
    Do you have similar concerns about video call appointments with doctors or is it just phone with call handlers? To me video appointments with a doctor seem a big part of the future and something that can be arranged at no more cost than current arrangements and give quicker access to patients.
    Various bits of remote assessment can work well, but the dynamics of a consultation and examination are needed for good medical practice. Good GPs are very astute at these, and can pick up when a minor complaint is the tip of a clinical iceberg. Addiction and mental health issues often present as minor physical health issues for example.

    The argument for telemedicine is really one of efficiency and convenience for both parties rather than the quality of care. There needs to be some trade off, but we should recognise what we are losing too.
    About 20 months ago now I was feeling very under the weather with a series of fairly unspecific symptoms. It got so bad my wife pushed me into going to see my GP for the first time in several years. We had a chat and he just looked at me. He said, you're never here, I really think we need to look into this. He sent me to the hospital for tests and I got a phone call telling me to leave a court case and report to the hospital immediately. Apparently I had clots on my lungs and one was impacting on my heart.

    I am very grateful for his attention and alertness but I honestly do not believe this would have happened on a video consultation. When I do these with my own work you just don't get the same level of feedback, its much harder to be confident that the client understands what you are saying and is making a properly informed choice. I think doctors, especially those dealing with chronic conditions, would find it even harder.
    Yes, this is very much the sort of thing that good clinical intuition and experience catches.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,637
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Condolences Dura_Ace.

    A very good point made in sorrow too about the importance of hygiene for protecting others not just yourself.

    One thing that we have learned over the first wave is the danger of silent hypoxia. If any PBer didn't buy one in the first wave, then it perhaps a good time to get one. They are on Amazon with next day delivery from a variety of suppliers. As essential as a thermometer for Covid-19.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeters&sprefix=pulse&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-ap-p_1_5
    I got one on your recommendation a couple of months ago.
    Likewise.

    After a couple of test runs it is now back in its box and put away. Hoping it stays there.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    So I finally know somebody who has died from covid, sadly it was my 81 year old mother.

    She fell over in her garden a couple of weeks ago, went to hospital for a precautionary x-ray, caught the rona there and was dead 11 days later.

    I mention this not to solicit sympathy or commiserations but make two illustrative points. To those who advocate letting it rip because it mainly affects older people I offer a hearty FUCK YOU. Secondly, my mother was usually very careful with hygiene, etc but obviously not careful enough so it behooves us all to take all sensible precautions at all times and never relent.

    So sorry to hear that :(
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,866

    @Philip_Thompson the claim that any other country would want to copy our testing regime is very funny.

    Considering we're testing more per capita than any other large country on the entire planet, I don't see the joke.
    For the resources we’ve thrown at it, our testing is deeply unimpressive.
    We could be doing a far better job.

    And what ‘world beating’ regime have we developed ?
    The new rapid antigen tests aren’t from here; pooled testing was successfully implemented months ago but several countries; there are literally dozens of new testing modalities being looked at - how many British ones have been deployed ?
    Even the swabs come from Italy.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 7,846
    edited September 23
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    eristdoof said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    I have said all along that the "Stay at home" "Protect the NHS" was a dangerous one. It is an appalling situation that this sick patient was never assessed face to face. A very depressing tale for a morning:

    "Stay at home" and "Protect the NHS" are both good instructions, but both at the same time
    "Stay at home to protect the NHS" was a huge mistake. As I've mentioned a couple of times, I'm very glad this was not the mantra in Germany.
    The intense focus on protecting the NHS was a direct response to watching the tragedy that unfolded here in Bergamo. What it misses is that protecting the NHS is a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

    Some of the actions taken to protect the NHS, such as clearing elderly patients into care homes without testing, proved highly damaging to what should have been the ‘end’, being protecting people and patients.
    I think there are pretty low limits on how safe telephone assessment is, particularly when being done by a call handler with little or no clinical experience, just an algorithm. There needs to be escalation to more senior people for repeat callers.

    The government has been deprofessionalising my calling for years, and too many doctors have collaborated with the rise of poorly supervised non medical clinicians.
    Do you have similar concerns about video call appointments with doctors or is it just phone with call handlers? To me video appointments with a doctor seem a big part of the future and something that can be arranged at no more cost than current arrangements and give quicker access to patients.
    Various bits of remote assessment can work well, but the dynamics of a consultation and examination are needed for good medical practice. Good GPs are very astute at these, and can pick up when a minor complaint is the tip of a clinical iceberg. Addiction and mental health issues often present as minor physical health issues for example.

    The argument for telemedicine is really one of efficiency and convenience for both parties rather than the quality of care. There needs to be some trade off, but we should recognise what we are losing too.
    About 20 months ago now I was feeling very under the weather with a series of fairly unspecific symptoms. It got so bad my wife pushed me into going to see my GP for the first time in several years. We had a chat and he just looked at me. He said, you're never here, I really think we need to look into this. He sent me to the hospital for tests and I got a phone call telling me to leave a court case and report to the hospital immediately. Apparently I had clots on my lungs and one was impacting on my heart.

    I am very grateful for his attention and alertness but I honestly do not believe this would have happened on a video consultation. When I do these with my own work you just don't get the same level of feedback, its much harder to be confident that the client understands what you are saying and is making a properly informed choice. I think doctors, especially those dealing with chronic conditions, would find it even harder.
    Sorry to hear that, hope things resolve.

    Surely if the clue was your not having contacted the doctor about anything for ages, the same clue would have triggered had you suddenly requested a video cons?
    Oh I'm fine, have been for ages. But I am not sure about the clues. When I was doing advocacy training we were taught that 93% of communication was non verbal. It is a ridiculously precise number and probably too high but there is something about seeing the whole person, how they move, how they are holding themselves, that can give clues as to whether they are lying (in my cases) or whether they are really unwell.

    Video is a lot better than telephone. I have done remote court hearings by both now and telephone is hopeless for anything more than procedural stuff. But it is still way short of being able to read your decision maker properly.
    Whatever cues the doctor is picking up from you, AI based on millions of video patient interviews, together with some home diagnostics, and what happens to them afterwards will quickly (as in years rather than decades) catch up and surpass.

    Also many people who wouldnt bother going to a doctor would do a video GP appointment.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 1,561

    Nigelb said:

    Fantastic work by the British government on getting early access on vaccines.

    And I couldn't care less about reports about developed countries getting access to the vaccines first. No shit Sherlock, we as developed nations also developed the vaccines and will no doubt for a while now be using our aid budgets, charity, foundations etc to pay for vaccines in the less developed world.

    Any time you fly you get told if the oxygen mask drops put your own mask on first and then assist with others. Same thing here.
    Though we are quite happy to use their outbreaks for our clinical trials.

    The UK has actually been pretty good participating in international efforts to fund and distribute vaccines.
    Trump is, unsurprisingly, acting like an arse.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/01/us-covid-19-vaccine-refuses-international-effort-coronavirus
    Guardian doesn’t mention that neither France (which impounded the NHS’ mask order early in the pandemic) nor Germany are taking part in COVAX either....
    AFAIK both France and Germany are contributing to COVAX, as is the EU additionally. But they are buying vaccines through the EU pooled scheme.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,316
    Dura_Ace said:

    So I finally know somebody who has died from covid, sadly it was my 81 year old mother.

    She fell over in her garden a couple of weeks ago, went to hospital for a precautionary x-ray, caught the rona there and was dead 11 days later.

    I mention this not to solicit sympathy or commiserations but make two illustrative points. To those who advocate letting it rip because it mainly affects older people I offer a hearty FUCK YOU. Secondly, my mother was usually very careful with hygiene, etc but obviously not careful enough so it behooves us all to take all sensible precautions at all times and never relent.

    Very sorry for your loss.

    Please accept my condolences.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,332
    Dura_Ace said:

    So I finally know somebody who has died from covid, sadly it was my 81 year old mother.

