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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    MattW said:

    Genuine question:

    Is there any indication or documentation whether socially distanced Personal Training is allowed?

    They say work where you can't work from home go to work, which says it should be OK, and it fits within the "gatherings of 2" rule from the regulations.

    Outside - yes:

    You can only exercise with up to one person from outside your household – this means you should not play team sports, except with members of your own household.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    RobD said:


    Genuinely confusing. :D

    I'm entirely befuddled.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    eek said:

    More links at lockdownsceptics this afternoon to software engineers and epidemiologists taking down Ferguson's 13 year old code for the model that put UK in lockdown.

    https://lockdownsceptics.org/

    “It is very difficult to look at the Ferguson code with any understanding of software engineering and conclude that this is good, or even tolerable,”

    OK but we are where we are. Never mind the code, is the model right, and can it be reimplemented?
    This is another argument that we are repeating from last week.

    The code is bad but the model generated results that matched the other models other countries have used.

    Of course the model is correct isn't the answer the people "who want someone to blame" will accept.
    Does it not worry you that the massively disruptive government policy since the War was driven by the results of computer code that clearly has major issues?

    According to those who have analysed what has been released (and this isn't the actual code, but a cleaner version) you get different results from the model depending on how many CPUs there are on the machine (as one example).

  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    Did he say anything that was contradictory? I wonder how much of it is to do with who is saying it, rather than what is being said.
    For example, he said that you could play sports only with members of your own household. It turns out that you can play non team sports with one member of another household. If he messed up there, then I wouldn't be confident that he got everything else right.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    Compare and contrast the ranty absurdity of Jezbollah's question which Bozza just bats away vs the forensic take apart of the massive contradictions in the various bits of government advice

    No Labour member should be allowed to use the term Jezbollah IMO.

    Not very comradely is it?
    Maybe Jezbollah shouldn't be in the Labour Party given his history of antisemitism? Would be a cleaner solution.
    I wasnt talking to you.

    I was talking to a fellow member
    Why should anyone be upset calling him Jezbollah? He was always perfectly happy sharing a platform with Hezbollah, Hamas, the PLO, the IRA. We know his causes, he explains them on Press TV and whilst attending wreath laying ceremonies. For an alleged man of peace with a lifetime of fighting anti-semitism he does seem unlucky that so many of his friends and allies are screaming anti-semites who keep turning up to march and speak at the same rallies as he does.

    For all that the Tory press smear Labour leaders - and they do - no smearing was needed with Jeremy.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    Did he say anything that was contradictory? I wonder how much of it is to do with who is saying it, rather than what is being said.
    For example, he said that you could play sports only with members of your own household. It turns out that you can play non team sports with one member of another household. If he messed up there, then I wouldn't be confident that he got everything else right.
    As it is all in writing maybe check the relevant section
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    Did he say anything that was contradictory? I wonder how much of it is to do with who is saying it, rather than what is being said.
    image
    I do hope someone invites Sturgeon or Drakeford to comment on it......
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    So little betting in last 7 days

    Basketball: -£32.85 | Darts: £84.42 | Esports: £4.26 | Horse Racing: -£2.53 | Snooker: £27.10 | Soccer: £78.66 | Volleyball: £66.17 Total P&L: £225.23
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    edited May 2020
    Andrew said:
    I think what Peston and the ONS are trying to say is that based on their sample, they estimate that 0.24% of the population would have tested positive if they had been tested. And that's an average for any given time during that sampling period.

    Obviously we know exactly how many people did test positive during that people, and that's a completely different number. Both the ONS description and Peston's are quite misleading, though Peston's is more so.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    RobD said:

    Andrew said:
    I wonder what it was at the peak, as this is from well after it.
    Haven't the antibody surveys shown that it is about 10% that have the antibody? Would require six million to have had it over the duration.
    Personally, I view those figures quoted by Peston as almost meaningless. Almost as meaningless as "walking along the beach, we picked up a handful of sand. We counted 15493 grains of sand in that handful, which we calculate to be 0.0005% of the grains of sand on the beach."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,423

    Compare and contrast the ranty absurdity of Jezbollah's question which Bozza just bats away vs the forensic take apart of the massive contradictions in the various bits of government advice

    No Labour member should be allowed to use the term Jezbollah IMO.

    Not very comradely is it?
    Maybe Jezbollah shouldn't be in the Labour Party given his history of antisemitism? Would be a cleaner solution.
    I wasnt talking to you.

