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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    dixiedean said:



    My understanding was that it started because his nickname was "Chariots Offiah", a nod to the 1981 film Chariots of Fire, due to his lightning speed.

    Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, then started whilst Offiah was playing as a nod to this nickname.

    So it was a song of respect. I don't think there's ever been anything malicious about it.

    But Martin Offiah never played for England in the proper version of rugby.

    So it has no real link with the English Rugby Union team.
    Why he never played for England at Union is another question.
    Apart from Jason Robinson not many rugby league players are good enough to play union.
    All the talk of Offiah and Robinson....Va'aiga Tuigamala.....better than Offiah...
    As a Wiganer...best of the lot was Ellery Hanley. Finest player I've ever seen bar none.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited June 2020

    I'd get rid of the Monarchy on principle but I understand I'm not in tune with 99% of the country so it is something I rarely bring up.

    20-25% of the country want to abolish the monarchy IIRC.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited June 2020
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    So you'd never curtsey or bow for the Queen?

    Good to have another republican on PB.
    I would bow (as I'm male), and unhesitatingly so. It's what she and her court expects. I think we owe a lot to QE2. I'd also fight to the death for Queen and country. (I might run away mind - a different issue)

    I would also vote for the abolition of the Monarchy.
    I’m intrigued. How do you fight to the death while running away?
    Intention vs actual performance. Sometimes I'm brave, sometimes I'm not.

    https://youtu.be/BZwuTo7zKM8
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mountbatten's name is mud in Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh.

    The view is his focus was on making the House of Windsor the House of Mountbatten, which is why he allowed his wife to get boffed by Nehru, rather than ensure a peaceful partition.

    Why would allowing his wife to do that, have that result?

    The fact that he bowled round the wicket does him no favours with a lot of people in those parts.
    That it caused a certain antipathy towards Nehru which led to the messy partition.
    No, I mean why would it make the HoW the HoM?
    Queen's 'tears' over Duke of Edinburgh's 'brutal' behaviour

    The Queen was reduced to tears by the Duke of Edinburgh’s “brutal” behaviour towards her when she refused to take his surname of Mountbatten, according to a new biography.

    Sally Bedell Smith even suggests that the ten-year delay between the births of the Princess Royal and the Duke of York was the result of “Philip’s anger over the Queen’s rejection of his family name”.

    Her book, Elizabeth the Queen, to be published in January, details the Duke’s deep-rooted irritation over the monarch’s decision to accept the advice of the then prime minister, Winston Churchill, by keeping the family name Windsor.

    The Duke had wanted the Royal family to be known as the House of Mountbatten when the Queen came to the throne in 1952, and complained to friends that: “I am the only man in the country not allowed to give his name to his children. I’m nothing but a bloody amoeba.”

    Earl Mountbatten, the Duke’s uncle and mentor, believed the “delay” in the couple having any more children after the Princess Royal was a result of the Duke’s anger over the question of the family name.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/queen-elizabeth-II/8931553/Queens-tears-over-Duke-of-Edinburghs-brutal-behaviour.html

    Churchill always believed it was Mountbatten's aim to turn it into the House of Windsor.
    The Queen has major bollocks.

    Maximum respect.
    This post is just so very YOU.

    I'm reaching the sad stage where I don't even have to look at names.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    So you'd never curtsey or bow for the Queen?

    Good to have another republican on PB.
    I would bow (as I'm male), and unhesitatingly so. It's what she and her court expects. I think we owe a lot to QE2. I'd also fight to the death for Queen and country. (I might run away mind - a different issue)

    I would also vote for the abolition of the Monarchy.
    I’m intrigued. How do you fight to the death while running away?
    The French do it sometimes, well the running away bit.
    Laval fought to the death, of course.

    That is, he fought against his own people and was put to death.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    Sadly Hague was the worst Tory leader since the Duke of Wellington, great orator though he may have been, plus Blair was still firmly occupying the centre ground in 2001
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    Sadly Hague was the worst Tory leader since the Duke of Wellington, great orator though he may have been, plus Blair was still firmly occupying the centre ground in 2001
    A little unfair to William. And in stumbled the Quiet Man and it got much, much worse.
    The Tories had a higher average poll rating under IDS than under Hague
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    I see cyberpunk game has been delayed again....the NHS tracking app might even be out before it as this rate.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    dixiedean said:



    My understanding was that it started because his nickname was "Chariots Offiah", a nod to the 1981 film Chariots of Fire, due to his lightning speed.

    Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, then started whilst Offiah was playing as a nod to this nickname.

    So it was a song of respect. I don't think there's ever been anything malicious about it.

    But Martin Offiah never played for England in the proper version of rugby.

    So it has no real link with the English Rugby Union team.
    Why he never played for England at Union is another question.
    Apart from Jason Robinson not many rugby league players are good enough to play union.
    In those days, Offiah would have walked into the English union team, had it abandoned its absurd stipulation on amateurism years earlier. By the time it jettisoned the upper-class fatties in 1996, Offiah was in the twilight of his career.

    Funnily enough I used to see him regularly - years ago I lived a few streets away from him in Ealing, where I assume he still lives.
    Except he played Union for years at Rosslyn Park. Yet never got picked...a mystery.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited June 2020
    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    The most likely thing is that the trends we saw at the last couple of elections will continue at the next election, which means the Tories are likely to lose seats like Chingford, Chipping Barnet, Kensington, and they'll struggle to win back Canterbury, Portsmouth South, Reading East, Cardiff North.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    So long as the taxpayer isn't paying up front in the event that it doesn't work.
    You can't have it both ways ... AstraZeneca have agreed to supply the vaccine pretty much world-wide, on a not-for-profit basis to combat the current pandemic. You can hardly expect them to also meet the actual cost of producing the cost of manufacturing the vaccine which is being paid for by the British and other governments. The alternative would be to spend many more months testing the vaccine to exhaustion until everyone was 100% satisfied that it was 100% effective, during which period possibly hundreds of thousands of additional deaths would occur. Is that really what you want?
    Well this site is called Political Betting after all.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    So you'd never curtsey or bow for the Queen?

