This is no longer about Dominic Cummings. It is about Boris Johnson.
Indeed. The media have decided to make it a trial of strength do the government can’t afford to lose.
But unless there is new information why would the government backdown?
So the media will get bored and move on at some point.
In the meantime none of the important stuff, like the new lockdown rules, gets air time. But apparently it’s not the media’s fault for not writing about them.
If the Government really wanted the press to focus on something else, they could do so within 12 hours.
All it takes is a single announcement.
And without it this entire next phase of the disease won't be track and trace, it will be hunker down as the Government has failed.
This is no longer about Dominic Cummings. It is about Boris Johnson.
Indeed. The media have decided to make it a trial of strength do the government can’t afford to lose.
But unless there is new information why would the government backdown?
So the media will get bored and move on at some point.
In the meantime none of the important stuff, like the new lockdown rules, gets air time. But apparently it’s not the media’s fault for not writing about them.
The Daily Mail is pursuing an agenda to bring down the Tory government? Really?
I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
I don’t know if you’re married...
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
I think every man knows this situation, but avoiding a tiff isn't a err excuse to break the rules @Charles.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.
How did I miss you were an Ayn Rand groupie?
Not how Homo sapiens became the dominant species on the planet, though. If selfishness was more important, Neanderthals would still be about.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.
So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.
Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.
Oh yes I do.
72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that
"Among Wealthy Nations U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
I don’t know if you’re married...
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
Is there any evidence that Mrs C wanted desperately to go to her in-laws? I know that in those circs. my wife would have wanted her Mum. Even in her late 30's.
In key news that is being missed due to Covid 19 and Dominic Cummings’ novel method of testing his eyes:
The UK has just had its driest May for 124 years, its driest spring since 2011, and its fifth driest spring of all time.
That doesn’t mean we’re facing immediate prolonged water shortages as the winter was of course very wet. That said, rivers are dropping steadily. It has unfortunate implications for food prices.
There is no rain, or at least, very very little, forecast for the rest of the week, and rainfall is currently 20% below the driest recorded May of the 20th century.
No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules.
The Barnard Castle trip met no exceptions.
It broke the rules
He admitted to it
On live TV
Safety is an exemption. It made sense to do it. He's not been convicted of anything so it's alleged he broke the rules not shown he has. Your being on a witch-hunt doesn't make it right.
“He’s not been convicted” is the worst kind of argument from authority fallacy. Taken to its logical extreme you could argue a fact can’t be true until a court says it is. He hasn’t been charged. I believe he should be charged but he hasn’t. So a court is unable to opine. Thus it is wholly open to the rest of us to make assertions as to truth/reasonable opinion on the evidence we have available to us. And there is more than enough evidence to reach that conclusion.
Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.
Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
Its prima facie. Even the majority of Tory voters can see that. The court of public opinion has sat and looked at the evidence and looked at his various testimonies written and spoken and judged him to be lying through his teeth.
Those of you insisting he remains innocent - how long will you keep this up? I hope for a long long time - his presence in the government is a marvellous boost to the Labour Party.
Even a majority thinking someone is guilty doesn't make them guilty. People are innocent until proven guilty that is a fundamental part of law. If you want to allege someone is guilty then the word to use is allegedly.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That applies to all alleged criminal cases.
No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules.
The Barnard Castle trip met no exceptions.
It broke the rules
He admitted to it
On live TV
Safety is an exemption. It made sense to do it. He's not been convicted of anything so it's alleged he broke the rules not shown he has. Your being on a witch-hunt doesn't make it right.
“He’s not been convicted” is the worst kind of argument from authority fallacy. Taken to its logical extreme you could argue a fact can’t be true until a court says it is. He hasn’t been charged. I believe he should be charged but he hasn’t. So a court is unable to opine. Thus it is wholly open to the rest of us to make assertions as to truth/reasonable opinion on the evidence we have available to us. And there is more than enough evidence to reach that conclusion.
Isnt that argument frequently used by the Russian elite?
There is a Royal Charter which applies until 2026. This isn't, in fact, like an Act of Parliament.
I am not suggesting they privatise it next week. But it is not too early to start up a committee "looking into the replacement of the licence fee in 2026 and the longer term role of the BBC".
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
I don't doubt that that is the plan, but with Brexit done, there are not the guns, god and abortion issues that are the touchstone there.
A bit of flag waving and bashing the foreigners perhaps, but I don't think that enough.
Still 4 years to go, but I can see 2024 being another 1997. The palpable sense of decay, incompetence and confusion amongst the government grows by the day. BoZo is asleep at the wheel.
I think is unfair to describe him as “asleep at the wheel” and as a doctor you should know better.
He’s just recovering from a near death experience. It’s increasingly looking like this is going to be extended and if it doesn’t improve soon - say in the next couple of months - then I think he should step down. (Although I’d hope there would be a quick replacement selected given the need to plan for a second wave).
But your tone is perjorative and lacks the sympathy expected of someone who should understand better
Thanks for that Scott, but I daresay it will be lost on the Boris fanboys.
