Germany is blaming cramped living conditions for abbatoir workers. We must hope it is not that the virus has spread to farm animals and then back to workers via aerosols from sawing carcasses.
I'm sure we're amazed that the exploitation of migrants features in this story:
Two Romanian former employees of a Bavarian slaughterhouse told the Guardian they were “not at all” surprised at the outbreaks.
“There were houses where you could find even 20 people,” said *Alex. “It takes one asymptomatic person in one house to spread the virus to everyone else. You could not isolate alone in a packed house.”
Bohl said the subcontractors often made extra money by renting out cheap buildings – such as former army barracks or office spaces – to a large number of workers.
Former slaughterhouse worker *Lucas said that during his employment with a subcontractor there were sometimes as many as five people to a room and conditions were “terrible”. “In the first house we had cockroaches and mice and in the second house the room was full of mould and we had no heat – in November – until they brought an electric heater.”
Remind me again about the EU and its 'level playing fields'.
The meat industry is a hell hole everywhere. Not entirely surprising that an industry that is centred on industrial scale killing should also treat humans so badly too. Been a vegetarian for 32 years and never regretted it.
Hitler was a vegetarian, it does not guarantee morality.
There are also plenty of excellent organic farms producing meat
*“HITLER WAS A VEGETARIAN” KLAXON!*
I belive Stalin rather liked a good steak, and Mao was fond of suckling pig...
There are accounts from Yalta of the huge feasts laid on by Stalin, served by emaciated Russian waiters.
The only difference between us and them is we still have a press to report it.
And it, and the comments under it, demonstrate the size of the government’s problem. People are genuinely seething.
Disclosure: I have visited my mum a couple of times, maintaining social distancing at all times. Neither of us were symptomatic and we waited until I had not been in London for weeks before I first saw her. I absolutely do not regret our choices.
The mistake of assuming that twitter = the general public.
It's a very small cross section of mostly anti-Tory, pro-remain, highly politically engaged people who are clearly not Dom's natural constituency.
While my friends skew youngish (20s,30s,40s) and very middle class, I would say that every one of them has broken lockdown by this point.
That's why this is a non-story. About half the country have either broken lockdown themselves or can't wait for it to be over.
It's a small vocal minority that are pushing for Dom's scalp, because he's a Tory and he was the architect of the leave campaign.
This has nothing to do with lockdown. That's just their latest excuse.
Precisely. A quick scan of the Twitter bios under Rupert Myers' shows that they consist of an FBPE lawyer, a lefty journalist, a lefty economist, and a semi-professional anti-Brexiteer, and so on.
They would want Cummings sacked if he rolled over in bed.
Sincerely, I think he should be given some latitude on his workload given his health. There are other sticks to attack him with.
I have said for some time that Boris is not well and his reputation for going into hibernation is not helping. Cummings should go or be sacked but this is a bank holiday weekend and parliament is in recess so they may just ride it out.
To me this is poor and is adding to the sense of drift at the top but maybe the comfort zone of an 80 seat majority gives them an arrogance that would not normally be there
I have not been contributing much to PB recently as the same polarised arguments are on repeat and it does good just to step away from the keyboard and do something else
This conservative is not content with the leadership, not because they cannot lead, but that they seem to have lost impetus and ambition.
I hope Boris rediscovers his energy and profile soon otherwise maybe time to go on paternity leave
Id forgotten about the paternity, another reason why attacking his workload feels wrong when there are so many other faults.
Perhaps number 10 should have a quiet word with the Coronavirus ask it to lay off for a few weeks until the government is ready to face it again.
If Boris needs a break, he should take it. Frankly Raab was better.
Im not saying dont attack the government or the PM at all. I do both myself.
I am saying attacking a man who has recently been in intensive care and delayed taking his paternity leave for not being able to commit as many hours to the job as normal is a very cheap shot.
Quite right, and its not as if he does anything useful on his rare appearances in any case.
It is his track record of evading scrutiny, hiding in fridges, not a single appearance before the Commons liason Committee etc that makes the #Where'sBoris stick.
The Cummings story fuels a "One rule for them, another for us" theme that so easily goes around when it comes to politicians. I've heard the exact phrase already this morning from someone not usually focused on politics, so it's cutting through.
Either he leaves or he becomes an albatross around Johnson's neck. The pandemic is the defining story of the year at the very least, and this will always be associated with it if he stays.
And it, and the comments under it, demonstrate the size of the government’s problem. People are genuinely seething.
Disclosure: I have visited my mum a couple of times, maintaining social distancing at all times. Neither of us were symptomatic and we waited until I had not been in London for weeks before I first saw her. I absolutely do not regret our choices.
The mistake of assuming that twitter = the general public.
It's a very small cross section of mostly anti-Tory, pro-remain, highly politically engaged people who are clearly not Dom's natural constituency.
While my friends skew youngish (20s,30s,40s) and very middle class, I would say that every one of them has broken lockdown by this point.