    Good to have another republican on PB.
    I would bow (as I'm male), and unhesitatingly so. It's what she and her court expects. I think we owe a lot to QE2. I'd also fight to the death for Queen and country. (I might run away mind - a different issue)

    I would also vote for the abolition of the Monarchy.
    I’m intrigued. How do you fight to the death while running away?
    Intention vs actual performance. Sometimes I'm brave, sometimes I'm not.

    Flight or fight - you can't know how you'd react until it happens.

    I once interrupted a burglar in my own home. I'd been asleep in bed and was wearing nothing but my boxers while the burglar was carrying a large screwdriver that he'd broken in with (he'd plied open a kitchen window with a crash that had woken me up). Instinct took over and he ran away and I instinctively ran after him without even thinking. Who knows what would have happened had I caught up with him! Though managed to catch the reg plate he drove away in at least which helped lead to him being arrested and sentenced . . . to a suspended sentence and community service FFS.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    No, two completely separate things. In refusing to grovel he was absolutely right. It's the GoT remark which was the blooper.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    Sadly Hague was the worst Tory leader since the Duke of Wellington, great orator though he may have been, plus Blair was still firmly occupying the centre ground in 2001
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    Sadly Hague was the worst Tory leader since the Duke of Wellington, great orator though he may have been, plus Blair was still firmly occupying the centre ground in 2001
    A little unfair to William. And in stumbled the Quiet Man and it got much, much worse.
    The Tories had a higher average poll rating under IDS than under Hague
    I still stand by what I wrote.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    So you'd never curtsey or bow for the Queen?

    Good to have another republican on PB.
    I would bow (as I'm male), and unhesitatingly so. It's what she and her court expects. I think we owe a lot to QE2. I'd also fight to the death for Queen and country. (I might run away mind - a different issue)

    I would also vote for the abolition of the Monarchy.
    I’m intrigued. How do you fight to the death while running away?
    Intention vs actual performance. Sometimes I'm brave, sometimes I'm not.

    Flight or fight - you can't know how you'd react until it happens.

    I once interrupted a burglar in my own home. I'd been asleep in bed and was wearing nothing but my boxers while the burglar was carrying a large screwdriver that he'd broken in with (he'd plied open a kitchen window with a crash that had woken me up). Instinct took over and he ran away and I instinctively ran after him without even thinking. Who knows what would have happened had I caught up with him! Though managed to catch the reg plate he drove away in at least which helped lead to him being arrested and sentenced . . . to a suspended sentence and community service FFS.
    Perhaps the sight of you in boxer shorts had a sufficiently salutary moral effect?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    No, two completely separate things. In refusing to grovel he was absolutely right. It's the GoT remark which was the blooper.
    Agreed 100%

    In how you respond to a protest and what gestures you make I 100% agree should be a personal choice.

    To not even bother to educate yourself on one of the most basic news stories going on at the minute then to betray that ignorance with a pop culture reference - that is pathetic.

    Its really made me think awfully of Raab. He should be sacked, not for his choice but for his complete ignorance of what is going on.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    No, two completely separate things. In refusing to grovel he was absolutely right. It's the GoT remark which was the blooper.
    More of a boob really.

    Or perhaps, he was left exposed.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Andy_JS said:

    I'd get rid of the Monarchy on principle but I understand I'm not in tune with 99% of the country so it is something I rarely bring up.

    20-25% of the country want to abolish the monarchy IIRC.
    I am one of them.
    After this queen, who has done an excellent job.
    Can never agree that by birth one can be head of state, in a modern democracy.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Northern Ireland to introduce 1 metre distance when schools go back
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 435
    edited June 2020
    Re the Raab/Game of Thrones comment, the initial gesture was in fact to sit.

    Colin Kaepernick remained seated during the anthem during a preseason NFL game. After some outrage that this was supposedly an insult to veterans, and with the support of Green Beret (special ops in the US military) Nate Boyer, he switched to kneeling, and others followed his lead. It was clearly a more respectful gesture that still made the point. The change entirely failed to stop the hate directed at him.

    It makes me laugh, albeit hollowly, that the gesture is now being criticised as subservient. But I guess the purpose of the comment was to try to provoke outrage from the left, because, as was mentioned in the podcast, the Tories know that they benefit from this sort of stuff.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240
    edited June 2020

    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    No, two completely separate things. In refusing to grovel he was absolutely right. It's the GoT remark which was the blooper.
    Agreed 100%

    In how you respond to a protest and what gestures you make I 100% agree should be a personal choice.

    To not even bother to educate yourself on one of the most basic news stories going on at the minute then to betray that ignorance with a pop culture reference - that is pathetic.

    Its really made me think awfully of Raab. He should be sacked, not for his choice but for his complete ignorance of what is going on.
    Well quite. Let's consider the news agenda as it's played out today.

    1. President Macron visits London. World War II. Heroic memories. Friends with European Nations.
    2. Vera Lynn dies. Sad, but again echoes a braver and more united time.
    3. The government admits that their Covid app needs rethinking. Good from a "stopping digging when in a hole" point of view, and a polishable turd, just about. And maybe the plan was to sneak this out under cover of 1.
    4. The Foreign Secretary admits his ignorance of USA Current Affairs by linking them to a show where ladies don't wear many clothes.

    This really isn't four dimensional chess, is it?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    So you'd never curtsey or bow for the Queen?

    Good to have another republican on PB.
    I would bow (as I'm male), and unhesitatingly so. It's what she and her court expects. I think we owe a lot to QE2. I'd also fight to the death for Queen and country. (I might run away mind - a different issue)

    I would also vote for the abolition of the Monarchy.
    I’m intrigued. How do you fight to the death while running away?
    Intention vs actual performance. Sometimes I'm brave, sometimes I'm not.

