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  • LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    We have a navy.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Is it just me or has politics become all too predictable.

    Of course Boris was always going to threaten no deal. Of course Sturgeon will suggest indy ref (which by the way is just brexit with a nationalist slant).

    I have to say though..I have massive doubts about a govt threatening to walk away from negotiation with the record it has in relation to COVID.
  • LadyG said:

    There's a rather basic rule in negotiation. Trust is critical. Yes sometimes things change after signing a deal which can affect it. Yes, sometimes the counter party seems less bothered by this than they should be. Broken trust always damages future negotiations and in a world where dirty laundry gets aired in public the damage done goes way beyond just the deal in question.

    Yet apparently in Brexit world the best way to get a counter party to give you a better deal as a smaller player than the one you have as a big player is to take a big shit on the negotiating table.

    Obviously.

    Recall, we are negotiating with the EU (not the 27 nations). The EU is a body which wrote a Constitution, which was democratically rejected, in referenda, by both the French and the Dutch.

    The legal and political reaction of the EU was not to dump the Constitution, but to slyly repackage it, as merely a Treaty, and thereby ram it through national parliaments, without the need for public votes. It was tantamount to a coup. It was an outrage. Even the architect of the Constitution, Giscard d'Estaing, admitted this:

    "Public opinion will be led - without knowing it - to adopt the policies we would never dare present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden or disguised in some way."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8282241.stm

    The idea that in negotiating with the EU we are negotiating with some saintly body of law abiding paragons is infantile twaddle. The EU, as a whole, is a devious, lying, nasty, power-grabbing piece of shit, just like most national governments, but with less democratic validation.
    Yes. Thats exactly what America, Japan etc will say. Followed by Bravo. And a quick rendition of Rule Britannia.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    Of course we can police them. We do have a navy. Pepper a few with warning shots, pour encourager the other fuckers
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Principles matter

    Let's tear up an International agreement we just signed...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210
    I don't think fish from the ocean is a meaningful share of EU GDP, especially as Canadian and South Korean firms have been buying up EU fishing quotas.
  • Oh dear Simon - and what are you going to do about it?

    I thought EU sequencing was meant to prevent this happening? 🤣
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315

    I wonder how Japan feels about having their trade deal undermined by UK law

    How does this effect a UK - Japan trade deal
    If we're going to undermine EU agreements, why not do the same for an agreement we sign with Japan?
    The UK - Japan trade deal will not be undermined

    I am not commenting on these rumours but I do think no deal is very near
    OK. Lets work on that assumption - that this is a feint to force the perfidious Europeans to finally yield. They won't. They were never ever going to bend on their absolute red lines. They aren't going to bend now that we are threatening to shoot off our own testicles.

    So yes. All trade deals will be undermined if we demonstrate to the world that the word of Her Majesty's Government is worthless.
    It’s not just other governments. Why should anyone trust the word of the British government if they renege on a legally binding agreement barely months after signing it? Why should anyone lend it money if they cannot trust it to stick to the terms of the legally binding bond and the terms of repayment? Why should voters trust it to do what they promise?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Scott_xP said:

    LadyG said:

    We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.

    It really isn't.
    I don’t think that is much of an exaggeration in fairness. It will be a little more red tape.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    You are a mass of contradictions. If the "rona" is as disastrous as you keep telling us, then Macron wont give much thought at all to the French fishing industry and its dispute with the UK, as he will be trying to keep France out of catastrophe.
    There is no contradiction. The Rona is a global catastrophe. But politicians will still want to stay in power, and losing all French fishing in British waters is bad for Macron.
  • I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    Hers was £260 month. (Plenty of gyms available in central London from £25pm, £20pm the rest of London).

    Interesting worldview. Gifted 30% and she paid 70%. However the bit she "paid" was 60% family trust fund and 10% her savings. Surely that is gifted 90% and paid 10% by anyone with self respect.
    Rich parents is the common factor in all these finance porn stories. How I bought my own house by cutting out takeaway pizzas ... oh, and moving back in rent-free with mum, having a £60k job and inheriting quarter of a million from granny.
  • It is pleasurable to see people across party and ideological boundaries coming together to say the Government's proposed action is moronic, who said comradeship was dead
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Boris Johnson is considering plans to dramatically slash quarantine restrictions for passengers arriving in the UK amid warnings of the huge damage they are doing to the economy.

    It comes after MPs and business chiefs told the Prime Minister that the current 14-day self-isolation rules are pushing travel companies and airlines to the brink, crippling trade and tourism, and jeopardising the recovery.

    The Mail on Sunday understands that officials are now looking at the option of testing people for coronavirus eight days after they arrive at UK airports and ports – although Government sources stressed no decision has yet been taken.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    It really is a test of hope right now, with all that is going on in the world...what do you mean I've not read that right?
  • HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
  • It looks as if we are trying to force the EU's hand (or even bully them) to make a deal in our interests. Maybe I'm just thick. But we have chosen to, and have indeed left, the EU. Why on earth would they make a deal with us that is against their interests or compromises the single market? Yes, they would benefit from a deal as well - but not one where the benefits are outweighed by the disadvantages of it. I'd love Leeds to sign Lionel Messi, but I recognise that Barcelona may not think that would be in their interests. Not enough in it for them, really. They have plenty more fish in the sea, so pressure from Leeds woudn't work.

    And by the way, even as a Leeds supporter I think Rashford is great, and some of the cynicism on here about his motives says more about those displaying it than it does about him.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    Of course we can protect our waters.

    That isn't the problem.

    The problem is that average tonneage of Spanish / South Korean / Canadian fishing vessels is massively higher than of British ones. These are big ships that stay out to sea for months at a time, and where the small number of fishermen stay on board. They freeze fish as soon as they catch them, rather than bringing them into port each day.

    The consequence of this is that these massive operators were able to outbid locals (whether in Brittany or Grimsby) and buy up their quotas, because they could fish for less.

    Getting control of our waters doesn't result in our fishermen being able to fish economically, especially in the context of a world where more and more fish are farmed.
  • rcs1000 said:

    I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    I was a member of the Tottenham Court YMCA, and used to swim and use the machines there. It was GREAT. And it was about £55/month. Which seemed like a reasonable price for a Central London gym.

    (By contrast, membership of Equinox in LA is about $250/month.)
    £38pm for my gym and pool so the standard 1.5 multiplier from North to London.

    I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    Hers was £260 month. (Plenty of gyms available in central London from £25pm, £20pm the rest of London).

