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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    eadric said:

    The devil and his demons have been commonly portrayed as dark since, what, the 11th century? Earlier?

    If these images are unacceptable that is an enormous amount of majestic art which will have to be cancelled.

    Including Michelangelo

    https://thatarthistorygirl.com/2017/09/12/michelangelos-hell/

    In alt right world the 11th & 16th centuries are the same as the 21st century? That explains a lot.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    HYUFD said:

    CatMan said:
    Would be the highest Democratic share of the white vote and the highest Republican share of the Hispanic vote since 2008 but also the highest Republican share of the black vote since 2004.
    There has been talk of the Democrats losing Hispanic voters to the Republicans for a number of months now. It is why I think Biden might be tempted to go for a Hispanic VP candidate.


  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    The rise of new taboos is pretty interesting. Academia is one battleground for the cultural conflict and we must add one more "contradiction under which Woke must collapse" the idea that any word has a fixed meaning and therefor must be banned which stands in contradiction to all current theories and practice across all academic disciplines.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    alterego said:

    eadric said:

    It's ok, it's not a black man, it's only the devil portrayed as a black man. Phew.

    https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1273592172735090689?s=20

    Imagine the strength of your excited erection if it had shown a tall noble Englishman treading on the pallid, freckly neck of another obese Scotsman

    Shame; I'm sorry you missed out.
    Ideally shouldn't he be ginger too?
    I thought it was big uniformed Orangemen that got him off?
    Spirit of Bumcree?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    https://twitter.com/ElectProject/status/1273693017162108930?s=19

    Important thread about US elections. If universities are closed then college student voter drives are fucked.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Moran tacking left, or trying to make her brand relevant to the LDs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/radical-proposals-in-lib-dem-policy-review-suggest-shift-to-the-left

    Another politician unwilling to ask if the German or French models of health care are worth copying.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    tlg86 said:
    Why would China want another Trump presidency when its led to a trade war which is only going to get worse after covid?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:
    Why would China want another Trump presidency when its led to a trade war which is only going to get worse after covid?
    Well quite, who knows what goes through Trump's mind?!
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Already posted but for some reason it looks clearer in a twitter post:

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1273714843984560128?s=20
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    tlg86 said:
    That doesn't matter. We will have articles all over the NY Times and the Atlantic claiming how soyabeans are a crucial strategic commodity and so Trump must be impeached. Hell, it could be dog biscuits for all they care.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    tlg86 said:
    Why would China want another Trump presidency when its led to a trade war which is only going to get worse after covid?
    Trump as President weakens America and causes a lot of damage to its alliances. For China, and Russia, he could hardly be better.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/ElectProject/status/1273693017162108930?s=19

    Important thread about US elections. If universities are closed then college student voter drives are fucked.

    Presumably students can still vote? If they are more dispersed it may not be worse, they may be more likely to influence older family etc and their vote is maybe more efficient as less racking up big safe seats in congress.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    edited June 2020
    And we are off!!!

    Joe Biden Begins First General Election TV Ad Blitz
    The $15 million advertising effort will target six fall battlegrounds, all states that President Trump carried in 2016.
    (NYTimes)

    Target states: Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida, Arizona and North Carolina.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    dr_spyn said:

    Moran tacking left, or trying to make her brand relevant to the LDs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/radical-proposals-in-lib-dem-policy-review-suggest-shift-to-the-left

    Another politician unwilling to ask if the German or French models of health care are worth copying.

    Do not copy the German way of financing the health care. It is a total mess.
    But do copy the health provision aspect of german health care
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    edited June 2020
    glw said:

    tlg86 said:
    Why would China want another Trump presidency when its led to a trade war which is only going to get worse after covid?
    Trump as President weakens America and causes a lot of damage to its alliances. For China, and Russia, he could hardly be better.
    For Russia absolutely, he couldnt be a better puppet (if he is one). Hence all the furore last time.

    For China, I dont think thats right, they have been fine with the status quo over the last couple of decades, with China getting stronger economically and politically throughout the period. Dont see why they want Trump.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    eadric said:

    At this rate any white western person with a functioning brain cell, and a sense of self respect, is going to be fleeing to Asia - Japan, Singapore, Thailand, South Korea: like Russian aristos fleeing pastel but Bolshevik St Petersburg, for the sanity of Paris and London

    Thailand for you, I guess? Old stamping ground and all that?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    For info, today there is not a single Covid positive patient in Winchester, Basingstoke or Andover Hospitals.

