"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
Starmer is reacting to the current moment. Which, like it or not, is explicitly about anti-black racism. Of course, if he was incorporating this into a wider fight against racism that he was engaged in, then you wouldn't have this concern, because it'd be obvious that's what was happening. The problem is that he's being completely reactive, opportunistically jumping on the bandwagon.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
This is just another variant of the "all lives matter" nonsense. I think you're just being obtuse.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
Starmer is reacting to the current moment. Which, like it or not, is explicitly about anti-black racism. Of course, if he was incorporating this into a wider fight against racism that he was engaged in, then you wouldn't have this concern, because it'd be obvious that's what was happening. The problem is that he's being completely reactive, opportunistically jumping on the bandwagon.
I think "racism" works just as well as "anti-black racism" here.
Don't "we" regularly deface Marx's grave in Highgate Cemetery anyway.
Should the response then not be to remove it, rebury him in an unmarked grave? I mean if it's been vandalised, then surely 'the people have spoken'.
You mean like Jimmy Saville? Hmmm. Comparable in their own ways I suppose.
Yes, although Jimmy Savile only caused fear, misery and irreparable damage to those innocent souls unfortunate enough to come into direct contact with him. Marx's poisonous ideology has been used as a justification for robbing millions of their liberty and their lives across the globe for over a century.
As I recall, Corbyn was heavily criticized for stating he was opposed to all forms of racism, without singling out racism against Jewish people. Imagine that is why Starmer chose those words.
Yes because Jez was an anti-Semite. When asked questions of "do you hate Jews" ge equivocated. No one is asking Starmer the question about black people, this is a statement he's made voluntarily that marks out racism against black people specifically as an ill (which it is) and ignores racism against Asians and Jews among other minorities. Why do this?!
I'm baffled by this. It must be a wind up. No one really reads a statement of "I am opposed to anti-black racism" as "I'm in favour of racism against other groups".
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
This is just another variant of the "all lives matter" nonsense. I think you're just being obtuse.
Yes, sorry for wanting to know whether the leader of the opposition gives a shit about racism faced by Asians or Jews. Sorry that my being obtuse is interfering with your ability to fawn about your favourite politician.
Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.
As I recall, Corbyn was heavily criticized for stating he was opposed to all forms of racism, without singling out racism against Jewish people. Imagine that is why Starmer chose those words.
Yes because Jez was an anti-Semite. When asked questions of "do you hate Jews" ge equivocated. No one is asking Starmer the question about black people, this is a statement he's made voluntarily that marks out racism against black people specifically as an ill (which it is) and ignores racism against Asians and Jews among other minorities. Why do this?!
Eh, this just seems like a double-standard. So you wanted Jez to throw Asians under the bus to reassure Jews?
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
This is just another variant of the "all lives matter" nonsense. I think you're just being obtuse.
I agree. I don't like Starmer and wouldn't vote for him but given the current issue dominating the media is racism against blacks its seems ridiculous to criticise Starmer for the phrasing of his comments. It would be like attacking Corbyn for being anti-black when he was addressing the issue of anti-Semitism. If every statement made by politicians has to be couched in conditionals then we would get very tired of it all very quickly.
Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.
As I recall, Corbyn was heavily criticized for stating he was opposed to all forms of racism, without singling out racism against Jewish people. Imagine that is why Starmer chose those words.
Yes because Jez was an anti-Semite. When asked questions of "do you hate Jews" ge equivocated. No one is asking Starmer the question about black people, this is a statement he's made voluntarily that marks out racism against black people specifically as an ill (which it is) and ignores racism against Asians and Jews among other minorities. Why do this?!
Eh, this just seems like a double-standard. So you wanted Jez to throw Asians under the bus to reassure Jews?
But no one was asking Jez whether he was racist against Asians. I don't know Starmer's views on racism and I was hoping to learn about them during this period. No one's asking Starmer "do you hate blacks" in which case an answer or "all racism is bad" is completely inappropriate. This is a voluntary statement on racism in the UK, why equivocate?
Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.
As I recall, Corbyn was heavily criticized for stating he was opposed to all forms of racism, without singling out racism against Jewish people. Imagine that is why Starmer chose those words.
Yes because Jez was an anti-Semite. When asked questions of "do you hate Jews" ge equivocated. No one is asking Starmer the question about black people, this is a statement he's made voluntarily that marks out racism against black people specifically as an ill (which it is) and ignores racism against Asians and Jews among other minorities. Why do this?!
Eh, this just seems like a double-standard. So you wanted Jez to throw Asians under the bus to reassure Jews?
I don't think SKS is defending himself against charges of racism. Jez was. But because he was also an anti-semite he couldn't do so without trying to wriggle out of it, hence his "all forms of racism".
Starmer made a voluntary, what I hope was only a clumsy statement which as we have seen, is also offensive.
We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.
I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. And yet I am not so opposed to capitalism that I have failed to see its relative merits. It started out with a noble and high motive, viz, to block the trade monopolies of nobles, but like most human system it fail victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has outlived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes. So I think Bellamy is right in seeing the gradual decline of capitalism.
I see that that fundraiser is *still* in violation of the GoFundMe basic conditions in that it does not identify a named individual as is required.
Does anyone know whether the 750k is going?
I think the point about capitalism is that it lifts people far more effectively than socialism ever has or could.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
This is just another variant of the "all lives matter" nonsense. I think you're just being obtuse.
Yes, sorry for wanting to know whether the leader of the opposition gives a shit about racism faced by Asians or Jews. Sorry that my being obtuse is interfering with your ability to fawn about your favourite politician.
The Jewish Chronicle and other Jewish groups have said, inter alia, Sir Keir Starmer 'achieved more in four days than his predecessor did in four years', Jewish groups say after meeting.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
I would hope and trust that he is against all forms of racism. Here he is (perhaps opportunistically) associating himself and the party specifically with the form of it which is on the radar big time right now due to Floyd and the BLM protests. Anti-Black racism. I see no basis for extrapolating this into an inference that he is not against antisemitism or against anti-Asian racism or against anti (insert) racism.
PS: None of this "kneeling" stuff proves that much in any case imo. It's about actions, e.g. proposed policies to address the issue.
Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
Maybe some don't like being killed by policemen?
In the UK? There are thankfully very few instances of the police killing people full stop, and since the case of Stephen Lawrence 27 years ago, the police have undergone a lot of reform. Jean Charles de Menezes is obviously the one where the police actions are seriously questionable.
We aren't the US, gunning down a 1000 members of the public a year.
I do think that, for all the police are clearly out of control in the US, there is a deeper problem in that country than just the police. Robert Smithson pointed out yesterday that the US police killed 5 time more people in one year than our police have in their history.