    She fell over in her garden a couple of weeks ago, went to hospital for a precautionary x-ray, caught the rona there and was dead 11 days later.

    I mention this not to solicit sympathy or commiserations but make two illustrative points. To those who advocate letting it rip because it mainly affects older people I offer a hearty FUCK YOU. Secondly, my mother was usually very careful with hygiene, etc but obviously not careful enough so it behooves us all to take all sensible precautions at all times and never relent.

    So very sorry to hear that. All best wishes to you.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591
    Nigelb said:

    @Philip_Thompson the claim that any other country would want to copy our testing regime is very funny.

    Considering we're testing more per capita than any other large country on the entire planet, I don't see the joke.
    For the resources we’ve thrown at it, our testing is deeply unimpressive.
    We could be doing a far better job.

    And what ‘world beating’ regime have we developed ?
    The new rapid antigen tests aren’t from here; pooled testing was successfully implemented months ago but several countries; there are literally dozens of new testing modalities being looked at - how many British ones have been deployed ?
    Even the swabs come from Italy.
    I find the need of many to assume that we are somehow uniquely incompetent or inept every bit as depressing and occasionally irritating as those booming out that we have the best of this and that for no good reason other than to make themselves and presumably us feel better. Surely we can just recognise the realities with a certain humility and look to learn lessons from others where appropriate as I hope they learn from us.



  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,355

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    eristdoof said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    I have said all along that the "Stay at home" "Protect the NHS" was a dangerous one. It is an appalling situation that this sick patient was never assessed face to face. A very depressing tale for a morning:

    "Stay at home" and "Protect the NHS" are both good instructions, but both at the same time
    "Stay at home to protect the NHS" was a huge mistake. As I've mentioned a couple of times, I'm very glad this was not the mantra in Germany.
    The intense focus on protecting the NHS was a direct response to watching the tragedy that unfolded here in Bergamo. What it misses is that protecting the NHS is a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

    Some of the actions taken to protect the NHS, such as clearing elderly patients into care homes without testing, proved highly damaging to what should have been the ‘end’, being protecting people and patients.
    I think there are pretty low limits on how safe telephone assessment is, particularly when being done by a call handler with little or no clinical experience, just an algorithm. There needs to be escalation to more senior people for repeat callers.

    The government has been deprofessionalising my calling for years, and too many doctors have collaborated with the rise of poorly supervised non medical clinicians.
    Do you have similar concerns about video call appointments with doctors or is it just phone with call handlers? To me video appointments with a doctor seem a big part of the future and something that can be arranged at no more cost than current arrangements and give quicker access to patients.
    Various bits of remote assessment can work well, but the dynamics of a consultation and examination are needed for good medical practice. Good GPs are very astute at these, and can pick up when a minor complaint is the tip of a clinical iceberg. Addiction and mental health issues often present as minor physical health issues for example.

    The argument for telemedicine is really one of efficiency and convenience for both parties rather than the quality of care. There needs to be some trade off, but we should recognise what we are losing too.
    About 20 months ago now I was feeling very under the weather with a series of fairly unspecific symptoms. It got so bad my wife pushed me into going to see my GP for the first time in several years. We had a chat and he just looked at me. He said, you're never here, I really think we need to look into this. He sent me to the hospital for tests and I got a phone call telling me to leave a court case and report to the hospital immediately. Apparently I had clots on my lungs and one was impacting on my heart.

    I am very grateful for his attention and alertness but I honestly do not believe this would have happened on a video consultation. When I do these with my own work you just don't get the same level of feedback, its much harder to be confident that the client understands what you are saying and is making a properly informed choice. I think doctors, especially those dealing with chronic conditions, would find it even harder.
    Sorry to hear that, hope things resolve.

    Surely if the clue was your not having contacted the doctor about anything for ages, the same clue would have triggered had you suddenly requested a video cons?
    Oh I'm fine, have been for ages. But I am not sure about the clues. When I was doing advocacy training we were taught that 93% of communication was non verbal. It is a ridiculously precise number and probably too high but there is something about seeing the whole person, how they move, how they are holding themselves, that can give clues as to whether they are lying (in my cases) or whether they are really unwell.

    Video is a lot better than telephone. I have done remote court hearings by both now and telephone is hopeless for anything more than procedural stuff. But it is still way short of being able to read your decision maker properly.
    Whatever cues the doctor is picking up from you, AI based on millions of video patient interviews, together with some home diagnostics, and what happens to them afterwards will quickly (as in years rather than decades) catch up and surpass.

    Also many people who wouldnt bother going to a doctor would do a video GP appointment.
    For some conditions, the gp has a pretty good idea what’s wrong from the smell of the patient when they enter the room. AI can’t match that.

    With fancy new technology you have to ask what problem are they really trying to solve. By replacing, rather that supporting medics and enhancing what they can do you have to suspect that it is more about cost savings than better outcomes.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 1,414

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    eristdoof said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    I have said all along that the "Stay at home" "Protect the NHS" was a dangerous one. It is an appalling situation that this sick patient was never assessed face to face. A very depressing tale for a morning:

    "Stay at home" and "Protect the NHS" are both good instructions, but both at the same time
    "Stay at home to protect the NHS" was a huge mistake. As I've mentioned a couple of times, I'm very glad this was not the mantra in Germany.
    The intense focus on protecting the NHS was a direct response to watching the tragedy that unfolded here in Bergamo. What it misses is that protecting the NHS is a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

    Some of the actions taken to protect the NHS, such as clearing elderly patients into care homes without testing, proved highly damaging to what should have been the ‘end’, being protecting people and patients.
    I think there are pretty low limits on how safe telephone assessment is, particularly when being done by a call handler with little or no clinical experience, just an algorithm. There needs to be escalation to more senior people for repeat callers.

    The government has been deprofessionalising my calling for years, and too many doctors have collaborated with the rise of poorly supervised non medical clinicians.
    Do you have similar concerns about video call appointments with doctors or is it just phone with call handlers? To me video appointments with a doctor seem a big part of the future and something that can be arranged at no more cost than current arrangements and give quicker access to patients.
    Various bits of remote assessment can work well, but the dynamics of a consultation and examination are needed for good medical practice. Good GPs are very astute at these, and can pick up when a minor complaint is the tip of a clinical iceberg. Addiction and mental health issues often present as minor physical health issues for example.

    The argument for telemedicine is really one of efficiency and convenience for both parties rather than the quality of care. There needs to be some trade off, but we should recognise what we are losing too.
    About 20 months ago now I was feeling very under the weather with a series of fairly unspecific symptoms. It got so bad my wife pushed me into going to see my GP for the first time in several years. We had a chat and he just looked at me. He said, you're never here, I really think we need to look into this. He sent me to the hospital for tests and I got a phone call telling me to leave a court case and report to the hospital immediately. Apparently I had clots on my lungs and one was impacting on my heart.

    I am very grateful for his attention and alertness but I honestly do not believe this would have happened on a video consultation. When I do these with my own work you just don't get the same level of feedback, its much harder to be confident that the client understands what you are saying and is making a properly informed choice. I think doctors, especially those dealing with chronic conditions, would find it even harder.
    Sorry to hear that, hope things resolve.

    Surely if the clue was your not having contacted the doctor about anything for ages, the same clue would have triggered had you suddenly requested a video cons?
    Oh I'm fine, have been for ages. But I am not sure about the clues. When I was doing advocacy training we were taught that 93% of communication was non verbal. It is a ridiculously precise number and probably too high but there is something about seeing the whole person, how they move, how they are holding themselves, that can give clues as to whether they are lying (in my cases) or whether they are really unwell.

    Video is a lot better than telephone. I have done remote court hearings by both now and telephone is hopeless for anything more than procedural stuff. But it is still way short of being able to read your decision maker properly.
    Whatever cues the doctor is picking up from you, AI based on millions of video patient interviews, together with some home diagnostics, and what happens to them afterwards will quickly (as in years rather than decades) catch up and surpass.

