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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Fisking the PM – examining the background to his controversial

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 7 in General
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Fisking the PM – examining the background to his controversial EU move

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesman confirms they will pass a new law to "clarify specific elements of the Northern Ireland Protocol in domestic law.”EU warns any attempt to renege on the Brexit withdrawal agreement will wreck any chance of a trade deal. https://t.co/6VDYBuWWwM

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 3,602
    First
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,596
    edited September 7
    The winning Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.
     Raise standards in areas like workers’
    rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
    the environment.
     Ensure we are in full control of our
    fishing waters.'

    The current EU position does not allow for that.

    In that case the Tory manifesto also promised 'we will not extend the implementation
    period beyond December 2020'
    https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative 2019 Manifesto.pdf
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,024

    Excellent piece.

    The stifling of Parliament, the emasculation of the judiciary, the attacks on the media and lawyers, the breaking of international treaties are all happening in plain sight. Right wingers who have spent years talking piously about liberty and democracy have absolutely no problem with any of it.

    Yes but. As the number of Covid cases rise, and folk begin to observe the many shortcomings of the PM.
    Hey Presto we're talking about Brexit.
    Job done.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,049
    HYUFD said:

    In that case the Tory manifesto also promised 'we will not extend the implementation
    period beyond December 2020'

    So instead of extending the "implementation period", we agree a brand new "adaptation phase"?
  • HYUFD said:

    The Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.

    The current EU position does not allow for that.'

    In that case the Tory manifesto also promised 'we will not extend the implementation
    period beyond December 2020'
    https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative 2019 Manifesto.pdf

    Where did the Tory Party manifesto promise to undermine and violate treaties we've signed, aren't you supposed to be the law and order party?

    Before you answer, if another country decided to violate treaties they had signed with us, I am sure you would expect the UK to react strongly.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 13,980
    dixiedean said:

    Excellent piece.

    The stifling of Parliament, the emasculation of the judiciary, the attacks on the media and lawyers, the breaking of international treaties are all happening in plain sight. Right wingers who have spent years talking piously about liberty and democracy have absolutely no problem with any of it.

    Yes but. As the number of Covid cases rise, and folk begin to observe the many shortcomings of the PM.
    Hey Presto we're talking about Brexit.
    Job done.
    Trump playbook if so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,596

    HYUFD said:

    The Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.

    The current EU position does not allow for that.'

    In that case the Tory manifesto also promised 'we will not extend the implementation
    period beyond December 2020'
    https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative 2019 Manifesto.pdf

    Where did the Tory Party manifesto promise to undermine and violate treaties we've signed, aren't you supposed to be the law and order party?

    Before you answer, if another country decided to violate treaties they had signed with us, I am sure you would expect the UK to react strongly.
    'This will be a new relationship based on free trade and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s treaties or EU law. There will be no political alignment with the EU.'

    If the UK avoids a hard border in the Irish Sea it will still not impose a hard border within Ireland as per the Withdrawal Agreement and as Parliament is sovereign and the Tories have an 80 seat majority can amend the WA accordingly to reflect that
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 13,980

    HYUFD said:

    In that case the Tory manifesto also promised 'we will not extend the implementation
    period beyond December 2020'

    So instead of extending the "implementation period", we agree a brand new "adaptation phase"?
    OFD - Option for Future Divergence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,527
    HYUFD said:

    The winning Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.
     Raise standards in areas like workers’
    rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
    the environment.
     Ensure we are in full control of our
    fishing waters.'

    The current EU position does not allow for that.

    I might surprise you to learn that the EU is not bound by the winning Tory manifesto.
    The government is, however, bound by the treaty which it signed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,527
    Nice piece of rapid rebuttal, @Cyclefree .
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,525
    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,242
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The winning Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.
     Raise standards in areas like workers’
    rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
    the environment.
     Ensure we are in full control of our
    fishing waters.'

    The current EU position does not allow for that.

    I might surprise you to learn that the EU is not bound by the winning Tory manifesto.
    The government is, however, bound by the treaty which it signed.
    Unlike other countries our Parliament is not bound by the decisions of a previous Parliament. It's a shame that the same people are in power though as it just shows how duplicitous Boris is.
  • Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The winning Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.
     Raise standards in areas like workers’
    rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
    the environment.
     Ensure we are in full control of our
    fishing waters.'

