To still be banging on about Cummings doing an isolated trip when thousands are marching together and there's violence etc - seriously get your priorities sorted.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
I would happily endorse the removal of any statues of British people who played any role in the Irish famine. It was a monstrous crime and another example of our problematic history. The Atlantic slave economy and the plantations at their core built on the British colonial experiment in Ireland, as you know, so the two issues are of course related. Since I am part Irish I'm certainly not going to deny that Irish lives matter, I'd like to see them mattering a whole lot more, in a united Ireland by consent. I'm just a bit confused as to why you are bringing it up since we weren't talking about it.
]Because you asking people to apolgise for evernts outside there experience is as logical as me holding you responsible for potato blight.
When did I ask anybody to apologise? I am just glad that a man who profited from the greatest crime in the history of humanity is no longer being honoured with a statue in one of our cities. I am genuinely surprised that is a controversial view, TBH.
You are genuinely surprised that a bunch of white extremists telling the people of Bristol what statues they can and can’t have because of their own particular views on how people should respond to race and racism is controversial?
It’s a view.
Yes it is surprising to me. The guy is a mass murderer, the statue should have been removed years ago. Like I say, the crowd I saw was mixed, but I don't know why the race of the people involved is important.
Wasn't the Prophet Mohammed a slave owner ?
Would you favour the closure of mosques because of it ?
Sure, why not?
I'm going to file pulling down a statue to a slave trader in the same kind of category as driving to Barnhard Castle during lockdown - sure its illegal technically but I honestly couldn't care less about it.
Its right not to have statues to slave traders in 21st century. Maybe the statue can be recovered and put in a museum somewhere but not out and about on display.
Surely, the right response is to destroy statues of Muhammad?
Living dangerously Foxy!!!!!
More likely converted to Islam
No, just teasing. Obviously there are no statues of Muhammad to tear down. Muslims don't like idols.
I take the point of view that Mohammad was a false prophet, and there is little in common between Islam and Christianity.
Little in common? Are you sure?
Yes. The God described in the New Testament is very different to the one in the Koran. They are incompatible.
What about the one in the Old Testament?
The Old Testament certainly includes depictions of a vengeful, violent intolerant God, but is superseded by the New Testament.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
Some people (not saying anyone here) seem more concerned with violence against statues than violence against individuals.
To me violence against individuals is worse than violence against businesses, which is worse than violence against statues etc
I care far more about broken windows and businesses attacked than statues etc
One often leads to another. It emboldens the mob. See 2011, where the police went softly softly and before they knew it we had widespread rioting and looting across a number of cities.
The police were fucking terrified of actual violence. They'd got high on their own supply 'dealing' with student protestors who let the police know in advance where they were going to be. The police were caught like rabbits in headlights when people actually looking for trouble turned up in 2011.
Don't forget ladies and gentlemen, that fishing makes up 0.1% of our GDP
Throwing the “fisherpeople” under the bus in 1973 was perhaps where modern Euroscepticism started.
It may be insignificant, but it seems offends a sense of fair play. The EU would do well to cave on this in exchange for British compromise on level playing field etc.
It's a complete myth. It was losing access to waters for long distance trawling as coastal limits were increased that decimated the British fishing industry. The EEC was just a scapegoat.
You have no idea of the feelings of Scottish Fishermen at the time whose fury knew no bounds and still does
I have never met a fisherman yet who would not hoover the seas clean of fish. When I talked with a Fisheries Protection Vessel Capt, he said that most of their work was trying to keep UK fisherman from ignoring the rules.
You have obviously never depended on fishing for your livelihood or your communities
No I have not. And you would think that for those to whom it did matter, hoovering the sea clean of fish would matter.
Ydoethur, is there a link to back up the claim that the good people of Bristol voted to retain the statue ?. This link posted earlier suggests that the usual clued up political class are flexing their muscles. Seen it many times in local govt. Thanks
I’m afraid I don’t have a link. I was a student at the time and was very lightly involved on the edges, which is how I know about it. There was a BBC programme on the subject with interviews from those descended from Colston’s victims who wanted to keep it, but it doesn’t appear to be on YouTube.
There was a petition to get rid of it again a couple of years ago, which attracted several thousand signatures - not many of them from Bristol though as it turns out. I think that was the context of the plaque that this row was about.
What bothers me more is that if a bunch of white supremacists had tried to get rid of the statue to hide Bristol’s past, this is exactly the way they would go about it. 48 hours and it will be forgotten about and nobody will think about Colston again.
Ahh thanks. As usual I can see all sides of the arguement. Never mind Prekier leafue in a few weeks and cricket after.
I’m fascinated by those posters who think that any kind of metric based on performance is going to be relevant to the job security of Cabinet ministers under Boris Johnson. Did they not notice the treatment of Julian Smith?
Nor indeed Geoffrey Cox, for some time the darling of many on here. And a shoo in for PM. Let go for the crime of producing honest legal opinion inconvenient to the Government.
This is the nub of it. Do we wipe out signs of the past because they are unpleasant?
How would we know what had happened?
The statue isn't some warning from history, it's a hagiography saying what a thoroughly nice chap he was. It was erected over a hundred years after he died when slavery was illegal.
Yup. It’s like all those statues celebrating the confederacy in the southern USA - mostly erected during the late C19th/early C20th.
Almost spot on. Just need to change "will" to "won't" to be truthful.
How so? Lots of people faced very swift justice after the 2011 riots for instance.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I'm rather afraid that the lunatic fringe will be let off because the authorities are afraid of being accused of racism, and of resultant escalations in violence. Although those things may well end up happening regardless.
If Cummings does sack PP and Mogg in the reshuffle, what intellectual titans are currently languishing on the back benches ready to take over?
If brown-nosed sycophancy is a crucial qualification, and now that the Ross England scandal has finally blown over, surely the diminutive Alun Cairns deserves his place back in Cabinet.
