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  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    @Casino_Royale with all due respect, you’re happy to criticise all “Remainers” based on the actions of a few bellends. In fact you do on a regular basis.

    Now the government are acting very publicly like bellends so don’t be surprised if the whole of “your team” is criticised.

    My behaviour is far from perfect.

    But, you might want to find a better argument than "you started it".
    Wasn’t an argument, more just an observation.
    I am most certainly in the Keir Starmer “let them continue setting themselves on fire” camp.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    May didn't get us anywhere but here though
  • Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.
  • No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.
    See my tweet from 2016 posted below, this is the inevitable consequence of the Vote Leave campaign strategy, the one you campaigned for and voted for.

    Next you'll be telling us that Remain didn't warn leaving the EU had the potential to tear apart the Union.
    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    You just want to be right and to be seen to be right.

    So please piss off - there's a good chap.
    If what May agreed had been ratified then I'd have campaigned to renounce it 100% and be even more "Perfidious Albion" to get rid of that than we are today.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.

    People who voted REMAIN have a right to express a view - I voted LEAVE but I cannot abide the inference that anyone who voted REMAIN has no right to have a say in the country's future.

    That's not how democracy works - the tyranny of the majority cannot be allowed to be the way we operate. We all have a stake in the future, not just one group.

    I think the Opposition made a huge mistake not backing May's deal imperfect though it was. Instead, they got Johnson - now, I can't see why the EU should offer the benefits of the SM (of which I'm not a fan anyway) when we don't want to sign up to some key aspects.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited September 2020

    No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.
    See my tweet from 2016 posted below, this is the inevitable consequence of the Vote Leave campaign strategy, the one you campaigned for and voted for.

    Next you'll be telling us that Remain didn't warn leaving the EU had the potential to tear apart the Union.
    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    You just want to be right and to be seen to be right.

    So please piss off - there's a good chap.
    Here's what Alastair Meeks wrote in 2017 (similar to what I was planning to write)

    This has come as a surprise to pretty much everyone, including me. But we should not have been surprised. Only last year we saw the Leave campaign, characterised by incoherence and populism, succeed in winning a referendum against the Remain campaign which sought to stress stability and being sensible. It seems that right now a large part of the electorate isn’t very interested in being sensible. They want to roll the dice and see what happens.

    It seems that the Leavers might be running into the 7 Minute Abs problem. In that seminal film There’s Something About Mary, Ted picks up a hitchhiker who intends to make his fortune by making a video called 7 Minute Abs, snaffling all the sales of 8 Minute Abs. The hitchhiker gets driven into a wild rage when Ted innocently suggests that he might himself be undercut if someone brings out a 6 Minute Abs video. In the same way, if you peddle a fantasy to angry fearful people, there’s always the risk of being successfully outcrazied by another salesman.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.
  • Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.

    Whereas with Leavers, they seem to be like kids with no grasp of consequences.

    And the tantrums...
  • Scott_xP said:

    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    May didn't get us anywhere but here though
    Thankfully Remainers did us a huge favour in rejecting her soft Brexit. We didn't have the numbers in the last Parliament to get this by ourselves.
  • This is fucking mad!

    The ERG should propose an amendment that says: "Notwithstanding any legislation to the contrary, the remaining members of the European Union shall allow free and unencumbered passage for all British goods, subjects, capital and services."
    And "Notwithstanding any unusual local languages, all EU citizens must address loyal British subjects, wherever they are, in Her Majesty the Queens English."
    Now you're talking! This is what Cameron should have done instead of that renegotiation business.
    "All EU citizens, especially Germans, must agree to cede sovereignty of beach loungers, chairs and other pool furniture that they have falsely laid claim to with towels. All disputes must be resolved by the time honoured British tradition of the orderly queue."
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.
    See my tweet from 2016 posted below, this is the inevitable consequence of the Vote Leave campaign strategy, the one you campaigned for and voted for.

    Next you'll be telling us that Remain didn't warn leaving the EU had the potential to tear apart the Union.
    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    You just want to be right and to be seen to be right.

    So please piss off - there's a good chap.
    Line 2: possibly because TSE was right and has seen to be right. Many of us were right!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.

    Why do you care what we think? Our opinion has always been irrelevant to you.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.

    This is your project - this is what you campaigned for.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.

    Whereas lukewarm remainers who thought in 2016 that brexit campaigners could be trusted to come to a perfectly sensible eea, Norwayish kind of arrangement under which life would go on much as usual have learnt that there are a lot more insanely malevolent arseholes in the country than they optimistically supposed. You sound as if the only merit left in brexit is that it is something to rub your opponents' noses in. You are right.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/
  • stodge said:

    No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.

    People who voted REMAIN have a right to express a view - I voted LEAVE but I cannot abide the inference that anyone who voted REMAIN has no right to have a say in the country's future.