    Also many people who wouldnt bother going to a doctor would do a video GP appointment.
    My wife's friend who is a Practice Nurse experience is that as the nurses in her surgery are seeing people without a video consultation, patients are booking an appointment to see a nurse rather than do a video consultation with a doctor in the hope that the nurse will be able to help them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 4,407
    Dura_Ace said:



    And it does highlight just how vulnerable my wife, who is also 81, and I are to catching it due to an innocent hospital admission

    Take no chances, G, take no chances. Act as if everyone you meet has it.
    So sorry to hear about your mother.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 3,944

    Jonathan said:

    When it comes to COVID why do people want to be “world beating”? It’s a term we keep hearing. When you think about it, it’s just plain weird and self defeating.

    Surely when it comes to the development of vaccines we all have an interest in all countries succeeding. Surely when it comes to track and trace, there is nothing to be gained from having a better system then your neighbours. You need them all to be good, if they are not it presents a risk. If a country finds something that works you share it for the benefit of all.

    If the government simply aimed to discover, develop and implement the best possible protection for its citizens, we might do better.

    Because competition works Jonathan to make improvements.

    World beating things the UK has developed, like our best in the world testing capacity and our best in the world vaccine orders help develop testing procedures and vaccine capabilities that can apply elsewhere too.

    There absolutely is something to be gained from seeking to have a better system than your neighbours, both for you and your neighbours. Especially if they're trying to be the best too then they are innovating and improving which you can learn from. This doesn't mean sabotaging others.

    Competition is fantastic.
    There have also been many races to the bottom in the name of competition.
    Competition is fantastic in some situations but certainly not in all.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,316
    Pulpstar said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    So I finally know somebody who has died from covid, sadly it was my 81 year old mother.

    She fell over in her garden a couple of weeks ago, went to hospital for a precautionary x-ray, caught the rona there and was dead 11 days later.

    I mention this not to solicit sympathy or commiserations but make two illustrative points. To those who advocate letting it rip because it mainly affects older people I offer a hearty FUCK YOU. Secondly, my mother was usually very careful with hygiene, etc but obviously not careful enough so it behooves us all to take all sensible precautions at all times and never relent.

    Sorry for your loss.
    One area we've been genuinely world beating at, vaccines. I for one am glad to see us at the top of this chart
    I might take all seven of those.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    eristdoof said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    I have said all along that the "Stay at home" "Protect the NHS" was a dangerous one. It is an appalling situation that this sick patient was never assessed face to face. A very depressing tale for a morning:

    "Stay at home" and "Protect the NHS" are both good instructions, but both at the same time
    "Stay at home to protect the NHS" was a huge mistake. As I've mentioned a couple of times, I'm very glad this was not the mantra in Germany.
    The intense focus on protecting the NHS was a direct response to watching the tragedy that unfolded here in Bergamo. What it misses is that protecting the NHS is a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

    Some of the actions taken to protect the NHS, such as clearing elderly patients into care homes without testing, proved highly damaging to what should have been the ‘end’, being protecting people and patients.
    I think there are pretty low limits on how safe telephone assessment is, particularly when being done by a call handler with little or no clinical experience, just an algorithm. There needs to be escalation to more senior people for repeat callers.

    The government has been deprofessionalising my calling for years, and too many doctors have collaborated with the rise of poorly supervised non medical clinicians.
    Do you have similar concerns about video call appointments with doctors or is it just phone with call handlers? To me video appointments with a doctor seem a big part of the future and something that can be arranged at no more cost than current arrangements and give quicker access to patients.
    Various bits of remote assessment can work well, but the dynamics of a consultation and examination are needed for good medical practice. Good GPs are very astute at these, and can pick up when a minor complaint is the tip of a clinical iceberg. Addiction and mental health issues often present as minor physical health issues for example.

    The argument for telemedicine is really one of efficiency and convenience for both parties rather than the quality of care. There needs to be some trade off, but we should recognise what we are losing too.
    About 20 months ago now I was feeling very under the weather with a series of fairly unspecific symptoms. It got so bad my wife pushed me into going to see my GP for the first time in several years. We had a chat and he just looked at me. He said, you're never here, I really think we need to look into this. He sent me to the hospital for tests and I got a phone call telling me to leave a court case and report to the hospital immediately. Apparently I had clots on my lungs and one was impacting on my heart.

    I am very grateful for his attention and alertness but I honestly do not believe this would have happened on a video consultation. When I do these with my own work you just don't get the same level of feedback, its much harder to be confident that the client understands what you are saying and is making a properly informed choice. I think doctors, especially those dealing with chronic conditions, would find it even harder.
    Sorry to hear that, hope things resolve.

    Surely if the clue was your not having contacted the doctor about anything for ages, the same clue would have triggered had you suddenly requested a video cons?
    Oh I'm fine, have been for ages. But I am not sure about the clues. When I was doing advocacy training we were taught that 93% of communication was non verbal. It is a ridiculously precise number and probably too high but there is something about seeing the whole person, how they move, how they are holding themselves, that can give clues as to whether they are lying (in my cases) or whether they are really unwell.

    Video is a lot better than telephone. I have done remote court hearings by both now and telephone is hopeless for anything more than procedural stuff. But it is still way short of being able to read your decision maker properly.
    Whatever cues the doctor is picking up from you, AI based on millions of video patient interviews, together with some home diagnostics, and what happens to them afterwards will quickly (as in years rather than decades) catch up and surpass.

    Also many people who wouldnt bother going to a doctor would do a video GP appointment.
    Maybe, maybe, but not yet.
  • FFS people stop panic buying
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,821
    Nigelb said:

    @Philip_Thompson the claim that any other country would want to copy our testing regime is very funny.

    Considering we're testing more per capita than any other large country on the entire planet, I don't see the joke.
    For the resources we’ve thrown at it, our testing is deeply unimpressive.
    We could be doing a far better job.

    And what ‘world beating’ regime have we developed ?
    The new rapid antigen tests aren’t from here; pooled testing was successfully implemented months ago but several countries; there are literally dozens of new testing modalities being looked at - how many British ones have been deployed ?
    Even the swabs come from Italy.
    Yup, it comes from not having someone who know what they're doing in charge.

    We probably have the best antibody testing regime in the world too, but there's clearly no point in it because the testing hasn't been ramped up in those areas likely to see new outbreaks.

    At the moment, the testing just seems to be being wasted. We're adopting a siege mentality of repeatedly testing certain groups which now accounts fit 60-70% of overall capacity leaving community testing without enough resources to quickly see where the outbreaks are. Without the ability to find localised outbreaks, quarantine everyone in the area we're going to have a full second lockdown of "stay home" which will destroy the economy.

    On pooled testing, it seems like such an easy win for hospitals, schools and care homes. We could probably quadruple the capacity of P1 testing which frees up P2 for community testing.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,355
    eristdoof said:

    Jonathan said:

    When it comes to COVID why do people want to be “world beating”? It’s a term we keep hearing. When you think about it, it’s just plain weird and self defeating.

    Surely when it comes to the development of vaccines we all have an interest in all countries succeeding. Surely when it comes to track and trace, there is nothing to be gained from having a better system then your neighbours. You need them all to be good, if they are not it presents a risk. If a country finds something that works you share it for the benefit of all.

    If the government simply aimed to discover, develop and implement the best possible protection for its citizens, we might do better.

    Because competition works Jonathan to make improvements.

    World beating things the UK has developed, like our best in the world testing capacity and our best in the world vaccine orders help develop testing procedures and vaccine capabilities that can apply elsewhere too.

    There absolutely is something to be gained from seeking to have a better system than your neighbours, both for you and your neighbours. Especially if they're trying to be the best too then they are innovating and improving which you can learn from. This doesn't mean sabotaging others.

    Competition is fantastic.
    There have also been many races to the bottom in the name of competition.
    Competition is fantastic in some situations but certainly not in all.
    The point is that even if you think the COVID response is a competition you rarely win the competition by focusing on your competitors.