    Flight or fight - you can't know how you'd react until it happens.

    I once interrupted a burglar in my own home. I'd been asleep in bed and was wearing nothing but my boxers while the burglar was carrying a large screwdriver that he'd broken in with (he'd plied open a kitchen window with a crash that had woken me up). Instinct took over and he ran away and I instinctively ran after him without even thinking. Who knows what would have happened had I caught up with him! Though managed to catch the reg plate he drove away in at least which helped lead to him being arrested and sentenced . . . to a suspended sentence and community service FFS.
    Quite

    I had a similar experience of tearing my feet to shreds on pavement when chasing a potential burglar in my underpants down a London street. I've also shivered in my bed in fear over the same event. I think I would have happily killed him if I had caught him though, so perhaps he should be the one shivering.

    If called upon (in any way) I think I would fight, but I'm far from sure.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    So you'd never curtsey or bow for the Queen?

    Good to have another republican on PB.
    I would bow (as I'm male), and unhesitatingly so. It's what she and her court expects. I think we owe a lot to QE2. I'd also fight to the death for Queen and country. (I might run away mind - a different issue)

    I would also vote for the abolition of the Monarchy.
    I’m intrigued. How do you fight to the death while running away?
    Scrapping with the Military Police as they arrest you for desertion?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    I remember the Tories canvassing Cowbridge High Street with the "save the pound" slogan. It was an uninspiring campaign and pathetic slogan. Ironically, had Hague won we probably wouldn't have arrived at the In, out, shake it all about referendum. I wish I'd voted for Hague!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    So you'd never curtsey or bow for the Queen?

    Good to have another republican on PB.
    I would bow (as I'm male), and unhesitatingly so. It's what she and her court expects. I think we owe a lot to QE2. I'd also fight to the death for Queen and country. (I might run away mind - a different issue)

    I would also vote for the abolition of the Monarchy.
    I’m intrigued. How do you fight to the death while running away?
    Scrapping with the Military Police as they arrest you for desertion?
    Ok, yes, logical.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    I see SKS is very much holding his own in the platitudinous shite line, to the point of actually typing plain wrong stuff.

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1273573392571158529?s=20
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    OT it looks like Betfair has suspended its chit-chat forum. No idea why.

    Also OT, with all this Covid-19 talk, I'm now seeing adverts on PB for courses at St George's medical school in sunny Tooting.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    I fear so -

    "Let the message ring out loud and clear to all corners of this green and pleasant land - my name is Dominic Raab and I kneel to no-one but the Queen."
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    I see SKS is very much holding his own in the platitudinous shite line, to the point of actually typing plain wrong stuff.

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1273573392571158529?s=20

    Alexa, play The White Cliffs of Dover.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited June 2020
    Yorkcity said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I'd get rid of the Monarchy on principle but I understand I'm not in tune with 99% of the country so it is something I rarely bring up.

    20-25% of the country want to abolish the monarchy IIRC.
    I am one of them.
    After this queen, who has done an excellent job.
    Can never agree that by birth one can be head of state, in a modern democracy.
    I'm open to abolishing it once the current monarch's reign is over, especially if other countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada decide to do so.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I see cyberpunk game has been delayed again....the NHS tracking app might even be out before it as this rate.

    I don't know if anyone else here has played it but Factorio have brought forward their 1.0 release leaving Early Access because the game is complete and they wanted to avoid their release date clashing with Cyberpunk. If anyone is interested Factorio is a great game and I'd highly recommend it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
    Gentle sarcasm to troll a poster with a particular obsession about EMU clearly doesn’t work...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2020
    Raab probably did trivialise BLM, but then they expect their agenda to be
    implemented in the near future, with no recourse whatever to democratic process.

    They don;t even hold any council seats in Britain or America, which perhaps tells us something about how their agenda might go down in black or white areas of both

    They have no democratic base or popular support whatsoever.

    They deserve to be trivialised. They deserve to be mocked. They deserve to be scorned, and in truth they deserve to be ignored.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I'd get rid of the Monarchy on principle but I understand I'm not in tune with 99% of the country so it is something I rarely bring up.

    20-25% of the country want to abolish the monarchy IIRC.
    I am one of them.
    After this queen, who has done an excellent job.
    Can never agree that by birth one can be head of state, in a modern democracy.
    I'm open to abolishing it once the current monarch's reign is over, especially if other countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada decide to do so.
    Agreed. The issue is closed during this monarch's reign but afterwards it should be abolished.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
    Especially as it would have been Blair v Thatcher.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
    Yes the government is forever being ripped off by the private sector.

    PFI was a gravy train for example.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    I see SKS is very much holding his own in the platitudinous shite line, to the point of actually typing plain wrong stuff.

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1273573392571158529?s=20

    He is taking NO chances with those Red Wallers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
    Yes the government is forever being ripped off by the private sector.

    PFI was a gravy train for example.
    ‘Was?!!!’
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    I fear so -

    "Let the message ring out loud and clear to all corners of this green and pleasant land - my name is Dominic Raab and I kneel to no-one but the Queen."
    And the wife.
    And dear Vera if she was still with us.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    No, two completely separate things. In refusing to grovel he was absolutely right. It's the GoT remark which was the blooper.
    Exactly.

    Or - as we now think - the dog whistle.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
    Yes the government is forever being ripped off by the private sector.

    PFI was a gravy train for example.
    ‘Was?!!!’
    As you might accompany on your splendid organ:

    Was in the beginning
    Is now
    And evermore shall be
    World without end, Amen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
    Especially as it would have been Blair v Thatcher.
    That would have been an interesting match up.

    The hard right warmonger who won three elections and was toppled by a Chancellor whom everyone mocked.

    And on the other side, Margaret Thatcher.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
    Yes the government is forever being ripped off by the private sector.

    PFI was a gravy train for example.
    Good scheme - raise private finance but manage the money in the public sector. Oh, no - stupid. I think it's very hard to underestimate how daft, and how costly. this idea was.