That's why this is a non-story. About half the country have either broken lockdown themselves or can't wait for it to be over.
It's a small vocal minority that are pushing for Dom's scalp, because he's a Tory and he was the architect of the leave campaign.
This has nothing to do with lockdown. That's just their latest excuse.
Dom didn't break lockdown, he broke quarantine.
Lockdown is for the well, quarantine is for the sick.
Did he have a test that proved positive for coronavirus beforehand? Because unless he did, he broke fuck all not quarantine.
And it, and the comments under it, demonstrate the size of the government’s problem. People are genuinely seething.
Disclosure: I have visited my mum a couple of times, maintaining social distancing at all times. Neither of us were symptomatic and we waited until I had not been in London for weeks before I first saw her. I absolutely do not regret our choices.
The mistake of assuming that twitter = the general public.
It's a very small cross section of mostly anti-Tory, pro-remain, highly politically engaged people who are clearly not Dom's natural constituency.
While my friends skew youngish (20s,30s,40s) and very middle class, I would say that every one of them has broken lockdown by this point.
That's why this is a non-story. About half the country have either broken lockdown themselves or can't wait for it to be over.
It's a small vocal minority that are pushing for Dom's scalp, because he's a Tory and he was the architect of the leave campaign.
This has nothing to do with lockdown. That's just their latest excuse.
One imagines it is the people who "can't wait for it to be over" who are most outraged when the very architects of lockdown do not follow the rules they foisted on the rest of us. It's not Brexit. It really is about lockdown, or lockdown and hypocrisy. Ask Professor Ferguson or Dr Calderwood, the Scottish CMO.
What @HYUFD doesn’t get is that to most normal leavers, rather than internet frothers, Brexit is already done. They won, and now they have moved onto other things.
And it, and the comments under it, demonstrate the size of the government’s problem. People are genuinely seething.
Disclosure: I have visited my mum a couple of times, maintaining social distancing at all times. Neither of us were symptomatic and we waited until I had not been in London for weeks before I first saw her. I absolutely do not regret our choices.
The mistake of assuming that twitter = the general public.
It's a very small cross section of mostly anti-Tory, pro-remain, highly politically engaged people who are clearly not Dom's natural constituency.
While my friends skew youngish (20s,30s,40s) and very middle class, I would say that every one of them has broken lockdown by this point.
That's why this is a non-story. About half the country have either broken lockdown themselves or can't wait for it to be over.
It's a small vocal minority that are pushing for Dom's scalp, because he's a Tory and he was the architect of the leave campaign.
This has nothing to do with lockdown. That's just their latest excuse.
Dom didn't break lockdown, he broke quarantine.
Lockdown is for the well, quarantine is for the sick.
Did he have a test that proved positive for coronavirus beforehand? Because unless he did, he broke fuck all not quarantine.
Irrelevant (and of course testing capacity was an issue then).
Quarantine applies to people with symptoms, and the rest of the household. It has never required a positive test.
Indeed enforcing strict quarantine is an essential part of relaxing lockdown.
If Cummings goes do we then get a Boris who is allowed to finally see sense and extended the transition?
Regardless of Cummings, there is IMO virtually no chance of a WTO Brexit. I predict an extension - perhaps dressed up as a "deal" for political cover.
Nah. The pantomime negotiations are just for a domestic show. The whole cabinet was appointed because they were willing to go to No Deal Brexit. Indeed most are enthusiastic for it.
The No Deal Brexiteers were never the sharpest tools in the box and now these lightweights are are running the country. Heaven help us.
So did he have coronavirus? It sounds like he didnt from that? Did either of them?
The government has been trapped by its own horrible policies. Things that used to be private, like where a person travelled, who he or she saw and the medical history he or she had, are now public.
People have been stripped of their dignity, their liberty and their privacy, and it serves the government right if it is trapped by its own dreadful measures.
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
And it, and the comments under it, demonstrate the size of the government’s problem. People are genuinely seething.
Disclosure: I have visited my mum a couple of times, maintaining social distancing at all times. Neither of us were symptomatic and we waited until I had not been in London for weeks before I first saw her. I absolutely do not regret our choices.
The mistake of assuming that twitter = the general public.
It's a very small cross section of mostly anti-Tory, pro-remain, highly politically engaged people who are clearly not Dom's natural constituency.
While my friends skew youngish (20s,30s,40s) and very middle class, I would say that every one of them has broken lockdown by this point.
That's why this is a non-story. About half the country have either broken lockdown themselves or can't wait for it to be over.
It's a small vocal minority that are pushing for Dom's scalp, because he's a Tory and he was the architect of the leave campaign.
This has nothing to do with lockdown. That's just their latest excuse.
Dom didn't break lockdown, he broke quarantine.
Lockdown is for the well, quarantine is for the sick.
Did he have a test that proved positive for coronavirus beforehand? Because unless he did, he broke fuck all not quarantine.
I’m pretty sure the guidance is that if you have coronavirus symptoms you are supposed to stay at home, regardless of whether you have a positive test.