    I get the impression that this desire to be ‘world beating’ stems from the same lack of self confidence that brought us Brexit. The right are desperate to prove something.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 4,407
    Toms said:

    Foxy said:

    Condolences Dura_Ace.

    A very good point made in sorrow too about the importance of hygiene for protecting others not just yourself.

    One thing that we have learned over the first wave is the danger of silent hypoxia. If any PBer didn't buy one in the first wave, then it perhaps a good time to get one. They are on Amazon with next day delivery from a variety of suppliers. As essential as a thermometer for Covid-19.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeters&sprefix=pulse&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-ap-p_1_5
    I bought one from Amazon a few weeks ago fo about 35 quid. It can give readings of 80 percent or so to 99 percent within the space of a few minutes, especially if my hands aren't warm. Also, my blood pressure gadget can give readings of between 112/65 and, say, 130/65 within minutes. Well, I always have been highly strung. Humph.
    Are you sure you are never confusing the heart rate with the oxy reading? Sounds a fcking stupid question, but I sometimes do it myself if looking at it without glasses.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,821
    Dura_Ace said:

    So I finally know somebody who has died from covid, sadly it was my 81 year old mother.

    She fell over in her garden a couple of weeks ago, went to hospital for a precautionary x-ray, caught the rona there and was dead 11 days later.

    I mention this not to solicit sympathy or commiserations but make two illustrative points. To those who advocate letting it rip because it mainly affects older people I offer a hearty FUCK YOU. Secondly, my mother was usually very careful with hygiene, etc but obviously not careful enough so it behooves us all to take all sensible precautions at all times and never relent.

    Sorry for your loss.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,351
    Toms said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Toms said:

    Foxy said:

    Condolences Dura_Ace.

    A very good point made in sorrow too about the importance of hygiene for protecting others not just yourself.

    One thing that we have learned over the first wave is the danger of silent hypoxia. If any PBer didn't buy one in the first wave, then it perhaps a good time to get one. They are on Amazon with next day delivery from a variety of suppliers. As essential as a thermometer for Covid-19.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeters&sprefix=pulse&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-ap-p_1_5
    I bought one from Amazon a few weeks ago fo about 35 quid. It can give readings of 80 percent or so to 99 percent within the space of a few minutes, especially if my hands aren't warm. Also, my blood pressure gadget can give readings of between 112/65 and, say, 130/65 within minutes. Well, I always have been highly strung. Humph.
    You could try replacing the batteries.
    It seems to be a fairly common phenomenon that the readings start to go haywire if the batteries aren’t on good order.
    But the devices certainly aren’t infallible anyway.
    Thanks. I'll check, but I think they're OK. I think I may be living on a fractal edge, but I have been doing that for 81 years. Maybe I should consider taking up yoga?
    Having been to yoga classes I think I'll stick to the gym. There I've got a good chance of keeping away from people; yoga, in my experience, not so much.
    Of course I'm wondering about the gym again now, although with all the sanitiser...... for use on the apparatus ........ they have, you would think no self-respecting virus would come anywhere near.
    There were only about 7 people in the place, max, yesterday morning.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591
    Jonathan said:

    eristdoof said:

    Jonathan said:

    When it comes to COVID why do people want to be “world beating”? It’s a term we keep hearing. When you think about it, it’s just plain weird and self defeating.

    Surely when it comes to the development of vaccines we all have an interest in all countries succeeding. Surely when it comes to track and trace, there is nothing to be gained from having a better system then your neighbours. You need them all to be good, if they are not it presents a risk. If a country finds something that works you share it for the benefit of all.

    If the government simply aimed to discover, develop and implement the best possible protection for its citizens, we might do better.

    Because competition works Jonathan to make improvements.

    World beating things the UK has developed, like our best in the world testing capacity and our best in the world vaccine orders help develop testing procedures and vaccine capabilities that can apply elsewhere too.

    There absolutely is something to be gained from seeking to have a better system than your neighbours, both for you and your neighbours. Especially if they're trying to be the best too then they are innovating and improving which you can learn from. This doesn't mean sabotaging others.

    Competition is fantastic.
    There have also been many races to the bottom in the name of competition.
    Competition is fantastic in some situations but certainly not in all.
    The point is that even if you think the COVID response is a competition you rarely win the competition by focusing on your competitors.

    I get the impression that this desire to be ‘world beating’ stems from the same lack of self confidence that brought us Brexit. The right are desperate to prove something.
    And this, we're just crap at everything, from those desperate to prove the reverse.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591

    Toms said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Toms said:

    Foxy said:

    Condolences Dura_Ace.

    A very good point made in sorrow too about the importance of hygiene for protecting others not just yourself.

    One thing that we have learned over the first wave is the danger of silent hypoxia. If any PBer didn't buy one in the first wave, then it perhaps a good time to get one. They are on Amazon with next day delivery from a variety of suppliers. As essential as a thermometer for Covid-19.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeters&sprefix=pulse&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-ap-p_1_5
    I bought one from Amazon a few weeks ago fo about 35 quid. It can give readings of 80 percent or so to 99 percent within the space of a few minutes, especially if my hands aren't warm. Also, my blood pressure gadget can give readings of between 112/65 and, say, 130/65 within minutes. Well, I always have been highly strung. Humph.
    You could try replacing the batteries.
    It seems to be a fairly common phenomenon that the readings start to go haywire if the batteries aren’t on good order.
    But the devices certainly aren’t infallible anyway.
    Thanks. I'll check, but I think they're OK. I think I may be living on a fractal edge, but I have been doing that for 81 years. Maybe I should consider taking up yoga?
    Having been to yoga classes I think I'll stick to the gym. There I've got a good chance of keeping away from people; yoga, in my experience, not so much.
    Of course I'm wondering about the gym again now, although with all the sanitiser...... for use on the apparatus ........ they have, you would think no self-respecting virus would come anywhere near.
    There were only about 7 people in the place, max, yesterday morning.
    I've not been brave enough to go back yet. I don't think I will pre-vaccine.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,416
    Some questions for the experts here on US politics. I have been reading a few articles on the Supreme Court Judge issue and wondered about a couple of things said:

    a) An article said that any new senator replacing an 'appointed' senator takes their seat immediately and not in January. That sort of makes sense as it is a sort of a byelection and proper election rolled into one:
    i) Is this true?
    ii) If the SCJ hearings go past 3/11 does it have an impact. That is are there any appointed republican senators and are they likely to lose their seat?

    b) An article also said one solution to the issue for the democrats is to impeach Trump again as this would tie up the senate so the SCJ hearings could not take place. Not seen this mentioned again.
    i) Is this practical?
    ii) if they did and in the unlikely situation that Trump is found guilty can he still be elected for a fresh session as president?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That's fantastic news for the UK. Typical of the FT not to see it that way though.

    Having just spent a couple of hours reading what Fleet Street's finest have to say this morning, I'm now completely convinced that the UK media has either totally lost the plot, or are secretly hoping for another full lockdown and tens of thousands more deaths.

    Time to log off for the day and enjoy the sunshine before I get driven mad.
    You can’t really blame journalists for wanting a big story to cover.

    It is why they would be rather miffed if they knew of a big story involving someone important behaving very badly, but were prevented for some legal reason from reporting it. Just as well that isn’t the case, then.
    No, it's as if they've watched Tomorrow Never Dies too many times and think the ends justify the means, so what if thousands more people die if it means we get more clicks and sell more papers.

    Now for a walk in the sun...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,327
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    On an non betting note I found Romney's statements yesterday the most patronising bullshit.

    His comment about how liberals have got used to a left leaning court was just astounding. Even ignoring that the GOP have lost the popular vote every time bar one since '88 there is the fact that the SC had had a majority of justices appointed by Republicans since 1970. For 50 years it has been a majority Republican appointed court.

    The Romney is pretending stealing Obama's pick and then shoving through someone now is redressing a longstanding imbalance is vomit inducing shit.

