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  • NYT 08.04.2020 Trump downplays John Lewis’s accomplishments and nurses a grudge: ‘He didn’t come to my inauguration.’

    Mr. Trump played down the accomplishments of Representative John Lewis, the recently deceased civil rights icon, and criticized him for not attending the Trump inauguration in January 2017.

    The comments from Mr. Trump, in an interview with “Axios on HBO” that aired Monday night, were unsurprising, given his penchant for grievance. But they were nonetheless stunning for the degree to which Mr. Trump refused to view Mr. Lewis’s life and legacy in terms beyond how it related to Mr. Trump himself.

    “I never met John Lewis, actually,” Mr. Trump said. “He didn’t come to my inauguration. He didn’t come to my State of the Union speeches, and that’s OK. That’s his right.”

    Asked to reflect on Mr. Lewis’s contributions to the civil rights movement, Mr. Trump instead talked up his own record.

    “Again, nobody has done more for Black Americans than I have,” he said. “He should have come. I think he made a big mistake.”

    Mr. Trump declined to say whether he found Mr. Lewis’s life story “impressive.” He seemed indifferent to renaming the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Ala., after the congressman. The bridge, named after a former Confederate general, Grand Dragon in the K.K.K. and senator, was the site of a turning point in the civil rights movement that became known as Bloody Sunday.

    On that day, March 7, 1965, Mr. Lewis suffered a cracked skull during a march across the bridge when a state trooper clubbed him and beat him to the ground. The moment was a defining one in his life and in the civil rights movement. Mr. Trump, in the Axios interview, suggested there “were many others also” whose work should be praised.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    Scott_xP said:
    The government certainly doesn't deserve to be so far ahead given their inept handling of the current crisis. I wonder why Starmer isn't cutting through with the public.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The government certainly doesn't deserve to be so far ahead given their inept handling of the current crisis. I wonder why Starmer isn't cutting through with the public.
    I do not think it is Starmer but more just how toxic the labour brand became under Corbyn
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
    I sometimes have that image when I have a couple of kids in the back. The barrels are always empty, unfortunately!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    Again decency shouldn't be yours to judge. There were no legal cross border effects either, potential knock on consequences but that's true in any change of law. For Scottish laws the English MPs get no say. For English laws the Scottish MPs do. Until that situation is resolved, the Scottish MPs should be treated as second class MPs and subordinate to English MPs. That is the natural consequence of Westminster setting English but not Scottish law.

    Scottish independence is the best fix for that IMO. Or the abolition of Holyrood.
    There were issues that affected Scottish retail laws and trading , it was well justified and SNP offered them a solution if they excluded Scotland but the erses refused. It would have meant Scotland closing shops.
    The law didn't affect Scotland so no it doesn't justify it. If the shoe was on the other foot, if Holyrood was changing a Scottish only law that would affect English retail and trading then would English MPs have got a vote on that? No, of course not.
    I've just explained to him that it did.

    Facts and reality do not count, just Scotland MP's should be subservient and know their places.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    He said, and you quoted at first, "less skilled", not "unskilled". But I get what you mean. I guess it's used as short hand for a job you don't need a degree/formal qualification for?
    Years ago you didn’t need a degree to become an accountant or lawyer.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    He said, and you quoted at first, "less skilled", not "unskilled". But I get what you mean. I guess it's used as short hand for a job you don't need a degree/formal qualification for?
    Years ago you didn’t need a degree to become an accountant or lawyer.
    I thought you needed a degree to be a lawyer, just not one in law? As distinct from a solicitor, where you did articles?

    Or was it because most lawyers were of the social set that went to university?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Scott_xP said:
    The government is right to plan on that basis. As some of us have been saying for yonks, even without Covid-19 there was simply not time for industry and governments to plan for the end of the transition on Dec 31st. Both needed a good period - probably at least 6 months - to recruit and train up staff, sort out administrative procedures, understand the form-filling requirements and where they can get the necessary data, and test out the computer systems. That is six months from the point where the detail of the trade agreement, if any, is known. As it is, with luck they'll have just a few weeks, and that includes Christmas. There is zero chance of everything being ready - and that would be true even without Covid-19.

    It is utter insanity, but the Conservative Party has completely lost its mind. The consequences for the country, and indeed for the party, will be dire.
  • malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    Again decency shouldn't be yours to judge. There were no legal cross border effects either, potential knock on consequences but that's true in any change of law. For Scottish laws the English MPs get no say. For English laws the Scottish MPs do. Until that situation is resolved, the Scottish MPs should be treated as second class MPs and subordinate to English MPs. That is the natural consequence of Westminster setting English but not Scottish law.

    Scottish independence is the best fix for that IMO. Or the abolition of Holyrood.
    There were issues that affected Scottish retail laws and trading , it was well justified and SNP offered them a solution if they excluded Scotland but the erses refused. It would have meant Scotland closing shops.
    The law didn't affect Scotland so no it doesn't justify it. If the shoe was on the other foot, if Holyrood was changing a Scottish only law that would affect English retail and trading then would English MPs have got a vote on that? No, of course not.
    I've just explained to him that it did.

    Facts and reality do not count, just Scotland MP's should be subservient and know their places.
    What facts?

    Did this law change apply directly to Scotland or only England?

    If the situation was reversed would English MPs have been able to vote on a Scottish law change?

    Reciprocity is key. Scottish MPs should be able to vote on laws applying to England on subjects that English MPs can vote on laws applying to Scotland. If not, then Scottish MPs have no business voting on that matter - even if Scotland is indirectly affected.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:


    What was the reason for what seems a special degree of hatred for the Ukrainians?

    It's rather complicated, and absolutely horrific, but basically many Ukrainians sided enthusiastically with the Nazis to save themselves from the Russians, conducting their own atrocities which in some cases even the Nazis thought were over the top. As things developed - badly - the Nazis started rounding up Ukrainians, so it wasn't even successful as a mode of self-preservation. Then as the tide turned the Russians advanced over Ukraine and took a horrendous revenge.

    The whole WWII history of Eastern Europe is full of multi-faceted horrors, in which in wasn't just the Nazis and Soviets who were guilty of war crimes, but is relatively unknown in the West.

