"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
PB tories appear to have reached peak statue derangement.
Sorry? There are statues being vandalised, defaced, pulled down - or petitioned to be removed all over the country - seemingly with no discrimination, and you think *we're* the deranged ones?
It's views like yours which historians in 50 years time will look back and think..
WTF?
I am horrified and appalled to see mob rule take hold in this country. One fears what this lot would do if they ever got into power.
How does a group of protesters "get into power" exactly? Are they standing in the next GE?
Starmer and dozens of Labour MPs have already bent the knee to them today - literally.
So if you take the knee then you become part of the mob tearing down statues? Do the police that have taken the knee know that?
You are going to look so stupid when Boris or somebody does the same over the next few days.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
Honestly, not too sure about this one. Step too far, IMHO.
Twat
Racist slaver apologist!
Sunil, you sometimes struggle with reading social situations so let me help you out: this is *not* funny. You will lose respect and permanently alienate yourself from many regular posters on this site.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I don't actually have a problem with any of those.
What I do have a problem with is stripping out the existing ones.
I had a quick glance over the biography of H G Wells earlier and he seems okay. I wouldn’t want anything to happen to the Martian tripod in Woking. Other than that the only statues we have our of the Bedser twins. I think they should survive.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
Perhaps it will be removed as a monument to racists who fought for the British Empire.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Er its not that mate. Sod culture. Its the retribution coming our way.
The OJ Simpson trial suggested black people are more than happy to tolerate murder when race is a factor.
In the states more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa. That's with racist white cop forces protecting them.
Minneapolis is getting rid of that protection. Or 'open season on whites' as its otherwise known.
"In the states more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa."
You do realise that as there are a lot more whites than blacks that's basically inevitable, right? That's simple mathematics. It's almost impossible, when whites outnumber blacks 5-to-1, for whites to kill more blacks, than vice-versa.
Well would it not then also be almost impossible for more blacks to kill other blacks than whites to kill blacks. Seeing as they are outnumbered 5/1 and all.
Of course you would be completely wrong in that assumption, because black on black crime is rampant and almost out of control, something that is completely ignored by black lives matter.
My point is that it's not exactly a killer argument to say that more white people are killed by blacks than vice versa.
If a black killer kills indiscriminately, there is a 15% chance he'll kill a black person and a 75% chance he'll kill a white person.
That's just a consequence of relative population numbers.
Is it really a contest?
Couldn't we just accept that all murders are unnecessary and wrong?
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I don't actually have a problem with any of those.
What I do have a problem with is stripping out the existing ones.
I don’t have a problem with existing ones being removed, especially those with little artistic or cultural value.
However, It should be done with due procedure and with public consensus, not mob rule.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
Honestly, if any proof were needed that Khan is dog-whistling to the nutters on his left rather than trying to make reasoned policy it’s his arrogant assumption that these people (who certainly deserve to be honoured) have not already been commemorated because he hasn’t seen a plaque.
Although I suppose he may just think anything outside London can’t be ‘national.’
Maybe I am a cynic, but seems university authorities are giving into their client base's loudest in order to keep the fees rolling in?
I don't see how many universities aren't financially bolloxed with the economic and educational changes that will take place.
Good, let the universities die. They are the seedbed of this repulsive Woke creed
Yes, let's declare Year Zero and remove the intellectuals to re-education camps. Let them learn from the peasants by picking vegetables! Cultural revolution now! The only book that matters is the thoughts of Chairman Boris!
I had a quick glance over the biography of H G Wells earlier and he seems okay. I wouldn’t want anything to happen to the Martian tripod in Woking. Other than that the only statues we have our of the Bedser twins. I think they should survive.
Bit of a eugenicist, might get a gig on Spiked if he were around today.
It’s not just racism. It’s dismissing BAME experiences or views or telling them what they should think. I see Cyclefree has climbed on the latest bandwagon and is busy telling BAME people that she knows better than them what they should feel. Honestly, if white people want to respect BAME people, they should shut up for a bit and listen to them not talk at them.
Excuse me? I have not done this and I object strongly to you making unjustified accusations against me. You made a fool of yourself last night and you’re doing so again. If you had any honour you’d apologise.
Honestly, not too sure about this one. Step too far, IMHO.
You helped unleash the beast,
How?
If you defend partisan mobs that remove statues outside the law, and accuse those who object of being racist, then you're fuelling that mob with their own rhetoric.
You have no grounds for objecting to where this ends up now.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
Perhaps it will be removed as a monument to racists who fought for the British Empire.
I hate to disillusion you, but if it commemorates Gurkha soldiers of that era (which apparently it does, not just the Sikh regiments) it already does.
Reading the reports on the Amritsar Massacre was a definite eye-opener.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Er its not that mate. Sod culture. Its the retribution coming our way.
The OJ Simpson trial suggested black people are more than happy to tolerate murder when race is a factor.
In the states more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa. That's with racist white cop forces protecting them.
Minneapolis is getting rid of that protection. Or 'open season on whites' as its otherwise known.
"In the states more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa."
You do realise that as there are a lot more whites than blacks that's basically inevitable, right? That's simple mathematics. It's almost impossible, when whites outnumber blacks 5-to-1, for whites to kill more blacks, than vice-versa.
Well would it not then also be almost impossible for more blacks to kill other blacks than whites to kill blacks. Seeing as they are outnumbered 5/1 and all.
Of course you would be completely wrong in that assumption, because black on black crime is rampant and almost out of control, something that is completely ignored by black lives matter.
My point is that it's not exactly a killer argument to say that more white people are killed by blacks than vice versa.
If a black killer kills indiscriminately, there is a 15% chance he'll kill a black person and a 75% chance he'll kill a white person.
That's just a consequence of relative population numbers.
Is it really a contest?
Couldn't we just accept that all murders are unnecessary and wrong?
And that all lives matter?
Of course they do, but the recent protests began because some lives matter more than others, at least to US law enforcers.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
It gets terribly predictable at this time of the evening it’s like moths gathering round a blue lamp
This isn't happening in your country. Our country has been seized with a frightful and dangerous lunacy
And we all thought that Jezza being defeated at the GE had put an end to its possibility.
The people trying to have Churchill's statue removed are no more connected to the Labour Party than Tommy Robinson's racist mob are connected to the Tory Party.
We literally just had a Labour Councillor trying to get a Churchill mural taken down.
So what, you can find a Tory Councillor making a stupid comment every day of the week, there are idiots at every level in every party. When Starmer demands the removal of Churchill's statue then you will have a point.
Maybe I am a cynic, but seems university authorities are giving into their client base's loudest in order to keep the fees rolling in?