Ydoethur, is there a link to back up the claim that the good people of Bristol voted to retain the statue ?. This link posted earlier suggests that the usual clued up political class are flexing their muscles. Seen it many times in local govt. Thanks
I’m afraid I don’t have a link. I was a student at the time and was very lightly involved on the edges, which is how I know about it. There was a BBC programme on the subject with interviews from those descended from Colston’s victims who wanted to keep it, but it doesn’t appear to be on YouTube.
There was a petition to get rid of it again a couple of years ago, which attracted several thousand signatures - not many of them from Bristol though as it turns out. I think that was the context of the plaque that this row was about.
What bothers me more is that if a bunch of white supremacists had tried to get rid of the statue to hide Bristol’s past, this is exactly the way they would go about it. 48 hours and it will be forgotten about and nobody will think about Colston again.
I had no idea until today that we had statues up of slavers. The fact that one stood in the centre of a major core city is pretty nauseating TBH.
The country is full from top to bottom with monuments that many people find objectionable, or would find objectionable if they knew more about the figures whom they commemorated.
Nobody tell the Irish about the statue of Cromwell outside Parliament.
Though as I noted when I visited Parliament I love the randomness of the floor plaques in Westminster Hall. You pass one saying Nelson Mandela spoke here, then the very next one is about Charles I being tried for treason, then its about a monarch lying in state, then talking about Warren Hastings.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
I would happily endorse the removal of any statues of British people who played any role in the Irish famine. It was a monstrous crime and another example of our problematic history. The Atlantic slave economy and the plantations at their core built on the British colonial experiment in Ireland, as you know, so the two issues are of course related. Since I am part Irish I'm certainly not going to deny that Irish lives matter, I'd like to see them mattering a whole lot more, in a united Ireland by consent. I'm just a bit confused as to why you are bringing it up since we weren't talking about it.
]Because you asking people to apolgise for evernts outside there experience is as logical as me holding you responsible for potato blight.
When did I ask anybody to apologise? I am just glad that a man who profited from the greatest crime in the history of humanity is no longer being honoured with a statue in one of our cities. I am genuinely surprised that is a controversial view, TBH.
You are genuinely surprised that a bunch of white extremists telling the people of Bristol what statues they can and can’t have because of their own particular views on how people should respond to race and racism is controversial?
It’s a view.
Yes it is surprising to me. The guy is a mass murderer, the statue should have been removed years ago. Like I say, the crowd I saw was mixed, but I don't know why the race of the people involved is important.
Wasn't the Prophet Mohammed a slave owner ?
Would you favour the closure of mosques because of it ?
Sure, why not?
I'm going to file pulling down a statue to a slave trader in the same kind of category as driving to Barnhard Castle during lockdown - sure its illegal technically but I honestly couldn't care less about it.
Its right not to have statues to slave traders in 21st century. Maybe the statue can be recovered and put in a museum somewhere but not out and about on display.
Surely, the right response is to destroy statues of Muhammad?
Living dangerously Foxy!!!!!
More likely converted to Islam
No, just teasing. Obviously there are no statues of Muhammad to tear down. Muslims don't like idols.
I take the point of view that Mohammad was a false prophet, and there is little in common between Islam and Christianity.
Little in common? Are you sure?
Yes. The God described in the New Testament is very different to the one in the Koran. They are incompatible.
What about the one in the Old Testament?
The Old Testament certainly includes depictions of a vengeful, violent intolerant God, but is superseded by the New Testament.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
Or the whole of all of these religious stories can be interpreted as people of their time creating stories based upon the era they were living in.
God didn't change, our understanding didn't change, the invention of him changed depended upon who was inventing him.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
These Brits do love a good famine to keep the oppressed happy.
The Bengal Famine wasn't just an isolated incident.
Youre not even from Bengal
So you should apolgise too.
I'm sure one of my ancestors was from there.
But I apologise for the Irish famine, and we should give Northern Ireland back to the Republic as compensation.
I’m fascinated by those posters who think that any kind of metric based on performance is going to be relevant to the job security of Cabinet ministers under Boris Johnson. Did they not notice the treatment of Julian Smith?
Good performances won't save people from the sack (and in some cases might provoke it), but a really bad performance might provoke a sack since even the most loyal Borisites aren't going to be worth defending past a certain point when plenty more wait in the wings - they aren't Dominic Cummings, they don't get that much assurance of support.
I had no idea until today that we had statues up of slavers. The fact that one stood in the centre of a major core city is pretty nauseating TBH.
The country is full from top to bottom with monuments that many people find objectionable, or would find objectionable if they knew more about the figures whom they commemorated.
I’m sure that is the case, yes.
However, I can see how having a statute of this arsehole in Bristol harbour might get on people’s wick somewhat.
I had no idea until today that we had statues up of slavers. The fact that one stood in the centre of a major core city is pretty nauseating TBH.
The country is full from top to bottom with monuments that many people find objectionable, or would find objectionable if they knew more about the figures whom they commemorated.
I’m sure that is the case, yes.
However, I can see how having a statute of this arsehole in Bristol harbour might get on people’s wick somewhat.
It's when people think 'their wick' is the most important thing in the known universe that our paths diverge.
I had no idea until today that we had statues up of slavers. The fact that one stood in the centre of a major core city is pretty nauseating TBH.
The country is full from top to bottom with monuments that many people find objectionable, or would find objectionable if they knew more about the figures whom they commemorated.
I’m sure that is the case, yes.
However, I can see how having a statute of this arsehole in Bristol harbour might get on people’s wick somewhat.
There are lots of things that outrage people, we don't smash them all up. If you really want to have it removed, you do it via democratic means, but as we have established the people of Bristol when asked said no we want it to stay.
Now perhaps things have changed and they should be asked again. Thats fine and proper way to do it.
I had no idea until today that we had statues up of slavers. The fact that one stood in the centre of a major core city is pretty nauseating TBH.