    This is an excellent book on the subject:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Empire-Nazi-Occupied-Europe/dp/0141011920
    The Holdomar was before WWII, not after it. It's the reason the Ukrainians were so keen on the Nazis, whom they saw as liberators.
    Unfortunately the Nazis weren't so keen on the Ukrainians:

    "We are a master race, which must remember that the lowliest German worker is racially and biologically a thousand times more valuable than the population here." - Erich Koch in 1943.

    Erich Koch was "Reichskommissar" for Ukraine 1941 to 1944.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ukraine
    We all make mistakes.

    Fortunately not usually as bad as that.
    We usually think of "USSR Casualties" in WW2 as x 10s of millions, and treat it as a single unit, singularly heroic in support of Stalin.

    It is instructive to think about individual republics.

    Ukraine for example lost 5 million civilians in WW2, on top of the 4 million Stalin had killed by starvation a decade earlier.
    Don't forget the several million more who died in the famine of 1946-48 as well after Stalin refused food aid from the USA.
    Ukraine was between a rock and a hard place in WW2.
    So was Belarus. A friend of mine is from Minsk. He jokes that the city is not worth visiting: everytime there is a war in Europe the city gets trashed by armies trying to get to the other side.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Wilson is a real balloon, you could not find a nastier piece of work.
    Attacking the player tells me that you know this is going to be a real problem (and it will be, in 1 single move the SQA have screwed up the entire lives of the a lot of Scotland's poorest 17-18 year olds).
    Just to confirm, you're in favour of a year-on-year 19.8 point increase in pass rate figures for the 20% of most deprived kids based entirely on teachers' estimates?

    I'm not sure about tinkering about the edges solutions for large structural problems, but in this case I'm for it just to see the raging.
    No but SQA missed out a step (when they should have said to the schools, sorry but your figures look wrong, can you be more realistic) which makes them look like a bunch of idiots.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    He said, and you quoted at first, "less skilled", not "unskilled". But I get what you mean. I guess it's used as short hand for a job you don't need a degree/formal qualification for?
    Years ago you didn’t need a degree to become an accountant or lawyer.
    You still don't to become an accountant, the ICAEW have got multiple routes to a chartership without needing a degree.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    He said, and you quoted at first, "less skilled", not "unskilled". But I get what you mean. I guess it's used as short hand for a job you don't need a degree/formal qualification for?
    Years ago you didn’t need a degree to become an accountant or lawyer.
    As far as I am aware you still don't need a degree to become an accountant in the UK, but you do need to pass the professional exams. I'm guessing that these days it is hard to be taken on as a trainee accountant without a degree though.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The Tories on 44% ! I wonder if there’s also a stupid virus going about aswell as Covid .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:


    What was the reason for what seems a special degree of hatred for the Ukrainians?

    It's rather complicated, and absolutely horrific, but basically many Ukrainians sided enthusiastically with the Nazis to save themselves from the Russians, conducting their own atrocities which in some cases even the Nazis thought were over the top. As things developed - badly - the Nazis started rounding up Ukrainians, so it wasn't even successful as a mode of self-preservation. Then as the tide turned the Russians advanced over Ukraine and took a horrendous revenge.

    The whole WWII history of Eastern Europe is full of multi-faceted horrors, in which in wasn't just the Nazis and Soviets who were guilty of war crimes, but is relatively unknown in the West.

    This is an excellent book on the subject:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Empire-Nazi-Occupied-Europe/dp/0141011920
    The Holdomar was before WWII, not after it. It's the reason the Ukrainians were so keen on the Nazis, whom they saw as liberators.
    Unfortunately the Nazis weren't so keen on the Ukrainians:

    "We are a master race, which must remember that the lowliest German worker is racially and biologically a thousand times more valuable than the population here." - Erich Koch in 1943.

    Erich Koch was "Reichskommissar" for Ukraine 1941 to 1944.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ukraine
    We all make mistakes.

    Fortunately not usually as bad as that.
    We usually think of "USSR Casualties" in WW2 as x 10s of millions, and treat it as a single unit, singularly heroic in support of Stalin.

    It is instructive to think about individual republics.

    Ukraine for example lost 5 million civilians in WW2, on top of the 4 million Stalin had killed by starvation a decade earlier.
    Don't forget the several million more who died in the famine of 1946-48 as well after Stalin refused food aid from the USA.
    Ukraine was between a rock and a hard place in WW2.
    So was Belarus. A friend of mine is from Minsk. He jokes that the city is not worth visiting: everytime there is a war in Europe the city gets trashed by armies trying to get to the other side.
    Old Polish joke:

    A Pole is on a desert island. One day, a lamp is washed up. He rubs it and to his shock, a genie appears.

    'Thank you for freeing me from imprisonment,' said the genie. 'In exchange, I will grant you three wishes.'

    The Pole doesn't hesitate. 'I would like the Mongol hordes to sack pillage and destroy Warsaw,' he said.

    The genie claps his hands. 'It is done, master. What is your second wish?'

    The Pole still doesn't hesitate. 'I would like the Mongol hordes to sack pillage and destroy Warsaw,' he said.

    The genie looks rather surprised. However, that's what was asked for, so he claps his hands again. 'Done, master. And what is your third wish?'

    Once more, the Pole says, 'I would like the Mongol hordes...'

    The genie interrupts, 'OK, OK, to sack, pillage and destroy Warsaw.' Claps his hands. 'Done. Now master, one question. Here you are on a desert island. Nothing to eat. Nothing to drunk. No companions. No escape. Why did you ask for the Mongol hordes to sack, pillage and destroy Warsaw three times?'

    'Because,' replies the Pole, 'that means they will have had to cross Russia SIX times!'
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    ?! Sunday trading was allowed in Scotland. It was a purely English matter the SNP should not have got involved in.
    I don't think it was ever formally allowed in Scotland so much as never legislated against - no need thanks to huge social pressure from the churches - it only loosened up in the last years of the C20. A nice example of the paradox of assiming the existence or otherwise of a phenomenon from laws for or against it ...

    I have checked, and the reason for the vote on Sunday trading was that cross-border firms were trying to use it as a reason to change pay rates on Sundays and the unions in Scotland (that kind of union, the ones affiliated normally to Labour) asked the SNP to vote against because of that detriment. So it was never a purely English matter.

