Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."
Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
Well, he would have lost his bet. And since if he knew anything about Bristol he would not have made it, no, it was not reasonable. It was a typical pompous sneer based on his own metropolitan ignorance.
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
Excellent article. I have a professional interest in this through my job (head of Compassion in World Farming UK). To supplement Cyclefree's piece with some practical notes (hopefully non-partisan):
Essentially there are three ways of maintaining or improving standards:
1. We can accept anything, including low-standard stuff, but label it in a way that enables consumers to choose higher standards - this worked well for eggs, where the highest welfare free range eggs have almost driven caged effs off the market. But the US is very wary of labelling, which they consider to be discriminatory, and there are practical difficulties in putting everything on a label that consumers migh tlike to know.
2. We can accept anything, but put a big tariff on it, thereby protecting British agriculture. This is generally the NFU position, but it means that even high-standard, high-welfare imnports are kept out too. It's not as though all British farming was better than all foreign farming - it isn't.
3. We can have differential tariffs - high for cheap and nasty stuff, low for high-quality stuff. The Government seems to be thinking about this at the moment. Historically there have been problems getting this accepted by the WTO, but we could have a high general tariff and then a differential one agreed with the US in a free trade deal. The snag is that tariffs can be changed very easily, and once the principle of accepting any old imports is accepted, this or future governments can lower the tariffs; moreover, it does open up to hard-sell marketing by low-quality importers to establish themselves on UK supermarket shelves.
4. We can make high quality a condition in any free trade agreement. This is what the cross-party EFRA Select Committee favours, and a proposal for this sparked the first big revolt of this Parliament, with 22 Conservative MPs supporting it. It's likely to be proposed again bvy the Lords.
Exactly what is high quality is debatable, of course, but intensive farming with massive use of antibiotics and cleansing agents to reduce the risks is not what most people in Britain seem to want. If the Government wants to get a lasting trade deal that doesn't cause huge controversy, they would be well-advised to go for option 4.
4 has historically been an issue for the US (mainly because it excludes their agri-business lobby from the benefits of a deal).
A combination of 1&4 is probably the way through. I’m less fussed about antibiotic or hormone usage (I track both fairly closely and they are way down in the US) but animal welfare needs to be a critical concern
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."
Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
Well, he would have lost his bet. And since if he knew anything about Bristol he would not have made it, no, it was not reasonable. It was a typical pompous sneer based on his own metropolitan ignorance.
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
He said "many people". The bit about those people living in Bristol only exists in your head.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?
Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?
The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
The fact the people of the city have already stated their opinion that they wanted it kept, it makes this act even worse. It is absolute mob rule.
It is absolute anarchy.
1. It's totally unwarranted hooliganism and disorder in any case. 2. It seriously threatens public health because of COVID.
The government needs to stop wringing its hands and instead get the police and if necessary the army to do whatever it takes to clear the streets of these vermin including sending a very clear signal to others that it is not a good idea to join them.
One of the first lessons I was taught by my history teacher was not to judge people from history by modern standards.
You cannot simply erase history.
It certainly gets harder to do and also facts become grey as first hand knowledge is lost and even propoganda and myth can take over . Richard the Third arguably had a rough time from Shakespeare etc . That's not to say good and bad people existed (as they still do ) but is harder to be certain the more the passage of time.
Well, slightly rough. He was accused of involvement in murders that happened when he was very young (as in about six).
The general thrust of Shakespeare’s case against him, however, has never been successfully challenged despite numerous valiant attempts.
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."
Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
Well, he would have lost his bet. And since if he knew anything about Bristol he would not have made it, no, it was not reasonable. It was a typical pompous sneer based on his own metropolitan ignorance.
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
He said "many people". The bit about those people living in Bristol only exists in your head.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?
Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?
The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
The fact the people of the city have already stated their opinion that they wanted it kept, it makes this act even worse. It is absolute mob rule.
It is absolute anarchy.
1. It's totally unwarranted hooliganism and disorder in any case. 2. It seriously threatens public health because of COVID.
The government needs to stop wringing its hands and instead get the police and if necessary the army to do whatever it takes to clear the streets of these vermin including sending a very clear signal to others that it is not a good idea to join them.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."
Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
Well, he would have lost his bet. And since if he knew anything about Bristol he would not have made it, no, it was not reasonable. It was a typical pompous sneer based on his own metropolitan ignorance.