    I was talking to a fellow member
    Why should anyone be upset calling him Jezbollah? He was always perfectly happy sharing a platform with Hezbollah, Hamas, the PLO, the IRA. We know his causes, he explains them on Press TV and whilst attending wreath laying ceremonies. For an alleged man of peace with a lifetime of fighting anti-semitism he does seem unlucky that so many of his friends and allies are screaming anti-semites who keep turning up to march and speak at the same rallies as he does.

    For all that the Tory press smear Labour leaders - and they do - no smearing was needed with Jeremy.
    Just call him the Jezaster.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    Nigelb said:

    Once 'Covid is detected in the water supply of a certain town', will a bit of bleach sort it out? Can any epidemiologists, am or pro, confirm?

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1259871194565742594?s=20

    The idea is to use it as another screening method for viral prevalence.
    I seriously doubt it's a means of transmission.

    The whole thing is a bit of a distraction.
    Afrer the water is pre-loved, so to speak.

    I prsesume someone has muddled mains water supply in and sewerage out - there is some viral excretionin the faeces in some people so sampling the water for the relevant RNA will give some indication. This came up a few weeks back IIRC but without the mains water implication.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    Did he say anything that was contradictory? I wonder how much of it is to do with who is saying it, rather than what is being said.
    For example, he said that you could play sports only with members of your own household. It turns out that you can play non team sports with one member of another household. If he messed up there, then I wouldn't be confident that he got everything else right.
    Seems like a rather minor point, and he was on the more cautious side. That one line has caused all the fuss over the last 12 hours?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    MattW said:

    Genuine question:

    Is there any indication or documentation whether socially distanced Personal Training is allowed?

    They say work where you can't work from home go to work, which says it should be OK, and it fits within the "gatherings of 2" rule from the regulations.

    Outside - yes:

    You can only exercise with up to one person from outside your household – this means you should not play team sports, except with members of your own household.
    I wonder if that means one partner who has to be the same each time, to avoid social mixing. Which might catch the PT who is associating with the different clients.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,423
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Once 'Covid is detected in the water supply of a certain town', will a bit of bleach sort it out? Can any epidemiologists, am or pro, confirm?

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1259871194565742594?s=20

    The idea is to use it as another screening method for viral prevalence.
    I seriously doubt it's a means of transmission.

    The whole thing is a bit of a distraction.
    Afrer the water is pre-loved, so to speak.

    I prsesume someone has muddled mains water supply in and sewerage out
    Let us hope water boards don’t or we’ll have a cholera epidemic to contend with too!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    My guess is he hasn’t read it.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    From what little of the debate I saw, I thought both Starmer and Johnson perfectly good and reasonable.

    The "Command" document clearly has some inconsistencies and the timescales are extremely challenging in a few areas but it's a decent start.

    I've long suspected June 1st was going to be the big day and we can but hope that proves to be the case with a smooth transition to the next level up (or down).

    The communication management of this hasn't been brilliant though I thought Johnson made up some ground from last evening and presumably tonight's statement is part designed to restore the sense of the Government and Johnson being in control of events.

    As I said earlier, I'm still concerned at the notion of "actively encouraging" people back to work as this made me immediately think of compulsion with subtle or unsubtle threats notwithstanding.

    I live in London (I do know a lot of people don't) and the issues with public transport seem a very long way from resolution. Social distancing cannot function on the Underground or on commuter trains even if you had the full service and the same would be true of most public rail and bus networks.

    For those dependent on the Underground to get to work this is a real issue - if you are in construction and live in Barking and the site is in Battersea that's a long walk.

    I've also noted some intemperate and downright hostile language toward those who can work at home. Attitudes to work and what work should be are changing rapidly but some still seem stuck in a long-forgotten mindset of attendance and working regular hours.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Once 'Covid is detected in the water supply of a certain town', will a bit of bleach sort it out? Can any epidemiologists, am or pro, confirm?

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1259871194565742594?s=20

    The idea is to use it as another screening method for viral prevalence.
    I seriously doubt it's a means of transmission.

    The whole thing is a bit of a distraction.
    Afrer the water is pre-loved, so to speak.

    I prsesume someone has muddled mains water supply in and sewerage out
    Let us hope water boards don’t or we’ll have a cholera epidemic to contend with too!
    Oh, I believe London already recycles water quite often, so to speak. But it's chlorinated, given UV treatment, etc., which sound just the job for killing any virus which slips past the filter beds.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Once 'Covid is detected in the water supply of a certain town', will a bit of bleach sort it out? Can any epidemiologists, am or pro, confirm?

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1259871194565742594?s=20

    The idea is to use it as another screening method for viral prevalence.
    I seriously doubt it's a means of transmission.

    The whole thing is a bit of a distraction.
    Afrer the water is pre-loved, so to speak.

