Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
And now we have a lawyer arguing in favour of illegal action. You couldn't make this insanity up...
This action was not legal, and doubtless the perpetrators will be punished according to the law, but it was morally right. Property was damaged, not lives. It’s just a chunk of metal and stone. It might even be put back up.
People like you enjoy watching the rights and lives of others get destroyed, decry the protesting the murder of a black man as inconsequentially “woke”, but when an inanimate representation of a slave trader gets damaged you go ballistic. Property over lives is the constant refrain of the right. You couldn’t make this insanity up
I might have guessed a halfwitted poltroon like you would have supported the criminals.
You have shown more empathy and compassion towards a statue than you have ever shown for any human being on this board. Pulling down a statute has caused literally no pain to anyone. Yet you are more outraged by it than about anything save for posts that disagree with your own views and/or are critical of your country. I shouldn’t be surprised, it is typical of the sort of flabby minded knobbery you grace this board with on a daily basis. However, today I find you are not only the kind of trolling halfwit who can only post deeply repetitive ad hominem attacks, not only do you have a brain that rolls around your head like a ball bearing, I now find you have no moral compass whatever.
You do have one talent though. Very few people are able to convince themselves that they belong to the only and most oppressed people on Earth to the extent of negating the experiences of literally the rest of the planet like you do. Please take comfort in that singular talent while you continue your deeply unhappy existence impotently screaming into your keyboard all day every day.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
It really doesn't. It's a very apt term because it's about becoming aware of something you were previously oblivious to. Not due to lack of intelligence or moral fibre, just simply because you were probably concentrating on other things, your radar was set in a certain way. That's how it is with people. There's only so much bandwidth. And (imo) it's why people can get irritated by this stuff. It can sound self-righteous. Pompous even. Overly intellectualized and a teeny bit precious and wanky.
But it isn't. This is not what woke means. It specifically means being alert to insidious and structural disadvantages of race and gender. At least having an open mind about the fact these can and often do exist in ways less stark than (say) the Lawrence murder or the industrial levels of sex trafficking of women by men.
That's it. I consider myself woke and I assure you that is all it means to me. I don't go around with a face like a lemon saying right-on things and sneering at the unenlightened. I'm just a normal bloke. I like a pint and a fag. Bit of banter. I like talking about the football. About girls. See how I said girls there and not women? All of that. I get as distracted by the sight of a well turned ankle as the next man. I don't want to live next to a Mosque.
But I am woke. Or rather, and this is key, I try to be. Why would I not?
Why not make the effort to become a woke bloke too? You don't have to - it doesn't make you a pariah if you don't - but I do recommend it and there is certainly nothing to be frightened of.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
Personally, it's Marx & Engels leaden prose I found particularly offensive. Killing the bourgeoisie through revolutionary terror is only a minor sin in comparison.
"A spectre is haunting Europe—the spectre of communism" is an electrifying way to start a book. Never got any further with it though.
By far his best is The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon.
The palatable frustration as he tries to get his theories to fit real events and slowly understands that they don’t because his theories are a crock of horse shit is absolutely hilarious.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
I see this argument in so many guises (including multiple times in this thread) and I just never understand how it makes sense to the person writing it. It's like saying "Oh, he donated money to Cancer Research UK, and you think that's okay? So what if somebody just chooses to go donate money to ISIS, are you okay with that, buddy?"
Now you are talking utter garbage , what has donating to cancer research got to do with yobbos breaking the law and arsepipes like you supporting them.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
No. Nor was Adolf Hitler, although oddly he used much the same methods.
I was just joshing!
Totalitarianism was my specialility at Cardiff. I was a big fan of the work of Hannah Arendt back in the day, and one of my Professors, Roy Jones, it was claimed corresponded with her, obviously when she was still alive.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
Nelson wasn’t totally armless.
...next.
Although Malcolm's attempt up thread wasn't any better!
I have not posted today, not because of the sliding polls or the inevitability of Boris's fall, but the utter madness that has been going on over the last two days when decent BLM protesters with a just cause have been infiltrated with anarchists and the far left intent on the destruction of the capitalist system. Words fail me to be honest
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
He also confirmed the same 14 day flight quarantine regulation with everyone flying into the country required to present the mandatory form to border force on entry. This is one policy that does seem to apply UK wide, despite the Daily Mail having one of it's regular full on HMG attacks
I think covid has now got HMG in the same fix as Brexit. Those who want to exit lockdown fast for economic reasons (leave) and those who want to stay in lockdown (remain).
Boris failed on Cummings, and he really does not look well. Where we go from here over the coming months and years politically I do not know, but the reassuring fact is that Corbyn has gone and as long as Starmer steers away from Corbynism I am content.
However I still remain a conservative member and intend continuing to do so
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
And now we have a lawyer arguing in favour of illegal action. You couldn't make this insanity up...
This action was not legal, and doubtless the perpetrators will be punished according to the law, but it was morally right. Property was damaged, not lives. It’s just a chunk of metal and stone. It might even be put back up.
People like you enjoy watching the rights and lives of others get destroyed, decry the protesting the murder of a black man as inconsequentially “woke”, but when an inanimate representation of a slave trader gets damaged you go ballistic. Property over lives is the constant refrain of the right. You couldn’t make this insanity up
I might have guessed a halfwitted poltroon like you would have supported the criminals.
You have shown more empathy and compassion towards a statue than you have ever shown for any human being on this board. Pulling down a statute has caused literally no pain to anyone. Yet you are more outraged by it than about anything save for posts that disagree with your own views and/or are critical of your country. I shouldn’t be surprised, it is typical of the sort of flabby minded knobbery you grace this board with on a daily basis. However, today I find you are not only the kind of trolling halfwit who can only post deeply repetitive ad hominem attacks, not only do you have a brain that rolls around your head like a ball bearing, I now find you have no moral compass whatever.