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
He said "many people". The bit about those people living in Bristol only exists in your head.
Who else does it concern?
People who are now getting to know what Edward Colston did, because they're reading this news story?
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
"Not that long ago Professor Tim Leunig, an advisor to the Chancellor, suggested that the food sector was 'not critically important' and that agriculture and fisheries 'certainly isn’t'." Wow! He's now chief scientific adviser at the Department for Education; according to the Daily Mail he "has influence in the departments of Education, Environment and Treasury"; and "he shares with Dominic Cummings a desire for radical thinking". It certainly sounds like it. Another thing he shares with Cummings is that David Cameron has called him potty:
"Tim (Leunig's) most controversial policy idea – until today – was to pull all Government support from 'failed' Northern cities and encourage the inhabitants to migrate South. 'Barmy,' said a furious David Cameron, who was Tory leader when Dr Leunig floated it in a think-tank report in 2008. 'Rubbish from start to finish.' "
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."
Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
Well, he would have lost his bet. And since if he knew anything about Bristol he would not have made it, no, it was not reasonable. It was a typical pompous sneer based on his own metropolitan ignorance.
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
He said "many people". The bit about those people living in Bristol only exists in your head.
Who else does it concern?
People who are now getting to know what Edward Colston did, because they're reading this news story?
Why? It’s a statue in Bristol. It’s a statue the people of Bristol decided to keep, including the descendants of some of his victims. I can understand some descendants of slaves shipped to the Americas on Colston’s ships might have other views, but Owen Jones is not one of them.
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
On the last thread an argument was made by many that this was exactly the way to go. That in seeking to understand and address the issue of race today in the UK, our history of Empire and Colonialism ought not to feature at all. I'm guessing those making the argument to forget history where it illuminates now wish to continue to commemorate it where it shames and offends. I suggest they have it the wrong way round.
I was pretty surprised and depressed by the BBC’s report that “a policewoman was injured after falling off her horse”
Well do you think some toerag throwing their bike at a defenceless animal might have something to do with it? And do you think that was relevant to mention?
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
Better than glorifying people who got rich trading in their fellow human beings, yes. I would have preferred to see it taken down in an orderly way by the appropriate authorities, certainly, and a country that had come to terms with its past would have removed it decades ago, but this is better than letting it stand another day.
Oh but of course, let's establish a precedent that emotional incontinence is a sufficient justification for violence and vandalism.
What could possibly go wrong?
It might surprise you, but mobs of people tearing down statues don't tend to be particularly concerned about precedent.
I think some things now depend on the response in Bristol.
If they give in to the mob - as Manx Radio and Poetry Wales have done - then this debate will not be productive.
I think the relevant comparisons are probably Edward Woollard and Charlie Gilmour.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?
Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?
The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
The fact the people of the city have already stated their opinion that they wanted it kept, it makes this act even worse. It is absolute mob rule.
It is absolute anarchy.
1. It's totally unwarranted hooliganism and disorder in any case. 2. It seriously threatens public health because of COVID.
The government needs to stop wringing its hands and instead get the police and if necessary the army to do whatever it takes to clear the streets of these vermin including sending a very clear signal to others that it is not a good idea to join them.
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
Yeah, they seem to think erasing history is the way to go.
On the last thread an argument was made by many that this was exactly the way to go. That in addressing the issue of race today in the UK, our history of Empire and Colonialism ought not to feature at all. I'm guessing those making the argument to forget history where it illuminates now wish to remember it where it shames and offends. I suggest they have it the wrong way round.
Both views are equally dumb. Instead, I give you George Santayana: ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."
Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
Well, he would have lost his bet. And since if he knew anything about Bristol he would not have made it, no, it was not reasonable. It was a typical pompous sneer based on his own metropolitan ignorance.
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
He said "many people". The bit about those people living in Bristol only exists in your head.
Who else does it concern?
People who are now getting to know what Edward Colston did, because they're reading this news story?
Why? It’s a statue in Bristol. It’s a statue the people of Bristol decided to keep, including the descendants of some of his victims. I can understand some descendants of slaves shipped to the Americas on Colston’s ships might have other views, but Owen Jones is not one of them.
And in his opinion vandalism of Karl Marx grave is horrendous...you can't have it both way. I liked this bloke, so I will ignore all the bad, and it is an outrage that somebody would do such a thing. I don't like this other bloke, so going to cheer on criminal behaviour.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
Leaving aside the fact that, as I noted upthread, they wanted to keep it have you noticed that everybody in the video is white?
