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The challenge for Trump is that white voters are now significantly less likely to support him than a

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  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    She was succeeded by a PM of such monumental excellence that she will indeed by largely forgotten. She was the warm up act to the real deal.

    Only a few weeks until you will have to eat your hat about the genius of Boris.
    a COVID19 vaccine reaching the UK before the rest of Europe gets it
    Another commitment he'll renege upon?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/uk-joins-who-backed-effort-share-vaccines-globally/
    I don't think it's an either/or.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:
    It is the latter. For example, Holocaust denial dates to the time of Paul Rassinier in the 1950s, or Ricardianism to Clements Markham in the early twentieth century, but outside a handful of cranks nobody paid the slightest attention as nobody would publish such nonsense so nobody would read it.

    But now the internet is available to anyone with a computer and a router, any fool can lie about reality, and many of them do.
    Same Markham who thought sending that murderous dolt Scott south was a good idea. A majestic range of wrongness.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting story out of Dublin: Facebook is refusing to abide by a ruling of the Data Protection Commission in Ireland, threatens to exit the EU market if they don’t back down.

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/889pk3/facebook-threatens-to-pull-out-of-europe-if-it-doesnt-get-its-way

    Can they threaten to leave the UK market too?
    No, a world without WhatsApp is a sad place. Even Instagram is fun to keep up with friends at the moment. Facebook I'm much less fussed about.
    I just deleted Whatsapp last week. Great feeling!

    Never used Facebook or Instagram either, you’ll get me on Signal, iMessage or old fashioned SMS.
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

    So is May to lose the Whip then?

    I doubt it

    I have just noticed Keir Starmer's keynote (virtual) speech to the labour party conference is tomorrow

    Talk about timing, with Boris addressing the HOC and then announcing covid restrictions in an address to the nation as well

    I think we know which will receive wall to wall coverage in the media
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

    So is May to lose the Whip then?

    image
    I would love it . . .
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    RobD said:

    She was succeeded by a PM of such monumental excellence that she will indeed by largely forgotten. She was the warm up act to the real deal.

    Only a few weeks until you will have to eat your hat about the genius of Boris.
    a COVID19 vaccine reaching the UK before the rest of Europe gets it
    Another commitment he'll renege upon?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/uk-joins-who-backed-effort-share-vaccines-globally/
    I don't think it's an either/or.
    It's not, and interesting there is no condemnation of Germany and France who merely support the scheme but won't take part. If the UK had refused the global liberal media would have gone mental.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    A group of scientists and doctors have written to the Prime Minister urging him not to opt for a second lockdown and to stop presenting Covid-19 as a mortal danger.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8756793/Leading-academics-write-open-letter-Boris-Johnson-warning-against-second-lockdown.html

    What consequences do these letter writers face if they turn out to be completely wrong?

    Same question to the official government scientists and the prime minister.
  • Alistair said:

    Sheffield United are going down with Manchester United aren't they?

    Dunk or Egan I thought. Dunk or Egan.

    I chose poorly
    I've decided not to mock you but cheer you up with this tweet from 2010.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1308117258569474048
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

    So is May to lose the Whip then?

    image
    I would love it . . .
    The last competent-ish PM we had, she has aged well.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Alistair said:

    Sheffield United are going down with Manchester United aren't they?

    Dunk or Egan I thought. Dunk or Egan.

    I chose poorly
    I've decided not to mock you but cheer you up with this tweet from 2010.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1308117258569474048
    He's not wrong, is he?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting story out of Dublin: Facebook is refusing to abide by a ruling of the Data Protection Commission in Ireland, threatens to exit the EU market if they don’t back down.

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/889pk3/facebook-threatens-to-pull-out-of-europe-if-it-doesnt-get-its-way

    Can they threaten to leave the UK market too?
    No, a world without WhatsApp is a sad place. Even Instagram is fun to keep up with friends at the moment. Facebook I'm much less fussed about.
    While the article says its a hollow threat I am not so sure when you see what is being pressed for rules wise in the EU now that article 17 has been passed

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200915/02154245308/copyright-companies-want-memes-that-are-legal-eu-blocked-because-they-now-admit-upload-filters-are-practically-unworkable.shtml
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2020

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

    So is May to lose the Whip then?

    image
    I would love it . . .
    The last competent-ish PM we had, she has aged well.
    Kevin Keegan would have been a more competent PM than Theresa May.

    At least he knew how to win in Europe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,103
    edited September 2020
    The panorama expose is a bit weak. Starts with this massive hype about being leaked the most valuable documents ever.

    But apparently there are 3 million of these filed every year and of course find a connection to Brexit etc, but in most cases it is we have found a name in the document, nothing has been proven, and / or two names, two names, he has two names...yes thats due to the law of Thailand stating he has to have a Thai name.