    82 Covid-19 positive inpatients in Leicester, plus 45 suspects, about half the numbers at the peak. I am unsure if they are equally unwell, or whether we are admitting at an earlier stage.
  • ComRes 4 pointer is HP territory
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    eadric said:


    Also, somewhat awkwardly, Islam. Good luck in cancelling Islam, guys

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iblis#/media/File:Adam_honored.jpg

    The proposed ban on incitement to “religious hatred” makes no sense unless it involves a ban on the Koran itself; and that would be pretty absurd, when you consider that the Bill's intention is to fight Islamophobia.

    - Boris in the Daily Telegraph, 21 July 2005
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020

    eadric said:

    At this rate any white western person with a functioning brain cell, and a sense of self respect, is going to be fleeing to Asia - Japan, Singapore, Thailand, South Korea: like Russian aristos fleeing pastel but Bolshevik St Petersburg, for the sanity of Paris and London

    Thailand for you, I guess? Old stamping ground and all that?
    I doubt Eastern Europe will tolerate BLM... can we have another referendum please?! I've got a blue eyed, blond haired son, he won't stand a chance in the UK
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020

    ComRes 4 pointer is HP territory

    Cracking open a bottle of the brown stuff to celebrate an opinion poll seems a bit OTT, but each to their own
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    :lol:

    The plan to bury the failed app news under the Vera announcement has failed.

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelena/status/1273719856802693120/photo/1
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Yet the plan to bury the app news has worked with BBC. That left wing lunatics campus that Cummings plans to reign in. Whereas right wing Mail.

    Lead on BBC 10 news: Vera.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    isam said:

    ComRes 4 pointer is HP territory

    Cracking open a bottle of the brown stuff to celebrate an opinion poll seems a bit OTT, but each to their own
    I preferred last night’s PB - talking about pubs - to tonight’s PB - talking about utterly meaningless opinion polls.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    dr_spyn said:

    Moran tacking left, or trying to make her brand relevant to the LDs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/radical-proposals-in-lib-dem-policy-review-suggest-shift-to-the-left

    Another politician unwilling to ask if the German or French models of health care are worth copying.

    To be accurate, this is NOT Moran's policy position in isolation. There are 40 or so contributions including from former leader Sir Vince Cable.

    It's seen as the 2020s version of the Orange Book which was a key part of some LD thinking in the period leading up to and during the Coalition period.

    Given at least half (and I think it may be two thirds) of the LD membership joined after 2015, it's useful for the Party to re-define itself in more current terms as well as doing some thinking about the challenges of the 2020s and beyond.

    It's possible this will begin the process of re-defining the LDs against Starmer's Labour party and mark a convergence between the two groups which will facilitate LD support (if required) for a minority Starmer Government after the next GE.

    As I no longer have any skin in the game to quote the Americanism, I question why the LDs are trying to crowd into what is looking like a busy centre-left field. There remains a space for a party in the centre or centre-right espousing sensible finances as well as environmentalism stressing technological ingenuity rather than eco-authoritarianism.

    As an antidote to the two high spending and high borrowing parties - the Liberal Unionists and the Social Democrats, a party advocating a more modest and sensible approach to public finance might have its adherents.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    isam said:

    ComRes 4 pointer is HP territory

    Cracking open a bottle of the brown stuff to celebrate an opinion poll seems a bit OTT, but each to their own
    I preferred last night’s PB - talking about pubs - to tonight’s PB - talking about utterly meaningless opinion polls.
    You never know - the government MIGHT provide some guidance on hospitality reopening tomorrow - and we can talk about that then

    Or maybe it won't
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    Foxy said:

    For info, today there is not a single Covid positive patient in Winchester, Basingstoke or Andover Hospitals.

    82 Covid-19 positive inpatients in Leicester, plus 45 suspects, about half the numbers at the peak. I am unsure if they are equally unwell, or whether we are admitting at an earlier stage.
    Do you know anything of the Leicestershire outbreak. Kirklees one has now been confirmed as another meat packing factory, which seems to be developing as a quite specific battle front now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    dr_spyn said:

    Moran tacking left, or trying to make her brand relevant to the LDs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/radical-proposals-in-lib-dem-policy-review-suggest-shift-to-the-left

    Another politician unwilling to ask if the German or French models of health care are worth copying.