    I prsesume someone has muddled mains water supply in and sewerage out - there is some viral excretionin the faeces in some people so sampling the water for the relevant RNA will give some indication. This came up a few weeks back IIRC but without the mains water implication.
    By sampling sewage across greater Paris for more than 1 month, researchers have detected a rise and fall in novel coronavirus concentrations that correspond to the shape of the COVID-19 outbreak in the region, where a lockdown is now suppressing spread of the disease. Although several research groups have reported detecting coronavirus in wastewater, the researchers say the new study is the first to show that the technique can pick up a sharp rise in viral concentrations in sewage before cases explode in the clinic. That points to its potential as a cheap, noninvasive tool to warn against outbreaks, they say.

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/coronavirus-found-paris-sewage-points-early-warning-system
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Nigelb said:

    Doesn't pull any punches:

    Humanity has proved highly effective at finding medical countermeasures to infectious diseases, and is likely to do so for COVID-19; but this may take time. As quickly as possible, the Government must move to a more sustainable solution, where the continued restrictions described above can be lifted altogether. To enable this, the Government must develop, trial, manufacture and distribute reliable treatments or vaccines as swiftly as possible.

    The virus is unlikely to die out spontaneously; nor is it likely to be eradicated. Only one human infectious disease - smallpox - has ever been eradicated. The Government must therefore develop either a treatment that enables us to manage it like other serious diseases or have people acquire immunity by vaccination.

    It is possible a safe and effective vaccine will not be developed for a long time (or even ever), so while maximising the chances this will happen quickly where the Government can, it must not rely on this course of action happening. There are currently over 70 credible vaccine development programmes worldwide and the first UK human trial has begun at the University of Oxford.

    Which is probably why challenge trials are seriously being discussed again...

    WHO conditionally backs Covid-19 vaccine trials that infect people
    ‘Challenge’ studies would deliberately give coronavirus to healthy volunteers

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/may/08/who-conditionally-backs-covid-19-vaccine-trials-that-infect-people
    As one of those involved in eradicating smallpox and who closely observed the eradication of the only other disease globally, rinderpest, noted to me two weeks ago - testing played no part in the eradication of either disease.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Once 'Covid is detected in the water supply of a certain town', will a bit of bleach sort it out? Can any epidemiologists, am or pro, confirm?

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1259871194565742594?s=20

    The idea is to use it as another screening method for viral prevalence.
    I seriously doubt it's a means of transmission.

    The whole thing is a bit of a distraction.
    Afrer the water is pre-loved, so to speak.

    I prsesume someone has muddled mains water supply in and sewerage out - there is some viral excretionin the faeces in some people so sampling the water for the relevant RNA will give some indication. This came up a few weeks back IIRC but without the mains water implication.
    By sampling sewage across greater Paris for more than 1 month, researchers have detected a rise and fall in novel coronavirus concentrations that correspond to the shape of the COVID-19 outbreak in the region, where a lockdown is now suppressing spread of the disease. Although several research groups have reported detecting coronavirus in wastewater, the researchers say the new study is the first to show that the technique can pick up a sharp rise in viral concentrations in sewage before cases explode in the clinic. That points to its potential as a cheap, noninvasive tool to warn against outbreaks, they say.

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/coronavirus-found-paris-sewage-points-early-warning-system
    Thank you - that must be what I remember.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited May 2020
    Sounds like there's no iceberg according to Peston - in fact quite the opposite.
    But he might be wrong/misleading. Let's hope he's wrong.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like there's no iceberg according to Peston - in fact quite the opposite.
    But he might be wrong/misleading. Let's hope he's wrong.

    Remember it's only sensitive to those that actually have it right now, rather than all those who have previously had it.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Chris said:


    I think what Peston and the ONS are trying to say is that based on their sample, they estimate that 0.24% of the population would have tested positive if they had been tested. And that's an average for any given time during that sampling period.

    Sure, that's definitely correct - see his next tweet, they mentioned their estimate of 136k, which matches that % of English population.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like there's no iceberg according to Peston - in fact quite the opposite.
    But he might be wrong/misleading. Let's hope he's wrong.

    He simply does not seem to understand the numbers. So he is definitely misleading, and most probably wrong.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Compare and contrast the ranty absurdity of Jezbollah's question which Bozza just bats away vs the forensic take apart of the massive contradictions in the various bits of government advice

    No Labour member should be allowed to use the term Jezbollah IMO.

    Not very comradely is it?
    Maybe Jezbollah shouldn't be in the Labour Party given his history of antisemitism? Would be a cleaner solution.
    I wasnt talking to you.

