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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707
    tlg86 said:

    It may have been triggered by fireworks, but whatever went up was something altogether different.
    Were they storing fireworks next to a fuel depot??
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Andy_JS said:

    These figures are not particularly good for the Democrats:

    "2020 vs 2016

    Top Battlegrounds: Biden+2.1 [2020: Dem+5.5, 2016: Dem+3.4]
    RCP National Average: Biden+0.8 [2020: Dem+7.4, 2016: Dem+6.6]
    Fav Ratings: Trump+4.3 [2020: Dem+11.0, 2016: Dem+15.3]"

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com

    It's worth looking at the individual charts for 2016 and 2020:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html

    August 3, when Clinton led by 7.4%, was the largest lead she held in the five months prior to polling day. So while Trump is doing no worse than in 2016 (today), we do need to caveat that with remembering that it was a particularly bad day in 2016.
  • tlg86 said:

    It may have been triggered by fireworks, but whatever went up was something altogether different.
    Were they storing fireworks next to a fuel depot??
    It’s the port area, but that would seem to be a bad location for a fireworks factory if so...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse.

    https://twitter.com/KyleKashuv/status/1290677103197925377?s=20

    The guy that filmed that is lucky to be alive.
  • Don’t worry, Aaron Bastani has cracked the case, lads.

    https://twitter.com/ozkaterji/status/1290681092622757889?s=21
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse.

    https://twitter.com/KyleKashuv/status/1290677103197925377?s=20

    Military fireworks?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse.

    https://twitter.com/KyleKashuv/status/1290677103197925377?s=20

    The guy that filmed that is lucky to be alive.
    Not sure that you could get an effect like that just from gunpowder. It would have to be an enormous amount, at least.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    At this point, then, it’s hard to see how we avoid another gratuitous catastrophe. The fecklessness of the Trump administration and its allies means that millions of Americans will soon be in dire financial straits.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/opinion/republicans-unemployed-coronavirus.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse.

    https://twitter.com/KyleKashuv/status/1290677103197925377?s=20

    You can see firecrackers going off, but gunpowder doesn't detonate - it only burns. In a container it can cause a shockwave when the container fails, but something else happened here.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, I mean the initial spark. Not the main explosion.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, I mean the initial spark. Not the main explosion.
    I think we can safely rule out the firecracker theory.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, I mean the initial spark. Not the main explosion.
    I think we can safely rule out the firecracker theory.
    Yeah, the main explosion looks like gas storage or maybe something sinister.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Could be Hezbollah's fertiliser stockpile going up accidentally.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    At this point, then, it’s hard to see how we avoid another gratuitous catastrophe. The fecklessness of the Trump administration and its allies means that millions of Americans will soon be in dire financial straits.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/opinion/republicans-unemployed-coronavirus.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    Yebbutt economic ruin is good for the democrats right? Why is Krugman interrupting when his enemy is making a mistake?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    ?! Sunday trading was allowed in Scotland. It was a purely English matter the SNP should not have got involved in.
    I don't think it was ever formally allowed in Scotland so much as never legislated against - no need thanks to huge social pressure from the churches - it only loosened up in the last years of the C20. A nice example of the paradox of assiming the existence or otherwise of a phenomenon from laws for or against it ...

    I have checked, and the reason for the vote on Sunday trading was that cross-border firms were trying to use it as a reason to change pay rates on Sundays and the unions in Scotland (that kind of union, the ones affiliated normally to Labour) asked the SNP to vote against because of that detriment. So it was never a purely English matter.

    The Western Isles still bans Sunday trading completely
    Not quite. You're thinking of the northern part - Lewis and Harris - not the southern part.
    His usual load of tripe re Scotland. You would think having made such a fool of himself over lack of knowledge that he would have learned by now to not try and pontificate when he has no clue what he is talking about.
    Your general point may stand, but thinking that Sunday trading is banned across the Western Isles when it is in fact only banned on Harris and Lewis is hardly the height of ignorance is it?
    Not really.

    The southern islands are very Catholic (roadside shrines and all, plus a 30ft high granite Madonna on South Uist) but oddly that isn't usually mentioned when talking about the culture of the Western Isles. I suppose that nearly half of the population is in Stornoway, which is definitely Wee Free.

    Quite right, though there are several Free Kirks these days, to be even more pedantic.