    I am sure loads of shady stuff going on, but if you are going to hype something up like this, in basically every example its well nothing proven.
  • nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:
    It is the latter. For example, Holocaust denial dates to the time of Paul Rassinier in the 1950s, or Ricardianism to Clements Markham in the early twentieth century, but outside a handful of cranks nobody paid the slightest attention as nobody would publish such nonsense so nobody would read it.

    But now the internet is available to anyone with a computer and a router, any fool can lie about reality, and many of them do.
    Yes, but the problem is that the internet seems to make lunacy contagious.
    Yes some people even believe Johnson to be a brilliant PM
    They'll learn.

    But at the moment, it's like when your best friend has shacked up with someone new, and everyone else knows it will end in tears, but they won't see it.

    So there's no point saying much. Just keep the spare room habitable for when they need it.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited September 2020
    Sum up of Italian election results held this weekend

    Referendum to reduce the number of MPs (House down from 630 to 400 and Senate down from 315 to 200) approved with 69-70% in a 53.8% turnout

    Regional elections

    Veneto: Lega incumbent Zaia (supported by Forza Italia and Brothers of Italy) re-elected with 75%. PD at 15% and M5s at 4%

    Liguria: Forza Italia incumbent Toti (supported by Lega and Brothers of Italy) re-elected comfortably (around 55 to 38%). Renzi's party running alone polling 3-4%. 5 Stars didn't stand.

    Toscana: PD incumbent Rossi retiring after 10 years. New PD candidate survives the challenge by Lega candidate (leading the centre-right coalition) 48 to 41%. 5 Stars polling aorund 7%.

    Marche: centre-right candidate (from Brothers of Italy) gain the region comfortably from PD & allies incumbent: around 50 to 36%. 5 Stars polling aorund 9%.

    Campania: centre-left incumbent De Luca re-elected with over 60% of the vote. 5 Stars polling aorund 12%.

    Puglia: centre-left incumbent Emiliano set to be re-elected (around 46 to 38% for eternal Forza Italia candidate). 5 Stars polling aorund 10-11% and Renzi 2%
  • Scott: Its her. Still her.

    Gordon Brown close second, then Lord North.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    The panorama expose is a bit weak. Starts with this massive hype about being leaked the most valuable documents ever.

    But apparently there are 3 million of these filed every year and of course find a connection to Brexit etc, but in most cases it is we have found a name in the document, nothing has been proven, and / or two names, two names, he has two names...yes thats due to the law of Thailand stating he has to have a Thai name.

    Is this the BBC thinking that HSBC would risk everything to wash 80m cash for some clowns?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Scott_xP said:
    Well if you haven't got any money you won't be doing any of those things anyway. Can't see a problem with it myself.

    :)
  • Scott: Its her. Still her.

    Gordon Brown close second, then Lord North.

    You wouldn't have been on the side of the colonists?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Scott_xP said:
    As will many treatments currently provided by the NHS if this person gets her way.
  • RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well if you haven't got any money you won't be doing any of those things anyway. Can't see a problem with it myself.

    :)
    Precisely.

    If people were being given free testing on the NHS in order to go to the theatre and not for any clinical reason then people would object saying why should the NHS pay for that?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interesting story out of Dublin: Facebook is refusing to abide by a ruling of the Data Protection Commission in Ireland, threatens to exit the EU market if they don’t back down.

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/889pk3/facebook-threatens-to-pull-out-of-europe-if-it-doesnt-get-its-way

    Can they threaten to leave the UK market too?
    No, a world without WhatsApp is a sad place. Even Instagram is fun to keep up with friends at the moment. Facebook I'm much less fussed about.
    I just deleted Whatsapp last week. Great feeling!

    Never used Facebook or Instagram either, you’ll get me on Signal, iMessage or old fashioned SMS.
    I want the Russian government to know what I'm up to, so I use Telegram.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    Scott: Its her. Still her.

    Gordon Brown close second, then Lord North.

    You wouldn't have been on the side of the colonists?
    Tempting. Treason has such light penalties after all.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well if you haven't got any money you won't be doing any of those things anyway. Can't see a problem with it myself.

    :)
    Precisely.

    If people were being given free testing on the NHS in order to go to the theatre and not for any clinical reason then people would object saying why should the NHS pay for that?
    One way of doing it would just be to include the cost in the ticket/admission price. If the idea is to do millions of these day they are likely only going to cost a few bob each.
  • BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

    So is May to lose the Whip then?

    image
    I would love it . . .
    The last competent-ish PM we had, she has aged well.
    Kevin Keegan would have been a more competent PM than Theresa May.

    At least he knew how to win in Europe.
    It was a few years ago, and I may have forgotten, but I can’t recall England’s success in Euro 2000, or Newcastle’s triumph in the Champions League?
  • Scott: Its her. Still her.