The country is full from top to bottom with monuments that many people find objectionable, or would find objectionable if they knew more about the figures whom they commemorated.
I’m sure that is the case, yes.
However, I can see how having a statute of this arsehole in Bristol harbour might get on people’s wick somewhat.
Indeed. They can seek to have it removed, however. That it might prove difficult doesn't matter, since ripping it down probably just ensures more people will want to keep it up (on the basis that you cannot just rip them down) than would fight to keep it in place otherwise!
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
These Brits do love a good famine to keep the oppressed happy.
The Bengal Famine wasn't just an isolated incident.
Youre not even from Bengal
So you should apolgise too.
I'm sure one of my ancestors was from there.
But I apologise for the Irish famine, and we should give Northern Ireland back to the Republic as compensation.
I’m fascinated by those posters who think that any kind of metric based on performance is going to be relevant to the job security of Cabinet ministers under Boris Johnson. Did they not notice the treatment of Julian Smith?
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
I would happily endorse the removal of any statues of British people who played any role in the Irish famine. It was a monstrous crime and another example of our problematic history. The Atlantic slave economy and the plantations at their core built on the British colonial experiment in Ireland, as you know, so the two issues are of course related. Since I am part Irish I'm certainly not going to deny that Irish lives matter, I'd like to see them mattering a whole lot more, in a united Ireland by consent. I'm just a bit confused as to why you are bringing it up since we weren't talking about it.
]Because you asking people to apolgise for evernts outside there experience is as logical as me holding you responsible for potato blight.
When did I ask anybody to apologise? I am just glad that a man who profited from the greatest crime in the history of humanity is no longer being honoured with a statue in one of our cities. I am genuinely surprised that is a controversial view, TBH.
You are genuinely surprised that a bunch of white extremists telling the people of Bristol what statues they can and can’t have because of their own particular views on how people should respond to race and racism is controversial?
It’s a view.
Yes it is surprising to me. The guy is a mass murderer, the statue should have been removed years ago. Like I say, the crowd I saw was mixed, but I don't know why the race of the people involved is important.
Wasn't the Prophet Mohammed a slave owner ?
Would you favour the closure of mosques because of it ?
Sure, why not?
I'm going to file pulling down a statue to a slave trader in the same kind of category as driving to Barnhard Castle during lockdown - sure its illegal technically but I honestly couldn't care less about it.
Its right not to have statues to slave traders in 21st century. Maybe the statue can be recovered and put in a museum somewhere but not out and about on display.
Surely, the right response is to destroy statues of Muhammad?
Living dangerously Foxy!!!!!
More likely converted to Islam
No, just teasing. Obviously there are no statues of Muhammad to tear down. Muslims don't like idols.
I take the point of view that Mohammad was a false prophet, and there is little in common between Islam and Christianity.
Little in common? Are you sure?
Yes. The God described in the New Testament is very different to the one in the Koran. They are incompatible.
What about the one in the Old Testament?
The Old Testament certainly includes depictions of a vengeful, violent intolerant God, but is superseded by the New Testament.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
Or the whole of all of these religious stories can be interpreted as people of their time creating stories based upon the era they were living in.
God didn't change, our understanding didn't change, the invention of him changed depended upon who was inventing him.
It all depends on what you believe. No doubt Muslims believe me to be fundamentally mistaken, as do Bhuddists, Hindus, as well as Athiests, but mine is an unremarkable Christian view.
Boris and co are going to have to do more than send a tweet saying please play nice. With no school or college for most of the protesters for months, they will be out day in day it and if it gets hot, i can see real trouble ahead.
And of course the useless Mayor just tweets i am on your side, but please remember to stay 2m away from one another
Regarding Alastair's thread, I think it is more class than racism.
The middle and upper classes do well, and a lot of BAME aren't in those classes.
My grandfather turned up in this country from a country far away and he was instantly a member of the middle class.
Had he have been a manual worker working in the mills I'm not sure I'd have had the same life opportunities that I've enjoyed.
It's also a matter of education and attitudes to education.
The extreme example of this can be seen in the US. For example, very poor Chinese immigrants in New York have done very well in getting into the selective schools run by the state.
Too well. So well, in fact that the Mayor of New York has discussed a quota system to stop this -
Yup, I was raised by parents and grandparents who saw a good education as a gateway to a great life.
A school friend ended up as a step child in a Chinese family. He described it as being part of an engine designed to produce progress - for the family as a unit.
He was expected to work for virtually nothing in the family business.
In return all food, fees, loans, books & travel was provided by the family. When he went to university, he was given enough to ensure he didn't have to work. All contingent on getting good grades.
What he did have to do, was look after the house that was bought by the family as an investment - and fill it with his student friends as paying lodgers.
I had no idea until today that we had statues up of slavers. The fact that one stood in the centre of a major core city is pretty nauseating TBH.
The country is full from top to bottom with monuments that many people find objectionable, or would find objectionable if they knew more about the figures whom they commemorated.
Nobody tell the Irish about the statue of Cromwell outside Parliament.
I had no idea until today that we had statues up of slavers. The fact that one stood in the centre of a major core city is pretty nauseating TBH.
The country is full from top to bottom with monuments that many people find objectionable, or would find objectionable if they knew more about the figures whom they commemorated.
I’m sure that is the case, yes.
However, I can see how having a statute of this arsehole in Bristol harbour might get on people’s wick somewhat.
Indeed. They can seek to have it removed, however. That it might prove difficult doesn't matter, since ripping it down probably just ensures more people will want to keep it up (on the basis that you cannot just rip them down) than would fight to keep it in place otherwise!
Personally (and I happily concede my view carries no weight) I would add a monument commemorating the loss of life caused by the slave trade, and have them facing each other. The protest sculpture depicting the accommodation aboard a slave boat was quite effective and something like that might fit the bill.