    Very different Sunday philosophy - each to their own. I am not sure that i tis actually illegal to trade in L&H but the local philosophy is very much against it and the social pressure is there. Like Sundays in Lothian when I was a lad.
    It's great to enhance all our understanding of these issues, but I still maintain that someone English who isn't a regular traveler to or resident of Scotland knowing the Western Isles have different Sunday trading laws from the rest of Scotland, ain't bad. I like Malcolm a lot, but any time someone gets something even vaguely wrong about Scotland he dusts down the same silly script. We're all learning and nobody is perfect.
    Now now Lucky, I have to keep you boys and girls in line, you don't hear me pontificating on eel pies , cockneys or morris dancers , now do you.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2020
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, I mean the initial spark. Not the main explosion.
    I think we can safely rule out the firecracker theory.
    Are you sure? When we had a large explosion at a fireworks depot In Ringmer, Sussex, in 2006, the blast was pretty big. It destroyed buildings over a range of I think about a 100 yd radius, killing two firefighters. The fireworks were illegally stored in a container, which probably made it worse, but perhaps something similar applied here, but on a much larger scale.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse.

    https://twitter.com/KyleKashuv/status/1290677103197925377?s=20

    Wish I hadn't watched that - won't be watching any more. RIP to those who lost their lives.
  • MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, I mean the initial spark. Not the main explosion.
    I think we can safely rule out the firecracker theory.
    Yeah, the main explosion looks like gas storage or maybe something sinister.
    Whilst I don’t doubt that the firework factory was going up, it has ignited something massive - gas/fertiliser? What would detonate like that? It would have to be a huge amount.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    For reference this is a known fireworks factory explosion in China.

    https://youtu.be/ZvtuggAkvoE
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, I mean the initial spark. Not the main explosion.
    I think we can safely rule out the firecracker theory.
    Yeah, the main explosion looks like gas storage or maybe something sinister.
    I don't see how it can be 'more sinister' as in deliberate - setting light to a cracker factory isn't exactly a reliable fuse. Unless it really is a fiendishly clever attack.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    MaxPB said:
    One survivor at Hiroshima was 170 yards from the bomb - in a basement...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, I mean the initial spark. Not the main explosion.
    I think we can safely rule out the firecracker theory.
    Yeah, the main explosion looks like gas storage or maybe something sinister.
    I don't see how it can be 'more sinister' as in deliberate - setting light to a cracker factory isn't exactly a reliable fuse. Unless it really is a fiendishly clever attack.
    No, as in it may have been a storage site for Hezbollah bombs or something that went off accidentally.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2020

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse

    LOL seriously Max? What else might fizz and crackle like that (and I don't mean a Suzuki FS1E).

    Where is @Dura_Ace when we need him.

    Hold on.....

    WHERE IS @DURA_ACE!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, I mean the initial spark. Not the main explosion.
    I think we can safely rule out the firecracker theory.
    Are you sure? When we had a large explosion at a fireworks depot In Ringmer, Sussex, in 2006, the blast was pretty big. It destroyed buildings over a range of I think about a 100 yd radius, killing two firefighters. The fireworks were illegally stored in a container, which probably made it worse, but perhaps something similar applied here, but on a much larger scale.
    Of course I'm not sure!

    But you know, fireworks factory, Beirut, Lebanon, this is what happened say state news guys....
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    edited August 2020
    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    A two-ton anchor was thrown 1.6 miles? Blimey.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    It's reminiscent of this...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzDC3iKbTzY
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    RobD said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    A two-ton anchor was thrown 1.6 miles? Blimey.
    And fractured, too. Cast steel ...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    BBC reckon 'dozens injured'. That'd be remarkable if true
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    RobD said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    A two-ton anchor was thrown 1.6 miles? Blimey.
    News is showing cars flipped onto their roofs. The engine seems to have acted as a pivot.

    I’m wondering whether that concrete building was a fertiliser warehouse. That would account for most of this, including the colour of the smoke.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    How can there be such a disparity between pollsters

    Opinium are the Gold Standard and all the others are outliers
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    A two-ton anchor was thrown 1.6 miles? Blimey.
    News is showing cars flipped onto their roofs. The engine seems to have acted as a pivot.