You do have one talent though. Very few people are able to convince themselves that they belong to the only and most oppressed people on Earth to the extent of negating the experiences of literally the rest of the planet like you do. Please take comfort in that singular talent while you continue your deeply unhappy existence impotently screaming into your keyboard all day every day.
But here’s my question. Leaving aside the breaches of lockdown, the vandalism and the pollution of a waterway, why is it appropriate for a bunch of white people to remove a statue they consider racist despite the black community of the city taking the view that it should have stayed?
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
WEll unless you are blind deaf and dumb you would realise I am just a little bit against law breaking of any sort. It is just as bad as scumbags we see in Bristol today, over privileged tosspots who need sorting out. I proscribe to the flog them and hang them high tenets.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
WEll unless you are blind deaf and dumb you would realise I am just a little bit against law breaking of any sort. It is just as bad as scumbags we see in Bristol today, over privileged tosspots who need sorting out. I proscribe to the flog them and hang them high tenets.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
Nelson wasn’t totally armless.
he was a bit hardy though
Aye Aye.
Or perhaps that should just be one eye...
Eye am not sure about it but will take your word for it, pass the brandy
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
Nelson wasn’t totally armless.
he was a bit hardy though
Aye Aye.
Or perhaps that should just be one eye...
Eye am not sure about it but will take your word for it, pass the brandy
Very appropriate choice of beverage given I understand he was pickled in it upon victory...
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
I don't think that is true; they have - like everyone else - been asked to make certain sacrifices to help the wider community, including *their* community.
The disease does affect them, as it affects all of us, unless they don't give a toss about the fate of their parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and are confenitally callous.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
Nelson wasn’t totally armless.
he was a bit hardy though
Aye Aye.
Or perhaps that should just be one eye...
Eye am not sure about it but will take your word for it, pass the brandy
Very appropriate choice of beverage given I understand he was pickled in it upon victory...
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?
Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?
The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
The fact the people of the city have already stated their opinion that they wanted it kept, it makes this act even worse. It is absolute mob rule.
It is absolute anarchy.
1. It's totally unwarranted hooliganism and disorder in any case. 2. It seriously threatens public health because of COVID.
The government needs to stop wringing its hands and instead get the police and if necessary the army to do whatever it takes to clear the streets of these vermin including sending a very clear signal to others that it is not a good idea to join them.
That's working so well in the US...
...you are a complete moron.
Says the most prolific purveyor of infantile drivel this site has ever seen or I would wager ever will.
I presume we blame the people pulling down the statue on Big Dom, right?
No, I don't. The government and the medics have been saying for the last few weeks that one's chances of catching the virus outdoors are very low. So, they eased lockdown and allowed unlimited travel to exercise/sunbathe as long as social distancing was maintained. This became impossible as so many travelled to the coast and elsewhere during the hot weather. The beach near me was absolutely heaving.
If protestors have spread the virus blame them, but for consistency blame also those who also indulged their newfound freedoms to congregate closely together in and around beaches and other hotspots.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
Nelson wasn’t totally armless.
he was a bit hardy though
Aye Aye.
Or perhaps that should just be one eye...
Eye am not sure about it but will take your word for it, pass the brandy
Very appropriate choice of beverage given I understand he was pickled in it upon victory...
Cannot think of a much better way to be embalmed.
Really? Surely you would have preferred a Grant’s whisky?
I presume we blame the people pulling down the statue on Big Dom, right?
No, I don't. The government and the medics have been saying for the last few weeks that one's chances of catching the virus outdoors are very low. So, they eased lockdown and allowed unlimited travel to exercise/sunbathe as long as social distancing was maintained. This became impossible as so many travelled to the coast and elsewhere during the hot weather. The beach near me was absolutely heaving.
If protestors have spread the virus blame them, but for consistency blame also those who also indulged their new-found freedoms to congregate closely together in and around beaches and other hotspots.
I presume we blame the people pulling down the statue on Big Dom, right?
No, I don't. The government and the medics have been saying for the last few weeks that one's chances of catching the virus outdoors are very low. So, they eased lockdown and allowed unlimited travel to exercise/sunbathe as long as social distancing was maintained. This became impossible as so many travelled to the coast and elsewhere during the hot weather. The beach near me was absolutely heaving.
If protestors have spread the virus blame them, but for consistency blame also those who also indulged their newfound freedoms to congregate closely together in and around beaches and other hotspots.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
They should arrest them and give them minimum 2 years in the army, that would sort the woke jessies out.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
They should arrest them and give them minimum 2 years in the army, that would sort the woke jessies out.
I presume we blame the people pulling down the statue on Big Dom, right?
No, I don't. The government and the medics have been saying for the last few weeks that one's chances of catching the virus outdoors are very low. So, they eased lockdown and allowed unlimited travel to exercise/sunbathe as long as social distancing was maintained. This became impossible as so many travelled to the coast and elsewhere during the hot weather. The beach near me was absolutely heaving.
If protestors have spread the virus blame them, but for consistency blame also those who also indulged their new-found freedoms to congregate closely together in and around beaches and other hotspots.
I think the difference is that the beachgoers did not organise a mass visit to the beach (they just were accidentally part of one not having the power of foresight). The demos over the weekend were organised even , in some cases, putting on food and entertainment
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In my view, no it isn't.
But how we laughed when the statues of Sadam and Gadaffi fell.
they were revolutions against the current dictator though
I disagree with the destruction of any historical artifacts. Whether the statues should have still been on public display in a multi-cultural city is another question. Likewise I don't want the streetnames of Bristol changed by the council in a pique of political correctness. Changing Blackboy Hill to be Robert Mugabe Rise would be an error.