    Interesting worldview. Gifted 30% and she paid 70%. However the bit she "paid" was 60% family trust fund and 10% her savings. Surely that is gifted 90% and paid 10% by anyone with self respect.
    What do you get for a £260pm gym ?

    She wasn't in something weirdly exclusive such as the Skinny Bitch Collective was she ?
  • Principles matter and the principle is that the fish are our sovereign natural resource, not theirs.

    We *sold* them. If I sell something is it my sovereign resource or the new owner's...?
  • It is pleasurable to see people across party and ideological boundaries coming together to say the Government's proposed action is moronic, who said comradeship was dead

    And no word about it on Sky news despite covering Boris's 15th October cut off date to the EU
  • LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    Of course we can police them. We do have a navy. Pepper a few with warning shots, pour encourager the other fuckers
    How did we get on in cod wars? We lost to Iceland on its own, and you think we will beat the EU?
  • @Gallowgate hope you're still recovering okay after the surgery.
  • It is pleasurable to see people across party and ideological boundaries coming together to say the Government's proposed action is moronic, who said comradeship was dead

    And no word about it on Sky news despite covering Boris's 15th October cut off date to the EU
    It was on BBC News just now
  • LadyG said:

    There's a rather basic rule in negotiation. Trust is critical. Yes sometimes things change after signing a deal which can affect it. Yes, sometimes the counter party seems less bothered by this than they should be. Broken trust always damages future negotiations and in a world where dirty laundry gets aired in public the damage done goes way beyond just the deal in question.

    Yet apparently in Brexit world the best way to get a counter party to give you a better deal as a smaller player than the one you have as a big player is to take a big shit on the negotiating table.

    Obviously.

    Recall, we are negotiating with the EU (not the 27 nations). The EU is a body which wrote a Constitution, which was democratically rejected, in referenda, by both the French and the Dutch.

    The legal and political reaction of the EU was not to dump the Constitution, but to slyly repackage it, as merely a Treaty, and thereby ram it through national parliaments, without the need for public votes. It was tantamount to a coup. It was an outrage. Even the architect of the Constitution, Giscard d'Estaing, admitted this:

    "Public opinion will be led - without knowing it - to adopt the policies we would never dare present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden or disguised in some way."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8282241.stm

    The idea that in negotiating with the EU we are negotiating with some saintly body of law abiding paragons is infantile twaddle. The EU, as a whole, is a devious, lying, nasty, power-grabbing piece of shit, just like most national governments, but with less democratic validation.
    So are you in favour of rejoining the EU in the fullness of time?
  • LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    We have a navy.

    Not much of one anymore. Certainly not big enough to police all our waters.

  • LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    We have a navy.
    Technically yes. Not that it has much capability any more. I know a lot of navy and ex-navy people and they are not impressed with the hollowed out shell which is all that remains of the UK navy. We are down to 20 destroyers / frigates and some of them are always not fit for sea.
  • LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    We have a navy.
    Indeed we do! When the foreign boats turn up to fish using the quotas we sold them, we sink them. That'll show 'em
  • Cyclefree said:


    I wonder how Japan feels about having their trade deal undermined by UK law

    How does this effect a UK - Japan trade deal
    If we're going to undermine EU agreements, why not do the same for an agreement we sign with Japan?
    The UK - Japan trade deal will not be undermined

    I am not commenting on these rumours but I do think no deal is very near
    OK. Lets work on that assumption - that this is a feint to force the perfidious Europeans to finally yield. They won't. They were never ever going to bend on their absolute red lines. They aren't going to bend now that we are threatening to shoot off our own testicles.

    So yes. All trade deals will be undermined if we demonstrate to the world that the word of Her Majesty's Government is worthless.
    It’s not just other governments. Why should anyone trust the word of the British government if they renege on a legally binding agreement barely months after signing it? Why should anyone lend it money if they cannot trust it to stick to the terms of the legally binding bond and the terms of repayment? Why should voters trust it to do what they promise?

    This is all about the Tory voting coalition. The government has clearly decided this is the only way to keep it together. We’ll see if it works.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited September 2020

    LadyG said:

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.

    That is OK. They can fish illegally because we have no navy with which to stop them.
    Dont we have some boats with the wrong staff and some aircraft carriers without planes?
    More or less... The French will be quaking in their boots (or possibly shaking with laughter)
  • IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson is considering plans to dramatically slash quarantine restrictions for passengers arriving in the UK amid warnings of the huge damage they are doing to the economy.

    It comes after MPs and business chiefs told the Prime Minister that the current 14-day self-isolation rules are pushing travel companies and airlines to the brink, crippling trade and tourism, and jeopardising the recovery.

    The Mail on Sunday understands that officials are now looking at the option of testing people for coronavirus eight days after they arrive at UK airports and ports – although Government sources stressed no decision has yet been taken.
    Does the Mail explain how all this testing is to be carried out ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
  • rcs1000 said:

    I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    I was a member of the Tottenham Court YMCA, and used to swim and use the machines there. It was GREAT. And it was about £55/month. Which seemed like a reasonable price for a Central London gym.

    (By contrast, membership of Equinox in LA is about $250/month.)
    £38pm for my gym and pool so the standard 1.5 multiplier from North to London.

    I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    Hers was £260 month. (Plenty of gyms available in central London from £25pm, £20pm the rest of London).

    Interesting worldview. Gifted 30% and she paid 70%. However the bit she "paid" was 60% family trust fund and 10% her savings. Surely that is gifted 90% and paid 10% by anyone with self respect.
    What do you get for a £260pm gym ?

    She wasn't in something weirdly exclusive such as the Skinny Bitch Collective was she ?
    Most likely its an ordinary gym plus personal trainer once a week?

    This is a top tier London gym chain and is charging £165-180pm for a single location or £205pm to access all their venues.

    https://www.thirdspace.london/rates-and-benefits/

    Im sure there will be some more expensive.
  • Principles matter and the principle is that the fish are our sovereign natural resource, not theirs.

    We *sold* them. If I sell something is it my sovereign resource or the new owner's...?
    No we did not.

    Foreign owned UK quotas isn't the issue. The issue is the UK quotas, whether domestically owned or foreign owned, are 25% of British stocks. So we never sold them.

    Besides if the quotas expire then that's it, just as happened with the milk quotas the EU abolished.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    Boo hoo poor babies
  • Scott_xP said:
    The same Professor Scully who as a member of the independent sage group has opposed Sage and HMG from day one
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    I have no idea on these rumours but it has certainly stirred up the remainer's tonight

    And why shouldn't we discuss it? I never voted for Brexit, so I will take every opportunity to call out its seeming failure.