    I’m wondering whether that concrete building was a fertiliser warehouse. That would account for most of this, including the colour of the smoke.
    A nitrate warehouse. In a city. What could possibly go wrong.

    image
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Don’t worry, Aaron Bastani has cracked

    FTFY.
  • Pulpstar said:

    BBC reckon 'dozens injured'. That'd be remarkable if true

    Unfortunately, they tend to start conservatively and then work their way upwards. I guess it depends on how many people were working at the port at the time.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Pulpstar said:

    BBC reckon 'dozens injured'. That'd be remarkable if true

    Unfortunately, they tend to start conservatively and then work their way upwards. I guess it depends on how many people were working at the port at the time.
    And how many knew to GTFO when the initial fire started.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
    Of course it’s stupid. But this is Lebanon. A country still suffering from the effects of years of war, where poverty remains a big problem and the government is weak and ineffectual. Even if the police had the resources to enforce safety laws, even if they exist, enough money would be passed to the right people that it would be ignored. If the warehouses or their contents were owned by certain groups, even that wouldn’t be needed. (And it wouldn’t have to be arms. Such groups trade to turn a profit.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    At this point, then, it’s hard to see how we avoid another gratuitous catastrophe. The fecklessness of the Trump administration and its allies means that millions of Americans will soon be in dire financial straits.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/opinion/republicans-unemployed-coronavirus.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    Yebbutt economic ruin is good for the democrats right? Why is Krugman interrupting when his enemy is making a mistake?
    Maybe because he cares about the day to day lives of ordinary Americans?

    Most Senators, most House members, most politicians care about the lives of ordinary Americans. Sure, there's partisanship in there, and a desire to win votes in primaries, and the like. But most people go into politics because they want to do good.

    If the Democrats really had cared solely about "winning", they would have let the Republicans overturn Obamacare (without a replacement). Getting rid of the health insurance of tens of millions of Americans (many of whom were in swing states in the Midwest) would have pretty much guaranteed a Trump loss this year.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    34 percent? Uncomfortably high. Well, I guess, like rats, you're never more than 10 feet from a fool.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    ydoethur said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
    Of course it’s stupid. But this is Lebanon. A country still suffering from the effects of years of war, where poverty remains a big problem and the government is weak and ineffectual. Even if the police had the resources to enforce safety laws, even if they exist, enough money would be passed to the right people that it would be ignored. If the warehouses or their contents were owned by certain groups, even that wouldn’t be needed. (And it wouldn’t have to be arms. Such groups trade to turn a profit.)
    These things do happen when dealing with dangerous substances.

    After all, we've had Buncefield and (for those with longer memories) Flixborough.

    I bet those wouldn't have looked much different if there had been an army of people with cameras at the time.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    ydoethur said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
    Of course it’s stupid. But this is Lebanon. A country still suffering from the effects of years of war, where poverty remains a big problem and the government is weak and ineffectual. Even if the police had the resources to enforce safety laws, even if they exist, enough money would be passed to the right people that it would be ignored. If the warehouses or their contents were owned by certain groups, even that wouldn’t be needed. (And it wouldn’t have to be arms. Such groups trade to turn a profit.)
    It's been barely noted on here but Lebanon is currently in the middle of a severe economic crisis which is threatening to destabilise the country. Can't imagine this will help.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
    Of course it’s stupid. But this is Lebanon. A country still suffering from the effects of years of war, where poverty remains a big problem and the government is weak and ineffectual. Even if the police had the resources to enforce safety laws, even if they exist, enough money would be passed to the right people that it would be ignored. If the warehouses or their contents were owned by certain groups, even that wouldn’t be needed. (And it wouldn’t have to be arms. Such groups trade to turn a profit.)
    Yes, what has happened to Lebanon, and Beirut in particular, over the past 30 years or so is absolutely tragic. It used to be the jewel of the Middle East. Now it's ravaged by terrorism and war - nowadays other people's wars - and the economy is completely knackered. But this looks bad even by the scale of Lebanon tragedy.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Lebanon is probably my favorite African country. Long long history. And they, the Phoenicians, invented the alphabet I believe.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    Toms said:

    Lebanon is probably my favorite African country. Long long history. And they, the Phoenicians, invented the alphabet I believe.

    Asian surely?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
    Of course it’s stupid. But this is Lebanon. A country still suffering from the effects of years of war, where poverty remains a big problem and the government is weak and ineffectual. Even if the police had the resources to enforce safety laws, even if they exist, enough money would be passed to the right people that it would be ignored. If the warehouses or their contents were owned by certain groups, even that wouldn’t be needed. (And it wouldn’t have to be arms. Such groups trade to turn a profit.)
    These things do happen when dealing with dangerous substances.