My comment re: Saddam and Gadaffi was excessively flippant, although a vague similarity I feel does exist.
Bristol is not, of course, far from Cheddar, where Cheddar Man lived back in the day. According to Wikipedia analysis of his nuclear DNA indicates that he was a typical member of the western European population at the time, probably with dark or dark to black* skin.
*Yes, I realise there's a dispute over this.
Yet they found a close match for the Cheddar chap in a local schoolteacher.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
What’s your view on the IRA blowing up Nelson in O’Connell Street in 1966?
Nelson wasn’t totally armless.
he was a bit hardy though
Aye Aye.
Or perhaps that should just be one eye...
Eye am not sure about it but will take your word for it, pass the brandy
Very appropriate choice of beverage given I understand he was pickled in it upon victory...
Cannot think of a much better way to be embalmed.
Really? Surely you would have preferred a Grant’s whisky?
I did say "much better", would be happy with either, would want a nice VSOP cognac at least though
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?
Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?
The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
The fact the people of the city have already stated their opinion that they wanted it kept, it makes this act even worse. It is absolute mob rule.
It is absolute anarchy.
1. It's totally unwarranted hooliganism and disorder in any case. 2. It seriously threatens public health because of COVID.
The government needs to stop wringing its hands and instead get the police and if necessary the army to do whatever it takes to clear the streets of these vermin including sending a very clear signal to others that it is not a good idea to join them.
That's working so well in the US...
...you are a complete moron.
Says the most prolific purveyor of infantile drivel this site has ever seen or I would wager ever will.
kinabalu, intelligent input love.
You are recognised across this site for your ill informed woke opinion
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."
Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
Well, he would have lost his bet. And since if he knew anything about Bristol he would not have made it, no, it was not reasonable. It was a typical pompous sneer based on his own metropolitan ignorance.
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
What makes you think he was talking exclusively about Bristol? Seems an odd way to interpret the comment. This is a national news story.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
They should arrest them and give them minimum 2 years in the army, that would sort the woke jessies out.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
It really doesn't. It's a very apt term because it's about becoming aware of something you were previously oblivious to. Not due to lack of intelligence or moral fibre, just simply because you were probably concentrating on other things, your radar was set in a certain way. That's how it is with people. There's only so much bandwidth. And (imo) it's why people can get irritated by this stuff. It can sound self-righteous. Pompous even. Overly intellectualized and a teeny bit precious and wanky.
But it isn't. This is not what woke means. It specifically means being alert to insidious and structural disadvantages of race and gender. At least having an open mind about the fact these can and often do exist in ways less stark than (say) the Lawrence murder or the industrial levels of sex trafficking of women by men.
That's it. I consider myself woke and I assure you that is all it means to me. I don't go around with a face like a lemon saying right-on things and sneering at the unenlightened. I'm just a normal bloke. I like a pint and a fag. Bit of banter. I like talking about the football. About girls. See how I said girls there and not women? All of that. I get as distracted by the sight of a well turned ankle as the next man. I don't want to live next to a Mosque.
But I am woke. Or rather, and this is key, I try to be. Why would I not?
Why not make the effort to become a woke bloke too? You don't have to - it doesn't make you a pariah if you don't - but I do recommend it and there is certainly nothing to be frightened of.
I'm aware of all the different forms of historical and / or structural disadvantage and have no particular problem with acknowledging them or having public policy (slowly and gently) ameliorate them.
But to be honest, you're a bit of a crap woke bloke, and not the hardcore type I have my actual issue with. Those are the people who take this stuff to the nth degree, who do want monuments destroyed, the literary canon replaced, the entire historical and cultural fabric of this country and the West in general turned into a palimpsest and rewritten to suit their version of the truth and no other. Those people are seizing on this moment, and I will never give them so much as an inch.
Putting aside any Belguim lockdown rules ( I have no idea what they are) then that is fine . Nothing wrong with protesting using a statue as a prop. just dont decide you have the woke right to tear it down
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
Phew that has made it all right then
I don't think it's alright, but I find it hard to get annoyed about behaviour with regards to COVID-19. How people behave during autumn and winter will be much more important, in my opinion.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
Well thats ok then......
Shakes head
Perhaps I should have made clear that he was filming the riots as a freelance journalist rather than taking part in them!
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
Ooo swearing now. Golly.
And where's the gone?
But good, I like it. The real you. The man behind the mask. Better this way.
I was so shocked and angry I've just written to my MP.
And I'm not going to stop there. I will be writing to Boris as well.
Not for the first time, a justifiable concern has been hijacked by those interested only in lawlessness and destruction and a little bit of anarchy.
I've no issue with anger especially over the death of George Floyd which was inexcusable. I've no issue with peaceful protest which is allowed in our free society. There are some serious and fundamental questions which are worth proper debate.
The problem is violence closes down that debate - as @NickPalmer told us, a dignified silent protest can achieve so much. Unfortunately, as soon as violence rears its ugly head, the law-abiding are justifiably repulsed and the debate goes nowhere.
I'm sure that's not what BLM wants but I suspect those causing the violence don't care. It's just an excuse for them to damage and destroy.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
It would be encouraging were you proven to be correct. Many (though not all) of these demos have been largely without social distancing, most of those attending are shouting the whole time and many of them haven't been wearing even rudimentary face coverings.
If we can get away with clustering many thousands of people together in this fashion without the virus running rampant then I so no particular reason to be concerned about the next phases in the unshuttering of the economy, due on June 15th and July 4th. The orderly re-opening of shops and a partial unshuttering of cafes and restaurants seems very low risk compared to the misbehaviour of massive baying mobs.