    Quite a lot of work to come across as one of the good guys who had no time for Trump's antics and idiocy undone in a single day. Disappointing.
    It reminded me why I was certain Romney couldn't beat Obama.

    Romney just comes across as smug and superior with a terrible lecturing tone.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 19,570

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 19,570
    IshmaelZ said:

    Toms said:

    Foxy said:

    Condolences Dura_Ace.

    A very good point made in sorrow too about the importance of hygiene for protecting others not just yourself.

    One thing that we have learned over the first wave is the danger of silent hypoxia. If any PBer didn't buy one in the first wave, then it perhaps a good time to get one. They are on Amazon with next day delivery from a variety of suppliers. As essential as a thermometer for Covid-19.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeters&sprefix=pulse&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-ap-p_1_5
    I bought one from Amazon a few weeks ago fo about 35 quid. It can give readings of 80 percent or so to 99 percent within the space of a few minutes, especially if my hands aren't warm. Also, my blood pressure gadget can give readings of between 112/65 and, say, 130/65 within minutes. Well, I always have been highly strung. Humph.
    Are you sure you are never confusing the heart rate with the oxy reading? Sounds a fcking stupid question, but I sometimes do it myself if looking at it without glasses.
    Finger pulse oximetry can be misleading with cold hands particularly when there is poor circulation too.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,258
    I’m sure it’s me but I do find the current batch of cabinet ministers a collective personality vacuum behaving like preprogrammed robots. It’s amazing how the same preprogrammed quotes are repeated on here with regular frequency.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,327
    kjh said:

    Some questions for the experts here on US politics. I have been reading a few articles on the Supreme Court Judge issue and wondered about a couple of things said:

    a) An article said that any new senator replacing an 'appointed' senator takes their seat immediately and not in January. That sort of makes sense as it is a sort of a byelection and proper election rolled into one:
    i) Is this true?
    ii) If the SCJ hearings go past 3/11 does it have an impact. That is are there any appointed republican senators and are they likely to lose their seat?

    b) An article also said one solution to the issue for the democrats is to impeach Trump again as this would tie up the senate so the SCJ hearings could not take place. Not seen this mentioned again.
    i) Is this practical?
    ii) if they did and in the unlikely situation that Trump is found guilty can he still be elected for a fresh session as president?

    McSally in Arizona is appointed and on current polling is likely to lose.

    IIRC there is a second appointed GOP senator within striking distance of their Dem opponent but still strong favourite to win.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 43,213
    More or Less on R4 very interesting listening on both the Whitty graph (the doubling rate was based on early September hospital admissions) and the “False Positive” misunderstanding. The “False Positive” numbers are roundings in the current numbers - the “FP rate” quoted is based on random testing, not testing of the symptomatic- so the numbers of “False Positives” among the true positives is trivial.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,351
    DavidL said:

    Toms said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Toms said:

    Foxy said:

    Condolences Dura_Ace.

    A very good point made in sorrow too about the importance of hygiene for protecting others not just yourself.

    One thing that we have learned over the first wave is the danger of silent hypoxia. If any PBer didn't buy one in the first wave, then it perhaps a good time to get one. They are on Amazon with next day delivery from a variety of suppliers. As essential as a thermometer for Covid-19.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeters&sprefix=pulse&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-ap-p_1_5
    I bought one from Amazon a few weeks ago fo about 35 quid. It can give readings of 80 percent or so to 99 percent within the space of a few minutes, especially if my hands aren't warm. Also, my blood pressure gadget can give readings of between 112/65 and, say, 130/65 within minutes. Well, I always have been highly strung. Humph.
    You could try replacing the batteries.
    It seems to be a fairly common phenomenon that the readings start to go haywire if the batteries aren’t on good order.
    But the devices certainly aren’t infallible anyway.
    Thanks. I'll check, but I think they're OK. I think I may be living on a fractal edge, but I have been doing that for 81 years. Maybe I should consider taking up yoga?
    Having been to yoga classes I think I'll stick to the gym. There I've got a good chance of keeping away from people; yoga, in my experience, not so much.
    Of course I'm wondering about the gym again now, although with all the sanitiser...... for use on the apparatus ........ they have, you would think no self-respecting virus would come anywhere near.
    There were only about 7 people in the place, max, yesterday morning.
    I've not been brave enough to go back yet. I don't think I will pre-vaccine.
    There were quite a few people there when the restrictions were first lifted, but it's tailed off a bit since.
    Of course that may just be the normal fading of the good intentions aura!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 19,570
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    @Philip_Thompson the claim that any other country would want to copy our testing regime is very funny.

    Considering we're testing more per capita than any other large country on the entire planet, I don't see the joke.
    For the resources we’ve thrown at it, our testing is deeply unimpressive.
    We could be doing a far better job.

    And what ‘world beating’ regime have we developed ?
    The new rapid antigen tests aren’t from here; pooled testing was successfully implemented months ago but several countries; there are literally dozens of new testing modalities being looked at - how many British ones have been deployed ?
    Even the swabs come from Italy.
    Yup, it comes from not having someone who know what they're doing in charge.

    We probably have the best antibody testing regime in the world too, but there's clearly no point in it because the testing hasn't been ramped up in those areas likely to see new outbreaks.

    At the moment, the testing just seems to be being wasted. We're adopting a siege mentality of repeatedly testing certain groups which now accounts fit 60-70% of overall capacity leaving community testing without enough resources to quickly see where the outbreaks are. Without the ability to find localised outbreaks, quarantine everyone in the area we're going to have a full second lockdown of "stay home" which will destroy the economy.

    On pooled testing, it seems like such an easy win for hospitals, schools and care homes. We could probably quadruple the capacity of P1 testing which frees up P2 for community testing.
    Testing sewage is another good option:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/tracking-coronavirus-through-sewage/615958/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591
    nichomar said:

    I’m sure it’s me but I do find the current batch of cabinet ministers a collective personality vacuum behaving like preprogrammed robots. It’s amazing how the same preprogrammed quotes are repeated on here with regular frequency.

    You don't remember Alastair Campbell's "messaging" under new Labour then?
  • Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Might head down to Sainsbury's today.
  • Alistair said:

    kjh said:

    Some questions for the experts here on US politics. I have been reading a few articles on the Supreme Court Judge issue and wondered about a couple of things said:

    a) An article said that any new senator replacing an 'appointed' senator takes their seat immediately and not in January. That sort of makes sense as it is a sort of a byelection and proper election rolled into one:
    i) Is this true?
    ii) If the SCJ hearings go past 3/11 does it have an impact. That is are there any appointed republican senators and are they likely to lose their seat?

    b) An article also said one solution to the issue for the democrats is to impeach Trump again as this would tie up the senate so the SCJ hearings could not take place. Not seen this mentioned again.
    i) Is this practical?
    ii) if they did and in the unlikely situation that Trump is found guilty can he still be elected for a fresh session as president?

    McSally in Arizona is appointed and on current polling is likely to lose.

    IIRC there is a second appointed GOP senator within striking distance of their Dem opponent but still strong favourite to win.
    And even if they both lose it leaves the GOP still with 51 Senators, plus the casting vote of Pence in a tie situation so there still needs to be either 4 rebels or 4 combined losses and rebels. Simply 2 losses won't be sufficient.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,332
    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Do you not think that the supermarkets will be doing the same thing? Why would you need to?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,332

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Might head down to Sainsbury's today.
    = empty shelves.

    FFS calm down.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 2,734
    Nigelb said:
    We were assured by posters just yesterday that Sweden was over it and even had herd immunity.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,029
    edited September 23
    IshmaelZ said:

    Toms said:

    Foxy said:

    Condolences Dura_Ace.

    A very good point made in sorrow too about the importance of hygiene for protecting others not just yourself.