But it is also worth noting that since 1900, 253 British police officers have been murdered whilst doing their duty. That is in 120 years (though it does exclude NI with the Troubles) and averages just over 2 a year
In 2019 89 US police officers were killed whilst on duty. That was actually a massive fall from the previous year when 144 were killed.
More shocking still, between 1980 and 2015, 260,000 black men died violently in the US. Overall, murders in the US - black and white, male and female - are running at 14,000 a year, almost half of those being people between the ages of 17 and 30.
The issue in the US appears to me to be the acceptance of casual violence on all sides. Until that is solved I am not sure there will be any solution to one specific part of it.
They should go after violent videogames and movies, no one else has those.
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
I'm not a golf fan in the way I'm a football fan, but for those golf experts on here, how many of you expect this year's Ryder Cup
1) To take place on time at the current location?
2) Without fans?
PGA tour starts up again in 2 days and the Memorial already have approval for fans to attend, so Id say decent odds - although there may not be any european fans there.
I'm not a golf fan in the way I'm a football fan, but for those golf experts on here, how many of you expect this year's Ryder Cup
1) To take place on time at the current location?
2) Without fans?
PGA tour starts up again in 2 days and the Memorial already have approval for fans to attend, so Id say decent odds - although there may not be any european fans there.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.
I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. And yet I am not so opposed to capitalism that I have failed to see its relative merits. It started out with a noble and high motive, viz, to block the trade monopolies of nobles, but like most human system it fail victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has outlived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes. So I think Bellamy is right in seeing the gradual decline of capitalism.
I see that that fundraiser is *still* in violation of the GoFundMe basic conditions in that it does not identify a named individual as is required.
Does anyone know whether the 750k is going?
I think the point about capitalism is that it lifts people far more effectively than socialism ever has or could.
Trying to edit. Meant to add the point that regulation is appropriate, but I think the last 20-30 years of lifting developing countries out of poverty answers any remaining question.
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
Isn't it more to do with the fact the school estate isn't big enough to accommodate all pupils and adhere to social distancing?
Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.
As I recall, Corbyn was heavily criticized for stating he was opposed to all forms of racism, without singling out racism against Jewish people. Imagine that is why Starmer chose those words.
Yes because Jez was an anti-Semite. When asked questions of "do you hate Jews" ge equivocated. No one is asking Starmer the question about black people, this is a statement he's made voluntarily that marks out racism against black people specifically as an ill (which it is) and ignores racism against Asians and Jews among other minorities. Why do this?!
Eh, this just seems like a double-standard. So you wanted Jez to throw Asians under the bus to reassure Jews?
But no one was asking Jez whether he was racist against Asians. I don't know Starmer's views on racism and I was hoping to learn about them during this period. No one's asking Starmer "do you hate blacks" in which case an answer or "all racism is bad" is completely inappropriate. This is a voluntary statement on racism in the UK, why equivocate?
So if I'm understanding correctly: Corbyn had to exclude Asians because nobody was asking him if he was racist against Asians, whereas Starmer has to include Asians because nobody's asking him if he's racist against black people? I'm not sure these rules are as clear to everyone as you imagine.
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
Yep. Shambles. Where are the scientists now? Hidden away? Sharma just refused to even recognize a question about a promised review of 2m which just hasn't happened.
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
Couldn't agree more. Sharma incidentally is the epitome of a boring corporate suit. He said nothing and batted away any remotely interesting Q's. Briefings with him are a complete waste of time and the poor woman from 'elf and safety might as well not have turned up. It is a disgrace he was put up today instead of Williamson., Patel or Boris himself all of whom have more pressing questions to answer.
Anyway, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure it's just clumsily worded to jump on a bandwagon. Still, it seems odd to single out one form of racism when a broader statement actually works better.
I'm also disappointed that he is still a complete policy blank sheet. Where are Labour's ideas on combating racism by the police, where are Labour's ideas on combating racism in the workplace?
This is becoming a pattern, he's good at spotting deficiencies but not very good at coming up with policies.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
It's British exceptionalism. Which works for the government as long as no one notices whether it succeeds or fails. I think it could be failing here and people are certainly noticing.
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
Isn't it more to do with the fact the school estate isn't big enough to accommodate all pupils and adhere to social distancing?
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
I wonder how much the Great British Public have taken on board how bad things have been in the UK compared with elsewhere, and how slowly things are improving compared with other countries.
As other countries start to report zero deaths and zero cases on a regular basis, what will happen to the government's reputation?
We have been used to thinking we kick everyone's arse. And even when we haven't, it's been in a land far away and no one really understands the dynamics of, say, the Mahdi Army or whether we would or would not have been better off in the Euro (we naturally assume we did the right thing and who's to say we didn't).
This has two elements which I think will promote awareness. The first as you say, we can see people in Paris in cafes and hear other countries with no death toll and opening up; and as with the Cummings case, everyone is stuck inside watching this stuff. There is nothing to take peoples' mind or attention away. No soaps, no sports, to watch or play, so nothing. It's a perfect climate for people to pay attention to what the government is up to.
I'd like to have been in the Britain you've clearly been in all your life. From where I sit, as a nation we've been in decline (slow becoming fast) since 1850, and made only too aware of the fact, with brief but cheering interregnum of Thatcher, Harrier Jump Jets etc. era that ended decisively with the debacle of the second invasion of Iraq. I don't recognise this confident expectation that we'll be better off than other countries - I think if it comes out in the wash that we've done about middling, or even poor to middling, nobody will be at all surprised.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
???
PLEASE reflect on this post.
You're projecting exactly what you have been so eloquently bemoaning.
You having a senior moment? That was Casino Royale.
Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.
As I recall, Corbyn was heavily criticized for stating he was opposed to all forms of racism, without singling out racism against Jewish people. Imagine that is why Starmer chose those words.
Yes because Jez was an anti-Semite. When asked questions of "do you hate Jews" ge equivocated. No one is asking Starmer the question about black people, this is a statement he's made voluntarily that marks out racism against black people specifically as an ill (which it is) and ignores racism against Asians and Jews among other minorities. Why do this?!
Eh, this just seems like a double-standard. So you wanted Jez to throw Asians under the bus to reassure Jews?
I don't think SKS is defending himself against charges of racism. Jez was. But because he was also an anti-semite he couldn't do so without trying to wriggle out of it, hence his "all forms of racism".
Starmer made a voluntary, what I hope was only a clumsy statement which as we have seen, is also offensive.
So, Corbyn being opposed to all forms of racism was wriggling out of condemning anti-semitism, whereas Starmer being opposed to all forms of racism wouldn't have been watering down his support for BLM and opposition to racism against black people?
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
This is just another variant of the "all lives matter" nonsense. I think you're just being obtuse.