You really will defend the indefensible in the name of your culture war. You’re just as bad as the “FBPE remainer frothers” you deride so much.
'Stay Home' was a terrible slogan. It induced paranoia and, from that, we now have a massive agoraphobic and haphephobic problem in this country.
I agree.
"Get Fit" would have been much better.
That's the one thing that people can do to reduce their likelihood of dying from coronavirus, and be much less likely to suffer from a whole lot of other diseases as well.
There was an interesting exchange yesterday where I asked a couple of fairly young PBers why they were worried about the risks of Covid-19, when the risks to them are absolutely tiny.
They replied to the effect of that although they accepted their risks of dying were low, they thought their risks of hospitalisation were higher (implied moderate).
Yet those risks are not moderate. They are also extremely low. The overwhelming majority of fit, healthy under 60s have no, few or mild symptoms, even in the unlikely event they catch it in the first place.
Physical fitness is the key to this thing. Yet we have created a situation where people are terrified despite being at very low risk, as @Mysticrose says.
@Black_Rook made the seemingly outrageous claim that more people have already died from falling down the stairs this year than fit and healthy under 40s from Covid-19. I have no idea if that’s true, but I suppose it might be.
It’s likely. Roughly 700 people a year die falling down the stairs. (Roughly 250,000 need to go to A&E each year as a result of such a fall.)
My number one health tip is: use the handrail. I’ve seen the aftermath of a fall of just three steps and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
“Roughly 250,000 need to go to A&E each year as a result of such a fall”
That is an astounding figure. Goodness me.
The interesting thing to me in that is how much higher it is than workplace accidents, compared to the time spent in each place.
Total deaths in "falls from height" in UK in 2018-19 was 40.
Also how well incremental improvement in H&S in the home and medical care works - the number of stair related deaths was 1000+ in 2000.
If Cummings goes do we then get a Boris who is allowed to finally see sense and extended the transition?
Regardless of Cummings, there is IMO virtually no chance of a WTO Brexit. I predict an extension - perhaps dressed up as a "deal" for political cover.
For a year maybe but the transition period will have to have been ended by the next general election or Leavers will start to defect back from the Tories to Farage and the Brexit Party again
Please see my predicted "PHASED DIVERGENCE" Deal.
An extension without an extension.
Not possible, the EU have basically said the UK must stay in the single market in all but name for a FTA
Which is where we eventually end up. Close alignment. That is the outcome of Phase Two. But Phase One comes first. The end of FM plus some odds and ends. Phase One starts 1 Jan 2021 as does the negotiation phase for Phase Two. Target date for implementing Phase Two, 1 Jan 2022.
A key difference between the risks of dying from falling down the stairs and from Covid-19 is that falling down the stairs isn't contagious, while Covid-19 is highly infectious and deadly. Both risks should be managed but they are different.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
I think that the difference with Calderwood and Ferguson is that they were very much the public faces of the policies that they breached. Cummings may well have been influential behind the scenes but the charge of hypocrisy does not really stick. He has not been lecturing us about the importance of these rules.
This strikes me as a summer storm, sharp but brief. If Boris wants to weather it he could. If he chooses not to then Cummings goes. Either resolution is not great for Boris. Cummings is a useful lightning rod and also a source of ideas in a government somewhat short of them. OTOH the irrational hatred of Cummings as the one who delivered Brexit suggests that this would not be forgotten easily and a clearly still below par Boris might think he doesn't need this.
My guess, unless there is something additional, is that he stays. Which is probably a good thing for the government with a frightening amount on its plate.
And it, and the comments under it, demonstrate the size of the government’s problem. People are genuinely seething.
Disclosure: I have visited my mum a couple of times, maintaining social distancing at all times. Neither of us were symptomatic and we waited until I had not been in London for weeks before I first saw her. I absolutely do not regret our choices.
The mistake of assuming that twitter = the general public.
It's a very small cross section of mostly anti-Tory, pro-remain, highly politically engaged people who are clearly not Dom's natural constituency.
While my friends skew youngish (20s,30s,40s) and very middle class, I would say that every one of them has broken lockdown by this point.
That's why this is a non-story. About half the country have either broken lockdown themselves or can't wait for it to be over.
It's a small vocal minority that are pushing for Dom's scalp, because he's a Tory and he was the architect of the leave campaign.
This has nothing to do with lockdown. That's just their latest excuse.
Dom didn't break lockdown, he broke quarantine.
Lockdown is for the well, quarantine is for the sick.
Did he have a test that proved positive for coronavirus beforehand? Because unless he did, he broke fuck all not quarantine.
I’m pretty sure the guidance is that if you have coronavirus symptoms you are supposed to stay at home, regardless of whether you have a positive test.
You really will defend the indefensible in the name of your culture war. You’re just as bad as the “FBPE remainer frothers” you deride so much.
You're meant to be a lawyer, aren't you? Good luck proving in a court of law that he specifically had coronavirus - or even its symptoms - before he travelled.
