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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2020: Latest polling from Biden’s three must win states

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited August 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2020: Latest polling from Biden’s three must win states

We are now just two months away from the US Presidential elections and rather than focus on national polling I thought it would be useful to review every so often how things are going in the key swing states that the Democrats need to win in order to unseat Trump in November.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    First unlike Trump.
  • Options
    The key thing in those figures is the Biden share not the lead.

    In past polls the shares have tended to under-represent both parties candidates - last time Hillary did better than her poll shares predicted but the problem is that Trump did even better than his had predicted than she did.

    If Biden's shares are accurate then he is at or above 50% in most of those. He needs to keep hold of the voters he's got but if he's at or above 50% that is good enough, even if Trump does better at squeezing the "others" again.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    Third, like Trump, if only
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Surely now is the time to stop doing RV polls. You need to start moving towards some kind of turnout filtering.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,340
    As long as Trump loses, the world and the US in particular will be safer places.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,195
    The Wisconsin poll figures are just a repeat of Mich.

    Typo???
  • Options
    FPT

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Portland will soon find out precisely the effects of failing to do any policing for 90+ days.

    Cold. Blooded. Murder.

    If the Portland police actually arrested the Nazi's who came to town every weekend rather than colaborating with them the world would be a better place.
    So they don’t have the right to protest because you disagree with them?
    Do you think the Portland police should have been feeding real time information to the head of the Proud Boys as to the location of antifa protests? Do you think the Portland Police should have been giving the proud boys advice on how one of their members could avoid being arrested?

    This is all documented in official communications.
    No. But they shouldn’t arrest them either just because you disagree with them.
    But you agree the police should arrest people with outstanding warrants rather than facilitating their escape right?

    Of course.

    But that wasn’t what you said.

    Stop evading the point. You’re rather unpleasant instinctive reaction to opponents marching was to call them Nazis and wish they were arrested.

    All the backpedaling in the works won’t change that
    What do you call people who fly the swastika when they march?
    "Some very fine people" according to the "leader of the free world".
    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    FPT

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Portland will soon find out precisely the effects of failing to do any policing for 90+ days.

    Cold. Blooded. Murder.

    If the Portland police actually arrested the Nazi's who came to town every weekend rather than colaborating with them the world would be a better place.
    So they don’t have the right to protest because you disagree with them?
    Do you think the Portland police should have been feeding real time information to the head of the Proud Boys as to the location of antifa protests? Do you think the Portland Police should have been giving the proud boys advice on how one of their members could avoid being arrested?

    This is all documented in official communications.
    No. But they shouldn’t arrest them either just because you disagree with them.
    But you agree the police should arrest people with outstanding warrants rather than facilitating their escape right?

    Of course.

    But that wasn’t what you said.

    Stop evading the point. You’re rather unpleasant instinctive reaction to opponents marching was to call them Nazis and wish they were arrested.

    All the backpedaling in the works won’t change that
    What do you call people who fly the swastika when they march?
    "Some very fine people" according to the "leader of the free world".
    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?
    Boy Scouts?
  • Options
    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    Simon Calder, who has got almost every prediction spectacularly wrong in his role as travel industry cheerleading "journalist", being given half an hour to promote cheap Winter holidays to the gullible on R5L.
    Still blindly insistent everything will be magically sorted in short order.


  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,728

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    Who knows, anything is possible as this year has taught us.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    Or "Blairite" as we call them over here.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,993



    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?

    The bloke on the, literal as well as figurative, far right is straight gopnik. Probably GRU.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Dura_Ace said:



    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?

    The bloke on the, literal as well as figurative, far right is straight gopnik. Probably GRU.
    I will never look at my M&S chinos in the same way again.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    In among all the crap news today, here’s some good news:

    https://twitter.com/TheNationalUAE/status/1300403337272139778
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    FPT

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Portland will soon find out precisely the effects of failing to do any policing for 90+ days.

    Cold. Blooded. Murder.