Is there not something rather strange and indeed disturbing about a bunch of white people dictating what non-white people should think and feel and taking violent action on their behalf?
The hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t alarming.
The fact the people of the city have already stated their opinion that they wanted it kept, it makes this act even worse. It is absolute mob rule.
It is absolute anarchy.
1. It's totally unwarranted hooliganism and disorder in any case. 2. It seriously threatens public health because of COVID.
The government needs to stop wringing its hands and instead get the police and if necessary the army to do whatever it takes to clear the streets of these vermin including sending a very clear signal to others that it is not a good idea to join them.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
Better than glorifying people who got rich trading in their fellow human beings, yes. I would have preferred to see it taken down in an orderly way by the appropriate authorities, certainly, and a country that had come to terms with its past would have removed it decades ago, but this is better than letting it stand another day.
Oh but of course, let's establish a precedent that emotional incontinence is a sufficient justification for violence and vandalism.
What could possibly go wrong?
It might surprise you, but mobs of people tearing down statues don't tend to be particularly concerned about precedent.
I think some things now depend on the response in Bristol.
If they give in to the mob - as Manx Radio and Poetry Wales have done - then this debate will not be productive.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.
Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
when it suits their agenda, otherwise they would be outraged, tossers.
Well, yeah? I don't know why you think it's so strange or hypocritical that the response to a statue being torn down should depend on what it was a statue of.
Well, if Jones thinks that nobody knows what Colston did, he’s a fool as it is very well known in Bristol who he was and what his business empire included. Only a few years ago the main concert hall was renamed over this very issue.
What these people may be unaware of is that there were a number of debates over this statue a few years ago and the clinching argument against removal came from the descendants of slaves, who found it actually stimulated interest in and concern for the links of Bristol to the slave trade, and were afraid that removing it would just erase them from common memory.
He says "I bet this is the first time many people get to know what Edward Colston did."
Surely a reasonable statement rather than a foolish one.
Well, he would have lost his bet. And since if he knew anything about Bristol he would not have made it, no, it was not reasonable. It was a typical pompous sneer based on his own metropolitan ignorance.
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
He said "many people". The bit about those people living in Bristol only exists in your head.
Who else does it concern?
People who are now getting to know what Edward Colston did, because they're reading this news story?
"We're rockers and rappers united and strong We're here to talk about Bristol we don't like what's going on (tell it) It's time for some justice it's time for the truth (speak it) We've realized there's only one thing we can do We gotta say I / i I / i I / i Ain't gonna play Colston Hall"
With apologies to Steven Van Zandt and Artists Against Apartheid
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
And now we have a lawyer arguing in favour of illegal action. You couldn't make this insanity up...
This action was not legal, and doubtless the perpetrators will be punished according to the law, but it was morally right. Property was damaged, not lives. It’s just a chunk of metal and stone. It might even be put back up.
People like you enjoy watching the rights and lives of others get destroyed, decry the protesting the murder of a black man as inconsequentially “woke”, but when an inanimate representation of a slave trader gets damaged you go ballistic. Property over lives is the constant refrain of the right. You couldn’t make this insanity up
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
Better than glorifying people who got rich trading in their fellow human beings, yes. I would have preferred to see it taken down in an orderly way by the appropriate authorities, certainly, and a country that had come to terms with its past would have removed it decades ago, but this is better than letting it stand another day.
Oh but of course, let's establish a precedent that emotional incontinence is a sufficient justification for violence and vandalism.
What could possibly go wrong?
It might surprise you, but mobs of people tearing down statues don't tend to be particularly concerned about precedent.
I think some things now depend on the response in Bristol.
If they give in to the mob - as Manx Radio and Poetry Wales have done - then this debate will not be productive.
Marvin Rees, the mayor of Bristol is a massive Corbynista Maomentumer and of Jamaican heritage, I am sure like wee Owen he will be right on board with this.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
And now we have a lawyer arguing in favour of illegal action. You couldn't make this insanity up...
This action was not legal, and doubtless the perpetrators will be punished according to the law, but it was morally right. Property was damaged, not lives. It’s just a chunk of metal and stone. It might even be put back up.