If they can't see a difference between Stephen Kinnock and his family walking half a mile to place a packaged birthday cake on Neil's doorstep then retreat 10 metres before Neil and Glenys emerge from the house, remaining 10 metres away at all times and the Cummings stunt the position is hopeless. On that basis an uptick in Covid bed occupancy in England will indicate to them that the government have done a fantastic job and the pandemic is over.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
I grew up in a large city, and live in a medium-sided one, where almost everyone was and is anonymous to me. I've only ever once accidentally met someone I know when walking around.
This anonymity can feel quite uncomfortable, and it's easy to be wistful about the idea of a stronger community. My wife, talking about her experience of growing up in a village, disabused me of these romantic notions. It's a lot more complicated.
Yes, there are obvious plus points. It can also be stifling and intolerant of difference and there's a real value to the freedom of not being watched and judged for being yourself.
It would be simplistic to say that the challenge is to find the best of both worlds, a happy medium. There are real trade-offs involved that can't be so easily brushed off. I don't think you can simply take an average
I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
I don’t know if you’re married...
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.
Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.
Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
It’s also rather interesting that Starmer has not opined on the legal aspects of this at any point, despite being a former DPP and therefore likely to understand them better than just about anyone.
He has been very reserved.
But then, why does he need to say anything when the government are busy trashing themselves and transparently lying all over the place?
No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules.
The Barnard Castle trip met no exceptions.
It broke the rules
He admitted to it
On live TV
Safety is an exemption. It made sense to do it. He's not been convicted of anything so it's alleged he broke the rules not shown he has. Your being on a witch-hunt doesn't make it right.
I don't think that's his stated justification.
I think his argument was that it was essential for work purposes that he physically return to work (his old blog posts won't doctor themselves, and there's famously no internet in Durham). It was therefore necessary to give himself an eye test by driving to a beauty spot with his family on his wife's birthday. When there, he had to leave the car for slightly unclear reasons. It was entirely impossible to return to London with someone else driving, again for unspecified reasons.
I hope this clears it up.
Maybe, what with his bad eyesight an' all he thought he had reached his office and got out of the car to go to work.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.
Will Dominic Cummings still be in post on 1st June?
A slight shift to Cummings resigning, overnight.
Starsports seems to have taken the market down
I cant see how he can resign or be fired now, it is surely too late?
Cummings can resign but he is leaving it a bit late. If you believe it is too late then Ladbrokes is paying better than your building society for a 4-day investment.
Oops -- prices the wrong way round for PP. It should of course be
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
No no, GET BREXIT DONE was the slogan for the election. Vote Tory and we will GET BREXIT DONE. No more delays beyond the end of January. And there were no more delays - we left. We're now in the transition having departed. Thats what punters were told endlessly by this government. Thats why people voted for this government. People didn't know or care how it actually worked other than it was bad. Its done.
As for WTO the Tories have a majority of 80 and have the mandate to do whatever they see fit. We've already had a warmup for what no deal will look like and people didn't like. Apparently many Brexiteer Tories insist GATT24 means we go WTO and can do what we like. Despite the outgoing head of the WTO pointing out this is bollocks and reaching for the popcorn.
No deal declared in July as some kind of triumph will be met largely with "so what" followed by anger when people realise the privations the government are now imposing on them. Already seen the start of that with the Mail reporting of US food demands. "Not the Brexit we voted for". Remember - people didn't vote for a destination after we left the EU - that is a political decision of the govenment. If they fuck it up the blame won't be put on the average Brexit voter, it'll be on the government for screwing up after we left.
"Not the Brexit we voted for". It'd better be good than what we had before...
As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
It is acceptable to make an assertion as to fact without the word “allegedly” and without a court agreeing. I do it all day every day. If lawyers chucked the word “allegedly” in every time they asserted a fact in a letter before claim to an opponent, or a pleading, it would actually be used against them to suggest they did not believe what they had asserted. Bad drafting. In the context of the message board, Mr Borough was either being truthful or giving an honest opinion, both of which clearly allow him to to make those assertions as to fact without this farcical HIGNFY inspired habit of putting “allegedly” in every sentence as some sort of magic anti-defamation spell.
The BBC are not lawyers. The prosecution or defence of a case have a clearly understood bias that they are presenting their interpretation of the facts that suits their client.
That doesn't apply to the BBC. Who is the BBC's client? The BBC always uses the word allegedly normally ... I dare you to find any other case where a BBC journalist pronounces someone guilty of a pending Police investigation without using the word allegedly. Any at all would do.
Also this isn't about the linguistic stylings of Mr Borough but Maitlis on Newsnight.
Cummings has pretensions that go way beyond being a spin doctor. The defenestration of Sajid Javid shows that he is central to the direction of government policy.
This is why he can't be easily discarded like any other adviser. As he himself said, he's a decision-maker. He's in charge.
The government as we've known it since Johnson became PM would be over if Cummings leaves.
If the second wave doesn't come very soon, well I'm a Dutchman!
There is no second wave.
You don't learn from your own mistakes, do you? Remember when there was never going to be a first wave because so many more people (16-17 on average) die of suicide every day?
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.
So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.
Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.
Oh yes I do.
72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that
"Among Wealthy Nations U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
You just cherry picked one poll too based on very important, not just important.
