I see we're at the stage where we hardly blink an eye when the government floats major policy and public health decisions via tabloid.
Narked they got it out before Sturgeon some?
You seem to be under the misapprehension that she does policy via the redtops a la Tories. She is a real politician and delivers her policy direct to the public, unlike the buffoon.
On a personal note, I’m pretty disgusted by the manner in which the government has avoided acknowledging its gross error on care homes, despite it being very clear that they are aware of it.
I hope you and others find justice at the future inquiry on this one
There ought to be resignations long before then. It is negligence - if not worse. A true scandal.
If, as reported, this “easing” is simply to be able to go out to exercise as much as you want and maintain social distancing - whilst the lockdown continues - then it’s not really much of an easing.
Plenty of people have already ditched the one hour a day rule - like me. This just means if you stop to eat a picnic or have a sunbathe you can’t be pinched by the rozzers.
This Government is following public opinion, not leading it.
As throughout this crisis.
There is no one hour a day rule. There was a statement by a politician. The legal regulations say otherwise. Lifting a non-existent restriction is almost Brownian in its chicanery.
I’d never heard of this supposed rule before this morning. Since I couldn’t do a supermarket shop where I live in an hour, I’d have ignored it even if I knew of it.
There isn’t such a rule. Never has been. Some Minister - Gove I think - may have said something along these lines. But we don’t yet live in a country where what a Minister says becomes a rule. Thank God.
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work. ......
The problem that the government has now is that "scientific advice" is no longer seen as impartial. That vanished when Dominic Cummings was allowed to attend and influence the SAGE group meetings. Government decisions now are entirely political - ie, made with the intention of influencing party political advantage and the interests of Tory donors.
No the world is looking at their own countries and thinking what to do next. The UK has a very weird narcissistic view of itself, the rest of the world dont spend 70% of time on their own country, 20% thinking about us and 10% thinking about the rest of the world.
If people are looking at other countries they are probably looking at US, China, South Korea and Germany for very different reasons.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Questioning the government approach and manipulation of data is not ‘party political’. I do not buy the latest spin.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Very well said.
No, not well said at all. Large parts of the government response has been absolutely lamentable, and the excuses listed do not excuse it. The government needs to be held to account for it's failures in one of the most serious peacetime crisis that this country has ever faced. They were asleep on the job, and if ever there were an example of why a lazy oaf like Boris Johnson was not appropriate as a PM this has proved it. The only people who wish to excuse it are the fanbois of Boris who don't want to admit he is hopeless.
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work.
Outside that things are more difficult. Where are our 4k+ new cases coming from? Where are the weak points? Public transport? Supermarkets? Care both residential and in the home? Hospitals? I have not seen any detailed analysis of this and it must be key.
David, where have we heard that "evidence led" and based on scientific advice" bollox before. It is obvious they are thinking about cash and their popularity when they come to show public the books and tax increases etc, these chancers do not give a toss about anything other than themselves and saving their own skins.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Reading this site you would think that the Government were deliberately trying to kill people.
The Prime Minister simply has to get easing right at the first attempt. He will get no second chance.
I wish that were true, but it ignores the reality of BoZo's career.
He has had any number of spectacular failures, each of which has been rewarded with a promotion.
Funny, I don't seem to recall the "spectacular failure" of Boris's two terms as London Mayor? Or did I miss the reports of his tenure causing London to cease to be one of the world's pre-eminent multicultural cities and, under his rule, slide into the Thames?
Your unalloyed loathing of the man does cause you to retweet the most ridiculous things.
Clearly furlough will be extended past June, that is not in doubt - it is whether the terms of furlough will be changed and if so how they change.
If most of the restrictions are lifted by July it seems fair to reduce the scope of the furlough scheme, Im not sure why that would be controversial? Many will still need help but probably not 8m or whatever the number for April was.
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work. ......
The problem that the government has now is that "scientific advice" is no longer seen as impartial. That vanished when Dominic Cummings was allowed to attend and influence the SAGE group meetings. Government decisions now are entirely political - ie, made with the intention of influencing party political advantage and the interests of Tory donors.
The reality is that these are in fact political decisions, weighing one set of potential bad outcomes (an increase in the infection rate) against others (the collapse of the economy). But they will want to emphasise the scientific input as they have done throughout and that will set the parameters of what they do.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
You have a conveniently short memory regarding stats. Do you not recall.your mates Brown and Blair announcing and re announcing the same money to.make it soumd like the Govt was spending even more zillions than they actually were. The Press caught on eventually.
I'm not expecting a significant lifting of restrictions for a while yet. I think they will want to be confident that R is at or below 0.5 before they do this. Johnson knows he was late to impose the lockdown, that his tardiness has cost lives, and the guilt from this will steer to a cautious approach now IMO. A cool and calculating assessment of where the main political risk lies - which is in ending up with a materially worse death toll than any other large European country - also steers to a cautious approach. There are levers to pull in response to the economic damage. Not so much for the deaths. So I sense that health will trump the economy in the thinking at this point.
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work.
Outside that things are more difficult. Where are our 4k+ new cases coming from? Where are the weak points? Public transport? Supermarkets? Care both residential and in the home? Hospitals? I have not seen any detailed analysis of this and it must be key.
I continually asked this question about Spain and Italy when their new cases were around 4-5K 7 weeks into lockdown and was told it was families and lag.
Yes but that doesn't make sense does it? Unless that family is then interacting with the outer world in a way that allows it to spread further anyone in the family who is going to be infected will be infected much more quickly than that. Until we know where those cases are coming from we don't have a basis on which to assess the risks.
I know your point is more that there's a need to identify the current continuing spread, rather than asking what those vectors are, but there are a few obvious ones: - Health care workers - Social care workers (maybe particularly given lack of PPE) - Supermarket staff - All the people flouting lockdown - Teachers (one brother in law is a teacher in a private school and still going in part time to teach key-workers' - many of whom are doctors - children) - Construction workers (other two brothers-in-law are site managers on active sites and, despite best efforts - including banning from site subcontractors not following the site rules - can't enforce social distancing all the time) - Farmers (we live near farms and there doesn't seem to be a lot of social distancing going on, although we may be observing family groups)
Say Rt in all these groups is significantly reduced due to precautions, that's fine, but the Rt for those infected in these groups passing it on to their families is presumably still high (pretty much determined by lived-with family size, I guess)
On a personal note, I’m pretty disgusted by the manner in which the government has avoided acknowledging its gross error on care homes, despite it being very clear that they are aware of it.
I hope you and others find justice at the future inquiry on this one
There ought to be resignations long before then. It is negligence - if not worse. A true scandal.
If, as reported, this “easing” is simply to be able to go out to exercise as much as you want and maintain social distancing - whilst the lockdown continues - then it’s not really much of an easing.
Plenty of people have already ditched the one hour a day rule - like me. This just means if you stop to eat a picnic or have a sunbathe you can’t be pinched by the rozzers.
This Government is following public opinion, not leading it.
As throughout this crisis.
There is no one hour a day rule. There was a statement by a politician. The legal regulations say otherwise. Lifting a non-existent restriction is almost Brownian in its chicanery.
I’d never heard of this supposed rule before this morning. Since I couldn’t do a supermarket shop where I live in an hour, I’d have ignored it even if I knew of it.
There isn’t such a rule. Never has been. Some Minister - Gove I think - may have said something along these lines. But we don’t yet live in a country where what a Minister says becomes a rule. Thank God.
My walks take an average of 2 hours, sometimes 3.
I'm the same. And the walks are in woods and on farm roads in glorious isolation. Its kept me (relatively) sane.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
You have a conveniently short memory regarding stats. Do you not recall.your mates Brown and Blair announcing and re announcing the same money to.make it soumd like the Govt was spending even more zillions than they actually were. The Press caught on eventually.