Putting aside any Belguim lockdown rules ( I have no idea what they are) then that is fine . Nothing wrong with protesting using a statue as a prop. just dont decide you have the woke right to tear it down
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
On the last thread an argument was made by many that this was exactly the way to go. That in addressing the issue of race today in the UK, our history of Empire and Colonialism ought not to feature at all. I'm guessing those making the argument to forget history where it illuminates now wish to remember it where it shames and offends. I suggest they have it the wrong way round.
Both views are equally dumb. Instead, I give you George Santayana: ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
I was so shocked and angry I've just written to my MP.
And I'm not going to stop there. I will be writing to Boris as well.
Not for the first time, a justifiable concern has been hijacked by those interested only in lawlessness and destruction and a little bit of anarchy.
I've no issue with anger especially over the death of George Floyd which was inexcusable. I've no issue with peaceful protest which is allowed in our free society. There are some serious and fundamental questions which are worth proper debate.
The problem is violence closes down that debate - as @NickPalmer told us, a dignified silent protest can achieve so much. Unfortunately, as soon as violence rears its ugly head, the law-abiding are justifiably repulsed and the debate goes nowhere.
I'm sure that's not what BLM wants but I suspect those causing the violence don't care. It's just an excuse for them to damage and destroy.
Thank you.
Anyone defending this will permanently forfeit my respect.
You don't substitute the rule of the mob for the rule of law. If you do, there is no telling where it will end. And sometimes it never does.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
It would be encouraging were you proven to be correct. Many (though not all) of these demos have been largely without social distancing, most of those attending are shouting the whole time and many of them haven't been wearing even rudimentary face coverings.
If we can get away with clustering many thousands of people together in this fashion without the virus running rampant then I so no particular reason to be concerned about the next phases in the unshuttering of the economy, due on June 15th and July 4th. The orderly re-opening of shops and a partial unshuttering of cafes and restaurants seems very low risk compared to the misbehaviour of massive baying mobs.
I had tickets for The Open at Sandwich and decided to let them roll over to next year. I'm happy with that decision and I'm confident I'll be there next July. EDIT: The only doubt I have about Sandwich is the park and ride system. That might be a problem.
On the other hand, I took the chance to get a refund on my Arsenal tickets. I don't expect to be going to the Emirates for many years to come.
It would be encouraging were you proven to be correct. Many (though not all) of these demos have been largely without social distancing, most of those attending are shouting the whole time and many of them haven't been wearing even rudimentary face coverings.
If we can get away with clustering many thousands of people together in this fashion without the virus running rampant then I so no particular reason to be concerned about the next phases in the unshuttering of the economy, due on June 15th and July 4th. The orderly re-opening of shops and a partial unshuttering of cafes and restaurants seems very low risk compared to the misbehaviour of massive baying mobs.
I have to say most of the "massive baying mobs" as you call them seem pretty young and as the likes of @contrarian and others have told us ad infinitum the young are at almost no risk from this. Barely 500 deaths in the UK out of a population of nearly 40 million under 45.
If those pulling down the statue were in their eighties, I'd be much more concerned (on a number of levels).
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
Phew that has made it all right then
I don't think it's alright, but I find it hard to get annoyed about behaviour with regards to COVID-19. How people behave during autumn and winter will be much more important, in my opinion.
Hopefully we make it to winter without another lockdown. A lot of irresponsible behaviour going on.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Putting aside any Belguim lockdown rules ( I have no idea what they are) then that is fine . Nothing wrong with protesting using a statue as a prop. just dont decide you have the woke right to tear it down
Leopold was a serious, Adolf grade c-nt, though.
In those days they were ten a penny, it was dog eat dog at the top
It would be encouraging were you proven to be correct. Many (though not all) of these demos have been largely without social distancing, most of those attending are shouting the whole time and many of them haven't been wearing even rudimentary face coverings.
If we can get away with clustering many thousands of people together in this fashion without the virus running rampant then I so no particular reason to be concerned about the next phases in the unshuttering of the economy, due on June 15th and July 4th. The orderly re-opening of shops and a partial unshuttering of cafes and restaurants seems very low risk compared to the misbehaviour of massive baying mobs.
I have to say most of the "massive baying mobs" as you call them seem pretty young and as the likes of @contrarian and others have told us ad infinitum the young are at almost no risk from this. Barely 500 deaths in the UK out of a population of nearly 40 million under 45.
If those pulling down the statue were in their eighties, I'd be much more concerned (on a number of levels).
Although that doesn't mean they can't spread it far and wide.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the public to follow suit. Now we have labourites advocating mobs to go smash shit up.
Is it really that amazing, though? I can't remember who it was who said that the left can't see a crowd without having an orgasm, so if you show them a real riot, well... better stand well back!
It would be encouraging were you proven to be correct. Many (though not all) of these demos have been largely without social distancing, most of those attending are shouting the whole time and many of them haven't been wearing even rudimentary face coverings.
If we can get away with clustering many thousands of people together in this fashion without the virus running rampant then I so no particular reason to be concerned about the next phases in the unshuttering of the economy, due on June 15th and July 4th. The orderly re-opening of shops and a partial unshuttering of cafes and restaurants seems very low risk compared to the misbehaviour of massive baying mobs.
I have to say most of the "massive baying mobs" as you call them seem pretty young and as the likes of @contrarian and others have told us ad infinitum the young are at almost no risk from this. Barely 500 deaths in the UK out of a population of nearly 40 million under 45.
If those pulling down the statue were in their eighties, I'd be much more concerned (on a number of levels).