  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.
    I think he was, and that he wasn't seeking to offend anybody either. But saying something that is so obviously going to be widely misinterpreted isn't good in a Foreign Secretary or other leader, and as for the cultural reference he reached for - sheesh!! Viewers of Rape Game of Rape Thrones (source) tend to see those who have read the books on which the show is based as poncy intellectuals...books that are aimed at an audience with a reading age of 11. (Source: the SMOG readability test. Count how many polysyllables - defined as words of more than two syllables! - there are in an average 30 sentences. Did you "discover" what he "predicted"? Right, that's two polysyllables. Make sure there are no more than another two in the next 29 sentences or else the text will be too tough.)



  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
    Especially as it would have been Blair v Thatcher.
    That would have been an interesting match up.

    The hard right warmonger who won three elections and was toppled by a Chancellor whom everyone mocked.

    And on the other side, Margaret Thatcher.
    Boom boom (and bust).
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Northern Ireland to introduce 1 metre distance when schools go back

    Non-essential shops expected to open in Wales Mon 22 June

    Subject to confirmation from Drakeford tomorrow
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53090891
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
    Especially as it would have been Blair v Thatcher.
    That would have been an interesting match up.

    The hard right warmonger who won three elections and was toppled by a Chancellor whom everyone mocked.

    And on the other side, Margaret Thatcher.
    Boom boom (and bust).
    No more!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
    ...
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
    Especially as it would have been Blair v Thatcher.
    That would have been an interesting match up.

    The hard right warmonger who won three elections and was toppled by a Chancellor whom everyone mocked.

    And on the other side, Margaret Thatcher.
    I shouted a very similar punchline to that at Jim Murphy when he was telling a story comparing Blair with someone, might have been John Major, at a Matt Forde Political Party gig, and he didn't take kindly to it.

    It's on this show somewhere

    https://soundcloud.com/thepoliticalparty/show-26-jim-murphy
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
    Especially as it would have been Blair v Thatcher.
    That would have been an interesting match up.

    The hard right warmonger who won three elections and was toppled by a Chancellor whom everyone mocked.

    And on the other side, Margaret Thatcher.
    Boom boom (and bust).
    No more!
    Are you afraid of a pun on the pound?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
    Yes the government is forever being ripped off by the private sector.

    PFI was a gravy train for example.
    ‘Was?!!!’
    Well yes - but the contracts were long so "is" works too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    In 1997 you were led by a competent Prime Minister. In 2001, you had an end-of-the-pier Keep the Pound clown show.
    At risk of sounding like a a Corbynista - he won that argument.
    Hardly it was Brown and Ed Balls with their five tests.
    Without that Blair might have won a referendum at his height of popularity.
    Especially as it would have been Blair v Thatcher.
    That would have been an interesting match up.

    The hard right warmonger who won three elections and was toppled by a Chancellor whom everyone mocked.

    And on the other side, Margaret Thatcher.
    Boom boom (and bust).
    No more!
    Are you afraid of a pun on the pound?
    Too many puns and they become debased currency.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    Surrey said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.
    I think he was, and that he wasn't seeking to offend anybody either. But saying something that is so obviously going to be widely misinterpreted isn't good in a Foreign Secretary or other leader, and as for the cultural reference he reached for - sheesh!! Viewers of Rape Game of Rape Thrones (source) tend to see those who have read the books on which the show is based as poncy intellectuals...books that are aimed at an audience with a reading age of 11. (Source: the SMOG readability test. Count how many polysyllables - meaning words of more than two syllables! - there are in an average 30 sentences. Did you "discover" what he "predicted"? Right, that's two polysyllables. Make sure there are no more than another two in the next 29 sentences or else the text will be too tough.)



    I had really quite thought that I might get more from the GoT novels as I aged and got wiser.

    I think I have really now got on top of Dickens - just wonderful. I'm not sure I have entirely with GoT. I feel there's more there. It's not quite Patrick O'Brian stuff mind you - I will re-read him to my dieing day.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1273665659965181954

    Aghhh!! I can't stand it. The hope. Keep the hope away from me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mountbatten's name is mud in Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh.

    The view is his focus was on making the House of Windsor the House of Mountbatten, which is why he allowed his wife to get boffed by Nehru, rather than ensure a peaceful partition.

    Why would allowing his wife to do that, have that result?

    The fact that he bowled round the wicket does him no favours with a lot of people in those parts.
    That it caused a certain antipathy towards Nehru which led to the messy partition.
    No, I mean why would it make the HoW the HoM?
    Queen's 'tears' over Duke of Edinburgh's 'brutal' behaviour

    The Queen was reduced to tears by the Duke of Edinburgh’s “brutal” behaviour towards her when she refused to take his surname of Mountbatten, according to a new biography.

    Sally Bedell Smith even suggests that the ten-year delay between the births of the Princess Royal and the Duke of York was the result of “Philip’s anger over the Queen’s rejection of his family name”.

    Her book, Elizabeth the Queen, to be published in January, details the Duke’s deep-rooted irritation over the monarch’s decision to accept the advice of the then prime minister, Winston Churchill, by keeping the family name Windsor.

    The Duke had wanted the Royal family to be known as the House of Mountbatten when the Queen came to the throne in 1952, and complained to friends that: “I am the only man in the country not allowed to give his name to his children. I’m nothing but a bloody amoeba.”

    Earl Mountbatten, the Duke’s uncle and mentor, believed the “delay” in the couple having any more children after the Princess Royal was a result of the Duke’s anger over the question of the family name.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/queen-elizabeth-II/8931553/Queens-tears-over-Duke-of-Edinburghs-brutal-behaviour.html

    Churchill always believed it was Mountbatten's aim to turn it into the House of Windsor.
    The Queen has major bollocks.

    Maximum respect.
    This post is just so very YOU.