Clearly furlough will be extended past June, that is not in doubt - it is whether the terms of furlough will be changed and if so how they change.
If most of the restrictions are lifted by July it seems fair to reduce the scope of the furlough scheme, Im not sure why that would be controversial? Many will still need help but probably not 8m or whatever the number for April was.
It is essential they keep the scheme going for pubs, restaurants, hotels etc. Or we will come out of this with nowhere to socialise.
The name given to VE Day in Germany is "Tag der Befreiung" meaning "Day of liberation", which sums up the view here very well. It was the day that the evil of the Nazi government was removed. There are many sad personal stories of soldiers and civillians who died, people who were also victims os the Nazi regime even though they were fighting for them.
Tomorrow is a public holiday in Berlin (not the rest of the country) and only for this year because of the 75th anniversary.
Calling it the Day of Liberation is a bit odd when you consider what happened to Berlin between 1945 and 1989. But from our point of view, it is right that we celebrate our triumph over Nazism, not the German people. We should also have a holiday to celebrate beating that other scourge of the 20th century - Marxism (VM day?). November 9th - the day the Berlin Wall came down - is probably the best day to do that.
Certainly a better day for a holiday than the second May Bank Holiday. Nobody knows what that is there for (Whitsun, apparently).
Not just Berlin but the whole of eastern Europe. From one malicious dictatorship to another all the way to 1989. I still find it staggering that so many thought that that brutal regime was admirable or anything other than contemptible in any sense. The fact that apparently clever people were apologists for such evil shows that there is nothing new about fake news or alternative facts.
But they had good intentions!
As a relative of mine, who lived through both regimes put it - "When you are being tortured in a cellar, do the collar tabs on the uniform really matter?"
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Very well said.
No, not well said at all. Large parts of the government response has been absolutely lamentable, and the excuses listed do not excuse it. The government needs to be held to account for it's failures in one of the most serious peacetime crisis that this country has ever faced. They were asleep on the job, and if ever there were an example of why a lazy oaf like Boris Johnson was not appropriate as a PM this has proved it. The only people who wish to excuse it are the fanbois of Boris who don't want to admit he is hopeless.
I think the PM is lazy, duplicitous, blustering and unreliable, voted specifically anti-Tory in the GE because of him, agree the government have made mistakes, yet still think the government response has been close to par - its very similar with the majority of our big neighbours with Germany far outperforming the rest.
Does that make me a fanbois? Or perhaps your sweeping generalisations dont reflect everyone else's reality?
Both the Nazis and Communists had plenty of adherents and apologists. The events of both 1945 and 1989 have shaped the world we know today yet we struggle to comprehend the enormity of them. I'll offer the thought Liberation Day is celebrated every year as a public holiday in the Channel Islands as it is in the likes of Denmark and the Netherlands.
My gripe this morning is percentages - if you told most people the economy will fall by 20% this year and rebound by 20% next year they'd think it would be back where it was.
No - if you start at 100, fall 20% in year one and rise 20% in year two you are at 96. Getting back to 100 would mean a rise of 25% in year two. Using percentages is so much spin and disinformation or it assumes a greater mathematical acumen than I suspect generally exists.
Lies, damn lies, statistics, percentages and betting odds on in novice chases are the things Stodge does not believe in or do - this is not a complete list but suffices for this exercise.
Incidentally I've been saying all along that the UK governments fiscal response to this pandemic will never be paid back - it will be paid for via either a combination of printing money (AKA Quantitative Easing) and borrowing which will be rolled over and only interest will be paid on.
Seeing the Quantitative Easing figures today if I'm reading this right can someone confirm the BoE is doing £210 billion of Quantitative Easing so far this year and that's to start with there could be more? Source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing
its been a busy few days with work so not had much chance to even look at PB let alone post. But just wanted to say what a fantastic thread header Cyclefree wrote for the previous thread. Extremely well presented and informative.
Clearly furlough will be extended past June, that is not in doubt - it is whether the terms of furlough will be changed and if so how they change.
If most of the restrictions are lifted by July it seems fair to reduce the scope of the furlough scheme, Im not sure why that would be controversial? Many will still need help but probably not 8m or whatever the number for April was.
It is essential they keep the scheme going for pubs, restaurants, hotels etc. Or we will come out of this with nowhere to socialise.
Agreed. I think the changes will be two fold, a reduction in amount - either 60% or £2k maybe both instead of 80% and £2.5k - and secondly a reduction in scope, either listing specified industries like the above and/or introducing a responsibility on businesses to show the alternative to furlough is redundancy.
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work.
Outside that things are more difficult. Where are our 4k+ new cases coming from? Where are the weak points? Public transport? Supermarkets? Care both residential and in the home? Hospitals? I have not seen any detailed analysis of this and it must be key.
I continually asked this question about Spain and Italy when their new cases were around 4-5K 7 weeks into lockdown and was told it was families and lag.
Yes but that doesn't make sense does it? Unless that family is then interacting with the outer world in a way that allows it to spread further anyone in the family who is going to be infected will be infected much more quickly than that. Until we know where those cases are coming from we don't have a basis on which to assess the risks.
I know your point is more that there's a need to identify the current continuing spread, rather than asking what those vectors are, but there are a few obvious ones: - Health care workers - Social care workers (maybe particularly given lack of PPE) - Supermarket staff - All the people flouting lockdown - Teachers (one brother in law is a teacher in a private school and still going in part time to teach key-workers' - many of whom are doctors - children) - Construction workers (other two brothers-in-law are site managers on active sites and, despite best efforts - including banning from site subcontractors not following the site rules - can't enforce social distancing all the time) - Farmers (we live near farms and there doesn't seem to be a lot of social distancing going on, although we may be observing family groups)
Say Rt in all these groups is significantly reduced due to precautions, that's fine, but the Rt for those infected in these groups passing it on to their families is presumably still high (pretty much determined by lived-with family size, I guess)
I agree that common sense indicates that these are likely vectors but I have not seen any hard data other than the number of NHS staff infected which is apparently not out of line with the rest of the population. The Dundee Courier had the picture of 3 care home workers who had died of the virus yesterday but if there is evidence that they are more likely to get the virus I have not seen it despite their desperate shortage of PPE and training.
My sister is a teacher and has to wear something like PPE for working at the hub for key worker kids but very few turn up. Is there any evidence that teachers are becoming infected? We really don't have a clear picture how this virus spreads. That is our weakness in trying to decide what to do next.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
I too am supportive. The fact that the NHS has held up under the strain is a massive plus for the government.
However, if people are dying unnecessarily because of government errors regarding PPE, testing and timing the lockdown to perfection, all need calling out and reviewing to see if and why things did or did not go wrong.
P Tories are bemoaning criticism as partisan, yet when the government wilfully massaged the testing figures, it was a case that Matt had stuck one on the hapless Starmer. Boris, too, yesterday with one eye on his popularity trumped Starmer's excellent PMQ performance by hinting at an end to lockdown. Loads of stupid games are being played by all sides at a time when they shouldn't.
And don't get me started on Hancock slapping down Allin Khan
Darling on R4. A reminder of a time when Labour had proper front rank politicians.
No politician did more to lose Labour its Scottish seats.
He came seriously close to losing the Indyref.
I don't know what you are talking about David. Better Together was a colossus of a campaign, heroically reducing Scotland's natural 90% support for Indy down to a mere 45%. It is a blueprint for how all political campaigning should be performed.
...