    I hope it is a success - but you can't honestly sit there and think "you know what, let's undermine our agreements" and think it is going well
    I am not commenting on a rumour that has enraged already enraged remainers but many have never accepted Brexit
    Brexit is an obvious crock of s**t.

    Even the PM thinks his own "oven-ready deal" is half baked.

    I expected Brexit to be an omnishambles wrapped up in a clusterf**k, and that looks nailed on now.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    @Gallowgate hope you're still recovering okay after the surgery.

    Getting there, thank you!
  • Scott_xP said:
    Says member of the non-independent sage & somebody who has criticized every single thing the government has done.
  • @Philip_Thompson you have spent the last year telling us how brilliant the international treaty that is the withdrawal agreement was thanks to super Boris and now you say it’s sh*t and we shouldn’t have to abide by it anyway?

    Do you have no shame?

    Jeez it really begs belief.

    I'm not saying its shit. I'm saying UK courts should abide by UK laws and if the EU has an issue with it then they can take it through dispute mechanisms.
  • So Burnham's got nothing constructive to say.

    Here's the key fact and which is known to the 80%.

    Food in this country is cheap.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    We have a navy.

    Not much of one anymore. Certainly not big enough to police all our waters.

    We also have drones, helicopters, and an airforce. I’m sure there are satellites too, lso saying we can’t police is bollocks frankly.

    Not that it will come to that I’m sure. Chill folks.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    I admit that a WTO terms Brexit makes a Yes vote a 50% chance if not more yes. Which is why I would still prefer a FTA with the EU.

    However if Boris did go to WTO terms Brexit then granted indyref2 and Yes won with the UK outside the EEA and CU and without even an EU FTA that means customs posts at the Scottish border, tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa, a surge of nationalism on both sides of the border and if Scotland rejoins the EEA no prospect of free trade in GB for years unless there is a rUK EU agreement.

    English and Scottish relations would be at their lowest since Bannockburn and Flodden, it is a nightmare and division within these islands I would prefer to avoid

    You have, however, frequently stated Boris Johnson will not offer a second independence referendum in Scotland in this Parliament so the issue is moot. Scotland will have to go along with whatever the UK Government get sor doesn't get from the negotiations with the EU.

    The question then becomes IF we go to WTO and the economic impact is sub-optimal, how and in what ways will the voters express their displeasure?

    Clearly, one option is to hand Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP a thumping majority probably by ousting Tory MSPs and marginalising Unionist representation.

    There are only six Scottish Conservative MPs at Westminster so they will be no great loss if ousted in 2024. That won't stop a Conservative majority in the RUK but were that not to be the case, I think we all know what the price of the SNP support for a minority Labour Government would be.
    Yes which is why I think if the SNP win a majority next year at Holyrood they will have to wait for a Starmer premiership in 2024 to be granted an indyref2, though given Starmer would agree to an EEA style FTA with the EU unlike Boris and probably throw in devomax too that would make a Yes vote less likely anyway
    If the Scots elect by a landslide the SNP on a mandate of having a referendum . . .

    . . . and if the response by the Government is basically "f**k off no, you're not having a referendum, we don't care what you vote for" (as you want it to be) . . .

    . . . then by the time Starmer is elected it won't matter what he does with regards to Devomax, EEA or anything else, it would all be too little, too late.
    Well if Starmer grants indyref2 that is a risk he will have to take, if even EEA and devomax won't save the Union then at that point it is dead, Labour will have lost the Union and the Tories will have gained a larger majority in the remainder of seats at Westminster
    Its not a risk he will have to take, it will be what the Scots have voted for. If the Scots vote for a referendum next year, it will be what they have voted for.

    What gives you or any English MP the moral right to deny the Scots the right to make the decision themselves?
    But if turnout next May is in the region of 50% , it will be clear evidence that the issue is not exciting voters in Scotland in the way the commentariat is inclined to assume. Many will have shown their indifference.
    You are in complete denial by the looks of it
    You are in denial of the political reality, Big G.


    No Tory PM is ever going to allow a referendum on the Union that they seem likely to lose. It would mean instant resignation, for a start, and historic infamy- and the end of the Union, causing an immense recession on both sides of the border (much worse in Scotland). It would guarantee economic and political chaos for half a decade or more. Brexit times a hundred.

    All and any kind of politicking will be done to avoid it, Royal Commissions on Devomax etc.

    You may say this will stoke Scots grievance and guarantee indy in the end, but if that is almost inevitable, anyway, HMG has nothing to lose by denying a vote and hoping for a miracle.

    Also: will it stoke Scottish grievance? Madrid basically invaded Catalunya and locked up all the Catalan leaders, to prevent secession, and yet polls show Catalan independence has not gained in popularity. It is as it was.

    Indeed, people forget the Tories under Churchill refused to even grant India independence, it took Attlee's Labour government for that to happen and it was a Liberal PM Lloyd George who agreed the Irish Free State. The Popular Party in Spain who blocked even one Catalan referendum are the Tories sister party. Talks with Catalan nationalists on Catalonia's future have only begun this year now Spain has a Socialist government.

    If there is to be an indyref2 granted it will be under a Labour government not a Tory one
    Not necessarily. If the polls swing conclusvely behind No (unlikely, but not impossible) Boris might be tempted. But in the circs of Sturgeon winning a big majority at Holyrood it is very probable polls will also be pointing to YES, in which case Boris will boot it into the long grass via some "negotiations"
    Agreed but the chances of a big No lead on WTO terms Brexit are about 000.1%.

    Plus granting indyref2 leading to a Yes on WTO terms then Scotland rejoining the EU means customs posts at the Scottish borders and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa
    Your two paragraphs don't make sense.

    If customs posts at Scottish borders and tariffs were the result of voting Yes then the No campaign could use that as an argument to vote no. Which would mean a more than 0.1% chance of No winning again.
    Can HYUFD explain why there would be customs posts and patrol boats on the Tweed but not on the Foyle?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    No. It will betray everyone else.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    I admit that a WTO terms Brexit makes a Yes vote a 50% chance if not more yes. Which is why I would still prefer a FTA with the EU.

    However if Boris did go to WTO terms Brexit then granted indyref2 and Yes won with the UK outside the EEA and CU and without even an EU FTA that means customs posts at the Scottish border, tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa, a surge of nationalism on both sides of the border and if Scotland rejoins the EEA no prospect of free trade in GB for years unless there is a rUK EU agreement.