    If the Portland police actually arrested the Nazi's who came to town every weekend rather than colaborating with them the world would be a better place.
    So they don’t have the right to protest because you disagree with them?
    Do you think the Portland police should have been feeding real time information to the head of the Proud Boys as to the location of antifa protests? Do you think the Portland Police should have been giving the proud boys advice on how one of their members could avoid being arrested?

    This is all documented in official communications.
    No. But they shouldn’t arrest them either just because you disagree with them.
    But you agree the police should arrest people with outstanding warrants rather than facilitating their escape right?

    Of course.

    But that wasn’t what you said.

    Stop evading the point. You’re rather unpleasant instinctive reaction to opponents marching was to call them Nazis and wish they were arrested.

    All the backpedaling in the works won’t change that
    What do you call people who fly the swastika when they march?
    "Some very fine people" according to the "leader of the free world".
    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?
    Charles thu KS is was calling all the right winger protestors Nazis.

    I was not.

    I was referencing the multiple specific incontrovertibly documented instances where the Portland Police have been found to be collaborating with far right groups.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,195

    Dura_Ace said:



    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?

    The bloke on the, literal as well as figurative, far right is straight gopnik. Probably GRU.
    I will never look at my M&S chinos in the same way again.
    Look like a bunch of incels on a rare outing from their computers and back bedrooms to me.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,195
    Alistair said:

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
    No chance of that if Trump wins this autumn. Democracy is over in America. It will be like Hungary. An illiberal, semi-democracy in which Trump family win every election.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    In among all the crap news today, here’s some good news:

    https://twitter.com/TheNationalUAE/status/1300403337272139778

    Something which Middle Eastern peace envoy Tony Blair didn't achieve.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Alistair said:

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
    No chance of that if Trump wins this autumn. Democracy is over in America. It will be like Hungary. An illiberal, semi-democracy in which Trump family win every election.
    Considering its size, America is quite parochial politically, isn;t it? the Kennedys, the Bushes, the Clintons.
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600
    Michigan (16seats), Wisconsin (10) and Pennysylvania (20) are not "must win" states when taken as a group. Biden has quite a few paths to winning if he doesn't win all 3.

    Biden needs 270 electoral college votes. Starting with the 2016 result, if he picks up all three, he has 278.

    What other plausible paths are there?

    PIck up Florida and Biden would need only 1 of those 3 to get across the line. Pick up Florida and Arizona and he would need none of them. Neither scenario is implausible. Biden is polling well in Florida, with 538 having him 5.2% ahead there respectably, only just behind the 5.8% for Wisconsin. His lead in Arizona is 3.8% but there's an unpopular Senate candidate there who may drag the Republican ticket down. Florida and Arizona are very different states demographically to the above three, with significant Latino populations, so there's scope for differential swing.

    It's possible though that Trump could pick up Minnesota (10 seats) in a close contest, where 538 have Biden with a 5.2% lead, while Biden fails to take Arizona (11). Even then Florida and Pennysylvania alone would still be enough for Biden.

    In a really close contest, the split electoral college in Maine and Nebraska might come into play. Biden has the potential to pick up 1 seat in each compared to 2016. Biden could pick up Wisconsin, Michigan and Arizona giving him 269 votes - a tie, with 1 more from either Nebraska or Maine being enough. The same tie on 269 arises if Biden picks up Pennysylvania, Michigan and Arizona but loses Minnesota.

    Biden could even get over the line if he picked up Pennysylvania and Michigan alone, which gets him to 268, in which case he'd need to pick up both the single votes in play in Maine and Nebraska to get to 270. The same scenario occurs if he also picks up Wisconsin too but loses Minnesota.

    In summary - it's complicated.
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600
    Alistair said:

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
    In contrast to 2020.

  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Florida seems like for me the "surprise" state where Biden fails to win it even if he does strongly elsewhere.

    I thought I had a handle on Florida demographics and voting trends but 2018 threw me for a loop.
  • Options

    Alistair said:

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
    No chance of that if Trump wins this autumn. Democracy is over in America. It will be like Hungary. An illiberal, semi-democracy in which Trump family win every election.
    It really wont be.

    Different, probably. Unpleasant, possibly.