Sorry, I blacked out and Duncan Hothersall took over my body there.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
You have a conveniently short memory regarding stats. Do you not recall.your mates Brown and Blair announcing and re announcing the same money to.make it soumd like the Govt was spending even more zillions than they actually were. The Press caught on eventually.
Whataboutary.
Not at all. Labour span data for its own.political ends. you just want to avoid acknowledging a truth. It didnt bother you when Labour were doing it.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Maybe if they stopped lying all the time, admitted some mistakes and said they were doing their best then people may not be so cynical. Hard to believe anything they say due to the obvious lying and cheating on numbers etc. You just cannot trust a liar.
30 May for the diary. My memory of 1997 was finally knowing what multiple orgasm felt like.
I know this might be an unfashionable view, but I think you might be in for another one at the next election. Starmer has 4 years to show his professionalism and Johnson has 4 years to show his rank amateurism, which the public will become increasingly tired of. I don't particularly want a Labour government, but the Tory party needs a very large dose of disinfectant, as does the Republican Party in the US.
Starmer is no Blair, when Blair took over in 1994 he had a double digit lead, Starmer is over 10 points behind. Even John Smith was ahead when he took over in 1992.
At best he will scrape in with the LDs, he will not get a majority for Labour
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Very well said.
No, not well said at all. Large parts of the government response has been absolutely lamentable, and the excuses listed do not excuse it. The government needs to be held to account for it's failures in one of the most serious peacetime crisis that this country has ever faced. They were asleep on the job, and if ever there were an example of why a lazy oaf like Boris Johnson was not appropriate as a PM this has proved it. The only people who wish to excuse it are the fanbois of Boris who don't want to admit he is hopeless.
The response has been in line with other nations of our population density.
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work.
Outside that things are more difficult. Where are our 4k+ new cases coming from? Where are the weak points? Public transport? Supermarkets? Care both residential and in the home? Hospitals? I have not seen any detailed analysis of this and it must be key.
David, where have we heard that "evidence led" and based on scientific advice" bollox before. It is obvious they are thinking about cash and their popularity when they come to show public the books and tax increases etc, these chancers do not give a toss about anything other than themselves and saving their own skins.
I think that is overly cynical Malcolm. And even if it wasn't getting the best possible outcome is in their own selfish self interest.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Maybe if they stopped lying all the time, admitted some mistakes and said they were doing their best then people may not be so cynical. Hard to believe anything they say due to the obvious lying and cheating on numbers etc. You just cannot trust a liar.
Calling it the Day of Liberation is a bit odd when you consider what happened to Berlin between 1945 and 1989. But from our point of view, it is right that we celebrate our triumph over Nazism, not the German people. We should also have a holiday to celebrate beating that other scourge of the 20th century - Marxism (VM day?). November 9th - the day the Berlin Wall came down - is probably the best day to do that.
Certainly a better day for a holiday than the second May Bank Holiday. Nobody knows what that is there for (Whitsun, apparently).
Marxism Defeat Day? The tankies would explode.... not to mention quite a people in university common rooms.
Clearly furlough will be extended past June, that is not in doubt - it is whether the terms of furlough will be changed and if so how they change.
If most of the restrictions are lifted by July it seems fair to reduce the scope of the furlough scheme, Im not sure why that would be controversial? Many will still need help but probably not 8m or whatever the number for April was.
It is essential they keep the scheme going for pubs, restaurants, hotels etc. Or we will come out of this with nowhere to socialise.
The issue come July will be that some industries will be able to continue working and others still won't be able to.
How you square that circle while incentivising those who could work back to work is going to be an impossible task.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Maybe if they stopped lying all the time, admitted some mistakes and said they were doing their best then people may not be so cynical. Hard to believe anything they say due to the obvious lying and cheating on numbers etc. You just cannot trust a liar.
You must be seeing different things to me. Watched a nearly hour long interview with Hancock yesterday where he quite openly said that the government was doing their best, that there had been mistakes and there would be time to reflect on lessons to learn afterwards.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Maybe if they stopped lying all the time, admitted some mistakes and said they were doing their best then people may not be so cynical. Hard to believe anything they say due to the obvious lying and cheating on numbers etc. You just cannot trust a liar.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Very well said.
No, not well said at all. Large parts of the government response has been absolutely lamentable, and the excuses listed do not excuse it. The government needs to be held to account for it's failures in one of the most serious peacetime crisis that this country has ever faced. They were asleep on the job, and if ever there were an example of why a lazy oaf like Boris Johnson was not appropriate as a PM this has proved it. The only people who wish to excuse it are the fanbois of Boris who don't want to admit he is hopeless.
I think the PM is lazy, duplicitous, blustering and unreliable, voted specifically anti-Tory in the GE because of him, agree the government have made mistakes, yet still think the government response has been close to par - its very similar with the majority of our big neighbours with Germany far outperforming the rest.
Does that make me a fanbois? Or perhaps your sweeping generalisations dont reflect everyone else's reality?
I would agree to some extent. Again I am not a Boris fan but think that in most areas the Government response has been the best that could be expected given the advice they are receiving.
But there are at least a couple of areas where their response/decisions have been so poor as to be criminal. The treatment of care homes and allowing untested admittance to those returning from hospital is one area. The failure to take control of PHE and stop their idiocy over testing labs was another.
Someone needs to answer for these failures as they were both predictable and avoidable.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Questioning the government approach and manipulation of data is not ‘party political’. I do not buy the latest spin.
Manipulating data - if true - is not necessarily nefarious spin. The government is solely concerned with getting us out of this. It has a fiendishly difficult job to do - and needs to act fast. It has to get folk back to work before the country becomes bankrupt, folk that have worringly become accustomed to being paid to stay at home.
In doing this it will no doubt have all sorts of experts over this - including the economic nudge unit. If they manipulate or selectively use data to nudge the economy back to functionality this would have my full support. Indeed, I would criticise them if they didn`t do so. Transparency is not always good.
On easing the lockdown, it doesn't look to me as if the government's own 5 tests have yet been met. In yesterday's official data there were 649 deaths, and of around 57,000 people tested more than 10%, over 6,000, were positive - this may be an improving picture, but it's very slow. On international data comparisons - of course they are not reliable yet. But I'm pretty confident that if the UK data were similar to, say, Germany's, neither the government nor its supporters on here would be quite so critical of the validity of the data; rather, I suspect they would be celebrating our success.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Very well said.
No. We should not be suspending party politics or criticism of the government just because the PM wants to do his Churchill impersonation act. We didn’t do this in war-time. We shouldn’t do it now.
Clearly furlough will be extended past June, that is not in doubt - it is whether the terms of furlough will be changed and if so how they change.
If most of the restrictions are lifted by July it seems fair to reduce the scope of the furlough scheme, Im not sure why that would be controversial? Many will still need help but probably not 8m or whatever the number for April was.
Reducing the scope is fine if people in some sectors really can go back to work. Reducing the amount given to people when they can’t is nonsensical. If a pub is shut, what is gained by reducing furlough to 60% of wages - other than further financial hardship for the employees?
It looks punitive and harsh because it is. And it achieves nothing.
Darling on R4. A reminder of a time when Labour had proper front rank politicians.
No politician did more to lose Labour its Scottish seats.
He came seriously close to losing the Indyref.
I don't know what you are talking about David. Better Together was a colossus of a campaign, heroically reducing Scotland's natural 90% support for Indy down to a mere 45%. It is a blueprint for how all political campaigning should be performed.
...
Sorry, I blacked out and Duncan Hothersall took over my body there.
No won with 55% of the vote in 2014, if it had ran as crap a campaign as Remain did in 2016 it would have lost
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Maybe if they stopped lying all the time, admitted some mistakes and said they were doing their best then people may not be so cynical. Hard to believe anything they say due to the obvious lying and cheating on numbers etc. You just cannot trust a liar.