People like you enjoy watching the rights and lives of others get destroyed, decry the protesting the murder of a black man as inconsequentially “woke”, but when an inanimate representation of a slave trader gets damaged you go ballistic. Property over lives is the constant refrain of the right. You couldn’t make this insanity up
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
I see after the massive outrage of Big Dom lockdown breaking, Labour politicians like Nandy are advocating for breaking the rules, because somethings are bigger and more immediate than a worldwide pandemic that is more dangerous to individuals from BAME backgrounds.
But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.
Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
when it suits their agenda, otherwise they would be outraged, tossers.
Well, yeah? I don't know why you think it's so strange or hypocritical that the response to a statue being torn down should depend on what it was a statue of.
I don't give a crap what is is of, the morons are rioting and destroying public property, they should be treated accordingly , a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum. No excuses for the toerags.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
And now we have a lawyer arguing in favour of illegal action. You couldn't make this insanity up...
This action was not legal, and doubtless the perpetrators will be punished according to the law, but it was morally right. Property was damaged, not lives. It’s just a chunk of metal and stone. It might even be put back up.
People like you enjoy watching the rights and lives of others get destroyed, decry the protesting the murder of a black man as inconsequentially “woke”, but when an inanimate representation of a slave trader gets damaged you go ballistic. Property over lives is the constant refrain of the right. You couldn’t make this insanity up
I might have guessed a halfwitted poltroon like you would have supported the criminals.
Half the street signs in England to be ripped up and replaced ?
Well basically the most of the old parts of Bristol needs to be flatten first. The whole of the city centre was basically created from slave trade money.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
Better than glorifying people who got rich trading in their fellow human beings, yes. I would have preferred to see it taken down in an orderly way by the appropriate authorities, certainly, and a country that had come to terms with its past would have removed it decades ago, but this is better than letting it stand another day.
Oh but of course, let's establish a precedent that emotional incontinence is a sufficient justification for violence and vandalism.
What could possibly go wrong?
Your reaction to the damage caused to a statute (“violence and vandalism”) compared to the reaction to death of a black man and the legacy of the lace trade (“emotional incontinence”) quite instructive. One might even think you place more value on the statute.
Half the street signs in England to be ripped up and replaced ?
Well, that’s an idea with some merit in fairness, as long as (a) they are redesigned before being replaced and (b) you make it all of them not most of them.
But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.
Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
when it suits their agenda, otherwise they would be outraged, tossers.
Well, yeah? I don't know why you think it's so strange or hypocritical that the response to a statue being torn down should depend on what it was a statue of.
I don't give a crap what is is of, the morons are rioting and destroying public property, they should be treated accordingly , a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum. No excuses for the toerags.
'a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum' - Malcolm I am with you on this, but frankly you are being gentle given the threat that these people are causing to the national COVID recovery.
Why should the welfare of the country as a whole be allowed to be threatened by these louts? Sort it out please Priti!
Half the street signs in England to be ripped up and replaced ?
Well basically the most of the old parts of Bristol needs to be flatten first. The whole of the city centre was basically created from slave trade money.
I'd be very much in favour of flattening Liverpool.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.
Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
when it suits their agenda, otherwise they would be outraged, tossers.
Well, yeah? I don't know why you think it's so strange or hypocritical that the response to a statue being torn down should depend on what it was a statue of.
I don't give a crap what is is of, the morons are rioting and destroying public property, they should be treated accordingly , a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum. No excuses for the toerags.
'a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum' - Malcolm I am with you on this, but frankly you are being gentle given the threat that these people are causing to the national COVID recovery.
Why should the welfare of the country as a whole be allowed to be threatened by these louts? Sort it out please Priti!
At this point it might be worth reminding both of you that corporal punishment is no longer used in this country.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
In this specific case, it most certainly is! Put it in a museum. Black people should not be forced to view a monument to a man who saw them as chattel.
And now we have a lawyer arguing in favour of illegal action. You couldn't make this insanity up...
This action was not legal, and doubtless the perpetrators will be punished according to the law, but it was morally right. Property was damaged, not lives. It’s just a chunk of metal and stone. It might even be put back up.
People like you enjoy watching the rights and lives of others get destroyed, decry the protesting the murder of a black man as inconsequentially “woke”, but when an inanimate representation of a slave trader gets damaged you go ballistic. Property over lives is the constant refrain of the right. You couldn’t make this insanity up
That man was murdered on another continent and the men who killed him have been arrested and will stand trial - the normal operation of justice is in effect.