    That's not how democracy works - the tyranny of the majority cannot be allowed to be the way we operate. We all have a stake in the future, not just one group.

    I think the Opposition made a huge mistake not backing May's deal imperfect though it was. Instead, they got Johnson - now, I can't see why the EU should offer the benefits of the SM (of which I'm not a fan anyway) when we don't want to sign up to some key aspects.
    I agree with you.
  • stodge said:

    No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.

    People who voted REMAIN have a right to express a view - I voted LEAVE but I cannot abide the inference that anyone who voted REMAIN has no right to have a say in the country's future.

    That's not how democracy works - the tyranny of the majority cannot be allowed to be the way we operate. We all have a stake in the future, not just one group.

    I think the Opposition made a huge mistake not backing May's deal imperfect though it was. Instead, they got Johnson - now, I can't see why the EU should offer the benefits of the SM (of which I'm not a fan anyway) when we don't want to sign up to some key aspects.
    Well said! :+1:

    We might be on opposite sides of the debate, but if all Leavers (and Remainers) had your attitude the whole thing might be doable, or at least, salvageable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Not even close.
    So considering the QC here is hardly a Brexiteer but is saying exactly what I was saying, from before I saw him say it, please tell me what he has got wrong here?
    Because - briefly - Parliamentary sovereignty and the rule of law are not the same thing.

    You think, wrongly, that the first is the same as the second and the only thing necessary for the second to exist.

    If you really want to understand this topic, I can only advise you to read Tom Bingham’s The Rule of Law, available in paperback for £7.55. Not a long book, very wise and elegantly written and as clear an explanation as you can get without needing to train as a lawyer.

    (Or more cheekily you can read this - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/11/political-rights-and-wrongs/ - which makes a similar point about Parliament, even as a law-maker, being constrained by and subject to, the rule of law.)
    A fine article.
    The comment at the top of the thread is also a pearl.
  • Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.

    This is your project - this is what you campaigned for.
    Bollocks did I campaign for this.

    Wanker.
  • Turns out that we've been following the new rules which means we've inadvertently broken the old rules.

  • Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.

    Why do you care what we think? Our opinion has always been irrelevant to you.
    No it hasn't.

    Prick.
  • No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.
    See my tweet from 2016 posted below, this is the inevitable consequence of the Vote Leave campaign strategy, the one you campaigned for and voted for.

    Next you'll be telling us that Remain didn't warn leaving the EU had the potential to tear apart the Union.
    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    You just want to be right and to be seen to be right.

    So please piss off - there's a good chap.
    Line 2: possibly because TSE was right and has seen to be right. Many of us were right!
    Nob.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Doncaster Racecourse's Owners, Arena Racing Company, are estimating the loss of the three planned "crowd days" at the track to be £250k while Goodwood's aborted crowd pilot last month lost the track £100k.

    The problem for the larger racecourses is they derive 50-70% of their income from spectator spend especially at big weekend fixtures. Smaller tracks racing midweek survive from media rights so they can keep going up to a point.

    The loss of the summer season will be a hammer blow for many tracks particularly the lucrative evening cards. The plan to allow crowds back from next month looks in jeopardy so will the big Autumn meetings also take place without crowds?

  • Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.

    Whereas with Leavers, they seem to be like kids with no grasp of consequences.

    And the tantrums...
    And still far more intelligent than you.

    You've been an idiot and will always be an idiot.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Ultra-Remainers, like the Bourbons, have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    So they live to experience the same lessons all over again.

    Why do you care what we think? Our opinion has always been irrelevant to you.
    No it hasn't.

    Prick.
    You’ve got a funny way of showing it.
  • It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.

    Bollocks - again.

    I said it was a good compromise for everyone at the time.

    Try again.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited September 2020
    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It is a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.
  • No Deal must be odds on now
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    I think Starmer has definitely learnt some of the lessons of the previous parliament judging by his lines on the Gov'ts mess this week. He's doing well.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited September 2020
    We don't need Covid "moonshots" We need need boring, consistent policy ...

    FF43 said:

    Problem is, governments (not just the Johnson one) have no plan that they have shared with the public for living with the virus. They did lockdown and then piecemeal unlockdown. They need a plan that allows as much as possible of normal life while keeping the epidemic in check. IMO this plan needs to cover:

    • Best hygiene practices - Currently not diligent enough to keep R down. We need masks at all times in public except where transmission risk is low; sanitisation; rigorous distancing in confined and crowded spaces. All this needs to be enforced.
    • Risk mitigation for the activities that are allowed - Better on this but the rules need some tightening up
    • Choice of activities that are allowed. eg if opening schools is important that might mean, even if the two points above are sorted out, that other activities like going into the office when not required should be deprecated, to keep R within 1
  • No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.
    See my tweet from 2016 posted below, this is the inevitable consequence of the Vote Leave campaign strategy, the one you campaigned for and voted for.