    The current EU position does not allow for that.

    I might surprise you to learn that the EU is not bound by the winning Tory manifesto.
    The government is, however, bound by the treaty which it signed.
    No, the government is answerable to the voters.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,391
    dixiedean said:

    Excellent piece.

    The stifling of Parliament, the emasculation of the judiciary, the attacks on the media and lawyers, the breaking of international treaties are all happening in plain sight. Right wingers who have spent years talking piously about liberty and democracy have absolutely no problem with any of it.

    Yes but. As the number of Covid cases rise, and folk begin to observe the many shortcomings of the PM.
    Hey Presto we're talking about Brexit.
    Job done.
    Heard someone on the radio this morning talking about "when the pandemic was happening". It was a Brexit discussion so that was obviously to the forefront, the Covid misrepresentation wasn't picked up on by anyone...
  • Whilst I agree with the general thrust here and most of the points are well made, I am dubious about the one concerning press freedom.

    Press freedom is basically about being able to investigate and report on matters of public interest (I put that in to differentiate from the dodgy tabloid reporting of private lives) without being harassed or censored. It is not about having an automatic right to whatever information they want on demand.

    The Government refusing to cooperate with journalists and deciding not to invite them to briefings or hand over information they don't have to is not impinging on Press freedom. I don't care what the Council of Europe says about it, the Government's actions may be stupid and self defeating but they are not threatening the rights of the press to report what they want.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 5,995
    Fisking - that's a rave from the grave. As Guido said: the art of getting a boring article and turning it into another boring article that is twice as long.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,002
    FPT: I would like to bring to everyone's attention that an intruder broke into my house and took over my computer and made the Falkland Isles and Gibraltar posts before fleeing the scene.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 6,750

    The Government refusing to cooperate with journalists and deciding not to invite them to briefings or hand over information they don't have to is not impinging on Press freedom.

    Boycotting specific outlets doesn't seem like "freedom" though
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,527

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The winning Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.
     Raise standards in areas like workers’
    rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
    the environment.
     Ensure we are in full control of our
    fishing waters.'

    The current EU position does not allow for that.

    I might surprise you to learn that the EU is not bound by the winning Tory manifesto.
    The government is, however, bound by the treaty which it signed.
    No, the government is answerable to the voters.
    The correct answer is 'yes, and the government is answerable to the voters'.
    Just because they face a general election some time down the road does not give them the right to ignore the law.

    As Cyclefree points out, they are free in law to legislate to set aside treaty provisions - but that would be in this case a direct abrogation of the treaty. You attempts to argue otherwise are the merest sophistry.
  • What's causing the Donald's price to drift on Betfair? Surely it isn't just the Wisconsin poll from flaky old Rasmussen?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 6,755
    edited September 7
    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    The case numbers being found are still below the ONS estimate of the community infection rate - 2000 per day. In England.

    The headline numbers you are looking at are reporting date, not specimen date.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 744
    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    One assumes these increases are driven by travellers returning from mainland Europe before schools restart (lots of bosses also gave permission to WFH from overseas until end of August).

    That graph Peston includes is ridiculous and overtly provocative because it ignores the positivity rate and hence gives no indication of overall infection levels. In March the true number must have been something like 150-200k a day.

    And yet the positivity rate now is still very low, under 1%. So how many cases are we really missing now? And perhaps the Track N Trace is actually doing the job and picking up traveller related clusters?

  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 8,659

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The winning Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.
     Raise standards in areas like workers’
    rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
    the environment.
     Ensure we are in full control of our
    fishing waters.'

    The current EU position does not allow for that.

    I might surprise you to learn that the EU is not bound by the winning Tory manifesto.
    The government is, however, bound by the treaty which it signed.
    No, the government is answerable to the voters.
    Why sign the treaty if you don't want to abide by it?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 6,750

    What's causing the Donald's price to drift on Betfair? Surely it isn't just the Wisconsin poll from flaky old Rasmussen?

    I joined the SPIN EV market earlier on the advice of others.

    Maybe my huge wedge* was enough to move the markets...