    I was talking to a fellow member
    Why should anyone be upset calling him Jezbollah? He was always perfectly happy sharing a platform with Hezbollah, Hamas, the PLO, the IRA. We know his causes, he explains them on Press TV and whilst attending wreath laying ceremonies. For an alleged man of peace with a lifetime of fighting anti-semitism he does seem unlucky that so many of his friends and allies are screaming anti-semites who keep turning up to march and speak at the same rallies as he does.

    For all that the Tory press smear Labour leaders - and they do - no smearing was needed with Jeremy.
    Its not called for, not Comradely and you are living in the past.

    No wonder your not universally welcomed back.

    I thought you had been a party member for 25 years instead of which you behave like an OCD name calling school boy
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    edited May 2020
    As an aside, I don't know if betting shops would be classed as "non essential retail" or "leisure activity" but I imagine a simultaneous resumption of racing and re-opening of betting shops would be the BHA's aim on June 1st.

    Having glanced through the Recovery Strategy, I note no mention of takeaways or restaurants and if/when they can open (and how) and the language has changed from "actively encouraged" to "should travel to work if their workplace is open". The latter will keep many stuck because though they may wish to work their workplace won't be available.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    edited May 2020
    TimT said:

    RobD said:

    Andrew said:
    I wonder what it was at the peak, as this is from well after it.
    Haven't the antibody surveys shown that it is about 10% that have the antibody? Would require six million to have had it over the duration.
    Personally, I view those figures quoted by Peston as almost meaningless. Almost as meaningless as "walking along the beach, we picked up a handful of sand. We counted 15493 grains of sand in that handful, which we calculate to be 0.0005% of the grains of sand on the beach."
    It's just an estimate of the percentage of people who had the virus on any given day during that period, averaged over the days.

    It's not meaningless, but Peston and the ONS confuse matters by describing it inaccurately (indeed, nonsensically).
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Facetime works pretty well anyway. I use that for my PT sessions
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kinabalu said:

    Sugar speaks here ON topic -

    Does anybody agree with my Trump theory. It's clear to me he will get a 2nd term. I forecast he will introduce Ivanka into an important gov role around 2022. With a view of her becoming the first female president of the USA in November 2024.

    — Lord Sugar (@Lord_Sugar) May 11, 2020
    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    Facetime works pretty well anyway. I use that for my PT sessions
    Indeed.

    But I'm modestly invested in a gym where one of the income streams for the coaches is 1:1 PT !!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Superb statement from Nicola Sturgeon . Scotland is very lucky to have such a wonderful leader at this time who shows true humanity and compassion .
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    HYUFD said:

    /twitter.com/YouGov/status/1259888344332488706?s=20

    % of people who have read even the redacted SAGE documentation that the government used to base their actions....0.00000001%
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like there's no iceberg according to Peston - in fact quite the opposite.
    But he might be wrong/misleading. Let's hope he's wrong.

    I think we know there's no iceberg by now. It still looks like a fatality rate of 0.5-1%, just as the Chinese data (outside Hubei) suggested. Probably closer to 1% than to 0.5%.

    The Chinese probably overestimated the fatality rate because they missed asymptomatic infections, but the more elderly Western population cancels out that effect.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited May 2020
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like there's no iceberg according to Peston - in fact quite the opposite.
    But he might be wrong/misleading. Let's hope he's wrong.

    Remember it's only sensitive to those that actually have it right now, rather than all those who have previously had it.
    No word on the Porton Down/population sampling stuff yet then ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like there's no iceberg according to Peston - in fact quite the opposite.
    But he might be wrong/misleading. Let's hope he's wrong.

    Remember it's only sensitive to those that actually have it right now, rather than all those who have previously had it.
    No word on the Porton Down/population sampling stuff yet then ?
    I might be wrong, but i thought i heard we were getting something this week.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    kinabalu said:

    It just shows how far Corbyn has fallen that most everyone on here dismisses him

    But almost everyone on here has always dismissed him.
    There's always been much wisdom.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    Did he say anything that was contradictory? I wonder how much of it is to do with who is saying it, rather than what is being said.
    image
    That does sound MUCH better.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    It just shows how far Corbyn has fallen that most everyone on here dismisses him

    But almost everyone on here has always dismissed him.
    There's always been much wisdom.
    PB Tories, always right, never (have to) learn.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    That's great news.

    All I need now is an Official official source.

    We have been squeaky clean, and have lots of Key Workers.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited May 2020
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Scott_xP said:
    It's pretty amazing. Those strong american institutions and checks and balances are getting a real stress test these past years.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    kinabalu said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    Did he say anything that was contradictory? I wonder how much of it is to do with who is saying it, rather than what is being said.
    image
    That does sound MUCH better.
    I think Barry from Blackpool might be a tad confused by it though.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    I might be wrong, but i thought i heard we were getting something this week.