    But there are too many checks and balances within the US system.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
    No chance of that if Trump wins this autumn. Democracy is over in America. It will be like Hungary. An illiberal, semi-democracy in which Trump family win every election.
    It really wont be.

    Different, probably. Unpleasant, possibly.

    But there are too many checks and balances within the US system.
    The mythical checks and balances are basically conventions and gentlemen's agreements. The GOP controlled Senate has shown it is completely supine in the face of Trump. They have been nodding through judicial appointees who are totally unqualified.

    Where would the brake on Trumpism come from?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Sandpit said:

    In among all the crap news today, here’s some good news:

    https://twitter.com/TheNationalUAE/status/1300403337272139778

    Something which Middle Eastern peace envoy Tony Blair didn't achieve.
    Ha, very true. This effort appears to have been led by Jared Kushner, of all people.

    Among all the crap that’s been 2020, getting Arabs and Israelis restoring diplomatic relations has to be one of the best news stories of the year. 🇦🇪🇮🇱

    It’s a huge benefit to businesses in both countries, who have had to dance a careful dance when dealing with each other in the past, so as not to upset their governments.

    There’s also negotiations taking place with Oman and Bahrain to open up formal relations with Israel too.
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
    No chance of that if Trump wins this autumn. Democracy is over in America. It will be like Hungary. An illiberal, semi-democracy in which Trump family win every election.
    It really wont be.

    Different, probably. Unpleasant, possibly.

    But there are too many checks and balances within the US system.
    The mythical checks and balances are basically conventions and gentlemen's agreements. The GOP controlled Senate has shown it is completely supine in the face of Trump. They have been nodding through judicial appointees who are totally unqualified.

    Where would the brake on Trumpism come from?
    Votes for or against judges have nothing to do with how qualified they are and everything to do with which side they support.

    That applies to members of both parties.

    And why not - if judges are going to vote on a party basis then it doesn't matter how qualified they are.

    Though it seems that GOP appointed judges have a little more independence of thought than those appointed by Democrat Presidents:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53357590
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
    No chance of that if Trump wins this autumn. Democracy is over in America. It will be like Hungary. An illiberal, semi-democracy in which Trump family win every election.
    It really wont be.

    Different, probably. Unpleasant, possibly.

    But there are too many checks and balances within the US system.
    The mythical checks and balances are basically conventions and gentlemen's agreements. The GOP controlled Senate has shown it is completely supine in the face of Trump. They have been nodding through judicial appointees who are totally unqualified.

    Where would the brake on Trumpism come from?
    The 2nd Amendment? :open_mouth:
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,709

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Here's a question:

    What happens if Trump does win.

    Four years of the same sort of chaos but with what consequence in 2024 ?

    If the pendulum continues its normal swing then a radical leftist Dem win in 2024 would be possible.

    That presumes there would be free and fair elections in 2024
    No chance of that if Trump wins this autumn. Democracy is over in America. It will be like Hungary. An illiberal, semi-democracy in which Trump family win every election.
    It really wont be.

    Different, probably. Unpleasant, possibly.

    But there are too many checks and balances within the US system.
    The mythical checks and balances are basically conventions and gentlemen's agreements. The GOP controlled Senate has shown it is completely supine in the face of Trump. They have been nodding through judicial appointees who are totally unqualified.

    Where would the brake on Trumpism come from?
    The 2nd Amendment? :open_mouth:
    or 25th?
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,709
    Sandpit said:

    In among all the crap news today, here’s some good news:

    https://twitter.com/TheNationalUAE/status/1300403337272139778

    Is that plane landing?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,223
    Scott_xP said:
    Superb. Under other circumstances that feint praise would end your career. But not these circumstances.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,039
    This person thinks only 9k people have died of Covid in the USA, he/she joined twitter in March and already has 27k followers. The really damaging pandemic with no vaccine in sight is conspiracy.

    https://twitter.com/anonpatriotq/status/1300419094030811136?s=20

    @anonpatriotq is a subtle touch.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?

    Lay Trump, back Yes seems like a great Arb opportunity to me?