I don't see how many universities aren't financially bolloxed with the economic and educational changes that will take place.
Good, let the universities die. They are the seedbed of this repulsive Woke creed
Yes, let's declare Year Zero and remove the intellectuals to re-education camps. Let them learn from the peasants by picking vegetables! Cultural revolution now! The only book that matters is the thoughts of Chairman Boris!
Weirdly, I was thinking of the Cultural Revolution as a distant parallel to this. That involves a lot of unruly schoolchildren going around smashing things up for dubious reasons, and they did it because schools were closed and it was more fun than doing nothing.
The difference was of course *why* the schools were closed.
I had a quick glance over the biography of H G Wells earlier and he seems okay. I wouldn’t want anything to happen to the Martian tripod in Woking. Other than that the only statues we have our of the Bedser twins. I think they should survive.
Have you checked out the whole family tree? Anybody related that was into anything now deemed verboten means H G should be cancelled.
Looks like Rhodes Won't Fall in Oriel College, tonight
Good. At some point the mob must be challenged, and pushed back
I understand Oriel have a Very Large (£100m) donation hanging on their decision.
Why would anyone try and leave a legacy as a philanthropist if they are going to be removed from history on a whim at a later date?
The rather wet Provost at the time this last came up (an ex civil servant) was hopeless and lost a lot of goodwill with old college members.
Hopefully the current Provost won't make the same mistake.
Ex-chaplain Nigel Biggar might have something to say (if he isn't a non-person by now).
You underestimate the emotional power of this strange, Dianas-death-like western spasm.
Everyone at Oriel will move in a world of liberal-left pieties, this is academe. They will have friends and colleagues on social media screaming at them to "do the right thing". Anyone who wants the statue kept will be terrified of speaking out, in case they get cancelled. Careers are ending around the world on this issue.
It would be hard enough for a private company to resist this intense pressure, but an Oxford college, with all its angry students and professors, seeking approval from their peers?
I predict they will yield, or they will quietly let some hoons do it for them
It's Karma of a sort after their disdain for Mrs Thatcher.
BTW has anyone consulted Oriel's distinguished fellows Newman, Keble and Pusey on the matter? Or will Keble College and Pusey House be razed to the ground anyway.
Not Pusey House any more - it's become Linacre College.
Honestly, not too sure about this one. Step too far, IMHO.
You helped unleash the beast,
How?
If you defend partisan mobs that remove statues outside the law, and accuse those who object of being racist, then you're fuelling that mob with their own rhetoric.
You have no grounds for objecting to where this ends up now.
None.
Get a grip for God's sake!
How many statues have actually been removed by these 'partisan mobs'?
I had a quick glance over the biography of H G Wells earlier and he seems okay. I wouldn’t want anything to happen to the Martian tripod in Woking. Other than that the only statues we have our of the Bedser twins. I think they should survive.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Wasn’t Alec Bedser a big supporter of apartheid South Africa?
There's a rather romantic statue of Robin Hood and Maid Marian (ironically they are both on one knee) in the village (edwinstowe) near Sherwood Forest . Its my favourite statue but worried the Woke may view (its after all the only view that matters ) that Robin was an evil Crusader who killed non-whites .
In recent years far too many people have wanted the win and screw the consequences.
The Brexiteers who rode the wave of bigotry to win the referendum and or ignored warnings about the risk to the Union who now are a bit mournful about that.
The Bernie Bros who were so pissed their guy lost the nomination in 2016 that they did their best to sabotage Clinton's chance to win in 2016 to prove only Bernie could beat Trump.
I suspect the statue removers will similarly regret their victories.
Maybe I am a cynic, but seems university authorities are giving into their client base's loudest in order to keep the fees rolling in?
I don't see how many universities aren't financially bolloxed with the economic and educational changes that will take place.
Good, let the universities die. They are the seedbed of this repulsive Woke creed
Yes, let's declare Year Zero and remove the intellectuals to re-education camps. Let them learn from the peasants by picking vegetables! Cultural revolution now! The only book that matters is the thoughts of Chairman Boris!
If the Left wants a Culture War to the Bitter End, which it seems they do, then they can have one. Raze the whole fucking country to the ground so the professors have to eat pebbles
Purge the Wreckers and intellectual deviationists!
Looks like Rhodes Won't Fall in Oriel College, tonight
Good. At some point the mob must be challenged, and pushed back
I understand Oriel have a Very Large (£100m) donation hanging on their decision.
Why would anyone try and leave a legacy as a philanthropist if they are going to be removed from history on a whim at a later date?
The rather wet Provost at the time this last came up (an ex civil servant) was hopeless and lost a lot of goodwill with old college members.
Hopefully the current Provost won't make the same mistake.
Ex-chaplain Nigel Biggar might have something to say (if he isn't a non-person by now).
You underestimate the emotional power of this strange, Dianas-death-like western spasm.
Everyone at Oriel will move in a world of liberal-left pieties, this is academe. They will have friends and colleagues on social media screaming at them to "do the right thing". Anyone who wants the statue kept will be terrified of speaking out, in case they get cancelled. Careers are ending around the world on this issue.
It would be hard enough for a private company to resist this intense pressure, but an Oxford college, with all its angry students and professors, seeking approval from their peers?
I predict they will yield, or they will quietly let some hoons do it for them
It's Karma of a sort after their disdain for Mrs Thatcher.
BTW has anyone consulted Oriel's distinguished fellows Newman, Keble and Pusey on the matter? Or will Keble College and Pusey House be razed to the ground anyway.
Not Pusey House any more - it's become Linacre College.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
I still don't *get* people's assumed right not to have to walk past buildings or art that they don't like and feel some disapprobation. I dislike virtually everything built in the 1960's and 70's. More than that, it boils my blood that an elite of sneering architects and taste leaders inflicted brutalist architecture on the lower classes and pulled down beautiful Georgian and Victorian buildings with such zeal. However, I don't feel it's my right to stir up a mob and tear them down. Just deal with it. Get on with life.
Are you me? Hardly a stone would remain standing upon stone if I could have my way with the aesthetic nightmares blighting so many of our cities. Their sheer ugliness causes more psychological harm on a daily basis than an ideologically-incorrect statue ever could. In fact, if you read the justifications modern architects come up with for their vainglorious carbuncles, you often find that their analyses work beautifully on the level of concept and ideology, but fail miserably in the physical, visual, and human sphere ... which is where their buildings actually fucking exist!
High density housing and a thriving commercial space in one. This is how we should regenerate town centres.
Do we need a Bomber Harris before we can do that stuff?