    English and Scottish relations would be at their lowest since Bannockburn and Flodden, it is a nightmare and division within these islands I would prefer to avoid

    You have, however, frequently stated Boris Johnson will not offer a second independence referendum in Scotland in this Parliament so the issue is moot. Scotland will have to go along with whatever the UK Government get sor doesn't get from the negotiations with the EU.

    The question then becomes IF we go to WTO and the economic impact is sub-optimal, how and in what ways will the voters express their displeasure?

    Clearly, one option is to hand Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP a thumping majority probably by ousting Tory MSPs and marginalising Unionist representation.

    There are only six Scottish Conservative MPs at Westminster so they will be no great loss if ousted in 2024. That won't stop a Conservative majority in the RUK but were that not to be the case, I think we all know what the price of the SNP support for a minority Labour Government would be.
    Yes which is why I think if the SNP win a majority next year at Holyrood they will have to wait for a Starmer premiership in 2024 to be granted an indyref2, though given Starmer would agree to an EEA style FTA with the EU unlike Boris and probably throw in devomax too that would make a Yes vote less likely anyway
    If the Scots elect by a landslide the SNP on a mandate of having a referendum . . .

    . . . and if the response by the Government is basically "f**k off no, you're not having a referendum, we don't care what you vote for" (as you want it to be) . . .

    . . . then by the time Starmer is elected it won't matter what he does with regards to Devomax, EEA or anything else, it would all be too little, too late.
    Well if Starmer grants indyref2 that is a risk he will have to take, if even EEA and devomax won't save the Union then at that point it is dead, Labour will have lost the Union and the Tories will have gained a larger majority in the remainder of seats at Westminster
    Its not a risk he will have to take, it will be what the Scots have voted for. If the Scots vote for a referendum next year, it will be what they have voted for.

    What gives you or any English MP the moral right to deny the Scots the right to make the decision themselves?
    But if turnout next May is in the region of 50% , it will be clear evidence that the issue is not exciting voters in Scotland in the way the commentariat is inclined to assume. Many will have shown their indifference.
    You are in complete denial by the looks of it
    You are in hundred.

    All and any kind of politicking will be done to avoid it, Royal Commissions on Devomax etc.

    You may say this will stoke Scots grievance and guarantee indy in the end, but if that is almost inevitable, anyway, HMG has nothing to lose by denying a vote and hoping for a miracle.

    Also: will it stoke Scottish grievance? Madrid basically invaded Catalunya and locked up all the Catalan leaders, to prevent secession, and yet polls show Catalan independence has not gained in popularity. It is as it was.

    Re your last paragraph you sound like HYUFD

    Any attempt at anything like that will guarantee independence.

    Post next May the SNP will make the governance of Scotland almost impossible for a Boris led government without a referendum and the irony is that by agreeing oneitwill give the union the best chance of winning

    I do expect a drawn out process in agreeing a referendum and I do not expect it before mid summer 2022

    I accept your moral, logical and emotional argument. You are right there will be huge pressure on the Tories to grant a vote, and the pressure will have a persuasive moral case behind it.

    But will any UK PM grant a vote they are likely to lose, a vote which - if the polls stay as they are - will destroy their own career, destroy their 300 year old country, and severely damage the economy of all four nations? No. Simply not going to happen.
    I am very close to Scotland and the Scots having had a near lifetime of association through marriage and actually spending my young years on the border at Berwick and then moving to Edinburgh

    There has always been an anti English undercurrent current which I have experienced personally on occasions, even though I am half Welsh, and covid has been a springboard for Scotland to show how they can be different and they want more

    Unless covid destroys the SNP economic competence over the next six months expect a solid win next May which will make Boris task of winning the Scots round to the union very difficult and saying no the indy 2 until post 2024 is certain to fracture any cooperation between Westminster and Edinburgh and make the divide near impossible to bridge
    I agree with much of this, and I know you have strong Scots connections and you know whereof you speak.

    You are ignoring the realpolitik for a British PM, however. No Tory leader will agree to a vote which will end the UK (and his career, instantly and forever). And if the vote is likely to be lost, does it matter if it is - theoretically - even likelier to be lost in five years if it is denied now?

    Something might just come along and change things. A week is a long time, etc.

    Boris will say No and pray to Kali for forgiveness.
    The thing is that I believe there is a very good case to be made for the union and won

    Anything that antagonises this case needs to be considered very carefully and a blunt 'not in this Parliament' is antagonistic unless of course the polls move towards the union.
    Realistically there is more chance of saving the Union by blocking indyref2 on a WTO terms Brexit then a PM Starmer allowing indyref2 after rejoining the EEA and granting devomax after 2024. If even the latter is not enough then the Union is almost certainly lost anyway but if indyref2 is held while on WTO terms Brexit Yes will almost certainly win as all the polling shows and then there will be tariffs on exports to and from Scotland and Customs Posts from Berwick to Gretna soon after
    Yet the border on the Foyle in Northern Ireland is open.

    Odd.
  • IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson is considering plans to dramatically slash quarantine restrictions for passengers arriving in the UK amid warnings of the huge damage they are doing to the economy.

    It comes after MPs and business chiefs told the Prime Minister that the current 14-day self-isolation rules are pushing travel companies and airlines to the brink, crippling trade and tourism, and jeopardising the recovery.

    The Mail on Sunday understands that officials are now looking at the option of testing people for coronavirus eight days after they arrive at UK airports and ports – although Government sources stressed no decision has yet been taken.
    :lol: Testing people after eight days? That'll be one of those tests that you have to drive hundreds of miles to get as they seem to have run out of them where they are needed or something.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    *sigh* Iceland and Norway have control of their own fishing waters because they retained ownership of 100% of their quotas. We do not have control of our own fishing waters because 55% of England's quota was sold to foreign boats.

    "The Tory Party will not betray British fishermen". Yes they will. Becuase they have promised them that Brexit magically brings back the quotas they have sold. It does not. You have utterly betrayed them and short of sinking the boats sailing into our waters to fish using the quotas we sold them there is nothing the government can do about it. They could *buy* the quotas back of course. But that gives away that it wasn't the EU who took our fish away, we sold them.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    Boo hoo poor babies
    Yes the EU are the poor babies. We're moving on, we don't need an agreement from them to do so.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited September 2020

    @Philip_Thompson you have spent the last year telling us how brilliant the international treaty that is the withdrawal agreement was thanks to super Boris and now you say it’s sh*t and we shouldn’t have to abide by it anyway?

    Do you have no shame?

    Jeez it really begs belief.