What @HYUFD doesn’t get is that to most normal leavers, rather than internet frothers, Brexit is already done. They won, and now they have moved onto other things.
Wrong, 68% of Leave voters and 63% of Tory voters oppose extending the transition period
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family 350 miles across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family halfway across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
There is no suggestion at all that Cummings, his sister , his wife or his children came into contact with the elderly grandparents.
And it, and the comments under it, demonstrate the size of the government’s problem. People are genuinely seething.
Disclosure: I have visited my mum a couple of times, maintaining social distancing at all times. Neither of us were symptomatic and we waited until I had not been in London for weeks before I first saw her. I absolutely do not regret our choices.
The mistake of assuming that twitter = the general public.
It's a very small cross section of mostly anti-Tory, pro-remain, highly politically engaged people who are clearly not Dom's natural constituency.
While my friends skew youngish (20s,30s,40s) and very middle class, I would say that every one of them has broken lockdown by this point.
That's why this is a non-story. About half the country have either broken lockdown themselves or can't wait for it to be over.
It's a small vocal minority that are pushing for Dom's scalp, because he's a Tory and he was the architect of the leave campaign.
This has nothing to do with lockdown. That's just their latest excuse.
Dom didn't break lockdown, he broke quarantine.
Lockdown is for the well, quarantine is for the sick.
Did he have a test that proved positive for coronavirus beforehand? Because unless he did, he broke fuck all not quarantine.
I’m pretty sure the guidance is that if you have coronavirus symptoms you are supposed to stay at home, regardless of whether you have a positive test.
You really will defend the indefensible in the name of your culture war. You’re just as bad as the “FBPE remainer frothers” you deride so much.
You're meant to be a lawyer, aren't you? Good luck proving in a court of law that he specifically had coronavirus - or even its symptoms - before he travelled.
Well on the 30th March No.10 confirmed Dom Cummings had coronavirus symptoms and it was on the 31st March Durham PoPo have said they had reports of an individual who had made their way from London...
'Stay Home' was a terrible slogan. It induced paranoia and, from that, we now have a massive agoraphobic and haphephobic problem in this country.
I agree.
"Get Fit" would have been much better.
That's the one thing that people can do to reduce their likelihood of dying from coronavirus, and be much less likely to suffer from a whole lot of other diseases as well.
There was an interesting exchange yesterday where I asked a couple of fairly young PBers why they were worried about the risks of Covid-19, when the risks to them are absolutely tiny.
They replied to the effect of that although they accepted their risks of dying were low, they thought their risks of hospitalisation were higher (implied moderate).
Yet those risks are not moderate. They are also extremely low. The overwhelming majority of fit, healthy under 60s have no, few or mild symptoms, even in the unlikely event they catch it in the first place.
Physical fitness is the key to this thing. Yet we have created a situation where people are terrified despite being at very low risk, as @Mysticrose says.
@Black_Rook made the seemingly outrageous claim that more people have already died from falling down the stairs this year than fit and healthy under 40s from Covid-19. I have no idea if that’s true, but I suppose it might be.
It’s likely. Roughly 700 people a year die falling down the stairs. (Roughly 250,000 need to go to A&E each year as a result of such a fall.)
My number one health tip is: use the handrail. I’ve seen the aftermath of a fall of just three steps and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
“Roughly 250,000 need to go to A&E each year as a result of such a fall”
That is an astounding figure. Goodness me.
As I said last week in my thread header, we assess risks by salience not likelihood.
Given the way my hose I built (the bathroom is downstairs and the stairs are pretty steep) I’m probably at some risk of that fate myself, particularly if there is a cat on the stairs that I don’t notice at three in the morning.
I got a feeling there's a miracle due Gonna come true, Cummings to leave Could it be? Yes it could. Something's Cumming, something good If I can wait Something's Cumming
Maybe tonight Maybe tonight Maybe tonight
Cumm as you R, as you were As I want Covid-19 As a friend, as a friend As an known enemy Take back control, stay at home The cough is yours, stay alert Take a rest as a friend As an old Memoria, memoria Memoria, memoria
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family halfway across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
There is no suggestion at all that Cummings, his sister , his wife or his children came into contact with the elderly grandparents.
That bit is completely made up, it seems.
According to who? The person whose story has changed several times in the last 24 hours and completely contradicts what his wife wrote, and what the public has been told for the last six weeks.
A key difference between the risks of dying from falling down the stairs and from Covid-19 is that falling down the stairs isn't contagious, while Covid-19 is highly infectious and deadly. Both risks should be managed but they are different.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
But if he and the child self isolated and his sister brought their food to the door, not entering, how did anyone get infected or even exposed?
Surely "at home" does mean your own home? If I were visiting my parents and someone asked me where I was I wouldn't say "I'm at home." So the government lied.
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family halfway across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
There is no suggestion at all that Cummings, his sister , his wife or his children came into contact with the elderly grandparents.