    The Western Isles still bans Sunday trading completely
    Not quite. You're thinking of the northern part - Lewis and Harris - not the southern part.
    His usual load of tripe re Scotland. You would think having made such a fool of himself over lack of knowledge that he would have learned by now to not try and pontificate when he has no clue what he is talking about.
    Your general point may stand, but thinking that Sunday trading is banned across the Western Isles when it is in fact only banned on Harris and Lewis is hardly the height of ignorance is it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The government certainly doesn't deserve to be so far ahead given their inept handling of the current crisis. I wonder why Starmer isn't cutting through with the public.
    Well, Starmer is up on the leadership ratings, and government approval down, so rather odd that Con shows as up. Some contradictory indicators methinks.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
    I sometimes have that image when I have a couple of kids in the back. The barrels are always empty, unfortunately!
    I thought you meant the barrels of a gun! Or maybe you did!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
    I sometimes have that image when I have a couple of kids in the back. The barrels are always empty, unfortunately!
    Why Jaguar doesn’t use such a photo in their marketing material beats me!

    Or this one - https://imgur.com/WAS2OPr.
  • How can there be such a disparity between pollsters
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The government certainly doesn't deserve to be so far ahead given their inept handling of the current crisis. I wonder why Starmer isn't cutting through with the public.
    Well, Starmer is up on the leadership ratings, and government approval down, so rather odd that Con shows as up. Some contradictory indicators methinks.
    I don't think it's too surprising. Labour don't look anything like ready for government. Sir Keir has made a good start (although he's a very poor speaker), but the rest of the team is invisible, the party is still riddled with factionalism, and there is zero policy development. Of course, this is a marathon, not a sprint, so there's plenty of time for them to build up from here.

    On the other side of the equation, the Brexit disaster hasn't happened yet, and whilst the Covid-19 response has been mixed, I expect that voters are aware that it was never going to be easy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
    I sometimes have that image when I have a couple of kids in the back. The barrels are always empty, unfortunately!
    Why Jaguar doesn’t use such a photo in their marketing material beats me!

    Or this one - https://imgur.com/WAS2OPr.
    It would be reckless to the point of foolishness to put into the popular mind that plant life drive in Jags.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The government certainly doesn't deserve to be so far ahead given their inept handling of the current crisis. I wonder why Starmer isn't cutting through with the public.
    Well, Starmer is up on the leadership ratings, and government approval down, so rather odd that Con shows as up. Some contradictory indicators methinks.
    I don't think it's too surprising. Labour don't look anything like ready for government. Sir Keir has made a good start (although he's a very poor speaker), but the rest of the team is invisible, the party is still riddled with factionalism, and there is zero policy development. Of course, this is a marathon, not a sprint, so there's plenty of time for them to build up from here.

    On the other side of the equation, the Brexit disaster hasn't happened yet, and whilst the Covid-19 response has been mixed, I expect that voters are aware that it was never going to be easy.
    Yes, Starmer has higher approval than his party, an improvement on Jezza but not enough on its own.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I don’t think you need a degree to become a lawyer anymore, either. You can get an apprenticeship with a law firm.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
    I sometimes have that image when I have a couple of kids in the back. The barrels are always empty, unfortunately!
    Why Jaguar doesn’t use such a photo in their marketing material beats me!

    Or this one - https://imgur.com/WAS2OPr.
    It would be reckless to the point of foolishness to put into the popular mind that plant life drive in Jags.
    Ahem!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Scott_xP said:
    Which means they didn't look at the past performance of the pupils against historic expectations - at least Ofqual did that in theory..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
    I sometimes have that image when I have a couple of kids in the back. The barrels are always empty, unfortunately!
    Why Jaguar doesn’t use such a photo in their marketing material beats me!

    Or this one - https://imgur.com/WAS2OPr.
    It would be reckless to the point of foolishness to put into the popular mind that plant life drive in Jags.
    Ahem!
    Exactly! :smiley:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Which means they didn't look at the past performance of the pupils against historic expectations - at least Ofqual did that in theory..
    And at least OFQUAL are offering resits. Don't forget that very important difference as well.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
    I sometimes have that image when I have a couple of kids in the back. The barrels are always empty, unfortunately!
    Why Jaguar doesn’t use such a photo in their marketing material beats me!

    Or this one - https://imgur.com/WAS2OPr.
    It would be reckless to the point of foolishness to put into the popular mind that plant life drive in Jags.
    Last time I was at Hampton Court I managed to get 50 plants into the car.

    (The RHS show, I mean. I didn’t just go to the palace and steal plants.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    I hesitated when I typed that and am willing to take my bollocking in good grace. You are absolutely right.
    I wasn’t getting at you particularly. The last few months - and seeing my daughter’s business up close - has made me rethink my views on value and skills.

    And in not many jobs do you get to do this - https://imgur.com/UjFUCl7.
    I sometimes have that image when I have a couple of kids in the back. The barrels are always empty, unfortunately!
    Why Jaguar doesn’t use such a photo in their marketing material beats me!

    Or this one - https://imgur.com/WAS2OPr.
    It would be reckless to the point of foolishness to put into the popular mind that plant life drive in Jags.
    Last time I was at Hampton Court I managed to get 50 plants into the car.

    (The RHS show, I mean. I didn’t just got to the palace and steal plants.)
    When you say 50 plants, how many of the Royal Family were in residence?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Stocky said:

    I`m not sure about the Eat Out to Help Out thing.

    Just back from Devon. A few observations:

    - We were after a takeaway coffee on the seafront, but ended up sitting in and drinking it as it was half price. Cafe owner tipped us off. Full price if we had walked away with it.

    - In evening we had a meal in a cafe (three of us) and £46 bill became £23

    - In both instances, we would have bought these goods at full price if scheme wasn`t in existence

    - the discounts were applied automatically. We didn`t have to ask for them.

    This is going to cost a fortune and may not flush out as many scared homies as intended. I think the cost will be considerably greater than the benefit.