    * £5
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 4,363
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    The winning Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.
     Raise standards in areas like workers’
    rights, animal welfare, agriculture and
    the environment.
     Ensure we are in full control of our
    fishing waters.'

    The current EU position does not allow for that.

    I might surprise you to learn that the EU is not bound by the winning Tory manifesto.
    The government is, however, bound by the treaty which it signed.
    Unlike other countries our Parliament is not bound by the decisions of a previous Parliament. It's a shame that the same people are in power though as it just shows how duplicitous Boris is.
    I doubt any country is bound by their prior decisions. That'd be daft, and they'd be living in caves.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 6,750
    eek said:

    Unlike other countries our Parliament is not bound by the decisions of a previous Parliament. It's a shame that the same people are in power though as it just shows how duplicitous Boris is.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 6,755
    edited September 7
    moonshine said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    One assumes these increases are driven by travellers returning from mainland Europe before schools restart (lots of bosses also gave permission to WFH from overseas until end of August).

    That graph Peston includes is ridiculous and overtly provocative because it ignores the positivity rate and hence gives no indication of overall infection levels. In March the true number must have been something like 150-200k a day.

    And yet the positivity rate now is still very low, under 1%. So how many cases are we really missing now? And perhaps the Track N Trace is actually doing the job and picking up traveller related clusters?

    The real answer will come when the case rates rise to the 2000 a day rate the ONS was seeing on the 25 August - in England.

    Either :

    - The ONS was wrong
    - There was truly massive change in the community infection rate after that date
    - Or the case rate rise will stop.

    for reference -

    image
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 7,004
    "Robots to be used in UK care homes to help reduce loneliness

    Machines can hold simple conversations and have been found to improve mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/07/robots-used-uk-care-homes-help-reduce-loneliness
  • Scott_xP said:

    What's causing the Donald's price to drift on Betfair? Surely it isn't just the Wisconsin poll from flaky old Rasmussen?

    I joined the SPIN EV market earlier on the advice of others.

    Maybe my huge wedge* was enough to move the markets...

    * £5
    Oddly, the SPIN EV markets are holding firm against a strong current on Betfair.

    Maybe you've lulled the Sporting traders into a false sense of security. ;)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,280
    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 16,373
    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
  • Scott_xP said:
    Good. Maybe they can knock some heads together win von der Leyen and Barnier and the EU can accept the UK's entirely reasonable proposals: have fish settled like Norway, have state aid settled like Canada.

    Then we can put all this behind us and move on with our lives.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 47,987
    edited September 7

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 35,649
    Scott_xP said:
    Conflict with the judges you say? Hmmm. Can't think why a certain strategist would want that at this stage...
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 5,995
    Scott_xP said:

    eek said:

    Unlike other countries our Parliament is not bound by the decisions of a previous Parliament. It's a shame that the same people are in power though as it just shows how duplicitous Boris is.

    How long before actual government functionaries start talking about the need to abandon 'May's disastrous Withdrawal Agreement'?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 16,373
    edited September 7
    Deleted, I can't read.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,391

    Scott_xP said:

    What's causing the Donald's price to drift on Betfair? Surely it isn't just the Wisconsin poll from flaky old Rasmussen?

    I joined the SPIN EV market earlier on the advice of others.

    Maybe my huge wedge* was enough to move the markets...

    * £5
    Oddly, the SPIN EV markets are holding firm against a strong current on Betfair.

    Maybe you've lulled the Sporting traders into a false sense of security. ;)
    Might be some heavy Trump hitters on the other side. They're a determined bunch and have a repeat of 2016 in their heads.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The Government refusing to cooperate with journalists and deciding not to invite them to briefings or hand over information they don't have to is not impinging on Press freedom.

    Boycotting specific outlets doesn't seem like "freedom" though
    As I say it is stupid and counter productive but it is hardly oppressive. Many countries including most democracies have 'accredited' news companies and without that accreditation you don't get access to Government briefings and information. The Council of Europe have never claimed this is impinging on Press Freedom.

    I am a big fan of Declassified UK but refusing to deal with them is simply not oppressive in the way it is being made out.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,525
    .
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
    Yeah, but this chart has been rising continuously for the past month or so.
  • Scott_xP said:
    So only two to one?

