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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ken Clarke
    Ed Balls
    John Smith
    Roy Jenkins
    Douglas Hurd
    Chris Patten

    And funnily enough Eden at the right time and without his crippling illness.

    He was a broken reed by 1955.

    A younger Eden is a good choice.
    If we go back far enough, Austen Chamberlain would be worth a shout.

    J R Clynes as well. More so than Henderson, I would say.
    No way J R Clynes.
    Why not?
    Let me just wiki him ... :smile:
    Party leader in the first election Labour came Second in;

    First Labour cabinet minister;

    Most senior minister to break ranks with Macdonald in 1931;

    Held so fast to his principles that he should never take money he wasn’t entitled to that he suffered financial hardship and died in poverty.

    I would say that he would have been a good Labour PM.
    Lack of pragmatism?
    Is that an endorsement or a query?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lots of big problems get much better if you build more homes.

    The planning reform really does need to be top of the pile when MPs return next week.

    It'll almost certainly get swept away on a tide of Nimbyism. The Government benches are full of shire counties MPs armed with excuses as to why nasty houses should not be built in their patch, led by a Prime Minister whose entire skeleton appears to be made of jelly.
    I must say I don't really understand the reforms.

    Everywhere is going to be categorised into Growth, Renewal and Protected.

    The former is for big development, the middle one has permission in principle for development and the latter is protected.

    There will be huge fights over what is "Protected". Outside of national parks, green belts and sites of special scientific interest or outstanding natural beauty the first two categories could cover almost the whole of England.
    The intention is to enable a planning free for all outside those limited areas designated as “protected”.

    This despite the huge number of unimplemented permissions and clear evidence that developers sit on both permissions and land to ensure that prices remain high.

    The Tory party will surely fold on the reforms, faced with backbench MPs up in arms and myriad Tory councillors looking at losing their seats.
    Yes, I don't pretend to understand it but that doesn't smell right.

    We'll get some real low-quality uncoordinated crap popping up all over the place with that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Sandpit said:

    Lots of big problems get much better if you build more homes.

    The planning reform really does need to be top of the pile when MPs return next week.

    It'll almost certainly get swept away on a tide of Nimbyism. The Government benches are full of shire counties MPs armed with excuses as to why nasty houses should not be built in their patch, led by a Prime Minister whose entire skeleton appears to be made of jelly.
    I must say I don't really understand the reforms.

    Everywhere is going to be categorised into Growth, Renewal and Protected.

    The former is for big development, the middle one has permission in principle for development and the latter is protected.

    There will be huge fights over what is "Protected". Outside of national parks, green belts and sites of special scientific interest or outstanding natural beauty the first two categories could cover almost the whole of England.
    Arguably a vast improvement on the present situation, where almost 100% of the country is "protected" - by Nimbies.
    Yeah, it isn't though, is it?

    Of course, nearby residents will *always* object to new development but I think the coalition reforms toward planning during the 2010 parliament (giving areas a broad quota and requiring local neighborhood plans with local buy-in) were a good way to do this.

    It just feels too broad brush and simplistic to me, which is usually a sign of someone not having done enough hard thinking and some massive cock ups to come.
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 193
    Noting the lack of females in these best never to make PM lists since 1970 what happened to Shirley Williams in all the lists?
    Why is the Defence Secretary Ben Wallace being left out of all these best Tory to replace Boris conversations?.Unlike most of his cabinet teammates he has hardly put a foot as a minister and he has CV prior to politics of serving in Ulster for the Army and then having a go at setting up a business
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    My own best Prime Minister we never had: Brian Gould.

    A very different form of New Labour.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited August 2020
    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    No it won't.

    Housing Benefit which pays all or part of the rents of 4.6 million of the least wealthy households people costs £22 billion a year, of which believe approx 60%+ is for Social Sector and 40%- is for Private Sector. Roughly.

    At most you could save a small fraction of that. And note that downward pressure has been in place for many years already, such as a 5 year freeze in cash terms since 2015.

    Meanwhile the CGT Relief on main dwellings - which is money for wealthier sections of society - costs more than £25bn a year, and removing that entirely would generate many times more whilst only costing them at most perhaps 15-20% of the profit made on selling their houses.

    I would be interested to hear your plan and why it should be targeted at the housing of poorer people.

    I think it is quite clear where it should be targeted.
    The issue with CGT on principal residences is it makes it hard to move

    Let’s say you buy a flat for £100k with a £90k mortgage. Your future partner has also done the same. After a few years you get married and want to buy a small house for your growing family

    Small houses are £350k in your area. Nothing grand but nice with a bit of garden. Luckily your flats have each gone up to £150k, and you’ve each had a pay rise so you can borrow the extra £50k. Alls good.

    Except that now you have to pay £28k in tax. So you don’t move but cram into too small a flat. And you don’t buy new furniture or repaint the house. And the estate agent goes bust but we don’t care about them

    (Moral: you need rollover relief otherwise you will kill ability for most people to move to better properties)
    The number one issue is the inflated housing market - further inflated by myriad government decisions since 2010 (easy money, direct support for first time buyers, stamp duty holidays, complete openness to foreign criminalsinvestors, doing nothing to stop developers sitting on undeveloped land) - and the principal change is that we need to move toward a more realistic balance between house prices and earnings.

    The first stage is to replace Stamp Duty with an equivalent annual property tax, with provision to delay payment until the property is sold for those on low incomes. Then, progressively, the tax rate is edged up, which should lead to an equivalent slow decline in property prices and a rapid realisation from those sitting on empty prime UK property as ‘investment’ that there are better places to put their money.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    eek said:

    Charles said:



    The issue with CGT on principal residences is it makes it hard to move

    Let’s say you buy a flat for £100k with a £90k mortgage. Your future partner has also done the same. After a few years you get married and want to buy a small house for your growing family

    Small houses are £350k in your area. Nothing grand but nice with a bit of garden. Luckily your flats have each gone up to £150k, and you’ve each had a pay rise so you can borrow the extra £50k. Alls good.

    Except that now you have to pay £28k in tax. So you don’t move but cram into too small a flat. And you don’t buy new furniture or repaint the house. And the estate agent goes bust but we don’t care about them

    (Moral: you need rollover relief otherwise you will kill ability for most people to move to better properties)

    And once you introduce rollover relief (as you need to) the amount of money raised would make it pointless.