    Gordon Brown close second, then Lord North.

    You wouldn't have been on the side of the colonists?
    I don't see a reason to be on the side of the author of the Coercive Acts.
  • nichomar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    As will many treatments currently provided by the NHS if this person gets her way.
    If they ever actually deliver this mad plan for daily testing then we will be in the covid emergency measures indefinitely (unless a fully working vaccine appears).

    It will produce false positives and so there will always be cases. So we will always be in measures. This is potentially a trap.

    MPs need to be urgently alert to the consequences of this plan.
  • Omnium said:

    The panorama expose is a bit weak. Starts with this massive hype about being leaked the most valuable documents ever.

    But apparently there are 3 million of these filed every year and of course find a connection to Brexit etc, but in most cases it is we have found a name in the document, nothing has been proven, and / or two names, two names, he has two names...yes thats due to the law of Thailand stating he has to have a Thai name.

    Is this the BBC thinking that HSBC would risk everything to wash 80m cash for some clowns?

    The most ridiculous is roman abramovich had a sideline business in 3rd party stakes in up and coming players...ohhh stop the presses, scandal...except when he did it, it was perfectly within the rules.

    Chelsea still basically do it now, they just buy them up and loan out 30-40 of them every year. And of course other owners, just buy several clubs.

    So what you have found there is somebody doing nothing wrong in what is supposedly the most explosive leak of documents ever.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    No doubt Sturgeon will want to get her announcement first.
  • I wonder what witty and valence thought of Boris moonshot testing plan?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Scott: Its her. Still her.

    Gordon Brown close second, then Lord North.

    Another one who has never heard of Goderich or Melbourne.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    National league considering delaying start to season, due 3/10 if new regulations exclude even limited fans in the ground. Staging games with no income a none starter.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    The panorama expose is a bit weak. Starts with this massive hype about being leaked the most valuable documents ever.

    But apparently there are 3 million of these filed every year and of course find a connection to Brexit etc, but in most cases it is we have found a name in the document, nothing has been proven, and / or two names, two names, he has two names...yes thats due to the law of Thailand stating he has to have a Thai name.

    I am sure loads of shady stuff going on, but if you are going to hype something up like this, in basically every example its well nothing proven.

    If nothing comes of this then Panorama should face a market manipulation investigation, bank shares in the UK are all down on the prospect of this being terrible for all involved.
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    RobD said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    No doubt Sturgeon will want to get her announcement first.
    The PM's statement to Parliament is at 12:30, and Nicola's daily press briefing can be 12:15 or 12:30, so we'll see.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
  • I wonder what witty and valence thought of Boris moonshot testing plan?

    They rolled their eyes so much they saw their own optic nerves.
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

    So is May to lose the Whip then?

    image
    I would love it . . .
    The last competent-ish PM we had, she has aged well.
    Kevin Keegan would have been a more competent PM than Theresa May.

    At least he knew how to win in Europe.
    It was a few years ago, and I may have forgotten, but I can’t recall England’s success in Euro 2000, or Newcastle’s triumph in the Champions League?
    Before I was born but the 1977 European Cup final.
  • LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    Were you there ?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

    So is May to lose the Whip then?

    image
    I would love it . . .
    The last competent-ish PM we had, she has aged well.
    Kevin Keegan would have been a more competent PM than Theresa May.

    At least he knew how to win in Europe.
    It was a few years ago, and I may have forgotten, but I can’t recall England’s success in Euro 2000, or Newcastle’s triumph in the Champions League?
    Before I was born but the 1977 European Cup final.
    Ah! The player rather than the manager.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well if you haven't got any money you won't be doing any of those things anyway. Can't see a problem with it myself.

    :)
    Doesn't sound like they'll need 10m of them a day then!

    What happened to "entire population tested every week"?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    Were you there ?
    No, but I sense I am about to get a great insight into what it must have felt like
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,103
    edited September 2020
    MaxPB said:

    The panorama expose is a bit weak. Starts with this massive hype about being leaked the most valuable documents ever.

    But apparently there are 3 million of these filed every year and of course find a connection to Brexit etc, but in most cases it is we have found a name in the document, nothing has been proven, and / or two names, two names, he has two names...yes thats due to the law of Thailand stating he has to have a Thai name.

    I am sure loads of shady stuff going on, but if you are going to hype something up like this, in basically every example its well nothing proven.

    If nothing comes of this then Panorama should face a market manipulation investigation, bank shares in the UK are all down on the prospect of this being terrible for all involved.
    Well they spent 1/3 of the programme smearing Roman Abramovich over not breaking any rules in football and shocked that a Jew, who has been given Israeli citizenship, has been legally donating to Jewish organisations (even if the BBC don't approve of what one of them do).