    Imma guess ....... 14.32835%. Exactly.

    Means we need Rt <1.16. Maybe higher if kids don't transmit?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    MattW said:

    That's great news.

    All I need now is an Official official source.

    We have been squeaky clean, and have lots of Key Workers.
    Is it good news? They can only meet with a single client in total. Not just a single client at a time.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited May 2020
    Just watched a report on ITV Wales from Saltney on the English border and the border runs through an estate thereby creating different rules for opposite neighbours

    Early signs of resentment from the Welsh residents that the English residents can enjoy the nearby park and they cannot

    Also one of our neighbours runs a business based in England and he has started back at work today even though he has 30 miles to the English border then returns into Wales at the end of his day

    Frankly I do not see the Welsh government being able to hold their advice more than a week or so
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    It just shows how far Corbyn has fallen that most everyone on here dismisses him

    But almost everyone on here has always dismissed him.
    There's always been much wisdom.
    PB Tories, always right, never (have to) learn.
    Even wisdom has its limits, my Tory friend :)
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like there's no iceberg according to Peston - in fact quite the opposite.
    But he might be wrong/misleading. Let's hope he's wrong.

    Remember it's only sensitive to those that actually have it right now, rather than all those who have previously had it.
    No word on the Porton Down/population sampling stuff yet then ?
    I might be wrong, but i thought i heard we were getting something this week.
    I think the Porton Down work is the antibody part of the same survey Peston is quoting. The ONS page says the antibody results aren't available yet:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurvey/england10may2020
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    stodge said:

    As an aside, I don't know if betting shops would be classed as "non essential retail" or "leisure activity" but I imagine a simultaneous resumption of racing and re-opening of betting shops would be the BHA's aim on June 1st.

    Having glanced through the Recovery Strategy, I note no mention of takeaways or restaurants and if/when they can open (and how) and the language has changed from "actively encouraged" to "should travel to work if their workplace is open". The latter will keep many stuck because though they may wish to work their workplace won't be available.

    Takeaways never had to close. I think HMG was a bit surprised so many did. (You may recall there was even talk of "proper" restaurants converting to takeaway/delivery.) We should note that chefs were among occupations listed with a high Covid-19 fatality rate which might suggest problems with social distancing in kitchens, though I've not read any analysis.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
    Jeez, that's a long time to kiss arse for a reward that might be out of Trump's gift depending on how things go.
  • stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
    A "deal" with Trump wouldn't be worth the paper it isn't written on.

    Pence is in a reasonable position in 2024 if Trump wins this year (and a less good but okay position if he loses).

    But I think Trump will certainly look around, deal or not. And probably at Haley primarily.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    RobD said:

    MattW said:

    That's great news.

    All I need now is an Official official source.

    We have been squeaky clean, and have lots of Key Workers.
    Is it good news? They can only meet with a single client in total. Not just a single client at a time.
    That's not clear from the Tweet; that's why I need a bit more info.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    Carnyx said:


    Afrer the water is pre-loved, so to speak.

    Wash me in the water that
    You washed your dirty daughter in
    And I shall be whiter than the whitewash on the wall.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    MattW said:

    RobD said:

    MattW said:

    That's great news.

    All I need now is an Official official source.

    We have been squeaky clean, and have lots of Key Workers.
    Is it good news? They can only meet with a single client in total. Not just a single client at a time.
    That's not clear from the Tweet; that's why I need a bit more info.
    I think in the document it says you can meet one person from outside your household. This applies both ways, so one of the two can't go and meet twenty, for example.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Just watched a report on ITV Wales from Saltney on the English border and the border runs through an estate thereby creating different rules for opposite neighbours

    Early signs of resentment from the Welsh residents that the English residents can enjoy the nearby park and they cannot

    Also one of our neighbours runs a business based in England and he has started back at work today even though he has 30 miles to the English border then returns into Wales at the end of his day

    Frankly I do not see the Welsh government being able to hold their advice more than a week or so

    Or they hold their advice but give up on enforcing it and people take actions into their own hands - and the government can blame the English.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    stodge said:

    As an aside, I don't know if betting shops would be classed as "non essential retail" or "leisure activity" but I imagine a simultaneous resumption of racing and re-opening of betting shops would be the BHA's aim on June 1st.

    Having glanced through the Recovery Strategy, I note no mention of takeaways or restaurants and if/when they can open (and how) and the language has changed from "actively encouraged" to "should travel to work if their workplace is open". The latter will keep many stuck because though they may wish to work their workplace won't be available.