    If you need to tax housing you really do need a land tax (and yes I know that has problems) but it's just about the sanest approach you there is to tax wealth in a collectable way.
    Nah just charge 1% pa on the value of the house today. Phase in to today’s value over 15 years for people who bought a long time ago. Stamp duty paid in the last 10 years can be offset against this liability. Increases annually at the RPI rate; can be temporarily discounted if there is a substantial decrease in house prices.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Foxy said:

    My own best Prime Minister we never had: Brian Gould.

    A very different form of New Labour.

    He took his overwhelming defeat in the ’92 leadership election very well, I thought.

    Apart from resigning his seat and going to live in New Zealand.

    (Assuming you mean Bryan Gould.)
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    edited August 2020
    MikeL said:

    Biden lead unchanged at 9% with The Hill/HarrisX:

    Last 5 polls by The Hill/HarrisX:

    Biden +4, +6, +8, +9, +9

    So lead increasing and now stable.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html#polls

    The trouble is that a stable lead nationally could disguise a small decline in the swing States which could be fatal to Biden's chances. We need to see more polls from Wisconsin, Michigan, PA etc before we can tell whether the betting movement towards Trump is misguided.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    No it won't.

    Housing Benefit which pays all or part of the rents of 4.6 million of the least wealthy households people costs £22 billion a year, of which believe approx 60%+ is for Social Sector and 40%- is for Private Sector. Roughly.

    At most you could save a small fraction of that. And note that downward pressure has been in place for many years already, such as a 5 year freeze in cash terms since 2015.

    Meanwhile the CGT Relief on main dwellings - which is money for wealthier sections of society - costs more than £25bn a year, and removing that entirely would generate many times more whilst only costing them at most perhaps 15-20% of the profit made on selling their houses.

    I would be interested to hear your plan and why it should be targeted at the housing of poorer people.

    I think it is quite clear where it should be targeted.
    The issue with CGT on principal residences is it makes it hard to move

    Let’s say you buy a flat for £100k with a £90k mortgage. Your future partner has also done the same. After a few years you get married and want to buy a small house for your growing family

    Small houses are £350k in your area. Nothing grand but nice with a bit of garden. Luckily your flats have each gone up to £150k, and you’ve each had a pay rise so you can borrow the extra £50k. Alls good.

    Except that now you have to pay £28k in tax. So you don’t move but cram into too small a flat. And you don’t buy new furniture or repaint the house. And the estate agent goes bust but we don’t care about them

    (Moral: you need rollover relief otherwise you will kill ability for most people to move to better properties)
    The number one issue is the inflated housing market - further inflated by myriad government decisions since 2010 (easy money, direct support for first time buyers, stamp duty holidays, complete openness to foreign criminalsinvestors, doing nothing to stop developers sitting on undeveloped land) - and the principal change is that we need to move toward a more realistic balance between house prices and earnings.

    The first stage is to replace Stamp Duty with an equivalent annual property tax, with provision to delay payment until the property is sold for those on low incomes. Then, progressively, the tax rate is edged up, which should lead to an equivalent slow decline in property prices and a rapid realisation from those sitting on empty prime UK property as ‘investment’ that there are better places to put their money.
    People will bid up house prices as high as they can afford. Fox Jr is buying a house near identical to the one I bought 28 years ago. Four times the price, but at current interest rates more affordable than my house with 12% mortgage rates.

    Want lower house prices? Then stick up interest rates. Just don't expect any thanks!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited August 2020

    Sandpit said:

    Lots of big problems get much better if you build more homes.

    The planning reform really does need to be top of the pile when MPs return next week.

    It'll almost certainly get swept away on a tide of Nimbyism. The Government benches are full of shire counties MPs armed with excuses as to why nasty houses should not be built in their patch, led by a Prime Minister whose entire skeleton appears to be made of jelly.
    I must say I don't really understand the reforms.

    Everywhere is going to be categorised into Growth, Renewal and Protected.

    The former is for big development, the middle one has permission in principle for development and the latter is protected.

    There will be huge fights over what is "Protected". Outside of national parks, green belts and sites of special scientific interest or outstanding natural beauty the first two categories could cover almost the whole of England.
    Arguably a vast improvement on the present situation, where almost 100% of the country is "protected" - by Nimbies.
    Yeah, it isn't though, is it?

    Of course, nearby residents will *always* object to new development but I think the coalition reforms toward planning during the 2010 parliament (giving areas a broad quota and requiring local neighborhood plans with local buy-in) were a good way to do this.

    It just feels too broad brush and simplistic to me, which is usually a sign of someone not having done enough hard thinking and some massive cock ups to come.
    Taking the broader sweep of history, it is remarkable that the radical planning reforms enacted by the Attlee government in 1948 were seen as a nod to the supposed efficacy of central planning and the public sector’s ability to ‘direct’ development (reflecting the supposed achievements of soviet Russia at the time) - and were opposed by Tories as the first time that landowners faced restrictions on doing whatever they liked with their land.

    Roll forward and many of a conservative persuasion are defending the same reforms on the basis of the rights they give neighbours to object to stuff being done on adjacent land!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    No it won't.

    Housing Benefit which pays all or part of the rents of 4.6 million of the least wealthy households people costs £22 billion a year, of which believe approx 60%+ is for Social Sector and 40%- is for Private Sector. Roughly.

    At most you could save a small fraction of that. And note that downward pressure has been in place for many years already, such as a 5 year freeze in cash terms since 2015.

    Meanwhile the CGT Relief on main dwellings - which is money for wealthier sections of society - costs more than £25bn a year, and removing that entirely would generate many times more whilst only costing them at most perhaps 15-20% of the profit made on selling their houses.

    I would be interested to hear your plan and why it should be targeted at the housing of poorer people.

    I think it is quite clear where it should be targeted.
    The issue with CGT on principal residences is it makes it hard to move

    Let’s say you buy a flat for £100k with a £90k mortgage. Your future partner has also done the same. After a few years you get married and want to buy a small house for your growing family

    Small houses are £350k in your area. Nothing grand but nice with a bit of garden. Luckily your flats have each gone up to £150k, and you’ve each had a pay rise so you can borrow the extra £50k. Alls good.