Yes, sorry for wanting to know whether the leader of the opposition gives a shit about racism faced by Asians or Jews. Sorry that my being obtuse is interfering with your ability to fawn about your favourite politician.
The Jewish Chronicle and other Jewish groups have said, inter alia, Sir Keir Starmer 'achieved more in four days than his predecessor did in four years', Jewish groups say after meeting.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
It's British exceptionalism. Which works for the government as long as no one notices whether it succeeds or fails. I think it could be failing here and people are certainly noticing.
I would say it's ideology. The UK is not used to ideological governments and maybe doesn't recognise the dangers. Ideology makes you blind.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
I wonder how much the Great British Public have taken on board how bad things have been in the UK compared with elsewhere, and how slowly things are improving compared with other countries.
As other countries start to report zero deaths and zero cases on a regular basis, what will happen to the government's reputation?
We have been used to thinking we kick everyone's arse. And even when we haven't, it's been in a land far away and no one really understands the dynamics of, say, the Mahdi Army or whether we would or would not have been better off in the Euro (we naturally assume we did the right thing and who's to say we didn't).
This has two elements which I think will promote awareness. The first as you say, we can see people in Paris in cafes and hear other countries with no death toll and opening up; and as with the Cummings case, everyone is stuck inside watching this stuff. There is nothing to take peoples' mind or attention away. No soaps, no sports, to watch or play, so nothing. It's a perfect climate for people to pay attention to what the government is up to.
I'd like to have been in the Britain you've clearly been in all your life. From where I sit, as a nation we've been in decline (slow becoming fast) since 1850, and made only too aware of the fact, with brief but cheering interregnum of Thatcher, Harrier Jump Jets etc. era that ended decisively with the debacle of the second invasion of Iraq. I don't recognise this confident expectation that we'll be better off than other countries - I think if it comes out in the wash that we've done about middling, or even poor to middling, nobody will be at all surprised.
That's interesting. I just don't think it affects people all that much while they can go down the pub or to the footie. But it may be different when all they can do is to study the government's performance on these matters. The second invasion of Iraq was chock full of failures but none that you'd notice with an untrained eye. Look at Remembrance Day parades and the lauding of our "heroes". Why a whole organisation was set up to help those heroes and heroes don't fail, now, do they?
I'm also disappointed that he is still a complete policy blank sheet. Where are Labour's ideas on combating racism by the police, where are Labour's ideas on combating racism in the workplace?
This is becoming a pattern, he's good at spotting deficiencies but not very good at coming up with policies.
Here I agree absolutely.
Well, except the bit about being good at spotting deficiencies. It seems to usually take him a week or two longer than everyone else to notice.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
It's British exceptionalism. Which works for the government as long as no one notices whether it succeeds or fails. I think it could be failing here and people are certainly noticing.
I would say it's ideology. The UK is not used to ideological governments and maybe doesn't recognise the dangers. Ideology makes you blind.
Another irregular verb -
I am rational and unprejudiced You is an ideologue and bigoted He have been cancelled as not human.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
This is just another variant of the "all lives matter" nonsense. I think you're just being obtuse.
Yes, sorry for wanting to know whether the leader of the opposition gives a shit about racism faced by Asians or Jews. Sorry that my being obtuse is interfering with your ability to fawn about your favourite politician.
He's not my favourite politician. I didn't even vote for him as Labour leader. I suspect he does care about racism against Jews as his wife is Jewish and he is raising his kids as Jewish. I just think you're being a bit daft about this, twisting a comment he made to accuse him of something for which there is no evidence in favour and much evidence to the contrary. And if you want to get onto the topic of whether the leader of any major party is racist, you might want to focus on the one who used a racist term whose last outing by a senior British politician was in Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
I wonder how much the Great British Public have taken on board how bad things have been in the UK compared with elsewhere, and how slowly things are improving compared with other countries.
As other countries start to report zero deaths and zero cases on a regular basis, what will happen to the government's reputation?
We have been used to thinking we kick everyone's arse. And even when we haven't, it's been in a land far away and no one really understands the dynamics of, say, the Mahdi Army or whether we would or would not have been better off in the Euro (we naturally assume we did the right thing and who's to say we didn't).
This has two elements which I think will promote awareness. The first as you say, we can see people in Paris in cafes and hear other countries with no death toll and opening up; and as with the Cummings case, everyone is stuck inside watching this stuff. There is nothing to take peoples' mind or attention away. No soaps, no sports, to watch or play, so nothing. It's a perfect climate for people to pay attention to what the government is up to.
I'd like to have been in the Britain you've clearly been in all your life. From where I sit, as a nation we've been in decline (slow becoming fast) since 1850, and made only too aware of the fact, with brief but cheering interregnum of Thatcher, Harrier Jump Jets etc. era that ended decisively with the debacle of the second invasion of Iraq. I don't recognise this confident expectation that we'll be better off than other countries - I think if it comes out in the wash that we've done about middling, or even poor to middling, nobody will be at all surprised.
That's interesting. I just don't think it affects people all that much while they can go down the pub or to the footie. But it may be different when all they can do is to study the government's performance on these matters. The second invasion of Iraq was chock full of failures but none that you'd notice with an untrained eye. Look at Remembrance Day parades and the lauding of our "heroes". Why a whole organisation was set up to help those heroes and heroes don't fail, now, do they?
I was a late-teenager attending uni at the time of Iraq 2. I was opposed to joining America in Iraq, but I did firmly believe (perhaps British exceptionalism at work) that our military was the best-trained and amongst the most capable in the world, and would acquit iself extremely well - and so it seemed in the beginning with Basra. I think the eventual outcome (or lack of outcome) of the conflict shattered that - it certainly did for me.
Your point about politicians being under greater scrutiny during this time is undoubtedly true. And whatever else this is, it has certainly (so far) been a huge missed opportunity to really unite the country.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
I hope than far more people than Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this - skin colour is irrelevant (as always) - and I think they will - Starmer is a poseur. He`s reminding me of that prize bell-end Trudeau.
It does look a bit ... well you know.
But it does not imo insult other minorities. An attack by Conservative Asian politicians along those lines would be poor form. As others have said, the main point is policies to address the issue. If they are not forthcoming the charge would indeed be "poseur" and it would be merited. But I hope Labour under Starmer WILL have such policies. Jury is out on whether he is serious about the equality agenda or will seek to downplay it for perceived electoral reasons.
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
Isn't it more to do with the fact the school estate isn't big enough to accommodate all pupils and adhere to social distancing?
Sort out social distancing (which doesn't work with young children in any case) by reducing to 1m and you sort out the school capacity issue.