    Next you'll be telling us that Remain didn't warn leaving the EU had the potential to tear apart the Union.
    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    You just want to be right and to be seen to be right.

    So please piss off - there's a good chap.
    Here's what Alastair Meeks wrote in 2017 (similar to what I was planning to write)

    This has come as a surprise to pretty much everyone, including me. But we should not have been surprised. Only last year we saw the Leave campaign, characterised by incoherence and populism, succeed in winning a referendum against the Remain campaign which sought to stress stability and being sensible. It seems that right now a large part of the electorate isn’t very interested in being sensible. They want to roll the dice and see what happens.

    It seems that the Leavers might be running into the 7 Minute Abs problem. In that seminal film There’s Something About Mary, Ted picks up a hitchhiker who intends to make his fortune by making a video called 7 Minute Abs, snaffling all the sales of 8 Minute Abs. The hitchhiker gets driven into a wild rage when Ted innocently suggests that he might himself be undercut if someone brings out a 6 Minute Abs video. In the same way, if you peddle a fantasy to angry fearful people, there’s always the risk of being successfully outcrazied by another salesman.
    I read the thread. But this outcome wasn't and isn't inevitable.

    Ultra Leavers and Ultra Remainers want it for different reasons.

    The former for purity and out of ideology. The latter so they can be seen to be right and smugly rub others noses in it.

    Moderates are left high and dry in the middle.

    Now I'm logging off - before I truly do lose my temper.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.

    Bollocks - again.

    I said it was a good compromise for everyone at the time.

    Try again.
    But it wasn’t a good compromise, it only seems to be a good compromise *now* because of how far we’ve come. May, egged on by your “side” basically shifted the overton window so far towards “hard brexit” and basically said “its either this or no deal”. That’s extortion not a friendly compromise.

    It doesn’t matter anymore now anyway. We are where we are. There’s plenty of leavers who are thrilled with where we are. We’ll see how it goes.
  • LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It is a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    Sean's alter-ego is angry man this week then
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It is a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    We are already out...
  • stodge said:

    Doncaster Racecourse's Owners, Arena Racing Company, are estimating the loss of the three planned "crowd days" at the track to be £250k while Goodwood's aborted crowd pilot last month lost the track £100k.

    The problem for the larger racecourses is they derive 50-70% of their income from spectator spend especially at big weekend fixtures. Smaller tracks racing midweek survive from media rights so they can keep going up to a point.

    The loss of the summer season will be a hammer blow for many tracks particularly the lucrative evening cards. The plan to allow crowds back from next month looks in jeopardy so will the big Autumn meetings also take place without crowds?

    Sport wont have crowds here until 2-3 months after a vaccine is released so you are looking at summer next year at the earliest. The trials will be cancelled over the next week (no inside info, just common sense).
  • The rule of 6 is hilarious. "Yes of course you can still go to the pub, just not with more than 5 other people". Because its far safer to be close by someone you don't know than that 6th member of your own family. "Of course you can go to school" and all walk home together across the park. Just don't play football on the way home.

    I'm not sure what alternative you would prefer?

    Short of a complete free for all (which can be argued for) a line has to be drawn somewhere. If this is "hilarious" then where would you draw the line?
    Where is the line being drawn though? You can't have a gathering of more than 6 unless its down the pub. You can't have gangs of teenagers meeting up in the park but gangs of teenagers walk home from school in a massive group and thats ok. Unless they start playing football at which point it isn't.

    We are at crunch point. A simple rule that is contradictory and patently nonsense will be as well regarded and respected as the contradictory nonsense that have just been replaced. If the balance is that we shouldn't have gatherings of more than 6 then shut the pubs.
  • LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It it a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    The Lisbon Treaty is a perfect example of why I have zero respect for "international law" and I why I couldn't care less if "international law" is broken.

    The Labour Government was elected on a manifesto promise not to implement the Constitution before a referendum, then they rebadged it and implemented it anyway, thus it became "international law".

    Basic minimum standards like the ECHR are one thing for "international law" but too often nowadays its just simply politics through another means . . . and if its just politics, it must be reversible.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited September 2020

    Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.
    See my tweet from 2016 posted below, this is the inevitable consequence of the Vote Leave campaign strategy, the one you campaigned for and voted for.

    Next you'll be telling us that Remain didn't warn leaving the EU had the potential to tear apart the Union.
    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    You just want to be right and to be seen to be right.

    So please piss off - there's a good chap.
    Here's what Alastair Meeks wrote in 2017 (similar to what I was planning to write)

    This has come as a surprise to pretty much everyone, including me. But we should not have been surprised. Only last year we saw the Leave campaign, characterised by incoherence and populism, succeed in winning a referendum against the Remain campaign which sought to stress stability and being sensible. It seems that right now a large part of the electorate isn’t very interested in being sensible. They want to roll the dice and see what happens.