    I'm guessing whatever Trump whale is trying to make it look like a tight contest has ignored that market.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    FPT

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Portland will soon find out precisely the effects of failing to do any policing for 90+ days.

    Cold. Blooded. Murder.

    If the Portland police actually arrested the Nazi's who came to town every weekend rather than colaborating with them the world would be a better place.
    So they don’t have the right to protest because you disagree with them?
    Do you think the Portland police should have been feeding real time information to the head of the Proud Boys as to the location of antifa protests? Do you think the Portland Police should have been giving the proud boys advice on how one of their members could avoid being arrested?

    This is all documented in official communications.
    No. But they shouldn’t arrest them either just because you disagree with them.
    But you agree the police should arrest people with outstanding warrants rather than facilitating their escape right?

    Of course.

    But that wasn’t what you said.

    Stop evading the point. You’re rather unpleasant instinctive reaction to opponents marching was to call them Nazis and wish they were arrested.

    All the backpedaling in the works won’t change that
    What do you call people who fly the swastika when they march?
    "Some very fine people" according to the "leader of the free world".
    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?
    @Alistair had it right at the end of the last thread. I thought that he was generically referring to the marchers as “Nazis”.

    I’m not sure that “Nazi” in itself is a particularly helpful term for these people in that it forces the mind to view them in a specific way associated with 1930s German. In doing so you may miss relevant data about their beliefs or attitudes. But it’s clear that they are likely to be unpleasant people.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited August 2020

    Sandpit said:

    In among all the crap news today, here’s some good news:

    https://twitter.com/TheNationalUAE/status/1300403337272139778

    Is that plane landing?
    Taking off from Ben Gurion, judging by the runway numbers and the other visible El Al plane. Oh, and the attitude and configuration of the subject aircraft, with low flap and high angle of attack.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Dura_Ace said:



    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?

    The bloke on the, literal as well as figurative, far right is straight gopnik. Probably GRU.
    I have the exact same ensemble.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_xP said:
    That’s the first funny thing I’ve seen from them for a while
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Scott_xP said:
    Fun stuff, though hopefully there are not enough Democrats upset (and there are some who are clearly upset) that Biden is not 'progressive' enough to do any damage.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,039
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    "Good people on both sides"

    image

    I'm curious what term @Charles wants to be used to describe people who march under this flag if not "Nazi"?

    The bloke on the, literal as well as figurative, far right is straight gopnik. Probably GRU.
    I have the exact same ensemble.
    New Balance World Order.
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Scott_xP said:
    By the same logic, I find Starmer acceptable under the circumstances...
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?

    Lay Trump, back Yes seems like a great Arb opportunity to me?

    I'm guessing whatever Trump whale is trying to make it look like a tight contest has ignored that market.
    Yeah, start with the premise that there is no path to Biden winning without also winning the popular vote. So the entirety of this market being different from the candidate odds is being driven by the chance of Trump winning the popular vote.

    Currently the popular vote winner market is @5 for Trump to win. That combined with Trump's chance of being the actual winner does not multiply out to this market as far as I can tell.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,223

    Scott_xP said:
    By the same logic, I find Starmer acceptable under the circumstances...
    I am not SKS's biggest fan. I think he is dull and a bit worthy. But he is intellectually in a completely different class from Joe Biden. This is a pitiful choice but only one of the candidates is a positive menace both to the US and the world.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Fun stuff, though hopefully there are not enough Democrats upset (and there are some who are clearly upset) that Biden is not 'progressive' enough to do any damage.
    Trump pinpointed this dilemma in his tweets today. Not unlike labour's in 2019. Red wall vs inner cities.

    The impossible coalition. And so it proved.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314

    Alistair said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?

    Lay Trump, back Yes seems like a great Arb opportunity to me?

    I'm guessing whatever Trump whale is trying to make it look like a tight contest has ignored that market.
    If Trump wins again he will almost certainly do so having lost the popular vote so if you want to arb him it's a great place to put your cash.