    I'm reaching the sad stage where I don't even have to look at names.
    Love and kisses xxx
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OllyT said:

    Spoke to a few red-wall-esque Northumberland Tories yesterday. They think the Government is completely clueless and shambolic. That doesn't mean they would vote for Starmer's Labour, but it certainly makes it more likely.

    The Tories are going to have a hell of a job hanging on to both the red-wall voters as well as the traditional Tory shire voters.
    Depends which bit of the "red wall" you mean. Bassetlaw where I live now is virtually indistinguishable from plenty of traditional rural Tory seats, only the coal mining link, and it was a very very strong link for ages, meant it continually voted Labour. It'll be Tory forever now, or damned near enough. It's probably the most vivd example of this sort of seat with places such as Blackpool South right at the other end of the scale (Slightly Deprived, urban northern town) far easier for Labour to take back.
    Why will Bassetlaw remain Tory simply because it shifted massively to them in 2019? If it can swing so quickly , it can swing again!
    You sound like plenty of Tories between June 1997 and early 2001.
    Those were dark days.
    Even darker after 2001.

    I thought we’d never win again.
    Aye, you could understand a Labour majority of 179 in 1997, a Labour majority of 167 in 2001 was just mystifying to me.
    A near 2% swing to the Conservatives produced almost no change in seats.

    The change in incumbancy in marginals had a big effect.

    Its possible that might happen again in 2024.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Evening all :)

    Dame Vera Lynn was born in East Ham but the road named after her is in Forest Gate which is E7 (East Ham is E6). She lived in Thackeray Road as a child and in Ladysmith Avenue from 1921 to 1938.

    Those roads form part of the Central Park Estate and as a clue to when they were constructed between the two roads there is a Mafeking Avenue and a Kimberley Avenue.

    On the "taking the knee" business, I wonder if Raab and others are confusing this with the act of paying homage which dates back to feudal times and was your recognition of servitude to your liege lord (in all honesty, your owner).

    The act of homage involved kneeling with BOTH knees on the ground and offering your joined hands to your lord who would take them as a gesture marking your subjugation. It was never about full prostration or kneeling with one knee.

    Apart from the logistical issue of whether I could get up again would I take the knee? Yes, I probably would. A recognition of past inhumanity and mistakes made, perhaps, a commitment to making things better in the present and future certainly.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    kicorse said:

    Re the Raab/Game of Thrones comment, the initial gesture was in fact to sit.

    Colin Kaepernick remained seated during the anthem during a preseason NFL game. After some outrage that this was supposedly an insult to veterans, and with the support of Green Beret (special ops in the US military) Nate Boyer, he switched to kneeling, and others followed his lead. It was clearly a more respectful gesture that still made the point. The change entirely failed to stop the hate directed at him.

    It makes me laugh, albeit hollowly, that the gesture is now being criticised as subservient. But I guess the purpose of the comment was to try to provoke outrage from the left, because, as was mentioned in the podcast, the Tories know that they benefit from this sort of stuff.

    Many black Americans also see it as indicating subservience in the context of white police officers and officials and believe it hinders rather than advances their cause.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020

    Raab probably did trivialise BLM, but then they expect their agenda to be
    implemented in the near future, with no recourse whatever to democratic process.

    They don;t even hold any council seats in Britain or America, which perhaps tells us something about how their agenda might go down in black or white areas of both

    They have no democratic base or popular support whatsoever.

    They deserve to be trivialised. They deserve to be mocked. They deserve to be scorned, and in truth they deserve to be ignored.

    You are a bit of a boyo, aren't you.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488
    Andy_JS said:

    I'd get rid of the Monarchy on principle but I understand I'm not in tune with 99% of the country so it is something I rarely bring up.

    20-25% of the country want to abolish the monarchy IIRC.
    And they are heavily overrepresented on here, where it feels like 50%+ at times.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
    Yes the government is forever being ripped off by the private sector.

    PFI was a gravy train for example.
    The private sector getting revenge for taxation.

    The question is why does government continually get done over.

    Assuming no corruption is involved I would say its the usual case of government thinking itself clever than it is.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2020
    Foxy said:

    Fishing said:


    Mountbatten and his colleagues on the spot deserve the blame, not the Government in London. But he was very good at dodging responsibility. One of those repeated public sector failures who are promoted again and again that Cyclefree highlighted the other day.

    We should have used air power to pacify the bands of murderous men and deployed a hugely enlarged army before Partition. It would not have stopped bloodshed completely, but it probably would have saved most of the million lives. But we didn't, and a million or more died.

    No, Attlee was to blame. The buck stopped with him.

    Your second paragraph is quite right, though. The Labour government wasn't in the least bit interested in the practicalities of the timetable or the reality on the ground, they just wanted to be rid of India in a tearing hurry for ideological reasons (and to suck up to the US, ironically).
    On the contrary Attlee was very interested in Indian self determination, from his early visit there as part of a commission on the subject.

    By 1947 Indian independence was unstoppable, and gathering momentum. The only question was how quickly and gracefully we left. Stopping the intercommunal violence by the military was not viable, and as most regiments were sectarian, a significant risk of losing all discipline and joining in.
    In other words, Attlee was a Labour prime minister, so by definition must have been entirely blameless for the hundreds of thousands of deaths caused directly by his government's handling of independence.

    That's the truth, isn't it? Had it been Boris Johnson as PM in charge of a mess directly causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and countless numbers of displaced families, I rather think your verdict would have been spectacularly different.

    [I don't deny that he was interested in Indian self-determination. Of course he was - that was the ideological bit I referred to. It was the realities he didn't seem very interested in.]
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702

    Raab probably did trivialise BLM, but then they expect their agenda to be
    implemented in the near future, with no recourse whatever to democratic process.

    They don;t even hold any council seats in Britain or America, which perhaps tells us something about how their agenda might go down in black or white areas of both

    They have no democratic base or popular support whatsoever.

    They deserve to be trivialised. They deserve to be mocked. They deserve to be scorned, and in truth they deserve to be ignored.