    It seems that the Leavers might be running into the 7 Minute Abs problem. In that seminal film There’s Something About Mary, Ted picks up a hitchhiker who intends to make his fortune by making a video called 7 Minute Abs, snaffling all the sales of 8 Minute Abs. The hitchhiker gets driven into a wild rage when Ted innocently suggests that he might himself be undercut if someone brings out a 6 Minute Abs video. In the same way, if you peddle a fantasy to angry fearful people, there’s always the risk of being successfully outcrazied by another salesman.
    I read the thread. But this outcome wasn't and isn't inevitable.

    Ultra Leavers and Ultra Remainers want it for different reasons.

    The former for purity and out of ideology. The latter so they can be seen to be right and smugly rub others noses in it.

    Moderates are left high and dry in the middle.

    Now I'm logging off - before I truly do lose my temper.
    You played with matches just for a bit of fun, and burnt the house down. So what if it wasn't inevitable that the house would burn down? It happened.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210
    LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It is a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    You do realise that the Internal Market Bill is not just incompatible with the Withdrawal Agreement, but with pretty much every other treaty the UK is party to, right?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I’m not going to argue with you again @TheScreamingEagles. We’ll see what happens, if anything.
  • It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.

    Bollocks - again.

    I said it was a good compromise for everyone at the time.

    Try again.
    But it wasn’t a good compromise, it only seems to be a good compromise *now* because of how far we’ve come. May, egged on by your “side” basically shifted the overton window so far towards “hard brexit” and basically said “its either this or no deal”. That’s extortion not a friendly compromise.

    It doesn’t matter anymore now anyway. We are where we are. There’s plenty of leavers who are thrilled with where we are. We’ll see how it goes.
    May's deal with its backstop was insanely soft, not hard. That's why so many Leave campaigners rejected it.

    All parties before the referendum agreed that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market, so how was May shifting the Overton window towards hard?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited September 2020

    It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.

    Bollocks - again.

    I said it was a good compromise for everyone at the time.

    Try again.
    But it wasn’t a good compromise, it only seems to be a good compromise *now* because of how far we’ve come. May, egged on by your “side” basically shifted the overton window so far towards “hard brexit” and basically said “its either this or no deal”. That’s extortion not a friendly compromise.

    It doesn’t matter anymore now anyway. We are where we are. There’s plenty of leavers who are thrilled with where we are. We’ll see how it goes.
    May's deal with its backstop was insanely soft, not hard. That's why so many Leave campaigners rejected it.

    All parties before the referendum agreed that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market, so how was May shifting the Overton window towards hard?
    Another lie. No they did not. Absolutely nothing was agreed. That is the problem we are STILL trying to solve.
  • Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It it a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    The Lisbon Treaty is a perfect example of why I have zero respect for "international law" and I why I couldn't care less if "international law" is broken.

    The Labour Government was elected on a manifesto promise not to implement the Constitution before a referendum, then they rebadged it and implemented it anyway, thus it became "international law".

    Basic minimum standards like the ECHR are one thing for "international law" but too often nowadays its just simply politics through another means . . . and if its just politics, it must be reversible.
    The moment they smuggled through the Constitution as "the Lisbon Treaty" simply as a means to avoid the No votes in multiple referendums, was the moment when I realised the EU was not just arrogant, reprehensible and wearisome. but actively and repugnantly malign. A damnable thing. A vile construct, made for, by and via elites for the elite.

    At that point it became justifiable to oppose it by any means, up to and including armed rebellion. I do not joke.

    The EU is a piece of shit. If we have to break "international law" to get as far from its clutches as possible, then so be it. The greater moral good must prevail.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    Turns out that we've been following the new rules which means we've inadvertently broken the old rules.

    This was all predictable - I said on here a few weeks ago if cases spiked and restrictions were re-imposed the "public had only themselves to blame".

    I'll nuance that slightly - the Government, facing the consequences of continuing restrictions, took the view the possible health consequences of lifting restrictions offset the inevitable economic consequences of not doing so.

    The problem was for a population basically deprived of normality for three or four months, the return of something approaching the life we used to have was to be embraced. The risk was worth taking to enjoy that life we had lost.

    Perhaps.

    The breakdown in the discipline of lockdown began at Easter in all honesty - the capriciously fine weather in early April was too much for those confined and from then on it has been a battle of mitigating risk versus reward.

    Johnson has to be positive and optimistic - he has to try to tell the public there is light at the end of the tunnel even if the grandiose plans and schemes (pace Trump) fall apart under the least rigorous analysis.