As I said Poland, Greece, Portugal and Italy overall have more saying religion is important to them than the USA
The early May Bank Holiday contributed to both the decrease in the number of deaths registered in Week 19 and the increase in the number of deaths registered in Week 20, as deaths were unlikely to be registered on Friday 8 May. Next week’s report will allow a better assessment of recent trends in the number of all-cause deaths and deaths related to COVID.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Remember this is the third Brexit
Brexit 1 - the Groans of the Britons - when Europe refused to assist the inhabitants of this island
Brexit 2 - Henry VIII - when the Europeans tried to interfere in British social policy
Brexit 3 - today - when the Europeans tried to tell the British what to do
As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
Its prima facie. Even the majority of Tory voters can see that. The court of public opinion has sat and looked at the evidence and looked at his various testimonies written and spoken and judged him to be lying through his teeth.
Those of you insisting he remains innocent - how long will you keep this up? I hope for a long long time - his presence in the government is a marvellous boost to the Labour Party.
Even a majority thinking someone is guilty doesn't make them guilty. People are innocent until proven guilty that is a fundamental part of law. If you want to allege someone is guilty then the word to use is allegedly.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That applies to all alleged criminal cases.
“Alleged criminal cases” - do we have to express doubt as to the existence of actual litigation itself now? “The barrister allegedly went to court, allegedly to defend his client”
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
I don't doubt that that is the plan, but with Brexit done, there are not the guns, god and abortion issues that are the touchstone there.
A bit of flag waving and bashing the foreigners perhaps, but I don't think that enough.
Still 4 years to go, but I can see 2024 being another 1997. The palpable sense of decay, incompetence and confusion amongst the government grows by the day. BoZo is asleep at the wheel.
I think is unfair to describe him as “asleep at the wheel” and as a doctor you should know better.
He’s just recovering from a near death experience. It’s increasingly looking like this is going to be extended and if it doesn’t improve soon - say in the next couple of months - then I think he should step down. (Although I’d hope there would be a quick replacement selected given the need to plan for a second wave).
But your tone is perjorative and lacks the sympathy expected of someone who should understand better
Mate, if he's too ill right now to be Prime Minister he should not be being Prime Minister he should be resting and recuperating.
If he wants to be Prime Minister he gets to be criticised like a normal person would for being bad at being Prime Minister.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.
Shame on them. Lying Bastards. They don’t give a damn for the normal people of this country.
Be careful - that’s a push piece. Basically an amendment was rejected. That doesn’t mean that the government intends to lower standards. It just means they rejected the amendment
I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
I don’t know if you’re married...
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.
Charles is running a perfect interference pattern for Dom here. It is textbook classic. All while saying he never defended Cummings.
Thanks for that Scott, but I daresay it will be lost on the Boris fanboys.
If they can't see a difference between Stephen Kinnock and his family walking half a mile to place a packaged birthday cake on Neil's doorstep then retreat 10 metres before Neil and Glenys emerge from the house, remaining 10 metres away at all times and the Cummings stunt the position is hopeless. On that basis an uptick in Covid bed occupancy in England will indicate to them that the government have done a fantastic job and the pandemic is over.
So all the other stats and studies showing deaths coming down hugely you ignore? For example
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
No no, GET BREXIT DONE was the slogan for the election. Vote Tory and we will GET BREXIT DONE. No more delays beyond the end of January. And there were no more delays - we left. We're now in the transition having departed. Thats what punters were told endlessly by this government. Thats why people voted for this government. People didn't know or care how it actually worked other than it was bad. Its done.
As for WTO the Tories have a majority of 80 and have the mandate to do whatever they see fit. We've already had a warmup for what no deal will look like and people didn't like. Apparently many Brexiteer Tories insist GATT24 means we go WTO and can do what we like. Despite the outgoing head of the WTO pointing out this is bollocks and reaching for the popcorn.
No deal declared in July as some kind of triumph will be met largely with "so what" followed by anger when people realise the privations the government are now imposing on them. Already seen the start of that with the Mail reporting of US food demands. "Not the Brexit we voted for". Remember - people didn't vote for a destination after we left the EU - that is a political decision of the govenment. If they fuck it up the blame won't be put on the average Brexit voter, it'll be on the government for screwing up after we left.
"Not the Brexit we voted for". It'd better be good than what we had before...
63% of Tory voters do not want to extend the transition period, 68% of Leave voters do not want to extend the transition period.
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?
The early May Bank Holiday contributed to both the decrease in the number of deaths registered in Week 19 and the increase in the number of deaths registered in Week 20, as deaths were unlikely to be registered on Friday 8 May. Next week’s report will allow a better assessment of recent trends in the number of all-cause deaths and deaths related to COVID.
If the second wave doesn't come very soon, well I'm a Dutchman!
There is no second wave.
You don't learn from your own mistakes, do you? Remember when there was never going to be a first wave because so many more people (16-17 on average) die of suicide every day?
My favourite Covid Data Wranglers trick now is to point at the latest values in the Euomomo data to show that deaths are back down to normal or even below average.
And every week the data in the shaded zone they are pointing at is revised upwards.
No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules.
The Barnard Castle trip met no exceptions.
It broke the rules
He admitted to it
On live TV
Safety is an exemption. It made sense to do it. He's not been convicted of anything so it's alleged he broke the rules not shown he has. Your being on a witch-hunt doesn't make it right.