    Except that now you have to pay £28k in tax. So you don’t move but cram into too small a flat. And you don’t buy new furniture or repaint the house. And the estate agent goes bust but we don’t care about them

    (Moral: you need rollover relief otherwise you will kill ability for most people to move to better properties)
    The number one issue is the inflated housing market - further inflated by myriad government decisions since 2010 (easy money, direct support for first time buyers, stamp duty holidays, complete openness to foreign criminalsinvestors, doing nothing to stop developers sitting on undeveloped land) - and the principal change is that we need to move toward a more realistic balance between house prices and earnings.

    The first stage is to replace Stamp Duty with an equivalent annual property tax, with provision to delay payment until the property is sold for those on low incomes. Then, progressively, the tax rate is edged up, which should lead to an equivalent slow decline in property prices and a rapid realisation from those sitting on empty prime UK property as ‘investment’ that there are better places to put their money.
    People will bid up house prices as high as they can afford. Fox Jr is buying a house near identical to the one I bought 28 years ago. Four times the price, but at current interest rates more affordable than my house with 12% mortgage rates.

    Want lower house prices? Then stick up interest rates. Just don't expect any thanks!
    Better than sticking up interest rates would be tighter regulation of mortgage lending so that Fox Jr can't be so easily outbid by someone who is willing to overstretch.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    Shirley Williams and Barbara Castle could be on such a list of PMs.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I read the pre speech release. Unless there was significant changes it is nothing different than what he's said for the last three months.

    If the press want to present it as some massive turning point then my betting balance is totally happy with that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited August 2020
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    No it won't.

    Housing Benefit which pays all or part of the rents of 4.6 million of the least wealthy households people costs £22 billion a year, of which believe approx 60%+ is for Social Sector and 40%- is for Private Sector. Roughly.

    At most you could save a small fraction of that. And note that downward pressure has been in place for many years already, such as a 5 year freeze in cash terms since 2015.

    Meanwhile the CGT Relief on main dwellings - which is money for wealthier sections of society - costs more than £25bn a year, and removing that entirely would generate many times more whilst only costing them at most perhaps 15-20% of the profit made on selling their houses.

    I would be interested to hear your plan and why it should be targeted at the housing of poorer people.

    I think it is quite clear where it should be targeted.
    The issue with CGT on principal residences is it makes it hard to move

    Let’s say you buy a flat for £100k with a £90k mortgage. Your future partner has also done the same. After a few years you get married and want to buy a small house for your growing family

    Small houses are £350k in your area. Nothing grand but nice with a bit of garden. Luckily your flats have each gone up to £150k, and you’ve each had a pay rise so you can borrow the extra £50k. Alls good.

    Except that now you have to pay £28k in tax. So you don’t move but cram into too small a flat. And you don’t buy new furniture or repaint the house. And the estate agent goes bust but we don’t care about them

    (Moral: you need rollover relief otherwise you will kill ability for most people to move to better properties)
    The number one issue is the inflated housing market - further inflated by myriad government decisions since 2010 (easy money, direct support for first time buyers, stamp duty holidays, complete openness to foreign criminalsinvestors, doing nothing to stop developers sitting on undeveloped land) - and the principal change is that we need to move toward a more realistic balance between house prices and earnings.

    The first stage is to replace Stamp Duty with an equivalent annual property tax, with provision to delay payment until the property is sold for those on low incomes. Then, progressively, the tax rate is edged up, which should lead to an equivalent slow decline in property prices and a rapid realisation from those sitting on empty prime UK property as ‘investment’ that there are better places to put their money.
    People will bid up house prices as high as they can afford. Fox Jr is buying a house near identical to the one I bought 28 years ago. Four times the price, but at current interest rates more affordable than my house with 12% mortgage rates.

    Want lower house prices? Then stick up interest rates. Just don't expect any thanks!
    Simply defeatist.

    It’s going to be a long time before interest rates return to what most of a sane persuasion would in times gone by have regarded as ‘normal’.

    Meanwhile there is plenty that government could do (but won’t) to address the extreme imbalances of the UK housing market.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    No it won't.

    Housing Benefit which pays all or part of the rents of 4.6 million of the least wealthy households people costs £22 billion a year, of which believe approx 60%+ is for Social Sector and 40%- is for Private Sector. Roughly.

    At most you could save a small fraction of that. And note that downward pressure has been in place for many years already, such as a 5 year freeze in cash terms since 2015.

    Meanwhile the CGT Relief on main dwellings - which is money for wealthier sections of society - costs more than £25bn a year, and removing that entirely would generate many times more whilst only costing them at most perhaps 15-20% of the profit made on selling their houses.

    I would be interested to hear your plan and why it should be targeted at the housing of poorer people.

    I think it is quite clear where it should be targeted.
    The issue with CGT on principal residences is it makes it hard to move

    Let’s say you buy a flat for £100k with a £90k mortgage. Your future partner has also done the same. After a few years you get married and want to buy a small house for your growing family

    Small houses are £350k in your area. Nothing grand but nice with a bit of garden. Luckily your flats have each gone up to £150k, and you’ve each had a pay rise so you can borrow the extra £50k. Alls good.

    Except that now you have to pay £28k in tax. So you don’t move but cram into too small a flat. And you don’t buy new furniture or repaint the house. And the estate agent goes bust but we don’t care about them

    (Moral: you need rollover relief otherwise you will kill ability for most people to move to better properties)
    The number one issue is the inflated housing market - further inflated by myriad government decisions since 2010 (easy money, direct support for first time buyers, stamp duty holidays, complete openness to foreign criminalsinvestors, doing nothing to stop developers sitting on undeveloped land) - and the principal change is that we need to move toward a more realistic balance between house prices and earnings.

    The first stage is to replace Stamp Duty with an equivalent annual property tax, with provision to delay payment until the property is sold for those on low incomes. Then, progressively, the tax rate is edged up, which should lead to an equivalent slow decline in property prices and a rapid realisation from those sitting on empty prime UK property as ‘investment’ that there are better places to put their money.
    People will bid up house prices as high as they can afford. Fox Jr is buying a house near identical to the one I bought 28 years ago. Four times the price, but at current interest rates more affordable than my house with 12% mortgage rates.

    Want lower house prices? Then stick up interest rates. Just don't expect any thanks!
    Simply defeatist.