    As someone once said "you would have hope and that's the one thing you don't have now". Sometimes, that's all a Prime Minister can ever provide - certainly it worked for WSC,
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    The weirdest part about this fight is that I doubt any blue wallers give two hoots about Northern Ireland. Selling it down the river aiui was basically the price for Boris getting his amazing deal. Seems a weird hill to die on, perhaps theres a strategy behind it all though :neutral:
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    LadyG said:

    The greater moral good must prevail.

    Cummings and BoZo are not, and never have been, the greater moral good
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It is a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    You do realise that the Internal Market Bill is not just incompatible with the Withdrawal Agreement, but with pretty much every other treaty the UK is party to, right?
    Yes. It's time for us to Go Rogue.
  • It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.

    Bollocks - again.

    I said it was a good compromise for everyone at the time.

    Try again.
    But it wasn’t a good compromise, it only seems to be a good compromise *now* because of how far we’ve come. May, egged on by your “side” basically shifted the overton window so far towards “hard brexit” and basically said “its either this or no deal”. That’s extortion not a friendly compromise.

    It doesn’t matter anymore now anyway. We are where we are. There’s plenty of leavers who are thrilled with where we are. We’ll see how it goes.
    May's deal with its backstop was insanely soft, not hard. That's why so many Leave campaigners rejected it.

    All parties before the referendum agreed that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market, so how was May shifting the Overton window towards hard?
    Another lie. No they did not. Absolutely nothing was agreed. That is the problem we are STILL trying to solve.
    How did May make the Overton window any harder than this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJt3bEA_ylg

    The backstop was far softer than anything any campaign mentioned.
  • Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
    Here's the link.

    https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/Boradmembers.aspx

    Honestly Newcastle United Football Club should rename themselves Newcastle United Comedy Club for putting out that statement.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.

    Bollocks - again.

    I said it was a good compromise for everyone at the time.

    Try again.
    But it wasn’t a good compromise, it only seems to be a good compromise *now* because of how far we’ve come. May, egged on by your “side” basically shifted the overton window so far towards “hard brexit” and basically said “its either this or no deal”. That’s extortion not a friendly compromise.

    It doesn’t matter anymore now anyway. We are where we are. There’s plenty of leavers who are thrilled with where we are. We’ll see how it goes.
    May's deal with its backstop was insanely soft, not hard. That's why so many Leave campaigners rejected it.

    All parties before the referendum agreed that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market, so how was May shifting the Overton window towards hard?
    Another lie. No they did not. Absolutely nothing was agreed. That is the problem we are STILL trying to solve.
    How did May make the Overton window any harder than this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJt3bEA_ylg

    The backstop was far softer than anything any campaign mentioned.
    Total rubbish as usual from you.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    stodge said:

    As someone once said "you would have hope and that's the one thing you don't have now". Sometimes, that's all a Prime Minister can ever provide - certainly it worked for WSC,

    Nope

    WSC was a leader, and he had lots of good people working for him.

    BoZo isn't, and doesn't.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
    Here's the link.

    https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/Boradmembers.aspx

    Honestly Newcastle United Football Club should rename themselves Newcastle United Comedy Club for putting out that statement.
    And if they successfully appeal?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    No. Don't put me off.

    God, Remainers really don't know how to play their cards, do they? They never have.

    I'm in favour of a moderate practical sensible Brexit that respects reality and the rule of law. Like May's Deal. Or this one with a full FTA. I always have been.

    I don't favour an ideological scorched earth approach to everything and everyone in the pursuit of its perfect purity. That's what's mad.

    And, whenever I think I might finally be in a position to modify my views, up pops a Remainer like you to say "told you so" and reminds me why I voted Leave in the first place.

    Remainers should just STFU. They haven't a clue and are too far up their own arseholes (as @Pulpstar so aptly put it earlier) to influence anything or anyone.
    See my tweet from 2016 posted below, this is the inevitable consequence of the Vote Leave campaign strategy, the one you campaigned for and voted for.

    Next you'll be telling us that Remain didn't warn leaving the EU had the potential to tear apart the Union.
    There was nothing inevitable about ending in this place, as May showed.

    You just want to be right and to be seen to be right.

    So please piss off - there's a good chap.
    Here's what Alastair Meeks wrote in 2017 (similar to what I was planning to write)

    This has come as a surprise to pretty much everyone, including me. But we should not have been surprised. Only last year we saw the Leave campaign, characterised by incoherence and populism, succeed in winning a referendum against the Remain campaign which sought to stress stability and being sensible. It seems that right now a large part of the electorate isn’t very interested in being sensible. They want to roll the dice and see what happens.

    It seems that the Leavers might be running into the 7 Minute Abs problem. In that seminal film There’s Something About Mary, Ted picks up a hitchhiker who intends to make his fortune by making a video called 7 Minute Abs, snaffling all the sales of 8 Minute Abs. The hitchhiker gets driven into a wild rage when Ted innocently suggests that he might himself be undercut if someone brings out a 6 Minute Abs video. In the same way, if you peddle a fantasy to angry fearful people, there’s always the risk of being successfully outcrazied by another salesman.
    I read the thread. But this outcome wasn't and isn't inevitable.