    From my experience last night I'd say the opposite, there was barely a table free and we went to the same place the week before and there were almost no people there, just the two of us. The discount is definitely convincing people to go out and anecdotally restaurant owners are saying they have seen a surge in table bookings for the Monday-Wednesday period. These are people who may have been comfortable to go anyway, but it's given a needed push to get them in the door and spending money in a sector that badly needs it.
    We went out for tea at the local pub last night. It was very busy too. The food bill was cut by 50% and more than reasonable! I can see it getting us out a few more times in the coming month than I might have done otherwise.
    Trouble is, from the government`s point of view, they`ll end up getting criticism even though it is their scheme

    It`s for August only and I`ll bet that a few days prior to its end Starmer will call for it to be extended. If it is he`ll claim it`s down to his pressure and if it isn`t he`ll criticise the governement for "not supporting a struggling sector and withdrawing vital support". I can see it now.
    I don't think that we need a crystal ball for that one. Just like the rather absurd idea that the furlough scheme can be continued which we have already seen. The whole sector is a big employer of less skilled staff and the employment consequences of its inevitable contraction will be significant unfortunately.
    I am going to bite on this “less skilled staff” meme. Everyone thinks that holding a plate of food and putting it down on a table is easy and therefore running a cafe or restaurant or pub is easy and unskilled so who cares if such jobs are lost.

    It’s bollocks on stilts. In hospitality, every member of staff - front of house - is on show 100% of the time and every interaction with the public has to be pitch perfect because for the visitor the visit is a special occasion. For kitchen staff every meal, every drink has to be perfect too. Everything needs to be done on time, in a friendly way to make the experience pleasant and memorable and enjoyable. There is no downtime when you can hide in your office and grumble and stay away from clients. There are no calls with nuisance colleagues and clients where you can sound ok while rolling your eyes.

    Training staff to do this well every single day for hours at a time with all sorts of customers, some of whom can be demanding and rude and difficult, is not as easy as it seems.

    And this is just the end result. On top of this you have to manage all the administration, the planning of menus, the ordering, the tax, the VAT, the health and safety and all the other rules, assessing profit margins, working out your offering, keeping existing customers and attracting new ones, identifying new markets, coming up with ideas etc.

    Running any business is bloody hard work. In the last few months daughter has probably learnt more than most people do in some theoretical MBA course. To call this unskilled is ridiculous.

    It is much much harder than it looks to create a cafe or restaurant or pub that really works well - that has that undefinable atmosphere which draws people in and back - and every member of staff plays their part, both individually and as part of a team.

    I have been to lots of cafes in my time. I love the atmosphere and offering of good ones. But there are lots of indifferent ones, a testament to the truism that the real skill is in making something look easier than it is.

    Of course I am not going to pretend that it is like being a lawyer or scientist. But let’s face it, quite a lot of legal work can be pretty routine and unskilled and will be replicated by robots or computers. Making people feel welcomed and special, giving them a good time is also a skill and one that should not be quite so easily dismissed by those who have the luxury of working away from people most of the time.

    Bluntly, life is going to be pretty tough for our children. Any job will be worthwhile and we should perhaps try and instil a culture of trying to do every job, no matter how apparently menial or lowly, as well as possible. Because what is lowly and routine to you may mean a very great deal to the person on the receiving end. Let alone to the person to whom it brings income and the dignity of work.

    Rant over.

    And yes, the Half-price deal is helping. She is fully booked, despite the variable weather here.
    He said, and you quoted at first, "less skilled", not "unskilled". But I get what you mean. I guess it's used as short hand for a job you don't need a degree/formal qualification for?
    Years ago you didn’t need a degree to become an accountant or lawyer.
    TBH, I don't think that doing a degree in law was ever much use in my career.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    How can there be such a disparity between pollsters

    There were 17 polls in July. All bar one had the Tories between 41 and 44%, the 46% from YouGov was a high side outlier.
    The Labour share has been between 35 and 39%. I'm going to include the solitary 35% as it's been matched by this poll.

    So taking a fag packet aggregate we've got 42.5% for the Tories and 37% for Labour.

    44/35 is in line with that, this particular poll is good for the Tories but it's not outside the expected current range.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Which means they didn't look at the past performance of the pupils against historic expectations - at least Ofqual did that in theory..
    No they looked at the historic performance of the schools and showed no interest whatsoever in anything that the pupils being given the grade might have achieved.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    edited August 2020

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    ?! Sunday trading was allowed in Scotland. It was a purely English matter the SNP should not have got involved in.
    I don't think it was ever formally allowed in Scotland so much as never legislated against - no need thanks to huge social pressure from the churches - it only loosened up in the last years of the C20. A nice example of the paradox of assiming the existence or otherwise of a phenomenon from laws for or against it ...

    I have checked, and the reason for the vote on Sunday trading was that cross-border firms were trying to use it as a reason to change pay rates on Sundays and the unions in Scotland (that kind of union, the ones affiliated normally to Labour) asked the SNP to vote against because of that detriment. So it was never a purely English matter.

    The Western Isles still bans Sunday trading completely
    Not quite. You're thinking of the northern part - Lewis and Harris - not the southern part.
    His usual load of tripe re Scotland. You would think having made such a fool of himself over lack of knowledge that he would have learned by now to not try and pontificate when he has no clue what he is talking about.
    Your general point may stand, but thinking that Sunday trading is banned across the Western Isles when it is in fact only banned on Harris and Lewis is hardly the height of ignorance is it?
    Not really.

    The southern islands are very Catholic (roadside shrines and all, plus a 30ft high granite Madonna on South Uist) but oddly that isn't usually mentioned when talking about the culture of the Western Isles. I suppose that nearly half of the population is in Stornoway, which is definitely Wee Free.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The government certainly doesn't deserve to be so far ahead given their inept handling of the current crisis. I wonder why Starmer isn't cutting through with the public.
    Well, Starmer is up on the leadership ratings, and government approval down, so rather odd that Con shows as up. Some contradictory indicators methinks.
    I don't think it's too surprising. Labour don't look anything like ready for government. Sir Keir has made a good start (although he's a very poor speaker), but the rest of the team is invisible, the party is still riddled with factionalism, and there is zero policy development. Of course, this is a marathon, not a sprint, so there's plenty of time for them to build up from here.