There are none so blond as those who cannot see.
Depending on the target that could be a brilliant typo
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work. ......
The problem that the government has now is that "scientific advice" is no longer seen as impartial. That vanished when Dominic Cummings was allowed to attend and influence the SAGE group meetings. Government decisions now are entirely political - ie, made with the intention of influencing party political advantage and the interests of Tory donors.
The reality is that these are in fact political decisions, weighing one set of potential bad outcomes (an increase in the infection rate) against others (the collapse of the economy). But they will want to emphasise the scientific input as they have done throughout and that will set the parameters of what they do.
That is what I was saying, David, but perhaps not so innocently. The government´s decisions are all politically driven, and "scientific advice" is just a cloak for their spin.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Reading this site you would think that the Government were deliberately trying to kill people.
Yes, you would Nerys. It is disgusting, verging on psychotic.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Very well said.
No, not well said at all. Large parts of the government response has been absolutely lamentable, and the excuses listed do not excuse it. The government needs to be held to account for it's failures in one of the most serious peacetime crisis that this country has ever faced. They were asleep on the job, and if ever there were an example of why a lazy oaf like Boris Johnson was not appropriate as a PM this has proved it. The only people who wish to excuse it are the fanbois of Boris who don't want to admit he is hopeless.
I think the PM is lazy, duplicitous, blustering and unreliable, voted specifically anti-Tory in the GE because of him, agree the government have made mistakes, yet still think the government response has been close to par - its very similar with the majority of our big neighbours with Germany far outperforming the rest.
Does that make me a fanbois? Or perhaps your sweeping generalisations dont reflect everyone else's reality?
I would agree to some extent. Again I am not a Boris fan but think that in most areas the Government response has been the best that could be expected given the advice they are receiving.
But there are at least a couple of areas where their response/decisions have been so poor as to be criminal. The treatment of care homes and allowing untested admittance to those returning from hospital is one area. The failure to take control of PHE and stop their idiocy over testing labs was another.
Someone needs to answer for these failures as they were both predictable and avoidable.
I concur those are mistakes, especially the former. The latter was harder, if the ministers had initially overruled the experts to bring in private sector firms it would have been reported as a scandal as well.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Reading this site you would think that the Government were deliberately trying to kill people.
No they are incompetently killing people deliberately.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Maybe if they stopped lying all the time, admitted some mistakes and said they were doing their best then people may not be so cynical. Hard to believe anything they say due to the obvious lying and cheating on numbers etc. You just cannot trust a liar.
You must be seeing different things to me. Watched a nearly hour long interview with Hancock yesterday where he quite openly said that the government was doing their best, that there had been mistakes and there would be time to reflect on lessons to learn afterwards.
I heard that too but it does not fit in with the smear campaign.
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work. ......
The problem that the government has now is that "scientific advice" is no longer seen as impartial. That vanished when Dominic Cummings was allowed to attend and influence the SAGE group meetings. Government decisions now are entirely political - ie, made with the intention of influencing party political advantage and the interests of Tory donors.
The reality is that these are in fact political decisions, weighing one set of potential bad outcomes (an increase in the infection rate) against others (the collapse of the economy). But they will want to emphasise the scientific input as they have done throughout and that will set the parameters of what they do.
That is what I was saying, David, but perhaps not so innocently. The government´s decisions are all politically driven, and "scientific advice" is just a cloak for their spin.
It's not a cloak, its parameters. So, for example, if having the schools go back is calculated to increase R above 1 it will not happen. If we can get quite a lot of economic activity whilst keeping R below 1 we will do it because the cost of not doing so is too high. That will mean more deaths but so does having people excessively isolated and not getting the normal treatment for other conditions.
30 May for the diary. My memory of 1997 was finally knowing what multiple orgasm felt like.
I know this might be an unfashionable view, but I think you might be in for another one at the next election. Starmer has 4 years to show his professionalism and Johnson has 4 years to show his rank amateurism, which the public will become increasingly tired of. I don't particularly want a Labour government, but the Tory party needs a very large dose of disinfectant, as does the Republican Party in the US.
Starmer is no Blair, when Blair took over in 1994 he had a double digit lead, Starmer is over 10 points behind. Even John Smith was ahead when he took over in 1992.
At best he will scrape in with the LDs, he will not get a majority for Labour
Scotland is a big problem for Labour. However, four years of Starmer appearing as Rumpole of the Bailey and Boris appearing like Bertie Wooster could change that.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Very well said.
No. We should not be suspending party politics or criticism of the government just because the PM wants to do his Churchill impersonation act. We didn’t do this in war-time. We shouldn’t do it now.
Clearly furlough will be extended past June, that is not in doubt - it is whether the terms of furlough will be changed and if so how they change.
If most of the restrictions are lifted by July it seems fair to reduce the scope of the furlough scheme, Im not sure why that would be controversial? Many will still need help but probably not 8m or whatever the number for April was.
Reducing the scope is fine if people in some sectors really can go back to work. Reducing the amount given to people when they can’t is nonsensical. If a pub is shut, what is gained by reducing furlough to 60% of wages - other than further financial hardship for the employees?
It looks punitive and harsh because it is. And it achieves nothing.
If it needs to be reduced Id very strongly prefer reducing the cap to 2k rather than the % - 2k is well above minimum wage.
For context, when we were discussing universal basic income in March before the govts scheme, I was proposing £1500, which was one of the highest if not the highest people argued for on here, most were in the £500-£1000 region.
Clearly furlough will be extended past June, that is not in doubt - it is whether the terms of furlough will be changed and if so how they change.
If most of the restrictions are lifted by July it seems fair to reduce the scope of the furlough scheme, Im not sure why that would be controversial? Many will still need help but probably not 8m or whatever the number for April was.
It is essential they keep the scheme going for pubs, restaurants, hotels etc. Or we will come out of this with nowhere to socialise.
The issue come July will be that some industries will be able to continue working and others still won't be able to.
How you square that circle while incentivising those who could work back to work is going to be an impossible task.
It is not that impossible.
On the assumption that some social distancing rules or advice will be in place:-
1. Those sectors where people can return to work full time can have furlough withdrawn gradually. 2. Those where some work can be done have reduced furlough - similar to the Swedish scheme. 3. And those sectors which cannot operate profitably (the hospitality trade - in the widest sense) continue to receive furlough payments.
For this last - and maybe others - I would add the option of one-off compensation payments for businesses in that sector so that they can shut if they want to and find alternative ways of making a living.
Darling on R4. A reminder of a time when Labour had proper front rank politicians.
No politician did more to lose Labour its Scottish seats.
Why? Gordon Brown's Labour easily won most seats in Scotland in 2010 and Darling led the winning No campaign in 2014.
It was only under Ed Miliband Labour lost its Scottish MPs
Up to your usual Scottish lack of knowledge. Miliband had nothing to do with other than being the dupe to follow tweedledee and tweedledum. Their supporting the Tories against the interests of Scotland was what did for them. They have no chance of any return until they realise that they are supposed to be a Scottish party and support independence, plus change almost every donkey they currently have as MSP's.
No. We should not be suspending party politics or criticism of the government just because the PM wants to do his Churchill impersonation act. We didn’t do this in war-time. We shouldn’t do it now.
Actually in war-time we did set aside party political differences and seek the best for the country. Both in WWII and in more recent wars such as Iraq and Afghanistan parties have tried to do the right thing for the country and not just think about party first.
There is absolutely room to criticise mistakes, there was then and there is now. But the criticism of the government should be because there is something appropriate to criticise not because the government is led by a party or politician that you dislike.