“He’s not been convicted” is the worst kind of argument from authority fallacy. Taken to its logical extreme you could argue a fact can’t be true until a court says it is. He hasn’t been charged. I believe he should be charged but he hasn’t. So a court is unable to opine. Thus it is wholly open to the rest of us to make assertions as to truth/reasonable opinion on the evidence we have available to us. And there is more than enough evidence to reach that conclusion.
Open to the rest of us yes. Not open to Emily Maitlis on Newsnight.
As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
Its prima facie. Even the majority of Tory voters can see that. The court of public opinion has sat and looked at the evidence and looked at his various testimonies written and spoken and judged him to be lying through his teeth.
Those of you insisting he remains innocent - how long will you keep this up? I hope for a long long time - his presence in the government is a marvellous boost to the Labour Party.
Even a majority thinking someone is guilty doesn't make them guilty. People are innocent until proven guilty that is a fundamental part of law. If you want to allege someone is guilty then the word to use is allegedly.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That applies to all alleged criminal cases.
“Alleged criminal cases” - do we have to express doubt as to the existence of actual litigation itself now? “The barrister allegedly went to court, allegedly to defend his client”
Well, in fairness Doug there are several cases where you look at them and wonder which side the barrister was actually batting for. Rolf Harris’ defence counsel took diplomatic toothache and the junior counsel basically advised the jury to convict.
Or judges. Should we mention the famous case of Lord Browne, where he was allegedly being judged by David Eady, but was told he’d been a silly boy and allowed to go free after admitting perjury, and effectively conceded fraud and embezzlement?
Both countries have managed to bring the pandemic under control and are in talks over an agreement that would allow flights between the two to resume before normal International flights would be possible.
New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern on Wednesday said a daft blueprint on safe travel between the neighbours would be presented to the two governments in early June.
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Why not? We might as well. Everything is fucked anyway.
I tend to agree with you I’d be interested to know how the usual suspects are going to make money out of all this but I’m sure they will. I just hope weatherspoons go bust along with Trago mills.
No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules. On live TV. Get your facts straight.
Many people who saw his speech still continually claim he said things that he didn’t, and claim he didn’t say things which he did.
It’s clearly now a witch hunt, and the mob are really angry that they didn’t get him.
There’s way more important things in life that need doing today, like working on getting my small business back up and running after two months of almost no income.
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?
They have watched enough Neighbours and Home and Away even if they have not been there
Shame on them. Lying Bastards. They don’t give a damn for the normal people of this country.
Be careful - that’s a push piece. Basically an amendment was rejected. That doesn’t mean that the government intends to lower standards. It just means they rejected the amendment
An amendment with wording identical to that one of the Tories had himself proposed just a while back.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.
How did I miss you were an Ayn Rand groupie?
Not how Homo sapiens became the dominant species on the planet, though. If selfishness was more important, Neanderthals would still be about.
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.
I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
I don’t know if you’re married...
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
If Cummings had confessed to that, and apologised sincerely, he might have got some sympathy.
Instead he arrogantly came out with a cock and bull story because he thinks everyone else is stupid. He seems to be right on that about the cabinet of course.
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
Brexit is done. That happened on January 31st when Johnson put his oven-ready deal into the microwave.
The government is now working on making a reality of Global Britain. Lots of political argument on that one, including on the agriculture bill and the government's competence in reaching a great trade deal with the EU..
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
No no, GET BREXIT DONE was the slogan for the election. Vote Tory and we will GET BREXIT DONE. No more delays beyond the end of January. And there were no more delays - we left. We're now in the transition having departed. Thats what punters were told endlessly by this government. Thats why people voted for this government. People didn't know or care how it actually worked other than it was bad. Its done.
As for WTO the Tories have a majority of 80 and have the mandate to do whatever they see fit. We've already had a warmup for what no deal will look like and people didn't like. Apparently many Brexiteer Tories insist GATT24 means we go WTO and can do what we like. Despite the outgoing head of the WTO pointing out this is bollocks and reaching for the popcorn.
No deal declared in July as some kind of triumph will be met largely with "so what" followed by anger when people realise the privations the government are now imposing on them. Already seen the start of that with the Mail reporting of US food demands. "Not the Brexit we voted for". Remember - people didn't vote for a destination after we left the EU - that is a political decision of the govenment. If they fuck it up the blame won't be put on the average Brexit voter, it'll be on the government for screwing up after we left.
"Not the Brexit we voted for". It'd better be good than what we had before...
We have not left as you well know. And many want another 2 years in transition
July may will see the ultimate dead cat bounce as Boris walks out and the implications to the UK and Europe will be profound
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this?
I wonder if there is more working class emigration to (and therefore contact with) Aus/NZ/USA?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.
So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.
Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.
Oh yes I do.
72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that
"Among Wealthy Nations U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
You just cherry picked one poll too based on very important, not just important.
As I said Poland, Greece, Portugal and Italy overall have more saying religion is important to them than the USA
Good that you admit to cherry-picking as usual, at least it's a start.
There is tons more info out there if you are interested in reality, rather than just desperately trying to pretend to be right all the time.