    Sure captain fruitloops.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    A near 2% swing to the Conservatives produced almost no change in seats.

    The change in incumbancy in marginals had a big effect.

    Its possible that might happen again in 2024.

    In some seats, the Conservatives did worse in 2001 than in 1997. A few gains from Labour (Romford and Upminster to name two) were offset by losses to the Liberal Democrats such as Dorset North, Guildford and Teignbridge.

    Turnout was well down at 59% so you might have expected the more reliable Conservative vote (especially among the elderly) to have done more but the Conservatives lost 1.3 million votes on 1997.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488

    kicorse said:

    Re the Raab/Game of Thrones comment, the initial gesture was in fact to sit.

    Colin Kaepernick remained seated during the anthem during a preseason NFL game. After some outrage that this was supposedly an insult to veterans, and with the support of Green Beret (special ops in the US military) Nate Boyer, he switched to kneeling, and others followed his lead. It was clearly a more respectful gesture that still made the point. The change entirely failed to stop the hate directed at him.

    It makes me laugh, albeit hollowly, that the gesture is now being criticised as subservient. But I guess the purpose of the comment was to try to provoke outrage from the left, because, as was mentioned in the podcast, the Tories know that they benefit from this sort of stuff.

    Many black Americans also see it as indicating subservience in the context of white police officers and officials and believe it hinders rather than advances their cause.
    Indeed. It isn't helpful and choosing not to do it shouldn't be a sign of implicit racism.

    I wouldn't. But I would be happy to walk arm in arm with protestors.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Foxy said:

    Fishing said:


    Mountbatten and his colleagues on the spot deserve the blame, not the Government in London. But he was very good at dodging responsibility. One of those repeated public sector failures who are promoted again and again that Cyclefree highlighted the other day.

    We should have used air power to pacify the bands of murderous men and deployed a hugely enlarged army before Partition. It would not have stopped bloodshed completely, but it probably would have saved most of the million lives. But we didn't, and a million or more died.

    No, Attlee was to blame. The buck stopped with him.

    Your second paragraph is quite right, though. The Labour government wasn't in the least bit interested in the practicalities of the timetable or the reality on the ground, they just wanted to be rid of India in a tearing hurry for ideological reasons (and to suck up to the US, ironically).
    On the contrary Attlee was very interested in Indian self determination, from his early visit there as part of a commission on the subject.

    By 1947 Indian independence was unstoppable, and gathering momentum. The only question was how quickly and gracefully we left. Stopping the intercommunal violence by the military was not viable, and as most regiments were sectarian, a significant risk of losing all discipline and joining in.

    That's the truth, isn't it? Had it been Boris Johnson in charge of a mess directly causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and countless numbers of displaced families, I rather think your verdict would have been spectacularly different.
    No comment
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I assume he actually said the N word at the meeting, instead of saying "N word".
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited June 2020
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I read elsewhere the issue is that he used the unabridged N word, rather than saying 'the N word' when admitting the cat's name.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    stodge said:


    A near 2% swing to the Conservatives produced almost no change in seats.

    The change in incumbancy in marginals had a big effect.

    Its possible that might happen again in 2024.

    In some seats, the Conservatives did worse in 2001 than in 1997. A few gains from Labour (Romford and Upminster to name two) were offset by losses to the Liberal Democrats such as Dorset North, Guildford and Teignbridge.

    Turnout was well down at 59% so you might have expected the more reliable Conservative vote (especially among the elderly) to have done more but the Conservatives lost 1.3 million votes on 1997.
    Which was something which surprised me at the time - I assumed that anyone who voted Conservative in 1997 would do so again and that the Conservatives would also pick up most of the Referendum party vote of 1997.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited June 2020

    kicorse said:

    Re the Raab/Game of Thrones comment, the initial gesture was in fact to sit.

    Colin Kaepernick remained seated during the anthem during a preseason NFL game. After some outrage that this was supposedly an insult to veterans, and with the support of Green Beret (special ops in the US military) Nate Boyer, he switched to kneeling, and others followed his lead. It was clearly a more respectful gesture that still made the point. The change entirely failed to stop the hate directed at him.

    It makes me laugh, albeit hollowly, that the gesture is now being criticised as subservient. But I guess the purpose of the comment was to try to provoke outrage from the left, because, as was mentioned in the podcast, the Tories know that they benefit from this sort of stuff.

    Many black Americans also see it as indicating subservience in the context of white police officers and officials and believe it hinders rather than advances their cause.
    Indeed. It isn't helpful and choosing not to do it shouldn't be a sign of implicit racism.

    I wouldn't. But I would be happy to walk arm in arm with protestors.
    Really? Given what you might catch these days?
    Was the GoT remark meant to deadcat this? So hard to tell with this government.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I read elsewhere the issue is that he used the unabridged N word, rather than saying 'the N word' when admitting the cat's name.
    Is saying the word illegal? It wasn't even used in a derogatory context.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
    Yes the government is forever being ripped off by the private sector.

    PFI was a gravy train for example.
    The private sector getting revenge for taxation.

    The question is why does government continually get done over.

    Assuming no corruption is involved I would say its the usual case of government thinking itself clever than it is.
    Government appears to be terribly under-skilled when it comes to both negotiating and managing these contracts.

    A cynic might say that they don’t really care what the project actually ends up costing, but only how much they can get the cost off today’s books in into a future govment’s nightmares.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I read elsewhere the issue is that he used the unabridged N word, rather than saying 'the N word' when admitting the cat's name.
    Is saying the word illegal? It wasn't even used in a derogatory context.
    Someone should tell Dave Chapelle. He used it dozens of times in his latest special.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I read elsewhere the issue is that he used the unabridged N word, rather than saying 'the N word' when admitting the cat's name.
    Is saying the word illegal? It wasn't even used in a derogatory context.
    If you're white, then unless you're an actor playing a racist, I don't think it's wise to ever say that particular word.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I read elsewhere the issue is that he used the unabridged N word, rather than saying 'the N word' when admitting the cat's name.
    Is saying the word illegal? It wasn't even used in a derogatory context.
    Well this case is an interesting precedent

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/04/man-cleared-racial-abuse-endearment
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    IshmaelZ said:

    kicorse said:

    Re the Raab/Game of Thrones comment, the initial gesture was in fact to sit.