    It’s going to be a long time before interest rates return to what most of a sane persuasion would in times gone by have regarded as ‘normal’.

    Meanwhile there is plenty that government could do (but won’t) to address the extreme imbalances of the UK housing market.
    Interest rates have been almost non-existent my entire adult life. This is now the "normal". Anyone below the age of 30 has never experienced what you would consider "sane" and "normal" interest rates.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    Shirley Williams and Barbara Castle could be on such a list of PMs.
    I'd not argue against either of them.

    I think Maggie was required reading for us all though, so just Williams in the frame.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lots of big problems get much better if you build more homes.

    The planning reform really does need to be top of the pile when MPs return next week.

    It'll almost certainly get swept away on a tide of Nimbyism. The Government benches are full of shire counties MPs armed with excuses as to why nasty houses should not be built in their patch, led by a Prime Minister whose entire skeleton appears to be made of jelly.
    I must say I don't really understand the reforms.

    Everywhere is going to be categorised into Growth, Renewal and Protected.

    The former is for big development, the middle one has permission in principle for development and the latter is protected.

    There will be huge fights over what is "Protected". Outside of national parks, green belts and sites of special scientific interest or outstanding natural beauty the first two categories could cover almost the whole of England.
    Arguably a vast improvement on the present situation, where almost 100% of the country is "protected" - by Nimbies.
    Yeah, it isn't though, is it?

    Of course, nearby residents will *always* object to new development but I think the coalition reforms toward planning during the 2010 parliament (giving areas a broad quota and requiring local neighborhood plans with local buy-in) were a good way to do this.

    It just feels too broad brush and simplistic to me, which is usually a sign of someone not having done enough hard thinking and some massive cock ups to come.
    Taking the broader sweep of history, it is remarkable that the radical planning reforms enacted by the Attlee government in 1948 were seen as a nod to the supposed efficacy of central planning and the public sector’s ability to ‘direct’ development (reflecting the supposed achievements of soviet Russia at the time) - and were opposed by Tories as the first time that landowners faced restrictions on doing whatever they liked with their land.

    Roll forward and many of a conservative persuasion are defending the same reforms on the basis of the rights they give neighbours to object to stuff being done on adjacent land!
    Yes, at the time they were seen as the next best thing to the nationalisation of land.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ken Clarke
    Ed Balls
    John Smith
    Roy Jenkins
    Douglas Hurd
    Chris Patten

    And funnily enough Eden at the right time and without his crippling illness.

    He was a broken reed by 1955.

    A younger Eden is a good choice.
    If we go back far enough, Austen Chamberlain would be worth a shout.

    J R Clynes as well. More so than Henderson, I would say.
    No way J R Clynes.
    Why not?
    Let me just wiki him ... :smile:
    Party leader in the first election Labour came Second in;

    First Labour cabinet minister;

    Most senior minister to break ranks with Macdonald in 1931;

    Held so fast to his principles that he should never take money he wasn’t entitled to that he suffered financial hardship and died in poverty.

    I would say that he would have been a good Labour PM.
    Lack of pragmatism?
    Is that an endorsement or a query?
    You have to be pragmatic to be a good mp. Starving to death ain’t a good look.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    It looks like Biden has been listening to me - good:

    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1300492380001513473?s=19
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
    I've Messaged a newspaper editor about it and he said they would look into it so maybe there will be a question or two at the Scottish press briefing soon.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    No it won't.

    Housing Benefit which pays all or part of the rents of 4.6 million of the least wealthy households people costs £22 billion a year, of which believe approx 60%+ is for Social Sector and 40%- is for Private Sector. Roughly.

    At most you could save a small fraction of that. And note that downward pressure has been in place for many years already, such as a 5 year freeze in cash terms since 2015.

    Meanwhile the CGT Relief on main dwellings - which is money for wealthier sections of society - costs more than £25bn a year, and removing that entirely would generate many times more whilst only costing them at most perhaps 15-20% of the profit made on selling their houses.

    I would be interested to hear your plan and why it should be targeted at the housing of poorer people.

    I think it is quite clear where it should be targeted.
    The issue with CGT on principal residences is it makes it hard to move

    Let’s say you buy a flat for £100k with a £90k mortgage. Your future partner has also done the same. After a few years you get married and want to buy a small house for your growing family

    Small houses are £350k in your area. Nothing grand but nice with a bit of garden. Luckily your flats have each gone up to £150k, and you’ve each had a pay rise so you can borrow the extra £50k. Alls good.

    Except that now you have to pay £28k in tax. So you don’t move but cram into too small a flat. And you don’t buy new furniture or repaint the house. And the estate agent goes bust but we don’t care about them

    (Moral: you need rollover relief otherwise you will kill ability for most people to move to better properties)
    The number one issue is the inflated housing market - further inflated by myriad government decisions since 2010 (easy money, direct support for first time buyers, stamp duty holidays, complete openness to foreign criminalsinvestors, doing nothing to stop developers sitting on undeveloped land) - and the principal change is that we need to move toward a more realistic balance between house prices and earnings.

    The first stage is to replace Stamp Duty with an equivalent annual property tax, with provision to delay payment until the property is sold for those on low incomes. Then, progressively, the tax rate is edged up, which should lead to an equivalent slow decline in property prices and a rapid realisation from those sitting on empty prime UK property as ‘investment’ that there are better places to put their money.
    People will bid up house prices as high as they can afford. Fox Jr is buying a house near identical to the one I bought 28 years ago. Four times the price, but at current interest rates more affordable than my house with 12% mortgage rates.

    Want lower house prices? Then stick up interest rates. Just don't expect any thanks!
    Simply defeatist.

    It’s going to be a long time before interest rates return to what most of a sane persuasion would in times gone by have regarded as ‘normal’.

    Meanwhile there is plenty that government could do (but won’t) to address the extreme imbalances of the UK housing market.
    No, just Market forces. People will usually spend about 40% of income on housing. Low interest rates means higher prices are serviceable, so the market floats in that direction. Normalising interest rates (perhaps going up 0.75% per year for 5 years would be good for a lot of the economy too.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    It looks like Biden has been listening to me - good:

    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1300492380001513473?s=19

    Well you and he need massive wake up calls.