Indeed but then they go home and spread it through their communities including middle aged and old people.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
Clive Lewis is the MP for Norwich South, which includes the historic City Centre.
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
On the last thread an argument was made by many that this was exactly the way to go. That in addressing the issue of race today in the UK, our history of Empire and Colonialism ought not to feature at all. I'm guessing those making the argument to forget history where it illuminates now wish to remember it where it shames and offends. I suggest they have it the wrong way round.
Both views are equally dumb. Instead, I give you George Santayana: ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
The balancing statue is a very good idea. I would enthusiastically support that. And you could make it bigger and more prominent than the Colston statue so it would overshadow it.
The museum might be a possible solution although these things become out of sight out of mind.
A braying mob that looks like a fascist rally and is about as racially diverse as an Icelandic convent school tearing down statues because they are trying to pretend they are politically right-on is not a solution to anything.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
It would be encouraging were you proven to be correct. Many (though not all) of these demos have been largely without social distancing, most of those attending are shouting the whole time and many of them haven't been wearing even rudimentary face coverings.
If we can get away with clustering many thousands of people together in this fashion without the virus running rampant then I so no particular reason to be concerned about the next phases in the unshuttering of the economy, due on June 15th and July 4th. The orderly re-opening of shops and a partial unshuttering of cafes and restaurants seems very low risk compared to the misbehaviour of massive baying mobs.
I had tickets for The Open at Sandwich and decided to let them roll over to next year. I'm happy with that decision and I'm confident I'll be there next July. EDIT: The only doubt I have about Sandwich is the park and ride system. That might be a problem.
On the other hand, I took the chance to get a refund on my Arsenal tickets. I don't expect to be going to the Emirates for many years to come.
Is that a damning indictment on Stan Kroenke or do you think social distancing is here to stay?
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
On the last thread an argument was made by many that this was exactly the way to go. That in addressing the issue of race today in the UK, our history of Empire and Colonialism ought not to feature at all. I'm guessing those making the argument to forget history where it illuminates now wish to remember it where it shames and offends. I suggest they have it the wrong way round.
Both views are equally dumb. Instead, I give you George Santayana: ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
The balancing statue is a very good idea. I would enthusiastically support that. And you could make it bigger and more prominent than the Colston statue so it would overshadow it.
The museum might be a possible solution although these things become out of sight out of mind.
A braying mob that looks like a fascist rally and is about as racially diverse as an Icelandic convent school tearing down statues because they are trying to pretend they are politically right-on is not a solution to anything.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
Clive Lewis is the MP for Norwich South, which includes the historic City Centre.
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
That should keep him busy for a while.
In Leicester there’s a statue to a mass murderer, child killer and would be incestuous rapist outside the Cathedral.
Why do the mobs not think that should be pulled down?
Edit - incidentally, no, I don’t think it should be removed.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
It would be encouraging were you proven to be correct. Many (though not all) of these demos have been largely without social distancing, most of those attending are shouting the whole time and many of them haven't been wearing even rudimentary face coverings.
If we can get away with clustering many thousands of people together in this fashion without the virus running rampant then I so no particular reason to be concerned about the next phases in the unshuttering of the economy, due on June 15th and July 4th. The orderly re-opening of shops and a partial unshuttering of cafes and restaurants seems very low risk compared to the misbehaviour of massive baying mobs.
I had tickets for The Open at Sandwich and decided to let them roll over to next year. I'm happy with that decision and I'm confident I'll be there next July. EDIT: The only doubt I have about Sandwich is the park and ride system. That might be a problem.
On the other hand, I took the chance to get a refund on my Arsenal tickets. I don't expect to be going to the Emirates for many years to come.
Is that a damning indictment on Stan Kroenke or do you think social distancing is here to stay?
The latter! It's public transport that's the problem. Of course, it's more of an issue for London clubs than for more provincial clubs.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
Phew that has made it all right then
I don't think it's alright, but I find it hard to get annoyed about behaviour with regards to COVID-19. How people behave during autumn and winter will be much more important, in my opinion.
Hopefully we make it to winter without another lockdown. A lot of irresponsible behaviour going on.
The crowds heading to the US Embassy are mind-bogglingly ridiculous.
Individual stupidity isn't the fault of government, however to say that the Westminster government are in control of Covid-19 transmission issues would be way off the mark. Loss of control, that is where the Cummings escapade comes into the equation.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
Clive Lewis is the MP for Norwich South, which includes the historic City Centre.
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
That should keep him busy for a while.
In Leicester there’s a statue to a mass murderer, child killer and would be incestuous rapist outside the Cathedral.
Why do the mobs not think that should be pulled down?
Edit - incidentally, no, I don’t think it should be removed.
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
On the last thread an argument was made by many that this was exactly the way to go. That in addressing the issue of race today in the UK, our history of Empire and Colonialism ought not to feature at all. I'm guessing those making the argument to forget history where it illuminates now wish to remember it where it shames and offends. I suggest they have it the wrong way round.
Both views are equally dumb. Instead, I give you George Santayana: ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
The balancing statue is a very good idea. I would enthusiastically support that. And you could make it bigger and more prominent than the Colston statue so it would overshadow it.
The museum might be a possible solution although these things become out of sight out of mind.
A braying mob that looks like a fascist rally and is about as racially diverse as an Icelandic convent school tearing down statues because they are trying to pretend they are politically right-on is not a solution to anything.
Bristol used to have a museum for that sort of purpose, albeit about the Empire & Commonwealth rather than slavery per se, in the original Brunelian terminus at Temple Meads railway station, but it closed.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Wait until the criminal behaviour ends up on their doorstep. Then they'll be howling into the seven heavens about the injustice. Proper "what have I done" Alec Guinness stuff.