I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
I don’t know if you’re married...
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
If Cummings had confessed to that, and apologised sincerely, he might have got some sympathy.
Instead he arrogantly came out with a cock and bull story because he thinks everyone else is stupid. He seems to be right on that about the cabinet of course.
He has ensured every member of the cabinet is his intellectual inferior.
As a result, there are cabbages out there lamenting that they are too bright to serve in government.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.
You've seen no zombie movies then.
Taking care of a group can be entirely the right thing to do for selfish reasons. People interpret selfish as a bad thing, it isn't.
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?
They have watched enough Neighbours and Home and Away even if they have not been there
So East Enders and Coronation Street reflect the reality of UK life then?
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.
So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.
Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.
Oh yes I do.
72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that
"Among Wealthy Nations U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
You just cherry picked one poll too based on very important, not just important.
As I said Poland, Greece, Portugal and Italy overall have more saying religion is important to them than the USA
Good that you admit to cherry-picking as usual, at least it's a start.
There is tons more info out there if you are interested in reality, rather than just desperately trying to pretend to be right all the time.
I assume you don't know Italy well at all.
I was absolutely right.
There may be more very religious people in the USA but there are also more secular people in the USA than in Italy, Poland, Greece or Portugal.
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this?
I wonder if there is more working class emigration to (and therefore contact with) Aus/NZ/USA?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?
You may be right, and HYUFD may be right too - just looked it up and Australia is by far the most popular place to emigrate:
As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
Its prima facie. Even the majority of Tory voters can see that. The court of public opinion has sat and looked at the evidence and looked at his various testimonies written and spoken and judged him to be lying through his teeth.
Those of you insisting he remains innocent - how long will you keep this up? I hope for a long long time - his presence in the government is a marvellous boost to the Labour Party.
Even a majority thinking someone is guilty doesn't make them guilty. People are innocent until proven guilty that is a fundamental part of law. If you want to allege someone is guilty then the word to use is allegedly.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That applies to all alleged criminal cases.
“Alleged criminal cases” - do we have to express doubt as to the existence of actual litigation itself now? “The barrister allegedly went to court, allegedly to defend his client”
If the BBC wanted to make serious factual claim they would say "He broke the law". Breaking rules is much weaker, as 'rules' is used to cover all manner of non-binding guidance, advice and instruction. When you breach social distance (almost everyone) you are 'breaking the rules' and not breaking the law. Any way it's a free shot because DC isn't going to sue and the BBC has its own legal department that we pay for.
Thanks for that Scott, but I daresay it will be lost on the Boris fanboys.
If they can't see a difference between Stephen Kinnock and his family walking half a mile to place a packaged birthday cake on Neil's doorstep then retreat 10 metres before Neil and Glenys emerge from the house, remaining 10 metres away at all times and the Cummings stunt the position is hopeless. On that basis an uptick in Covid bed occupancy in England will indicate to them that the government have done a fantastic job and the pandemic is over.
So all the other stats and studies showing deaths coming down hugely you ignore? For example
Yes it has been going down. The government did a fantastic job of managing the pandemic until they felt mitigating Cummings' indiscretions trumped staying on message.
You can trot out as many statistics as you want, anecdotal evidence from for example Weston Hospital who have said, sorry we have closed admissions because of a spike in Coronavirus should fill you with dread. Maybe the statistics will follow, maybe it is just a localised short term blip. I don't know, you don't know.
Cummings should stay, not least because he is the brains behind Boris. Both of them need to address their MPs and lay down the law to them. They then need to get a workable plan back on track. The last thing YOU want or need is a second lockdown.
It may just be me, but I'm not sure why folk on here continue to debate with Mr Thompson on whether or not Cummings broke the rules/laws. He is clearly not going to change his mind whatever arguments people put forward, so it seems rather pointless.
I enjoy reading the arguments here, but the volume of posting on this issue with Mr Thompson has made recent threads repetitive and a bit dull. Maybe he'd post a bit less if we left him alone?
To me, his comment on the virtue of selfishness sums it up anyway and I don't need to know any more.
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
It’s opponents of Brexit saying it’s done so they can undermine it in the background
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
No no, GET BREXIT DONE was the slogan for the election. Vote Tory and we will GET BREXIT DONE. No more delays beyond the end of January. And there were no more delays - we left. We're now in the transition having departed. Thats what punters were told endlessly by this government. Thats why people voted for this government. People didn't know or care how it actually worked other than it was bad. Its done.
As for WTO the Tories have a majority of 80 and have the mandate to do whatever they see fit. We've already had a warmup for what no deal will look like and people didn't like. Apparently many Brexiteer Tories insist GATT24 means we go WTO and can do what we like. Despite the outgoing head of the WTO pointing out this is bollocks and reaching for the popcorn.
No deal declared in July as some kind of triumph will be met largely with "so what" followed by anger when people realise the privations the government are now imposing on them. Already seen the start of that with the Mail reporting of US food demands. "Not the Brexit we voted for". Remember - people didn't vote for a destination after we left the EU - that is a political decision of the govenment. If they fuck it up the blame won't be put on the average Brexit voter, it'll be on the government for screwing up after we left.