There were already plans to add a plaque giving more information about Colston's slaving activities, but apparently the Mayor stopped it being added because the final wording ended up not being sufficiently condemnatory for him.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
I would happily endorse the removal of any statues of British people who played any role in the Irish famine. It was a monstrous crime and another example of our problematic history. The Atlantic slave economy and the plantations at their core built on the British colonial experiment in Ireland, as you know, so the two issues are of course related. Since I am part Irish I'm certainly not going to deny that Irish lives matter, I'd like to see them mattering a whole lot more, in a united Ireland by consent. I'm just a bit confused as to why you are bringing it up since we weren't talking about it.
]Because you asking people to apolgise for evernts outside there experience is as logical as me holding you responsible for potato blight.
When did I ask anybody to apologise? I am just glad that a man who profited from the greatest crime in the history of humanity is no longer being honoured with a statue in one of our cities. I am genuinely surprised that is a controversial view, TBH.
You are genuinely surprised that a bunch of white extremists telling the people of Bristol what statues they can and can’t have because of their own particular views on how people should respond to race and racism is controversial?
It’s a view.
Yes it is surprising to me. The guy is a mass murderer, the statue should have been removed years ago. Like I say, the crowd I saw was mixed, but I don't know why the race of the people involved is important.
Wasn't the Prophet Mohammed a slave owner ?
Would you favour the closure of mosques because of it ?
Sure, why not?
I'm going to file pulling down a statue to a slave trader in the same kind of category as driving to Barnhard Castle during lockdown - sure its illegal technically but I honestly couldn't care less about it.
Its right not to have statues to slave traders in 21st century. Maybe the statue can be recovered and put in a museum somewhere but not out and about on display.
Surely, the right response is to destroy statues of Muhammad?
Living dangerously Foxy!!!!!
More likely converted to Islam
No, just teasing. Obviously there are no statues of Muhammad to tear down. Muslims don't like idols.
I take the point of view that Mohammad was a false prophet, and there is little in common between Islam and Christianity.
Little in common? Are you sure?
Yes. The God described in the New Testament is very different to the one in the Koran. They are incompatible.
What about the one in the Old Testament?
The Old Testament certainly includes depictions of a vengeful, violent intolerant God, but is superseded by the New Testament.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
Or the whole of all of these religious stories can be interpreted as people of their time creating stories based upon the era they were living in.
God didn't change, our understanding didn't change, the invention of him changed depended upon who was inventing him.
It all depends on what you believe. No doubt Muslims believe me to be fundamentally mistaken, as do Bhuddists, Hindus, as well as Athiests, but mine is an unremarkable Christian view.
Believing your fiction is accurate is something you've got in common with Muslims etc, the issue is simply which holy beliefs your ancestors created that you believe in. Every ancient era created its own beliefs, there's nothing unique with Christianity in that.
Boris and co are going to have to do more than send a tweet saying please play nice. With no school or college for most of the protesters for months, they will be out day in day it and if it gets hot, i can see real trouble ahead.
And of course the useless Mayor just tweets i am on your side, but please remember to stay 2m away from one another
Boris and co are going to have to do more than send a tweet saying please play nice. With no school or college for most of the protesters for months, they will be out day in day it and if it gets hot, i can see real trouble ahead.
And of course the useless Mayor just tweets i am on your side, but please remember to stay 2m away from one another
Hot sunshine starts in about a week, according to the forecast
Riots generally continue until 1. The weather turns terrible or 2. Law enforcers finally react, with counter violence, as in 2011
Well on this case there is a #3 - they get coronavirus and feel like shit and have to stay home while mummy looks after them.
This is the nub of it. Do we wipe out signs of the past because they are unpleasant?
How would we know what had happened?
The statue isn't some warning from history, it's a hagiography saying what a thoroughly nice chap he was. It was erected over a hundred years after he died when slavery was illegal.
Yup. It’s like all those statues celebrating the confederacy in the southern USA - mostly erected during the late C19th/early C20th.
The trouble is that his name (and that of the Wills family, who weren't too politically correct either) permeate the city. They helped fund and build much of it in the 18th century. It includes landmarks as Colston Tower, Colston Hall, Colston Avenue, Colston Street, Colston's Girls' School, Colston's School, Colston's Primary School and Temple Colston School, as well as the statute.
You can't wipe out Colston and Wills without wiping out the whole story of Bristol. And how and why it came to be.
So I'd be inclined to keep them but have names of the slaves up there with them and alternative monuments and venues named after others too to balance it. And then for both to be taught and understood.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
I would happily endorse the removal of any statues of British people who played any role in the Irish famine. It was a monstrous crime and another example of our problematic history. The Atlantic slave economy and the plantations at their core built on the British colonial experiment in Ireland, as you know, so the two issues are of course related. Since I am part Irish I'm certainly not going to deny that Irish lives matter, I'd like to see them mattering a whole lot more, in a united Ireland by consent. I'm just a bit confused as to why you are bringing it up since we weren't talking about it.
]Because you asking people to apolgise for evernts outside there experience is as logical as me holding you responsible for potato blight.
When did I ask anybody to apologise? I am just glad that a man who profited from the greatest crime in the history of humanity is no longer being honoured with a statue in one of our cities. I am genuinely surprised that is a controversial view, TBH.
You are genuinely surprised that a bunch of white extremists telling the people of Bristol what statues they can and can’t have because of their own particular views on how people should respond to race and racism is controversial?
It’s a view.
Yes it is surprising to me. The guy is a mass murderer, the statue should have been removed years ago. Like I say, the crowd I saw was mixed, but I don't know why the race of the people involved is important.
Wasn't the Prophet Mohammed a slave owner ?
Would you favour the closure of mosques because of it ?
Sure, why not?
I'm going to file pulling down a statue to a slave trader in the same kind of category as driving to Barnhard Castle during lockdown - sure its illegal technically but I honestly couldn't care less about it.