So this kneeing thing. Started off in the NFL as a way of not standing to attention when the US National Anthem was played because the US's record on treating black people was really nothing to be proud of.
What's it got to do with us exactly?
Probably karma. Plenty of folk here (including the 'here' of PB) thought it had enough to do with them to enable them to sneer at it as meaningless virtue signalling that was going to bankrupt Nike. They seem more angry than sneery now
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
The government has been pretty crap, and they're not improving, BUT if you look at the minutes they were following the SAGE science religiously. "Don't lock down yet", "quarantine is pointless", "masks don't work"
It would take a very brave government to entirely ignore expert scientific advice at the outset of a plague. I doubt Starmer would have done any different
When the time comes for judgements, which will be harsh, the total failure of Britain's scientific elite must mean that the boffins pay a price, as well as the politicians
But they wont.
The underlying problem for this country is that few are as good as they think they are and this goes double for those organisations which think they are world leaders.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
The government has been pretty crap, and they're not improving, BUT if you look at the minutes they were following the SAGE science religiously. "Don't lock down yet", "quarantine is pointless", "masks don't work"
It would take a very brave government to entirely ignore expert scientific advice at the outset of a plague. I doubt Starmer would have done any different
When the time comes for judgements, which will be harsh, the total failure of Britain's scientific elite must mean that the boffins pay a price, as well as the politicians
Johnson isn't the Prime Minister the country needs, or the one I wanted, but he's the one we have got. I, for one, was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because that trust is necessary if we are to get through the epidemic in one piece. For a while I thought he was sincere in wanting to do the best thing, even if that meant pretending he was Churchill.
Sorry but this is just too late. It was already too late when we had hardly started. As Cyclefree has been quite rightly banging on about for weeks, vast numbers of small businesses are simply not going to survive. And it will not just be because of the rules. For all they have made a mess at a lot of things, the Government has been very very successful in persuading people that it is unsafe to be out and about.
Yes there will be those younger cadres who will quickly learn to ignore the risks - at least until they infect Granny and she dies on them. But vast numbers of people who have the spending power are not going to rush back into pubs, theatres, shops and restaurants simply because we want them to. They will quite happily continue to sit at home and order everything via the internet and wait until after the winter to see if that second wave materialises.
The country was already shutting down long before the Government imposed the rules. And it will take a very long time indeed for it to open up again. It will be many years before we get back to the sorts of spending we saw before the crisis and much of that will have transferred online. Most small independent shops and particularly food and entertainment venues are already dead. They just haven't realised it yet.
This was inevitable as soon as we decided on our initial voluntary lockdown.
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
Isn't it more to do with the fact the school estate isn't big enough to accommodate all pupils and adhere to social distancing?
Sort out social distancing (which doesn't work with young children in any case) by reducing to 1m and you sort out the school capacity issue.
Anyway, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure it's just clumsily worded to jump on a bandwagon. Still, it seems odd to single out one form of racism when a broader statement actually works better.
I'm also disappointed that he is still a complete policy blank sheet. Where are Labour's ideas on combating racism by the police, where are Labour's ideas on combating racism in the workplace?
This is becoming a pattern, he's good at spotting deficiencies but not very good at coming up with policies.
Good enough for me. People usually won't budge an inch from whatever they post first. Nice one and hats off.
Just to improve the mood - Lower tier local authorities in England which have report zero cases for 7 days.
Havant Stevenage Adur Woking Harlow Gloucester Exeter Hastings East Devon Cotswold Gosport Arun North Hertfordshire Worthing Chichester Waverley North Norfolk City of London Eastbourne Rugby East Lindsey Harborough Lincoln Tewkesbury Hart Chesterfield Breckland Torridge Ryedale Teignbridge Dorset North East Derbyshire North Devon Ipswich West Lindsey Broadland Stroud Mansfield Uttlesford Maldon Hertsmere East Hampshire Cheltenham West Devon Broxbourne
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
There's a fair chance Sottish schools are going to open before England's. If only TGOHF hadn't been banned, he could publicly express his pleasure at this turn of events.
I suspect the real effect here will be to show how children can miss out on a chunk of their education without it being any detriment to their lives.
There's something in this. Comparing my experience of state schools as a 1980's pupil and a 2010's teacher, it's noticeable how highly-strung the system has become. I'm not sure that's been a wholly good thing.
I'd love everyone to be in schools now, even one day a week. I'd love broadcast education to be better. That won't happen, because it means admitting that full-time school is a while off. (Though the BBC and Oak National Academy have done impressive things).
But in the grand scheme of things, the kids will be all right. This is the worst thing to happen since World War 2, and the UK has handled it badly. But it's a pinprick compared with a total war.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
Is racism against black people worse than racism against Jews? I thought Labour had moved beyond this kind of stuff. I have to say this is incredibly disappointing.
FFS! “We kneel with all those opposing racism by whomever it is committed and against whomever” is what needs to be said.
And when are women going to get a look in in this identity Top Trumps game? Or is misogyny against women - even when committed by black men, say, just not important any more?
O/T Just had a couple of interactions with Betfair, who have not settled my Sportsbook Bet on Biden getting the Democratic Presidential Nomination. I'm not sure they are waiting for some sort of official announcement by the Dems? But all the news channels carried the news that Biden had the requisite number of votes.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?
This is just another variant of the "all lives matter" nonsense. I think you're just being obtuse.
Yes, sorry for wanting to know whether the leader of the opposition gives a shit about racism faced by Asians or Jews. Sorry that my being obtuse is interfering with your ability to fawn about your favourite politician.
He's not my favourite politician. I didn't even vote for him as Labour leader. I suspect he does care about racism against Jews as his wife is Jewish and he is raising his kids as Jewish. I just think you're being a bit daft about this, twisting a comment he made to accuse him of something for which there is no evidence in favour and much evidence to the contrary. And if you want to get onto the topic of whether the leader of any major party is racist, you might want to focus on the one who used a racist term whose last outing by a senior British politician was in Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech.
Almost every Labour member on here (inc. me) voted for Nandy.
That said, to protect it forever like this is impossible. Eventually some nutters will get up there and topple it, OR this weird convulsion will die out, OR the courts start handing out huge sentences which deter (as in the riots of 2011)
My pessimistic bet is that in the end they will topple it, and then go on to other targets.
You can see the window of my old room in that shot...
If we're talking about the maghreb did any PBer follow my suggestion to go down Vauxhall Bridge Road and start an anti-slavery protest at the Mauritanian embassy ?
I wonder if it would be different if it was Israel where slavery was endemic.
Absolutely useless by the government today (yet again)
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
There's a fair chance Sottish schools are going to open before England's. If only TGOHF hadn't been banned, he could publicly express his pleasure at this turn of events.