    Given the way people act with such hysteria over No Deal you'd think it'd be a landslide the other way not just two to one.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,049

    Scott_xP said:
    Good. Maybe they can knock some heads together win von der Leyen and Barnier and the EU can accept the UK's entirely reasonable proposals: have fish settled like Norway, have state aid settled like Canada.

    Then we can put all this behind us and move on with our lives.
    I see your problem. You think a Canada-style deal will make our relationship with the EU only as significant to us as Canada's relationship with the EU is to Canada and we won't have to think about it very much anymore. You're ignoring scale and geography.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,391

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
    People do seem particularly able to pick it up on foreign trips even if the prevalence is similiar in their holiday country. I guess interactions are upped compared to staying at home.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,953
    Andy_JS said:

    "Robots to be used in UK care homes to help reduce loneliness

    Machines can hold simple conversations and have been found to improve mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/07/robots-used-uk-care-homes-help-reduce-loneliness

    The PB Tories are going into care homes?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 16,373
    RobD said:

    .

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
    Yeah, but this chart has been rising continuously for the past month or so.
    Raw case number is pointless. Test positive rate is the only worthwhile thing to look at whilst waiting for the ONS figures.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 6,750

    Conflict with the judges you say? Hmmm. Can't think why a certain strategist would want that at this stage...

    I was struck by this



    Who exactly might be facing a reduction, and who in turn might be expecting a more prosperous future?

    I venture they are not a congruent set...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,692
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.

    The current EU position does not allow for that.'

    In that case the Tory manifesto also promised 'we will not extend the implementation
    period beyond December 2020'
    https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative 2019 Manifesto.pdf

    Where did the Tory Party manifesto promise to undermine and violate treaties we've signed, aren't you supposed to be the law and order party?

    Before you answer, if another country decided to violate treaties they had signed with us, I am sure you would expect the UK to react strongly.
    'This will be a new relationship based on free trade and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s treaties or EU law. There will be no political alignment with the EU.'

    If the UK avoids a hard border in the Irish Sea it will still not impose a hard border within Ireland as per the Withdrawal Agreement and as Parliament is sovereign and the Tories have an 80 seat majority can amend the WA accordingly to reflect that
    Indeed it can; whether it would ever be trusted with a trade agreement again is a different matter. Personally I'd rather be proud of my country for supporting the rule of law, not one that skulks about with he credibility of Somalia.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 6,755
    RobD said:

    .

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
    Yeah, but this chart has been rising continuously for the past month or so.

    The ONS numbers have been essentially flat since the beginning of June

    Cases have been rising since the end of June.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,280

    moonshine said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    One assumes these increases are driven by travellers returning from mainland Europe before schools restart (lots of bosses also gave permission to WFH from overseas until end of August).

    That graph Peston includes is ridiculous and overtly provocative because it ignores the positivity rate and hence gives no indication of overall infection levels. In March the true number must have been something like 150-200k a day.

    And yet the positivity rate now is still very low, under 1%. So how many cases are we really missing now? And perhaps the Track N Trace is actually doing the job and picking up traveller related clusters?

    The real answer will come when the case rates rise to the 2000 a day rate the ONS was seeing on the 25 August - in England.

    Either :

    - The ONS was wrong
    - There was truly massive change in the community infection rate after that date
    - Or the case rate rise will stop.

    for reference -

    image
    Hmm, rather runs against Peston and screechy narrative, doesn't it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 47,987
    edited September 7
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
    People do seem particularly able to pick it up on foreign trips even if the prevalence is similiar in their holiday country. I guess interactions are upped compared to staying at home.
    I would guess because most people in their home country spent 5 days a week working (a lot of which is now from own home). Perhaps one night out per week in your home town, and we have some form of track and trace to try and isolate outbreaks.

    Where as on holiday you will be interacting with loads of different people from all over Europe in a big melting pot, sherbets every day, leads to zero social distancing, etc etc etc. And then when people return, we have no real ability to trace where they got it, who they passed it on to.