    I'm not saying its shit. I'm saying UK courts should abide by UK laws and if the EU has an issue with it then they can take it through dispute mechanisms.
    You’ve spent the last year telling us how brilliant it was and now you’re saying it’s unacceptable!

    This is ridiculous. Do you have no self awareness whatsoever?
  • Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    No. It will betray everyone else.
    They have spent the last 5 years promising too much to too many. Betrayal is inevitable, its coming to the crunch point where they will have to decide who is going to be betrayed.
  • welshowl said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    You miss the point. Fish is insignificant to Britain, but it is somewhat more significant to Europe (tho still not that salient east of Frankfurt), and in fisheries - unusually - Britain has the upper hand

    eg Macron faces a potentially difficult election in 2022. French fishermen (like their farmers, like British coalminers in the 60s and 70s) are known for their persuasive political power. No deal Brexit totally destroys French fishing.

    What does Macron do?

    Under No Deal Brexit, all UK fishing waters return to the UK, and no French boats will be allowed in UK waters. Legally.
    He’ll refuse to give the UK any leeway in any area where the UK needs cooperation from the EU. And French boats will continue to fish where they do now. So what do we then do, given we have no means of actually policing all of our waters?

    We have a navy.

    Not much of one anymore. Certainly not big enough to police all our waters.

    We also have drones, helicopters, and an airforce. I’m sure there are satellites too, lso saying we can’t police is bollocks frankly.

    Not that it will come to that I’m sure. Chill folks.
    Drones, helicopters and planes can’t board ships or send them back. You need boats for that. And people to man them.

  • @Philip_Thompson you have spent the last year telling us how brilliant the international treaty that is the withdrawal agreement was thanks to super Boris and now you say it’s sh*t and we shouldn’t have to abide by it anyway?

    Do you have no shame?

    Jeez it really begs belief.

    I'm not saying its shit. I'm saying UK courts should abide by UK laws and if the EU has an issue with it then they can take it through dispute mechanisms.
    You’ve spent the last year telling us how brilliant it was and now you’re saying it’s unacceptable!

    This is ridiculous. Do you have no self awareness whatsoever?
    He's just spinning the Tory line, quite obvious
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    *sigh* Iceland and Norway have control of their own fishing waters because they retained ownership of 100% of their quotas. We do not have control of our own fishing waters because 55% of England's quota was sold to foreign boats.

    "The Tory Party will not betray British fishermen". Yes they will. Becuase they have promised them that Brexit magically brings back the quotas they have sold. It does not. You have utterly betrayed them and short of sinking the boats sailing into our waters to fish using the quotas we sold them there is nothing the government can do about it. They could *buy* the quotas back of course. But that gives away that it wasn't the EU who took our fish away, we sold them.
    That post needs a "Super-Like" button :+1::+1::+1::+1::+1::+1::+1:
  • Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    No. It will betray everyone else.
    They have spent the last 5 years promising too much to too many. Betrayal is inevitable, its coming to the crunch point where they will have to decide who is going to be betrayed.
    Nissan says 'hi'
  • @Philip_Thompson you have spent the last year telling us how brilliant the international treaty that is the withdrawal agreement was thanks to super Boris and now you say it’s sh*t and we shouldn’t have to abide by it anyway?

    Do you have no shame?

    Jeez it really begs belief.

    I'm not saying its shit. I'm saying UK courts should abide by UK laws and if the EU has an issue with it then they can take it through dispute mechanisms.
    Do these UK laws cover basic things like legal title? We sold the quotas to foreign boats. Is the argument that we blockade the legal owners from using the thing we sold them and let the EU "take it through dispute mechanisms"?

    The EU didn't steal our fish. We *sold* them.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    *sigh* Iceland and Norway have control of their own fishing waters because they retained ownership of 100% of their quotas. We do not have control of our own fishing waters because 55% of England's quota was sold to foreign boats.

    "The Tory Party will not betray British fishermen". Yes they will. Becuase they have promised them that Brexit magically brings back the quotas they have sold. It does not. You have utterly betrayed them and short of sinking the boats sailing into our waters to fish using the quotas we sold them there is nothing the government can do about it. They could *buy* the quotas back of course. But that gives away that it wasn't the EU who took our fish away, we sold them.
    Superb post.
  • IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson is considering plans to dramatically slash quarantine restrictions for passengers arriving in the UK amid warnings of the huge damage they are doing to the economy.

    It comes after MPs and business chiefs told the Prime Minister that the current 14-day self-isolation rules are pushing travel companies and airlines to the brink, crippling trade and tourism, and jeopardising the recovery.

    The Mail on Sunday understands that officials are now looking at the option of testing people for coronavirus eight days after they arrive at UK airports and ports – although Government sources stressed no decision has yet been taken.
    :lol: Testing people after eight days? That'll be one of those tests that you have to drive hundreds of miles to get as they seem to have run out of them where they are needed or something.
    Some countries are doing test on arrival and give a home testing kit to be carried out x days later. If both tests are clear you can skip the quarantine.

    Sounds fine and logistically quite doable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    I admit that a WTO terms Brexit makes a Yes vote a 50% chance if not more yes. Which is why I would still prefer a FTA with the EU.

    However if Boris did go to WTO terms Brexit then granted indyref2 and Yes won with the UK outside the EEA and CU and without even an EU FTA that means customs posts at the Scottish border, tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa, a surge of nationalism on both sides of the border and if Scotland rejoins the EEA no prospect of free trade in GB for years unless there is a rUK EU agreement.

    English and Scottish relations would be at their lowest since Bannockburn and Flodden, it is a nightmare and division within these islands I would prefer to avoid

    You have, however, frequently stated Boris Johnson will not offer a second independence referendum in Scotland in this Parliament so the issue is moot. Scotland will have to go along with whatever the UK Government get sor doesn't get from the negotiations with the EU.

    The question then becomes IF we go to WTO and the economic impact is sub-optimal, how and in what ways will the voters express their displeasure?

    Clearly, one option is to hand Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP a thumping majority probably by ousting Tory MSPs and marginalising Unionist representation.

    There are only six Scottish Conservative MPs at Westminster so they will be no great loss if ousted in 2024. That won't stop a Conservative majority in the RUK but were that not to be the case, I think we all know what the price of the SNP support for a minority Labour Government would be.
    Yes which is why I think if the SNP win a majority next year at Holyrood they will have to wait for a Starmer premiership in 2024 to be granted an indyref2, though given Starmer would agree to an EEA style FTA with the EU unlike Boris and probably throw in devomax too that would make a Yes vote less likely anyway
    If the Scots elect by a landslide the SNP on a mandate of having a referendum . . .