"Not the Brexit we voted for". It'd better be good than what we had before...
63% of Tory voters do not want to extend the transition period, 68% of Leave voters do not want to extend the transition period.
'Come on lads' shouted the Head Lemming. 'Onward, onward' shrieked his followers. 'Er, isn't that a cliff' doubted one or two 'No, onwards, onwards' came the reply.
OT - A question for no deal Brexiteers - Will the govt offer a similar furlough scheme if there is no deal?
* I know they shouldnt do, but think large parts of the public will now expect one, and probably easy for the opposition to say they would have done.
Why should they?
The furlough scheme is due to a temporary interruption that the government has mandated that will be lifted before long.
Are you suggesting that No Deal, or any disruption from it, will be temporary?
That was the answer I expected and I agree with. There will be a public clamour for it regardless so we may end up with one.
However, the more interesting point that brings up is that it is completely illogical for the government to waste billions of pounds nursing thousands of businesses and jobs that rely on EU free trade through 2020 only to change the conditions so that they die in 2021 anyway.
Furlough should logically be withdrawn now from any sector that relies on EU trade deals. That will also let the EU we are serious about no deal.
Popular? No of course not, but then the reality of no deal Brexit wont be either, and within the decade new firms will grow and take their place.
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this?
I wonder if there is more working class emigration to (and therefore contact with) Aus/NZ/USA?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?
Quite likely, the upper middle class voted Remain and the working class voted Leave after all
They don't need Starmer in. They merely need Cummings/Johnson to not have sufficient political capital to burn on a very controversial fight over a national broadcaster that retains a lot of public support.
I largely agree (I was aiming for pithy and overshot). Not sure about the scale of public support bit though.
They also benefit from the fact the current BBC Charter runs to 2026, so the time this really comes into play is mid-term in the next Parliament.
If we can ban IC cars in 2035 then we can legislate now to reform the BBC in 2026.
Would Sir K. really expend his political capital reversing that?
There is a Royal Charter which applies until 2026. This isn't, in fact, like an Act of Parliament.
If you and I have a contract until 2026, and it's rather favourable to you, how would you respond if I said "shall we renegotiate this?" I suspect you'd say, "sure, Sir Norfolk, let's set up a meeting in 2025 to discuss that."
In a sense, nothing is impossible - there are ways to put pressure on, and Cummings/Johnson have shown a willingness to ignore the constitutional norms. But it does make it a hell of a lot more difficult than if Charter renewal was imminent - we're just not at that point in the cycle.
In real life if one party to a contract wants to renegotiate it gets done (assuming they’re both have clout)
I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
I don’t know if you’re married...
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
I think most people would be willing to forgive someone making a mistake on the spur of the moment if they are subsequently contrite about it. Nobody is perfect.
That isn't what has happened here. Cummings is not admitting to any doubt or regret about his actions. That's worse than the offence itself for two reasons.
One, the insult to those who sacrificed to follow the rules. Two because of the damage to the government strategy as they contort themselves to avoid doing anything that could be used to criticise Cummings.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.
You've seen no zombie movies then.
Taking care of a group can be entirely the right thing to do for selfish reasons. People interpret selfish as a bad thing, it isn't.
The virus is a selfish gene (or rather set of genes) in the classical Dawkinsian sense, self-propagating as best it can.
As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
Its prima facie. Even the majority of Tory voters can see that. The court of public opinion has sat and looked at the evidence and looked at his various testimonies written and spoken and judged him to be lying through his teeth.
Those of you insisting he remains innocent - how long will you keep this up? I hope for a long long time - his presence in the government is a marvellous boost to the Labour Party.
Even a majority thinking someone is guilty doesn't make them guilty. People are innocent until proven guilty that is a fundamental part of law. If you want to allege someone is guilty then the word to use is allegedly.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That applies to all alleged criminal cases.
This isn't a criminal case - the worst that Cummings and Wakefield would have had was a £30 Fixed Penalty Notice. Fundamentals of law are irrelevant in a political issue. He could have accepted that "I acted on instinct" was contrary to the instructions he helped write and shown contrition. The PM, the Cabinet could have chosen not to go into bat to defend what has quickly become indefensible.
Its not the legal transgression thats the scandal. Its the political transgression. Man drives where he shouldn't - so what, there's been plenty. "Man tells others not to drive, then does and lies about it" makes people think hypocrites. Most Tory voters have concluded he is lying. Not about the law.
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.
I grew up there. Best way to describe it is as a blend of Britain being like America while enjoying the sunshine.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.
So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.
Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.
Oh yes I do.
72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that
"Among Wealthy Nations U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
You just cherry picked one poll too based on very important, not just important.
As I said Poland, Greece, Portugal and Italy overall have more saying religion is important to them than the USA
HYUFD accusing someone of cherry-picking polls!!!!!!!!! He's the master cherry picker
This is no longer about Dominic Cummings. It is about Boris Johnson.
Indeed. The media have decided to make it a trial of strength do the government can’t afford to lose.
But unless there is new information why would the government backdown?
So the media will get bored and move on at some point.
In the meantime none of the important stuff, like the new lockdown rules, gets air time. But apparently it’s not the media’s fault for not writing about them.
The Daily Mail is pursuing an agenda to bring down the Tory government? Really?