    Takeaways never had to close. I think HMG was a bit surprised so many did. (You may recall there was even talk of "proper" restaurants converting to takeaway/delivery.) We should note that chefs were among occupations listed with a high Covid-19 fatality rate which might suggest problems with social distancing in kitchens, though I've not read any analysis.
    Interesting - Takeaway was banned in Guernsey because of the challenges of social distancing in kitchens.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
    They might do, though if Trump is re elected the odds would not favour Pence or Haley.

    No party has won a third term in the White House since 1988.

    Pence, Haley or maybe Romney might have a better chance of winning against President Biden or his VP if he wins in November

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
    They might do, though if Trump is re elected the odds would not favour Pence or Haley.

    No party has won a third term in the White House since 1988

    Ok, now I know I am getting older, when a year within my lifespan is given as an example of something that has not happened in a long time.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited May 2020

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    Did he say anything that was contradictory? I wonder how much of it is to do with who is saying it, rather than what is being said.
    image
    kinabalu said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The published plan is good. Don't know why Johnson has made such a mess of launching it and communicating the key points.

    Did he say anything that was contradictory? I wonder how much of it is to do with who is saying it, rather than what is being said.
    image
    That does sound MUCH better.
    Maybe the difference between "Stay alert" and "Be careful". The second is more of a warning, especially if combined with "The virus is still there"
  • Just watched a report on ITV Wales from Saltney on the English border and the border runs through an estate thereby creating different rules for opposite neighbours

    Early signs of resentment from the Welsh residents that the English residents can enjoy the nearby park and they cannot

    Also one of our neighbours runs a business based in England and he has started back at work today even though he has 30 miles to the English border then returns into Wales at the end of his day

    Frankly I do not see the Welsh government being able to hold their advice more than a week or so

    Do that many people in Wales live in estates bisected by the England/Wales border? And is it a lot more than live around borders in continental Europe, or between US states, where rules similarly differ?

    Aren't you in danger of drawing general conclusions from annoyance amongst a pretty atypical sample?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Andy_JS said:
    People are really committed to making the 8th the peak.

    Literally any other bucketing of data makes it the 15th/16th.

    It doesn't even change the message much. But all it takes is a single death being added to the 15th and they'll all need to start talking about the double peak.
  • HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
    No party has won a third term in the White House since 1988.

    Although that's a sample size of three, and on two of those three occasions the incumbent party has won the popular vote.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Like the trend line the swedes put through it clearly show the peak is later than the 8th.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's pretty amazing. Those strong american institutions and checks and balances are getting a real stress test these past years.
    It is the same as here. A system that depends on conventions can struggle when one or more parties sets out to ignore or even defy them. Jeremy Corbyn should have resigned after the PLP expressed no confidence in him and most of the Shadow Cabinet declined to work with him (although that probably goes the other way as well, and they should have accepted the duly elected leader). From the blue team, prorogation of parliament and even abusing the Palace for party political ends. If, hypothetically, Boris chooses to nominate as bishops and judges only those who were educated in the Classics, there is no mechanism to stop him packing the benches and pulpits.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    kinabalu said:

    Sugar speaks here ON topic -

    Does anybody agree with my Trump theory. It's clear to me he will get a 2nd term. I forecast he will introduce Ivanka into an important gov role around 2022. With a view of her becoming the first female president of the USA in November 2024.

    — Lord Sugar (@Lord_Sugar) May 11, 2020
    I fully expected GW Bush to use a similar mechanism (replace Cheney as VP and later resign on health grounds) to install Condaleeza Rice into the White House and shoot two Democrat foxes at once.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Just watched a report on ITV Wales from Saltney on the English border and the border runs through an estate thereby creating different rules for opposite neighbours

    Early signs of resentment from the Welsh residents that the English residents can enjoy the nearby park and they cannot

    Also one of our neighbours runs a business based in England and he has started back at work today even though he has 30 miles to the English border then returns into Wales at the end of his day

    Frankly I do not see the Welsh government being able to hold their advice more than a week or so

    Do that many people in Wales live in estates bisected by the England/Wales border? And is it a lot more than live around borders in continental Europe, or between US states, where rules similarly differ?

    Aren't you in danger of drawing general conclusions from annoyance amongst a pretty atypical sample?
    Maybe he's talking about Roger Mortimer.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited May 2020

    Just watched a report on ITV Wales from Saltney on the English border and the border runs through an estate thereby creating different rules for opposite neighbours

    Early signs of resentment from the Welsh residents that the English residents can enjoy the nearby park and they cannot

    Also one of our neighbours runs a business based in England and he has started back at work today even though he has 30 miles to the English border then returns into Wales at the end of his day

    Frankly I do not see the Welsh government being able to hold their advice more than a week or so

    Do that many people in Wales live in estates bisected by the England/Wales border? And is it a lot more than live around borders in continental Europe, or between US states, where rules similarly differ?