    And of course lots of people have gone to places like Spain and France where it was already on the upward tick.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,525
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
    Yeah, but this chart has been rising continuously for the past month or so.
    Raw case number is pointless. Test positive rate is the only worthwhile thing to look at whilst waiting for the ONS figures.
    Waiting? I'm too impatient for that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,704
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Tory manifesto of 2019 promised

    'Our priority as Conservatives is to get
    Brexit done – so that we can unleash
    the potential of this great country. This will be
    a new relationship based on free trade
    and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s
    treaties or EU law. There will be no political
    alignment with the EU. We will keep the
    UK out of the single market, out of any
    form of customs union, and end the role
    of the European Court of Justice.
    This future relationship will be one that
    allows us to:
     Take back control of our laws.
     Take back control of our money.
     Control our own trade policy.
     Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration.

    The current EU position does not allow for that.'

    In that case the Tory manifesto also promised 'we will not extend the implementation
    period beyond December 2020'
    https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative 2019 Manifesto.pdf

    Where did the Tory Party manifesto promise to undermine and violate treaties we've signed, aren't you supposed to be the law and order party?

    Before you answer, if another country decided to violate treaties they had signed with us, I am sure you would expect the UK to react strongly.
    'This will be a new relationship based on free trade and friendly cooperation, not on the EU’s treaties or EU law. There will be no political alignment with the EU.'

    If the UK avoids a hard border in the Irish Sea it will still not impose a hard border within Ireland as per the Withdrawal Agreement and as Parliament is sovereign and the Tories have an 80 seat majority can amend the WA accordingly to reflect that
    The Withdrawal Agreement is an international treaty.

    Suppose you sign a mortgage agreement with a bank and, because you are sovereign over your bank account (which you are, until of course Mrs HYUFD arrives), a year later you decide to amend your mortgage agreement to reflect the fact that you don't want to make the monthly payments any more.

    All good?
  • Scott_xP said:
    So only two to one?

    Given the way people act with such hysteria over No Deal you'd think it'd be a landslide the other way not just two to one.
    Who gives a damn what they think now? What matters is what they think next year.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,953
    On Topic:

    Since we cannot trust anything the Govt says - since we have no idea what is posturing and what is actual intention - then all we can do is let it play out until we get to 1st Jan 2021. After that, the reality of Brexit will be there for all to see. Only then can we really judge.

    I expect there to be a loud burst of jingoist rah-rah on New Year's Eve followed by a wake up call over the first few weeks.

    I am not expecting it to be pleasant.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,099
    Ms Cyclefree obviously struggles to fill her day
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,280

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
    Is there any evidence that these policies have led to an increase in poorly people?

    70% of covidians are asymptomatic, most people who have it don't even know they have it unless for some reason they get tested.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,391
    How many daily tests are being done in England right now
  • moonshine said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    One assumes these increases are driven by travellers returning from mainland Europe before schools restart (lots of bosses also gave permission to WFH from overseas until end of August).

    That graph Peston includes is ridiculous and overtly provocative because it ignores the positivity rate and hence gives no indication of overall infection levels. In March the true number must have been something like 150-200k a day.

    And yet the positivity rate now is still very low, under 1%. So how many cases are we really missing now? And perhaps the Track N Trace is actually doing the job and picking up traveller related clusters?

    The real answer will come when the case rates rise to the 2000 a day rate the ONS was seeing on the 25 August - in England.

    Either :

    - The ONS was wrong
    - There was truly massive change in the community infection rate after that date
    - Or the case rate rise will stop.

    for reference -

    image
    Hmm, rather runs against Peston and screechy narrative, doesn't it?
    Prof Peston, screechy narrative, surely not.....expert on everything from chemical engineering to macro-economics.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,704
    Pulpstar said:
    It's a fantastic race meeting. In normal times.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,953
    TOPPING said:

    Suppose you sign a mortgage agreement with a bank and, because you are sovereign over your bank account (which you are, until of course Mrs HYUFD arrives), a year later you decide to amend your mortgage agreement to reflect the fact that you don't want to make the monthly payments any more.

    All good?

    Apparently so, because he will send the Commandos in to give you a taste of cold steel if he does not get his way.........
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 6,750

    As I say it is stupid and counter productive but it is hardly oppressive. Many countries including most democracies have 'accredited' news companies and without that accreditation you don't get access to Government briefings and information. The Council of Europe have never claimed this is impinging on Press Freedom.