Or Herman Goering? Who did for a fair bit of the area around Teddy Colston's simulacrum?
Not when you have urban planners and modern architects.
Well yes, Clydebank suggests we don't do well with a clean slate. Tbh I was thinking more of friendly bombs falling on what the urban planners and modern architects have produced.
There's a recurring meme in Glasgow that a lot of the tenement housing (eg in the Gorbals) was of such poor quality that it couldn't be upgraded or preserved, so the year zero guys were allowed to run riot in the 50s and 60s on the basis that something had to be be done. That seems quite odd nowadays when expensive extreme measures in terms of new foundations and shoring up are taken to keep tenements literally on the road. Also strange that since the tenement is absolutely THE vernacular style of housing in Glasgow and other Scottish cities hardly anything is done to faithfully reproduce it as in the form of the Dresden developments highlighted by William Glenn, or much of Berlin, a city with which I'm slightly familiar.
Even Edinburgh hasn't been immune. If you look at Princes Street (still beautiful by the way), it contains various monstrosities, as part of a brave new plan (in the 60's) to demolish all the Victorian and Georgian shop frontages, and replace them with a modern shopping precinct on two levels, with a one storey walkable balcony running the length of it.
It truly boggles the mind.
What slightly bothers me is that now we've woken up a lot more to looking after our heritage, but we've fallen into the trap of thinking that the 60's carbuncles somehow deserve preservation too.
Golly, I hadn't realised that they were thinking quite that far outside the envelope re. Princes St. Actually in Glasgow they seem to have come up with quite a decent cunning plan, to cover over the M8 where it runs through Charing Cross and turn it into an open pedestrian space. Whether that'll come off now in these straitened times, who knows?
I'm not entirely anti brutalism, I quite like the South Bank for its absolute unwillingness to ingratiate for example, and the likes of Poundbury leave me a little queasy.
edit: I see the brave new plan for Princes St is from the 60s, still wouldn't put it past them today though.
Thankfully you'd never get away with it today. It's not stopping some horrors still being built, but they tend not to be demolishing beautiful frontages to do it.
I respectfully diverge from you (and @williamglenn) on the subject of Poundbury, because for all it's air of silliness, people do want to live and work there, because the environment at least tries to be beautiful.
What would be good I think is some objective standard of beauty in buildings based on what is naturally appealing to the human eye. We instinctively prefer lightness and colour to darkness and grey - probably because it evokes cleanliness. We usually prefer ornament to lack of ornament, because it signifies effort and expense. We prefer deeper window recesses, probably because they signify thicker walls and therefore greater safety and security. We prefer stone, brick and other materials that connect a building with its landscape, to concrete.
If we can get this down, we can probably judge objectively that a monstrous pile of dark grey concrete, pebble-dashing, thin metal framed windows, with wind-swept overpasses, never looked good, isn't going to start looking good, isn't going to 'come back into fashion', doesn't deserve preservation.
At the moment, Historic Environment Scotland (I think that's the agency) and English Heritage frown heavily on new buildings done in the style of old buildings. I think that's a mistake. I love the modern extension to the National Museum in Edinburgh - but would we really be sorry if the 1960's crap on Princes Street disappeared behind a plausible Georgian pastiche?
To be an exact replica, which is not of course what you are advocating, you'd have to reopen the quarries at Hailes and Craigleith to get the right stone, which is prtobably impossible now even if the residents were evicted, then the windows would hsve to be different in design, and so on. How close is plausible before it just looks odd? I can see that a modern building using say Clashach stone from the Moray Firth and so on could work better - and indeed an example of that stone is seen in the modern extension to the National Museum.
But I must admit that Poundbury gives me the absolute screaming willies. I came across it unexpectedly one evening when staying in Dorchester and looking for somewhere to eat at dusk. I couldn't understand why I was feeling so uneasy till I realised the buildings were modern - the proportions were wrong, Queen Anne brick houses with tiny modern plastic windows. But what got me were the building stones where those were used. Blue Lias stone on one building and then the next had oolite rubble and the one after that Middle Lias ironstone, and this in Dorset where the stone and location are absolutely linked. Like an Inspector Morse episode where they go into a door from one colleage quadrangle and appear in another a mile away. And (this my partner spotted) no front gardens to the houses either. Going back in daylight didn't improve it, though in fairness it's a nice enough place to live. Though the later phases don't seem so nice (however defined).
I agree about 1960s and 70s Princes Street - mostly (I am sure one or two of the smaller shops might be quite nice but can't remember offhand!).
Interesting what you say about the stone. However, most modern developments in the centre of Edinburgh (like Primark on Princes Street) seem to have a source of similar looking stone for cladding. Perhaps it's just reconstituted or reclaimed stuff they use.
And I can't argue with you about Poundbury because I've never been. Photographs look relatively plausible, though I agree about the windows, they're always a dead giveaway. Either way, people would prefer to live there approximately a million times more than living in Milton Keynes. So that's 1- nil for HRH and his pillars and porticos.
What do you both think of the (under construction) walnut whip hotel? I'm not entirely convinced...
I've stopped looking at Edinburgh developments in recent years as moved away. Is it the thumb shaped building that's sort of reminiscent of an orange being peeled that's replacing (replaced?) St James shopping centre?
If so, I was in equal measure delighted that the existing building is going and disappointed that a rather stupid looking building is replacing it. On balance I see the change as just about positive but a missed opportunity.
We’re graduating from building temples to Mammon, to building whole neighbourhoods...
Not sure Mammon will be too pleased his new temple looks like this:
It's just a bit umm, err, 'second prize in the high school architecture model competition' isn't it?
Honestly, not too sure about this one. Step too far, IMHO.
You helped unleash the beast,
How?
If you defend partisan mobs that remove statues outside the law, and accuse those who object of being racist, then you're fuelling that mob with their own rhetoric.
You have no grounds for objecting to where this ends up now.
None.
Get a grip for God's sake!
How many statues have actually been removed by these 'partisan mobs'?
Two in two days, so far. They'd have taken Rhodes too if someone hadn't told the police to actually put proper precautions in place.
Honestly, not too sure about this one. Step too far, IMHO.
You helped unleash the beast,
How?
If you defend partisan mobs that remove statues outside the law, and accuse those who object of being racist, then you're fuelling that mob with their own rhetoric.
You have no grounds for objecting to where this ends up now.
None.
Um, could you tell me how many of the woke mob read PB, or are even aware of it?
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Eadric perhaps not a bad thing to deconstruct our identity in order to examine it a bit? Especially the bit which depends on the idea that the British Empire was deeply beneficial to the colonised. Because that leads to the idea that we are a Great Power who should be leading the world and not a middle sized European country. Sense of identity matters and ought not to be exempt from examination. If you have another British history you want to promote, let's hear it.