    Only downside is that it might not pay out until next year, or whenever California can be arsed to count its votes.
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1300418309683400707

    By the same logic, I find Starmer acceptable under the circumstances...
    I am not SKS's biggest fan. I think he is dull and a bit worthy. But he is intellectually in a completely different class from Joe Biden. This is a pitiful choice but only one of the candidates is a positive menace both to the US and the world.
    I am not a fan of SKS either, but if it is him or the current Bluekippers... :-1:
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,598
    dixiedean said:

    Simon Calder, who has got almost every prediction spectacularly wrong in his role as travel industry cheerleading "journalist", being given half an hour to promote cheap Winter holidays to the gullible on R5L.
    Still blindly insistent everything will be magically sorted in short order.


    Well if he insists on putting himself in harm's way it boosts my chances in the Covid death pool.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    (Reuters) - High-profile COVID-19 vaccines developed in Russia and China share a potential shortcoming: They are based on a common cold virus that many people have been exposed to, potentially limiting their effectiveness, some experts say.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-vaccines-adenoviru-idUSKBN25R19H
  • Options
    https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1300429513986277377

    Jesus Christ these people are nuts, it was a Twitter poll
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1300429513986277377

    Jesus Christ these people are nuts, it was a Twitter poll

    'Glorious'

    Well, that's my reaction to that being their reaction. So proud, so satisfied.
  • Options
    SKS is objectively smart, nice to have a smart leader somewhere
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2020

    SKS is objectively smart, nice to have a smart leader somewhere

    All the main party leaders in this country are now objectively smart.
  • Options

    SKS is objectively smart, nice to have a smart leader somewhere

    All the main party leaders in this country are now objectively smart.
    Boris Johnson is not smart, lol
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    SKS is objectively smart, nice to have a smart leader somewhere

    All the main party leaders in this country are now objectively smart.
    Boris Johnson is not smart, lol
    He is at the least well educated and politically smart to have succeeded as he has time and time again. How one can judge relative intellects of people we see only in soundbites and short speeches is less clear.
  • Options

    SKS is objectively smart, nice to have a smart leader somewhere

    All the main party leaders in this country are now objectively smart.
    Boris Johnson is not smart, lol
    Oh really?

    On what "objective" criteria do you judge him to be objectively not smart?
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    By the same logic, I find Starmer acceptable under the circumstances...
    I am not SKS's biggest fan. I think he is dull and a bit worthy.
    By the time Brexit, Covid and possibly Scexit as well are all out of the way, I suspect that rather a lot of us could be willing to embrace dull and a bit worthy. An extended period with no further revolutions and as little excitement as possible would be positively welcome.

    It doesn't necessarily follow that I'd be willing to vote Labour next time because that also depends on other factors, and there's still probably a very long way to go until the next election, but I might. Although I live in a deep blue Tory safe seat, so what I think doesn't really count anyway.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,490
    edited August 2020

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.




  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    Alistair said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?

    Lay Trump, back Yes seems like a great Arb opportunity to me?

    I'm guessing whatever Trump whale is trying to make it look like a tight contest has ignored that market.
    I've done that. You can lose both but it's a tiny risk.

    Similar thinking - the Dems to win the WH but lose Florida. Does not quite work at current prices but worth monitoring.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    SKS is objectively smart, nice to have a smart leader somewhere

    All the main party leaders in this country are now objectively smart.
    Boris Johnson is not smart, lol
    In that case, what does it say about your side that you were so comprehensively defeated by an idiot?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    F1: can't decide if it's nuts or not but I'm mildly tempted by the each way on Ricciardo at 26.

    He was 4th but gaining rapidly on the top 3 at Spa, and his tyres were lovely as theirs were ruined.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,964
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
  • Options
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    You seem to be thinking that landlords rather than the tenants who could be made homeless would be the ones that suffer?

    Already HB is capped and not linked to market rates of rent, meaning the tenant already needs to pay the difference.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,527

    https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1300429513986277377

    Jesus Christ these people are nuts, it was a Twitter poll

    In the last half century ?
    Ken Clarke, by a country mile.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,964

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    You seem to be thinking that landlords rather than the tenants who could be made homeless would be the ones that suffer?