    That video is awful. We could, we might,

    Trump : we will.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
    I've Messaged a newspaper editor about it and he said they would look into it so maybe there will be a question or two at the Scottish press briefing soon.
    My guess would be that Scotland are massively exaggerating their figures to continue the culture of fear.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Why is this not hurting Trump with swing voters?

    https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1300481849085571072?s=19
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    It looks like Biden has been listening to me - good:

    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1300492380001513473?s=19

    It is indistinguishable from his June 2nd speech.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    "Boris Johnson takes part in 'most informative' sexual harassment training session for MPs"
    https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-takes-part-in-most-informative-sexual-harassment-training-session-for-mps-12060511
    "The session began with a film about a male employer who began behaving inappropriately towards a young female employee..."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
    I've Messaged a newspaper editor about it and he said they would look into it so maybe there will be a question or two at the Scottish press briefing soon.
    My guess would be that Scotland are massively exaggerating their figures to continue the culture of fear.
    Why would they be stupid enough to do that , the numbers would come out and they would get real bad publicity.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    edited August 2020

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
    I've Messaged a newspaper editor about it and he said they would look into it so maybe there will be a question or two at the Scottish press briefing soon.
    My guess would be that Scotland are massively exaggerating their figures to continue the culture of fear.
    Surely it is England out of line? Wales, Scotland, France, Spain etc etc have higher admission rates.

    Perhaps England is undertreating?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
    I've Messaged a newspaper editor about it and he said they would look into it so maybe there will be a question or two at the Scottish press briefing soon.
    My guess would be that Scotland are massively exaggerating their figures to continue the culture of fear.
    Why would they be stupid enough to do that , the numbers would come out and they would get real bad publicity.
    What is your explanation then ? The figures make no sense. Look at positive cases, they match with population sizes. Scotland should have less than 30 in hospital. It’s likely this time next week England will have less Covid positive in hospital than Scotland. How is that possible ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Good old Tories

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    As we feel summer slipping away...

    https://vimeo.com/316263399
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    Strange that Scotland without England or vice versa is really unthinkable, and yet there is this difference. Scotland must go the way it chooses.

    I referred though to Scotland vs England. England is very far from being the UK. The Welsh and the Irish like to contest too. Happily that's mostly on the playing field.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,851
    Simon Case the 41 year old new head of the civil service. Bit of a steep promotion don't you think?

    I fear a yes man.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
    I've Messaged a newspaper editor about it and he said they would look into it so maybe there will be a question or two at the Scottish press briefing soon.
    My guess would be that Scotland are massively exaggerating their figures to continue the culture of fear.
    Why would they be stupid enough to do that , the numbers would come out and they would get real bad publicity.
    What is your explanation then ? The figures make no sense. Look at positive cases, they match with population sizes. Scotland should have less than 30 in hospital. It’s likely this time next week England will have less Covid positive in hospital than Scotland. How is that possible ?
    Mystery to me unless England not admitting people unless they are critically ill. Hard to believe Scotland are being over cautious and putting everyone in hospital.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
    I've Messaged a newspaper editor about it and he said they would look into it so maybe there will be a question or two at the Scottish press briefing soon.
    My guess would be that Scotland are massively exaggerating their figures to continue the culture of fear.
    Surely it is England out of line? Wales, Scotland, France, Spain etc etc have higher admission rates.

    Perhaps England is undertreating?
    The Wales figures are silly as they claim to admit twice the number than they have in hospital. Is it really likely that hospitals in England are not treating ill Covid patients ?
  • "Boris Johnson takes part in 'most informative' sexual harassment training session for MPs"
    https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-takes-part-in-most-informative-sexual-harassment-training-session-for-mps-12060511
    "The session began with a film about a male employer who began behaving inappropriately towards a young female employee..."

    You do know all 650 MPs have to take part in the same sessions
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Alistair said:

    It looks like Biden has been listening to me - good:

    https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1300492380001513473?s=19

    It is indistinguishable from his June 2nd speech.
    In politics you have to keep repeating the messages. Most Americans don't even tune into POTUS election until after Labor Day (7th Sept this year).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    malcolmg said:

    Good old Tories

    Just picking one at random, PestFix. Not delivered? Not true: https://www.cityam.com/government-pest-control-firms-108m-ppe-contract-issued-in-error/

    We are proud to say we have already delivered tens of tens of millions
    of medical-grade PPE items to the NHS as part of this contract and are
    well on track to complete the order on schedule.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,851
    As a civil servant it will be interesting to see whether Case can win the respect of his colleagues.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020

    Simon Case the 41 year old new head of the civil service. Bit of a steep promotion don't you think?

    I fear a yes man.

    The alternative was apparently Christopher Wormald, who was one of the more useless and incompetent civil servants at the DfE in the Gove era, in a field notable for the quality of the competition.

    It isn’t a good look when there’s such a choice. It suggests either they want a cipher or there’s no talent left in the CS.

    Or both, of course.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited August 2020
    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Simon Case the 41 year old new head of the civil service. Bit of a steep promotion don't you think?

    I fear a yes man.

    They are putting doormats in every position they can.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Good old Tories

    Just picking one at random, PestFix. Not delivered? Not true: https://www.cityam.com/government-pest-control-firms-108m-ppe-contract-issued-in-error/

    We are proud to say we have already delivered tens of tens of millions
    of medical-grade PPE items to the NHS as part of this contract and are
    well on track to complete the order on schedule.
    Still an incredible list of incompetence
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    According to the latest Government figures England has only 70 more Covid patients in hospital than Scotland. If things keep going the way they are then within a week England will have less.

    On the 28th August 83 Covid positive patients were admitted to hospital in Wales. According to the same figures Wales had 41 Covid positive patients in hospital on the 28th August.

    It's basically inexplicable at this point. Unless Scotland are being beyond cautious about releasing elderly back into care homes I have no explanation for the difference.

    It seems like only you and me are interested in this.
    As England has ten times the population of Scotland you would have thought someone in the news may have mentioned it. As the for Wales admission figures I am amazed that the person publishing these stats is not questioning them.
    I've Messaged a newspaper editor about it and he said they would look into it so maybe there will be a question or two at the Scottish press briefing soon.
    My guess would be that Scotland are massively exaggerating their figures to continue the culture of fear.
    Surely it is England out of line? Wales, Scotland, France, Spain etc etc have higher admission rates.