Its right not to have statues to slave traders in 21st century. Maybe the statue can be recovered and put in a museum somewhere but not out and about on display.
Surely, the right response is to destroy statues of Muhammad?
Living dangerously Foxy!!!!!
More likely converted to Islam
No, just teasing. Obviously there are no statues of Muhammad to tear down. Muslims don't like idols.
I take the point of view that Mohammad was a false prophet, and there is little in common between Islam and Christianity.
Little in common? Are you sure?
Yes. The God described in the New Testament is very different to the one in the Koran. They are incompatible.
What about the one in the Old Testament?
The Old Testament certainly includes depictions of a vengeful, violent intolerant God, but is superseded by the New Testament.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
Or the whole of all of these religious stories can be interpreted as people of their time creating stories based upon the era they were living in.
God didn't change, our understanding didn't change, the invention of him changed depended upon who was inventing him.
It all depends on what you believe. No doubt Muslims believe me to be fundamentally mistaken, as do Bhuddists, Hindus, as well as Athiests, but mine is an unremarkable Christian view.
Believing your fiction is accurate is something you've got in common with Muslims etc, the issue is simply which holy beliefs your ancestors created that you believe in. Every ancient era created its own beliefs, there's nothing unique with Christianity in that.
Certainly so, but we will all find out in time who is right and who is wrong, just not on this earth.
Is anyone going to dredge Colston up from the deep?
I would expect so. It should not be too difficult
If it is Bronze then it is worth a fair bit ....
Where does one go to sell a bronze statue?
There are a couple of huge scrap metal dealers in Avonmouth. Cheque or account only, no cash just in case the scrap belongs to someone else - like Bristol City Council.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
I would happily endorse the removal of any statues of British people who played any role in the Irish famine. It was a monstrous crime and another example of our problematic history. The Atlantic slave economy and the plantations at their core built on the British colonial experiment in Ireland, as you know, so the two issues are of course related. Since I am part Irish I'm certainly not going to deny that Irish lives matter, I'd like to see them mattering a whole lot more, in a united Ireland by consent. I'm just a bit confused as to why you are bringing it up since we weren't talking about it.
]Because you asking people to apolgise for evernts outside there experience is as logical as me holding you responsible for potato blight.
When did I ask anybody to apologise? I am just glad that a man who profited from the greatest crime in the history of humanity is no longer being honoured with a statue in one of our cities. I am genuinely surprised that is a controversial view, TBH.
You are genuinely surprised that a bunch of white extremists telling the people of Bristol what statues they can and can’t have because of their own particular views on how people should respond to race and racism is controversial?
It’s a view.
Yes it is surprising to me. The guy is a mass murderer, the statue should have been removed years ago. Like I say, the crowd I saw was mixed, but I don't know why the race of the people involved is important.
Wasn't the Prophet Mohammed a slave owner ?
Would you favour the closure of mosques because of it ?
Sure, why not?
I'm going to file pulling down a statue to a slave trader in the same kind of category as driving to Barnhard Castle during lockdown - sure its illegal technically but I honestly couldn't care less about it.
Its right not to have statues to slave traders in 21st century. Maybe the statue can be recovered and put in a museum somewhere but not out and about on display.
Surely, the right response is to destroy statues of Muhammad?
Living dangerously Foxy!!!!!
More likely converted to Islam
No, just teasing. Obviously there are no statues of Muhammad to tear down. Muslims don't like idols.
I take the point of view that Mohammad was a false prophet, and there is little in common between Islam and Christianity.
Little in common? Are you sure?
Yes. The God described in the New Testament is very different to the one in the Koran. They are incompatible.
What about the one in the Old Testament?
The Old Testament certainly includes depictions of a vengeful, violent intolerant God, but is superseded by the New Testament.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
Or the whole of all of these religious stories can be interpreted as people of their time creating stories based upon the era they were living in.
God didn't change, our understanding didn't change, the invention of him changed depended upon who was inventing him.
It all depends on what you believe. No doubt Muslims believe me to be fundamentally mistaken, as do Bhuddists, Hindus, as well as Athiests, but mine is an unremarkable Christian view.
Believing your fiction is accurate is something you've got in common with Muslims etc, the issue is simply which holy beliefs your ancestors created that you believe in. Every ancient era created its own beliefs, there's nothing unique with Christianity in that.
Certainly so, but we will all find out in time who is right and who is wrong, just not on this earth.
The idea that people will suddenly decide to vote for Boris Johnson out of deference to the reputation of Churchill is a bizarre logical leap.
They won't but they will not support mindless vandalism and rioting. This will play into the governments hands unless labour come out strongly against and in favour of law and order
And in all this has Starmer submerged again to continue his letter writing?
This notion that disapproving of rampant criminality somehow logically entails support for the government of the day is an odd one. Did, for example, Douglas-Home benefit from the Great Train Robbery happening during his government's watch? If not, why not? It's the same difference.
Question: how are the rioters getting around London? I wouldn't count their activities as "essential travel" so I assume they're not being allowed to use public transport.
I’d be surprised if Colston returns TBH. I wasn’t aware until today that we had a statute of some slave-driving arsehole in the middle of one of our core cities. Can’t imagine much enthusiasm for putting him back there.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
I would happily endorse the removal of any statues of British people who played any role in the Irish famine. It was a monstrous crime and another example of our problematic history. The Atlantic slave economy and the plantations at their core built on the British colonial experiment in Ireland, as you know, so the two issues are of course related. Since I am part Irish I'm certainly not going to deny that Irish lives matter, I'd like to see them mattering a whole lot more, in a united Ireland by consent. I'm just a bit confused as to why you are bringing it up since we weren't talking about it.
]Because you asking people to apolgise for evernts outside there experience is as logical as me holding you responsible for potato blight.
When did I ask anybody to apologise? I am just glad that a man who profited from the greatest crime in the history of humanity is no longer being honoured with a statue in one of our cities. I am genuinely surprised that is a controversial view, TBH.