    Colin Kaepernick remained seated during the anthem during a preseason NFL game. After some outrage that this was supposedly an insult to veterans, and with the support of Green Beret (special ops in the US military) Nate Boyer, he switched to kneeling, and others followed his lead. It was clearly a more respectful gesture that still made the point. The change entirely failed to stop the hate directed at him.

    It makes me laugh, albeit hollowly, that the gesture is now being criticised as subservient. But I guess the purpose of the comment was to try to provoke outrage from the left, because, as was mentioned in the podcast, the Tories know that they benefit from this sort of stuff.

    Many black Americans also see it as indicating subservience in the context of white police officers and officials and believe it hinders rather than advances their cause.
    Indeed. It isn't helpful and choosing not to do it shouldn't be a sign of implicit racism.

    I wouldn't. But I would be happy to walk arm in arm with protestors.
    Really? Given what you might catch these days?
    Was the GoT remark meant to deadcat this? So hard to tell with this government.
    Can someone explain to me how Dominic Raab thinking that the kneeling is like something from Game of Thrones is so incendiary? I don't watch Game of Thrones - decided it wasn't worth watching in series one when the princess woman laid a dragon.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I read elsewhere the issue is that he used the unabridged N word, rather than saying 'the N word' when admitting the cat's name.
    Is saying the word illegal? It wasn't even used in a derogatory context.
    No, but without doubt it is career limiting in the 21st century.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    IshmaelZ said:

    kicorse said:

    Re the Raab/Game of Thrones comment, the initial gesture was in fact to sit.

    Colin Kaepernick remained seated during the anthem during a preseason NFL game. After some outrage that this was supposedly an insult to veterans, and with the support of Green Beret (special ops in the US military) Nate Boyer, he switched to kneeling, and others followed his lead. It was clearly a more respectful gesture that still made the point. The change entirely failed to stop the hate directed at him.

    It makes me laugh, albeit hollowly, that the gesture is now being criticised as subservient. But I guess the purpose of the comment was to try to provoke outrage from the left, because, as was mentioned in the podcast, the Tories know that they benefit from this sort of stuff.

    Many black Americans also see it as indicating subservience in the context of white police officers and officials and believe it hinders rather than advances their cause.
    Indeed. It isn't helpful and choosing not to do it shouldn't be a sign of implicit racism.

    I wouldn't. But I would be happy to walk arm in arm with protestors.
    Really? Given what you might catch these days?
    Was the GoT remark meant to deadcat this? So hard to tell with this government.
    Can someone explain to me how Dominic Raab thinking that the kneeling is like something from Game of Thrones is so incendiary? I don't watch Game of Thrones - decided it wasn't worth watching in series one when the princess woman laid a dragon.
    If 2020 was a TV show it would be the eighth season of Game of Thrones.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I read elsewhere the issue is that he used the unabridged N word, rather than saying 'the N word' when admitting the cat's name.
    Is saying the word illegal? It wasn't even used in a derogatory context.
    Well this case is an interesting precedent

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/04/man-cleared-racial-abuse-endearment
    When it ends with an "a" rather than "er" I guess it is less likely to be an offensive term... not easily proven unless written down though
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    Argh

    Its really made me think awfully of Raab. He should be sacked, not for his choice but for his complete ignorance of what is going on.

    I'm with conspiracy over cock-up on this one. The Game of Thrones reference was deliberately calculated to ensure maximum exposure in a short period of time, as it's media catnip.

    Then he can rapidly walk back on twitter to kill it as a live issue, but the people he wanted to hear the original message will all have heard - Raab will stand up to the darkies.

    It's not ignorance, it's calculated positioning in the context of the next contest for the leadership of the Conservative Party.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488
    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    This is a bit like the Liam Neeson story isn't it?

    If you admit to once having done something racist and how you learned and moved on from it that's as good as admitting you're still racist today.

    It's a remarkably unforgiving and unchristian attitude.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    edited June 2020



  • TresTres Posts: 2,702

    IshmaelZ said:

    kicorse said:

    Re the Raab/Game of Thrones comment, the initial gesture was in fact to sit.

    Colin Kaepernick remained seated during the anthem during a preseason NFL game. After some outrage that this was supposedly an insult to veterans, and with the support of Green Beret (special ops in the US military) Nate Boyer, he switched to kneeling, and others followed his lead. It was clearly a more respectful gesture that still made the point. The change entirely failed to stop the hate directed at him.

    It makes me laugh, albeit hollowly, that the gesture is now being criticised as subservient. But I guess the purpose of the comment was to try to provoke outrage from the left, because, as was mentioned in the podcast, the Tories know that they benefit from this sort of stuff.

    Many black Americans also see it as indicating subservience in the context of white police officers and officials and believe it hinders rather than advances their cause.
    Indeed. It isn't helpful and choosing not to do it shouldn't be a sign of implicit racism.

    I wouldn't. But I would be happy to walk arm in arm with protestors.
    Really? Given what you might catch these days?
    Was the GoT remark meant to deadcat this? So hard to tell with this government.
    Can someone explain to me how Dominic Raab thinking that the kneeling is like something from Game of Thrones is so incendiary? I don't watch Game of Thrones - decided it wasn't worth watching in series one when the princess woman laid a dragon.
    Because it proves that for all his platitudes Raab hasn't actually listened to what people have been protesting about. It is at best showing a lack of respect and at worst an attempt to dogwhistle to racists.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    This is a bit like the Liam Neeson story isn't it?