That bit is completely made up, it seems.
According to who? The person whose story has changed several times in the last 24 hours and completely contradicts what his wife wrote, and what the public has been told for the last six weeks.
Again that's wrong. The government has only given one official account of Cummings conduct, just now.
Everything else comes from a press that hates his guts.
A key difference between the risks of dying from falling down the stairs and from Covid-19 is that falling down the stairs isn't contagious, while Covid-19 is highly infectious and deadly. Both risks should be managed but they are different.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
But if he and the child self isolated and his sister brought their food to the door, not entering, how did anyone get infected or even exposed?
If wor Dom was a normal person, I would be totally fine with what he did on a moral level. I wouldn’t give two sh*ts. He’s not a normal person though, he works for the Government, who specifically implemented policies designed to STOP people doing this. This is a classic case of one rule for the plebs and another rule for the ruling class.
A key difference between the risks of dying from falling down the stairs and from Covid-19 is that falling down the stairs isn't contagious, while Covid-19 is highly infectious and deadly. Both risks should be managed but they are different.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
But if he and the child self isolated and his sister brought their food to the door, not entering, how did anyone get infected or even exposed?
If! Who is going to take their word for it when either they lied now or they lied in the past? When did you lie Mr & Mrs Cummings is the question?
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family 350 miles across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
They're saying they didn't stay with grandparents.
Voters relationships have improved but they have gained weight.
The government gets positive marks for reducing the spread and preventing the NHS being overwhelmed but negative marks for providing enough PPE and testing and on care homes.
Sunak, Raab, Boris and Hancock all get net positive marks but Hunt, Gove and Patel net negatives.
53% think the Government is reopening too fast, 30% about the right time, 11% too slowly
And it, and the comments under it, demonstrate the size of the government’s problem. People are genuinely seething.
Disclosure: I have visited my mum a couple of times, maintaining social distancing at all times. Neither of us were symptomatic and we waited until I had not been in London for weeks before I first saw her. I absolutely do not regret our choices.
The mistake of assuming that twitter = the general public.
It's a very small cross section of mostly anti-Tory, pro-remain, highly politically engaged people who are clearly not Dom's natural constituency.
While my friends skew youngish (20s,30s,40s) and very middle class, I would say that every one of them has broken lockdown by this point.
That's why this is a non-story. About half the country have either broken lockdown themselves or can't wait for it to be over.
It's a small vocal minority that are pushing for Dom's scalp, because he's a Tory and he was the architect of the leave campaign.
This has nothing to do with lockdown. That's just their latest excuse.
Dom didn't break lockdown, he broke quarantine.
Lockdown is for the well, quarantine is for the sick.
Did he have a test that proved positive for coronavirus beforehand? Because unless he did, he broke fuck all not quarantine.
Hardly anyone was having tests in March so the regulations rely on the display of symptoms. On 30 March (a Monday) it was reported he had Coronavirus symptoms having developed them over the weekend. At the time the government required those showing symptoms was to self isolate aka quarantine .
Sincerely, I think he should be given some latitude on his workload given his health. There are other sticks to attack him with.
I have said for some time that Boris is not well and his reputation for going into hibernation is not helping. Cummings should go or be sacked but this is a bank holiday weekend and parliament is in recess so they may just ride it out.
To me this is poor and is adding to the sense of drift at the top but maybe the comfort zone of an 80 seat majority gives them an arrogance that would not normally be there
I have not been contributing much to PB recently as the same polarised arguments are on repeat and it does good just to step away from the keyboard and do something else
This conservative is not content with the leadership, not because they cannot lead, but that they seem to have lost impetus and ambition.
I hope Boris rediscovers his energy and profile soon otherwise maybe time to go on paternity leave
Id forgotten about the paternity, another reason why attacking his workload feels wrong when there are so many other faults.
Perhaps number 10 should have a quiet word with the Coronavirus ask it to lay off for a few weeks until the government is ready to face it again.
If Boris needs a break, he should take it. Frankly Raab was better.
Im not saying dont attack the government or the PM at all. I do both myself.
I am saying attacking a man who has recently been in intensive care and delayed taking his paternity leave for not being able to commit as many hours to the job as normal is a very cheap shot.
garbage he has been on almost permanent paternity / sick leave / holidays , be lucky if he has done a weeks work since election. Lazy useless slob, at least May turned up for work.
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family 350 miles across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
They're saying they didn't stay with grandparents.
They said they both had coronavirus in London as well. They lie. Why believe their latest statement?
A key difference between the risks of dying from falling down the stairs and from Covid-19 is that falling down the stairs isn't contagious, while Covid-19 is highly infectious and deadly. Both risks should be managed but they are different.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
But if he and the child self isolated and his sister brought their food to the door, not entering, how did anyone get infected or even exposed?
If wor Dom was a normal person, I would be totally fine with what he did on a moral level. I wouldn’t give two sh*ts. He’s not a normal person though, he works for the Government, who specifically implemented policies designed to STOP people doing this. This is a classic case of one rule for the plebs and another rule for the ruling class.