    Though comandeering private hospitals for NHS operations is current government policy, and likely to be extended for another few months. Hardly left wing radicalism!

    As I pointed out in my header, who would have thought that a Conservative government would effectively ban private practice in medicine?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    dr_spyn said:

    Moran tacking left, or trying to make her brand relevant to the LDs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/radical-proposals-in-lib-dem-policy-review-suggest-shift-to-the-left

    Another politician unwilling to ask if the German or French models of health care are worth copying.

    Some of those "ideas" are interesting...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    At this rate any white western person with a functioning brain cell, and a sense of self respect, is going to be fleeing to Asia - Japan, Singapore, Thailand, South Korea: like Russian aristos fleeing pastel but Bolshevik St Petersburg, for the sanity of Paris and London

    Thailand for you, I guess? Old stamping ground and all that?
    Never been there. Hear its pleasant. Japan or Singapore for me.

    Failing that, Greece or Sri Lanka.

    I am sadly serious. I think the West (classically: the UK, France, America, Italy, perhaps Germany on good behaviour) is fucked. I want out.

    I will miss London, tho. Such a wondrous city, at its best: partly because it is genuinely racially harmonious, which is one thing which TRULY enrages me about BLM. They are importing American culture wars, which are poisonously divisive, into a society which was doing really quite well on racial harmony
    Cheerio
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Yet the plan to bury the app news has worked with BBC. That left wing lunatics campus that Cummings plans to reign in. Whereas right wing Mail.

    Lead on BBC 10 news: Vera.

    Rein in please.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Scott_xP said:
    Looks classy.
    Like Austin Powers' E-Type Jag?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Ave_it said:

    isam said:

    ComRes 4 pointer is HP territory

    Cracking open a bottle of the brown stuff to celebrate an opinion poll seems a bit OTT, but each to their own
    I preferred last night’s PB - talking about pubs - to tonight’s PB - talking about utterly meaningless opinion polls.
    You never know - the government MIGHT provide some guidance on hospitality reopening tomorrow - and we can talk about that then

    Or maybe it won't
    I’m not holding my breath. I had a tip off that it would come today. Total silence from government - and the clock is ticking.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Ave_it said:

    isam said:

    ComRes 4 pointer is HP territory

    Cracking open a bottle of the brown stuff to celebrate an opinion poll seems a bit OTT, but each to their own
    I preferred last night’s PB - talking about pubs - to tonight’s PB - talking about utterly meaningless opinion polls.
    You never know - the government MIGHT provide some guidance on hospitality reopening tomorrow - and we can talk about that then

    Or maybe it won't
    I’m not holding my breath. I had a tip off that it would come today. Total silence from government - and the clock is ticking.
    Today was use Vera to bury app news day.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    IshmaelZ said:

    Yet the plan to bury the app news has worked with BBC. That left wing lunatics campus that Cummings plans to reign in. Whereas right wing Mail.

    Lead on BBC 10 news: Vera.

    Rein in please.
    quite correct.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Scott_xP said:
    Looks classy.
    I really like the tailfin/fuselage design. The stuff near the doorway (to be seen in photos as bigwigs disembark) with the target etc. looks a bit pants. A coat of arms would be nice.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    For info, today there is not a single Covid positive patient in Winchester, Basingstoke or Andover Hospitals.

    82 Covid-19 positive inpatients in Leicester, plus 45 suspects, about half the numbers at the peak. I am unsure if they are equally unwell, or whether we are admitting at an earlier stage.
    Do you know anything of the Leicestershire outbreak. Kirklees one has now been confirmed as another meat packing factory, which seems to be developing as a quite specific battle front now.
    It is in Evington.

    Evington is a fairly middle class area, with significant Asian community, particularly Muslim. Quite a pleasant leafy bit of the city. Not obvious why.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Ave_it said:

    isam said:

    ComRes 4 pointer is HP territory

    Cracking open a bottle of the brown stuff to celebrate an opinion poll seems a bit OTT, but each to their own
    I preferred last night’s PB - talking about pubs - to tonight’s PB - talking about utterly meaningless opinion polls.
    You never know - the government MIGHT provide some guidance on hospitality reopening tomorrow - and we can talk about that then

    Or maybe it won't
    I’m not holding my breath. I had a tip off that it would come today. Total silence from government - and the clock is ticking.
    Today was use Vera to bury app news day.
    Don’t tell me you still watch BBC Ten? It’s garbage. Laura K is an achingly shit non-journalist and anyone with any news sense quit long, long ago.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Labour's new report.