    Ultra Leavers and Ultra Remainers want it for different reasons.

    The former for purity and out of ideology. The latter so they can be seen to be right and smugly rub others noses in it.

    Moderates are left high and dry in the middle.

    Now I'm logging off - before I truly do lose my temper.
    You played with matches just for a bit of fun, and burnt the house down. So what if it wasn't inevitable that the house would burn down? It happened.
    Can I nick that for an upcoming thread?
  • Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
    Here's the link.

    https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/Boradmembers.aspx

    Honestly Newcastle United Football Club should rename themselves Newcastle United Comedy Club for putting out that statement.
    And if they successfully appeal?
    Unlikely.

    Remember I've been completely right on this takeover whence it started.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Another day, another lurch towards covid authoritarianism. Politicians read this site. Someone somewhere, please stand up against this insidious dangerous nonsense. There’s a growing body of public opinion that will hail you as a hero because right now, no one is speaking up for them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    The day the fanbois realise that in addition to fucking up Covid, BoZo is going to fuck up Brexit will be spectacular...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
    Here's the link.

    https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/Boradmembers.aspx

    Honestly Newcastle United Football Club should rename themselves Newcastle United Comedy Club for putting out that statement.
    And if they successfully appeal?
    Unlikely.

    Remember I've been completely right on this takeover whence it started.
    You haven’t. You said they wouldn’t need to officially reject the takeover and that they could just let it hang. Well here they are officially rejecting it.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Pulpstar said:

    I think Starmer has definitely learnt some of the lessons of the previous parliament judging by his lines on the Gov'ts mess this week. He's doing well.

    One of his best days as LOTO.

    Very sensible of him today to say we are all leavers now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's people have said similiar. So that'll be the EU and the USA potentially prevented from trade deals. Probably best and simplest just to unify the island of Ireland at this point, it costs a bomb too - a nice christmas present for Michael Martin.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Pulpstar said:

    The weirdest part about this fight is that I doubt any blue wallers give two hoots about Northern Ireland. Selling it down the river aiui was basically the price for Boris getting his amazing deal. Seems a weird hill to die on, perhaps theres a strategy behind it all though :neutral:

    Boris big, big mistake is in announcing his "amazing deal" was a pile of crap. Once you do an amazing deal it needs to stay amazing through thick and thin.
  • It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.

    Bollocks - again.

    I said it was a good compromise for everyone at the time.

    Try again.
    But it wasn’t a good compromise, it only seems to be a good compromise *now* because of how far we’ve come. May, egged on by your “side” basically shifted the overton window so far towards “hard brexit” and basically said “its either this or no deal”. That’s extortion not a friendly compromise.

    It doesn’t matter anymore now anyway. We are where we are. There’s plenty of leavers who are thrilled with where we are. We’ll see how it goes.
    May's deal with its backstop was insanely soft, not hard. That's why so many Leave campaigners rejected it.

    All parties before the referendum agreed that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market, so how was May shifting the Overton window towards hard?
    Another lie. No they did not. Absolutely nothing was agreed. That is the problem we are STILL trying to solve.
    How did May make the Overton window any harder than this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJt3bEA_ylg

    The backstop was far softer than anything any campaign mentioned.
    Total rubbish as usual from you.
    No rubbish its totally explicit.

    Both campaigns said openly and honestly that we would leave the Single Market. Nick Clegg referred to Leave campaigners "coming clean" about wanting to leave the Single Market.

    Yet you claim that May pushed the Overton Window to be harder? How? In what possible way did May move the Overton Window to being harder?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's people have said similiar. So that'll be the EU and the USA potentially prevented from trade deals. Probably best and simplest just to unify the island of Ireland at this point, it costs a bomb too - a nice christmas present for Michael Martin.
    Could Ireland say, err, "no"?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
    Here's the link.

    https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/Boradmembers.aspx

    Honestly Newcastle United Football Club should rename themselves Newcastle United Comedy Club for putting out that statement.
    And if they successfully appeal?
    Will the Saudis be paying in suitcases full of cash, or khash :D ?
  • Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
    Here's the link.

    https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/Boradmembers.aspx

    Honestly Newcastle United Football Club should rename themselves Newcastle United Comedy Club for putting out that statement.
    And if they successfully appeal?
    Unlikely.

    Remember I've been completely right on this takeover whence it started.
    You haven’t. You said they wouldn’t need to officially reject the takeover and that they could just let it hang. Well here they are officially rejecting it.
    No I said they would let it hang until the new owners responded, they did submit something, and the PL rejected it.

    That's what the Athletic have said happened.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Boo hoo.