    Already HB is capped and not linked to market rates of rent, meaning the tenant already needs to pay the difference.
    So what exactly is the Local Housing Allowance except a mechanism to match housing benefit to local rates?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,868
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,195
    kinabalu said:

    Alistair said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?

    Lay Trump, back Yes seems like a great Arb opportunity to me?

    I'm guessing whatever Trump whale is trying to make it look like a tight contest has ignored that market.
    I've done that. You can lose both but it's a tiny risk.

    Similar thinking - the Dems to win the WH but lose Florida. Does not quite work at current prices but worth monitoring.
    It's Bank holiday so I may being thick, but how is this (POTUS and the popular vote) an arb opportunity if there is a tiny risk of losing?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,868
    I think Carlotta has missed this one

    Hmmm. Just looking at the @ScotTories
    “Scotland first” procurement proposals

    Much talk of making contracts more accessible to local business but not overtly favouring them over firms in rUK
    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1300383554967306240
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,964

    kinabalu said:

    Alistair said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?

    Lay Trump, back Yes seems like a great Arb opportunity to me?

    I'm guessing whatever Trump whale is trying to make it look like a tight contest has ignored that market.
    I've done that. You can lose both but it's a tiny risk.

    Similar thinking - the Dems to win the WH but lose Florida. Does not quite work at current prices but worth monitoring.
    It's Bank holiday so I may being thick, but how is this (POTUS and the popular vote) an arb opportunity if there is a tiny risk of losing?
    The Democrats stack up millions upon millions of wasted votes in California and New York. Which means the chances of a Republican candidate winning the White House while losing the national vote is very high.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    malcolmg said:
    Why, precisely, are you against chlorinated chicken? ( I presume chlorine washed is what we're talking about)

    Are you against salt? Swimming pools? The periodic table?
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1300429513986277377

    Jesus Christ these people are nuts, it was a Twitter poll

    In the last half century ?
    Ken Clarke, by a country mile.
    Agree 1 million per cent.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Scott_xP said:
    Biden could do a lot worse than adopt that as his unofficial campaign ad.

    ‘Yes, I’m a bit wet and too old, but I’m not going to blow up the world testing an invalid meteorological hypothesis. That should be good enough for you right now.’
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,964
    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:
    Why, precisely, are you against chlorinated chicken? ( I presume chlorine washed is what we're talking about)

    Are you against salt? Swimming pools? The periodic table?
    I suspect it's more the production standards that chlorinated chicken enables.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    Alistair said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?

    Lay Trump, back Yes seems like a great Arb opportunity to me?

    I'm guessing whatever Trump whale is trying to make it look like a tight contest has ignored that market.
    I've done that. You can lose both but it's a tiny risk.

    Similar thinking - the Dems to win the WH but lose Florida. Does not quite work at current prices but worth monitoring.
    It's Bank holiday so I may being thick, but how is this (POTUS and the popular vote) an arb opportunity if there is a tiny risk of losing?
    The Democrats stack up millions upon millions of wasted votes in California and New York. Which means the chances of a Republican candidate winning the White House while losing the national vote is very high.
    I think it is an Arb once you have covered a bunch of possibilities between nominee, pop vote and will winner lose pop vote - I'm just too dumb to work out the Matrix.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Sagand said:
    Wasn't this big last time around?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,223
    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:
    Why, precisely, are you against chlorinated chicken? ( I presume chlorine washed is what we're talking about)

    Are you against salt? Swimming pools? The periodic table?
    Na, its not CLear is it?
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    eek said:

    Omnium said:

    malcolmg said:
    Why, precisely, are you against chlorinated chicken? ( I presume chlorine washed is what we're talking about)

    Are you against salt? Swimming pools? The periodic table?
    I suspect it's more the production standards that chlorinated chicken enables.
    Which production standard are you concerned about?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,223
    malcolmg said:

    I think Carlotta has missed this one

    Hmmm. Just looking at the @ScotTories
    “Scotland first” procurement proposals

    Much talk of making contracts more accessible to local business but not overtly favouring them over firms in rUK
    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1300383554967306240

    We cannot give preference to the Scottish bid but we can assist the Scottish bids by ensuring that they are ticking all of the relevant boxes to be considered.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,490
    edited August 2020
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    No it won't.