    I don't doubt shady shit has been going on, but the fact a billionaire uses lots of different financial vehicles to legally fund different ventures isn't news.
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

    So is May to lose the Whip then?

    image
    I would love it . . .
    The last competent-ish PM we had, she has aged well.
    Kevin Keegan would have been a more competent PM than Theresa May.

    At least he knew how to win in Europe.
    It was a few years ago, and I may have forgotten, but I can’t recall England’s success in Euro 2000, or Newcastle’s triumph in the Champions League?
    Before I was born but the 1977 European Cup final.
    Ah! The player rather than the manager.
    Still more than May ever achieved.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    Were you there ?
    No, but I sense I am about to get a great insight into what it must have felt like
    Did they make us beg for Mercia?
  • LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    The answer seems to be the Italians are scarred from earlier this year so are still obeying the rules.

    Plus social conformity is more real there.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited September 2020
    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    Less testing? Their deaths figures aren't any different to ours. Fundamentally, in the grand scheme of things and relative to size of countries, all the numbers are pretty small. When only 1-2% of people having tests are testing positive, chaos in testing is not a function of virus prevalence but a function of numbers seeking tests. Those countries successfully rationing demand look like they're doing a lot better, and give the impression of significant better organisational capacity.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    Less testing? Their deaths figures aren't any different to ours. Fundamentally, in the grand scheme of things and relative to size of countries, all the numbers are pretty small. When only 1-2% of people having tests are testing positive, chaos in testing is not a function of virus prevalence but a function of numbers seeking tests.
    Italy has done more tests per m population than France
    How much are they doing at the moment?
  • Scott_xP said:
    You have to respect that.

    No, she didn't have the skills to succeed as PM. But, she's a passionate Conservative *and* Unionist, motivated by a strong sense of duty.

    She does exactly what it says on the tin.
  • LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    Less testing? Their deaths figures aren't any different to ours. Fundamentally, in the grand scheme of things and relative to size of countries, all the numbers are pretty small. When only 1-2% of people having tests are testing positive, chaos in testing is not a function of virus prevalence but a function of numbers seeking tests.
    Italy has done more tests per m population than France

    Also worth noting - as we consistently beat up Boris and HMG - the UK has done more tests per million population than any other large nation on earth.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
    Nearly double per capita what Germany has done.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210

    Sum up of Italian election results held this weekend

    Referendum to reduce the number of MPs (House down from 630 to 400 and Senate down from 315 to 200) approved with 69-70% in a 53.8% turnout

    Regional elections

    Veneto: Lega incumbent Zaia (supported by Forza Italia and Brothers of Italy) re-elected with 75%. PD at 15% and M5s at 4%

    Liguria: Forza Italia incumbent Toti (supported by Lega and Brothers of Italy) re-elected comfortably (around 55 to 38%). Renzi's party running alone polling 3-4%. 5 Stars didn't stand.

    Toscana: PD incumbent Rossi retiring after 10 years. New PD candidate survives the challenge by Lega candidate (leading the centre-right coalition) 48 to 41%. 5 Stars polling aorund 7%.

    Marche: centre-right candidate (from Brothers of Italy) gain the region comfortably from PD & allies incumbent: around 50 to 36%. 5 Stars polling aorund 9%.

    Campania: centre-left incumbent De Luca re-elected with over 60% of the vote. 5 Stars polling aorund 12%.

    Puglia: centre-left incumbent Emiliano set to be re-elected (around 46 to 38% for eternal Forza Italia candidate). 5 Stars polling aorund 10-11% and Renzi 2%

    Basically, Renzi's new party flopped; M5S did badly; and the right (now broadly united) had a good but not amazing night.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    Less testing? Their deaths figures aren't any different to ours. Fundamentally, in the grand scheme of things and relative to size of countries, all the numbers are pretty small. When only 1-2% of people having tests are testing positive, chaos in testing is not a function of virus prevalence but a function of numbers seeking tests.
    Italy has done more tests per m population than France

    Also worth noting - as we consistently beat up Boris and HMG - the UK has done more tests per million population than any other large nation on earth.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
    Nearly double per capita what Germany has done.
    Germany's tests, however, APPEAR to be better targeted. Or they just got lucky. Or both.

    The UK's reaction to coronavirus is strongly reminiscent of our reaction to the onset of World War 2. Chaos, panic, inertia and indecision - but slowly, painfully slowly, we get it together, and eventually - inshallah - we put on a bit of a show.

    By the late-middle of World War 2 (even setting aside US help) the British armaments industry was wholly out producing the German armaments industry. We bombed them much harder than they bombed us. We levelled many of their cities.
  • LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
  • LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    Consensus seems to be that Italians were so traumatised by round 1 that they are taking the precautions seriously,

    Spain felt it had to re-open over the summer, given that their economy is so weak and so dependent on summer tourism.