    The EU's negotiating hasn't been honourable either. Now they're upset the UK is playing at the big boy table.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Trump news - live: President admits 'playing down' true danger of coronavirus in shocking new tapes
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's people have said similiar. So that'll be the EU and the USA potentially prevented from trade deals. Probably best and simplest just to unify the island of Ireland at this point, it costs a bomb too - a nice christmas present for Michael Martin.
    The UK does not benefit immediately and greatly from a US FTA. Not signing one obviates the need for all the shite-fest about chlorinated chicken, as well.
  • tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's people have said similiar. So that'll be the EU and the USA potentially prevented from trade deals. Probably best and simplest just to unify the island of Ireland at this point, it costs a bomb too - a nice christmas present for Michael Martin.
    Could Ireland say, err, "no"?
    Unlikely, it'll be like the reunification of Germany, economically it made no sense for West Germany to take on East Germany, but emotionally it made sense.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    LadyG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It is a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    You do realise that the Internal Market Bill is not just incompatible with the Withdrawal Agreement, but with pretty much every other treaty the UK is party to, right?
    Yes. It's time for us to Go Rogue.
    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/03/11/political-rights-and-wrongs/

    (+ comment at top of thread)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It it a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    The Lisbon Treaty is a perfect example of why I have zero respect for "international law" and I why I couldn't care less if "international law" is broken.

    The Labour Government was elected on a manifesto promise not to implement the Constitution before a referendum, then they rebadged it and implemented it anyway, thus it became "international law".

    Basic minimum standards like the ECHR are one thing for "international law" but too often nowadays its just simply politics through another means . . . and if its just politics, it must be reversible.
    The moment they smuggled through the Constitution as "the Lisbon Treaty" simply as a means to avoid the No votes in multiple referendums, was the moment when I realised the EU was not just arrogant, reprehensible and wearisome. but actively and repugnantly malign. A damnable thing. A vile construct, made for, by and via elites for the elite.

    At that point it became justifiable to oppose it by any means, up to and including armed rebellion. I do not joke.

    The EU is a piece of shit. If we have to break "international law" to get as far from its clutches as possible, then so be it. The greater moral good must prevail.
    It can’t be long before we get the “EU is like the Soviet Union” argument.

    Time to go and leave the Leavers to it.
  • Keir has made us lefties proud today, we're getting closer to Government each day
  • Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
    Here's the link.

    https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/Boradmembers.aspx

    Honestly Newcastle United Football Club should rename themselves Newcastle United Comedy Club for putting out that statement.
    The fact that their URL is ".gov" should be an indicator that its not "independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government"
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Newcastle United have released a statement saying that the Premier League have now formally rejected the proposed takeover bid, and that they are “considering all relevant options available to them”.

    Interesting.

    https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/club-statement-1/

    Fucking hell, NUFC are telling bigger whoppers than Boris Johnson.

    'Newcastle United can confirm that the Premier League has rejected a takeover bid made by PCP Capital Partners, the Reuben Brothers and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia (PIF) based on its Owners and Directors test.

    This conclusion has been reached despite the club providing the Premier League with overwhelming evidence and legal opinions that PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.'


    Now let us look at the board of PIF.

    The board contains the following

    Ibrahim Abdulaziz Al-Assaf - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Majid Abdullah Al Qasabi - Minister of Commerce

    Mohammad Abdul Malek Al Shaikh - Minister of State and member of the Saudi Council of Ministers

    Ahmed Aqeel Al-Khateeb - Minister of Tourism

    Khalid Abdulaziz Al-Falih - Minister of Investment

    Mohammed Abdullah Al-Jadaan - Minister of Finance

    and I nearly forget because it isn't important, the chairman of PIF Mohammad bin Salman, I mean he's only the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    But yes, PIF is independent and autonomous of the Saudi Arabian government.

    That does sound pretty conclusive!
    Here's the link.

    https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/Boradmembers.aspx

    Honestly Newcastle United Football Club should rename themselves Newcastle United Comedy Club for putting out that statement.
    And if they successfully appeal?
    Unlikely.

    Remember I've been completely right on this takeover whence it started.
    You haven’t. You said they wouldn’t need to officially reject the takeover and that they could just let it hang. Well here they are officially rejecting it.
    No I said they would let it hang until the new owners responded, they did submit something, and the PL rejected it.

    That's what the Athletic have said happened.
    We’ll see. For what it is worth I think you are right.
  • Scott_xP said:
    There never has been any chance of a UK-US deal happening, which makes it weird why people talk about it so much. At a minimum it needs all 3 branches of US govt in the same party hands, probably for a 4 year period, and the UK to concede on everything.

    The first is unlikely, the second extremely unlikely, the third maybe.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Ha! She will regret it when the US Car Lobby forces her to give in to the UK... Ford, Chrysler and GM will save us....