    On the other side of the equation, the Brexit disaster hasn't happened yet, and whilst the Covid-19 response has been mixed, I expect that voters are aware that it was never going to be easy.
    Equally meanwhile, if they did have a plan then so far it seems that there have been no f*** ups or gaffes, perhaps knee notwithstanding although it was of a moment.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited August 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    These figures are not particularly good for the Democrats:

    "2020 vs 2016

    Top Battlegrounds: Biden+2.1 [2020: Dem+5.5, 2016: Dem+3.4]
    RCP National Average: Biden+0.8 [2020: Dem+7.4, 2016: Dem+6.6]
    Fav Ratings: Trump+4.3 [2020: Dem+11.0, 2016: Dem+15.3]"

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com

    You mean this is bad for democrats?
    1. Biden improving on Hillary by 2.1% in battlegrounds, when she lost the key ones by a whisker
    2. Biden having a 7.4% national lead (when the consensus is that he only needs 2% lead to win) and
    3. Trump on -11.5% approval

    Those figures you post are changes on 2016, not the current state.

    PS And as I have posted on here before, this is not an apples to apples comparison. Most pollsters have corrected for the under-representation of non-college-educated white workers that caused the problems with the 2016 results. So the 2020 polls should be friendlier to Trump than the 2016 results, meaning that the shift to Dems is larger than you post.
  • Pulpstar said:

    How can there be such a disparity between pollsters

    There were 17 polls in July. All bar one had the Tories between 41 and 44%, the 46% from YouGov was a high side outlier.
    The Labour share has been between 35 and 39%. I'm going to include the solitary 35% as it's been matched by this poll.

    So taking a fag packet aggregate we've got 42.5% for the Tories and 37% for Labour.

    44/35 is in line with that, this particular poll is good for the Tories but it's not outside the expected current range.
    Labour vote really seems quite stable between 36% to 38% bearing in mind Survation is UK not GB.

    Survation has a more solid Tory vote than Opinium and also weaker SNP.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    If we're talking useless degrees I'd like to put mine forwards. I've never once had any need for a Chemistry degree or my additional credits in physics. Other than existing to say "I went to university" nothing in my life has depended on my degree and I've worked in tech and banking.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    England in danger of failing to set a decent target here.

    An awful lot's riding on Willey and Rashid.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Which means they didn't look at the past performance of the pupils against historic expectations - at least Ofqual did that in theory..
    And at least OFQUAL are offering resits. Don't forget that very important difference as well.
    SQA should certainly allow those.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    ydoethur said:

    England in danger of failing to set a decent target here.

    An awful lot's riding on Willey and Rashid.

    They've almost certainly got enough already. But its getting a bit more interesting, no doubt about that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Which means they didn't look at the past performance of the pupils against historic expectations - at least Ofqual did that in theory..
    And at least OFQUAL are offering resits. Don't forget that very important difference as well.
    SQA should certainly allow those.
    I can't understand why they're not. However you look at it, this is an enormous cock-up. They've failed to get the initial system right, then failed to come up with a reasonable procedure for making changes, then announced that they have clobbered the poorest, and finally have effectively told people to lump it.

    With, unfortunately, very serious consequences.

    If this isn't taken to court, I will be amazed.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Which means they didn't look at the past performance of the pupils against historic expectations - at least Ofqual did that in theory..
    No they looked at the historic performance of the schools and showed no interest whatsoever in anything that the pupils being given the grade might have achieved.
    Which means they failed the students - there are 2 data sets which can be used:-

    1) past school results
    2) pupil's Standard results and the historic records of Higher results derived from those Standards

    The fact only the first dataset was used means there are going to be a complete shed load of inaccurate results which the use of the second data set would have caught and allowed at least some of them to be remedied.

    As I stated before the simple fact is that these results are going to show that the Exam Quangos are completely unsuitable for the job they have been tasked to do. That job is to keep results statistically accurate with other years and you have just shown that SQA have completely failed to do so by ignore at least half of the easily available data statistical data that could have been used to generate or at least justify the returned results.
  • Absolutely enormous explosion in Beirut Port area. Footage looks horrific.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    MaxPB said:

    If we're talking useless degrees I'd like to put mine forwards. I've never once had any need for a Chemistry degree or my additional credits in physics. Other than existing to say "I went to university" nothing in my life has depended on my degree and I've worked in tech and banking.

    The father of a young student going up to Balliol in 1919 to read engineering (yes, they offered engineering degrees) asked a friend of his what the prospects for a degree in engineering were.

    'I've never known one of them fail to succeed in life,' came the reply, 'but none of them have succeeded as engineers.'

    That young student was Nevil Norway. He did go on to build an airship and found his own aircraft manufacturing company. The airship made only one flight, and the aircraft company never showed a profit, although it was taken over by a rival and played a crucial role in the RAF in the Second World War.

    But Norway himself went on to become the highly celebrated novelist Nevil Shute.

    His dry comment on his father's friend; 'there was some truth in that.'
  • Pulpstar said:

    How can there be such a disparity between pollsters

    There were 17 polls in July. All bar one had the Tories between 41 and 44%, the 46% from YouGov was a high side outlier.
    The Labour share has been between 35 and 39%. I'm going to include the solitary 35% as it's been matched by this poll.

    So taking a fag packet aggregate we've got 42.5% for the Tories and 37% for Labour.

    44/35 is in line with that, this particular poll is good for the Tories but it's not outside the expected current range.
    I put little store on polls just now and expect at some time they will show parity, or even a labour lead, but with their majority HMG is not going anywhere for 4 years
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Absolutely enormous explosion in Beirut Port area. Footage looks horrific.

    I can only find photos of the smoke cloud, but it's enormous. If that took place anywhere where there were people...

    Any ideas of what's happened?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Absolutely enormous explosion in Beirut Port area. Footage looks horrific.

    The second one looks apocalyptic.

    https://twitter.com/cencio4/status/1290672986358534146?s=20
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Absolutely enormous explosion in Beirut Port area. Footage looks horrific.

    The second one looks apocalyptic.

    https://twitter.com/cencio4/status/1290672986358534146?s=20
    Bloody hell.

    That's going to be horrendous.

    What on earth was it? It doesn't look like a standard bomb. Fuel tanks going up?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2020
    bloody hell.