    One thing that we have learned over the first wave is the danger of silent hypoxia. If any PBer didn't buy one in the first wave, then it perhaps a good time to get one. They are on Amazon with next day delivery from a variety of suppliers. As essential as a thermometer for Covid-19.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeters&sprefix=pulse&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-ap-p_1_5
    I bought one from Amazon a few weeks ago fo about 35 quid. It can give readings of 80 percent or so to 99 percent within the space of a few minutes, especially if my hands aren't warm. Also, my blood pressure gadget can give readings of between 112/65 and, say, 130/65 within minutes. Well, I always have been highly strung. Humph.
    Are you sure you are never confusing the heart rate with the oxy reading? Sounds a fcking stupid question, but I sometimes do it myself if looking at it without glasses.
    No, thanks. My heart rate tends to be just over 60 bpm. When I was cycling thousands of miles a year and doing the odd time trial my heart rate was in the high 40s. God I miss those rides, but I now must spend the plum hours of the day caring. Still get short intense workouts on the turbo trainer though.

    Also, I didn't mention that I may be a zombie, for my thermometer struggles to give an oral temperature of much over 36 centigrade. I didn't believe that so bought another and it agrees.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 11,317

    FFS people stop panic buying

    I've done all my panic buying over the past few months. 🤓
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 976

    More or Less on R4 very interesting listening on both the Whitty graph (the doubling rate was based on early September hospital admissions) and the “False Positive” misunderstanding. The “False Positive” numbers are roundings in the current numbers - the “FP rate” quoted is based on random testing, not testing of the symptomatic- so the numbers of “False Positives” among the true positives is trivial.

    Hospital admissions are possibly the most telling indicator...


  • TomsToms Posts: 2,029

    Toms said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Toms said:

    Foxy said:

    Condolences Dura_Ace.

    A very good point made in sorrow too about the importance of hygiene for protecting others not just yourself.

    One thing that we have learned over the first wave is the danger of silent hypoxia. If any PBer didn't buy one in the first wave, then it perhaps a good time to get one. They are on Amazon with next day delivery from a variety of suppliers. As essential as a thermometer for Covid-19.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeters&sprefix=pulse&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-ap-p_1_5
    I bought one from Amazon a few weeks ago fo about 35 quid. It can give readings of 80 percent or so to 99 percent within the space of a few minutes, especially if my hands aren't warm. Also, my blood pressure gadget can give readings of between 112/65 and, say, 130/65 within minutes. Well, I always have been highly strung. Humph.
    You could try replacing the batteries.
    It seems to be a fairly common phenomenon that the readings start to go haywire if the batteries aren’t on good order.
    But the devices certainly aren’t infallible anyway.
    Thanks. I'll check, but I think they're OK. I think I may be living on a fractal edge, but I have been doing that for 81 years. Maybe I should consider taking up yoga?
    Having been to yoga classes I think I'll stick to the gym. There I've got a good chance of keeping away from people; yoga, in my experience, not so much.
    Of course I'm wondering about the gym again now, although with all the sanitiser...... for use on the apparatus ........ they have, you would think no self-respecting virus would come anywhere near.
    There were only about 7 people in the place, max, yesterday morning.
    Thanks OKC. For me nothing beats intense workouts I expect.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,327
    Nigelb said:
    As I pointed out yesterday ICU cases have been rising over the last 2 weeks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,463
    edited September 23
    Depends which polls you look at, Rasmussen, the only national pollster apart from Google to correctly have a 2% Hillary lead in its final 2016 poll has Trump 1% ahead nationally in its latest poll.

    Trafalgar, the only pollster to correctly have Trump ahead in Michigan and Pennsylvania in 2016 has Biden picking up Pennsylvania but Trump still ahead in Michigan and Wisconsin in its latest state polls
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,821

    FFS people stop panic buying

    I've done all my panic buying over the past few months. 🤓
    Indeed, did a big trip to Costco with my parents a few weekends ago. 👌

    Also have been slowly stocking up on 00 grade flour, bread flour and wholemeal for pizza and bread.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,327

    More or Less on R4 very interesting listening on both the Whitty graph (the doubling rate was based on early September hospital admissions) and the “False Positive” misunderstanding. The “False Positive” numbers are roundings in the current numbers - the “FP rate” quoted is based on random testing, not testing of the symptomatic- so the numbers of “False Positives” among the true positives is trivial.

    Covid Sceptics jumping on the "page 1 example from conditional probability textbook" garbage explination for why there were no positives really was just so painful.

    It was like nails down a chalkboard levels of wrong when they tried to apply it to current test figures.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,821
    Gadfly said:

    More or Less on R4 very interesting listening on both the Whitty graph (the doubling rate was based on early September hospital admissions) and the “False Positive” misunderstanding. The “False Positive” numbers are roundings in the current numbers - the “FP rate” quoted is based on random testing, not testing of the symptomatic- so the numbers of “False Positives” among the true positives is trivial.

    Hospital admissions are possibly the most telling indicator...


    That's a linear rise, not exponential.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,463
    Alistair said:

    On an non betting note I found Romney's statements yesterday the most patronising bullshit.

    His comment about how liberals have got used to a left leaning court was just astounding. Even ignoring that the GOP have lost the popular vote every time bar one since '88 there is the fact that the SC had had a majority of justices appointed by Republicans since 1970. For 50 years it has been a majority Republican appointed court.

    The Romney is pretending stealing Obama's pick and then shoving through someone now is redressing a longstanding imbalance is vomit inducing shit.

    It was Ginsburg who decided not to step down under Obama, a Democratic President despite her age and risked therefore her replacement being appointed under a Republican.

    The fact the Presidency has been elected by the electoral college since its foundation is also known to both parties in the election campaign, if left liberals fail to play effectively by the rules as they are in the US tough
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,332
    MaxPB said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    I've done all my panic buying over the past few months. 🤓
    Indeed, did a big trip to Costco with my parents a few weekends ago. 👌

    Also have been slowly stocking up on 00 grade flour, bread flour and wholemeal for pizza and bread.
    HOLD ON!!!

    You told us only a matter of months ago that you had bought hundreds of packs of loo roll, etc from Costco.

    What have you been doing!?
  • DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    I’m sure it’s me but I do find the current batch of cabinet ministers a collective personality vacuum behaving like preprogrammed robots. It’s amazing how the same preprogrammed quotes are repeated on here with regular frequency.

    You don't remember Alastair Campbell's "messaging" under new Labour then?
    I remember when Cameron was doing PMQs (as PM and as LotO).
    According to PB Tories here, he was always either "on fire" (he had done well) or "pulling his punches" (he had done badly).
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,327
    MaxPB said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    I've done all my panic buying over the past few months. 🤓
    Indeed, did a big trip to Costco with my parents a few weekends ago. 👌

    Also have been slowly stocking up on 00 grade flour, bread flour and wholemeal for pizza and bread.
    We stocked a cupboard for 6 months of no deal Brexit back when *checks notes* Prime Minister May was promising not extension in March. We then did another restock in preperation for October 31st and then when Covid hit we felt pretty relaxed.

    Time to recharge the cupboard now though.
  • FFS people stop panic buying

    I've done all my panic buying over the past few months. 🤓
    Absolutely. The combination of Covid, Brexit and panic will almost inevitably lead to empty shelves. If you haven't been stocking up for a while already in readiness, you haven't been paying attention.
  • Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Indeed. It's the responsible thing to do.
  • TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Might head down to Sainsbury's today.
    = empty shelves.

    FFS calm down.
    Sorry kids we have no food and you will be wiping your arse with your hands from now on, but at least daddy stayed calm when everyone else was losing their heads.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,298
    My condolences, Mr. Ace.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,463
    edited September 23
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,637
    Due to my personal situation I'm not a work at home person.

    I have no idea how people do it though!! The endless building work that goes on in my close neighbourhood is crazy at the moment. Noise all the time during the week. One house after another. Grrrrr.

    If there is a huge recession building, it 'aint in the construction trades.

    Sunday Times has a skip index as a semi-joke: plenty in the streets close to me.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    So I finally know somebody who has died from covid, sadly it was my 81 year old mother.