    I am a big fan of Declassified UK but refusing to deal with them is simply not oppressive in the way it is being made out.

    I take your point, but that's not what happened.

    It's not that the Government refuse to accredit some fringe outfit, it's that they explicitly ban 'accredited' news organizations from receiving briefings that are made available others.

    Banning the Mirror from BoZo's bus, for example.

    It doesn't stop the Mirror writing a story, but it absolutely stops them asking pertinent questions, which is the point of 'a free press holding people to account'
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 47,987
    edited September 7
    Pulpstar said:

    How many daily tests are being done in England right now

    Depends which pillars you want to include, but I believe its about ~300-350k. The positive percentage has been at or below 1% for many weeks.
  • 25% of LEAVE voters think No Deal is a bad outcome
  • Majority of Brits think No Deal is bad outcome, so no Johnson is not talking on behalf of the country
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 6,755

    RobD said:

    .

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
    Yeah, but this chart has been rising continuously for the past month or so.

    The ONS numbers have been essentially flat since the beginning of June

    Cases have been rising since the end of June.
    Peston, quite early on in the COVID crisis, distinguished himself as a person who was unable to learn about it. When talking with an expert on the subject. He seemed to find people telling him that he is wrong, offensive.

    I am often wrong. In science, that is the whole point. Trying to impress the universe with your arguments is... entertaining. For suitably distant bystanders. I met someone who had dealt with Louis Slotin. The ultimate example of someone who failed to impress reality with his arguments.
  • As soon as Brexit becomes defined, it no longer has majority support, that's the reality - Johnson's coalition cannot hold indefinitely
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 21,362
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
    Yeah, but this chart has been rising continuously for the past month or so.
    Raw case number is pointless. Test positive rate is the only worthwhile thing to look at whilst waiting for the ONS figures.
    Why wait when you can panic, Alistair?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 21,362

    As soon as Brexit becomes defined, it no longer has majority support, that's the reality - Johnson's coalition cannot hold indefinitely

    I'm not sure it matters, the election isn't until 2024.
  • Scott_xP said:
    So only two to one?

    Given the way people act with such hysteria over No Deal you'd think it'd be a landslide the other way not just two to one.
    You were acting yesterday like Brits were behind Johnson and his Brexit plan
  • Scott_xP said:
    So only two to one?

    Given the way people act with such hysteria over No Deal you'd think it'd be a landslide the other way not just two to one.
    Who gives a damn what they think now? What matters is what they think next year.
    Absolutely.

    And if I'm right then by next year the vast majority will be thinking "what was all the fuss about?"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,391
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:
    It's a fantastic race meeting. In normal times.
    Yes, hopefully* with a Biden presidency and vaccine it can get back to normal next year.

    * Knocks wood
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,525
    Pulpstar said:

    How many daily tests are being done in England right now

    At precisely this second? :smiley:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,391
    alterego said:

    Ms Cyclefree obviously struggles to fill her day

    Don't we all.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 16,373
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
    Yeah, but this chart has been rising continuously for the past month or so.
    Raw case number is pointless. Test positive rate is the only worthwhile thing to look at whilst waiting for the ONS figures.
    Why wait when you can panic, Alistair?
    I'm panicing a bit. Test positive numbers in Scotland are shooting up.

    I'm hoping Scotland is going to be included in the next release of the ONS figures as they started doing stuff on the 18th of August.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,242
    edited September 7

    Scott_xP said:
    So only two to one?

    Given the way people act with such hysteria over No Deal you'd think it'd be a landslide the other way not just two to one.
    Who gives a damn what they think now? What matters is what they think next year.
    Absolutely.