    Looks like an airstrike? On some kind of facility? Where's our resident fast jet pilot?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    MaxPB said:

    If we're talking useless degrees I'd like to put mine forwards. I've never once had any need for a Chemistry degree or my additional credits in physics. Other than existing to say "I went to university" nothing in my life has depended on my degree and I've worked in tech and banking.

    On the other hand, my degree has proven quite useful o:)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    ydoethur said:

    Absolutely enormous explosion in Beirut Port area. Footage looks horrific.

    I can only find photos of the smoke cloud, but it's enormous. If that took place anywhere where there were people...

    Any ideas of what's happened?
    It is a country with a terrible history of huge car/truck bombs.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    ydoethur said:

    Absolutely enormous explosion in Beirut Port area. Footage looks horrific.

    The second one looks apocalyptic.

    https://twitter.com/cencio4/status/1290672986358534146?s=20
    Bloody hell.

    That's going to be horrendous.

    What on earth was it? It doesn't look like a standard bomb. Fuel tanks going up?
    Fuel / air? Not sure I like the colour of the smoke.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Absolutely enormous explosion in Beirut Port area. Footage looks horrific.

    The second one looks apocalyptic.

    https://twitter.com/cencio4/status/1290672986358534146?s=20
    Wow what's going on there.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These figures are not particularly good for the Democrats:

    "2020 vs 2016

    Top Battlegrounds: Biden+2.1 [2020: Dem+5.5, 2016: Dem+3.4]
    RCP National Average: Biden+0.8 [2020: Dem+7.4, 2016: Dem+6.6]
    Fav Ratings: Trump+4.3 [2020: Dem+11.0, 2016: Dem+15.3]"

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com

    You mean this is bad for democrats?
    1. Biden improving on Hillary by 2.1% in battlegrounds, when she lost the key ones by a whisker
    2. Biden having a 7.4% national lead (when the consensus is that he only needs 2% lead to win) and
    3. Trump on -11.5% approval

    Those figures you post are changes on 2016, not the current state.

    PS And as I have posted on here before, this is not an apples to apples comparison. Most pollsters have corrected for the under-representation of non-college-educated white workers that caused the problems with the 2016 results. So the 2020 polls should be friendlier to Trump than the 2016 results, meaning that the shift to Dems is larger than you post.
    Biden also has loads more paths through the 6 identified battleground states.

    Florida and any other, PA and MI, 7 3 state combinations.
    Trump has 1 5 state combo and 8 4 state combos, all requiring Florida.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Some reports that it was the oil storage depot going up. Other that it is near the Hariri downtown residence
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    If we're talking useless degrees I'd like to put mine forwards. I've never once had any need for a Chemistry degree or my additional credits in physics. Other than existing to say "I went to university" nothing in my life has depended on my degree and I've worked in tech and banking.

    The father of a young student going up to Balliol in 1919 to read engineering (yes, they offered engineering degrees) asked a friend of his what the prospects for a degree in engineering were.

    'I've never known one of them fail to succeed in life,' came the reply, 'but none of them have succeeded as engineers.'

    That young student was Nevil Norway. He did go on to build an airship and found his own aircraft manufacturing company. The airship made only one flight, and the aircraft company never showed a profit, although it was taken over by a rival and played a crucial role in the RAF in the Second World War.

    But Norway himself went on to become the highly celebrated novelist Nevil Shute.

    His dry comment on his father's friend; 'there was some truth in that.'
    Ahem
    https://eng.ox.ac.uk/news/oxford-ranked-first-in-world-for-engineering/
  • TOPPING said:

    bloody hell.

    Looks like an airstrike? Where's our resident fast jet pilot?

    Watching Al Jazeera, who have reporters on the ground. No idea what has happened. Looks like more than one explosion, second one larger.

    People in Beirut on Twitter saying air strike, but it could be fuel explosion? Blastwave is huge, people miles away posting pics of their houses/offices with blown out windows.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    FPT:

    DavidL said:

    Happened as we feared. A boy who got the third equal top mark in the country in his National 5 in computing last year (98%) has been given a band 2 having got a band 1 in his prelim. Just ridiculous but I am not sure that there is anything we can do since he got an "A".

    This will adversely affect his Oxford application. It is bloody unfair.

    All to play for! I got in on the strength of my interview (half way through I thought, feck it, I'm not going to get in, so I'll give as good as I get), certainly not my entrance exam results - so with a bit of luck he'll get to interview - then it's up to him. I'd hope this year of all years the Universities will be taking exam awards with a pinch of salt.
    With all due respect, if said boy is doing computing, wtf is he doing applying to Oxford anyway?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Absolutely enormous explosion in Beirut Port area. Footage looks horrific.

    The second one looks apocalyptic.

    https://twitter.com/cencio4/status/1290672986358534146?s=20
    Bloody hell.

    That's going to be horrendous.

    What on earth was it? It doesn't look like a standard bomb. Fuel tanks going up?
    Fuel / air? Not sure I like the colour of the smoke.
    It looks very dark and oily, doesn't it?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited August 2020
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    If we're talking useless degrees I'd like to put mine forwards. I've never once had any need for a Chemistry degree or my additional credits in physics. Other than existing to say "I went to university" nothing in my life has depended on my degree and I've worked in tech and banking.

    On the other hand, my degree has proven quite useful o:)
    The wonders of picking a vocation!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    TOPPING said:

    bloody hell.

    Looks like an airstrike? Where's our resident fast jet pilot?

    Watching Al Jazeera, who have reporters on the ground. No idea what has happened. Looks like more than one explosion, second one larger.

    People in Beirut on Twitter saying air strike, but it could be fuel explosion? Blastwave is huge, people miles away posting pics of their houses/offices with blown out windows.
    It looks like a ship behind what appears to be a grain elevator. Perhaps a fuel tanker, or fertiliser?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Pulpstar said:

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These figures are not particularly good for the Democrats:

    "2020 vs 2016

    Top Battlegrounds: Biden+2.1 [2020: Dem+5.5, 2016: Dem+3.4]
    RCP National Average: Biden+0.8 [2020: Dem+7.4, 2016: Dem+6.6]
    Fav Ratings: Trump+4.3 [2020: Dem+11.0, 2016: Dem+15.3]"

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com

    You mean this is bad for democrats?
    1. Biden improving on Hillary by 2.1% in battlegrounds, when she lost the key ones by a whisker
    2. Biden having a 7.4% national lead (when the consensus is that he only needs 2% lead to win) and
    3. Trump on -11.5% approval

    Those figures you post are changes on 2016, not the current state.