You are genuinely surprised that a bunch of white extremists telling the people of Bristol what statues they can and can’t have because of their own particular views on how people should respond to race and racism is controversial?
It’s a view.
Yes it is surprising to me. The guy is a mass murderer, the statue should have been removed years ago. Like I say, the crowd I saw was mixed, but I don't know why the race of the people involved is important.
Wasn't the Prophet Mohammed a slave owner ?
Would you favour the closure of mosques because of it ?
Sure, why not?
I'm going to file pulling down a statue to a slave trader in the same kind of category as driving to Barnhard Castle during lockdown - sure its illegal technically but I honestly couldn't care less about it.
Its right not to have statues to slave traders in 21st century. Maybe the statue can be recovered and put in a museum somewhere but not out and about on display.
Surely, the right response is to destroy statues of Muhammad?
Living dangerously Foxy!!!!!
More likely converted to Islam
No, just teasing. Obviously there are no statues of Muhammad to tear down. Muslims don't like idols.
I take the point of view that Mohammad was a false prophet, and there is little in common between Islam and Christianity.
Little in common? Are you sure?
Yes. The God described in the New Testament is very different to the one in the Koran. They are incompatible.
What about the one in the Old Testament?
The Old Testament certainly includes depictions of a vengeful, violent intolerant God, but is superseded by the New Testament.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
Or the whole of all of these religious stories can be interpreted as people of their time creating stories based upon the era they were living in.
God didn't change, our understanding didn't change, the invention of him changed depended upon who was inventing him.
It all depends on what you believe. No doubt Muslims believe me to be fundamentally mistaken, as do Bhuddists, Hindus, as well as Athiests, but mine is an unremarkable Christian view.
Believing your fiction is accurate is something you've got in common with Muslims etc, the issue is simply which holy beliefs your ancestors created that you believe in. Every ancient era created its own beliefs, there's nothing unique with Christianity in that.
Certainly so, but we will all find out in time who is right and who is wrong, just not on this earth.
As Dave Allen used to say 'may your God go with you'
One of the earliest recorded instances came in 1776, just five days after the Declaration of Independence was ratified. In a moment that was immortalized in a mid-19th-century painting, soldiers and civilians tore down a gilded statue of Britain’s King George III in Manhattan.
Total BLM PR disaster today. The silent majority will not be impressed. It doesn’t matter that Churchill was a racist. His statue represents our nation’s finest hour, victory over fascism, not the man himself.
This is the nub of it. Do we wipe out signs of the past because they are unpleasant?
How would we know what had happened?
The statue isn't some warning from history, it's a hagiography saying what a thoroughly nice chap he was. It was erected over a hundred years after he died when slavery was illegal.
Yup. It’s like all those statues celebrating the confederacy in the southern USA - mostly erected during the late C19th/early C20th.
The trouble is that his name (and that of the Wills family, who weren't too politically correct either) permeate the city. They helped fund and build much of it in the 18th century. It includes landmarks as Colston Tower, Colston Hall, Colston Avenue, Colston Street, Colston's Girls' School, Colston's School, Colston's Primary School and Temple Colston School, as well as the statute.
You can't wipe out Colston and Wills without wiping out the whole story of Bristol. And how and why it came to be.
So I'd be inclined to keep them but have names of the slaves up there with them and alternative monuments and venues named after others too to balance it. And then for both to be taught and understood.
Bit harsh on Colston that he is, relatively speaking, one of the good guys as slave traders go. If he had spent all the money on country houses and brandy and fox hunting no one would ever have heard of him.
The idea that people will suddenly decide to vote for Boris Johnson out of deference to the reputation of Churchill is a bizarre logical leap.
They won't but they will not support mindless vandalism and rioting. This will play into the governments hands unless labour come out strongly against and in favour of law and order
And in all this has Starmer submerged again to continue his letter writing?
This notion that disapproving of rampant criminality somehow logically entails support for the government of the day is an odd one. Did, for example, Douglas-Home benefit from the Great Train Robbery happening during his government's watch? If not, why not? It's the same difference.
Macmillan was still PM at the time!
If the Government of the day is upholding the rule of law, and Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition is falling over itself to congratulate the rioters, then it does entail supporting it.
I think it's the first real challenge of Starmer's time as Labour leader.
Boris and co are going to have to do more than send a tweet saying please play nice. With no school or college for most of the protesters for months, they will be out day in day it and if it gets hot, i can see real trouble ahead.
And of course the useless Mayor just tweets i am on your side, but please remember to stay 2m away from one another
Hot sunshine starts in about a week, according to the forecast
Riots generally continue until 1. The weather turns terrible or 2. Law enforcers finally react, with counter violence, as in 2011
It'll probably continue until much more serious or widespread assaults against property are committed, or until people start dying. Whatever then follows will all, of course, be presented as the fault of the heavy-handed authorities.
I’d be surprised if Colston returns TBH. I wasn’t aware until today that we had a statute of some slave-driving arsehole in the middle of one of our core cities. Can’t imagine much enthusiasm for putting him back there.
The idea that people will suddenly decide to vote for Boris Johnson out of deference to the reputation of Churchill is a bizarre logical leap.
They won't but they will not support mindless vandalism and rioting. This will play into the governments hands unless labour come out strongly against and in favour of law and order
And in all this has Starmer submerged again to continue his letter writing?
This notion that disapproving of rampant criminality somehow logically entails support for the government of the day is an odd one. Did, for example, Douglas-Home benefit from the Great Train Robbery happening during his government's watch? If not, why not? It's the same difference.
Macmillan was still PM at the time!
If the Government of the day is upholding the rule of law, and Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition is falling over itself to congratulate the rioters, then it does entail supporting it.
I think it's the first real challenge of Starmer's time as Labour leader.
Total BLM PR disaster today. The silent majority will not be impressed. It doesn’t matter that Churchill was a racist. His statue represents our nation’s finest hour, victory over fascism, not the man himself.