    She fell over in her garden a couple of weeks ago, went to hospital for a precautionary x-ray, caught the rona there and was dead 11 days later.

    I mention this not to solicit sympathy or commiserations but make two illustrative points. To those who advocate letting it rip because it mainly affects older people I offer a hearty FUCK YOU. Secondly, my mother was usually very careful with hygiene, etc but obviously not careful enough so it behooves us all to take all sensible precautions at all times and never relent.

    I am truly sorry to hear your news and how it happened

    I send you and your family my deepest sympathy and thoughts

    And it does highlight just how vulnerable my wife, who is also 81, and I are to catching it due to an innocent hospital admission
    Sad to hear the news of your loss. My wife and I are in a similar age bracket so we hare very anxious about meeting other people we don't know anything about. At least in Pembrokeshire we hardly meet anyone, and the numbers are therefore quite low anyway.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,463
    Sorry to hear about your mother Dura Ace, condolonces
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Might head down to Sainsbury's today.
    = empty shelves.

    FFS calm down.
    Sorry kids we have no food and you will be wiping your arse with your hands from now on, but at least daddy stayed calm when everyone else was losing their heads.
    If you can keep a cool head when everyone around you is losing theirs perhaps you have misunderstood the situation.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,332
    edited September 23

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Might head down to Sainsbury's today.
    = empty shelves.

    FFS calm down.
    Sorry kids we have no food and you will be wiping your arse with your hands from now on, but at least daddy stayed calm when everyone else was losing their heads.
    Yeah that'll see them in therapy for the next 20yrs. Meanwhile, all the supermarkets coped very well last time. All the supermarket delivery services coped. No one went hungry.

    In fact the only inconvenience was when people (no names here, @OnlyLivingBoy) went out and unnecessarily panic over-bought leaving nothing for other people.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,821
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    I've done all my panic buying over the past few months. 🤓
    Indeed, did a big trip to Costco with my parents a few weekends ago. 👌

    Also have been slowly stocking up on 00 grade flour, bread flour and wholemeal for pizza and bread.
    HOLD ON!!!

    You told us only a matter of months ago that you had bought hundreds of packs of loo roll, etc from Costco.

    What have you been doing!?
    This was washing up liquid, shampoo/conditioner, soap, dishwasher tablets, washing powder. Loaded up on plum tomato cans and various types of pasta too. My parents had to go and buy bog roll so I tagged along.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591

    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    I’m sure it’s me but I do find the current batch of cabinet ministers a collective personality vacuum behaving like preprogrammed robots. It’s amazing how the same preprogrammed quotes are repeated on here with regular frequency.

    You don't remember Alastair Campbell's "messaging" under new Labour then?
    I remember when Cameron was doing PMQs (as PM and as LotO).
    According to PB Tories here, he was always either "on fire" (he had done well) or "pulling his punches" (he had done badly).
    Truly, nothing is new under the sun.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,332

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Indeed. It's the responsible thing to do.
    Supermarket CEOs slap their heads in frustration.

    I suppose it's a bit like when they plan for the fact that in an aircrash people will try to retrieve their luggage from the overhead lockers. Totally unnecessary, illogical, and perhaps dangerous, but human nature is what it is.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Might head down to Sainsbury's today.
    = empty shelves.

    FFS calm down.
    Sorry kids we have no food and you will be wiping your arse with your hands from now on, but at least daddy stayed calm when everyone else was losing their heads.
    Yeah that'll see them in therapy for the next 20yrs. Meanwhile, all the supermarkets coped very well last time. All the supermarket delivery services coped. No one went hungry.

    In fact the only inconvenience was when people (no names here, @OnlyLivingBoy) went out and unnecessarily panic over-bought leaving nothing for other people.
    To be honest I was very much in the no panic buying category last time and as a result almost ran out of some things. I'm not keen to repeat that experience. Not sure if you have kids but it's quite anxiety inducing when there's no food in the shops and you're running low at home.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 2,127
    edited September 23
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Indeed. It's the responsible thing to do.
    Supermarket CEOs slap their heads in frustration.

    I suppose it's a bit like when they plan for the fact that in an aircrash people will try to retrieve their luggage from the overhead lockers. Totally unnecessary, illogical, and perhaps dangerous, but human nature is what it is.
    No, it is nothing like that at all. By slowly building up your own stock well in advance, you are being responsible and helping to relieve the strain when the shit really hits the fan. You are doing your fellow citizens, as well as yourself, a favour.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,416

    Alistair said:

    kjh said:

    Some questions for the experts here on US politics. I have been reading a few articles on the Supreme Court Judge issue and wondered about a couple of things said:

    a) An article said that any new senator replacing an 'appointed' senator takes their seat immediately and not in January. That sort of makes sense as it is a sort of a byelection and proper election rolled into one:
    i) Is this true?
    ii) If the SCJ hearings go past 3/11 does it have an impact. That is are there any appointed republican senators and are they likely to lose their seat?

    b) An article also said one solution to the issue for the democrats is to impeach Trump again as this would tie up the senate so the SCJ hearings could not take place. Not seen this mentioned again.
    i) Is this practical?
    ii) if they did and in the unlikely situation that Trump is found guilty can he still be elected for a fresh session as president?

    McSally in Arizona is appointed and on current polling is likely to lose.

    IIRC there is a second appointed GOP senator within striking distance of their Dem opponent but still strong favourite to win.
    And even if they both lose it leaves the GOP still with 51 Senators, plus the casting vote of Pence in a tie situation so there still needs to be either 4 rebels or 4 combined losses and rebels. Simply 2 losses won't be sufficient.
    2 republicans have said they won't support the nomination. Unless they are also the nominated senators that take the republicans in favour down to 49.

    Obviously all this is unlikely and hypothetical, but would like feedback on whether this is correct and also the possibility of impeachment and whether Trump can be elected if successful.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,258
    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    I’m sure it’s me but I do find the current batch of cabinet ministers a collective personality vacuum behaving like preprogrammed robots. It’s amazing how the same preprogrammed quotes are repeated on here with regular frequency.

    You don't remember Alastair Campbell's "messaging" under new Labour then?
    I think the cabinet members they put up were more interesting and diverse though, at times I can’t tell the difference between Rabb and Hancock, at least Schapps has a funny voice.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,327
    kjh said:

    Alistair said:

    kjh said:

    Some questions for the experts here on US politics. I have been reading a few articles on the Supreme Court Judge issue and wondered about a couple of things said:

    a) An article said that any new senator replacing an 'appointed' senator takes their seat immediately and not in January. That sort of makes sense as it is a sort of a byelection and proper election rolled into one:
    i) Is this true?
    ii) If the SCJ hearings go past 3/11 does it have an impact. That is are there any appointed republican senators and are they likely to lose their seat?

    b) An article also said one solution to the issue for the democrats is to impeach Trump again as this would tie up the senate so the SCJ hearings could not take place. Not seen this mentioned again.
    i) Is this practical?
    ii) if they did and in the unlikely situation that Trump is found guilty can he still be elected for a fresh session as president?

    McSally in Arizona is appointed and on current polling is likely to lose.

    IIRC there is a second appointed GOP senator within striking distance of their Dem opponent but still strong favourite to win.
    And even if they both lose it leaves the GOP still with 51 Senators, plus the casting vote of Pence in a tie situation so there still needs to be either 4 rebels or 4 combined losses and rebels. Simply 2 losses won't be sufficient.
    2 republicans have said they won't support the nomination. Unless they are also the nominated senators that take the republicans in favour down to 49.

    Obviously all this is unlikely and hypothetical, but would like feedback on whether this is correct and also the possibility of impeachment and whether Trump can be elected if successful.
    Yes, Elected Senators can replace the nominated senator immediately.

    However that may vary on a State by state basis.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,626
    Very sorry to hear your news @Dura_Ace.
  • Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Indeed. But the reports aren't 2 weeks supply, its wipe the shelves clean again...
  • Sad news, Dura Ace; commiserations.