Whilst there is the joke about Scandinavians thinking the 2 metre social distance rule was an invitation to become more sociable and not less ,I think making it a 1 metre rule in Britain may have the same view ! Natural social distancing pre Covid -19
Anyone defending this will permanently forfeit my respect.
You don't substitute the rule of the mob for the rule of law. If you do, there is no telling where it will end. And sometimes it never does.
This has got to stop. Now.
Where you and I might part company is the response to the violence.
I wouldn't advocate using the violence as a response to close down the protest - that would be in my view wrong. Prosecute those responsible for violence and destruction by all means but that can't be an excuse to ban protest or prosecute those organising the protests.
The right to protest peacefully is sacrosanct as far as I'm concerned and the death of George Floyd was completely unacceptable and inexcusable and regrettably far from the first instance.
There are deeper questions about race in this country - we are much better than the US, no question but that doesn't mean we can't improve and strive to achieve a genuinely better society for all citizens irrespective of colour or creed. We've taken huge questions since the bad old days of the 70s and before but we can't rest on our laurels.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
Clive Lewis is the MP for Norwich South, which includes the historic City Centre.
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
That should keep him busy for a while.
In Leicester there’s a statue to a mass murderer, child killer and would be incestuous rapist outside the Cathedral.
Why do the mobs not think that should be pulled down?
Edit - incidentally, no, I don’t think it should be removed.
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
On the last thread an argument was made by many that this was exactly the way to go. That in addressing the issue of race today in the UK, our history of Empire and Colonialism ought not to feature at all. I'm guessing those making the argument to forget history where it illuminates now wish to remember it where it shames and offends. I suggest they have it the wrong way round.
Both views are equally dumb. Instead, I give you George Santayana: ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
The balancing statue is a very good idea. I would enthusiastically support that. And you could make it bigger and more prominent than the Colston statue so it would overshadow it.
The museum might be a possible solution although these things become out of sight out of mind.
A braying mob that looks like a fascist rally and is about as racially diverse as an Icelandic convent school tearing down statues because they are trying to pretend they are politically right-on is not a solution to anything.
Bristol used to have a museum for that sort of purpose, albeit about the Empire & Commonwealth rather than slavery per se, in the original Brunelian terminus at Temple Meads railway station, but it closed.
Although broadly sympathetic to the BLM movement, it does seem as if the government is losing control of the streets
(Having already lost control of policy around the epidemic).
Yes, there is also a risk these escalate into a riot. Devil of a job though to clamp down though, govt having forfeited the moral high ground.
Moral high ground doesn't come into it. Either the authorities want to police the law or they don't. Personally I couldn't care less what these knuckledraggers do, but then I live in suburbia so it doesn't affect me.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
Clive Lewis is the MP for Norwich South, which includes the historic City Centre.
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
That should keep him busy for a while.
In Leicester there’s a statue to a mass murderer, child killer and would be incestuous rapist outside the Cathedral.
Why do the mobs not think that should be pulled down?
Edit - incidentally, no, I don’t think it should be removed.
Did Lord Adonis get his wish ?
With all his many faults, I have never heard it suggested that Blair tried to molest his nieces.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
Clive Lewis is the MP for Norwich South, which includes the historic City Centre.
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
That should keep him busy for a while.
In Leicester there’s a statue to a mass murderer, child killer and would be incestuous rapist outside the Cathedral.
Why do the mobs not think that should be pulled down?
Edit - incidentally, no, I don’t think it should be removed.
Is that Herod?
It is as the late, great Ronnie Barker would say, a small, brown Richard III.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
If these protests do so happen to cause a disease spike amongst non-white people, then that will doubtless be blamed on various forms of institutional racism and not on the marches themselves.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
I'm confident all this stuff won't make a blind bit of difference to the spread of COVID-19.
Phew that has made it all right then
I don't think it's alright, but I find it hard to get annoyed about behaviour with regards to COVID-19. How people behave during autumn and winter will be much more important, in my opinion.
Hopefully we make it to winter without another lockdown. A lot of irresponsible behaviour going on.
The crowds heading to the US Embassy are mind-bogglingly ridiculous.
Individual stupidity isn't the fault of government, however to say that the Westminster government are in control of Covid-19 transmission issues would be way off the mark. Loss of control, that is where the Cummings escapade comes into the equation.
In one sense the US embassy is the more logical place to protest this .
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Wait until the criminal behaviour ends up on their doorstep. Then they'll be howling into the seven heavens about the injustice. Proper "what have I done" Alec Guinness stuff.
It'll be too late by then, of course.
Well the Wills building in Bristol is another one the mob don't like, because the family made the money from slaves picking tobacco. I hope nobody decides now that is fair game given all the cheerleading the twaterrati are providing.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?
Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?
The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
The fact the people of the city have already stated their opinion that they wanted it kept, it makes this act even worse. It is absolute mob rule.
It is absolute anarchy.
1. It's totally unwarranted hooliganism and disorder in any case. 2. It seriously threatens public health because of COVID.
The government needs to stop wringing its hands and instead get the police and if necessary the army to do whatever it takes to clear the streets of these vermin including sending a very clear signal to others that it is not a good idea to join them.
That's working so well in the US...
...you are a complete moron.
Says the most prolific purveyor of infantile drivel this site has ever seen or I would wager ever will.
kinabalu, intelligent input love.
You are recognised across this site for your ill informed woke opinion
xxx
I do my best. That's all one can ask of anybody.
But really - you calling another poster a "moron".
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
On the last thread an argument was made by many that this was exactly the way to go. That in addressing the issue of race today in the UK, our history of Empire and Colonialism ought not to feature at all. I'm guessing those making the argument to forget history where it illuminates now wish to remember it where it shames and offends. I suggest they have it the wrong way round.