I expect he'd be too busy with his little thought experiments.
As for the London government's reluctance to do the experiment of reducing from 2m to 1m, the Graun feed has this:
"Perhaps it’s a good thing that schools are not reopening fully before the summer holidays. According to some new research from academics at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) and elsewhere, “if schools reopen fully or in phases in June or July without a large-scale and effective [test-and-trace] strategy, a second wave would be around 2.2-2.5 times larger than the first Covid-19 wave in the UK.”
The paper defines an effective test-and-trace strategy as one in which at least 50% of those with symptomatic infections are tested, and at least 40% of their contacts are traced.
The government has not published any data yet on its new test-and-trace system, and so it is impossible to know whether or not it is working well enough to meet the LSHTM benchmark for efficiency."
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
I wonder how much the Great British Public have taken on board how bad things have been in the UK compared with elsewhere, and how slowly things are improving compared with other countries.
As other countries start to report zero deaths and zero cases on a regular basis, what will happen to the government's reputation?
We have been used to thinking we kick everyone's arse. And even when we haven't, it's been in a land far away and no one really understands the dynamics of, say, the Mahdi Army or whether we would or would not have been better off in the Euro (we naturally assume we did the right thing and who's to say we didn't).
This has two elements which I think will promote awareness. The first as you say, we can see people in Paris in cafes and hear other countries with no death toll and opening up; and as with the Cummings case, everyone is stuck inside watching this stuff. There is nothing to take peoples' mind or attention away. No soaps, no sports, to watch or play, so nothing. It's a perfect climate for people to pay attention to what the government is up to.
Yes, it is tragic how we have blown what should have been a significant advantage, having seen what happened in Italy.
An additional key factor that you don’t mention is our discharging hospital patients into care homes without testing them.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
The government has been pretty crap, and they're not improving, BUT if you look at the minutes they were following the SAGE science religiously. "Don't lock down yet", "quarantine is pointless", "masks don't work"
It would take a very brave government to entirely ignore expert scientific advice at the outset of a plague. I doubt Starmer would have done any different
When the time comes for judgements, which will be harsh, the total failure of Britain's scientific elite must mean that the boffins pay a price, as well as the politicians
Johnson isn't the Prime Minister the country needs, or the one I wanted, but he's the one we have got. I, for one, was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because that trust is necessary if we are to get through the epidemic in one piece. For a while I thought he was sincere in wanting to do the best thing, even if that meant pretending he was Churchill.
He's totally given up now.
Yes, I get the sense that he's tired (a new father), still quite ill, and also uninterested in the tedious, grinding, painful job of getting us through a pandemic, when he wanted to be the jolly leader taking us on to Brexit glory
Said it before and I'll say it again: he'll be gone next year
Though if that is the case (and you're probably right), tough. He ought to go now.
Seriously. Imagine that our Brexit future comes down to a Great Euro Summit.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
The government has been pretty crap, and they're not improving, BUT if you look at the minutes they were following the SAGE science religiously. "Don't lock down yet", "quarantine is pointless", "masks don't work"
It would take a very brave government to entirely ignore expert scientific advice at the outset of a plague. I doubt Starmer would have done any different
When the time comes for judgements, which will be harsh, the total failure of Britain's scientific elite must mean that the boffins pay a price, as well as the politicians
Johnson isn't the Prime Minister the country needs, or the one I wanted, but he's the one we have got. I, for one, was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because that trust is necessary if we are to get through the epidemic in one piece. For a while I thought he was sincere in wanting to do the best thing, even if that meant pretending he was Churchill.
He's totally given up now.
Yes, I get the sense that he's tired (a new father), still quite ill, and also uninterested in the tedious, grinding, painful job of getting us through a pandemic, when he wanted to be the jolly leader taking us on to Brexit glory
Said it before and I'll say it again: he'll be gone next year
Though if that is the case (and you're probably right), tough. He ought to go now.
Seriously. Imagine that our Brexit future comes down to a Great Euro Summit.
Do you really want Bozza batting for Britain?
Never mind Northern Ireland as well. I'm seriously concerned that he hardly seems to be coming out of his lair these days, or is unable to do so.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
I wonder how much the Great British Public have taken on board how bad things have been in the UK compared with elsewhere, and how slowly things are improving compared with other countries.
As other countries start to report zero deaths and zero cases on a regular basis, what will happen to the government's reputation?
We have been used to thinking we kick everyone's arse. And even when we haven't, it's been in a land far away and no one really understands the dynamics of, say, the Mahdi Army or whether we would or would not have been better off in the Euro (we naturally assume we did the right thing and who's to say we didn't).
This has two elements which I think will promote awareness. The first as you say, we can see people in Paris in cafes and hear other countries with no death toll and opening up; and as with the Cummings case, everyone is stuck inside watching this stuff. There is nothing to take peoples' mind or attention away. No soaps, no sports, to watch or play, so nothing. It's a perfect climate for people to pay attention to what the government is up to.
I'd like to have been in the Britain you've clearly been in all your life. From where I sit, as a nation we've been in decline (slow becoming fast) since 1850, and made only too aware of the fact, with brief but cheering interregnum of Thatcher, Harrier Jump Jets etc. era that ended decisively with the debacle of the second invasion of Iraq. I don't recognise this confident expectation that we'll be better off than other countries - I think if it comes out in the wash that we've done about middling, or even poor to middling, nobody will be at all surprised.
That's interesting. I just don't think it affects people all that much while they can go down the pub or to the footie. But it may be different when all they can do is to study the government's performance on these matters. The second invasion of Iraq was chock full of failures but none that you'd notice with an untrained eye. Look at Remembrance Day parades and the lauding of our "heroes". Why a whole organisation was set up to help those heroes and heroes don't fail, now, do they?
I was a late-teenager attending uni at the time of Iraq 2. I was opposed to joining America in Iraq, but I did firmly believe (perhaps British exceptionalism at work) that our military was the best-trained and amongst the most capable in the world, and would acquit iself extremely well - and so it seemed in the beginning with Basra. I think the eventual outcome (or lack of outcome) of the conflict shattered that - it certainly did for me.
Your point about politicians being under greater scrutiny during this time is undoubtedly true. And whatever else this is, it has certainly (so far) been a huge missed opportunity to really unite the country.
You're wrong to single out Britain.
All of the West, and Western civilisation, is in decline: and has been since around 2000. The inflection point might have been 9/11
The decline is relative, but it is speeding up, and it could become absolute in time. Even Rome fell into ruin. America, the pre-eminent western power, is leading the march downhill.
I'm not sure anything can reverse this. We had a pretty damn good 400 years. It's just a shame it happened on our watch.
The defeat of the Gang of Four was a long ago and far off tipping point.