    Aren't you in danger of drawing general conclusions from annoyance amongst a pretty atypical sample?
    There are always ambiguities, and you live with them.

    Though I'd say that Mark Glendower Drakeford is looking increasingly prick-like. A couple of days ago he was jumping out of his underpants to open Garden Centres before everybody else, and now a slight relaxation in England is an existential threat to all the Celts.

    Some borders run through houses and pubs eg isn't there one where you changed rooms in the pub for later drinking hours?

    And was a border spanning barn how they raised criminal money for IRA terrorists?
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689

    Just watched a report on ITV Wales from Saltney on the English border and the border runs through an estate thereby creating different rules for opposite neighbours

    Early signs of resentment from the Welsh residents that the English residents can enjoy the nearby park and they cannot

    Also one of our neighbours runs a business based in England and he has started back at work today even though he has 30 miles to the English border then returns into Wales at the end of his day

    Frankly I do not see the Welsh government being able to hold their advice more than a week or so

    Nonsense. Police are sensible and will not get involved in the few grey areas like this. But they can police the blatant idiots who travel from Mersey side to Gwynedd or Birmigham to Ceredigion - no grey area - no debate. Fine them and send them home
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    edited May 2020

    stodge said:

    As an aside, I don't know if betting shops would be classed as "non essential retail" or "leisure activity" but I imagine a simultaneous resumption of racing and re-opening of betting shops would be the BHA's aim on June 1st.

    Having glanced through the Recovery Strategy, I note no mention of takeaways or restaurants and if/when they can open (and how) and the language has changed from "actively encouraged" to "should travel to work if their workplace is open". The latter will keep many stuck because though they may wish to work their workplace won't be available.

    Takeaways never had to close. I think HMG was a bit surprised so many did. (You may recall there was even talk of "proper" restaurants converting to takeaway/delivery.) We should note that chefs were among occupations listed with a high Covid-19 fatality rate which might suggest problems with social distancing in kitchens, though I've not read any analysis.
    Interesting - Takeaway was banned in Guernsey because of the challenges of social distancing in kitchens.
    Customers can be as bad. In my fish and chip shop today was a twat in a hat who instead of stepping back outside after ordering spent 10 minutes speaking loudly while pacing up and down the shop, thus filling the air with his saliva, we hope virus-free. I'd have challenged him were it not for my profound physical cowardice.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
    No party has won a third term in the White House since 1988.

    Although that's a sample size of three, and on two of those three occasions the incumbent party has won the popular vote.
    1988 was the only time since 1948 a party has won more than 2 terms in the White House.

    The popular vote is also irrelevant, the EC decides the presidency
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    edited May 2020
    Andy_JS said:
    To say the "peak" was the 8th, on the basis of the daily data, but to completely ignore the 7-day average that puts the peak much later, is I think misleading.

    Why are people so invested in the peak being the 8th rather than later?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:
    People are really committed to making the 8th the peak.

    Literally any other bucketing of data makes it the 15th/16th.

    It doesn't even change the message much. But all it takes is a single death being added to the 15th and they'll all need to start talking about the double peak.
    That might actually mean Sweden is on a plateau rather than a decline due to the lagginess of its data. (I think it probably is).
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
    No party has won a third term in the White House since 1988.

    Although that's a sample size of three, and on two of those three occasions the incumbent party has won the popular vote.
    1988 was the only time since 1948 a party has won more than 2 terms in the White House.

    The popular vote is also irrelevant, the EC decides the presidency
    I agree you'd bet on the insurgent rather than incumbent party when the two term limit is reached.

    However, it's by no means a foregone conclusion. Whilst I appreciate the electoral college is key, the fact the incumbent party won the popular vote in 2000 and 2016 is simply indicative of the fact that those were very close elections that could easily have gone either way.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,423
    HYUFD said:
    I’m suddenly liking Boris Johnson a lot more knowing that thanks to him we can still travel to France.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:
    I’m suddenly liking Boris Johnson a lot more knowing that thanks to him we can still travel to France.
    An opportunity for Liz Truss to strike a deal on cheese supplies?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    RobD said:

    MattW said:

    RobD said:

    MattW said:

    That's great news.

    All I need now is an Official official source.

    We have been squeaky clean, and have lots of Key Workers.
    Is it good news? They can only meet with a single client in total. Not just a single client at a time.
    That's not clear from the Tweet; that's why I need a bit more info.
    I think in the document it says you can meet one person from outside your household. This applies both ways, so one of the two can't go and meet twenty, for example.
    That is where we need clarity.