“Deeply beneficial” is over egging it, but - on balance - the empire did more good than bad.
Britain is a force for democratic values and liberty. That is something we should be immensely proud of.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Er its not that mate. Sod culture. Its the retribution coming our way.
The OJ Simpson trial suggested black people are more than happy to tolerate murder when race is a factor.
In the states more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa. That's with racist white cop forces protecting them.
Minneapolis is getting rid of that protection. Or 'open season on whites' as its otherwise known.
"In the states more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa."
You do realise that as there are a lot more whites than blacks that's basically inevitable, right? That's simple mathematics. It's almost impossible, when whites outnumber blacks 5-to-1, for whites to kill more blacks, than vice-versa.
Well would it not then also be almost impossible for more blacks to kill other blacks than whites to kill blacks. Seeing as they are outnumbered 5/1 and all.
Of course you would be completely wrong in that assumption, because black on black crime is rampant and almost out of control, something that is completely ignored by black lives matter.
My point is that it's not exactly a killer argument to say that more white people are killed by blacks than vice versa.
If a black killer kills indiscriminately, there is a 15% chance he'll kill a black person and a 75% chance he'll kill a white person.
That's just a consequence of relative population numbers.
Is it really a contest?
Couldn't we just accept that all murders are unnecessary and wrong?
And that all lives matter?
Of course they do, but the recent protests began because some lives matter more than others, at least to US law enforcers.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
So, Mr Khan, all the other groups that contributed to London are to be ignored are they? The Huguenots, for instance. Or the Jews? Or the Irish? Or the Italians? Are they not worthy of celebration? Does their diverse contribution not matter? Do their achievements not count?
It gets terribly predictable at this time of the evening it’s like moths gathering round a blue lamp
This isn't happening in your country. Our country has been seized with a frightful and dangerous lunacy
And we all thought that Jezza being defeated at the GE had put an end to its possibility.
The people trying to have Churchill's statue removed are no more connected to the Labour Party than Tommy Robinson's racist mob are connected to the Tory Party.
We literally just had a Labour Councillor trying to get a Churchill mural taken down.
So what, you can find a Tory Councillor making a stupid comment every day of the week, there are idiots at every level in every party. When Starmer demands the removal of Churchill's statue then you will have a point.
Obama was ahead of the game with the Churchill thing.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Eadric perhaps not a bad thing to deconstruct our identity in order to examine it a bit? Especially the bit which depends on the idea that the British Empire was deeply beneficial to the colonised. Because that leads to the idea that we are a Great Power who should be leading the world and not a middle sized European country. Sense of identity matters and ought not to be exempt from examination. If you have another British history you want to promote, let's hear it.
“Deeply beneficial” is over egging it, but - on balance - the empire did more good than bad.
Britain is a force for democratic values and liberty. That is something we should be immensely proud of.
Better not utter that in public, you will be instantly cancelled.
Their panel has concluded the cartoon isn't racist - an odd verdict for The Guardian, as I thought it was now the role of the victim to say whether they feel racially abused, rather than a panel of men 'whitesplaining' to them why they're wrong to be offended?
Presumably they are not being racist because they depicted someone of Turkish descent in the same way as someone of Gujarati (?) descent.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Eadric perhaps not a bad thing to deconstruct our identity in order to examine it a bit? Especially the bit which depends on the idea that the British Empire was deeply beneficial to the colonised. Because that leads to the idea that we are a Great Power who should be leading the world and not a middle sized European country. Sense of identity matters and ought not to be exempt from examination. If you have another British history you want to promote, let's hear it.
“Deeply beneficial” is over egging it, but - on balance - the empire did more good than bad.
Britain is a force for democratic values and liberty. That is something we should be immensely proud of.
I can’t say I agree with this. It is what it is, a creature of its time. I wouldn’t describe it as good, or bad.
Honestly, not too sure about this one. Step too far, IMHO.
You helped unleash the beast,
How?
If you defend partisan mobs that remove statues outside the law, and accuse those who object of being racist, then you're fuelling that mob with their own rhetoric.
You have no grounds for objecting to where this ends up now.
None.
Get a grip for God's sake!
How many statues have actually been removed by these 'partisan mobs'?
Two in two days, so far. They'd have taken Rhodes too if someone hadn't told the police to actually put proper precautions in place.
Have they actually removed two? Or are you counting the one removed by Sadiq Khan because he's up their collective arse?
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
There's a rather romantic statue of Robin Hood and Maid Marian (ironically they are both on one knee) in the village (edwinstowe) near Sherwood Forest . Its my favourite statue but worried the Woke may view (its after all the only view that matters ) that Robin was an evil Crusader who killed non-whites .
No, he robbed from evil slavers to pay for the poor and downtrodden!
It gets terribly predictable at this time of the evening it’s like moths gathering round a blue lamp
This isn't happening in your country. Our country has been seized with a frightful and dangerous lunacy
And we all thought that Jezza being defeated at the GE had put an end to its possibility.
The people trying to have Churchill's statue removed are no more connected to the Labour Party than Tommy Robinson's racist mob are connected to the Tory Party.
We literally just had a Labour Councillor trying to get a Churchill mural taken down.
So what, you can find a Tory Councillor making a stupid comment every day of the week, there are idiots at every level in every party. When Starmer demands the removal of Churchill's statue then you will have a point.
Moving the goalposts a bit. You said they weren't connected to the Labour Party; a Labour councillor is quite connected to the Labour Party, so I do have a point.
Starmer isn't stupid, like Biden in the US he doesn't want to get lumped with the rest of the nutters in his party. However, there are plenty of Labour MPs and other politicians supporting the Talibanistas.
And btw, I'm one of the few pointing out that the Tories are just watching it happen too.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
So, Mr Khan, all the other groups that contributed to London are to be ignored are they? The Huguenots, for instance. Or the Jews? Or the Irish? Or the Italians? Are they not worthy of celebration? Does their diverse contribution not matter? Do their achievements not count?
In fairness, there’s at least one memorial to a prominent Jewish intellectual in London.
It’s in Highgate Cemetery and keeps being vandalised.
The Local Government Association's (LGA) Labour group has also announced that Labour councils across England and Wales are to review "the appropriateness" of monuments and statues in their towns and cities.
And so it grows, as predicted
PB's resident apologist for slavers writes...
Seems to be more than one of them...
Was it worth breaking seven years' silence for low grade trollery like this?
You're an apologist for slavers, Ishmael? Who knew!