Both views are equally dumb. Instead, I give you George Santayana: ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
The balancing statue is a very good idea. I would enthusiastically support that. And you could make it bigger and more prominent than the Colston statue so it would overshadow it.
The museum might be a possible solution although these things become out of sight out of mind.
A braying mob that looks like a fascist rally and is about as racially diverse as an Icelandic convent school tearing down statues because they are trying to pretend they are politically right-on is not a solution to anything.
Bristol used to have a museum for that sort of purpose, albeit about the Empire & Commonwealth rather than slavery per se, in the original Brunelian terminus at Temple Meads railway station, but it closed.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
Clive Lewis is the MP for Norwich South, which includes the historic City Centre.
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
That should keep him busy for a while.
In Leicester there’s a statue to a mass murderer, child killer and would be incestuous rapist outside the Cathedral.
Why do the mobs not think that should be pulled down?
Edit - incidentally, no, I don’t think it should be removed.
Is that Herod?
It is as the late, great Ronnie Barker would say, a small, brown Richard III.
" But the former senior military official presented a scenario that he found particularly alarming: if the election is disputed, Trump could conceivably ask a friendly governor to deploy the National Guard to Washington, D.C., to support him. The official told me that the Guard, with separate leadership in each state, does not necessarily adhere to the same rigid standards as the regular U.S. military. “Some of the leaders are blatantly political,” he said. “The fear is that President Trump refuses to leave, and National Guard troops surround the White House.” "
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Come on - the odd Corbyn supporter such as Lewis might be "cheering on" events in Bristol but Starmer and most moderate sensible Labour supporters will be as horrified as anyone else by the violence of the protests though, as I do, they will support the notion of the protests.
The outrage against Cummings came from all parts of the spectrum including many Conservative MPs
Your last paragraph is just pejorative nonsense - it's a desperate attempt to score cheap political points.
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Wait until the criminal behaviour ends up on their doorstep. Then they'll be howling into the seven heavens about the injustice. Proper "what have I done" Alec Guinness stuff.
It'll be too late by then, of course.
Well the Wills building in Bristol is another one the mob don't like, because the family made the money from slaves picking tobacco. I hope nobody decides now that is fair game given all the cheerleading the twaterrati are providing.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
Clive Lewis is the MP for Norwich South, which includes the historic City Centre.
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
That should keep him busy for a while.
In Leicester there’s a statue to a mass murderer, child killer and would be incestuous rapist outside the Cathedral.
Why do the mobs not think that should be pulled down?
Edit - incidentally, no, I don’t think it should be removed.
Is that Herod?
It is as the late, great Ronnie Barker would say, a small, brown Richard III.
Wasn't he recently looking for a transfer from Leicester City to York City?
Amazing all the labourites cheering on criminal behaviour. Remember their outrage at Big Dom behaviour and.claims he would encourage the dangerous behaviour by the public.
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
Wait until the criminal behaviour ends up on their doorstep. Then they'll be howling into the seven heavens about the injustice. Proper "what have I done" Alec Guinness stuff.
It'll be too late by then, of course.
Well the Wills building in Bristol is another one the mob don't like, because the family made the money from slaves picking tobacco. I hope nobody decides now that is fair game given all the cheerleading the twaterrati are providing.
"First of all they came for the statues, and I did nothing"
Comments
You do have one talent though. Very few people are able to convince themselves that they belong to the only and most oppressed people on Earth to the extent of negating the experiences of literally the rest of the planet like you do. Please take comfort in that singular talent while you continue your deeply unhappy existence impotently screaming into your keyboard all day every day.
But it isn't. This is not what woke means. It specifically means being alert to insidious and structural disadvantages of race and gender. At least having an open mind about the fact these can and often do exist in ways less stark than (say) the Lawrence murder or the industrial levels of sex trafficking of women by men.
That's it. I consider myself woke and I assure you that is all it means to me. I don't go around with a face like a lemon saying right-on things and sneering at the unenlightened. I'm just a normal bloke. I like a pint and a fag. Bit of banter. I like talking about the football. About girls. See how I said girls there and not women? All of that. I get as distracted by the sight of a well turned ankle as the next man. I don't want to live next to a Mosque.
But I am woke. Or rather, and this is key, I try to be. Why would I not?
Why not make the effort to become a woke bloke too? You don't have to - it doesn't make you a pariah if you don't - but I do recommend it and there is certainly nothing to be frightened of.
The palatable frustration as he tries to get his theories to fit real events and slowly understands that they don’t because his theories are a crock of horse shit is absolutely hilarious.
Totalitarianism was my specialility at Cardiff. I was a big fan of the work of Hannah Arendt back in the day, and one of my Professors, Roy Jones, it was claimed corresponded with her, obviously when she was still alive.
I don’t like the guy, but that seems unduly harsh.
Never understood it myself.
Although Malcolm's attempt up thread wasn't any better!
Next.
Listening to the Scots Justice Minister this lunchtime, who is himself BME, pleading with Scots to obey the five mile rule, social distancing and no more than 8 meeting together in a vain attempt to stop the very clear threat to the health of us all was so depressing as we know it will be ignored. He even said they were doing this at the exact time the BME community were at a high risk of covid
He also confirmed the same 14 day flight quarantine regulation with everyone flying into the country required to present the mandatory form to border force on entry. This is one policy that does seem to apply UK wide, despite the Daily Mail having one of it's regular full on HMG attacks
I think covid has now got HMG in the same fix as Brexit. Those who want to exit lockdown fast for economic reasons (leave) and those who want to stay in lockdown (remain).