    If you admit to once having done something racist and how you learned and moved on from it that's as good as admitting you're still racist today.

    It's a remarkably unforgiving and unchristian attitude.
    Agree, but unchristian is a bullshit term.

    The superstitious don’t have a monopoly on forgiveness and decency.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I cannot believe the Raab Game of Thrones blooper was not,deliberate. It is aimed at the membership vote in a who succeeds Boris election. I am worried that it took me so long to work that out.

    Or he could have just been saying what he thinks.

    Physically somehow prostrating yourself is a very strange thing if you're trying to express your thoughts.

    However if you (or anyone else) wishes to express respect in that way then, weird though it is, it'd be hard to disapprove.

    There's a bit of a weird echo of subservience in this too.

    Entirely as weird would be for me to raise my hat to you. I'd prefer that though.
    No, two completely separate things. In refusing to grovel he was absolutely right. It's the GoT remark which was the blooper.
    Agreed 100%

    In how you respond to a protest and what gestures you make I 100% agree should be a personal choice.






    To not even bother to educate yourself on one of the most basic news stories going on at the minute then to betray that ignorance with a pop culture reference - that is pathetic.

    Its really made me think awfully of Raab. He should be sacked, not for his choice but for his complete ignorance of what is going on.
    Well quite. Let's consider the news agenda as it's played out today.

    1. President Macron visits London. World War II. Heroic memories. Friends with European Nations.
    2. Vera Lynn dies. Sad, but again echoes a braver and more united time.
    3. The government admits that their Covid app needs rethinking. Good from a "stopping digging when in a hole" point of view, and a polishable turd, just about. And maybe the plan was to sneak this out under cover of
    1.
    4. The Foreign Secretary admits his ignorance of USA Current Affairs by linking them to a show where ladies don't wear many clothes.

    This really isn't four dimensional chess, is it?
    A genuine LOL. Well done.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    So now they’re suspending someone, for the crime of having had a black cat 60 or 70 years ago?
    I read elsewhere the issue is that he used the unabridged N word, rather than saying 'the N word' when admitting the cat's name.
    Fair enough, so wouldn't a warning and a gentle rap across the knuckles (bearing in mind the context in which he meant it) have been the right response?

    I don't have all the details of course.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andy_JS said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I'd get rid of the Monarchy on principle but I understand I'm not in tune with 99% of the country so it is something I rarely bring up.

    20-25% of the country want to abolish the monarchy IIRC.
    I am one of them.
    After this queen, who has done an excellent job.
    Can never agree that by birth one can be head of state, in a modern democracy.
    I'm open to abolishing it once the current monarch's reign is over, especially if other countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada decide to do so.
    I most certainly am not, I think Charles will do better thsn expected and is concerned about a wide range of issues and has done a lot of good with the Prince's Trust and William will make a great King
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    A number of journalists struggling to comprehend the fact they've been working on Google/Apple API all along 😂

    2 irons in the fire makes sense BUT -

    We seem to have gone from the Great Man's "world beating app by end of May" to our current "hopefully something working by the winter" in quite short order.

    It's bitterly disappointing.
    Paper and pencil. We do not really need a world class app to tell us Mr Smith who has a bit of a temperature came within coughing distance of Ms Jones, when pencil and paper tracing based on just a few questions will find the cluster at the Welsh chicken plant. If the app is ever ready, it risks drowning us in low-level data because as lockdown lifts, many people will pass close by hundreds of others every day.

    Pencil and paper for the big wins. Where did you go? How did you get there?
    I agree. The app is a bauble.

    Making it even harder to understand the focus on it and the high profile promise by the PM.

    Just the usual "Boris" bluster, I suppose.
    Governments have an obsession of being in touch with 'the white heat of technology'.

    Which makes them easy prey for big talking chancers with a flashy idea.
    Yes the government is forever being ripped off by the private sector.

    PFI was a gravy train for example.
    The private sector getting revenge for taxation.

    The question is why does government continually get done over.

    Assuming no corruption is involved I would say its the usual case of government thinking itself clever than it is.
    Some of that no doubt. But PFI was driven by off balance sheet financing. Get it off the books and don't worry too much about the fine print. That is perfect for the counterparty.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    This is a bit like the Liam Neeson story isn't it?

    If you admit to once having done something racist and how you learned and moved on from it that's as good as admitting you're still racist today.

    It's a remarkably unforgiving and unchristian attitude.
    Guy Gibson, who commanded the dams raid. had a black lab called n****r. The grave is still there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_(dog)
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    This is a bit like the Liam Neeson story isn't it?

    If you admit to once having done something racist and how you learned and moved on from it that's as good as admitting you're still racist today.

    It's a remarkably unforgiving and unchristian attitude.
    It's absolutely ridiculous. Unbelievably small-minded and illiberal. A story about the name of his cat in the 1950s!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Andy_JS said:

    "Lib Dem councillor is suspended after he told how he had a black cat called n****r in the 1950s during council meeting on BLM protests

    Dennis Parsons was suspended from the Liberal Democrats for using a racial slur
    He told a story about his childhood cat called n***** in a BLM council meeting
    Local party members voted to suspend his group membership on Wednesday"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8436859/Lib-Dem-councillor-suspended-told-black-cat-called-n-r-1950s.html

    This is a bit like the Liam Neeson story isn't it?

    If you admit to once having done something racist and how you learned and moved on from it that's as good as admitting you're still racist today.

    It's a remarkably unforgiving and unchristian attitude.
    That's not what he's caused offence by.

    He used the word four times, in this climate. That's incredible and naive.

    Who says "n****r" uncensored four times out loud in full, in 2020? Who doesn't say "the n-word" or something like that?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andy_JS said:
    Looks like half the Tory loss has gone to the Brexit Party given the LDs are down 2% and the Tories down 4% but Labour up only 4% on its UK total
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    That looks an outlier - I don't think any other poll has had the Conservatives at 40%. The Labour figure is consistent.
This discussion has been closed.