    And the UK? If the jungle drums are anything to go by, we're about to sleepwalk into a similar shambles to last time (ZOE app reads 10 k infections today, 2 doublings takes that to 40 k a day) because our PM is a flabby-faced coward who can't tell his own party that the choice is doing something unpleasant now or doing really unpleasant in 2 weeks time.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    edited September 2020
    LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    Surely winter 1066/7 was far worse.

    1069-70 was not much fun either:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    Less testing? Their deaths figures aren't any different to ours. Fundamentally, in the grand scheme of things and relative to size of countries, all the numbers are pretty small. When only 1-2% of people having tests are testing positive, chaos in testing is not a function of virus prevalence but a function of numbers seeking tests.
    Italy has done more tests per m population than France

    Also worth noting - as we consistently beat up Boris and HMG - the UK has done more tests per million population than any other large nation on earth.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
    Nearly double per capita what Germany has done.
    Germany's tests, however, APPEAR to be better targeted. Or they just got lucky. Or both.

    The UK's reaction to coronavirus is strongly reminiscent of our reaction to the onset of World War 2. Chaos, panic, inertia and indecision - but slowly, painfully slowly, we get it together, and eventually - inshallah - we put on a bit of a show.

    By the late-middle of World War 2 (even setting aside US help) the British armaments industry was wholly out producing the German armaments industry. We bombed them much harder than they bombed us. We levelled many of their cities.
    While the Oxford boffins work on our own little Manhattan project?
  • Politics is unforgiving. Remember when they were erecting effigies of Theresa on the cliffs of Dover and the polling stated she was going to win one of the greatest mandates in global political history?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    rcs1000 said:

    Sum up of Italian election results held this weekend

    Referendum to reduce the number of MPs (House down from 630 to 400 and Senate down from 315 to 200) approved with 69-70% in a 53.8% turnout

    Regional elections

    Veneto: Lega incumbent Zaia (supported by Forza Italia and Brothers of Italy) re-elected with 75%. PD at 15% and M5s at 4%

    Liguria: Forza Italia incumbent Toti (supported by Lega and Brothers of Italy) re-elected comfortably (around 55 to 38%). Renzi's party running alone polling 3-4%. 5 Stars didn't stand.

    Toscana: PD incumbent Rossi retiring after 10 years. New PD candidate survives the challenge by Lega candidate (leading the centre-right coalition) 48 to 41%. 5 Stars polling aorund 7%.

    Marche: centre-right candidate (from Brothers of Italy) gain the region comfortably from PD & allies incumbent: around 50 to 36%. 5 Stars polling aorund 9%.

    Campania: centre-left incumbent De Luca re-elected with over 60% of the vote. 5 Stars polling aorund 12%.

    Puglia: centre-left incumbent Emiliano set to be re-elected (around 46 to 38% for eternal Forza Italia candidate). 5 Stars polling aorund 10-11% and Renzi 2%

    Basically, Renzi's new party flopped; M5S did badly; and the right (now broadly united) had a good but not amazing night.
    It does look as if a populist right leader is going to win anywhere in Western Europe on the continent it will be Salvini in Italy
  • LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    Surely winter 1066/7 was far worse.
    But at least then we had strong, stable government, albeit one which Harried the North and killed a third of Yorkshiremen,.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
    Whenever people go on about Fred West and his "mistaken" behaviour with his kids, they ignore the many decades of excellent patio-laying he did around the Gloucester area. It's really annoying. You have to judge people in the round.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Not really. They are two separate dimensions: Did he do well generally for others v Did he achieve his goals. You can tick box A without B, e.g. Abe would judge himself a failure because he never did revise the constitution. Or you could have Mao who was OBJECTIVELY bloodthirsty but SUBJECTIVELY achieved all he set out to do by winning a civil war, establishing the party, smashing the food supply, smashing the party, and publishing a bestseller. So box B but not A. These guys tend to have a personal agenda but most people don't care so it is hard to use just one benchmark.
  • Theresa May being
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
    Whenever people go on about Fred West and his "mistaken" behaviour with his kids, they ignore the many decades of excellent patio-laying he did around the Gloucester area. It's really annoying. You have to judge people in the round.
    There was substantial public demand for a vote on the EU. Cameron offered us one if we voted Conservative - and we did. And then we voted to Leave.

    Given you were one of the ones screaming for such a vote under one of your previous monikers in the early 2010s, and then subsequently voted "Leave" when he gave you the chance, what more would you have had him do?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    Surely winter 1066/7 was far worse.
    But at least then we had strong, stable government, albeit one which Harried the North and killed a third of Yorkshiremen,.
    Germany had strong government in the winter of 1944/45 but I doubt many Germans alive then remembered it fondly.
  • LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
    He could have won it, he only narrowly lost it.