    . . . and if the response by the Government is basically "f**k off no, you're not having a referendum, we don't care what you vote for" (as you want it to be) . . .

    . . . then by the time Starmer is elected it won't matter what he does with regards to Devomax, EEA or anything else, it would all be too little, too late.
    Well if Starmer grants indyref2 that is a risk he will have to take, if even EEA and devomax won't save the Union then at that point it is dead, Labour will have lost the Union and the Tories will have gained a larger majority in the remainder of seats at Westminster
    Its not a risk he will have to take, it will be what the Scots have voted for. If the Scots vote for a referendum next year, it will be what they have voted for.

    What gives you or any English MP the moral right to deny the Scots the right to make the decision themselves?
    But if turnout next May is in the region of 50% , it will be clear evidence that the issue is not exciting voters in Scotland in the way the commentariat is inclined to assume. Many will have shown their indifference.
    You are in complete denial by the looks of it
    You are in hundred.

    All and any kind of politicking will be done to avoid it, Royal Commissions on Devomax etc.

    You may say this will stoke Scots grievance and guarantee indy in the end, but if that is almost inevitable, anyway, HMG has nothing to lose by denying a vote and hoping for a miracle.

    Also: will it stoke Scottish grievance? Madrid basically invaded Catalunya and locked up all the Catalan leaders, to prevent secession, and yet polls show Catalan independence has not gained in popularity. It is as it was.

    Re your last paragraph you sound like HYUFD

    Any attempt at anything like that will guarantee independence.

    Post next May the SNP will make the governance of Scotland almost impossible for a Boris led government without a referendum and the irony is that by agreeing oneitwill give the union the best chance of winning

    I do expect a drawn out process in agreeing a referendum and I do not expect it before mid summer 2022

    I accept your moral, logical and emotional argument. You are right there will be huge pressure on the Tories to grant a vote, and the pressure will have a persuasive moral case behind it.

    But will any UK PM grant a vote they are likely to lose, a vote which - if the polls stay as they are - will destroy their own career, destroy their 300 year old country, and severely damage the economy of all four nations? No. Simply not going to happen.
    I am very close to Scotland and the Scots having had a near lifetime of association through marriage and actually spending my young years on the border at Berwick and then moving to Edinburgh

    There has always been an anti English undercurrent current which I have experienced personally on occasions, even though I am half Welsh, and covid has been a springboard for Scotland to show how they can be different and they want more

    Unless covid destroys the SNP economic competence over the next six months expect a solid win next May which will make Boris task of winning the Scots round to the union very difficult and saying no the indy 2 until post 2024 is certain to fracture any cooperation between Westminster and Edinburgh and make the divide near impossible to bridge
    I agree with much of this, and I know you have strong Scots connections and you know whereof you speak.

    You are ignoring the realpolitik for a British PM, however. No Tory leader will agree to a vote which will end the UK (and his career, instantly and forever). And if the vote is likely to be lost, does it matter if it is - theoretically - even likelier to be lost in five years if it is denied now?

    Something might just come along and change things. A week is a long time, etc.

    Boris will say No and pray to Kali for forgiveness.
    The thing is that I believe there is a very good case to be made for the union and won

    Anything that antagonises this case needs to be considered very carefully and a blunt 'not in this Parliament' is antagonistic unless of course the polls move towards the union.
    Realistically there is more chance of saving the Union by blocking indyref2 on a WTO terms Brexit then a PM Starmer allowing indyref2 after rejoining the EEA and granting devomax after 2024. If even the latter is not enough then the Union is almost certainly lost anyway but if indyref2 is held while on WTO terms Brexit Yes will almost certainly win as all the polling shows and then there will be tariffs on exports to and from Scotland and Customs Posts from Berwick to Gretna soon after
    Yet the border on the Foyle in Northern Ireland is open.

    Odd.
    If we go to WTO terms Brexit there would be tariffs on goods from Ireland to GB and vice versa too
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    Boo hoo poor babies
    Yes the EU are the poor babies. We're moving on, we don't need an agreement from them to do so.
    Fine but stop whinging about how its all the EU’s fault they didn’t give us everything we wanted. You guys sound like petulant children.
  • Britannia waives the rules.

    Post of the week!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Why Trump is n with a chance part 4.

    https://twitter.com/Greg_Palast/status/1301925749495148547?s=19

    Kemp, incidentally, won by 55,000 votes
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    *sigh* Iceland and Norway have control of their own fishing waters because they retained ownership of 100% of their quotas. We do not have control of our own fishing waters because 55% of England's quota was sold to foreign boats.

    "The Tory Party will not betray British fishermen". Yes they will. Becuase they have promised them that Brexit magically brings back the quotas they have sold. It does not. You have utterly betrayed them and short of sinking the boats sailing into our waters to fish using the quotas we sold them there is nothing the government can do about it. They could *buy* the quotas back of course. But that gives away that it wasn't the EU who took our fish away, we sold them.
    The issue isn't that England's quotas were sold, the issue is that the UK's quotas are only a quarter of the UK's fish.

    The 55% of English quota that has been sold represents 13% of the fish. We catch 12%. What about the other 75%?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    You guys sound like petulant children.

    They are petulant children

    Brexit, the ultimate temper tantrum
  • Britannia waives the rules.

    Post of the week!
    To get a response from my hero Yanis, what an honour!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    @Philip_Thompson you have spent the last year telling us how brilliant the international treaty that is the withdrawal agreement was thanks to super Boris and now you say it’s sh*t and we shouldn’t have to abide by it anyway?

    Do you have no shame?

    Jeez it really begs belief.

    I'm not saying its shit. I'm saying UK courts should abide by UK laws and if the EU has an issue with it then they can take it through dispute mechanisms.
    Do these UK laws cover basic things like legal title? We sold the quotas to foreign boats. Is the argument that we blockade the legal owners from using the thing we sold them and let the EU "take it through dispute mechanisms"?

    The EU didn't steal our fish. We *sold* them.
    But surely our quota sizes are the main issue. If we only get 8% of the quota for haddock in the Celtic Sea ( or whatever it is) we only had 8% to sell.

    As of Jan 1, under no desk, a) our quota would increase, b) we have complete control over how a quota is fished ( net sizes, seasons etc).
  • How can Labour cope without the Corbynites?

    https://twitter.com/novaramedia/status/1302586596810608642?s=21
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    Boo hoo poor babies
    Yes the EU are the poor babies. We're moving on, we don't need an agreement from them to do so.
    Fine but stop whinging about how its all the EU’s fault they didn’t give us everything we wanted. You guys sound like petulant children.
    I'm not moaning. I'm saying if the EU won't be reasonable then we should move on and get on with our lives without a deal.
  • IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson is considering plans to dramatically slash quarantine restrictions for passengers arriving in the UK amid warnings of the huge damage they are doing to the economy.