    "Johnson’s clear and effective “get Brexit done” message convinced two million people who previously did not vote, the report found." (HuffPo)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    For info, today there is not a single Covid positive patient in Winchester, Basingstoke or Andover Hospitals.

    82 Covid-19 positive inpatients in Leicester, plus 45 suspects, about half the numbers at the peak. I am unsure if they are equally unwell, or whether we are admitting at an earlier stage.
    Do you know anything of the Leicestershire outbreak. Kirklees one has now been confirmed as another meat packing factory, which seems to be developing as a quite specific battle front now.
    Another?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    eadric said:

    Britain is down in 17th place in terms of new cases today.

    We were beaten by countries like Iraq. Bangladesh, Pakistan: countries with much less efficient testing, which suggests the virus is now stampeding around the world

    Sweden also had an ominous 1,481 new cases.

    India has hit a new peak in daily new cases.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    For info, today there is not a single Covid positive patient in Winchester, Basingstoke or Andover Hospitals.

    82 Covid-19 positive inpatients in Leicester, plus 45 suspects, about half the numbers at the peak. I am unsure if they are equally unwell, or whether we are admitting at an earlier stage.
    Do you know anything of the Leicestershire outbreak. Kirklees one has now been confirmed as another meat packing factory, which seems to be developing as a quite specific battle front now.
    It is in Evington.

    Evington is a fairly middle class area, with significant Asian community, particularly Muslim. Quite a pleasant leafy bit of the city. Not obvious why.
    Ramadan has been implicated with the resurgence in the Mid East
    I saw no crowds out in Evington for Eid or other nights of Ramadan. No meat packing in the area that I am aware of.

    I think that meat packing generates aerosol and that it lasts well on metal surfaces. Social distancing difficulties, noise requiring shouting, and a transient workforce all add to it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    Scott_xP said:
    Looks classy.
    Like Austin Powers' E-Type Jag?
    You forgot Austin Powers' jumbo jet, baby!

    image
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    For info, today there is not a single Covid positive patient in Winchester, Basingstoke or Andover Hospitals.

    82 Covid-19 positive inpatients in Leicester, plus 45 suspects, about half the numbers at the peak. I am unsure if they are equally unwell, or whether we are admitting at an earlier stage.
    Do you know anything of the Leicestershire outbreak. Kirklees one has now been confirmed as another meat packing factory, which seems to be developing as a quite specific battle front now.
    How many meat packing factories is that now?

    Hope there’s some forensic work going to to work out why these places seem to be hotbeds of infection - or is it something only tangentially related, like everyone living in cramped dormitories near the site?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/ElectProject/status/1273693017162108930?s=19

    Important thread about US elections. If universities are closed then college student voter drives are fucked.

    Presumably students can still vote? If they are more dispersed it may not be worse, they may be more likely to influence older family etc and their vote is maybe more efficient as less racking up big safe seats in congress.
    The thread points out that students vote at an equivalent rate to people in their early thirties, so at a higher rate than people in their early twenties. This is due to college oriented GOTV operations.

    With no colleges to focus GOTV for them college age kids turnout will (presumably) collapse.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    NEW THREAD

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    tlg86 said:
    Why would China want another Trump presidency when its led to a trade war which is only going to get worse after covid?
    The trade war is temporary and survivable, whereas the decline in US power, which constrains Chinese power, will last much longer.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    For info, today there is not a single Covid positive patient in Winchester, Basingstoke or Andover Hospitals.

    82 Covid-19 positive inpatients in Leicester, plus 45 suspects, about half the numbers at the peak. I am unsure if they are equally unwell, or whether we are admitting at an earlier stage.
    Do you know anything of the Leicestershire outbreak. Kirklees one has now been confirmed as another meat packing factory, which seems to be developing as a quite specific battle front now.
    It is in Evington.

    Evington is a fairly middle class area, with significant Asian community, particularly Muslim. Quite a pleasant leafy bit of the city. Not obvious why.
    Ramadan has been implicated with the resurgence in the Mid East
    The Eid holiday, at the end of Ramadan, was three weeks ago. It’s a plausible theory.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    This is interesting.