    His renegotiation was a sham, quickly signed off without much fuss and without getting anything of what he had said he was seeking really. It was all meaningless nonsense and was the final straw for a lot of previously moderate Remainers like myself who came to realise the EU was unreformable.

    Especially since Cameron had given himself until the end of 2017 to have the referendum, swiftly signing off a meaningless deal in early 2016 just showed it to be very, very weak. Which is why he never really mentioned it again after he signed it.

    He could have put more effort into the renegotiation - or having failed in his renegotiation he could have said with reluctance he had to recommend Leave. He could have threatened to do that in his renegotiation.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,594
    LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    I like this bit:

    "Ælla then had Ragnar executed by throwing him into a pit of venomous snakes."
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
    Whenever people go on about Fred West and his "mistaken" behaviour with his kids, they ignore the many decades of excellent patio-laying he did around the Gloucester area. It's really annoying. You have to judge people in the round.
    “nobody mentions my years of public service… my work with the unions”

    Dennis Nilsen
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210

    nichomar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    As will many treatments currently provided by the NHS if this person gets her way.
    If they ever actually deliver this mad plan for daily testing then we will be in the covid emergency measures indefinitely (unless a fully working vaccine appears).

    It will produce false positives and so there will always be cases. So we will always be in measures. This is potentially a trap.

    MPs need to be urgently alert to the consequences of this plan.
    If you have rapid testing, then anyone getting a positive is immediately given another test, maybe a slightly slower and more accurate one.

    The chance of two false positives is presumably quite small.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    As will many treatments currently provided by the NHS if this person gets her way.
    If they ever actually deliver this mad plan for daily testing then we will be in the covid emergency measures indefinitely (unless a fully working vaccine appears).

    It will produce false positives and so there will always be cases. So we will always be in measures. This is potentially a trap.

    MPs need to be urgently alert to the consequences of this plan.
    If you have rapid testing, then anyone getting a positive is immediately given another test, maybe a slightly slower and more accurate one.

    The chance of two false positives is presumably quite small.
    Plus there won't be increasing rates of positivity which is the issue now. For some reason rottenborough still seems to think that the issue is having any cases at all rather than the increasing rates of cases.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Theresa May being

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
    Whenever people go on about Fred West and his "mistaken" behaviour with his kids, they ignore the many decades of excellent patio-laying he did around the Gloucester area. It's really annoying. You have to judge people in the round.
    There was substantial public demand for a vote on the EU. Cameron offered us one if we voted Conservative - and we did. And then we voted to Leave.

    Given you were one of the ones screaming for such a vote under one of your previous monikers in the early 2010s, and then subsequently voted "Leave" when he gave you the chance, what more would you have had him do?
    Fair point.

    I voted Remain, but PBers who demanded a referendum, voted Leave, then criticise Cameron for losing the referendum are a deeply odd, if not uncommon, breed.
  • FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.

    On paper Blair was a lopsided Europhile. In practice he was an Atlanticist who Americanised our society and pulled us away from the mainstream of Europe.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210
    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    The same reason that NY is doing better than other states.

    If you have a really traumatic experience, with ambulance sirens blaring through the night, and bodies stacking up in morgues, then people take social distancing seriously.
  • Theresa May being

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
    Whenever people go on about Fred West and his "mistaken" behaviour with his kids, they ignore the many decades of excellent patio-laying he did around the Gloucester area. It's really annoying. You have to judge people in the round.
    There was substantial public demand for a vote on the EU. Cameron offered us one if we voted Conservative - and we did. And then we voted to Leave.

    Given you were one of the ones screaming for such a vote under one of your previous monikers in the early 2010s, and then subsequently voted "Leave" when he gave you the chance, what more would you have had him do?
    Fair point.

    I voted Remain, but PBers who demanded a referendum, voted Leave, then criticise Cameron for losing the referendum are a deeply odd, if not uncommon, breed.
    I don't criticise Cameron for losing the referendum.

    I do criticise Cameron for failing in his renegotiations with the EU and then recommending a terrible, meaningless renegotiation as grounds for Remaining in the EU. He'd have been more honest to simply say he always thought the EU was worth remaining in, or actually getting reform if he felt it needed reform. Trying and failing to reform the EU just showed up the EU and his efforts as a failure.
  • FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.

    On paper Blair was a lopsided Europhile. In practice he was an Atlanticist who Americanised our society and pulled us away from the mainstream of Europe.
    We were always away from "the mainstream of Europe" thank goodness.

    Blair was incapable of dragging us down to the mainstream.
  • Who says gamblers are degenerates....(this is legit BTW, he is well know poker player)

    https://twitter.com/shaundeeb/status/1308118378708692995?s=20
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
    He could have won it, he only narrowly lost it.