That's undeniably true. But is working for the government, as opposed to being Professor Lockdown, enough?
A key difference between the risks of dying from falling down the stairs and from Covid-19 is that falling down the stairs isn't contagious, while Covid-19 is highly infectious and deadly. Both risks should be managed but they are different.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
But if he and the child self isolated and his sister brought their food to the door, not entering, how did anyone get infected or even exposed?
If wor Dom was a normal person, I would be totally fine with what he did on a moral level. I wouldn’t give two sh*ts. He’s not a normal person though, he works for the Government, who specifically implemented policies designed to STOP people doing this. This is a classic case of one rule for the plebs and another rule for the ruling class.
If its fine for normal people its fine for others too.
Interesting the flat contradiction of the Guardian/Mirror "Durham Police sources" - someone is telling porkies....
But the news story never said the police spoke to them.
Police spoke to Dominic Cummings about breaching the government’s lockdown rules after he was seen in Durham, 264 miles from his London home, despite having had symptoms of coronavirus, the Guardian can reveal.
A key difference between the risks of dying from falling down the stairs and from Covid-19 is that falling down the stairs isn't contagious, while Covid-19 is highly infectious and deadly. Both risks should be managed but they are different.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
But if he and the child self isolated and his sister brought their food to the door, not entering, how did anyone get infected or even exposed?
If wor Dom was a normal person, I would be totally fine with what he did on a moral level. I wouldn’t give two sh*ts. He’s not a normal person though, he works for the Government, who specifically implemented policies designed to STOP people doing this. This is a classic case of one rule for the plebs and another rule for the ruling class.
If its fine for normal people its fine for others too.
I’ve explained why it isn’t, which you’ve conveniently ignored for ideological reasons.
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family halfway across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
There is no suggestion at all that Cummings, his sister , his wife or his children came into contact with the elderly grandparents.
That bit is completely made up, it seems.
According to who? The person whose story has changed several times in the last 24 hours and completely contradicts what his wife wrote, and what the public has been told for the last six weeks.
Again that's wrong. The government has only given one official account of Cummings conduct, just now.
Everything else comes from a press that hates his guts.
You don't actually know anything about who, if anybody, briefed that journalist, do you? Or if that journalist, desperate as they all are not to be scooped, just made it up.
A key difference between the risks of dying from falling down the stairs and from Covid-19 is that falling down the stairs isn't contagious, while Covid-19 is highly infectious and deadly. Both risks should be managed but they are different.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
But if he and the child self isolated and his sister brought their food to the door, not entering, how did anyone get infected or even exposed?
If wor Dom was a normal person, I would be totally fine with what he did on a moral level. I wouldn’t give two sh*ts. He’s not a normal person though, he works for the Government, who specifically implemented policies designed to STOP people doing this. This is a classic case of one rule for the plebs and another rule for the ruling class.
That's undeniably true. But is working for the government, as opposed to being Professor Lockdown, enough?
Probably isn’t enough. Let’s be honest Cummings isn’t going anywhere over this.
1979 General Election is up and running on BBC Parliament
Anyone know which constituencies had the biggest swings between 1979 and 2019 ? I'll go for Con to Lab, Hove and Lab to Con, Rother Valley. I'll change the Con to Lab swing to Bristol West.
You don't actually know anything about who, if anybody, briefed that journalist, do you? Or if that journalist, desperate as they all are not to be scooped, just made it up.
LOL
Everybody knows exactly who briefed that journalist.
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family halfway across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
There is no suggestion at all that Cummings, his sister , his wife or his children came into contact with the elderly grandparents.
That bit is completely made up, it seems.
According to who? The person whose story has changed several times in the last 24 hours and completely contradicts what his wife wrote, and what the public has been told for the last six weeks.
Maybe there is more to this from both sides and certainly the fenial police were involved asks big questions of who is telling the truth
I predict Cummings will survive and continue to anger many
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family 350 miles across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
They're saying they didn't stay with grandparents.
Police said they spoke to owners of of a property in Durham who confirmed that big Dom was there and self isolating in part of the house.
I think we are in semantics maybe. The statement says police did not speak, but police say they "attended" a property.
Looks like the Guardian may have over-egged their pudding - the direct quote:
“Officers made contact with the owners of that address who confirmed that the individual in question was present and was self-isolating in part of the house.
“In line with national policing guidance, officers explained to the family the guidelines around self-isolation and reiterated the appropriate advice around essential travel.”
In all the kerfuffle on this thread the only post of merit is Andrew Adonis's (HYUFD, 10:27), namely that we should be looking at China/HK, not Cummings's escapade.
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family halfway across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
There is no suggestion at all that Cummings, his sister , his wife or his children came into contact with the elderly grandparents.
That bit is completely made up, it seems.
According to who? The person whose story has changed several times in the last 24 hours and completely contradicts what his wife wrote, and what the public has been told for the last six weeks.