Boris failed on Cummings, and he really does not look well. Where we go from here over the coming months and years politically I do not know, but the reassuring fact is that Corbyn has gone and as long as Starmer steers away from Corbynism I am content.
However I still remain a conservative member and intend continuing to do so
Isn’t that, in itself, just a bit racist?
Way to hijack a movement and dilute the message.
Or perhaps that should just be one eye...
The disease does affect them, as it affects all of us, unless they don't give a toss about the fate of their parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and are confenitally callous.
I was so shocked and angry I've just written to my MP.
And I'm not going to stop there. I will be writing to Boris as well.
If protestors have spread the virus blame them, but for consistency blame also those who also indulged their newfound freedoms to congregate closely together in and around beaches and other hotspots.
The protestors (most of whom appear to be white) will be delighted by this. It will give them more to scream about.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/09/hes-one-of-us-modern-neighbours-welcome-cheddar-man
Red is Labour VI lead
Dark Blue is Blair's lead in net satisfaction over the Tory leader
Light Blue is his lead in personality over the Tory leader
You are recognised across this site for your ill informed woke opinion
xxx
But to be honest, you're a bit of a crap woke bloke, and not the hardcore type I have my actual issue with. Those are the people who take this stuff to the nth degree, who do want monuments destroyed, the literary canon replaced, the entire historical and cultural fabric of this country and the West in general turned into a palimpsest and rewritten to suit their version of the truth and no other. Those people are seizing on this moment, and I will never give them so much as an inch.
And where's the
But good, I like it. The real you. The man behind the mask. Better this way.
I've no issue with anger especially over the death of George Floyd which was inexcusable. I've no issue with peaceful protest which is allowed in our free society. There are some serious and fundamental questions which are worth proper debate.
The problem is violence closes down that debate - as @NickPalmer told us, a dignified silent protest can achieve so much. Unfortunately, as soon as violence rears its ugly head, the law-abiding are justifiably repulsed and the debate goes nowhere.
I'm sure that's not what BLM wants but I suspect those causing the violence don't care. It's just an excuse for them to damage and destroy.
Is mobs tearing down statues "getting to grips with history"?
It's certainly physically getting a grip I suppose.
If we can get away with clustering many thousands of people together in this fashion without the virus running rampant then I so no particular reason to be concerned about the next phases in the unshuttering of the economy, due on June 15th and July 4th. The orderly re-opening of shops and a partial unshuttering of cafes and restaurants seems very low risk compared to the misbehaviour of massive baying mobs.
Owen Jones and @Black_Rook inter alia
Anyone defending this will permanently forfeit my respect.
You don't substitute the rule of the mob for the rule of law. If you do, there is no telling where it will end. And sometimes it never does.
This has got to stop. Now.
On the other hand, I took the chance to get a refund on my Arsenal tickets. I don't expect to be going to the Emirates for many years to come.
If those pulling down the statue were in their eighties, I'd be much more concerned (on a number of levels).
Now we literally have labourites advocating forget covid (that think that disproportionately kills BAME individuals) and get into mobs to go smash shit up.
https://twitter.com/NumbersMuncher/status/1269617686968926212
He could continue his campaign for social justice through monument destruction be opening a petition to have the Castle bulldozed. It was an instrument of feudal oppression, built on land confiscated from the Saxon peasantry and on their burial grounds.
Once that's done then he could conduct an investigation into which of the monuments and memorials in the Cathedral should be ripped out because they were erected by or to morally questionable persons or causes? Then again, the Cathedral itself is another edifice built to glorify Norman imperialism. He should propose having it dynamited.
That should keep him busy for a while.
The museum might be a possible solution although these things become out of sight out of mind.
A braying mob that looks like a fascist rally and is about as racially diverse as an Icelandic convent school tearing down statues because they are trying to pretend they are politically right-on is not a solution to anything.
Why do the mobs not think that should be pulled down?
Edit - incidentally, no, I don’t think it should be removed.
Individual stupidity isn't the fault of government, however to say that the Westminster government are in control of Covid-19 transmission issues would be way off the mark. Loss of control, that is where the Cummings escapade comes into the equation.
(Having already lost control of policy around the epidemic).
Yes, there is also a risk these escalate into a riot. Devil of a job though to clamp down though, govt having forfeited the moral high ground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire_and_Commonwealth_Museum
It'll be too late by then, of course.
Natural social distancing pre Covid -19
Sweden 3 metres
Britain 1.5 metres?
France 1.5mm
I wouldn't advocate using the violence as a response to close down the protest - that would be in my view wrong. Prosecute those responsible for violence and destruction by all means but that can't be an excuse to ban protest or prosecute those organising the protests.
The right to protest peacefully is sacrosanct as far as I'm concerned and the death of George Floyd was completely unacceptable and inexcusable and regrettably far from the first instance.
There are deeper questions about race in this country - we are much better than the US, no question but that doesn't mean we can't improve and strive to achieve a genuinely better society for all citizens irrespective of colour or creed. We've taken huge questions since the bad old days of the 70s and before but we can't rest on our laurels.
https://www.bristolmuseums.org.uk/m-shed/learning/bristol-transatlantic-slave-trade/
They do excellent school workshops.
Ditto concerts, think cinemas should be ok given the social distancing plans the big chains have planned.
But really - you calling another poster a "moron".
C'mon. That's weapons scale cheek.
And I believe Glasgow Museums are working on a new slavery exhibition, but am not sure of the current status obviously.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/trumps-public-relations-army
The outrage against Cummings came from all parts of the spectrum including many Conservative MPs
Your last paragraph is just pejorative nonsense - it's a desperate attempt to score cheap political points.
and I did nothing"