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Eadric perhaps not a bad thing to deconstruct our identity in order to examine it a bit? Especially the bit which depends on the idea that the British Empire was deeply beneficial to the colonised. Because that leads to the idea that we are a Great Power who should be leading the world and not a middle sized European country. Sense of identity matters and ought not to be exempt from examination. If you have another British history you want to promote, let's hear it.
“Deeply beneficial” is over egging it, but - on balance - the empire did more good than bad.
Britain is a force for democratic values and liberty. That is something we should be immensely proud of.
How many Viceroys were elected by the Indian people? India only became a democracy after Independence (ie. a concious choice made by the Indians). OTOH her neighbours Burma and Pakistan quickly became military dictatorships.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I don't actually have a problem with any of those.
What I do have a problem with is stripping out the existing ones.
But all of them BAME? Couldn't he think of one token whitey?
The Woke won't be done until there is a statue of Mandela and a bust of Stephen Lawrence in every living room in the land, equipped with cameras and mikes in the eyes that watch and record your every move, in case you say something ungracious about Islam so you can be electrocuted
I think that's part our national story now, and should be included.
That's how you positively build a culture that includes everyone. Of course, how you do it's important (and I wouldn't want to see any museum or statue politicised) but we've added the women of WWII in the mall, the bomber boys, Millicent Fawcett and Alan Turing in recent years. I think it'd be fun (and kind) to have a statue of Freddie Mercury somewhere in the UK too, not just Switzerland.
But you don't do it by tearing things down. That leads to division, conflict and anger. And does a great disservice to future generations.
In recent years far too many people have wanted the win and screw the consequences.
The Brexiteers who rode the wave of bigotry to win the referendum and or ignored warnings about the risk to the Union who now are a bit mournful about that.
The Bernie Bros who were so pissed their guy lost the nomination in 2016 that they did their best to sabotage Clinton's chance to win in 2016 to prove only Bernie could beat Trump.
I suspect the statue removers will similarly regret their victories.
I'll go back to my post from yesterday, when the mob takes over it's people like us that are lined up and shot.
Honestly, not too sure about this one. Step too far, IMHO.
You helped unleash the beast,
How?
If you defend partisan mobs that remove statues outside the law, and accuse those who object of being racist, then you're fuelling that mob with their own rhetoric.
You have no grounds for objecting to where this ends up now.
None.
Get a grip for God's sake!
How many statues have actually been removed by these 'partisan mobs'?
Two in two days, so far. They'd have taken Rhodes too if someone hadn't told the police to actually put proper precautions in place.
Have they actually removed two? Or are you counting the one removed by Sadiq Khan because he's up their collective arse?
I am using 'removed' in both the active and the middle voice - the one they removed themselves, and the one they had removed through their tool.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
So, Mr Khan, all the other groups that contributed to London are to be ignored are they? The Huguenots, for instance. Or the Jews? Or the Irish? Or the Italians? Are they not worthy of celebration? Does their diverse contribution not matter? Do their achievements not count?
In fairness, there’s at least one memorial to a prominent Jewish intellectual in London.
It’s in Highgate Cemetery and keeps being vandalised.
It gets terribly predictable at this time of the evening it’s like moths gathering round a blue lamp
This isn't happening in your country. Our country has been seized with a frightful and dangerous lunacy
And we all thought that Jezza being defeated at the GE had put an end to its possibility.
The people trying to have Churchill's statue removed are no more connected to the Labour Party than Tommy Robinson's racist mob are connected to the Tory Party.
We literally just had a Labour Councillor trying to get a Churchill mural taken down.
So what, you can find a Tory Councillor making a stupid comment every day of the week, there are idiots at every level in every party. When Starmer demands the removal of Churchill's statue then you will have a point.
Moving the goalposts a bit. You said they weren't connected to the Labour Party; a Labour councillor is quite connected to the Labour Party, so I do have a point.
Starmer isn't stupid, like Biden in the US he doesn't want to get lumped with the rest of the nutters in his party. However, there are plenty of Labour MPs and other politicians supporting the Talibanistas.
Also the initial comment was about a Jezza led government...the one that would have a self confesses Marxist as chancellor...i doubt he would be interested in standing up to the extreme left wing mobs, giving he usually speaks at their events.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
There is also a memorial in Huddersfield.
I never knew that! Where is it?
Greenhead Park. Only went up last year.
Thanks. I hadn’t heard. When I can travel freely again I shall go and see it.
The Indian soldiers who fought and very often died should be far more widely known and commemorated than they are, as should the African soldiers. Very important in Britain’s survival, yet given very little for it. It genuinely is an area that shows race relations in this country in an unflattering light.
Their panel has concluded the cartoon isn't racist - an odd verdict for The Guardian, as I thought it was now the role of the victim to say whether they feel racially abused, rather than a panel of men 'whitesplaining' to them why they're wrong to be offended?
Presumably they are not being racist because they depicted someone of Turkish descent in the same way as someone of Gujarati (?) descent.
Or something
Who knows what pins they danced on to justify it - I can only imagine what a Guardian reader who came across a similar cartoon of Zara Sultana in the Daily Mail would say. I doubt the presence of a Cow Jeremy beside her would stem the outrage.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
Perhaps it will be removed as a monument to racists who fought for the British Empire.
I hate to disillusion you, but if it commemorates Gurkha soldiers of that era (which apparently it does, not just the Sikh regiments) it already does.
Reading the reports on the Amritsar Massacre was a definite eye-opener.
The Indian Mutiny was basically an Indian Civil War if you bear in mind that 90% of the East India Company's army was, er, Indian...
Looks like Rhodes Won't Fall in Oriel College, tonight
Good. At some point the mob must be challenged, and pushed back
I understand Oriel have a Very Large (£100m) donation hanging on their decision.
Why would anyone try and leave a legacy as a philanthropist if they are going to be removed from history on a whim at a later date?
The rather wet Provost at the time this last came up (an ex civil servant) was hopeless and lost a lot of goodwill with old college members.
Hopefully the current Provost won't make the same mistake.
Ex-chaplain Nigel Biggar might have something to say (if he isn't a non-person by now).
You underestimate the emotional power of this strange, Dianas-death-like western spasm.
Everyone at Oriel will move in a world of liberal-left pieties, this is academe. They will have friends and colleagues on social media screaming at them to "do the right thing". Anyone who wants the statue kept will be terrified of speaking out, in case they get cancelled. Careers are ending around the world on this issue.
It would be hard enough for a private company to resist this intense pressure, but an Oxford college, with all its angry students and professors, seeking approval from their peers?