Wait, no, I tried reading it and gave up after he complained that we don't have a functioning free press, on the basis that they won't all write what he wants them to write.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Very well said.
No, not well said at all. Large parts of the government response has been absolutely lamentable, and the excuses listed do not excuse it. The government needs to be held to account for it's failures in one of the most serious peacetime crisis that this country has ever faced. They were asleep on the job, and if ever there were an example of why a lazy oaf like Boris Johnson was not appropriate as a PM this has proved it. The only people who wish to excuse it are the fanbois of Boris who don't want to admit he is hopeless.
I think the PM is lazy, duplicitous, blustering and unreliable, voted specifically anti-Tory in the GE because of him, agree the government have made mistakes, yet still think the government response has been close to par - its very similar with the majority of our big neighbours with Germany far outperforming the rest.
Does that make me a fanbois? Or perhaps your sweeping generalisations dont reflect everyone else's reality?
I would agree to some extent. Again I am not a Boris fan but think that in most areas the Government response has been the best that could be expected given the advice they are receiving.
But there are at least a couple of areas where their response/decisions have been so poor as to be criminal. The treatment of care homes and allowing untested admittance to those returning from hospital is one area. The failure to take control of PHE and stop their idiocy over testing labs was another.
Someone needs to answer for these failures as they were both predictable and avoidable.
I think it is the collision of government by spin (a fault for decades) with an actual crisis. Not in distant lands far away, but in Tescos on the High Street and down the pub.
The government simply is not set up to think of the country in such explicit and immediate terms while putting what is best for the governing party to one side.
I too am supportive. The fact that the NHS has held up under the strain is a massive plus for the government.
However, if people are dying unnecessarily because of government errors regarding PPE, testing and timing the lockdown to perfection, all need calling out and reviewing to see if and why things did or did not go wrong.
P Tories are bemoaning criticism as partisan, yet when the government wilfully massaged the testing figures, it was a case that Matt had stuck one on the hapless Starmer. Boris, too, yesterday with one eye on his popularity trumped Starmer's excellent PMQ performance by hinting at an end to lockdown. Loads of stupid games are being played by all sides at a time when they shouldn't.
And don't get me started on Hancock slapping down Allin Khan
This is the bearpit where politically interested people gather to talk politics. Democracy hasn't been suspended and neither have comment, opinion, analysis and scrutiny.
I expect there to be a full and open enquiry about what has happened in due time and IF there is clear evidence Government action or inaction deliberately caused unnecessary suffering and death I would expect Ministers to accept responsibility and resign.
I also accept it was initially a fast developing situation and I will accept genuine mistakes made in the heat of the moment - avoidable with hindsight maybe but that's often the case.
If we had a non-Conservative Government in power now, it would have its defenders and its detractors - that's the nature of the political beast.
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Reading this site you would think that the Government were deliberately trying to kill people.
No they are incompetently killing people deliberately.
You cannt kill people deliberately due to.incompetence. it is a non sequitur. Your comment is nevertheless as despicablec as those by bigjohnowls
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work.
Outside that things are more difficult. Where are our 4k+ new cases coming from? Where are the weak points? Public transport? Supermarkets? Care both residential and in the home? Hospitals? I have not seen any detailed analysis of this and it must be key.
David, where have we heard that "evidence led" and based on scientific advice" bollox before. It is obvious they are thinking about cash and their popularity when they come to show public the books and tax increases etc, these chancers do not give a toss about anything other than themselves and saving their own skins.
I think that is overly cynical Malcolm. And even if it wasn't getting the best possible outcome is in their own selfish self interest.
David, they need to stop the constant lying , admit when they get it wrong etc. Afraid they are so devious my first thought is they are lying and find it hard to believe they are not and are not looking after themselves. A bit of honesty might help them.
On easing the lockdown, it doesn't look to me as if the government's own 5 tests have yet been met. In yesterday's official data there were 649 deaths, and of around 57,000 people tested more than 10%, over 6,000, were positive - this may be an improving picture, but it's very slow. On international data comparisons - of course they are not reliable yet. But I'm pretty confident that if the UK data were similar to, say, Germany's, neither the government nor its supporters on here would be quite so critical of the validity of the data; rather, I suspect they would be celebrating our success.
Yes, but when did those 649 die?
Assigning the deaths to the date when they actually occurred is crucial (and omitted by the majority of the press).
The number of deaths in hospitals in England is down from 874 on 8th April to 281 on 30th April (the most recent date for which the data can yet be viewed as reliable)
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Reading this site you would think that the Government were deliberately trying to kill people.
Yes, you would Nerys. It is disgusting, verging on psychotic.
They are not trying to kill people, but nothing they are doing or have done has been done without an eye on how it plays for their own party advantage.
Darling on R4. A reminder of a time when Labour had proper front rank politicians.
No politician did more to lose Labour its Scottish seats.
He came seriously close to losing the Indyref.
I don't know what you are talking about David. Better Together was a colossus of a campaign, heroically reducing Scotland's natural 90% support for Indy down to a mere 45%. It is a blueprint for how all political campaigning should be performed.
...
Sorry, I blacked out and Duncan Hothersall took over my body there.
No won with 55% of the vote in 2014, if it had ran as crap a campaign as Remain did in 2016 it would have lost
I played a very active part in that campaign. It was awful. Darling could not really bring himself to say anything good about the UK because it was led by the Coalition. He was entirely negative in his approach, characterised by the SNP as the "too wee, too stupid" argument. They had a point. His performance in the debates against Salmond really scared me, I thought he had lost.
Only Ruth Davidson with a bit of Gordon Brown towards the end was British and genuinely proud of it. Only the good sense of the Scottish people saved the Union.
Random question to help get a better picture of where we are. For those tracking the numbers in detail can anyone give an estimate of which day pre the peak we are closest to in number of infections (not deaths, hospitalisations) currently.
I.e. 7 May is closest to 7 March (or whatever date) in terms of number of infections?
On topic the relaxation is going to be "evidence led" and "based on scientific advice". That is going to recognise that infection outside is unlikely unless there is prolonged close contact (no snogging in the park). It means establishments that are outside should be able to open, beer gardens, garden centres, farmers markets, etc. It means that those who work outside (eg on construction sites) can go to work.
Outside that things are more difficult. Where are our 4k+ new cases coming from? Where are the weak points? Public transport? Supermarkets? Care both residential and in the home? Hospitals? I have not seen any detailed analysis of this and it must be key.
David, where have we heard that "evidence led" and based on scientific advice" bollox before. It is obvious they are thinking about cash and their popularity when they come to show public the books and tax increases etc, these chancers do not give a toss about anything other than themselves and saving their own skins.
I think that is overly cynical Malcolm. And even if it wasn't getting the best possible outcome is in their own selfish self interest.
David, they need to stop the constant lying , admit when they get it wrong etc. Afraid they are so devious my first thought is they are lying and find it hard to believe they are not and are not looking after themselves. A bit of honesty might help them.
I think that there has been too much emphasis on we did what seemed right on the evidence we had at the time and not enough on well, if we knew what we know now... On that I agree.
The Government will also be looking at the damage the lockdown is doing to peoples health. Whilst the large majority are enjoying a nice paid holiday at home, many people are becoing desperate. I am a frequenter of a local betting shop and would often go in there just to chat to some of the old fellas whose lives revolved around the betting shop. It was like a social club, free cups of tea, chat about racing, sport,old times. What are these chaps doing now? A couple of them were widowers and the betting shop gave them a reason for getting up each day. I am in regular contact with 3 of the chaps and they are so desperate now for a return to "normal" life. What I took from the ONS figures this week was the huge number of excess deaths which were not attributed to Covid 19. Could this be people just giving up. I have seen it before in long term marriages, when one partner dies the other can die very quickly afterwards not because of a specific illness but of a broken heart because they can't see the point in living anymore. I have a feeling this may be happening.
its been a busy few days with work so not had much chance to even look at PB let alone post. But just wanted to say what a fantastic thread header Cyclefree wrote for the previous thread. Extremely well presented and informative.