Also historical figures are complicated. Gandhi was also a racist. Better cancel him too.
This is the nub of it. Do we wipe out signs of the past because they are unpleasant?
How would we know what had happened?
The statue isn't some warning from history, it's a hagiography saying what a thoroughly nice chap he was. It was erected over a hundred years after he died when slavery was illegal.
Yup. It’s like all those statues celebrating the confederacy in the southern USA - mostly erected during the late C19th/early C20th.
The trouble is that his name (and that of the Wills family, who weren't too politically correct either) permeate the city. They helped fund and build much of it in the 18th century. It includes landmarks as Colston Tower, Colston Hall, Colston Avenue, Colston Street, Colston's Girls' School, Colston's School, Colston's Primary School and Temple Colston School, as well as the statute.
You can't wipe out Colston and Wills without wiping out the whole story of Bristol. And how and why it came to be.
So I'd be inclined to keep them but have names of the slaves up there with them and alternative monuments and venues named after others too to balance it. And then for both to be taught and understood.
Bit harsh on Colston that he is, relatively speaking, one of the good guys as slave traders go. If he had spent all the money on country houses and brandy and fox hunting no one would ever have heard of him.
Bit harsh on Colston that he is, relatively speaking, one of the good guys as slave traders go. If he had spent all the money on country houses and brandy and fox hunting no one would ever have heard of him.
He used his instinct as a father and did what he thought was right for his family...
I had no idea until today that we had statues up of slavers. The fact that one stood in the centre of a major core city is pretty nauseating TBH.
When I visited Rome I was surprised by how many Mussolini monuments are still standing. But I wouldn't support getting rid of them because they remind people of what he was like.
Afaik there aren't any actual statues of Mussolini still standing, or not in public spaces anyway. The buildings of that period are trickier, why waste a top quality building as long as it didn't actually have torture chambers in the baesement? Otoh I've always suspected the fashion trade being a bit suspect on the fash element of their name, Fendi taking over Palazzo della Civiltà Italiana surprises me not a whit.
The idea that people will suddenly decide to vote for Boris Johnson out of deference to the reputation of Churchill is a bizarre logical leap.
They won't but they will not support mindless vandalism and rioting. This will play into the governments hands unless labour come out strongly against and in favour of law and order
And in all this has Starmer submerged again to continue his letter writing?
This notion that disapproving of rampant criminality somehow logically entails support for the government of the day is an odd one. Did, for example, Douglas-Home benefit from the Great Train Robbery happening during his government's watch? If not, why not? It's the same difference.
Macmillan was still PM at the time!
If the Government of the day is upholding the rule of law, and Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition is falling over itself to congratulate the rioters, then it does entail supporting it.
I think it's the first real challenge of Starmer's time as Labour leader.
He'll be drafting a letter as we speak.
Still smiling over a PBer's comment this week that someone should tell him its pro bono.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Lots of stuff used to be illegal that shouldn't have been. Some stuff is still illegal that shouldn't be. Sometimes doing what's right matters more than obeying the law. Plenty of stuff would never have changed if nobody had been willing to break the law. A statue of a man who became wealthy on the bloody murder of the slave trade should have been taken down years ago. If this was the only way to get it done, I am happy to applaud it.
So give me an apology for your role in the Irish Potato Famine.
Now.
Are you drinking already? That doesn't even make sense.
Irish Lives Matter
though not to you it seems
I would happily endorse the removal of any statues of British people who played any role in the Irish famine. It was a monstrous crime and another example of our problematic history. The Atlantic slave economy and the plantations at their core built on the British colonial experiment in Ireland, as you know, so the two issues are of course related. Since I am part Irish I'm certainly not going to deny that Irish lives matter, I'd like to see them mattering a whole lot more, in a united Ireland by consent. I'm just a bit confused as to why you are bringing it up since we weren't talking about it.
]Because you asking people to apolgise for evernts outside there experience is as logical as me holding you responsible for potato blight.
When did I ask anybody to apologise? I am just glad that a man who profited from the greatest crime in the history of humanity is no longer being honoured with a statue in one of our cities. I am genuinely surprised that is a controversial view, TBH.
You are genuinely surprised that a bunch of white extremists telling the people of Bristol what statues they can and can’t have because of their own particular views on how people should respond to race and racism is controversial?
It’s a view.
Yes it is surprising to me. The guy is a mass murderer, the statue should have been removed years ago. Like I say, the crowd I saw was mixed, but I don't know why the race of the people involved is important.
Wasn't the Prophet Mohammed a slave owner ?
Would you favour the closure of mosques because of it ?
Sure, why not?
I'm going to file pulling down a statue to a slave trader in the same kind of category as driving to Barnhard Castle during lockdown - sure its illegal technically but I honestly couldn't care less about it.
Its right not to have statues to slave traders in 21st century. Maybe the statue can be recovered and put in a museum somewhere but not out and about on display.
Surely, the right response is to destroy statues of Muhammad?
Living dangerously Foxy!!!!!
More likely converted to Islam
No, just teasing. Obviously there are no statues of Muhammad to tear down. Muslims don't like idols.
I take the point of view that Mohammad was a false prophet, and there is little in common between Islam and Christianity.
Little in common? Are you sure?
Yes. The God described in the New Testament is very different to the one in the Koran. They are incompatible.
What about the one in the Old Testament?
The Old Testament certainly includes depictions of a vengeful, violent intolerant God, but is superseded by the New Testament.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
Or the whole of all of these religious stories can be interpreted as people of their time creating stories based upon the era they were living in.
God didn't change, our understanding didn't change, the invention of him changed depended upon who was inventing him.
It all depends on what you believe. No doubt Muslims believe me to be fundamentally mistaken, as do Bhuddists, Hindus, as well as Athiests, but mine is an unremarkable Christian view.