    Errr..... :open_mouth:
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Cyclefree said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    The EU is the quintessence of Perfidy. It it a lie in and of itself. "This is not the Giscard Constitution just hastily relabelled to avoid referendums, no no no, it it is a brand new Treaty. Honest. Really. Truly".

    I see nothing wrong with the UK responding in a like manner. Finally.

    Fuck the EU, fuck the moaners just get the fuck out and if they cause a stir summon the militias. Let the russet coated yeomen of England do what they're good at.

    The Lisbon Treaty is a perfect example of why I have zero respect for "international law" and I why I couldn't care less if "international law" is broken.

    The Labour Government was elected on a manifesto promise not to implement the Constitution before a referendum, then they rebadged it and implemented it anyway, thus it became "international law".

    Basic minimum standards like the ECHR are one thing for "international law" but too often nowadays its just simply politics through another means . . . and if its just politics, it must be reversible.
    The moment they smuggled through the Constitution as "the Lisbon Treaty" simply as a means to avoid the No votes in multiple referendums, was the moment when I realised the EU was not just arrogant, reprehensible and wearisome. but actively and repugnantly malign. A damnable thing. A vile construct, made for, by and via elites for the elite.

    At that point it became justifiable to oppose it by any means, up to and including armed rebellion. I do not joke.

    The EU is a piece of shit. If we have to break "international law" to get as far from its clutches as possible, then so be it. The greater moral good must prevail.
    It can’t be long before we get the “EU is like the Soviet Union” argument.

    Time to go and leave the Leavers to it.
    I'm not arguing, or opining, I am stating the case. The EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty was an absolute outrage, far greater than anything the UK proposes to do. It was a kind of euro-Federalist coup d'etat. Wars have been fought over much less.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315
    moonshine said:

    Another day, another lurch towards covid authoritarianism. Politicians read this site. Someone somewhere, please stand up against this insidious dangerous nonsense. There’s a growing body of public opinion that will hail you as a hero because right now, no one is speaking up for them.

    I’m doing my best .....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Scott_xP said:
    There never has been any chance of a UK-US deal happening, which makes it weird why people talk about it so much. At a minimum it needs all 3 branches of US govt in the same party hands, probably for a 4 year period, and the UK to concede on everything.

    The first is unlikely, the second extremely unlikely, the third maybe.
    Getting the UK's population to half a billion it is then. We'll have to concrete the Pennines and Dartmoor but it should give us decent economic clout.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's people have said similiar. So that'll be the EU and the USA potentially prevented from trade deals. Probably best and simplest just to unify the island of Ireland at this point, it costs a bomb too - a nice christmas present for Michael Martin.
    There is always Turkey
  • Cyclefree said:

    moonshine said:

    Another day, another lurch towards covid authoritarianism. Politicians read this site. Someone somewhere, please stand up against this insidious dangerous nonsense. There’s a growing body of public opinion that will hail you as a hero because right now, no one is speaking up for them.

    I’m doing my best .....
    Where is David Davis? Didn't he resign his seat over liberty issues?
  • Woman in Rochdale fined twice in same day for refusing to wear face mask in supermarket

    The woman received two £100 fixed penalty notices in one afternoon

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/woman-rochdale-fined-twice-same-18907903
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    The only possible factor is that the Premier League is not cash rich. Can they afford extended and expensive litigation @TheScreamingEagles ?
  • It’s interesting that the more sane leavers are angry at Remainers for not going for May’s deal, despite at the time continuing their “you lost, so suck it up losers” rhetoric rather than a “let’s get a compromise that’s good for everyone”.

    Bollocks - again.

    I said it was a good compromise for everyone at the time.

    Try again.
    But it wasn’t a good compromise, it only seems to be a good compromise *now* because of how far we’ve come. May, egged on by your “side” basically shifted the overton window so far towards “hard brexit” and basically said “its either this or no deal”. That’s extortion not a friendly compromise.

    It doesn’t matter anymore now anyway. We are where we are. There’s plenty of leavers who are thrilled with where we are. We’ll see how it goes.

    All parties before the referendum agreed that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market.
    Not true
    Completely true. Here are multiple explicit examples, all taken in the days before the vote.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJt3bEA_ylg

    Please find even a example of a major party on either side during the referendum campaign saying the UK could vote Leave and Remain in the Single Market.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Scott_xP said:
    Ha! She will regret it when the US Car Lobby forces her to give in to the UK... Ford, Chrysler and GM will save us....

    Errr..... :open_mouth:
    We hold ALL the cards!
  • Good. Lets see how much "political will" they have to compromise. There's not been much to date.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Some on here are still behind the curve...

    https://twitter.com/K_Niemietz/status/1303789712012988420
  • Good. Lets see how much "political will" they have to compromise. There's not been much to date.
    Boris Johnson will capitulate or it is No Deal.

    The EU will not capitulate, they never have.
This discussion has been closed.