    After all, we've had Buncefield and (for those with longer memories) Flixborough.

    I bet those wouldn't have looked much different if there had been an army of people with cameras at the time.
    Yes - but those were to a great extent contained (yes, I know the smoke from Buncefield made it to Salisbury) and there were no disastrous secondary effects as here.

    This is the equivalent of SP Plastics going up, sending up Buncefield as a secondary effect, in the middle of London.
  • Toms said:

    Lebanon is probably my favorite African country. Long long history. And they, the Phoenicians, invented the alphabet I believe.

    African??
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    ydoethur said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
    Of course it’s stupid. But this is Lebanon. A country still suffering from the effects of years of war, where poverty remains a big problem and the government is weak and ineffectual. Even if the police had the resources to enforce safety laws, even if they exist, enough money would be passed to the right people that it would be ignored. If the warehouses or their contents were owned by certain groups, even that wouldn’t be needed. (And it wouldn’t have to be arms. Such groups trade to turn a profit.)
    Yes, what has happened to Lebanon, and Beirut in particular, over the past 30 years or so is absolutely tragic. It used to be the jewel of the Middle East. Now it's ravaged by terrorism and war - nowadays other people's wars - and the economy is completely knackered. But this looks bad even by the scale of Lebanon tragedy.
    @ flatlander: And West, Texas fertilizer plant in 2013. The CSB report video is good. It eventually turned out to be arson, but this took years to establish

    https://www.csb.gov/west-fertilizer-explosion-and-fire-/
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Toms said:

    Lebanon is probably my favorite African country. Long long history. And they, the Phoenicians, invented the alphabet I believe.

    Not African, and the Phoenicians did not invent the alphabet, they just spread it to non-semitic speakers.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    OK OK. Throw Asia into the statement, but emphasize the "probably".
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Toms said:

    Lebanon is probably my favorite African country. Long long history. And they, the Phoenicians, invented the alphabet I believe.

    African??
    It's part of South West Asia. Africa stops at the Red Sea/Suez
  • ydoethur said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
    Of course it’s stupid. But this is Lebanon. A country still suffering from the effects of years of war, where poverty remains a big problem and the government is weak and ineffectual. Even if the police had the resources to enforce safety laws, even if they exist, enough money would be passed to the right people that it would be ignored. If the warehouses or their contents were owned by certain groups, even that wouldn’t be needed. (And it wouldn’t have to be arms. Such groups trade to turn a profit.)
    Yes, what has happened to Lebanon, and Beirut in particular, over the past 30 years or so is absolutely tragic. It used to be the jewel of the Middle East. Now it's ravaged by terrorism and war - nowadays other people's wars - and the economy is completely knackered. But this looks bad even by the scale of Lebanon tragedy.
    My Dad used to visit a lot for work during the oil boom/Paris of the Middle East years, and absolutely loved it. I was born in the 70s, so have only ever associated it with ongoing wars.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Toms said:

    Lebanon is probably my favorite African country. Long long history. And they, the Phoenicians, invented the alphabet I believe.

    Not African, and the Phoenicians did not invent the alphabet, they just spread it to non-semitic speakers.
    Regardless, they claim to be the oldest source of our current alphabet. They tell you so at the museum in Byblos.

    http://www.jbail-byblos.gov.lb/baldati/project?la=en&id=19
  • .

    ydoethur said:

    Yeah, that makes much more sense. A fertilizer store.

    See: Texas City, 1947
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    Having fireworks next to a nitrate warehouse doesn't seem to be the smartest idea out there.

    ... by the harbour of a crowded city.
    Of course it’s stupid. But this is Lebanon. A country still suffering from the effects of years of war, where poverty remains a big problem and the government is weak and ineffectual. Even if the police had the resources to enforce safety laws, even if they exist, enough money would be passed to the right people that it would be ignored. If the warehouses or their contents were owned by certain groups, even that wouldn’t be needed. (And it wouldn’t have to be arms. Such groups trade to turn a profit.)
    These things do happen when dealing with dangerous substances.

    After all, we've had Buncefield and (for those with longer memories) Flixborough.