The Daily Mail has had a particularly bad pandemic. They’ve been utterly irresponsible
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?
They have watched enough Neighbours and Home and Away even if they have not been there
So East Enders and Coronation Street reflect the reality of UK life then?
I think some Brexiters should move to Pimlico.
HYUFD is of course not a Brexiter so he would need his papers to be in order to visit them.
On the USA vs. Europe front; where are the Euro-Googles? the Facebooks, Teslas, Space-Xs etc.
The USA is doing something right, or we are doing something wrong.
SAP is a 100billion dollar plus software company. It's software is the backbone of multinationals all over the world.
It's software is so important that Intel and Amazon design machines specifically for running it's software.
The Web was invented by a Brit at CERN. He could have made billions, he gave it to the world for free.
Americans are more protectionist than we are. They are more likely to support their own industries and also to block their takeover by foreigners, where we welcome it. Americans invest more in research (as does China!). I have high hopes of UKARPA if Dominic Cummings ever gets it running (after a cathartic couple of months away from government!).
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
No no, GET BREXIT DONE was the slogan for the election. Vote Tory and we will GET BREXIT DONE. No more delays beyond the end of January. And there were no more delays - we left. We're now in the transition having departed. Thats what punters were told endlessly by this government. Thats why people voted for this government. People didn't know or care how it actually worked other than it was bad. Its done.
As for WTO the Tories have a majority of 80 and have the mandate to do whatever they see fit. We've already had a warmup for what no deal will look like and people didn't like. Apparently many Brexiteer Tories insist GATT24 means we go WTO and can do what we like. Despite the outgoing head of the WTO pointing out this is bollocks and reaching for the popcorn.
No deal declared in July as some kind of triumph will be met largely with "so what" followed by anger when people realise the privations the government are now imposing on them. Already seen the start of that with the Mail reporting of US food demands. "Not the Brexit we voted for". Remember - people didn't vote for a destination after we left the EU - that is a political decision of the govenment. If they fuck it up the blame won't be put on the average Brexit voter, it'll be on the government for screwing up after we left.
"Not the Brexit we voted for". It'd better be good than what we had before...
We have not left as you well know. And many want another 2 years in transition
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.
So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.
Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.
Oh yes I do.
72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that
"Among Wealthy Nations U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
You just cherry picked one poll too based on very important, not just important.
As I said Poland, Greece, Portugal and Italy overall have more saying religion is important to them than the USA
HYUFD accusing someone of cherry-picking polls!!!!!!!!! He's the master cherry picker
Excellent news, we need a lot more of them this summer.
Comments
But, even given that, you can't want the entire England lockdown policy to be ended simply in order to save the job of a single senior aide.
No wonder we haven't seen Vallance and Whitty for days.
All it takes is a single announcement.
And without it this entire next phase of the disease won't be track and trace, it will be hunker down as the Government has failed.
Really?
.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2002/12/19/among-wealthy-nations/
"Among Wealthy Nations
U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1265548509475942406
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
* I know they shouldnt do, but think large parts of the public will now expect one, and probably easy for the opposition to say they would have done.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That applies to all alleged criminal cases.
He’s just recovering from a near death experience. It’s increasingly looking like this is going to be extended and if it doesn’t improve soon - say in the next couple of months - then I think he should step down. (Although I’d hope there would be a quick replacement selected given the need to plan for a second wave).
But your tone is perjorative and lacks the sympathy expected of someone who should understand better
If they can't see a difference between Stephen Kinnock and his family walking half a mile to place a packaged birthday cake on Neil's doorstep then retreat 10 metres before Neil and Glenys emerge from the house, remaining 10 metres away at all times and the Cummings stunt the position is hopeless. On that basis an uptick in Covid bed occupancy in England will indicate to them that the government have done a fantastic job and the pandemic is over.
This anonymity can feel quite uncomfortable, and it's easy to be wistful about the idea of a stronger community. My wife, talking about her experience of growing up in a village, disabused me of these romantic notions. It's a lot more complicated.
Yes, there are obvious plus points. It can also be stifling and intolerant of difference and there's a real value to the freedom of not being watched and judged for being yourself.
It would be simplistic to say that the challenge is to find the best of both worlds, a happy medium. There are real trade-offs involved that can't be so easily brushed off. I don't think you can simply take an average
He has been very reserved.
But then, why does he need to say anything when the government are busy trashing themselves and transparently lying all over the place?
Ladbrokes: 6/4 go, 1/2 stay
PP/Betfair: 6/4 go, 1/2 stay
Starsports: 15/8 go, 4/11 stay
As for WTO the Tories have a majority of 80 and have the mandate to do whatever they see fit. We've already had a warmup for what no deal will look like and people didn't like. Apparently many Brexiteer Tories insist GATT24 means we go WTO and can do what we like. Despite the outgoing head of the WTO pointing out this is bollocks and reaching for the popcorn.
No deal declared in July as some kind of triumph will be met largely with "so what" followed by anger when people realise the privations the government are now imposing on them. Already seen the start of that with the Mail reporting of US food demands. "Not the Brexit we voted for". Remember - people didn't vote for a destination after we left the EU - that is a political decision of the govenment. If they fuck it up the blame won't be put on the average Brexit voter, it'll be on the government for screwing up after we left.