    Housing Benefit which pays all or part of the rents of 4.6 million of the least wealthy households people costs £22 billion a year, of which believe approx 60%+ is for Social Sector and 40%- is for Private Sector. Roughly.

    At most you could save a small fraction of that. And note that downward pressure has been in place for many years already, such as a 5 year freeze in cash terms since 2015.

    Meanwhile the CGT Relief on main dwellings - which is money for wealthier sections of society - costs more than £25bn a year, and removing that entirely would generate many times more whilst only costing them at most perhaps 15-20% of the profit made on selling their houses.

    I would be interested to hear your plan and why it should be targeted at the housing of poorer people.

    I think it is quite clear where it should be targeted.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    kinabalu said:

    Alistair said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Betfair Exachnge " Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?" is a massive mis price based on the candidates prices?

    Have I fucked up the calculations?

    Lay Trump, back Yes seems like a great Arb opportunity to me?

    I'm guessing whatever Trump whale is trying to make it look like a tight contest has ignored that market.
    I've done that. You can lose both but it's a tiny risk.

    Similar thinking - the Dems to win the WH but lose Florida. Does not quite work at current prices but worth monitoring.
    It's Bank holiday so I may being thick, but how is this (POTUS and the popular vote) an arb opportunity if there is a tiny risk of losing?
    No it's not strictly speaking an arb. Quite right.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    F1: can't decide if it's nuts or not but I'm mildly tempted by the each way on Ricciardo at 26.

    He was 4th but gaining rapidly on the top 3 at Spa, and his tyres were lovely as theirs were ruined.

    Definitely. Renault were 4th and 5th there last year, and one of the cars in front was cheating. I’d look to backing him for a podium, rather than first or second though.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Regarding the end of summer and the end of financial support. Unfortunately the pox hasn't gone away, is already surging back and that's before we send the school super spreaders to work. The government needs to try and at least throttle the vast sums being spent supporting the economy, but its seems clear enough that the result in doing so will be a surge in unemployment.

    For a right wing free marketeer that shouldn't provide a concern and didn't in the 80s when economic reform and modernisation required the mass unemployment of working people across the midlands and north. These people didn't vote Tory and didn't matter. But now? One of the successes of the Tories has been the demonisation of state aid. If you are taking support from the government you must be some kind of scrounger, shirker, failure. Universal Credit, Food Banks, Bedroom Taxes - these are all things that happen to other people and besides its exaggerated.

    Until now. The people being dumped onto UC are increasingly the people told UC was for dossers who live it large on your tax dollars. They are finding the opposite is true, and the "is that all I can get" conversations with the likes of Citizens Advice I am assured are eye-opening. As the middle class increasingly find themselves dumped onto a system that treats them like dirt and provides farthings, whilst at the same time the government issues increasingly patronising messages featuring someone like Ester McVeigh pretenting to drive off to her "staycation" I cannot see how the Tories avoid the political calamity this will bring.

    And just as the pain from their people gets the most acute, we exit from transition with no deal. The borders gum shut, we get mass shortages and what there is costs money that their people don't have. Whilst IDS pops up cheering the glorious future we have now started. No wonder Shagger is looking to step off the stage.

    In 2018 to 2019 the government is forecast to spend £222 billion on the social security system in the UK, £2 billion lower in real terms than in 2017 to 2018.

    £119 billion is forecast to be within the welfare cap, and £103 billion outside the welfare cap. In 2017 to 2018 £122 billion of expenditure was within the welfare cap, and £102 billion was outside.


    Perhaps you'd like to tell us how much more the government should be spending on social security payments.

    And where the extra money should come from.
    A lot of that none welfare cap money is housing benefit paid to private landlords.