    And if I'm right then by next year the vast majority will be thinking "what was all the fuss about?"
    And if I'm right the a significant minority are going to be thinking where has my job gone and regardless of whether they blame Covid or Brexit Boris will be taking the blame.
  • Afternoon all. Talking to you all as the middle window on my new ultrawide monitor, with two other windows either side. There is literally more space on this monitor than I know what to do with! So much better than the monitor plus laptop screen I had before.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,099
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
    People do seem particularly able to pick it up on foreign trips even if the prevalence is similiar in their holiday country. I guess interactions are upped compared to staying at home.
    Like the apocryphal story of the taxi driver taking a young lady home from the airport after her holiday in Spain - he "bring any nice presents back with you love?", she "we shall just 'ave to wait and see shan't we".
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 6,750

    As soon as Brexit becomes defined, it no longer has majority support, that's the reality - Johnson's coalition cannot hold indefinitely

    This point was made earlier.

    All of the wild gyrations by BoZo, each of which is loudly cheered by the same people who were cheering the opposite the day before, is designed to postpone the moment of realisation for one more day...

    Once the wave function collapses and the cheerleaders realise the cat has been dead since before BoZo wrote his 2 articles, his days are numbered
  • eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So only two to one?

    Given the way people act with such hysteria over No Deal you'd think it'd be a landslide the other way not just two to one.
    Who gives a damn what they think now? What matters is what they think next year.
    Absolutely.

    And if I'm right then by next year the vast majority will be thinking "what was all the fuss about?"
    And if I'm right the a significant minority are going to be thinking where has my job gone.
    Then I hope we can agree - let us hope that I am right and you are wrong.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 5,995

    As soon as Brexit becomes defined, it no longer has majority support, that's the reality - Johnson's coalition cannot hold indefinitely

    I think that's right - we're still in the land of magic and mirages with all this. How far Boris can distant himself from the cold, raw reality of Brexit proper will be the defining political question of the coming months and years.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 24,704
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:
    It's a fantastic race meeting. In normal times.
    Yes, hopefully* with a Biden presidency and vaccine it can get back to normal next year.

    * Knocks wood
    Keeneland is also a pretty special place.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 47,987
    edited September 7

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
    Is there any evidence that these policies have led to an increase in poorly people?

    70% of covidians are asymptomatic, most people who have it don't even know they have it unless for some reason they get tested.
    At the moment no. My issue is really it was unnecessary to allow everybody to leave the country in August and by doing so we lose our ability to track and trace. It is repeat of how it started with it being imported from all those on ski holidays in Italy and Austria.

    If we were going to do this, we needed to have a proper testing system upon return. And politically it didn't really help the government as they swapped and changed which countries were "air-bridged" and led to the continued "its confusing" narrative.
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    ONS only reports some time later doesn't it? There are a couple of weeks since then when there has been a profound change in movement and mixing.

    Are they reaching enough younger people? The actual testing suggests a big rise in 17-21 year olds, are they getting a representative sample?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146
    edited September 7
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
    People do seem particularly able to pick it up on foreign trips even if the prevalence is similiar in their holiday country. I guess interactions are upped compared to staying at home.
    Maybe airports are festering plague pits. Maybe Johnny Foreigner has far greater use of aircon than if staying at home.

    Or maybe too many people get pissed on holiday and enter a "I don't give a shit" phase of denial about the risks?

    Covid-19 just LOVES people consuming alcohol.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 673

    What's causing the Donald's price to drift on Betfair? Surely it isn't just the Wisconsin poll from flaky old Rasmussen?

    At a guess, the polling has not been great for him over the past few days and it is a cumulative effect.

    Hell, even if I said the data out of NC didn't look good for him this morning.

    Mind you, good piece on NBC re NC: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/presidential-race-narrows-north-carolina-voters-say-they-want-face-n1239255
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,099
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So only two to one?

    Given the way people act with such hysteria over No Deal you'd think it'd be a landslide the other way not just two to one.
    Who gives a damn what they think now? What matters is what they think next year.
    Absolutely.

    And if I'm right then by next year the vast majority will be thinking "what was all the fuss about?"
    And if I'm right the a significant minority are going to be thinking where has my job gone and regardless of whether they blame Covid or Brexit Boris will be taking the blame.
    Why don't we just wait and see or alternatively put your money where your mouth is?
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 805
    Regarding COVID cases being brought in by holiday makers... seven Greek islands have today been added to the ‘quarantine’ list. Five have international airports from which one might return and so be identified as a necessary stay-at-homer. Two have no airport (Tinos and Serifo) and so one would almost certainly return from Athens. How does that work? Do you have to effectively volunteer for quarantine? Better not wear the Tinos t-shirt when arriving at Gatwick.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 47,987
    edited September 7

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
    People do seem particularly able to pick it up on foreign trips even if the prevalence is similiar in their holiday country. I guess interactions are upped compared to staying at home.
    Maybe airports are festering plague pits. Maybe Johnny Foreigner has far greater use of aircon than if staying at home.