    Perhaps England is undertreating?
    The Wales figures are silly as they claim to admit twice the number than they have in hospital. Is it really likely that hospitals in England are not treating ill Covid patients ?
    Just saying that it is England out of line, not Scotland.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    malcolmg said:

    Simon Case the 41 year old new head of the civil service. Bit of a steep promotion don't you think?

    I fear a yes man.

    They are putting doormats in every position they can.
    To wipe the mud off themselves when they cock up?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Good old Tories

    Just picking one at random, PestFix. Not delivered? Not true: https://www.cityam.com/government-pest-control-firms-108m-ppe-contract-issued-in-error/

    We are proud to say we have already delivered tens of tens of millions
    of medical-grade PPE items to the NHS as part of this contract and are
    well on track to complete the order on schedule.
    Still an incredible list of incompetence
    These kind of lists shared via facebook are invariably complete bollocks. Given the whole situation it was likely not optimal, but the first one I looked at actually delivered what they were contracted to. I'm betting if I kept going down it'd be the same.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Nigelb said:

    https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1300429513986277377

    Jesus Christ these people are nuts, it was a Twitter poll

    In the last half century ?
    Ken Clarke, by a country mile.
    John Smith and Denis Healey would have been good - as would Chris Patten.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited August 2020
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
  • Spain reporting 23,000 new cases of covid since Friday and with Portugal also over the UK quarantine threshold surely this must be a big concern

    Are we heading to quarantine all travel into the UK

    I am no expert on covid numbers but it does look very worrying
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Capax imperii nisi imperasset, is what I think every time these best x we never had convs come up. There is no way of telling, hence no point in the convs.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one muted by the commission
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Spain reporting 23,000 new cases of covid since Friday and with Portugal also over the UK quarantine threshold surely this must be a big concern

    Are we heading to quarantine all travel into the UK

    I am no expert on covid numbers but it does look very worrying

    We should have done it months ago. Particularly from those places where the disease is endemic.

    But even if we do ‘quarantine’ arrivals, unless there is a sudden surge of intelligence on the part of HMG it won’t be quarantine, it will be a polite request to stay in your house for two weeks unless there’s an emergency, such as you need more chocolate or you fancy a breath of fresh air, or your eyes need testing.
  • Spain reporting 23,000 new cases of covid since Friday and with Portugal also over the UK quarantine threshold surely this must be a big concern

    Are we heading to quarantine all travel into the UK

    I am no expert on covid numbers but it does look very worrying

    We 100% should be quarantining all travel into the UK.

    We need to be trying to get as many restrictions in the UK lifted as possible. Be as normal as possible within the UK. If that means trying to seal off the world as best as we can with a quarantine and then acting normally domestically then so be it. Its better than having people roam abroad, bringing the virus back with them and making us all suffer with lockdowns again.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    edited August 2020
    I see Cummins is continuing his clearout of Oxbridge humanities graduates from running Whitehall...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53977821

    Um...

  • ydoethur said:

    Spain reporting 23,000 new cases of covid since Friday and with Portugal also over the UK quarantine threshold surely this must be a big concern

    Are we heading to quarantine all travel into the UK

    I am no expert on covid numbers but it does look very worrying

    We should have done it months ago. Particularly from those places where the disease is endemic.

    But even if we do ‘quarantine’ arrivals, unless there is a sudden surge of intelligence on the part of HMG it won’t be quarantine, it will be a polite request to stay in your house for two weeks unless there’s an emergency, such as you need more chocolate or you fancy a breath of fresh air, or your eyes need testing.
    Which is still a quarantine. This country isn't an authoritarian dictatorship - the law is a polite request first and foremost and people generally abide by said requests.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    You should direct your question to the European Commission who are seeking EU wide tax harmonisation
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
    And to the insider who has to pay different tax rates depending on the state in which they live or operate, it looks like there is uniform rate?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Spain reporting 23,000 new cases of covid since Friday and with Portugal also over the UK quarantine threshold surely this must be a big concern

    Are we heading to quarantine all travel into the UK

    I am no expert on covid numbers but it does look very worrying

    We should have done it months ago. Particularly from those places where the disease is endemic.

    But even if we do ‘quarantine’ arrivals, unless there is a sudden surge of intelligence on the part of HMG it won’t be quarantine, it will be a polite request to stay in your house for two weeks unless there’s an emergency, such as you need more chocolate or you fancy a breath of fresh air, or your eyes need testing.
    Which is still a quarantine. This country isn't an authoritarian dictatorship - the law is a polite request first and foremost and people generally abide by said requests.
    No, it’s not a quarantine. It’s an advisory.

    Quarantine is where people are kept strictly separate from everyone else until it’s clear they’re not infectious.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
    And to the insider who has to pay different tax rates depending on the state in which they live or operate, it looks like there is uniform rate?
    As I said, there is a set minimum.

    So, yes.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Foxy said:

    My own best Prime Minister we never had: Brian Gould.

    A very different form of New Labour.

    I very much agree. I have always been a great fan of Bryan.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378
    edited August 2020
    stodge said:

    https://www.nationalreview.com/news/we-act-like-a-bunch-of-punks-black-tennessee-lawmaker-shames-rioters-invokes-family-legacy-of-peaceful-protest/

    Some people on twitter (Lionel Barber, and Andrew Neil) are lionising this speech by Democrat John Deberry as to what the democrats should have been saying all along.

    Alas they weren't. And they still aren't.

    Doubtless the modern democrats would call him an uncle Tom. I think he should be their candidate.

    There are those who would counter by arguing where has 60 years of "peaceful" protest got Black Americans? There are still too many examples of Police brutality and actions taken by Police against black men which would never be taken against white men.

    Yes, in many respects black Americans have made huge strides - economically, many have levels of prosperity and freedom unknown to their grandparents and it is so much better than it was but it is still not as good as it could or should be.

    There comes a point when those who advocate a peaceful and dignified response to institutional racism or terror or state oppression have to contend with the unpalatable truth they are not making progress and the siren voices advocating a more violent response get heard.

    It's the same whether it is a protest against Police violence in Wisconsin or electoral fraud in Minsk.
    Bluntly, where would war get them? They are outnumbered 5 to 1 by white Americans. Go to war, and they will lose.