    The "it's not much worse than flu", "why are we locking down?", "we're ruining the economy for nothing", "we need to sacrifice the old and vulnerable if necessary" contingent seem to be rather quiet on here this morning.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 11,317

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Indeed. But the reports aren't 2 weeks supply, its wipe the shelves clean again...
    Asda Ashington had empty shelves once the rumours of the NE lockdown started getting out.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Might head down to Sainsbury's today.
    = empty shelves.

    FFS calm down.
    Sorry kids we have no food and you will be wiping your arse with your hands from now on, but at least daddy stayed calm when everyone else was losing their heads.
    Yeah that'll see them in therapy for the next 20yrs. Meanwhile, all the supermarkets coped very well last time
    They bloody didn't. Zero stocks on significant numbers of products, huge costs in trying to pull whatever stock they could find through the system, angry customers assaulting show workers.

  • Scott_xP said:
    Definitely won't encourage panic buying.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,626
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    I've done all my panic buying over the past few months. 🤓
    Indeed, did a big trip to Costco with my parents a few weekends ago. 👌

    Also have been slowly stocking up on 00 grade flour, bread flour and wholemeal for pizza and bread.
    We stocked a cupboard for 6 months of no deal Brexit back when *checks notes* Prime Minister May was promising not extension in March. We then did another restock in preperation for October 31st and then when Covid hit we felt pretty relaxed.

    Time to recharge the cupboard now though.
    Tbh I'm more worried about some of my medical supplies post January, given they come from Germany. Stocking up there, where I can.
  • Having cracked (up) Scotland, Galloway's comedy vehicle Alliance for Unity is now intent on breaking into the competitive UK shitposting scene. Galloway whining about a Labour leader being too left wing is an exciting development that I must admit has blindsided me.



  • FWIW I think we will get a trade deal, although it will be as skinny as a Ukrainian violinist.
  • If we are all very good boys and girls we won't be in lockdown harder at Christmas. Not exactly the most uplifting message.

    BBC News - Covid: Boris Johnson warns of tougher measures if new rules are flouted
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54260259
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,416
    Alistair said:

    kjh said:

    Alistair said:

    kjh said:

    Some questions for the experts here on US politics. I have been reading a few articles on the Supreme Court Judge issue and wondered about a couple of things said:

    a) An article said that any new senator replacing an 'appointed' senator takes their seat immediately and not in January. That sort of makes sense as it is a sort of a byelection and proper election rolled into one:
    i) Is this true?
    ii) If the SCJ hearings go past 3/11 does it have an impact. That is are there any appointed republican senators and are they likely to lose their seat?

    b) An article also said one solution to the issue for the democrats is to impeach Trump again as this would tie up the senate so the SCJ hearings could not take place. Not seen this mentioned again.
    i) Is this practical?
    ii) if they did and in the unlikely situation that Trump is found guilty can he still be elected for a fresh session as president?

    McSally in Arizona is appointed and on current polling is likely to lose.

    IIRC there is a second appointed GOP senator within striking distance of their Dem opponent but still strong favourite to win.
    And even if they both lose it leaves the GOP still with 51 Senators, plus the casting vote of Pence in a tie situation so there still needs to be either 4 rebels or 4 combined losses and rebels. Simply 2 losses won't be sufficient.
    2 republicans have said they won't support the nomination. Unless they are also the nominated senators that take the republicans in favour down to 49.

    Obviously all this is unlikely and hypothetical, but would like feedback on whether this is correct and also the possibility of impeachment and whether Trump can be elected if successful.
    Yes, Elected Senators can replace the nominated senator immediately.

    However that may vary on a State by state basis.
    Thanks Alistair for the confirmation and your previous post. Surprised I have only seen this on one place.

    Anyone on the impeachment option. Seems an obvious thing to do, yet I have only seen this suggested in one article. It would be havoc. It would take the senators off the stump and stop the nomination in its tracks. It would hit republican senators who are campaigning arms length from Trump. It is not clear if it would help or hinder Trump, with the outside chance he may be found guilty. Yet no discussion on it as an option in the media!
  • I guess once again Project Fear became Project Reality.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,626
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 4,407

    Sad news, Dura Ace; commiserations.

    The "it's not much worse than flu", "why are we locking down?", "we're ruining the economy for nothing", "we need to sacrifice the old and vulnerable if necessary" contingent seem to be rather quiet on here this morning.

    There's still plenty of reason to be asking "why are we locking down?" "why are doiung it like this?" Please don't make a poster's loss into a debating point.
  • FWIW I think we will get a trade deal, although it will be as skinny as a Ukrainian violinist.
    Screwed by BJ being the common factor.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,134
    edited September 23
    HYUFD said:

    Biden doing worse than Hillary in California but better in Washington state


    OK, so what I'm scratching my head about is, compared to Hillary, Biden seems to be strong with white people, low-education people, and older people. He might be a little bit weaker with high-education white people, black people and latino people. Have I got this right?

    Shouldn't this favour him in the mid-west compared to Hillary? If so, why is his deficit in the tipping point states compared to his national polling the same as her (actual) deficit or bigger? Doesn't it seem more likely that his electoral college deficit is actually smaller, and either the state polling in the mid-west (or at least PA) has over-corrected, or the national polling (and potentially the polling in AZ/TX) is overstating his support?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 15,692
    @Dura_Ace

    That is very sad news. All the best to you.
  • Yes. He gave a detailed, serious and reasoned response.

    There is no statistical evidence to show that Italy has a better testing regime than the UK - they are doing a fraction of the tests we are per capita and have a higher positivity rate in their tests than we do. People like you might like to complain about our testing system, but you'd be complaining even more if those figures were reversed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 51,215
    edited September 23
    Except if the government implemented South Korea's tracing system i.e. state spying, the media and the public would go mental. Just look at the reaction to saying we might use the army to guard a few key locations, let alone go the government having the power to go through every single persons exact movements, payments they made, etc.

    It just is a non-starter in western societies, the people won't accept it.
  • FWIW I think we will get a trade deal, although it will be as skinny as a Ukrainian violinist.
    Screwed by BJ being the common factor.
    Ha ha, naughty.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,458
    @Dura_Ace - awful to hear your sad news, and that a simple x-ray has such terrible consequences.
  • Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Indeed. But the reports aren't 2 weeks supply, its wipe the shelves clean again...
    The thing that people don't seem to understand is that empty shelves are not, in the main, due to a few maniacs buying loads of stuff, but rather to many people buying a little more than usual.

    My missus has been shopping this morning, and didn't notice much amiss, except that sterilised milk seemed to be running low. So she bought 3 instead of her usual 2 (to keep at work). Nothing wrong with that, you'd think. But lots of people acting in the same, logical fashion will soon clear the shelves of sterilised milk faster than the supermarket can restock it, giving the appearance of a shortage.

    However, the difference this time round is that real shortages are a distinct possibility.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,332

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FFS people stop panic buying

    Stocking up for a couple of weeks of isolation is not panicking, it is prudent preparation.
    Might head down to Sainsbury's today.
    = empty shelves.

    FFS calm down.
    Sorry kids we have no food and you will be wiping your arse with your hands from now on, but at least daddy stayed calm when everyone else was losing their heads.
    Yeah that'll see them in therapy for the next 20yrs. Meanwhile, all the supermarkets coped very well last time. All the supermarket delivery services coped. No one went hungry.

    In fact the only inconvenience was when people (no names here, @OnlyLivingBoy) went out and unnecessarily panic over-bought leaving nothing for other people.
    To be honest I was very much in the no panic buying category last time and as a result almost ran out of some things. I'm not keen to repeat that experience. Not sure if you have kids but it's quite anxiety inducing when there's no food in the shops and you're running low at home.
    I can totally understand that. I suppose my point was that there was probably no food in the shops because people had over-bought and so the circle starts.

    But I can imagine and absolutely sympathise with the fact that you wouldn't want to fuck around with feeding your family.
This discussion has been closed.