I predict they will yield, or they will quietly let some hoons do it for them
It's Karma of a sort after their disdain for Mrs Thatcher.
BTW has anyone consulted Oriel's distinguished fellows Newman, Keble and Pusey on the matter? Or will Keble College and Pusey House be razed to the ground anyway.
Not Pusey House any more - it's become Linacre College.
Are you sure of that?
Quite right to ask. Senior moment. I was thinking of St Cross College.
Ummm - I’m still not convinced. St Cross College is based in buildings owned by Pusey House, but I don’t think it’s a metamorphosis of it.
Thanks for the further emendation. A friend of mine was there at the time of the move and I'd got the impression that PH had been extinguished.
Honestly, not too sure about this one. Step too far, IMHO.
You helped unleash the beast,
How?
If you defend partisan mobs that remove statues outside the law, and accuse those who object of being racist, then you're fuelling that mob with their own rhetoric.
You have no grounds for objecting to where this ends up now.
None.
Get a grip for God's sake!
How many statues have actually been removed by these 'partisan mobs'?
One. So far. Many others have been heavily vandalised and defaced.
And it was the lack of action by the authorities and shameless acquiescence of so many that has now led to a nationwide bloodthirst for stripping them out.
I'm not the one that needs to get a grip. I'm one of the ones that has one.
Typical of BLM. Exercised by his father’s involvement in slaving, don’t care about the fact that he was a member of the government that saw millions die in a famine in Ireland. Bloody small minded xenophobes.
(Yes, I am trolling, but there is a serious point to that post as well.)
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Eadric perhaps not a bad thing to deconstruct our identity in order to examine it a bit? Especially the bit which depends on the idea that the British Empire was deeply beneficial to the colonised. Because that leads to the idea that we are a Great Power who should be leading the world and not a middle sized European country. Sense of identity matters and ought not to be exempt from examination. If you have another British history you want to promote, let's hear it.
“Deeply beneficial” is over egging it, but - on balance - the empire did more good than bad.
Britain is a force for democratic values and liberty. That is something we should be immensely proud of.
How many Viceroys were elected by the Indian people? India only became a democracy after Independence (ie. a concious choice made by the Indians). OTOH her neighbours Burma and Pakistan quickly became military dictatorships.
If you were one of the 676 opposition leaders arrested by Indira Gandhi during her coup, you might be forgiven for hesitating over how democratic India was.
And it did of course have only one Prime Minister in the first 21 years of independence. Albeit he was a remarkable man and certainly no military dictator.
Their panel has concluded the cartoon isn't racist - an odd verdict for The Guardian, as I thought it was now the role of the victim to say whether they feel racially abused, rather than a panel of men 'whitesplaining' to them why they're wrong to be offended?
Presumably they are not being racist because they depicted someone of Turkish descent in the same way as someone of Gujarati (?) descent.
Or something
Who knows what pins they danced on to justify it - I can only imagine what a Guardian reader who came across a similar cartoon of Zara Sultana in the Daily Mail would say. I doubt the presence of a Cow Jeremy beside her would stem the outrage.
Guardian are free to print any cartoon they like, but they are incredibly quick to accuse other publications on racism. It isn't the first time Bell has been in trouble, some that many have considered anti-Semitic.
But Robert Peel Snr was, so if follow the logic of Gladstone decision, Robert Peel.Jnr has to go too.
Also, if a son is responsible for the father's sins, why not a grandson? An entire dynasty, even unto the tenth generation? After all, they all might have benefited in some tiny way from money made in Barbados three centuries earlier.
Anyone who was *fine* with the Toppling in Bristol is partly responsible for this endless shit now.
Errr, couldn't you have a found a link to that speech which didn't involve going on the website of what Wikipedia calls "a far-right British pressure group" and "founded in 2001 by Gregory Lauder-Frost, a former officer and known racist Western Goals Institute (WGI)"?
In recent years far too many people have wanted the win and screw the consequences.
The Brexiteers who rode the wave of bigotry to win the referendum and or ignored warnings about the risk to the Union who now are a bit mournful about that.
The Bernie Bros who were so pissed their guy lost the nomination in 2016 that they did their best to sabotage Clinton's chance to win in 2016 to prove only Bernie could beat Trump.
I suspect the statue removers will similarly regret their victories.
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
There is also a memorial in Huddersfield.
I never knew that! Where is it?
Greenhead Park. Only went up last year.
Thanks. I hadn’t heard. When I can travel freely again I shall go and see it.
The Indian soldiers who fought and very often died should be far more widely known and commemorated than they are, as should the African soldiers. Very important in Britain’s survival, yet given very little for it. It genuinely is an area that shows race relations in this country in an unflattering light.
Absolutely so. It's part of the Brexiter myth that 'Britain' (sic) stood alone against Hitler and the other dictators. And they fought in both world wars - Mespot and East Africa in the GW (after a brief and ghastly encounter with the Western Front weather), and so on.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
It's gone way beyond BLM, it is now about vandalising all of British history, and trying to make white Britons feel guilty for simply being British. It is an attempt to deconstruct our identity, driven by a weird ragbag or anarchists, Marxists, greens, and Remainers (really, check the FBPE people egging this on).
Fuck them, I hate them, we have to fight back.
The Great Replacement, whether by the Muslamics or the Woke, seems to be a deep, nagging insecurity for the white (mostly male) right. Why are you so unconfident in your culture's ability to survive?
Eadric perhaps not a bad thing to deconstruct our identity in order to examine it a bit? Especially the bit which depends on the idea that the British Empire was deeply beneficial to the colonised. Because that leads to the idea that we are a Great Power who should be leading the world and not a middle sized European country. Sense of identity matters and ought not to be exempt from examination. If you have another British history you want to promote, let's hear it.
“Deeply beneficial” is over egging it, but - on balance - the empire did more good than bad.
Britain is a force for democratic values and liberty. That is something we should be immensely proud of.
How many Viceroys were elected by the Indian people? India only became a democracy after Independence (ie. a concious choice made by the Indians). OTOH her neighbours Burma and Pakistan quickly became military dictatorships.
If you were one of the 676 opposition leaders arrested by Indira Gandhi during her coup, you might be forgiven for hesitating over how democratic India was.
And it did of course have only one Prime Minister in the first 21 years of independence. Albeit he was a remarkable man and certainly no military dictator.
Well, Mrs Gandhi's "Emergency" was the only blemish - luckily it lasted barely 18 months, and in the 1977 election she was kicked out of office.
Their panel has concluded the cartoon isn't racist - an odd verdict for The Guardian, as I thought it was now the role of the victim to say whether they feel racially abused, rather than a panel of men 'whitesplaining' to them why they're wrong to be offended?