    It comes after MPs and business chiefs told the Prime Minister that the current 14-day self-isolation rules are pushing travel companies and airlines to the brink, crippling trade and tourism, and jeopardising the recovery.

    The Mail on Sunday understands that officials are now looking at the option of testing people for coronavirus eight days after they arrive at UK airports and ports – although Government sources stressed no decision has yet been taken.
    Does the Mail explain how all this testing is to be carried out ?
    I am sure that the govt will set up a dept to decide how it should be implemented and they will report back in early 2021....
  • The leaking of this story is interesting, in connection with Telegraph reporting.

    My inclination is this is tactics - but I am bemused why the UK would conclude this makes us look good in a negotiation
  • IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson is considering plans to dramatically slash quarantine restrictions for passengers arriving in the UK amid warnings of the huge damage they are doing to the economy.

    It comes after MPs and business chiefs told the Prime Minister that the current 14-day self-isolation rules are pushing travel companies and airlines to the brink, crippling trade and tourism, and jeopardising the recovery.

    The Mail on Sunday understands that officials are now looking at the option of testing people for coronavirus eight days after they arrive at UK airports and ports – although Government sources stressed no decision has yet been taken.
    :lol: Testing people after eight days? That'll be one of those tests that you have to drive hundreds of miles to get as they seem to have run out of them where they are needed or something.
    Some countries are doing test on arrival and give a home testing kit to be carried out x days later. If both tests are clear you can skip the quarantine.

    Sounds fine and logistically quite doable.
    Except in the UK, where we promise every other day some extra or new or better tests and then there is another massive cockup and nothing happens or we even go backwards.
  • @Philip_Thompson you have spent the last year telling us how brilliant the international treaty that is the withdrawal agreement was thanks to super Boris and now you say it’s sh*t and we shouldn’t have to abide by it anyway?

    Do you have no shame?

    Jeez it really begs belief.

    I'm not saying its shit. I'm saying UK courts should abide by UK laws and if the EU has an issue with it then they can take it through dispute mechanisms.
    Do these UK laws cover basic things like legal title? We sold the quotas to foreign boats. Is the argument that we blockade the legal owners from using the thing we sold them and let the EU "take it through dispute mechanisms"?

    The EU didn't steal our fish. We *sold* them.
    What part of this are you struggling with?

    We did not sell the quotas.

    The UK quotas, regardless of who owns them, are below what they should be.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited September 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    *sigh* Iceland and Norway have control of their own fishing waters because they retained ownership of 100% of their quotas. We do not have control of our own fishing waters because 55% of England's quota was sold to foreign boats.

    "The Tory Party will not betray British fishermen". Yes they will. Becuase they have promised them that Brexit magically brings back the quotas they have sold. It does not. You have utterly betrayed them and short of sinking the boats sailing into our waters to fish using the quotas we sold them there is nothing the government can do about it. They could *buy* the quotas back of course. But that gives away that it wasn't the EU who took our fish away, we sold them.
    Foreign owned boats which have rights as part of England's fishing quota must still have an economic link to the UK.

    As well as reclaiming full control of the 45% of British fish caught not with foreign quotas the Tory government will pass laws at the end of the transition period that will ensure foreign owned boats using the English quota must land the vast majority of their catch in British ports returning more economic benefit to British fishing ports as a result
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson is considering plans to dramatically slash quarantine restrictions for passengers arriving in the UK amid warnings of the huge damage they are doing to the economy.

    It comes after MPs and business chiefs told the Prime Minister that the current 14-day self-isolation rules are pushing travel companies and airlines to the brink, crippling trade and tourism, and jeopardising the recovery.

    The Mail on Sunday understands that officials are now looking at the option of testing people for coronavirus eight days after they arrive at UK airports and ports – although Government sources stressed no decision has yet been taken.
    :lol: Testing people after eight days? That'll be one of those tests that you have to drive hundreds of miles to get as they seem to have run out of them where they are needed or something.
    It does seem odd that we had a steep uptake in positives on a September weekend, despite many people not being able to book a test.

    Not sure what is going on, but it is rather ominous.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    The leaking of this story is interesting, in connection with Telegraph reporting.

    My inclination is this is tactics - but I am bemused why the UK would conclude this makes us look good in a negotiation

    Give us a deal or we rip up the deal you already gave us...

    It's insane. Brexiteers love it.
  • Evening all.

    I see that the government is collapsing into major panic having belatedly discovered - as everyone with an ounce of sense has been telling them for months - that the EU's negotiating position is stronger than ours, and that they are not going to give us tariff-free, privileged access to the Single Market without the safeguards which for the last three years they have quite clearly said they will insist on.

    I suppose this should be welcomed. At least it suggests that some vague appreciation of reality is beginning to seep into what passes for the collective mind of this government. On the other hand it's hard to welcome what looks uncannily like a toddler's tantrum when he realises the reality is that he isn't going to be given more chocolate.

    It's worse than that. A toddler tantrum can be resolved by placing the toddler somewhere safe until the fires of anger burn out.

    Throughout this process, the Brexit mindset has been more like a cross adolescent. Furious that they never get the respect they deserve, they're always stopped from doing the things they want, who needs stupid school, stupid parents...

    So they decide they want to leave home. Obviously they want to come back for Christmas, Sunday Lunch, holidays... but they want to be respected and treated like adults. But that doesn't seem to be on offer.

    Right now, the UK is in the hall, with their suitcase packed. The suitcase doesn't contain much of use, treasured teddies take up a lot of space. But we're definitely going. Right now. You'll see, and then you'll be sorry.

    In that situation, what's a parent to do? As little as possible, probably, if they have any sense. But boy, it's hard to walk this situation back.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The leaking of this story is interesting, in connection with Telegraph reporting.

    My inclination is this is tactics - but I am bemused why the UK would conclude this makes us look good in a negotiation

    Give us a deal or we rip up the deal you already gave us...

    It's insane. Brexiteers love it.
    I am glad you're commenting again Scott, I missed your comments.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited September 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Looks like the government is giving up on the Union and any trade deals with anyone to embrace a full rogue state strategy. It’s really tough to see how this benefits us.

    It's entertaining, during a time of global gloom?