How the hell can that event justify the destruction of historic monuments in this country? It can't - these moronic vandals have nothing comparable to protest about, but their narcissistic need for righteous anger is so great that they'll just borrow it anyway - stolen outrage, if you will.
But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.
Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
when it suits their agenda, otherwise they would be outraged, tossers.
Well, yeah? I don't know why you think it's so strange or hypocritical that the response to a statue being torn down should depend on what it was a statue of.
I don't give a crap what is is of, the morons are rioting and destroying public property, they should be treated accordingly , a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum. No excuses for the toerags.
'a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum' - Malcolm I am with you on this, but frankly you are being gentle given the threat that these people are causing to the national COVID recovery.
Why should the welfare of the country as a whole be allowed to be threatened by these louts? Sort it out please Priti!
At this point it might be worth reminding both of you that corporal punishment is no longer used in this country.
Ydoethur , they could at least set the dogs on them and then beat the crap out of them before ferrying them to jail. PS : what is the point of the police having all these dogs and horses but not using them
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
"On Saturday, I went out fox-hunting – seven hours in the saddle, That sort of thing always keeps me in a state of devilish excitement for several days; it’s the greatest physical pleasure I know. I saw only two out of the whole field who were better horsemen than myself, but then they were also better mounted… At least 20 of the chaps fell off or came down, two horses were done for, one fox killed (I was in AT THE DEATH)."
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
I see this argument in so many guises (including multiple times in this thread) and I just never understand how it makes sense to the person writing it. It's like saying "Oh, he donated money to Cancer Research UK, and you think that's okay? So what if somebody just chooses to go donate money to ISIS, are you okay with that, buddy?"
Half the street signs in England to be ripped up and replaced ?
Well basically the most of the old parts of Bristol needs to be flatten first. The whole of the city centre was basically created from slave trade money.
The Luftwaffe beat you to it. For example, they burned the Dutch House.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
They should arrest them and give them minimum 2 years in the army, that would sort the woke jessies out.
But have the mob rip them down in the meantime. No, that isn't how we do it in Britain.
Its amazing how people are willing to excuse this sort of behaviour.
when it suits their agenda, otherwise they would be outraged, tossers.
Well, yeah? I don't know why you think it's so strange or hypocritical that the response to a statue being torn down should depend on what it was a statue of.
I don't give a crap what is is of, the morons are rioting and destroying public property, they should be treated accordingly , a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum. No excuses for the toerags.
'a severe thrashing and jail as a minimum' - Malcolm I am with you on this, but frankly you are being gentle given the threat that these people are causing to the national COVID recovery.
Why should the welfare of the country as a whole be allowed to be threatened by these louts? Sort it out please Priti!
At this point it might be worth reminding both of you that corporal punishment is no longer used in this country.
Ydoethur , they could at least set the dogs on them and then beat the crap out of them before ferrying them to jail. PS : what is the point of the police having all these dogs and horses but not using them
That’s how the whole thing started, Malc.
Admittedly, as the Bristol police are much more racially diverse than those protestors, they couldn’t be accused of acting from racist motives.
Good. Should have been taken down years ago, it's a shame it took concerned citizens to act for it to go.
Yes, illegal vandalism of historic monuments by a mob is so wonderful, isn't it?
Better than glorifying people who got rich trading in their fellow human beings, yes. I would have preferred to see it taken down in an orderly way by the appropriate authorities, certainly, and a country that had come to terms with its past would have removed it decades ago, but this is better than letting it stand another day.
Oh but of course, let's establish a precedent that emotional incontinence is a sufficient justification for violence and vandalism.
What could possibly go wrong?
Your reaction to the damage caused to a statute (“violence and vandalism”) compared to the reaction to death of a black man and the legacy of the lace trade (“emotional incontinence”) quite instructive. One might even think you place more value on the statute.
Would you use the excuse of crimes committed in another country and unjust events from hundreds of years ago as a defence in a trial for mob violence today? You'd be laughed out of fucking court, and you know it!
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
It is indeed curious that the posters who seem to get most angry about things on here are the very same ones who habitually describe others as snowflakes for getting angry about things.
I suspect the CPS will decide it is not in the public interest to prosecute
So it's open season on "statues I don't like"?
I don't like the Bergkamp statue at the Emirates. They should have had him sat on a bench given that's where he spent a lot of his time.