    “ Barnier has indicated a willingness to drop the demand that the UK continue to follow EU rules on state aid in perpetuity. He is also prepared to move position on the vital subject of fish. The EU had wanted the status quo to continue but there is now a growing acceptance that this isn’t realistic, even if the coastal member states are still reluctant to accept this. These small shifts show that the Commission now understands there must be genuine negotiation.”

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-a-brexit-deal-within-reach/amp?__twitter_impression=true

    If the LPF shift is genuine and not in name only then I can see a deal being done, at least an interim one that lays out a direction of travel. If it's not then we're still heading for no deal, aiui it's about the most red of red lines we have in the negotiation.
    I suspect enough of a fudge and long grass kicking will be achieved to sign something.

    Both sides want it.
    I think not even a fudge is good enough, it needs to be as genuine shift in the position to remove the self correcting mechanism. Again, both sides want a deal, but aiui the UK doesn't want one at that cost because it poisons the well for all other potential trade deals as other countries will begin to insist on similar self correcting clauses.
    The simplistic fudge I see is to have no self-correcting mechanism but for the EU to be able to add some tariffs [to be determined in the future] if the UK diverges.

    The UK gets to control its laws, the EU gets to say they've held firm but in reality there's zero tariffs, zero quotas and no alignment.

    Since the EU has a major trade surplus with the UK the tariffs will never realistically materialise.
    And neither will the divergence.

    Free. Free at last.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    dr_spyn said:

    Moran tacking left, or trying to make her brand relevant to the LDs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/radical-proposals-in-lib-dem-policy-review-suggest-shift-to-the-left

    Another politician unwilling to ask if the German or French models of health care are worth copying.

    Are you looking to copy the huge amount of extra money the German's spend on health?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Labour's new report.

    "Johnson’s clear and effective “get Brexit done” message convinced two million people who previously did not vote, the report found." (HuffPo)

    It was the Ignorami wot dun it for Boris.

    That rings true.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    isam said:

    ComRes 4 pointer is HP territory

    Cracking open a bottle of the brown stuff to celebrate an opinion poll seems a bit OTT, but each to their own
    It would anywhere but here. Here it seems important somehow.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    edited June 2020

    Labour has a “mountain to climb” if it is to get back into power, according to a major review of the 2019 general election defeat, which paints a picture of dysfunctionality, toxicity and drift inside the party’s election-fighting machine.

    Negative perceptions of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, doubts about the manifesto and the party’s ambivalent Brexit stance reinforced each other in a “snowballing” effect to deliver December’s catastrophic result, the 150-page report by the party group Labour Together argues.

    However, it was also the product of two decades of demographic and political change that hit the party’s traditional base, and could endanger more Labour seats in 2024.

    “Labour’s electoral coalition had been fracturing for a long time and was broken in 2019. We were rejected by many of the communities we were founded to represent,” says the report, seen by the Guardian. “We lost all types of voters everywhere compared with 2017, except in London.”

    Using interviews with senior party figures, as well as previously unpublished polling and new analysis, the report identifies significant shortcomings in the election campaign, which followed 18 months of debilitating parliamentary wrangles over Brexit.

    Key findings include:

    • Labour “went into the 2019 election without a clear strategy of which voters we needed to persuade or how”, and failed to settle on a coherent message with the power of 2017’s: “For the many, not the few”.

    • “It was unclear who was in charge” of the election campaign, and relationships were soured by years of infighting which had created a “toxic culture” and “significant strategic and operational dysfunction”.

    • Labour was outgunned by the Tories in the digital war, with messages poorly coordinated and most of them failing to reach beyond the party’s base.

    • Helped by their clear “Get Brexit done” message, the Conservatives succeeded in turning out 2 million previous non-voters, accounting for two thirds of the increase in their vote share.

    • Labour’s seat targeting was “unrealistic” and “not evidence-based”, and many candidates felt they did not receive enough support from the national party.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/dysfunctional-toxic-culture-led-to-labour-defeat-major-report-finds

    I also think Johnson touches a nerve with blue collar classes. Unfortunately Starmer doesn't, he appears superior and aloof. Johnson on the other hand comes across as an optimist who gets things done, someone who understands the fears and aspirations of people working hard to scratch a living. To me it is all smoke and mirrors. To hard working Britain it is real.