    I'm serious. BTW. If there is one time you could politically sneak this through, it is now. The world is roiled. This is merely another gust in a planetary storm.

    There are proper benefits to No Deal. It will focus European minds, esp fisheries. It makes it us v them. It polarises, to the advantage of HMG, arguably. It cuts us free in one go, then both sides have to rebuild from first principles.

    And the example of Covid shows that the idea we will all be famined for lack of roquefort is nonsense. We coped with a fecking once-in-a-century plague FFS, and no one starved. Brexit is just more red tape, in comparison.
    You do realise that fish is about as important to the UK economy as Premier League football? Imagine how apoplectic you might be if a future LD govt wanted to rejoin so that it would focus European minds on Premier League football.
    Premier League Football is very valuable to this country. I don't think this point is as strong as you think it is.
    Both are about 0.1% of our economy depending how its measured. They are important but not something you base a whole trade relationship on.
    Most fishing ports however now have Tory MPs and therefore MPs from fishing ports make up far more than 0.1% of the parliamentary Tory Party
    I do admire the complete honesty that this is nothing about what is good for the country, and purely about what is good for the short term electoral instincts of the Tory party. Short term because it will be remembered.
    Even in the EEA Norway and Iceland have control of their own fishing waters, the EU is just being absurdly obstinate on this and the Tory Party will not betray British fishermen
    Boo hoo poor babies
    Yes the EU are the poor babies. We're moving on, we don't need an agreement from them to do so.
    Fine but stop whinging about how its all the EU’s fault they didn’t give us everything we wanted. You guys sound like petulant children.
    I'm not moaning. I'm saying if the EU won't be reasonable then we should move on and get on with our lives without a deal.
    You’re whinging in this very sentence! Oh boo hoo the “unreasonable” EU wont give us exactly what we want 😭😭😭 I guess we’re taking the ball home and don’t want to play anymore. That’ll show ‘em.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Oh dear Simon - and what are you going to do about it?

    I thought EU sequencing was meant to prevent this happening? 🤣
    Simon and Leo are going to have some explaining to do to their electorate.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    I was a member of the Tottenham Court YMCA, and used to swim and use the machines there. It was GREAT. And it was about £55/month. Which seemed like a reasonable price for a Central London gym.

    (By contrast, membership of Equinox in LA is about $250/month.)
    £38pm for my gym and pool so the standard 1.5 multiplier from North to London.

    I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    Hers was £260 month. (Plenty of gyms available in central London from £25pm, £20pm the rest of London).

    Interesting worldview. Gifted 30% and she paid 70%. However the bit she "paid" was 60% family trust fund and 10% her savings. Surely that is gifted 90% and paid 10% by anyone with self respect.
    What do you get for a £260pm gym ?

    She wasn't in something weirdly exclusive such as the Skinny Bitch Collective was she ?
    Most likely its an ordinary gym plus personal trainer once a week?

    This is a top tier London gym chain and is charging £165-180pm for a single location or £205pm to access all their venues.

    https://www.thirdspace.london/rates-and-benefits/

    Im sure there will be some more expensive.
    Third Space is where Prince Harry used to work out. It was extremely expensive and with a very average pool.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Throughout this process, the Brexit mindset has been more like a cross adolescent. Furious that they never get the respect they deserve, they're always stopped from doing the things they want, who needs stupid school, stupid parents...

    So they decide they want to leave home. Obviously they want to come back for Christmas, Sunday Lunch, holidays... but they want to be respected and treated like adults. But that doesn't seem to be on offer.

    Right now, the UK is in the hall, with their suitcase packed. The suitcase doesn't contain much of use, treasured teddies take up a lot of space. But we're definitely going. Right now. You'll see, and then you'll be sorry.

    In that situation, what's a parent to do? As little as possible, probably, if they have any sense. But boy, it's hard to walk this situation back.

    Thankyou for imprinting the image of BoZo and Cummings as Kevin and Perry...
  • Does the Cabinet know about these new plans?

    Have they even discussed the idea of legislation over the WA?

    Or do we live in a country increasing run like a presidential system where the PM's aides make all the decisions?

    Because breaking our negotiated word like this is not done in my name that's for sure and will have repercussions for us as a country long after this PM is done for.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1302711905816121349
  • I want to leave this gym

    Okay you can leave this gym

    I want to still use the gym's facilities

    Okay here's a contract to sign

    I've signed it

    Actually, I hate this agreement and I'm not going to abide by it, I am going to smash up this gym

    New gym: ...
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    I was a member of the Tottenham Court YMCA, and used to swim and use the machines there. It was GREAT. And it was about £55/month. Which seemed like a reasonable price for a Central London gym.

    (By contrast, membership of Equinox in LA is about $250/month.)
    £38pm for my gym and pool so the standard 1.5 multiplier from North to London.

    I'm curious as to how much the gym was.

    Is that something else with vast regional cost differences ?
    Hers was £260 month. (Plenty of gyms available in central London from £25pm, £20pm the rest of London).

    Interesting worldview. Gifted 30% and she paid 70%. However the bit she "paid" was 60% family trust fund and 10% her savings. Surely that is gifted 90% and paid 10% by anyone with self respect.
    What do you get for a £260pm gym ?

    She wasn't in something weirdly exclusive such as the Skinny Bitch Collective was she ?
    Most likely its an ordinary gym plus personal trainer once a week?

    This is a top tier London gym chain and is charging £165-180pm for a single location or £205pm to access all their venues.

    https://www.thirdspace.london/rates-and-benefits/

    Im sure there will be some more expensive.
    Third Space is where Prince Harry used to work out. It was extremely expensive and with a very average pool.
    @rcs1000 I was a big fan of the TCR YMCA back in the 1990s, as you said a great pool and very reasonably priced.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    I'm not sure it's a good move, but all the right people are upset.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Throughout this process, the Brexit mindset has been more like a cross adolescent. Furious that they never get the respect they deserve, they're always stopped from doing the things they want, who needs stupid school, stupid parents...

    So they decide they want to leave home. Obviously they want to come back for Christmas, Sunday Lunch, holidays... but they want to be respected and treated like adults. But that doesn't seem to be on offer.

    Right now, the UK is in the hall, with their suitcase packed. The suitcase doesn't contain much of use, treasured teddies take up a lot of space. But we're definitely going. Right now. You'll see, and then you'll be sorry.

    In that situation, what's a parent to do? As little as possible, probably, if they have any sense. But boy, it's hard to walk this situation back.

    Thankyou for imprinting the image of BoZo and Cummings as Kevin and Perry...
    Kevin was better dressed.
This discussion has been closed.