There's a statue of someone called Aneurin Bevan outside Burger King, where Queen Street meets Castle Street in Cardiff. Youngsters think he was some sort of local character famous for wearing a traffic cone instead of a hat.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
I see this argument in so many guises (including multiple times in this thread) and I just never understand how it makes sense to the person writing it. It's like saying "Oh, he donated money to Cancer Research UK, and you think that's okay? So what if somebody just chooses to go donate money to ISIS, are you okay with that, buddy?"
Now you are talking utter garbage , what has donating to cancer research got to do with yobbos breaking the law and arsepipes like you supporting them.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
I agree and its precisely this fusion of events and individuals in history that is dubious at best is why people should not have the right to declare open season on monuments
I fear the authorities might be repeating the mistakes of 2011 riots...they went far too easy for too long and it spiralled out of control. As soon as the real scum see that the authorities are giving people free passes to more minor indiscretions, they will jump on the opportunity.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
I see this argument in so many guises (including multiple times in this thread) and I just never understand how it makes sense to the person writing it. It's like saying "Oh, he donated money to Cancer Research UK, and you think that's okay? So what if somebody just chooses to go donate money to ISIS, are you okay with that, buddy?"
Now you are talking utter garbage , what has donating to cancer research got to do with yobbos breaking the law and arsepipes like you supporting them.
I'll be very pleasantly surprised if we don't see coronavirus infections increase in the cities where the largest protests have taken place.
As I posted last night, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, New York, Atlanta, all seen rising number of new cases over the past week, reversing the downward trend. Portland it was down to something like 18 new cases, now up at nearly a 100.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
Act of Union, perhaps, malcolm ?
(Oh, statues, not statutes.... )
Time we were out on the streets Nigel, these yobbo criminals are setting a bad example. Hundreds of independence marches and not an arrest apart from the odd Britnat agitator. We could show them how law abiding upstanding citizens act. The worst scum are out on the streets just now and they are getting away with murder
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
You mean, nobody was hurt pulling it down. We can’t know that they haven’t damaged lives given that they are breaking every rule of lockdown in the middle of a pandemic.
For every 100 infections, one person dies on average. Every one of these large protests is probably killing several dozen.
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Does everybody get to revisit history and pick the statues they want removed then.
I see this argument in so many guises (including multiple times in this thread) and I just never understand how it makes sense to the person writing it. It's like saying "Oh, he donated money to Cancer Research UK, and you think that's okay? So what if somebody just chooses to go donate money to ISIS, are you okay with that, buddy?"
Now you are talking utter garbage , what has donating to cancer research got to do with yobbos breaking the law and arsepipes like you supporting them.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
They should arrest them and give them minimum 2 years in the army, that would sort the woke jessies out.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
Personally, it's Marx & Engels leaden prose I found particularly offensive. Killing the bourgeoisie through revolutionary terror is only a minor sin in comparison.
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
Personally, it's Marx & Engels leaden prose I found particularly offensive. Killing the bourgeoisie through revolutionary terror is only a minor sin in comparison.
If it’s any consolation, it’s worse in the original German.
I see "woke" has joined the collection of pejorative terms used by some on the Right - it can proudly take its place alongside "liberal", "metropolitan elite", "Guardian reading", "intellectual", "lefties", "progressive" and so many others.
It's odd how it's become an insult. Implies that the opposite - comatose - is something desirable. Still, observing many of those 'some on the Right' you refer to, perhaps it is!
The point is that the term condescendingly implies that the 'woke' possess some superior level of consciousness relative to the rest of the poor benighted population. Whereas all it means in practice is that some people have imbibed a leftwing ideology that has filled them with righteous fury and they're going to ram it down everyone else's throats by whatever means necessary.
“By whatever means necessary”. Lord you’re a snowflake. What I think you mean is “makes me feel uncomfortable about the smug assumptions regardingI have been happy to wallow in my entire comfortable life”.
No, I mean the fucking violence of mob rule currently on display in Bristol and elsewhere. I hope that clarifies matters for you.
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
In fairness, they've just been victimised by lockdown for a disease which doesn't affect them, and now find themselves often without jobs or prospects. Personally, I'd rather they took their rage out on a statue, no matter how listed, than on people or businesses.
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
Well thats ok then......
Shakes head
There are some real dumbos walking the streets for sure
I have an image of a convoy of PB Tories (each in a Lexus) heading towards Manchester to haul down the statue of Engels.