    PS And as I have posted on here before, this is not an apples to apples comparison. Most pollsters have corrected for the under-representation of non-college-educated white workers that caused the problems with the 2016 results. So the 2020 polls should be friendlier to Trump than the 2016 results, meaning that the shift to Dems is larger than you post.
    Biden also has loads more paths through the 6 identified battleground states.

    Florida and any other, PA and MI, 7 3 state combinations.
    Trump has 1 5 state combo and 8 4 state combos, all requiring Florida.
    Just Arizona, PA, MI and MN would do it. All of those seem near inevitable.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    ?! Sunday trading was allowed in Scotland. It was a purely English matter the SNP should not have got involved in.
    I don't think it was ever formally allowed in Scotland so much as never legislated against - no need thanks to huge social pressure from the churches - it only loosened up in the last years of the C20. A nice example of the paradox of assiming the existence or otherwise of a phenomenon from laws for or against it ...

    I have checked, and the reason for the vote on Sunday trading was that cross-border firms were trying to use it as a reason to change pay rates on Sundays and the unions in Scotland (that kind of union, the ones affiliated normally to Labour) asked the SNP to vote against because of that detriment. So it was never a purely English matter.

    The Western Isles still bans Sunday trading completely
    Not quite. You're thinking of the northern part - Lewis and Harris - not the southern part.
    His usual load of tripe re Scotland. You would think having made such a fool of himself over lack of knowledge that he would have learned by now to not try and pontificate when he has no clue what he is talking about.
    Your general point may stand, but thinking that Sunday trading is banned across the Western Isles when it is in fact only banned on Harris and Lewis is hardly the height of ignorance is it?
    Not really.

    The southern islands are very Catholic (roadside shrines and all, plus a 30ft high granite Madonna on South Uist) but oddly that isn't usually mentioned when talking about the culture of the Western Isles. I suppose that nearly half of the population is in Stornoway, which is definitely Wee Free.

    Quite right, though there are several Free Kirks these days, to be even more pedantic.

    Very different Sunday philosophy - each to their own. I am not sure that i tis actually illegal to trade in L&H but the local philosophy is very much against it and the social pressure is there. Like Sundays in Lothian when I was a lad.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    DavidL said:

    Happened as we feared. A boy who got the third equal top mark in the country in his National 5 in computing last year (98%) has been given a band 2 having got a band 1 in his prelim. Just ridiculous but I am not sure that there is anything we can do since he got an "A".

    This will adversely affect his Oxford application. It is bloody unfair.

    All to play for! I got in on the strength of my interview (half way through I thought, feck it, I'm not going to get in, so I'll give as good as I get), certainly not my entrance exam results - so with a bit of luck he'll get to interview - then it's up to him. I'd hope this year of all years the Universities will be taking exam awards with a pinch of salt.
    With all due respect, if said boy is doing computing, wtf is he doing applying to Oxford anyway?
    He wants to do PPE by the sounds of others posts (wtf is to me entirely appropriate but for different reasons)..
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Thats a lot of people dead in Beirut for sure.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    bloody hell.

    Looks like an airstrike? Where's our resident fast jet pilot?

    Watching Al Jazeera, who have reporters on the ground. No idea what has happened. Looks like more than one explosion, second one larger.

    People in Beirut on Twitter saying air strike, but it could be fuel explosion? Blastwave is huge, people miles away posting pics of their houses/offices with blown out windows.
    It looks like a ship behind what appears to be a grain elevator. Perhaps a fuel tanker, or fertiliser?
    Fertilizer would make a lot of sense if it is not an airstrike (why and who?) or a terrorist/political attack.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Accidental? Hmm.

    I mean there is one perhaps only one actor that I can see doing this.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    ?! Sunday trading was allowed in Scotland. It was a purely English matter the SNP should not have got involved in.
    I don't think it was ever formally allowed in Scotland so much as never legislated against - no need thanks to huge social pressure from the churches - it only loosened up in the last years of the C20. A nice example of the paradox of assiming the existence or otherwise of a phenomenon from laws for or against it ...

    I have checked, and the reason for the vote on Sunday trading was that cross-border firms were trying to use it as a reason to change pay rates on Sundays and the unions in Scotland (that kind of union, the ones affiliated normally to Labour) asked the SNP to vote against because of that detriment. So it was never a purely English matter.

    The Western Isles still bans Sunday trading completely
    Not quite. You're thinking of the northern part - Lewis and Harris - not the southern part.
    His usual load of tripe re Scotland. You would think having made such a fool of himself over lack of knowledge that he would have learned by now to not try and pontificate when he has no clue what he is talking about.
    Your general point may stand, but thinking that Sunday trading is banned across the Western Isles when it is in fact only banned on Harris and Lewis is hardly the height of ignorance is it?
    Not really.

    The southern islands are very Catholic (roadside shrines and all, plus a 30ft high granite Madonna on South Uist) but oddly that isn't usually mentioned when talking about the culture of the Western Isles. I suppose that nearly half of the population is in Stornoway, which is definitely Wee Free.

    Quite right, though there are several Free Kirks these days, to be even more pedantic.

    Very different Sunday philosophy - each to their own. I am not sure that i tis actually illegal to trade in L&H but the local philosophy is very much against it and the social pressure is there. Like Sundays in Lothian when I was a lad.
    It's great to enhance all our understanding of these issues, but I still maintain that someone English who isn't a regular traveler to or resident of Scotland knowing the Western Isles have different Sunday trading laws from the rest of Scotland, ain't bad. I like Malcolm a lot, but any time someone gets something even vaguely wrong about Scotland he dusts down the same silly script. We're all learning and nobody is perfect.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    TOPPING said:

    Accidental? Hmm.

    I mean there is one perhaps only one actor that I can see doing this.

    If it's an accident, it's a hell of an unhappy coincidence.