Maybe there is more to this from both sides and certainly the fenial police were involved asks big questions of who is telling the truth
I predict Cummings will survive and continue to anger many
I agree he will survive, if they wanted him gone the press chose a bad time to break the story with recess coming up. I think the press quite like him there and they have timed the story to leave him in place but damaged goods for down the line.
Voters relationships have improved but they have gained weight.
The government gets positive marks for reducing the spread and preventing the NHS being overwhelmed but negative marks for providing enough PPE and testing and on care homes.
Sunak, Raab, Boris and Hancock all get net positive marks but Hunt, Gove and Patel net negatives.
53% think the Government is reopening too fast, 30% about the right time, 11% too slowly
A spokesperson for Durham Constabulary said: "On Tuesday, March 31, our officers were made aware of reports that an individual had travelled from London to Durham and was present at an address in the city.
"Officers made contact with the owners of that address who confirmed that the individual in question was present and was self-isolating in part of the house.
"In line with national policing guidance, officers explained to the family the arrangements around self-isolation guidelines and reiterated the appropriate advice around essential travel."
The issue for the public isn't who loves Dom. Its who loves their children.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
Do they love their parents? Seriously who on earth takes a (potentially) infected covid family halfway across the country to stay with elderly grandparents?
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
There is no suggestion at all that Cummings, his sister , his wife or his children came into contact with the elderly grandparents.
That bit is completely made up, it seems.
It is funny that the people who are most animated about Dom's little excursion are the ones who had the biggest axe to grind with him in the first place, no?
I highly doubt he visited Durham to take a tour of the cathedral, so what he did or didn't do was undoubtedly decided in the best interests of his family and young child and, if his grandparents were involved, with their consent.
This is not about what Dom did or didn't do to protect his family. It's about the people he's been running rings around - remainers and lefties - for years - finally seeing this as an opportunity for revenge.
Go nuts, people. Enjoy your revenge. But enjoy it for what it is. A brutal, tribal welp that one of your enemies has broken a trivial rule (no police action taken) and now you get to hop on the outrage bandwagon.
In all the kerfuffle on this thread the only post of merit is Andrew Adonis's (HYUFD, 10:27), namely that we should be looking at China/HK, not Cummings's escapade.</blockquote
Adonis, for the first time in his life makes sense.
Sincerely, I think he should be given some latitude on his workload given his health. There are other sticks to attack him with.
I have said for some time that Boris is not well and his reputation for going into hibernation is not helping. Cummings should go or be sacked but this is a bank holiday weekend and parliament is in recess so they may just ride it out.
To me this is poor and is adding to the sense of drift at the top but maybe the comfort zone of an 80 seat majority gives them an arrogance that would not normally be there
I have not been contributing much to PB recently as the same polarised arguments are on repeat and it does good just to step away from the keyboard and do something else
This conservative is not content with the leadership, not because they cannot lead, but that they seem to have lost impetus and ambition.
I hope Boris rediscovers his energy and profile soon otherwise maybe time to go on paternity leave
He is a lying cheating waster lacking any morals or principles.
Nowhere in the second quote does it say they stayed in London. And if Dom did get so sick then presumably its good for the child/children they were somewhere they had access to childcare and support?
Cummings will have to go, but he'll need to be dragged out whilst he clings on with his fingernails.
The trouble is, if he doesn't, the Government's whole lockdown message dissolves instantly.
We've now had a series of top advisors in Government personally ignore their own advice, and this hasn't gone unnoticed by the public.
"Looking after children" - if that is what it was, will dissolve the lockdown?
Which part of your precious guidelines state that it’s okay to travel 250 miles to look after your children in your second home in Durham rather than in London?
Cummings will have to go, but he'll need to be dragged out whilst he clings on with his fingernails.
The trouble is, if he doesn't, the Government's whole lockdown message dissolves instantly.
We've now had a series of top advisors in Government personally ignore their own advice, and this hasn't gone unnoticed by the public.
"Looking after children" - if that is what it was, will dissolve the lockdown?
Which part of your precious guidelines state that it’s okay to travel 250 miles to look after your children in your second home in Durham rather than in London?
Interesting the flat contradiction of the Guardian/Mirror "Durham Police sources" - someone is telling porkies....
But the news story never said the police spoke to them.
Police spoke to Dominic Cummings about breaching the government’s lockdown rules after he was seen in Durham, 264 miles from his London home, despite having had symptoms of coronavirus, the Guardian can reveal.
Comments
They would want Cummings sacked if he rolled over in bed.
It is his track record of evading scrutiny, hiding in fridges, not a single appearance before the Commons liason Committee etc that makes the #Where'sBoris stick.
Either he leaves or he becomes an albatross around Johnson's neck. The pandemic is the defining story of the year at the very least, and this will always be associated with it if he stays.
Quarantine applies to people with symptoms, and the rest of the household. It has never required a positive test.