    In the doc I interpret it as "one person outside your household at one time".

    To me that is the logical meaning, as the aim is to allow PTs to PT, and the other interpretation (one nominated person ever) is not consistent with that aim.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    VP Pence might have something to say about that as might Joe Kennedy III, the likely next Senator from Massachusetts, both likely to run in 2024

    Do you think Trump and Pence have a "deal" - eight years of loyalty in exchange for the active support of Trump in 2024?

    Pence will be 63 in 2024 so plenty young enough to run for two terms but will the GOP back him then or will they look elsewhere (Nikki Haley?)
    No party has won a third term in the White House since 1988.

    Although that's a sample size of three, and on two of those three occasions the incumbent party has won the popular vote.
    1988 was the only time since 1948 a party has won more than 2 terms in the White House.

    The popular vote is also irrelevant, the EC decides the presidency
    I agree you'd bet on the insurgent rather than incumbent party when the two term limit is reached.

    However, it's by no means a foregone conclusion. Whilst I appreciate the electoral college is key, the fact the incumbent party won the popular vote in 2000 and 2016 is simply indicative of the fact that those were very close elections that could easily have gone either way.
    Well that is true and 1960 and 1968 and 1976 were close elections too
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,423

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:
    I’m suddenly liking Boris Johnson a lot more knowing that thanks to him we can still travel to France.
    An opportunity for Liz Truss to strike a deal on cheese supplies?
    That* is a disgrace!

    *Comment.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Didn't IDS make a similar address in the run up to the Iraq war?

    https://twitter.com/DehennaDavison/status/1259885015502127104
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited May 2020
    Interestingly quite a few of the Conservative voting Brexit supporters in North East seats I have on Facebook are now posting anti-Boris and anti-government memes. Obviously its not being reflected in the polls but it’s interesting.

    It’s alright though because @HYUFD knows what they think all the way from Epping.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:
    I’m suddenly liking Boris Johnson a lot more knowing that thanks to him we can still travel to France.
    An opportunity for Liz Truss to strike a deal on cheese supplies?
    And open up pork markets.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Starmer statement on BBC 1.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,423

    Didn't IDS make a similar address in the run up to the Iraq war?

    https://twitter.com/DehennaDavison/status/1259885015502127104

    I thought the LOTO had a right of reply to Prime Ministerial broadcasts?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Didn't IDS make a similar address in the run up to the Iraq war?

    https://twitter.com/DehennaDavison/status/1259885015502127104

    Right of reply, it's happened in the past.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Didn't IDS make a similar address in the run up to the Iraq war?

    https://twitter.com/DehennaDavison/status/1259885015502127104

    Yes its quite standard to get a right of reply as LOTO - and its far lower scale and will have a fraction of the audience. Honestly absurd to fret about it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    ydoethur said:

    Didn't IDS make a similar address in the run up to the Iraq war?

    https://twitter.com/DehennaDavison/status/1259885015502127104

    I thought the LOTO had a right of reply to Prime Ministerial broadcasts?
    They do, the quality of the 2019 Tory intake leaves a lot to be desired, apart from Aaron Bell of course.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020

    Interestingly quite a few of the Conservative voting Brexit supporters in North East seats I have on Facebook are now posting anti-Boris and anti-government memes. Obviously its not being reflected in the polls but it’s interesting.

    It’s alright though because @HYUFD knows what they think all the way from Epping.

    I know what the polling says and that is the Tories are on 49% in the latest poll and Leavers support the new lockdown rules whatever your Northern anecdotes are telling you

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1259504246342418433?s=19

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1259757225624711168?s=19
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited May 2020
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:
    I’m suddenly liking Boris Johnson a lot more knowing that thanks to him we can still travel to France.
    An opportunity for Liz Truss to strike a deal on cheese supplies?
    That* is a disgrace!

    *Comment.
    There are enough cheeses in the UK to let the poor dear try a different one every day for nearly 2 years.

    Another metromedia individual needing broader horizons. :-)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,423
    edited May 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Didn't IDS make a similar address in the run up to the Iraq war?

    https://twitter.com/DehennaDavison/status/1259885015502127104

    I thought the LOTO had a right of reply to Prime Ministerial broadcasts?
    They do, the quality of the 2019 Tory intake leaves a lot to be desired, apart from Aaron Bell of course.
    The Tory intake at least has a decent Price?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Beth Rigby - Boris to take questions about the lap-down...

    Cricky, what has Boris been up to.
This discussion has been closed.