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
The government has been pretty crap, and they're not improving, BUT if you look at the minutes they were following the SAGE science religiously. "Don't lock down yet", "quarantine is pointless", "masks don't work"
It would take a very brave government to entirely ignore expert scientific advice at the outset of a plague. I doubt Starmer would have done any different
When the time comes for judgements, which will be harsh, the total failure of Britain's scientific elite must mean that the boffins pay a price, as well as the politicians
No, the problem was that Johnson did not take seriously the risks posed by the emerging pandemic, and so was never in a position to seriously challenge anyone based on an informed position rather than his own predisposition not to overreact. By contrast, what Starmer does seem to be good at is ensuring that he is well briefed and properly up to speed with issues.
What our PM could reasonably have done was to ask reasonable questions to challenge the advice given such as: - is the scientific community here united in its recommendations, if not what are the differences of opinion? - why is what you are advocating manifestly different from what is being recommended and implemented in other countries, also based on scientific advice which you presumably think is flawed, and why do you think that? - is what you are advocating consistent with the advice coming from the WHO? - some countries already appear to have contained the virus against all expectations, so what can we learn from them and are there any measures they have taken that you are ruling out, if so why? - given that no-one really knows for sure how this virus is going to develop, is it not better to err on the side of caution initially until we know more?
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
Is racism against black people worse than racism against Jews? I thought Labour had moved beyond this kind of stuff. I have to say this is incredibly disappointing.
FFS! “We kneel with all those opposing racism by whomever it is committed and against whomever” is what needs to be said.
And when are women going to get a look in in this identity Top Trumps game? Or is misogyny against women - even when committed by black men, say, just not important any more?
As I said, I'm hoping it's just a clumsily worded attempt to climb on the bandwagon. However, I will now be looking for statements from him on racism targeted towards Asians specifically. After Patel's speech in the house yesterday I fear that Asians will become problem immigrants for Labour like Jews have been for the last 5 years.
Just in case not mentioned I see Trump has gone off on one again, suggesting the 75 year old man pushed over by police was in fact a set up. Didn't actually fall badly according to Trump and was Antifa anyway.
Obviously had a blood bag attached to the back of his head!
According to Trump Mr Gugino appeared to "scan police communications in order to black out the equipment".
Trump wants to withdraw the US from the WHO. (How's that going?) Now he imagines that a peaceful demonstrator's smartphone was a ray gun or some device he was about to use to knock out police communications equipment. He's had a big fence installed to protect the presidential palace, clearly not feeling his bunker alone provides sufficient peace of mind. He's crackers. How much more will it take for Mike Pence to step up to the mark and 25th him?
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
The government has been pretty crap, and they're not improving, BUT if you look at the minutes they were following the SAGE science religiously. "Don't lock down yet", "quarantine is pointless", "masks don't work"
It would take a very brave government to entirely ignore expert scientific advice at the outset of a plague. I doubt Starmer would have done any different
When the time comes for judgements, which will be harsh, the total failure of Britain's scientific elite must mean that the boffins pay a price, as well as the politicians
No, the problem was that Johnson did not take seriously the risks posed by the emerging pandemic, and so was never in a position to seriously challenge anyone based on an informed position rather than his own predisposition not to overreact. By contrast, what Starmer does seem to be good at is ensuring that he is well briefed and properly up to speed with issues.
What our PM could reasonably have done was to ask reasonable questions to challenge the advice given such as: - is the scientific community here united in its recommendations, if not what are the differences of opinion? - why is what you are advocating manifestly different from what is being recommended and implemented in other countries, also based on scientific advice which you presumably think is flawed, and why do you think that? - is what you are advocating consistent with the advice coming from the WHO? - some countries already appear to have contained the virus against all expectations, so what can we learn from them and are there any measures they have taken that you are ruling out, if so why? - given that no-one really knows for sure how this virus is going to develop, is it not better to err on the side of caution initially until we know more?
Given that Starmer didn't even criticise having no restrictions on entry to the country I doubt he would have done anything different.
Its possible that he might have talked and talked and talked and been even slower at making decisions.
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."
Is racism against black people worse than racism against Jews? I thought Labour had moved beyond this kind of stuff. I have to say this is incredibly disappointing.
FFS! “We kneel with all those opposing racism by whomever it is committed and against whomever” is what needs to be said.
And when are women going to get a look in in this identity Top Trumps game? Or is misogyny against women - even when committed by black men, say, just not important any more?
As I said, I'm hoping it's just a clumsily worded attempt to climb on the bandwagon. However, I will now be looking for statements from him on racism targeted towards Asians specifically. After Patel's speech in the house yesterday I fear that Asians will become problem immigrants for Labour like Jews have been for the last 5 years.
If Labour were where they say they are they would have a dead easy win by promoting very bright black people to top positions - and they would be there already. Step forward um....
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
I hope than far more people than Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this - skin colour is irrelevant (as always) - and I think they will - Starmer is a poseur. He`s reminding me of that prize bell-end Trudeau.
It does look a bit ... well you know.
But it does not imo insult other minorities. An attack by Conservative Asian politicians along those lines would be poor form. As others have said, the main point is policies to address the issue. If they are not forthcoming the charge would indeed be "poseur" and it would be merited. But I hope Labour under Starmer WILL have such policies. Jury is out on whether he is serious about the equality agenda or will seek to downplay it for perceived electoral reasons.
Ah the good old leftie double standards on display. You were telling Casino earlier he should be more careful because their was a perception that his guest analogy could be racist.
Now you are telling MaxPB who is saying what Starmer said could be seen as racist that he shouldn't be saying that.
Make up your mind is racism in the eye of the beholder or not?
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
The Johnson outfit is the most egregiously incompetent government in my lifetime. It isn't however the incompetence of people who are struggling and find themselves out of their depth. It's an unwillingness to engage with reality.
The government has been pretty crap, and they're not improving, BUT if you look at the minutes they were following the SAGE science religiously. "Don't lock down yet", "quarantine is pointless", "masks don't work"
It would take a very brave government to entirely ignore expert scientific advice at the outset of a plague. I doubt Starmer would have done any different
When the time comes for judgements, which will be harsh, the total failure of Britain's scientific elite must mean that the boffins pay a price, as well as the politicians
No, the problem was that Johnson did not take seriously the risks posed by the emerging pandemic, and so was never in a position to seriously challenge anyone based on an informed position rather than his own predisposition not to overreact. By contrast, what Starmer does seem to be good at is ensuring that he is well briefed and properly up to speed with issues.