"Not the Brexit we voted for". It'd better be good than what we had before...
That doesn't apply to the BBC. Who is the BBC's client? The BBC always uses the word allegedly normally ... I dare you to find any other case where a BBC journalist pronounces someone guilty of a pending Police investigation without using the word allegedly. Any at all would do.
Also this isn't about the linguistic stylings of Mr Borough but Maitlis on Newsnight.
As I said Poland, Greece, Portugal and Italy overall have more saying religion is important to them than the USA
The early May Bank Holiday contributed to both the decrease in the number of deaths registered in Week 19 and the increase in the number of deaths registered in Week 20, as deaths were unlikely to be registered on Friday 8 May. Next week’s report will allow a better assessment of recent trends in the number of all-cause deaths and deaths related to COVID.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending15may2020
Brexit 1 - the Groans of the Britons - when Europe refused to assist the inhabitants of this island
Brexit 2 - Henry VIII - when the Europeans tried to interfere in British social policy
Brexit 3 - today - when the Europeans tried to tell the British what to do
If he wants to be Prime Minister he gets to be criticised like a normal person would for being bad at being Prime Minister.
The USA is doing something right, or we are doing something wrong.
https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1265272126531088384/photo/1
They know what they want, not you
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1261323480903147521?s=20
And every week the data in the shaded zone they are pointing at is revised upwards.
Every. Single. Week.
Or judges. Should we mention the famous case of Lord Browne, where he was allegedly being judged by David Eady, but was told he’d been a silly boy and allowed to go free after admitting perjury, and effectively conceded fraud and embezzlement?
It’s clearly now a witch hunt, and the mob are really angry that they didn’t get him.
There’s way more important things in life that need doing today, like working on getting my small business back up and running after two months of almost no income.
Read The Selfish Gene by Dawkins.
It's software is so important that Intel and Amazon design machines specifically for running it's software.
Instead he arrogantly came out with a cock and bull story because he thinks everyone else is stupid. He seems to be right on that about the cabinet of course.
The government is now working on making a reality of Global Britain. Lots of political argument on that one, including on the agriculture bill and the government's competence in reaching a great trade deal with the EU..
July may will see the ultimate dead cat bounce as Boris walks out and the implications to the UK and Europe will be profound
The furlough scheme is due to a temporary interruption that the government has mandated that will be lifted before long.
Are you suggesting that No Deal, or any disruption from it, will be temporary?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?
There is tons more info out there if you are interested in reality, rather than just desperately trying to pretend to be right all the time.
I assume you don't know Italy well at all.
As a result, there are cabbages out there lamenting that they are too bright to serve in government.
There may be more very religious people in the USA but there are also more secular people in the USA than in Italy, Poland, Greece or Portugal.
Nothing you posted refuted my claim at all
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/holidays/article-3033680/The-destinations-Britons-emigrating-revealed-Spain-number-three.html
I live and learn!
You can trot out as many statistics as you want, anecdotal evidence from for example Weston Hospital who have said, sorry we have closed admissions because of a spike in Coronavirus should fill you with dread. Maybe the statistics will follow, maybe it is just a localised short term blip. I don't know, you don't know.
Cummings should stay, not least because he is the brains behind Boris. Both of them need to address their MPs and lay down the law to them. They then need to get a workable plan back on track. The last thing YOU want or need is a second lockdown.
I enjoy reading the arguments here, but the volume of posting on this issue with Mr Thompson has made recent threads repetitive and a bit dull. Maybe he'd post a bit less if we left him alone?
To me, his comment on the virtue of selfishness sums it up anyway and I don't need to know any more.
'Er, isn't that a cliff' doubted one or two
'No, onwards, onwards' came the reply.
However, the more interesting point that brings up is that it is completely illogical for the government to waste billions of pounds nursing thousands of businesses and jobs that rely on EU free trade through 2020 only to change the conditions so that they die in 2021 anyway.
Furlough should logically be withdrawn now from any sector that relies on EU trade deals. That will also let the EU we are serious about no deal.
Popular? No of course not, but then the reality of no deal Brexit wont be either, and within the decade new firms will grow and take their place.
Why will they change their mind?
That isn't what has happened here. Cummings is not admitting to any doubt or regret about his actions. That's worse than the offence itself for two reasons.
One, the insult to those who sacrificed to follow the rules. Two because of the damage to the government strategy as they contort themselves to avoid doing anything that could be used to criticise Cummings.
So it is a good thing, is it?
Its not the legal transgression thats the scandal. Its the political transgression. Man drives where he shouldn't - so what, there's been plenty. "Man tells others not to drive, then does and lies about it" makes people think hypocrites. Most Tory voters have concluded he is lying. Not about the law.
Telegraph
HYUFD is of course not a Brexiter so he would need his papers to be in order to visit them.
He is growing on me.
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1265555908584751105?s=09
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en "The UK withdrew from the EU"
We have left. Politically and legally. As formally recognised by both the UK and the EU. Do keep up.
https://www.britishsummerfruits.co.uk/jobs
But FWIW (n=1) I’d be well aligned with the output from that focus group