    If HMRC and the government wish to really cut costs I can save them billions there and yes some people landlords would scream but investment conditions and change and investments will go up and down.
    HB for Private Rentals is not normally outside the benefit cap, according to the CAB:

    The Benefit Cap is a limit to the total amount of money you can get from benefits. The Benefit Cap will only apply if you get Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    Your benefits will be reduced if you get more than the limit that applies for your circumstances - this means you'll get less Housing Benefit or Universal Credit.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/check-if-the-benefit-cap-applies-to-you/

    According to the OBR, the total spending outside the welfare cap on Housing Benefit is around £ 2bn a year, which covers both Private and Public Rented sectors.
    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/welfare-spending-housing-benefit/

    That is not a "Lot" out of £102bn, or £600 billion for that matter.

    Isn't it time we move on from these silly (and sometimes fake) kneejerk arguments targeted on the Private Rental Sector?


    It says we spend £5000 on average to 4.6m people. If we halved that, to £2500 average, what would happen to the houses and flats the landlords own? Surely they would just rent them out for approx £2500 less to broadly the same people, or sell them to other landlords (who again have to accept the lower rent) or to the people renting.

    What else can they do with the properties that would make them more money?

    Indirectly it would also bring down other private rents for those not on housing benefit, who in turn would spend more into the wider economy more efficiently than they do through rent.
    Several problems with that.

    You are assuming that there is no other demand for new rentals. There is. They would rent the flat to anyone who would pay more than £2500 below market rent, and perhaps get the benefit of not having to deal with Councils. Rents are currently not going down; check any industry reports.

    Currently demand is at near record highs.

    If you try to cut £2500 you would also make many properties lossmaking. If the LLs bale out, then they go for sale to other LLs or people who are *not* HB renters - who are required by the regulations to have little or know capital, and therefore cannot buy houses but will continue to look for rentals. Either way, it is inimical to the interest of HB renters.

    There is also the need to justify that just for tenants in the PRS under Equality Law? Unless you are proposing halving Social Sector HB payments too. What would that do to arrears, the subsidies that would have to be paid to Housing Associations etc to keep them solvent? Social Sector rents are already being marginally reduced, and they are all squealing.
    It's a problem but if the treasury wants to save money Housing Benefit changes will generate more than anything else would.

    And yes there would be squeals but I have a plan for dealing with those...
    No it won't.

    Housing Benefit which pays all or part of the rents of 4.6 million of the least wealthy households people costs £22 billion a year, of which believe approx 60%+ is for Social Sector and 40%- is for Private Sector. Roughly.

    At most you could save a small fraction of that. And note that downward pressure has been in place for many years already, such as a 5 year freeze in cash terms since 2015.

    Meanwhile the CGT Relief on main dwellings - which is money for wealthier sections of society - costs more than £25bn a year, and removing that entirely would generate many times more whilst only costing them at most perhaps 15-20% of the profit made on selling their houses.

    I would be interested to hear your plan and why it should be targeted at the housing of poorer people.
    CGT on main dwellings would be a stupid and unfair tax. (Much could be done though to ensure that you just have at most one property exempt from CGT)
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847
    Afternoon all :)

    Just noted the latest Missouri poll from Trafalgar giving Trump a 52-41 advantage. Trump won 57-38 last time so that's a 4% swing so well in line with other state polls outside the battleground states.

    Biden is building a lead in his strongholds and making a small dent in the Republican strongholds but in the key Midwest and southern marginal states he isn't doing quite as well. The swings there are more like 2-3% rather than the 4-6% seen elsewhere.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847

    Nigelb said:


    In the last half century ?
    Ken Clarke, by a country mile.

    Agree 1 million per cent.
    I think there are a number who would have made credible Prime Ministers.

    Since 1970, I'd put up the following:

    Denis Healey
    Roy Jenkins
    William Whitelaw
    Geoffrey Howe
    Michael Heseltine
    Ken Clarke (as you say)
    George Osborne
    David Milliband
    Yvette Cooper

    That's nine against the field and possibly a couple of others on the fringes.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    TOPPING said:
    Trump has fallen out with a whole load of people that the military look up to.
This discussion has been closed.