    Where did peaceful protest get them? Quite a long way, if not as far as they should be.
  • Simon Case the 41 year old new head of the civil service. Bit of a steep promotion don't you think?

    I fear a yes man.

    A yes man as opposed to the usual "Yes, Prime Minister" man?

    If the intention is to shake things up then not going for a native Sir Humphrey Permanent Secretary seems the logical course of action.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
    And to the insider who has to pay different tax rates depending on the state in which they live or operate, it looks like there is uniform rate?
    As I said, there is a set minimum.

    So, yes.
    Absurd.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
    And to the insider who has to pay different tax rates depending on the state in which they live or operate, it looks like there is uniform rate?
    As I said, there is a set minimum.

    So, yes.
    Absurd.
    Is that the EU you are referring to ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    It's weird, the folk always going on about the deep, family bond of the UK are often the ones promising that England will fcuk an indy Scotland good and propah.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Scott_xP said:
    Well, yes. Eden after Suez, Chamberlain after Poland and Balfour after Tariff Reform all spring to mind.

    Arguably, May after Grenfell as well.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
    And to the insider who has to pay different tax rates depending on the state in which they live or operate, it looks like there is uniform rate?
    As I said, there is a set minimum.

    So, yes.
    Absurd.
    Is tgt the EU you are referring to ?
    No, it's @ydoethur's illogical insistence that black is white.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    My own best Prime Minister we never had: Brian Gould.

    A very different form of New Labour.

    He took his overwhelming defeat in the ’92 leadership election very well, I thought.

    Apart from resigning his seat and going to live in New Zealand.

    (Assuming you mean Bryan Gould.)
    Apparently he did not get on well with John Smith.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
    And to the insider who has to pay different tax rates depending on the state in which they live or operate, it looks like there is uniform rate?
    As I said, there is a set minimum.

    So, yes.
    Absurd.
    You know, William, what I like about you is the way that you bring detailed evidence in support of your claims. When somebody points out that you have misunderstood something and you end up being in the wrong, you don’t go the Hyufd and Contrarion route of one-word personal abuse to try and support an indefensible position.

    https://youtu.be/_GkB9nIErKI
  • Scott_xP said:
    Or the Telegraph's story was media bullshit. I called it here right away, I said that this was bullshit and that I didn't believe it was going to happen but that if it did I would oppose it. And I was right.

    The media keep having these stories and they keep being nonsense. The Government have been 100% consistent that it isn't its place to tell businesses or employees where they should work within the law and nor should it ever be.

    Just because the likes of Littlejohn want the peasants to go back to work in offices so only he can work from home, doesn't mean the Government could or should go down that path.

    Absolutely unsurprising this isn't happening but I wonder who here who attacked the Government for this stupid story the Telegraph put out despite the fact it was immediately denied by Hancock and was never plausible in the first place?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
    And to the insider who has to pay different tax rates depending on the state in which they live or operate, it looks like there is uniform rate?
    As I said, there is a set minimum.

    So, yes.
    Absurd.
    You know, William, what I like about you is the way that you bring detailed evidence in support of your claims. When somebody points out that you have misunderstood something and you end up being in the wrong, you don’t go the Hyufd and Contrarion route of one-word personal abuse to try and support an indefensible position.
    But I'm right as you admit. Tax rates vary from state to state, ergo there is no uniformity and there is tax competition between states. Whether there's a set minimum is neither here nor there.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    It's weird, the folk always going on about the deep, family bond of the UK are often the ones promising that England will fcuk an indy Scotland good and propah.
    You have to realise that once Scotland leaves the union it becomes a competitor nation and as such will face competition for the same markets

    This has nothing to do with family bonds but is all to do with the reality of independence
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,851

    Simon Case the 41 year old new head of the civil service. Bit of a steep promotion don't you think?

    I fear a yes man.

    A yes man as opposed to the usual "Yes, Prime Minister" man?

    If the intention is to shake things up then not going for a native Sir Humphrey Permanent Secretary seems the logical course of action.
    A tea lady wouldn't be native either.

    I thought the Tories liked the private sector and Cummings was a fan of silicon valley? I'm not saying I would have expected Elon Musk.

    We'll see how they shake things up. I suppose if it's a disaster they should get found out and be punished.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    https://www.nationalreview.com/news/we-act-like-a-bunch-of-punks-black-tennessee-lawmaker-shames-rioters-invokes-family-legacy-of-peaceful-protest/

    Some people on twitter (Lionel Barber, and Andrew Neil) are lionising this speech by Democrat John Deberry as to what the democrats should have been saying all along.

    Alas they weren't. And they still aren't.

    Doubtless the modern democrats would call him an uncle Tom. I think he should be their candidate.

    There are those who would counter by arguing where has 60 years of "peaceful" protest got Black Americans? There are still too many examples of Police brutality and actions taken by Police against black men which would never be taken against white men.

    Yes, in many respects black Americans have made huge strides - economically, many have levels of prosperity and freedom unknown to their grandparents and it is so much better than it was but it is still not as good as it could or should be.

    There comes a point when those who advocate a peaceful and dignified response to institutional racism or terror or state oppression have to contend with the unpalatable truth they are not making progress and the siren voices advocating a more violent response get heard.

    It's the same whether it is a protest against Police violence in Wisconsin or electoral fraud in Minsk.
    Bluntly, where would war get them? They are outnumbered 5 to 1 by white Americans. Go to war, and they will lose.

    Where did peaceful protest get them? Quite a long way, if not as far as they should be.
    There's also the factor of a race war being precisely what white US racists want, its necessity and inevitability is almost an article of religious faith for them.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315
    ydoethur said:

    Simon Case the 41 year old new head of the civil service. Bit of a steep promotion don't you think?

    I fear a yes man.

    The alternative was apparently Christopher Wormald, who was one of the more useless and incompetent civil servants at the DfE in the Gove era, in a field notable for the quality of the competition.

    It isn’t a good look when there’s such a choice. It suggests either they want a cipher or there’s no talent left in the CS.