Presumably they are not being racist because they depicted someone of Turkish descent in the same way as someone of Gujarati (?) descent.
Or something
Boris being of 'Turkish descent' is surely a bit of a myth?
IIRC only his great-grandfather was Turkish, most of his great-grandparents were English.
Removing statues doesn't remove our history, just stops celebrating them in the present.
This was done legally too, so what is there to object to?
London is owned by all Londoners, this statue - worthy or not - is part of our collective patrimony. This spectacle of a mayor taking it upon himself to tear down statues overnight because some people object, and doing it without democratic consultation, without a vote, a debate, or any discussion at all, is detestable. And disturbing.
There are foreigners on Twitter looking upon this with amazement - and horror.
You think most Londoners wanted that statue to stay?
Typical of BLM. Exercised by his father’s involvement in slaving, don’t care about the fact that he was a member of the government that saw millions die in a famine in Ireland. Bloody small minded xenophobes.
(Yes, I am trolling, but there is a serious point to that post as well.)
It was Gladstone who proposed Irish Home Rule
Yes, his guilt complex led him to do many things.
(There i’m being semi-serious. However, if people do want to anachronistically criticise Gladstone, my point is there are far better lines of attack than his father’s involvement in slaving.)
Maybe I am a cynic, but seems university authorities are giving into their client base's loudest in order to keep the fees rolling in?
I don't see how many universities aren't financially bolloxed with the economic and educational changes that will take place.
Most are already having to move online and charge fees for online courses.
Ironically most of the Oxford colleges have endowments of hundreds of millions of pounds, they may not be so keen on breaking the terms of those legacies and annoying their donors
Removing statues doesn't remove our history, just stops celebrating them in the present.
This was done legally too, so what is there to object to?
London is owned by all Londoners, this statue - worthy or not - is part of our collective patrimony. This spectacle of a mayor taking it upon himself to tear down statues overnight because some people object, and doing it without democratic consultation, without a vote, a debate, or any discussion at all, is detestable. And disturbing.
There are foreigners on Twitter looking upon this with amazement - and horror.
You think most Londoners wanted that statue to stay?
We will never know...remember Bristolians actually wanted the Colston statue to stay, but with a plaque explaining who he really was.
This statue in London is outside a museum which explains the history of that area and its connection to the slave trade. Seems to me like ideal opportunity to again whack a big explainer on who this guy was, what he did (good and plenty of bad) and that you can find out in detail inside.
Errr, couldn't you have a found a link to that speech which didn't involve going on what Wikipedia calls "a far-right British pressure group" and "founded in 2001 by Gregory Lauder-Frost, a former officer and known racist Western Goals Institute (WGI)"
Err...Actually, I tried but I couldn't! I was going to just paste some of it with no link, but thought the whole thing was worth reading, and hoped the independent minds of PB wouldn't be swayed by the source
Apparently you can't say all racism is bad or all lives matter, think he's hoping someone might fall into the trap and let the twitter mob eat them up.
"All racism is bad" is fine.
"All lives matter" is a calculated rejection of "black lives matter" by people who think their over-privileged take on an issue can trump the years of lived experience of millions of people. It reeks of whataboutery, ignorance and, above all, fear.
I am amazed that so many of you otherwise eloquent folk can be so deaf and blind. Dumb, not so much.
It gets terribly predictable at this time of the evening it’s like moths gathering round a blue lamp
This isn't happening in your country. Our country has been seized with a frightful and dangerous lunacy
And we all thought that Jezza being defeated at the GE had put an end to its possibility.
The people trying to have Churchill's statue removed are no more connected to the Labour Party than Tommy Robinson's racist mob are connected to the Tory Party.
We literally just had a Labour Councillor trying to get a Churchill mural taken down.
So what, you can find a Tory Councillor making a stupid comment every day of the week, there are idiots at every level in every party. When Starmer demands the removal of Churchill's statue then you will have a point.
Obama was ahead of the game with the Churchill thing.
Oh, yes yes yes.
Obama actually simply moved the Churchill bust to the British Embassy to make way for a Martin Luther King bust.
However Trump has moved the Churchill bust back to the Oval Office
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I don't actually have a problem with any of those.
What I do have a problem with is stripping out the existing ones.
I don’t have a problem with existing ones being removed, especially those with little artistic or cultural value.
However, It should be done with due procedure and with public consensus, not mob rule.
With committees and, no doubt, lawyers charging fat fees 😁
It gets terribly predictable at this time of the evening it’s like moths gathering round a blue lamp
This isn't happening in your country. Our country has been seized with a frightful and dangerous lunacy
And we all thought that Jezza being defeated at the GE had put an end to its possibility.
The people trying to have Churchill's statue removed are no more connected to the Labour Party than Tommy Robinson's racist mob are connected to the Tory Party.
We literally just had a Labour Councillor trying to get a Churchill mural taken down.
So what, you can find a Tory Councillor making a stupid comment every day of the week, there are idiots at every level in every party. When Starmer demands the removal of Churchill's statue then you will have a point.
Obama was ahead of the game with the Churchill thing.
Oh, yes yes yes.
Obama actually simply moved the Churchill bust to the British Empire to make way for a Martin Luther King bust.
However Trump has moved the Churchill bust back to the Oval Office
The American Revolution kicked off by soldiers and civilians toppling a statue to King George III in New York.
Apparently you can't say all racism is bad or all lives matter, think he's hoping someone might fall into the trap and let the twitter mob eat them up.
"All racism is bad" is fine.
"All lives matter" is a calculated rejection of "black lives matter" by people who think their over-privileged take on an issue can trump the years of lived experience of millions of people. It reeks of whataboutery, ignorance and, above all, fear.
I am amazed that so many of you otherwise eloquent folk can be so deaf and blind. Dumb, not so much.
Thats a bit pompous .Not sure why you think you can define what is fine or not? You can of course agree or not agree as we all can but to declare something fine or not fine suggests you "have a bob on yourself"
"Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial."
I thought there already was a national Sikh war memorial in Brighton.
Errr, couldn't you have a found a link to that speech which didn't involve going on what Wikipedia calls "a far-right British pressure group" and "founded in 2001 by Gregory Lauder-Frost, a former officer and known racist Western Goals Institute (WGI)"
Err...Actually, I tried but I couldn't! I was going to just paste some of it with no link, but thought the whole thing was worth reading, and hoped the independent minds of PB wouldn't be swayed by the source
So you couldn't find that speech anywhere other than on far-right websites? Maybe you should think why that is.