    His renegotiation was a sham, quickly signed off without much fuss and without getting anything of what he had said he was seeking really. It was all meaningless nonsense and was the final straw for a lot of previously moderate Remainers like myself who came to realise the EU was unreformable.

    Especially since Cameron had given himself until the end of 2017 to have the referendum, swiftly signing off a meaningless deal in early 2016 just showed it to be very, very weak. Which is why he never really mentioned it again after he signed it.

    He could have put more effort into the renegotiation - or having failed in his renegotiation he could have said with reluctance he had to recommend Leave. He could have threatened to do that in his renegotiation.
    Yes, I agree with all of that. He royally fucked it up. Which is why he is the worst PM of my lifetime, with the possible but significant exception of Blair.

    Worst of all, he boasted that he wanted to be PM "because I think I'd be good at it". It was that arrogant Etonian complacency which did for him.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    The same reason that NY is doing better than other states.

    If you have a really traumatic experience, with ambulance sirens blaring through the night, and bodies stacking up in morgues, then people take social distancing seriously.
    Plus the virus has already killed the most susceptible, and more of those who remain have some level of immunity.

    Think of it as a bring-out-yer-dead-cat bounce.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited September 2020

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    The answer seems to be the Italians are scarred from earlier this year so are still obeying the rules.

    Plus social conformity is more real there.
    Yep. Everyone takes it seriously, everywhere. Probably 20% of people wear masks outdoors all the time, and everyone wears them when they are required.

    The only incongruity I have seen so far is Valery Gergiev pitching up in town yesterday with the Marinsky Orchestra for a well attended Mendlessohn evening. Very strange to see crowds coming out from a cultural event once again.

    And Italy’s testing is pretty sharp (see the ITV news story from last week).

    And Italy doesn’t have the drinking clubbing culture of the UK or Spanish resorts, and nightclubs and the like remain closed.
  • Drutt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    The same reason that NY is doing better than other states.

    If you have a really traumatic experience, with ambulance sirens blaring through the night, and bodies stacking up in morgues, then people take social distancing seriously.
    Plus the virus has already killed the most susceptible, and more of those who remain have some level of immunity.

    Think of it as a bring-out-yer-dead-cat bounce.
    An interesting stat that Carl Henegan said the other week. The UK had a mild couple of winters of flu and that resulted in about 15k extra very vulnerable people still being alive that would normally have died. So when the government failed to keep COVID out of care homes, there were all of these "excess" vulnerable waiting for COVID to kill.
  • FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.

    On paper Blair was a lopsided Europhile. In practice he was an Atlanticist who Americanised our society and pulled us away from the mainstream of Europe.
    We were always away from "the mainstream of Europe" thank goodness.

    Blair was incapable of dragging us down to the mainstream.
    Why "thank goodness"? Do you think Germany is so badly run?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited September 2020

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.

    On paper Blair was a lopsided Europhile. In practice he was an Atlanticist who Americanised our society and pulled us away from the mainstream of Europe.
    Blair actually took the position that the UK needed to be close to Europe, unlike the Eurosceptic right but also have a strong relationship with the USA, unlike the Anti American left, ie a bridge between the EU and USA however if we go to no deal Brexit under Boris and Biden becomes US president we will end up with a good relationship with neither and Boris will have to try and get what he can with the Commonwealth and build on his trade deal with Japan.

    You may not like Blair but he was our strongest PM on the international stage after Thatcher since Churchill
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited September 2020
    Curious to see the usual Boris apologists looking around for other PMs to blame tonight. I feel sorry for them. It must be terribly disappointing to invested so much into so little.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    I know I am taking this too seriously but 1940 springs to mind too.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited September 2020
    IanB2 said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    The answer seems to be the Italians are scarred from earlier this year so are still obeying the rules.

    Plus social conformity is more real there.
    Yep. Everyone takes it seriously, everywhere. Probably 20% of people wear masks outdoors all the time, and everyone wears them when they are required.

    The only incongruity I have seen so far is Valery Gergiev pitching up in town yesterday with the Marinsky Orchestra for a well attended Mendlessohn evening. Very strange to see crowds coming out from a cultural event once again.

    And Italy’s testing is pretty sharp (see the ITV news story from last week).

    And Italy doesn’t have the drinking clubbing culture of the UK or Spanish resorts, and nightclubs and the like remain closed.
    But the Italians are big huggers and kissers, they go to church, they have multi-generational families in one home, and they do congregate in cafes in big numbers. And the kids do like British style pubs.

    I can understand why, say, Lombardy is reacting like New York: they had a terrible first wave and everyone is scared. But Italy seems to be doing much better than France or Spain, nationwide, even in places like Sardinia or Sicily or Trentino which barely had a first wave (compared to Milan).
  • Jonathan said:

    Curious to see the usual Boris apologists looking around for other PMs to blame tonight. I feel sorry for them. It must be terribly disappointing to invested so much into so little.