    Or maybe too many people get pissed on holiday and enter a "I don't give a shit" phase of denial about the risks?

    Covid-19 just LOVES people consuming alcohol.
    Has any research been done about risk at airports? Naively they seem a perfect vector for transmission, 1000s of people all together from all over the world, aircon, plus you have to sit there for several hours.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,525
    ukpaul said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    ONS only reports some time later doesn't it? There are a couple of weeks since then when there has been a profound change in movement and mixing.

    Are they reaching enough younger people? The actual testing suggests a big rise in 17-21 year olds, are they getting a representative sample?
    I think a couple of weeks, but it's been virtually flat compared to the constant rise in cases detected via testing. Unsure about the age group, I'd hope they would know how to get a representative sample. They are the ONS for goodness sake. :D
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146

    On Topic:

    Since we cannot trust anything the Govt says - since we have no idea what is posturing and what is actual intention - then all we can do is let it play out until we get to 1st Jan 2021. After that, the reality of Brexit will be there for all to see. Only then can we really judge.

    I expect there to be a loud burst of jingoist rah-rah on New Year's Eve followed by a wake up call over the first few weeks.

    I am not expecting it to be pleasant.

    You never have.

    But you seem rather more rattled than when you were going rah-rah, waving your Irish passport in the faces of those less fortunate....
  • Scott_xP said:
    So only two to one?

    Given the way people act with such hysteria over No Deal you'd think it'd be a landslide the other way not just two to one.
    You were acting yesterday like Brits were behind Johnson and his Brexit plan
    They are. "There is only one poll that matters".

    Johnson won the polls that mattered (the referendum and the election), now he needs to do whatever he thinks is best, subject to Parliamentary approval where appropriate - then be judged or damned in four years time on the results of that.
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited September 7
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    .

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    Isn't the ONS surveys lagged by a week or so?
    Yeah, but this chart has been rising continuously for the past month or so.
    Raw case number is pointless. Test positive rate is the only worthwhile thing to look at whilst waiting for the ONS figures.
    Pillar 2 has been steadily rising since July, as of 24 Aug up to 1.93% up from a low of 1.35%. That contrasts markedly with pillar 1 where it is pretty much the lowest it's been (low numbers tested in pillar 1, though). Since start of September it is likely above 2% in the community already.

    http://covidtracker.uksouth.cloudapp.azure.com/
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,280

    RobD said:

    Cases really picking up now. I wonder why this wasn't seen in the ONS surveys. Maybe it's a case of more intense but localised clusters, which I would guess are more difficult to pick up via random sampling.
    How many of those cases are sick?
    Its seems half (I am obviously being slightly hyperbolic) the premier league footballers have it on return from their holidays and only being picked up because they are all being tested e.g. two Man City players today.

    Letting everybody go on a foreign summer holiday in August seems a particular idiotic move, along with the ever changing (it has just changed again) series of "air-bridge" countries.
    Is there any evidence that these policies have led to an increase in poorly people?

    70% of covidians are asymptomatic, most people who have it don't even know they have it unless for some reason they get tested.
    At the moment no. My issue is really it was unnecessary to allow everybody to leave the country in August and by doing so we lose our ability to track and trace. It is repeat of how it started with it being imported from all those on ski holidays in Italy and Austria.

    If we were going to do this, we needed to have a proper testing system upon return. And politically it didn't really help the government as they swapped and changed which countries were "air-bridged" and led to the continued "its confusing" narrative.
    Oh, I agree, the management of the air-bridges was shambolic, as is pretty much everything with Bozza and Buddies.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,391


    No sound here, but seems like a good answer. One does get a slight twinge of Covid US betting related worries seeing him out in the open like this though !
This discussion has been closed.