PB at its best.
I agree. Just read it. Very good. As was Alastair's WW2 one.
Not the faintest chance I will use this App and I know others who feel the same.
I'd consider the Apple / Google one if it's proven it doesn't store data.
I've seen a lot of that view on facebook. Makes me very sad.
We need this app. We need it to work. We need as many people to use it as possible, despite their distrust and disgust of the Tories.
Otherwise people die.
The data is only stored on your own device until the point at which you choose to contact the NHS using it.
No, that's how the Apple/Google solution works. The NHS one works with a big database of names and locations behind it.
No, the data of who you have contacted is only stored on the device until you report positive. At that point it is shared and those people are pinged.
Records of contacts will be stored on phones. If a user comes down with coronavirus symptoms they report this in the app. That data is then shared with a health service database and their anonymous ID matched with other phones they have come into contact with.
Not with the NHS solution, only with the A/G solution. the NHS solution is using a central database of contacts.
Saying that contacts are stored on phones is not saying that contacts are *only* stored on phones. The language used is deliberately vague.
"You won't share anything until you need to make a report, with all the data remaining on your phone until you need to report that you're having COVID-19 symptoms"
Doesn't sound vague to me.
They refer to sharing with others, those with whom you've been in contact. They are also correct that the data remains on your phone.
What they're deliberately not saying is that it also resides on the government servers at all times. The company who have been writing the software are a big database company, with apparently zero experience of writing mobile apps.
I'm generally supportive of the government, but they've screwed this one up.
No, the quote is from an article on a technology website which is quite explicit that the data will not leave your phone. Your idea that "won't share anything" means you are still sharing it with the government is wrong. The data does not reside on the government servers. Quite apart from the civil liberties aspect, there are lots of technical reasons why you simply wouldn't do this.
In that case, why would you have a big data company with little experience on mobile apps write the thing?
From a technical standpoint, the way you'd do it if you wanted a contract tracking app is exactly what A and G have done, with a long list of anonymised ID number pairs and no other information. The way you'd do it if you want to track locations and interactions of known people in a large central database is the way NHSX have done it. Now, that's not to say that knowing about the location of infection hotspots is a bad thing, but there's a lot being said by omission about what the NHSX app does and how it works.
Given the abject health failures of this government, if any World War Two comparisons are to be made I trust we can all agree that Boris Johnson is this era’s Neville Chamberlain?
No. We should not be suspending party politics or criticism of the government just because the PM wants to do his Churchill impersonation act. We didn’t do this in war-time. We shouldn’t do it now.
Actually in war-time we did set aside party political differences and seek the best for the country. Both in WWII and in more recent wars such as Iraq and Afghanistan parties have tried to do the right thing for the country and not just think about party first.
There is absolutely room to criticise mistakes, there was then and there is now. But the criticism of the government should be because there is something appropriate to criticise not because the government is led by a party or politician that you dislike.
That is simply not true.
During WW2 we changed Prime Minister twice, there were by-elections and votes of no confidence in Parliament.
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, while soldiers may have been supported, party politics continued and there was very severe criticism of what the government was doing, sometimes from its own members and supporters.
My criticism of the government is based on what it has done or is failing to do. Over testing, over PPE, over care homes, over its confused messaging and over its initial economic help.
I appreciate that it is a very difficult situation and that it may well be trying its best. But it does not get a free pass from criticism just because this makes its supporters feel uncomfortable. Some of the criticism also needs to be levelled at previous governments who it appears failed to implement the lessons learned from its pandemic exercises (Hunt and May, for instance).
Mr. Jonathan, do you actually disagree with me about the statistics?
Do you disagree with my criticisms over the app/care home situation? Or that the Chinese cover up made things significantly worse in countries such as the UK and France?
Or is it only the single pro-Government line in my post that you consider to perhaps be worthy of doubt?
I have lost patience with the way this government spins and manipulates data to serve its short term political ends and am depressed that people go along with it.
It is perfectly valid to discuss why our death count is so high, even if the government would prefer us not to.
The facts that the UK, esp England, is one of the highest density countries in Europe (only Netherlands and Belgium are higher) and our status as a major economic hub and our wealth allowing international travel and our cherishing of the liberal democracy ideals have to be primary factors as to why our death rate is high.
If I had been writing a book on which European countries would be most affected by a global pandemic I would have had UK as favourite.
I`m long pissed off that this dreadful situation, which the government is battling like crazy to get us out of, is being used by many to bash the government for party political reasons. I find it shocking and immoral.
Please lay off party politics. I don`t vote Conservative, but support them in what they are trying to do, as I would any party at this time. We are all in this together.
Reading this site you would think that the Government were deliberately trying to kill people.
No they are incompetently killing people deliberately.
30 May for the diary. My memory of 1997 was finally knowing what multiple orgasm felt like.
I know this might be an unfashionable view, but I think you might be in for another one at the next election. Starmer has 4 years to show his professionalism and Johnson has 4 years to show his rank amateurism, which the public will become increasingly tired of. I don't particularly want a Labour government, but the Tory party needs a very large dose of disinfectant, as does the Republican Party in the US.
Starmer is no Blair, when Blair took over in 1994 he had a double digit lead, Starmer is over 10 points behind. Even John Smith was ahead when he took over in 1992.
At best he will scrape in with the LDs, he will not get a majority for Labour
Scotland is a big problem for Labour. However, four years of Starmer appearing as Rumpole of the Bailey and Boris appearing like Bertie Wooster could change that.
Nothing in Westminster will matter for Scotland. Labour are seen as anti independence and Tories little helpers, both of these mean almost all of their voters have left for the sensible Scottish centre left party. Major major changes needed to reverse that including a bonfire of their nonentities.
No the world is looking at their own countries and thinking what to do next. The UK has a very weird narcissistic view of itself, the rest of the world dont spend 70% of time on their own country, 20% thinking about us and 10% thinking about the rest of the world.
If people are looking at other countries they are probably looking at US, China, South Korea and Germany for very different reasons.
The Times really hasn't moved on from the Fog in Channel days, has it?
I've just followed up my covid test as it is now 6 days since I had it and the email said that in some circumstances it might take up to 5 days. It's easy to get through but some of the virtual call centre staff are very new and don't know what they're doing. The first was working her first shift and didn't know how to address the system to find out about tests that had previously taken place. The second said she needed my barcode number which is on a piece of paper you find in the test kit, so I scurried off to find it in the recycling. The third then used my personal data to raise a query without needing the barcode number! However she said it was taking up to 10 days in some cases as there is a backlog due to the number of tests sent out at the end of last week.
Wait, no, I tried reading it and gave up after he complained that we don't have a functioning free press, on the basis that they won't all write what he wants them to write.
I think his point is more that they seem to write what the government wants them to write. The best bit of the article for me was - regarding the Ferguson thing - his saying how tacky and inappropriate it was to splash the WOMAN'S face all over the front pages. I'm glad I'm not alone in finding that completely outrageous.
30 May for the diary. My memory of 1997 was finally knowing what multiple orgasm felt like.
I know this might be an unfashionable view, but I think you might be in for another one at the next election. Starmer has 4 years to show his professionalism and Johnson has 4 years to show his rank amateurism, which the public will become increasingly tired of. I don't particularly want a Labour government, but the Tory party needs a very large dose of disinfectant, as does the Republican Party in the US.