    I bet those wouldn't have looked much different if there had been an army of people with cameras at the time.
    On a much smaller scale, but still capable of causing an arse twitch is the state of some of the farms we visit with regard to their handling and storage of fertilisers.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Not only did IDS not read the Withdrawal Agreement that he voted for and insisted should be ratified without delay, he also doesn't understand the bits he didn't read:

    https://twitter.com/JamesCrisp6/status/1290624097542639616
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Also, I am very visually ""oriented"", I was never much good at geography. Still much to learn.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scott_xP said:
    Do we know that net is better than positives? The polls show that more people like Boris than do Keir, the latter is just less disliked by those who don't positively like him
  • Not only did IDS not read the Withdrawal Agreement that he voted for and insisted should be ratified without delay, he also doesn't understand the bits he didn't read:

    https://twitter.com/JamesCrisp6/status/1290624097542639616

    Should I assay surprise and shock?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Not only did IDS not read the Withdrawal Agreement that he voted for and insisted should be ratified without delay, he also doesn't understand the bits he didn't read:

    https://twitter.com/JamesCrisp6/status/1290624097542639616

    Should I assay surprise and shock?
    I was looking for a ‘Pope is Catholic’ emoji.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707

    Not only did IDS not read the Withdrawal Agreement that he voted for and insisted should be ratified without delay, he also doesn't understand the bits he didn't read:

    https://twitter.com/JamesCrisp6/status/1290624097542639616

    Should I assay surprise and shock?
    It's not the first time IDS has taken the Prime Minister's word for something and then expressed outrage when he turned out to have been lying.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    If that’s true, the government has two outcomes.

    1) They might be kicked out of office

    2) They might be kicked out of office and stood against a wall.

    Of all stupid things to do, just to leave it in the middle of a city...

    Ironically, of course, it isn’t even their fault as it was their predecessors who’ve cocked up.
  • malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    ?! Sunday trading was allowed in Scotland. It was a purely English matter the SNP should not have got involved in.
    I don't think it was ever formally allowed in Scotland so much as never legislated against - no need thanks to huge social pressure from the churches - it only loosened up in the last years of the C20. A nice example of the paradox of assiming the existence or otherwise of a phenomenon from laws for or against it ...

    I have checked, and the reason for the vote on Sunday trading was that cross-border firms were trying to use it as a reason to change pay rates on Sundays and the unions in Scotland (that kind of union, the ones affiliated normally to Labour) asked the SNP to vote against because of that detriment. So it was never a purely English matter.

    The Western Isles still bans Sunday trading completely
    Not quite. You're thinking of the northern part - Lewis and Harris - not the southern part.
    His usual load of tripe re Scotland. You would think having made such a fool of himself over lack of knowledge that he would have learned by now to not try and pontificate when he has no clue what he is talking about.
    Your general point may stand, but thinking that Sunday trading is banned across the Western Isles when it is in fact only banned on Harris and Lewis is hardly the height of ignorance is it?
    Not really.

    The southern islands are very Catholic (roadside shrines and all, plus a 30ft high granite Madonna on South Uist) but oddly that isn't usually mentioned when talking about the culture of the Western Isles. I suppose that nearly half of the population is in Stornoway, which is definitely Wee Free.

    I will now out-pedant the lot of you (mainlanders, Stornowegians, whatever) by observing that the "Southern Isles", being a term for the island group that includes Berneray, North Uist, Benbecula, South Uist, Barra, and some other islands, are NOT all "very Catholic". Taking it from the top: Berneray and North Uist are predominantly Protestant; Benbecula is mixed; and it's only when you get to South Uist and, further south, Barra and Eriskay, that you find islands that are predominantly Catholic. (But don't believe anyone who says the British army presence on Benbecula was to separate the two religious camps.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    England case numbers, scaled.

    Anyone using the last 3-5 days to prove a point is an idiot.

    image
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    England case numbers, absolute

    Anyone using the last 3-5 days to prove a point is an idiot.

    image
  • No wonder it went up like that. Spot of genius storing something so explosive right next to a firework factory and so close to the city centre.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Stippled said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    ?! Sunday trading was allowed in Scotland. It was a purely English matter the SNP should not have got involved in.
    I don't think it was ever formally allowed in Scotland so much as never legislated against - no need thanks to huge social pressure from the churches - it only loosened up in the last years of the C20. A nice example of the paradox of assiming the existence or otherwise of a phenomenon from laws for or against it ...