    Boris's time will come.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    FWIW, some thoughts on how the Democrats are positioning their message. I'm sure I'll be accused of pushing a pro-Trump line but hey ho.

    (1) The Biden campaign seems to be relying heavily on TV adverts. Now TV advertising can be very effective but it works best when you are trying to establish a brand and widen its market (which is why many online companies use it) or keep things "ticking over" to remind people why you are there (eg Price Comparison Websites). Neither of those uses seem as though they would be useful for Biden. Trump's "brand" is already well known, as is Biden. You might say he could use it to promote Harris but that runs the risk of a Biden Administration being seen as a Harris one. In effect, Biden isn't putting his warchest advantage to good use.

    Trump has two advantages here on the advertising front despite the shortfall. First, he has been effectively campaigning for re-election for four years so he has already established and tent-poled his brand. Second, he gets a lot of earned media i.e. his events, words, tweets etc generate a lot of free publicity as they are reported online, on news programmes etc. Biden has to work harder for his airtime.

    (2) I do think the Democrats have fallen into Trump's trap on the whole SC justice position by threatening to go nuclear if they win the Senate and Presidency. What that has given the Republican campaign for the Senate is a handy message to deter ticket splitters. There are a number of states where Trump's chances of winning are higher than the existing Republican Senators - Montana is an obvious one, but so is Arizona, Iowa and North Carolina (Georgia may also fall into that category). Fine, that strategy works against the GOP in Colorado and you would probably put Maine at more risk (but you could give Collins a get out clause by allowing her to abstain) but, on balance, it probably favours the GOP to tie the Senate elections into Trump's
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    So if we're "3-4 weeks behind France and Spain" (why always France and Spain?) i assume based on today's figures that we can look forward to big drops in numbers in a few weeks...

    One big question is: why is Italy doing so much better than Spain or France, given that Italy started from a worse position?
    The same reason that NY is doing better than other states.

    If you have a really traumatic experience, with ambulance sirens blaring through the night, and bodies stacking up in morgues, then people take social distancing seriously.
    Do Italy have a ‘disco capital’ that attracts hoards of young people, are they prevalent in seaside resorts?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    BBC reporting Nicola has spoken to Boris and they are broadly on the same page and expect similar restrictons to be announced tomorrow pm for England and Scotland

    This is going to be the worst winter in the UK since the Great Heathen Army overwintered in Thetford in 865AD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
    I know I am taking this too seriously but 1940 springs to mind too.
    Yes, you're taking it too seriously.

    That said, I expect this to be the worst winter of my life, as a Briton. I was not around for the Great Heathen Army, 1066, or the Blitz.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Theresa May being

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    No competition. Johnson is easily the worst in my lifetime.
    David Cameron. Nearly lost the Union due to laziness, lost his own Brexit vote for the same reason. A total disaster. Johnson can be a buffoon but nothing he has done compares to Cameron's catastrophes. Remember: Cameron had to resign because he lost the referendum HE called on HIS terms at a time of HIS choosing.

    However Blair is very close behind, because of Iraq.
    If David Cameron was lazy then Boris Johnson is a quivering vegetable on life support.

    In truth he didn't understand the zeitgeist - he was applying New Labour era social policy and international policy whilst failing to clock the shifting sands beneath him - or get the right advice - relying on such sages as Andrew Cooper who didn't like those who didn't agree with him and didn't listen to them either.

    But, he was a competent Prime Minister. Very establishment but competent and capable.
    He was not competent and capable. He LOST the most important referendum in modern British history, the one HE called, and which HE decided he could not possibly lose.

    It's like saying Hitler was a really good leader of Germany because of the Volkswagen Beetle and the autobahns.
    Who do you think could have won it?

    You can't judge a PM solely on one act (Blair: Iraq, and Cameron: Brexit) you have to judge them in the round.

    FWIW whilst Iraq is Blair's most popular "mistake" I don't think it was his most serious one - his constitutional reforms and lopsided Europhilia were far more damaging to the UK.
    Whenever people go on about Fred West and his "mistaken" behaviour with his kids, they ignore the many decades of excellent patio-laying he did around the Gloucester area. It's really annoying. You have to judge people in the round.
    There was substantial public demand for a vote on the EU. Cameron offered us one if we voted Conservative - and we did. And then we voted to Leave.

    Given you were one of the ones screaming for such a vote under one of your previous monikers in the early 2010s, and then subsequently voted "Leave" when he gave you the chance, what more would you have had him do?
    Exactly. He let idiots like Sean have their say, and since it has now turned into the inevitable and entirely foreseeable fiasco, they are trying to dump the blame back on him.

    He should have listened to Clegg.
This discussion has been closed.