A better idea - as suggested upthread although I can’t remember by whom - would be to leave it in place and opposite it put a memorial to the roughly one billion victims of Communism.
It is a bit of a stretch to hold Engels responsible for the actions of Stalin, Mao, et al.
Is it? Stalin in particular seems to have believed that by acting as he did he was building a communist society based on Marxist ideals. Mao is a more complex character but to suggest he wasn’t influenced by Communism in his actions is to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
I think it's harsh on Marx and Engels to blame them for what followed. Same with Ratzel and lebensraum.
Really?
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
Personally, it's Marx & Engels leaden prose I found particularly offensive. Killing the bourgeoisie through revolutionary terror is only a minor sin in comparison.
"A spectre is haunting Europe—the spectre of communism" is an electrifying way to start a book. Never got any further with it though.
Comments
Just as I do not opine about his native city of Sheffield, which I know hardly anything about, so he should not project his lack of knowledge onto others.
No surprise, the Bushes think Trump stole the 2016 GOP nomination that was rightfully Jeb's.
Mitt Romney will write in his wife's name rather than vote for Trump, Cindy McCain will go all the way and vote for Biden.
However all the above hated Trump in 2016 so no real change and Powell voted for both Obama and Hillary.
What the voters in the rustbelt swing states who voted for Trump in 2016 think is far more relevant
A combination of 1&4 is probably the way through. I’m less fussed about antibiotic or hormone usage (I track both fairly closely and they are way down in the US) but animal welfare needs to be a critical concern
1. It's totally unwarranted hooliganism and disorder in any case.
2. It seriously threatens public health because of COVID.
The government needs to stop wringing its hands and instead get the police and if necessary the army to do whatever it takes to clear the streets of these vermin including sending a very clear signal to others that it is not a good idea to join them.
The general thrust of Shakespeare’s case against him, however, has never been successfully challenged despite numerous valiant attempts.
I suspect the CPS will decide it is not in the public interest to prosecute
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1269647899790540800?s=20
The stupid snowflakes are the ones who don't have the emotional IQ to see a historical monument they find objectionable without launching into a frenzy of violence.
Well do you think some toerag throwing their bike at a defenceless animal might have something to do with it? And do you think that was relevant to mention?
If they give in to the mob - as Manx Radio and Poetry Wales have done - then this debate will not be productive.
I think the relevant comparisons are probably Edward Woollard and Charlie Gilmour.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/08/25/obituaries/john-mccain-dead.amp.html
We're here to talk about Bristol we don't like what's going on (tell it)
It's time for some justice it's time for the truth (speak it)
We've realized there's only one thing we can do
We gotta say
I / i
I / i
I / i
Ain't gonna play Colston Hall"
With apologies to Steven Van Zandt and Artists Against Apartheid
People like you enjoy watching the rights and lives of others get destroyed, decry the protesting the murder of a black man as inconsequentially “woke”, but when an inanimate representation of a slave trader gets damaged you go ballistic. Property over lives is the constant refrain of the right. You couldn’t make this insanity up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Margaret_Thatcher_(London_Guildhall)
Half the street signs in England to be ripped up and replaced ?
https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1269648472925442049?s=20
Having said that, statues to slavers should have been removed years ago.
Why should the welfare of the country as a whole be allowed to be threatened by these louts? Sort it out please Priti!
How the hell can that event justify the destruction of historic monuments in this country? It can't - these moronic vandals have nothing comparable to protest about, but their narcissistic need for righteous anger is so great that they'll just borrow it anyway - stolen outrage, if you will.
PS : what is the point of the police having all these dogs and horses but not using them
A young friend in New York has been out several nights in a row. He's not political, so I asked him why, and he said that, with everything shut, there's nothing else to do, and he has no money to do it anyway.
Letter Engels to Marx 1857.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1269649063353475072?s=20
(Oh, statues, not statutes....
https://twitter.com/faizashaheen/status/1269638495343128579?s=20
Admittedly, as the Bristol police are much more racially diverse than those protestors, they couldn’t be accused of acting from racist motives.
The worst scum are out on the streets just now and they are getting away with murder
Shakes head
there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/11/06.htm
Peer of the Realm encourages law breaking....
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1269653180150943746?s=20
Both think the rules don't apply to them.
I’m just pointing out that if there isn’t, that is good news.