Indeed enforcing strict quarantine is an essential part of relaxing lockdown.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1264105708452220929?s=20
People have been stripped of their dignity, their liberty and their privacy, and it serves the government right if it is trapped by its own dreadful measures.
If people think that this is hypocrisy then they'll be unforgiving.
If people think this was done in good faith to look after children and they'd have done the same thing then it will blow over besides people who hate Dom.
You really will defend the indefensible in the name of your culture war. You’re just as bad as the “FBPE remainer frothers” you deride so much.
Total deaths in "falls from height" in UK in 2018-19 was 40.
Also how well incremental improvement in H&S in the home and medical care works - the number of stair related deaths was 1000+ in 2000.
I'll go for Con to Lab, Hove and Lab to Con, Rother Valley.
I'll change the Con to Lab swing to Bristol West.
In fact, I would think it would be wise for Big Dom opponents to not dig on this at all and just leave it as implication
An extension without an extension.
See?
What I've read is that Big Dom has denied the police spoke to him or his wife.
But the news story never said the police spoke to them.
Also the fury coming from people like Blackford, Campbell and others does give the impression they fear him and want him removed.
I expect him to survive, rightly or wrongly, and by the nature of this covid crisis the narrative will move onto something else after this weekend
This does not excuse Boris from disappearing
Someone one was telling us last night this was a non-story that the public would not be the least bit bothered about. That aged well.
To put the Covid-19 risk into context, a fatality rate of about 1% would result in a WW2 size death toll in months, if those risks aren't contained. Covid-19 is a deadly disease by any measure. I am in favour of managing those risks in an intelligent way. That might include allowing younger, fitter people to do more activities. I should point out that if the fatality rate of younger people is minimal, given IFR is an average figure, it means the death toll at higher ages is truly horrendous.
Which brings me to Cummings. The story is inaccurately reported, even by the Guardian that broke it. Cummings broke quarantine, not lockdown. He may have knowingly transmitted a deadly and highly contagious disease. Killing his own parents is between him and them. Transmitting the disease to the wider Durham community goes beyond carelessness.
This strikes me as a summer storm, sharp but brief. If Boris wants to weather it he could. If he chooses not to then Cummings goes. Either resolution is not great for Boris. Cummings is a useful lightning rod and also a source of ideas in a government somewhat short of them. OTOH the irrational hatred of Cummings as the one who delivered Brexit suggests that this would not be forgotten easily and a clearly still below par Boris might think he doesn't need this.
My guess, unless there is something additional, is that he stays. Which is probably a good thing for the government with a frightening amount on its plate.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1261323480903147521?s=20
Incredibly selfish and nothing to do with the children who could have been looked after by their aunt.
That bit is completely made up, it seems.
As I want Covid-19
As a friend, as a friend
As an known enemy
Take back control, stay at home
The cough is yours, stay alert
Take a rest as a friend
As an old
Memoria, memoria
Memoria, memoria
https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1264126108733186050?s=20
Everything else comes from a press that hates his guts.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1263914724305055745
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-cummings-coronavirus-test-symptoms-positive-latest-a9433331.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/top-u-k-aide-cummings-self-isolates-with-coronavirus-symptoms
He was seen in County Durham on Tuesday 31 March. So he developed Coronavirus symptoms on 28/29 March so decided to drive up North as a result.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown
No wriggle room there.
Either the police did speak to Cummings - and he's lying - or they didn't and the Guardian is.
The trouble is, if he doesn't, the Government's whole lockdown message dissolves instantly.
We've now had a series of top advisors in Government personally ignore their own advice, and this hasn't gone unnoticed by the public.
Everybody knows exactly who briefed that journalist.
I predict Cummings will survive and continue to anger many
He can still meet him and give advice behind the scenes, and a different CoS in No.10 might improve things anyway.
Who's house?
“Officers made contact with the owners of that address who confirmed that the individual in question was present and was self-isolating in part of the house.
“In line with national policing guidance, officers explained to the family the guidelines around self-isolation and reiterated the appropriate advice around essential travel.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-durham-trip-coronavirus-lockdown
What we have is a phased re-opening plan, and social distancing in public.
"Officers made contact with the owners of that address who confirmed that the individual in question was present and was self-isolating in part of the house.
"In line with national policing guidance, officers explained to the family the arrangements around self-isolation guidelines and reiterated the appropriate advice around essential travel."
I don't. And I meeting both together today.
I highly doubt he visited Durham to take a tour of the cathedral, so what he did or didn't do was undoubtedly decided in the best interests of his family and young child and, if his grandparents were involved, with their consent.
This is not about what Dom did or didn't do to protect his family. It's about the people he's been running rings around - remainers and lefties - for years - finally seeing this as an opportunity for revenge.
Go nuts, people. Enjoy your revenge. But enjoy it for what it is. A brutal, tribal welp that one of your enemies has broken a trivial rule (no police action taken) and now you get to hop on the outrage bandwagon.
He should be treated like Stalin.
The government decision making is now relevant only to the economic issues - when shops, pubs etc can open.