What our PM could reasonably have done was to ask reasonable questions to challenge the advice given such as: - is the scientific community here united in its recommendations, if not what are the differences of opinion? - why is what you are advocating manifestly different from what is being recommended and implemented in other countries, also based on scientific advice which you presumably think is flawed, and why do you think that? - is what you are advocating consistent with the advice coming from the WHO? - some countries already appear to have contained the virus against all expectations, so what can we learn from them and are there any measures they have taken that you are ruling out, if so why? - given that no-one really knows for sure how this virus is going to develop, is it not better to err on the side of caution initially until we know more?
Because of the mistakes made at the start, the UK wasn't going to be a Germany or Denmark, let alone a South Korea or Japan. It could have been a France or a Netherlands, which would still be better than what we are actually going to end up. The blame for that has to lie squarely with the government.
The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?
Germany has fewer daily cases and deaths right now.
Germany has a government that was much more accurate about explaining the problem to the public, not one thatswung from complacency to panic in a few days, as ours did.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
There is now a list of 60 statues that are unacceptable apparently.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
There is now a list of 60 statues that are unacceptable apparently.
Bet it doesn't contain any left wing antisemites or racists....
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
There is now a list of 60 statues that are unacceptable apparently.
You have to wonder why a lot of them are on the list. Some are simply military commanders.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
There is now a list of 60 statues that are unacceptable apparently.
You have to wonder why a lot of them are on the list. Some are simply military commanders.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
There is now a list of 60 statues that are unacceptable apparently.
You have to wonder why a lot of them are on the list. Some are simply military commanders.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
There is now a list of 60 statues that are unacceptable apparently.
You have to wonder why a lot of them are on the list. Some are simply military commanders.
You have answered you own question.
I assume Nelson has got to go, too?
They were talking about him on the news earlier...
Looks like Rhodes Won't Fall in Oriel College, tonight
Good. At some point the mob must be challenged, and pushed back
I understand Oriel have a Very Large (£100m) donation hanging on their decision.
Why would anyone try and leave a legacy as a philanthropist if they are going to be removed from history on a whim at a later date?
The rather wet Provost at the time this last came up (an ex civil servant) was hopeless and lost a lot of goodwill with old college members.
Hopefully the current Provost won't make the same mistake.
Ex-chaplain Nigel Biggar might have something to say (if he isn't a non-person by now).
You underestimate the emotional power of this strange, Dianas-death-like western spasm.
Everyone at Oriel will move in a world of liberal-left pieties, this is academe. They will have friends and colleagues on social media screaming at them to "do the right thing". Anyone who wants the statue kept will be terrified of speaking out, in case they get cancelled. Careers are ending around the world on this issue.
It would be hard enough for a private company to resist this intense pressure, but an Oxford college, with all its angry students and professors, seeking approval from their peers?
I predict they will yield, or they will quietly let some hoons do it for them
It's Karma of a sort after their disdain for Mrs Thatcher.
BTW has anyone consulted Oriel's distinguished fellows Newman, Keble and Pusey on the matter? Or will Keble College and Pusey House be razed to the ground anyway.
This one being removed in London. removing it from out the front of a museum that explains this blokes role in history. Surely the statue is prime for a plaque saying see him, he built all this but.....come inside and learn the full story.
This one being removed in London. removing it from out the front of a museum that explains this blokes role in history. Surely the statue is prime for a plaque saying see him, he built all this but.....come inside and learn the full story.
Too nuanced. Just think of the countless millions that have been triggered simply by walking past this statute of... who, exactly?
Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
But here's the funny thing (and I despise the anti-progress Green Party every bit as much as I despise Jeremy Corbyn), without the eco-fascists, would electric cars have had the same level of government support? Or, without the IRA, would there have been any reform of Northern Ireland?
Just as maybe you need an occasional Donald Trump to drag politicians back to caring more about their own populations.
Maybe we need the crazies on the edge sometimes.
I’m not letting you get away with that. The IRA set back the cause of reform not advanced it.
There was a civil rights movement and brave people like Gerry Fitt and Seamus Mallon and John Hume. And had the British government stood with them and listened to them reform, which was starting, would have happened. Instead, they did not, the IRA killed and maimed people and in the end NI ended up with something pretty much like what they could have got in 1974 - “Sunningdale for slow learners” as Seamus Mallon tartly and accurately put it.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
There is now a list of 60 statues that are unacceptable apparently.
You have to wonder why a lot of them are on the list. Some are simply military commanders.
You have answered you own question.
I assume Nelson has got to go, too?
I believe the rule is everybody now has to go, unless they were a Marxist, then we can excuse them.
O/T Just had a couple of interactions with Betfair, who have not settled my Sportsbook Bet on Biden getting the Democratic Presidential Nomination. I'm not sure they are waiting for some sort of official announcement by the Dems? But all the news channels carried the news that Biden had the requisite number of votes.
Anyone else having this problem?
Are they waiting to see whether Biden actually appears on the ballot paper in November? Because there must be some doubt about whether that will happen given his health.
Could this revolution possibly devour its children? I hope it does so before burning the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library to the ground rather than after.
There is now a list of 60 statues that are unacceptable apparently.
You have to wonder why a lot of them are on the list. Some are simply military commanders.
You have answered you own question.
I assume Nelson has got to go, too?
I believe the rule is everybody now has to go, unless they were a Marxist, then we can excuse them.
No, I think you have to be a black Marxist
BTW they want Harold Wilson gone as well. No joke. Well, it might have been a joke but it's now become serious
Comments
1) To take place on time at the current location?
2) Without fans?
Starmer made a voluntary, what I hope was only a clumsy statement which as we have seen, is also offensive.
Does anyone know whether the 750k is going?
I think the point about capitalism is that it lifts people far more effectively than socialism ever has or could.
I think you're trying to flog a dead horse here.
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/sir-keir-starmer-achieved-more-in-four-days-than-his-predecessor-did-in-four-years-jewish-groups-1.498888
PS: None of this "kneeling" stuff proves that much in any case imo. It's about actions, e.g. proposed policies to address the issue.
Schools climbdown to appease hard left Councils and teaching unions absolutely shameful and damaging to our children.
Alok Sharma (I know it's not just him): no hope > no guidance > no idea. When is the government going to provide the guidance for pubs etc to reopen and sort the 2 metres thing out?
GRRRR.
At some juncture Johnson is going to have to grasp this nettle.
He is such a dreadful coward.
https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1270367036066103297?s=21
https://twitter.com/philiusboro/status/1270367266719379459?s=21
I'm also disappointed that he is still a complete policy blank sheet. Where are Labour's ideas on combating racism by the police, where are Labour's ideas on combating racism in the workplace?
This is becoming a pattern, he's good at spotting deficiencies but not very good at coming up with policies.
https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1270385715742941189
I do have senior moments but not on here.
Yet.