Apparently you can't say all racism is bad or all lives matter, think he's hoping someone might fall into the trap and let the twitter mob eat them up.
"All racism is bad" is fine.
"All lives matter" is a calculated rejection of "black lives matter" by people who think their over-privileged take on an issue can trump the years of lived experience of millions of people. It reeks of whataboutery, ignorance and, above all, fear.
I am amazed that so many of you otherwise eloquent folk can be so deaf and blind. Dumb, not so much.
Well, all lives do matter, at least to me. And these protests are risking widespread loss of life through spreading this bloody virus.
For those who have tried to maintain distancing and protested peacefully, fair enough, good on them.
For those who have wilfully formed into mobs to show how right on they are by attacking anything they disapprove of - nah. They are proving that they don’t care about lives and are just seizing on an excuse to go out and behave like arseholes.
And if people die as a result, how are they morally superior to that Minneapolis cop who murdered somebody apparently just to show he could?
Maybe I am a cynic, but seems university authorities are giving into their client base's loudest in order to keep the fees rolling in?
I don't see how many universities aren't financially bolloxed with the economic and educational changes that will take place.
Good, let the universities die. They are the seedbed of this repulsive Woke creed
Yes, let's declare Year Zero and remove the intellectuals to re-education camps. Let them learn from the peasants by picking vegetables! Cultural revolution now! The only book that matters is the thoughts of Chairman Boris!
If the Left wants a Culture War to the Bitter End, which it seems they do, then they can have one. Raze the whole fucking country to the ground so the professors have to eat pebbles
Purge the Wreckers and intellectual deviationists!
Put down the cheap Aussie Merlot, Foxy
I am as sober as a judge!
Though I may need to drink up my Guyanan rum later...
Comments
Thank you so much.
You are going to look so stupid when Boris or somebody does the same over the next few days.
A memorial in honour of Sikh soldiers who fought during World War One has been unveiled at the National Memorial Arboretum in Staffordshire.
People don't find accusations of racism funny.
Log-off, and have an early night.
What I do have a problem with is stripping out the existing ones.
However, It should be done with due procedure and with public consensus, not mob rule.
https://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/content/leisure-and-libraries/parks-and-green-spaces/chattri-memorial
Honestly, if any proof were needed that Khan is dog-whistling to the nutters on his left rather than trying to make reasoned policy it’s his arrogant assumption that these people (who certainly deserve to be honoured) have not already been commemorated because he hasn’t seen a plaque.
Although I suppose he may just think anything outside London can’t be ‘national.’
Not sure why you're defending such a bloke!
You have no grounds for objecting to where this ends up now.
None.
Reading the reports on the Amritsar Massacre was a definite eye-opener.
No school till September? It’s another whoopsie from the Tories’ Frank Spencer
Gavin Williamson was forced to make an embarrassing climbdown in the Commons... and MPs weren’t happy
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/09/no-school-till-september-another-whoopsie-tories-frank-spencer/
Chin up lads, don't you know there's a pandemic on, remain indoors, etc.
The difference was of course *why* the schools were closed.
How many statues have actually been removed by these 'partisan mobs'?
The Brexiteers who rode the wave of bigotry to win the referendum and or ignored warnings about the risk to the Union who now are a bit mournful about that.
The Bernie Bros who were so pissed their guy lost the nomination in 2016 that they did their best to sabotage Clinton's chance to win in 2016 to prove only Bernie could beat Trump.
I suspect the statue removers will similarly regret their victories.
Frank Spencer always meant well.
It's just a bit umm, err, 'second prize in the high school architecture model competition' isn't it?
Britain is a force for democratic values and liberty. That is something we should be immensely proud of.
Oh, yes yes yes.
Or something
Starmer isn't stupid, like Biden in the US he doesn't want to get lumped with the rest of the nutters in his party. However, there are plenty of Labour MPs and other politicians supporting the Talibanistas.
And btw, I'm one of the few pointing out that the Tories are just watching it happen too.
It’s in Highgate Cemetery and keeps being vandalised.
That's how you positively build a culture that includes everyone. Of course, how you do it's important (and I wouldn't want to see any museum or statue politicised) but we've added the women of WWII in the mall, the bomber boys, Millicent Fawcett and Alan Turing in recent years. I think it'd be fun (and kind) to have a statue of Freddie Mercury somewhere in the UK too, not just Switzerland.
But you don't do it by tearing things down. That leads to division, conflict and anger. And does a great disservice to future generations.
Exactly what Maomentum want, of course.
This was done legally too, so what is there to object to?
Ironic they needed a JCB for the latter!
https://traditionalbritain.org/blog/road-national-suicide/
The Indian soldiers who fought and very often died should be far more widely known and commemorated than they are, as should the African soldiers. Very important in Britain’s survival, yet given very little for it. It genuinely is an area that shows race relations in this country in an unflattering light.
And it was the lack of action by the authorities and shameless acquiescence of so many that has now led to a nationwide bloodthirst for stripping them out.
I'm not the one that needs to get a grip. I'm one of the ones that has one.
And it did of course have only one Prime Minister in the first 21 years of independence. Albeit he was a remarkable man and certainly no military dictator.
😊
IIRC only his great-grandfather was Turkish, most of his great-grandparents were English.
(There i’m being semi-serious. However, if people do want to anachronistically criticise Gladstone, my point is there are far better lines of attack than his father’s involvement in slaving.)
Ironically most of the Oxford colleges have endowments of hundreds of millions of pounds, they may not be so keen on breaking the terms of those legacies and annoying their donors
This statue in London is outside a museum which explains the history of that area and its connection to the slave trade. Seems to me like ideal opportunity to again whack a big explainer on who this guy was, what he did (good and plenty of bad) and that you can find out in detail inside.
"All lives matter" is a calculated rejection of "black lives matter" by people who think their over-privileged take on an issue can trump the years of lived experience of millions of people. It reeks of whataboutery, ignorance and, above all, fear.
I am amazed that so many of you otherwise eloquent folk can be so deaf and blind. Dumb, not so much.
However Trump has moved the Churchill bust back to the Oval Office
https://twitter.com/BBCArchive/status/1270309668481642497?s=20
Good luck
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-50588998
For those who have tried to maintain
distancing and protested peacefully, fair enough, good on them.
For those who have wilfully formed into mobs to show how right on they are by attacking anything they disapprove of - nah. They are proving that they don’t care about lives and are just seizing on an excuse to go out and behave like arseholes.
And if people die as a result, how are they morally superior to that Minneapolis cop who murdered somebody apparently just to show he could?
Though I may need to drink up my Guyanan rum later...