It must be weird to believe that all religions historical and current were made up works of fiction, except for one.
The public process being slow and frustrating is no excuse for taking the law into your own hands.
Quite, and neither is the public process not going your way. That's what 'discussion' means - it means you might not get your way, not that there's just a 'discussion' before you do.
Now the protesters are readying themselves for an assault on Trump Tower in Manhattan.
This isn't going to end well.
Trump's dream scenario is violence outside Trump tower and violence spreading across US cities, then he can run the Nixon 'silent majority' law and order campaign he now wants to
Total BLM PR disaster today. The silent majority will not be impressed. It doesn’t matter that Churchill was a racist. His statue represents our nation’s finest hour, victory over fascism, not the man himself.
Also historical figures are complicated. Gandhi was also a racist. Better cancel him too.
Only whites can be racist - you must have missed the memo
The public process being slow and frustrating is no excuse for taking the law into your own hands.
Quite, and neither is the public process not going your way. That's what 'discussion' means - it means you might not get your way, not that there's just a 'discussion' before you do.
The protesters would have been far better to.stage a silent protest by it, showing pictures of slaves etc next to the plaque. That would have raised awareness without criminality and i doubt anybody would complain.
Its an excellent thread because it highlights why the protestors won't stop there: it lists the other 20 places names after him in the city, and then, under a "forget Colston" meme (eh?), lists another 5 people linked to placenames in the city that it deems to be even worse.
It would end with almost completely redefining all of central Bristol and it's history.
The idea that people will suddenly decide to vote for Boris Johnson out of deference to the reputation of Churchill is a bizarre logical leap.
They won't but they will not support mindless vandalism and rioting. This will play into the governments hands unless labour come out strongly against and in favour of law and order
And in all this has Starmer submerged again to continue his letter writing?
This notion that disapproving of rampant criminality somehow logically entails support for the government of the day is an odd one. Did, for example, Douglas-Home benefit from the Great Train Robbery happening during his government's watch? If not, why not? It's the same difference.
Macmillan was still PM at the time!
Yes, I was aware of that. But the point still stands, unless the suggestion is that Macmillan received personal political plaudits for the Great Train Robbery, which then evaporated when he left office.
When voters want a tough approach to law and order they shift back to the Tories
Can't see much tough law and order today!
Bristol has a Labour Mayor as does London
If Boris Johnson won't lead and stand up for the country, as its symbols are trashed, then people will start taking it into their own hands. Full on race riots are now possible. Show leadership and fast.
Now the protesters are readying themselves for an assault on Trump Tower in Manhattan.
This isn't going to end well.
Trump's dream scenario is violence outside Trump tower and violence spreading across US cities, then he can run the Nixon 'silent majority' law and order campaign he now wants to
Looks like he might get his wish. Perhaps he is smarter than he appears in a cynical, malevolent sort of way.
Comments
To still be banging on about Cummings doing an isolated trip when thousands are marching together and there's violence etc - seriously get your priorities sorted.
The Old Testament is best viewed non literally as an evolving understanding of the nature of God. Starting with the tribal deity described in Genesis, then gradually developing into the more ethereal God of the later prophets. It is not that God changed, but our understanding did.
I also don't think revalation ended at any point, so there never is a finalised understanding of God. The conventional Muslim view is that the Koran is the literal word of Allah and cannot be superseded.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/second-colston-statue-plaque-not-2682813
Welcome.
I’m afraid I don’t have a link. I was a student at the time and was very lightly involved on the edges, which is how I know about it. There was a BBC programme on the subject with interviews from those descended from Colston’s victims who wanted to keep it, but it doesn’t appear to be on YouTube.
There was a petition to get rid of it again a couple of years ago, which attracted several thousand signatures - not many of them from Bristol though as it turns out. I think that was the context of the plaque that this row was about.
What bothers me more is that if a bunch of white supremacists had tried to get rid of the statue to hide Bristol’s past, this is exactly the way they would go about it. 48 hours and it will be forgotten about and nobody will think about Colston again.
Ahh thanks. As usual I can see all sides of the arguement. Never mind Prekier leafue in a few weeks and cricket after.
Let go for the crime of producing honest legal opinion inconvenient to the Government.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/vandals-paint-face-edward-colston-30443
And also a mention of the rather vivid commentary by that historian.
Though as I noted when I visited Parliament I love the randomness of the floor plaques in Westminster Hall. You pass one saying Nelson Mandela spoke here, then the very next one is about Charles I being tried for treason, then its about a monarch lying in state, then talking about Warren Hastings.
God didn't change, our understanding didn't change, the invention of him changed depended upon who was inventing him.
However, I can see how having a statute of this arsehole in Bristol harbour might get on people’s wick somewhat.
Now perhaps things have changed and they should be asked again. Thats fine and proper way to do it.
And of course the useless Mayor just tweets i am on your side, but please remember to stay 2m away from one another
There were already plans to add a plaque giving more information about Colston's slaving activities, but apparently the Mayor stopped it being added because the final wording ended up not being sufficiently condemnatory for him.
You can't wipe out Colston and Wills without wiping out the whole story of Bristol. And how and why it came to be.
So I'd be inclined to keep them but have names of the slaves up there with them and alternative monuments and venues named after others too to balance it. And then for both to be taught and understood.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/controversial-statues-monuments-destroyed.html
One of the earliest recorded instances came in 1776, just five days after the Declaration of Independence was ratified. In a moment that was immortalized in a mid-19th-century painting, soldiers and civilians tore down a gilded statue of Britain’s King George III in Manhattan.
I think it's the first real challenge of Starmer's time as Labour leader.
When voters want a tough approach to law and order they shift back to the Tories
This isn't going to end well.
So long as no people are hurt there's a time and a place for protests and taking the law into your own hands.
It would end with almost completely redefining all of central Bristol and it's history.
I dont agree with lots of government policies, I don't go and smash shit up because of it.