    I have checked, and the reason for the vote on Sunday trading was that cross-border firms were trying to use it as a reason to change pay rates on Sundays and the unions in Scotland (that kind of union, the ones affiliated normally to Labour) asked the SNP to vote against because of that detriment. So it was never a purely English matter.

    The Western Isles still bans Sunday trading completely
    Not quite. You're thinking of the northern part - Lewis and Harris - not the southern part.
    His usual load of tripe re Scotland. You would think having made such a fool of himself over lack of knowledge that he would have learned by now to not try and pontificate when he has no clue what he is talking about.
    Your general point may stand, but thinking that Sunday trading is banned across the Western Isles when it is in fact only banned on Harris and Lewis is hardly the height of ignorance is it?
    Not really.

    The southern islands are very Catholic (roadside shrines and all, plus a 30ft high granite Madonna on South Uist) but oddly that isn't usually mentioned when talking about the culture of the Western Isles. I suppose that nearly half of the population is in Stornoway, which is definitely Wee Free.

    I will now out-pedant the lot of you (mainlanders, Stornowegians, whatever) by observing that the "Southern Isles", being a term for the island group that includes Berneray, North Uist, Benbecula, South Uist, Barra, and some other islands, are NOT all "very Catholic". Taking it from the top: Berneray and North Uist are predominantly Protestant; Benbecula is mixed; and it's only when you get to South Uist and, further south, Barra and Eriskay, that you find islands that are predominantly Catholic. (But don't believe anyone who says the British army presence on Benbecula was to separate the two religious camps.)
    Welcome.

    I duly acknowledge I have been outpedanted by a true master.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do we know that net is better than positives? The polls show that more people like Boris than do Keir, the latter is just less disliked by those who don't positively like him
    When it was Cameron vs EdM, IPSOS-MORI asked the favourability question 56 times.

    Ed led on net ratings in 24 of them, but only had more positive likes 9 times
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:
    It may be an age thing especially reading from a script . Not sure ridiculing him for this is being fair to people who struggles (sometimes with age) to read first hand
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Have been wondering lately which country may face the first full on revolution of the Covid age.
    Lebanon was already prominent in my musings.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060

    ydoethur said:
    It may be an age thing especially reading from a script . Not sure ridiculing him for this is being fair to people who struggles (sometimes with age) to read first hand
    He could always wear glasses, but he can't since he makes fun of people who do.
  • Scott_xP said:
    I watch a lot of Youtube videos and am amazed by the number of seemingly well-educated speakers (no doubt with smart genes) who mispronounce relatively common words. The rot set in when London Transport announcements pronounced Plaistow as PLAYstow, which was the first indication Ken was a wrong'un.

    As an aside, I work for a well-known purveyor of AI tools to the gentry and occasionally a call goes out for native speakers of various foreign languages to record questions and answers on various topics.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:
    It may be an age thing especially reading from a script . Not sure ridiculing him for this is being fair to people who struggles (sometimes with age) to read first hand
    You clearly didn’t get the pun there.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    England case numbers, absolute

    Anyone using the last 3-5 days to prove a point is an idiot.

    image

    I see your disclaimer on the 3-5 day data is becoming more succinct.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Scott_xP said:
    I watch a lot of Youtube videos and am amazed by the number of seemingly well-educated speakers (no doubt with smart genes) who mispronounce relatively common words. The rot set in when London Transport announcements pronounced Plaistow as PLAYstow, which was the first indication Ken was a wrong'un.

    As an aside, I work for a well-known purveyor of AI tools to the gentry and occasionally a call goes out for native speakers of various foreign languages to record questions and answers on various topics.

    There are some right ones round here.
    Hednesford
    Alrewas
    Rugeley
    Blithefield.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    TimT said:

    England case numbers, absolute

    Anyone using the last 3-5 days to prove a point is an idiot.

    image

    I see your disclaimer on the 3-5 day data is becoming more succinct.
    The next person... how much does Agent 47 charge, again?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:
    It may be an age thing especially reading from a script . Not sure ridiculing him for this is being fair to people who struggles (sometimes with age) to read first hand
    You clearly didn’t get the pun there.
    Well tbf I was more negative of the sneering twitter post than yours
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:
    It may be an age thing especially reading from a script . Not sure ridiculing him for this is being fair to people who struggles (sometimes with age) to read first hand
    You clearly didn’t get the pun there.
    Well tbf I was more negative of the sneering twitter post than yours
    Well, I thought the Sample thing was an awesome pun.