    If it's the actor you have in mind, that's a surprise given how much disarray they're in at the moment. But equally, it might be distraction therapy.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    MaxPB said:

    If we're talking useless degrees I'd like to put mine forwards. I've never once had any need for a Chemistry degree or my additional credits in physics. Other than existing to say "I went to university" nothing in my life has depended on my degree and I've worked in tech and banking.

    I think this is a good thing overall!

    Having well trained chemists is important to the economy, borne out by the high level of funding in Chemistry PhD studentships from the private sector. Some students like you find the subject is not really their thing after all and they can go on to get decent jobs in "tech and banking". There will be some other students whose interest really takes off during ther undergrad degree. If universities insisted that all graduates get degree relevant jobs, then their intake would be much lower and reject some of those who go on to be career chemists.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707
    It could be something like the Buncefield explosion?
  • Thats a lot of people dead in Beirut for sure.

    There are several videos of the shockwave hitting, I really fear for the casualty numbers, buildings just disintegrating.

    CNN saying local state run media claiming fire in a fireworks factory is the cause.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Oh dear.

    If it wasn't such a large and tragic explosion that would leave them the butt of jokes for years.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    If we're talking useless degrees I'd like to put mine forwards. I've never once had any need for a Chemistry degree or my additional credits in physics. Other than existing to say "I went to university" nothing in my life has depended on my degree and I've worked in tech and banking.

    On the other hand, my degree has proven quite useful o:)
    The wonders of picking a vocation!
    Though I regard a degree as a transferable set of skills incorporating intellectual skills applicable to many jobs. On top of that, education is about personal development rather than purely an economic transaction.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Scott_xP said:
    Let's see this one make a thread head :)
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    UK poll parity soon, what do we think?

    Unlikely but Starmer does not need poll parity anyway, on the latest Opinium poll he will be PM with SNP and LD support even if the Tories have won a majority in England
    But you and your other Tory chums keep telling us that it's impossible for SKS to be PM with SNP support because your lot will whip up so much hysteria about the Scottish MPs being allowed to vote in the Commons about who the Government is.

    I thought that was rather the point of being a MP.
    It would be rather accepting a poisoned chalice for the SNP though. Being part of a UK Government and calling the shots. It rather undermines the whole point.
    Doesn't affect the basic point - that it is the Tories themselves who try and deny MPs from my country the right to take part in the Parliament to which theyt have been elected.

    Just think about that.

    What other category of MP will they try it on next?
    The problem is that while you, or @Big_G_NorthWales, have the power to vote in an MP who controls health, education etc in England, I don't have that power in England to vote on somebody who controls those matters for you.

    Yes, I know that there are indirect impacts, but that's not the point. You don't have to be a rabid English nationalist to see that as an issue.

    The correct solution is further devolution to England, but for practical reasons that's hard.

    The alternative is for Scottish and Welsh MPs to be very careful about what they vote on and why - for example, not buggering about with fox hunting - so as not to draw too much attention to it. Unfortunately, for their own reasons the SNP have taken exactly the opposite course.
    I beg to differ, politely. Barring votes with Barnett consequentials, the SNP already are pretty scrupulous. They do not vote on education in England, for instance. You'd hear screaming from the PB Tories on each and every occasion, as if theiue baw hairs were being indivbidually depilated with pliers. That silence is pretty revealing.

    It's the Unionist MPs in Scotland that do. As, infamously, the LD MPs in Scotland did - over student grants.
    It shouldn't be a matter of "pretty scrupulous". The Tory MPs do not vote on Scottish laws because they can't, not because of policy.

    Why were the Scottish MPs entitled to block changes to Sunday Trading laws in England?
    Common decency, and the cross-border effects. I forget the details, but there was a problem of this kind.

    ?! Sunday trading was allowed in Scotland. It was a purely English matter the SNP should not have got involved in.
    I don't think it was ever formally allowed in Scotland so much as never legislated against - no need thanks to huge social pressure from the churches - it only loosened up in the last years of the C20. A nice example of the paradox of assiming the existence or otherwise of a phenomenon from laws for or against it ...

    I have checked, and the reason for the vote on Sunday trading was that cross-border firms were trying to use it as a reason to change pay rates on Sundays and the unions in Scotland (that kind of union, the ones affiliated normally to Labour) asked the SNP to vote against because of that detriment. So it was never a purely English matter.

    The Western Isles still bans Sunday trading completely
    Not quite. You're thinking of the northern part - Lewis and Harris - not the southern part.
    His usual load of tripe re Scotland. You would think having made such a fool of himself over lack of knowledge that he would have learned by now to not try and pontificate when he has no clue what he is talking about.
    Your general point may stand, but thinking that Sunday trading is banned across the Western Isles when it is in fact only banned on Harris and Lewis is hardly the height of ignorance is it?
    Not really.

    The southern islands are very Catholic (roadside shrines and all, plus a 30ft high granite Madonna on South Uist) but oddly that isn't usually mentioned when talking about the culture of the Western Isles. I suppose that nearly half of the population is in Stornoway, which is definitely Wee Free.

    Quite right, though there are several Free Kirks these days, to be even more pedantic.

    Very different Sunday philosophy - each to their own. I am not sure that i tis actually illegal to trade in L&H but the local philosophy is very much against it and the social pressure is there. Like Sundays in Lothian when I was a lad.
    Yes, there always have to be a few splitters. :smile: I do like the idea of the bling free churches, though.

    You are right about it being normal (or near normal) everywhere in the past. We've changed, they haven't.



  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    It might actually be a firecracker warehouse.

    https://twitter.com/KyleKashuv/status/1290677103197925377?s=20
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    nico67 said:

    The Tories on 44% ! I wonder if there’s also a stupid virus going about aswell as Covid .

    I love it when the lefties start calling the voters stupid. Let me clue you up - they don't like it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Beirut blast is non nuclear, but you need a heck of a lot of TNT equivalence to get the mushroom cloud it briefly created I think
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    It may have been triggered by fireworks, but whatever went up was something altogether different.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020
    Looks like something from the first explosion/fire hit something sensitive - a fuel supply, or a fertiliser warehouse. And then it really went.

    What a dreadful explosion.
This discussion has been closed.