Starmer is no Blair, when Blair took over in 1994 he had a double digit lead, Starmer is over 10 points behind. Even John Smith was ahead when he took over in 1992.
At best he will scrape in with the LDs, he will not get a majority for Labour
Scotland is a big problem for Labour. However, four years of Starmer appearing as Rumpole of the Bailey and Boris appearing like Bertie Wooster could change that.
Scotland voting SNP but also being in the UK has it all ways, so it will take an earthquake to undo. Besides, lots of people who would vote for Starmer won't vote for the party as long as it is full of dim extremists.
No the world is looking at their own countries and thinking what to do next. The UK has a very weird narcissistic view of itself, the rest of the world dont spend 70% of time on their own country, 20% thinking about us and 10% thinking about the rest of the world.
If people are looking at other countries they are probably looking at US, China, South Korea and Germany for very different reasons.
The Times really hasn't moved on from the Fog in Channel days, has it?
This is one of these one-way valves, where it’s fine for the Prime Minister preposterously to claim that “there will be many people looking now at our apparent success”.
Can someone tell me why 1706 was so bad, a quick google search doesn't tell me anything beyond the negotiations for the 1707 Act of Union and the battle to get the Hanoverian dynasty as the family to replace Queen Anne.
Or is it that the Bank of England don't have figures going back before 1706?
The South Sea bubble collapsed in 1720. So my guess is that data prior to 1706 doesn't exist, or isn't reliable or compatible
The modern concept of GDP comes from Simon Kuznets's work in the 1930s, and the measurement of GDP dates from after WWII; earlier figures are indirect imputations and estimations from other, also sparse data.
As a matter of interest - is there any older data on the split of the economy between manufacturing, services etc? I haven't been able to find anything much before the 1940s. Anything computed, guessed at?
No. We should not be suspending party politics or criticism of the government just because the PM wants to do his Churchill impersonation act. We didn’t do this in war-time. We shouldn’t do it now.
Actually in war-time we did set aside party political differences and seek the best for the country. Both in WWII and in more recent wars such as Iraq and Afghanistan parties have tried to do the right thing for the country and not just think about party first.
There is absolutely room to criticise mistakes, there was then and there is now. But the criticism of the government should be because there is something appropriate to criticise not because the government is led by a party or politician that you dislike.
That is simply not true.
During WW2 we changed Prime Minister twice, there were by-elections and votes of no confidence in Parliament.
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, while soldiers may have been supported, party politics continued and there was very severe criticism of what the government was doing, sometimes from its own members and supporters.
My criticism of the government is based on what it has done or is failing to do. Over testing, over PPE, over care homes, over its confused messaging and over its initial economic help.
I appreciate that it is a very difficult situation and that it may well be trying its best. But it does not get a free pass from criticism just because this makes its supporters feel uncomfortable. Some of the criticism also needs to be levelled at previous governments who it appears failed to implement the lessons learned from its pandemic exercises (Hunt and May, for instance).
I never said give a free pass did I? I said criticise where its appropriate because there is something to criticise.
Criticising (or defending) with spin because "my team right or wrong" helps nobody.
Given the abject health failures of this government, if any World War Two comparisons are to be made I trust we can all agree that Boris Johnson is this era’s Neville Chamberlain?
I agree. Apparently the Conservative Party Conference has not been cancelled, although the lockdown rules would have to change for it to take place even with social distancing. I hope Boris Johnson will enjoy the Conservative Party Conference, but it will not be anything like the old days.
its been a busy few days with work so not had much chance to even look at PB let alone post. But just wanted to say what a fantastic thread header Cyclefree wrote for the previous thread. Extremely well presented and informative.
PB at its best.
I agree. Just read it. Very good. As was Alastair's WW2 one.
Thank you both.
I hope the government reads, understands and follows!
Wait, no, I tried reading it and gave up after he complained that we don't have a functioning free press, on the basis that they won't all write what he wants them to write.
I think his point is more that they seem to write what the government wants them to write. The best bit of the article for me was - regarding the Ferguson thing - his saying how tacky and inappropriate it was to splash the WOMAN'S face all over the front pages. I'm glad I'm not alone in finding that completely outrageous.
Well, part of the problem with story-by-chewing-up-press-releases is that you are still writing a story based on the press release. However much you chew. Hence the New Labour realisation of press control - simply embed some nice chewy stories in the press releases and the press will play good dog.
30 May for the diary. My memory of 1997 was finally knowing what multiple orgasm felt like.
I know this might be an unfashionable view, but I think you might be in for another one at the next election. Starmer has 4 years to show his professionalism and Johnson has 4 years to show his rank amateurism, which the public will become increasingly tired of. I don't particularly want a Labour government, but the Tory party needs a very large dose of disinfectant, as does the Republican Party in the US.
Starmer is no Blair, when Blair took over in 1994 he had a double digit lead, Starmer is over 10 points behind. Even John Smith was ahead when he took over in 1992.
At best he will scrape in with the LDs, he will not get a majority for Labour
Scotland is a big problem for Labour. However, four years of Starmer appearing as Rumpole of the Bailey and Boris appearing like Bertie Wooster could change that.
Scotland voting SNP but also being in the UK has it all ways, so it will take an earthquake to undo. Besides, lots of people who would vote for Starmer won't vote for the party as long as it is full of dim extremists.
MInd, it's not as if the Scots are being asked are they? The latest polling (Panelbase) is 50:50 for indy.
I think that there has been too much emphasis on we did what seemed right on the evidence we had at the time and not enough on well, if we knew what we know now... On that I agree.
Nonsense, it's a novel virus, to not go as precautionary as possible was always wildly irresponsible.
Should've locked down sooner, letting Cheltenham go ahead was a mistake (and many said so at the time).
Do think individual responsibility isn't contracted out to the state, though. Nobody forced people to attend, just as those who've decided to flout the lockdown now are doing so of their own volition.
I expect there to be a full and open enquiry about what has happened in due time and IF there is clear evidence Government action or inaction deliberately caused unnecessary suffering and death I would expect Ministers to accept responsibility and resign.
No idea if the data is actually useful to anyone, but lots of pretty graphs.
A german friend says that his medical line relatives are fuming about the PPE situation there. Apparently a tale of shortages, purchases of stuff that failed quality control, distribution problems...
The EU scheme is considered to be one of those ponderous programs that will arrive. One day. As opposed to someone going to Wurth directly.
Comments
She is a real politician and delivers her policy direct to the public, unlike the buffoon.
My walks take an average of 2 hours, sometimes 3.
If people are looking at other countries they are probably looking at US, China, South Korea and Germany for very different reasons.
Your unalloyed loathing of the man does cause you to retweet the most ridiculous things.
If most of the restrictions are lifted by July it seems fair to reduce the scope of the furlough scheme, Im not sure why that would be controversial? Many will still need help but probably not 8m or whatever the number for April was.
- Health care workers
- Social care workers (maybe particularly given lack of PPE)
- Supermarket staff
- All the people flouting lockdown
- Teachers (one brother in law is a teacher in a private school and still going in part time to teach key-workers' - many of whom are doctors - children)
- Construction workers (other two brothers-in-law are site managers on active sites and, despite best efforts - including banning from site subcontractors not following the site rules - can't enforce social distancing all the time)
- Farmers (we live near farms and there doesn't seem to be a lot of social distancing going on, although we may be observing family groups)
Say Rt in all these groups is significantly reduced due to precautions, that's fine, but the Rt for those infected in these groups passing it on to their families is presumably still high (pretty much determined by lived-with family size, I guess)
As a relative of mine, who lived through both regimes put it - "When you are being tortured in a cellar, do the collar tabs on the uniform really matter?"