    If Coronavirus and Brexit do not bring the UK economy to its knees, and Johnson survives any scandals between now and 2024, he is on for another thumping victory.

    If the economy bombs, he doesn't win. If the economy bombs quickly and he is replaced, none of the potential candidates have the Johnson "magic". Raab, Sunak, Gove or Patel will not retain the red wall.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    kinabalu said:

    Labour's new report.

    "Johnson’s clear and effective “get Brexit done” message convinced two million people who previously did not vote, the report found." (HuffPo)

    It was the Ignorami wot dun it for Boris.

    That rings true.
    That is an attitude that if the Labour Party gillerati still believe to be true, will cost them the 2024 election.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    Labour's new report.

    "Johnson’s clear and effective “get Brexit done” message convinced two million people who previously did not vote, the report found." (HuffPo)

    It was the Ignorami wot dun it for Boris.

    That rings true.
    That is an attitude that if the Labour Party gillerati still believe to be true, will cost them the 2024 election.
    They can believe it but it mustn't show.

    Like Johnson and Cummings.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    Labour has a “mountain to climb” if it is to get back into power, according to a major review of the 2019 general election defeat, which paints a picture of dysfunctionality, toxicity and drift inside the party’s election-fighting machine.

    Negative perceptions of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, doubts about the manifesto and the party’s ambivalent Brexit stance reinforced each other in a “snowballing” effect to deliver December’s catastrophic result, the 150-page report by the party group Labour Together argues.

    However, it was also the product of two decades of demographic and political change that hit the party’s traditional base, and could endanger more Labour seats in 2024.

    “Labour’s electoral coalition had been fracturing for a long time and was broken in 2019. We were rejected by many of the communities we were founded to represent,” says the report, seen by the Guardian. “We lost all types of voters everywhere compared with 2017, except in London.”

    Using interviews with senior party figures, as well as previously unpublished polling and new analysis, the report identifies significant shortcomings in the election campaign, which followed 18 months of debilitating parliamentary wrangles over Brexit.

    Key findings include:

    • Labour “went into the 2019 election without a clear strategy of which voters we needed to persuade or how”, and failed to settle on a coherent message with the power of 2017’s: “For the many, not the few”.

    • “It was unclear who was in charge” of the election campaign, and relationships were soured by years of infighting which had created a “toxic culture” and “significant strategic and operational dysfunction”.

    • Labour was outgunned by the Tories in the digital war, with messages poorly coordinated and most of them failing to reach beyond the party’s base.

    • Helped by their clear “Get Brexit done” message, the Conservatives succeeded in turning out 2 million previous non-voters, accounting for two thirds of the increase in their vote share.

    • Labour’s seat targeting was “unrealistic” and “not evidence-based”, and many candidates felt they did not receive enough support from the national party.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/dysfunctional-toxic-culture-led-to-labour-defeat-major-report-finds

    We lost all types of voters everywhere compared with 2017, except in London.

    Labour did pretty badly in much of London as well.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    I will perhaps be a bit controversial here. (who me?? :) )

    I think Labour under Starmer has an excellent chance of winning the next election. I certainly don't want them to as personally I am not a fan and don't believe they will be good for the country. But Starmer is portraying himself (and may well be for all know) as a reasonable, centre left politician who can offer a real alternative to the Tories. Johnson is not a great leader or PM. I don't think he is even a very good leader or PM although I certainly don't think he is as bad as some make out.

    But in the end I think his problem is that he is just not that bright. At least politically. He can't recognise the things that reflect badly on his party. He has handled Covid poorly. If he had just been mediocre he would probably have come out of it well but he has made some really basic errors that were warned about and which have subsequently happened. Blind optimism and a harkening to a core vote will get you so far but it won't get you through 4 years of tough times if you lack the ability and determination to make things work.

    As I said before I want Cummings to succeed in his attempts to reshape our institutions. I thin given the chance a lot of that reshaping might even be in ways that those on the left might like, breaking the power of the old elites. But he won't succeed in it with Johnson as his figurehead.

    So I am already kind of resigned to Starmer winning in 2024. I know a lot can happen in 4 years - 'events dear boy' and all that - but I think you have to have the right person in place to take advantage of those 'events'. I just don't think that person is Johnson.
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