    Or both, of course.
    Or, as I understand it, a number of possible candidates didn’t apply - because they simply did not want to work with Cummings and Johnson - or were told they wouldn’t get the job if they did eg the Permanent Secretary at the Treasury, which has been one of the best performing departments.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    Scots are already paying higher taxes and the gap will only increase on independence

    There will be a move by business to gain tax advantages and of course Scotland will be facing a uniform EU tax rate which is higher than the UK

    You seem to think independence will be a walk in the park and that is simply for the birds
    What uniform EU tax rate would that be?
    The one they will have to impose as part of fiscal union to save the Euro in the medium term?
    Why is a uniform tax rate necessary for a fiscal union? The US doesn't have one.
    They do, actually, although as taxes are varied at a state and local level (including income tax) it looks to the outsider as though they don’t.

    Put it this way, they have a uniform minimum tax rate.

    I would add though that one reason why Europe keeps struggling to drag its people along with its dogma is that it has a stupid habit of going for as much as it thinks it needs, rather than as much as it can actually command popular support for.
    And to the insider who has to pay different tax rates depending on the state in which they live or operate, it looks like there is uniform rate?
    As I said, there is a set minimum.

    So, yes.
    Absurd.
    You know, William, what I like about you is the way that you bring detailed evidence in support of your claims. When somebody points out that you have misunderstood something and you end up being in the wrong, you don’t go the Hyufd and Contrarion route of one-word personal abuse to try and support an indefensible position.
    But I'm right as you admit. Tax rates vary from state to state, ergo there is no uniformity and there is tax competition between states. Whether there's a set minimum is neither here nor there.
    You are saying there is a set minimum, on top of which the states levy their own taxes, and therefore no uniformity.

    Are you claiming then that if the EU insisted on minimum federation wide tax rates (as it has already tried to do for corporation tax, of course) that would not be tax harmonisation?

    Because if so, I have a bridge for sale.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:


    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.

    Not sure I would agree about Yvette Cooper, her husband might have been a better shout. Also, going back a bit, a lot of people, even non Labour people, had a lot of time for Roy Mason.

    Of that list I would say that Jenkins and Clarke really stand out.
    I've got to say (and this sounds terrible) I was finding it harder to think of credible candidates the closer I got to today and I didn't want to come over as one of those old fogeys who think all the past politicians are great and all the current ones terrible because it's not that straightforward.

    The first six were easy and I think both Osborne and David Milliband would have made fine Prime Ministers.

    Of the current crop, I'm genuinely struggling. Rishi Sunak might be on the list but he needs to be tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    And I hope he is - tested in the fires of unpopularity and defeat.
    There's a good handful that whilst you're not jumping up and down for them they're capable. (Sunak as said) Patel, Hancock, Gove, Raab, Hunt.

    For Labour (I'm not a supporter) I can see only three plausible candidates - Cooper, Nandy and Allin-Khan.

    You have to be joking , the only half decent one in that list is Hunt , the rest are crap, liars , cheats and comic singers. On Labour you are worse , 3 absolute donkeys I would not trust to run a bath
    Good that you like (or at least don't dislike) Hunt. You may be right, but I'd hope you'd agree that my list has some of the better rather than worse.

    Scotland needs a friend or two to make 'escape' work. It would have been different 10 years ago. The most likely and best friends are the English, and that applies always.
    For sure , only madmen would think that England and Scotland would not remain close partners in the event of independence. Would be madness for both nations and not something I would want to see.
    I think that is very naive Malc

    Scotland and RUK would become competitor nations and with a near certain Westminster conservative government both company and personal taxation will be much more competitive than Scotland

    If independence becomes likely time to invest heavily in Berwick to Carlisle as businesses and employees locate across the border into England
    I think you are being blinkered, why is England not cheaper than Ireland for tax and you are using the same brexit fantasy of "we hold all the cards" , for businesses all moving to Berwick or Carlisle. That is naive, bit like the stampede to there predicted when they increased drink prices , and fantasy that when tax went up there would be stampede south. You guys are delusional.
    It's weird, the folk always going on about the deep, family bond of the UK are often the ones promising that England will fcuk an indy Scotland good and propah.
    You have to realise that once Scotland leaves the union it becomes a competitor nation and as such will face competition for the same markets

    This has nothing to do with family bonds but is all to do with the reality of independence
    So Scotland is currently unable to compete for business based on national policies? Sounds like something they should correct.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    Or the Telegraph's story was media bullshit. I called it here right away, I said that this was bullshit and that I didn't believe it was going to happen but that if it did I would oppose it. And I was right.

    The media keep having these stories and they keep being nonsense. The Government have been 100% consistent that it isn't its place to tell businesses or employees where they should work within the law and nor should it ever be.

    Just because the likes of Littlejohn want the peasants to go back to work in offices so only he can work from home, doesn't mean the Government could or should go down that path.

    Absolutely unsurprising this isn't happening but I wonder who here who attacked the Government for this stupid story the Telegraph put out despite the fact it was immediately denied by Hancock and was never plausible in the first place?

    It's the Mail which has been the champion of the "back to your desks" brigade. It has employed people to stand outside Government buildings (never those of private companies) and literally count how many civil servants have arrived for work while praising the relevant Minister to the skies for being "in the office".

    This Saturday it turned on its other favourite target - local Government - complaining how few council workers were at their desks.

    Boris Johnson works at home and it's hardly a long commute for Rishi Sunak from No.11 to the Treasury yet what works for them apparently isn't allowed for the rest of us.

    Once the children are back and the weather closes in WFH will look even more attractive - everyone knows that, even the Government deep down knows that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Simon Case the 41 year old new head of the civil service. Bit of a steep promotion don't you think?

    I fear a yes man.

    The alternative was apparently Christopher Wormald, who was one of the more useless and incompetent civil servants at the DfE in the Gove era, in a field notable for the quality of the competition.

    It isn’t a good look when there’s such a choice. It suggests either they want a cipher or there’s no talent left in the CS.

    Or both, of course.
    Or, as I understand it, a number of possible candidates didn’t apply - because they simply did not want to work with Cummings and Johnson - or were told they wouldn’t get the job if they did eg the Permanent Secretary at the Treasury, which has been one of the best performing departments.
    I wonder if they ever did find the author of the famous ‘truth twisters’ tweet.

    Would be hilarious if it turned out to be Case, but seems a bit unlikely.

    However, I can understand why nobody would want to work with Cummings given he is about to have to explain a rather nasty alleged case of bullying and unlawful dismissal to an employment tribunal.
This discussion has been closed.