Does that make me a fanbois? Or perhaps your sweeping generalisations dont reflect everyone else's reality?
Both the Nazis and Communists had plenty of adherents and apologists. The events of both 1945 and 1989 have shaped the world we know today yet we struggle to comprehend the enormity of them. I'll offer the thought Liberation Day is celebrated every year as a public holiday in the Channel Islands as it is in the likes of Denmark and the Netherlands.
My gripe this morning is percentages - if you told most people the economy will fall by 20% this year and rebound by 20% next year they'd think it would be back where it was.
No - if you start at 100, fall 20% in year one and rise 20% in year two you are at 96. Getting back to 100 would mean a rise of 25% in year two. Using percentages is so much spin and disinformation or it assumes a greater mathematical acumen than I suspect generally exists.
Lies, damn lies, statistics, percentages and betting odds on in novice chases are the things Stodge does not believe in or do - this is not a complete list but suffices for this exercise.
Seeing the Quantitative Easing figures today if I'm reading this right can someone confirm the BoE is doing £210 billion of Quantitative Easing so far this year and that's to start with there could be more? Source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing
Also I believe so far the government has sought £225 billion of bonds so far this year? Of course there will be more to come. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/23/uk-seeks-to-borrow-225bn-to-fund-huge-surge-in-public-spending
Meaning am I right in thinking that net the government has sought to borrow £15 billion with £210 billion printed?
And the £15 billion is being borrowed at ~0.1% interest I believe?
So am I right in thinking the net long term fiscal effect of the actions so far is £15 million per annum of interest?
That seems implausibly low even to me, have I made a mistake somewhere?
its been a busy few days with work so not had much chance to even look at PB let alone post. But just wanted to say what a fantastic thread header Cyclefree wrote for the previous thread. Extremely well presented and informative.
PB at its best.
My sister is a teacher and has to wear something like PPE for working at the hub for key worker kids but very few turn up. Is there any evidence that teachers are becoming infected?
We really don't have a clear picture how this virus spreads. That is our weakness in trying to decide what to do next.
However, if people are dying unnecessarily because of government errors regarding PPE, testing and timing the lockdown to perfection, all need calling out and reviewing to see if and why things did or did not go wrong.
P Tories are bemoaning criticism as partisan, yet when the government wilfully massaged the testing figures, it was a case that Matt had stuck one on the hapless Starmer. Boris, too, yesterday with one eye on his popularity trumped Starmer's excellent PMQ performance by hinting at an end to lockdown. Loads of stupid games are being played by all sides at a time when they shouldn't.
And don't get me started on Hancock slapping down Allin Khan
...
Sorry, I blacked out and Duncan Hothersall took over my body there.
At best he will scrape in with the LDs, he will not get a majority for Labour
How you square that circle while incentivising those who could work back to work is going to be an impossible task.
It was only under Ed Miliband Labour lost its Scottish MPs
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/06/headlines-neil-ferguson-coronavirus-death-rate?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
But there are at least a couple of areas where their response/decisions have been so poor as to be criminal. The treatment of care homes and allowing untested admittance to those returning from hospital is one area. The failure to take control of PHE and stop their idiocy over testing labs was another.
Someone needs to answer for these failures as they were both predictable and avoidable.
In doing this it will no doubt have all sorts of experts over this - including the economic nudge unit. If they manipulate or selectively use data to nudge the economy back to functionality this would have my full support. Indeed, I would criticise them if they didn`t do so. Transparency is not always good.
On international data comparisons - of course they are not reliable yet. But I'm pretty confident that if the UK data were similar to, say, Germany's, neither the government nor its supporters on here would be quite so critical of the validity of the data; rather, I suspect they would be celebrating our success.
It looks punitive and harsh because it is. And it achieves nothing.
For context, when we were discussing universal basic income in March before the govts scheme, I was proposing £1500, which was one of the highest if not the highest people argued for on here, most were in the £500-£1000 region.
On the assumption that some social distancing rules or advice will be in place:-
1. Those sectors where people can return to work full time can have furlough withdrawn gradually.
2. Those where some work can be done have reduced furlough - similar to the Swedish scheme.
3. And those sectors which cannot operate profitably (the hospitality trade - in the widest sense) continue to receive furlough payments.
For this last - and maybe others - I would add the option of one-off compensation payments for businesses in that sector so that they can shut if they want to and find alternative ways of making a living.
There is absolutely room to criticise mistakes, there was then and there is now. But the criticism of the government should be because there is something appropriate to criticise not because the government is led by a party or politician that you dislike.
Wait, no, I tried reading it and gave up after he complained that we don't have a functioning free press, on the basis that they won't all write what he wants them to write.
The government simply is not set up to think of the country in such explicit and immediate terms while putting what is best for the governing party to one side.
I expect there to be a full and open enquiry about what has happened in due time and IF there is clear evidence Government action or inaction deliberately caused unnecessary suffering and death I would expect Ministers to accept responsibility and resign.
I also accept it was initially a fast developing situation and I will accept genuine mistakes made in the heat of the moment - avoidable with hindsight maybe but that's often the case.
If we had a non-Conservative Government in power now, it would have its defenders and its detractors - that's the nature of the political beast.
Assigning the deaths to the date when they actually occurred is crucial (and omitted by the majority of the press).
The number of deaths in hospitals in England is down from 874 on 8th April to 281 on 30th April (the most recent date for which the data can yet be viewed as reliable)
Only Ruth Davidson with a bit of Gordon Brown towards the end was British and genuinely proud of it. Only the good sense of the Scottish people saved the Union.
I.e. 7 May is closest to 7 March (or whatever date) in terms of number of infections?
From a technical standpoint, the way you'd do it if you wanted a contract tracking app is exactly what A and G have done, with a long list of anonymised ID number pairs and no other information. The way you'd do it if you want to track locations and interactions of known people in a large central database is the way NHSX have done it. Now, that's not to say that knowing about the location of infection hotspots is a bad thing, but there's a lot being said by omission about what the NHSX app does and how it works.
During WW2 we changed Prime Minister twice, there were by-elections and votes of no confidence in Parliament.
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, while soldiers may have been supported, party politics continued and there was very severe criticism of what the government was doing, sometimes from its own members and supporters.
My criticism of the government is based on what it has done or is failing to do. Over testing, over PPE, over care homes, over its confused messaging and over its initial economic help.
I appreciate that it is a very difficult situation and that it may well be trying its best. But it does not get a free pass from criticism just because this makes its supporters feel uncomfortable. Some of the criticism also needs to be levelled at previous governments who it appears failed to implement the lessons learned from its pandemic exercises (Hunt and May, for instance).
Johnson wanted to be PM. Well this is what being PM is. Being abused and having shit flung at you 24/7 so fuck him right in his fat twat.
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/research-datasets#
Criticising (or defending) with spin because "my team right or wrong" helps nobody.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52569364
Incidentally, anyone know if the much-vaunted EU scheme has managed to find any equipment yet? All gone very quiet on that front...
Edit: hijacking my own post to share this, which I've not seen posted here yet:
https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/
No idea if the data is actually useful to anyone, but lots of pretty graphs.
I hope the government reads, understands and follows! Very much seconded. Best of luck!
Should've locked down sooner, letting Cheltenham go ahead was a mistake (and many said so at the time).
Do think individual responsibility isn't contracted out to the state, though. Nobody forced people to attend, just as those who've decided to flout the lockdown now are doing so of their own volition.
The EU scheme is considered to be one of those ponderous programs that will arrive. One day. As opposed to someone going to Wurth directly.