    But clearly I was being too subtle.
  • Pulpstar said:

    How have Scottish teachers managed to collectively up the grades by 14% from at least the previous 4 cohorts. Frankly that beggars belief.

    Haven't they effectively admitted that their pupils would do better without going to school ?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    Around here you know you are not local if you pronounce Rainworth and Southwell as they are written when in fact locals call them (and admittedly do sneer at outsiders who perfectly reasonably think they are to be pronounced as written) REN -UTH and SUTH-UL
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Pulpstar said:

    How have Scottish teachers managed to collectively up the grades by 14% from at least the previous 4 cohorts. Frankly that beggars belief.

    Haven't they effectively admitted that their pupils would do better without going to school ?
    Very possibly some of them would.

    Where would you work more effectively - at home, or in a school where everyone else is causing chaos and if you are seen working you get beaten up?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Around here you know you are not local if you pronounce Rainworth and Southwell as they are written when in fact locals call them (and admittedly do sneer at outsiders who perfectly reasonably think they are to be pronounced as written) REN -UTH and SUTH-UL

    Around here you know you are not local if you pronounce Rainworth and Southwell as they are written when in fact locals call them (and admittedly do sneer at outsiders who perfectly reasonably think they are to be pronounced as written) REN -UTH and SUTH-UL

    Clearly pronunciation is an issue where you tie yourself up in Notts.

    (Is that better?)
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Around here you know you are not local if you pronounce Rainworth and Southwell as they are written when in fact locals call them (and admittedly do sneer at outsiders who perfectly reasonably think they are to be pronounced as written) REN -UTH and SUTH-UL

    Averton Gifford.

    As a kid, I was told there were two correct pronunciations: Oughton Gifford (hard g), or Averton Jifford (soft g, or j); but not Oughton Jifford, or Averton Gifford.
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I watch a lot of Youtube videos and am amazed by the number of seemingly well-educated speakers (no doubt with smart genes) who mispronounce relatively common words. The rot set in when London Transport announcements pronounced Plaistow as PLAYstow, which was the first indication Ken was a wrong'un.

    As an aside, I work for a well-known purveyor of AI tools to the gentry and occasionally a call goes out for native speakers of various foreign languages to record questions and answers on various topics.

    There are some right ones round here.
    Hednesford
    Alrewas
    Rugeley
    Blithefield.
    You know what recently blew my mind?

    Every 'c' in Pacific Ocean is pronounced differently.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    TimT said:

    Around here you know you are not local if you pronounce Rainworth and Southwell as they are written when in fact locals call them (and admittedly do sneer at outsiders who perfectly reasonably think they are to be pronounced as written) REN -UTH and SUTH-UL

    Averton Gifford.

    As a kid, I was told there were two correct pronunciations: Oughton Gifford (hard g), or Averton Jifford (soft g, or j); but not Oughton Jifford, or Averton Gifford.
    Carnforth always confuses non-locals.

    I’ve heard many interesting ways of pronouncing Clifford’s Mesne as well.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I watch a lot of Youtube videos and am amazed by the number of seemingly well-educated speakers (no doubt with smart genes) who mispronounce relatively common words. The rot set in when London Transport announcements pronounced Plaistow as PLAYstow, which was the first indication Ken was a wrong'un.

    As an aside, I work for a well-known purveyor of AI tools to the gentry and occasionally a call goes out for native speakers of various foreign languages to record questions and answers on various topics.

    There are some right ones round here.
    Hednesford
    Alrewas
    Rugeley
    Blithefield.
    You know what recently blew my mind?

    Every 'c' in Pacific Ocean is pronounced differently.
    I joke with foreign friends that gheti is pronounced 'fish' in English (enough, women, notion). Now I feel I should spell fish 'ghece'.
  • England case numbers, absolute

    Anyone using the last 3-5 days to prove a point is an idiot.

    image

    It would be interesting to know tests per area.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Worrying trend from the ONS data today, excess deaths in homes have continued to rise. This points to more people dying of undiagnosed health issues rather than having them treated in hospital.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206

    England case numbers, absolute

    Anyone using the last 3-5 days to prove a point is an idiot.

    image

    Am I being thick, or has High Peak gone AWOL? Looked through several times and can't spot it
This discussion has been closed.