Well, except the bit about being good at spotting deficiencies. It seems to usually take him a week or two longer than everyone else to notice.
I am rational and unprejudiced
You is an ideologue and bigoted
He have been cancelled as not human.
I suspect he does care about racism against Jews as his wife is Jewish and he is raising his kids as Jewish. I just think you're being a bit daft about this, twisting a comment he made to accuse him of something for which there is no evidence in favour and much evidence to the contrary.
And if you want to get onto the topic of whether the leader of any major party is racist, you might want to focus on the one who used a racist term whose last outing by a senior British politician was in Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech.
Your point about politicians being under greater scrutiny during this time is undoubtedly true. And whatever else this is, it has certainly (so far) been a huge missed opportunity to really unite the country.
But it does not imo insult other minorities. An attack by Conservative Asian politicians along those lines would be poor form. As others have said, the main point is policies to address the issue. If they are not forthcoming the charge would indeed be "poseur" and it would be merited. But I hope Labour under Starmer WILL have such policies. Jury is out on whether he is serious about the equality agenda or will seek to downplay it for perceived electoral reasons.
Plenty of folk here (including the 'here' of PB) thought it had enough to do with them to enable them to sneer at it as meaningless virtue signalling that was going to bankrupt Nike. They seem more angry than sneery now
The underlying problem for this country is that few are as good as they think they are and this goes double for those organisations which think they are world leaders.
He's totally given up now.
Yes there will be those younger cadres who will quickly learn to ignore the risks - at least until they infect Granny and she dies on them. But vast numbers of people who have the spending power are not going to rush back into pubs, theatres, shops and restaurants simply because we want them to. They will quite happily continue to sit at home and order everything via the internet and wait until after the winter to see if that second wave materialises.
The country was already shutting down long before the Government imposed the rules. And it will take a very long time indeed for it to open up again. It will be many years before we get back to the sorts of spending we saw before the crisis and much of that will have transferred online. Most small independent shops and particularly food and entertainment venues are already dead. They just haven't realised it yet.
This was inevitable as soon as we decided on our initial voluntary lockdown.
Policies? The next GE is ages away.
Havant
Stevenage
Adur
Woking
Harlow
Gloucester
Exeter
Hastings
East Devon
Cotswold
Gosport
Arun
North Hertfordshire
Worthing
Chichester
Waverley
North Norfolk
City of London
Eastbourne
Rugby
East Lindsey
Harborough
Lincoln
Tewkesbury
Hart
Chesterfield
Breckland
Torridge
Ryedale
Teignbridge
Dorset
North East Derbyshire
North Devon
Ipswich
West Lindsey
Broadland
Stroud
Mansfield
Uttlesford
Maldon
Hertsmere
East Hampshire
Cheltenham
West Devon
Broxbourne
Comparing my experience of state schools as a 1980's pupil and a 2010's teacher, it's noticeable how highly-strung the system has become. I'm not sure that's been a wholly good thing.
I'd love everyone to be in schools now, even one day a week. I'd love broadcast education to be better. That won't happen, because it means admitting that full-time school is a while off. (Though the BBC and Oak National Academy have done impressive things).
But in the grand scheme of things, the kids will be all right. This is the worst thing to happen since World War 2, and the UK has handled it badly. But it's a pinprick compared with a total war.
Why would anyone try and leave a legacy as a philanthropist if they are going to be removed from history on a whim at a later date?
The rather wet Provost at the time this last came up (an ex civil servant) was hopeless and lost a lot of goodwill with old college members.
Hopefully the current Provost won't make the same mistake.
Ex-chaplain Nigel Biggar might have something to say (if he isn't a non-person by now).
And when are women going to get a look in in this identity Top Trumps game? Or is misogyny against women - even when committed by black men, say, just not important any more?
https://twitter.com/BellRibeiroAddy/status/1270404888757972993
Anyone else having this problem?
Starmer landslide.
#pbonthepulse.
I wonder if it would be different if it was Israel where slavery was endemic.
As for the London government's reluctance to do the experiment of reducing from 2m to 1m, the Graun feed has this:
"Perhaps it’s a good thing that schools are not reopening fully before the summer holidays. According to some new research from academics at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) and elsewhere, “if schools reopen fully or in phases in June or July without a large-scale and effective [test-and-trace] strategy, a second wave would be around 2.2-2.5 times larger than the first Covid-19 wave in the UK.”
The paper defines an effective test-and-trace strategy as one in which at least 50% of those with symptomatic infections are tested, and at least 40% of their contacts are traced.
The government has not published any data yet on its new test-and-trace system, and so it is impossible to know whether or not it is working well enough to meet the LSHTM benchmark for efficiency."
An additional key factor that you don’t mention is our discharging hospital patients into care homes without testing them.
https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1270404696285630465
Seriously. Imagine that our Brexit future comes down to a Great Euro Summit.
Do you really want Bozza batting for Britain?
https://twitter.com/markniesse/status/1270310783709216770?s=19
What our PM could reasonably have done was to ask reasonable questions to challenge the advice given such as:
- is the scientific community here united in its recommendations, if not what are the differences of opinion?
- why is what you are advocating manifestly different from what is being recommended and implemented in other countries, also based on scientific advice which you presumably think is flawed, and why do you think that?
- is what you are advocating consistent with the advice coming from the WHO?
- some countries already appear to have contained the virus against all expectations, so what can we learn from them and are there any measures they have taken that you are ruling out, if so why?
- given that no-one really knows for sure how this virus is going to develop, is it not better to err on the side of caution initially until we know more?
Trump wants to withdraw the US from the WHO. (How's that going?) Now he imagines that a peaceful demonstrator's smartphone was a ray gun or some device he was about to use to knock out police communications equipment. He's had a big fence installed to protect the presidential palace, clearly not feeling his bunker alone provides sufficient peace of mind. He's crackers. How much more will it take for Mike Pence to step up to the mark and 25th him?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018
Its possible that he might have talked and talked and talked and been even slower at making decisions.
Now you are telling MaxPB who is saying what Starmer said could be seen as racist that he shouldn't be saying that.
Make up your mind is racism in the eye of the beholder or not?
BTW has anyone consulted Oriel's distinguished fellows Newman, Keble and Pusey on the matter? Or will Keble College and Pusey House be razed to the ground anyway.
https://twitter.com/Rabyah_Khan/status/1270393341214183427
There was a civil rights movement and brave people like Gerry Fitt and Seamus Mallon and John Hume. And had the British government stood with them and listened to them reform, which was starting, would have happened. Instead, they did not, the IRA killed and maimed people and in the end NI ended up with something pretty much like what they could have got in 1974 - “Sunningdale for slow learners” as Seamus Mallon tartly and accurately put it.