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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Can the Tories manage the lockdown endgame without alienating

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  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    HYUFD said:

    Once the lockdown ends I don't think the government will ban over 70s from going out just advise them to only do so when necessary and to exercise social distancing when doing so as they are most at risk of death from Covid 19.

    We are all going to have to deal with social distancing for a lengthy period even when restrictions are eased. Part of it will be instruction from above and part will be residual fear and anxiety.

    As for your comment on the dementia tax, I would argue this virus will lead to a wholesale re-appraisal of how we manage care for the elderly. As more comes out about deaths in residential homes there will be calls for tighter regulation and there will be many who will not want their relatives anywhere near such places.

    From a construction point of view, it's an argument for new homes to be built with older relatives in mind so an integrated "granny flat" could prove very popular.

    As for caring for those with dementia, that is a huge policy area bereft of easy or simple answers.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    I think that Priti Patel managed to get all the numbers right this time. It's a start.

    Just about managed to keep her temper, too. N. London/S. Hertfordshire word endings in plenty, too particularly as the Cons. went on.
    But who in Gods name writes this stuff for them? Can they not use manage to use to 75% fewer words, or at least cut out the platitudes and slogans.
    Patel put her shoulder to the wheel..... or all our shoulders to the wheel twice and I think three times.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    rcs1000 said:

    I just took a look at the Italian numbers for the first time for ages. Three observations:

    1. While the number of new infections continues to (broadly) trend downwards, it's come off less quickly than I would have expected. This is probably partly due to massive undercounting at the peak (56% peak postive test rate, against 4% now), and partly because lockdowns have not been as severe as (for example) China.

    2. The number of people in ICU with CV-19 has roughly halved from the peak, and the number of offficially active cases is also declining now.

    3. Some massive regions of Italy are basically CV-19 free, while Lombardy continues to see 1,000 official new cases a day. Big cities, with lots of people in apartment complexes. and dense public transport systems, are an utter nightmare.

    And for those who want to know the difference lockdowns make, look at Rome and Milan. In the former, the lockdown happened early enough to make a difference. In the latter, it came too late.

    I'd be interested in your analysis of the Spanish situation.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Andy_JS said:

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kim Jong Un in ‘vegetative state,’ Japanese media report says"

    https://nypost.com/2020/04/25/kim-jong-un-in-vegetative-state-japanese-media-report-says/

    Didn't Brezhnev die in 1976 and was wheeled around as a stuffed mannequin for some years after?
    I haven't heard that before. Maybe it's true.
    Or it could be Fake News.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andy_JS said:

    Flanner said:

    TimT said:



    And my guess is that, regardless of what the scientific- and evidence-based policy recommendations that come out, the older people themselves are going to be more risk averse and more conservative in their own behaviours, voluntarily. I do not see how this will adversely impact the Tory vote on its own.

    Not true, in my experience. In my bit of the Cotswolds, there's a clear dividing line around 77/78. North of that line, TimT's right: south, there's a real "if I climbed Kilimanjaro last year, why do I need to pretend I'm frail?" vibe.

    Interestingly, that line roughly coincides with:
    - Voting Remain/LibDem (ie: the Kilimanjaro climbers all voted Remain)
    - No serious recent intimation of mortality (the risk-averse have all been in hospital in the past year or two)
    - Technically being a Boomer (crudely: if you were born after the Blitz, you think you know better than the PM how to look after yourself and others)

    I'd also observe that the most prevalent form of gratuitous checking on others is by the Kilmanjaro cohort of over-60s on the over-77 cohort.
    Let's remember these are people who lived through much more serious epidemics in 1957 and 1968. The 1968 flu epidemic killed 80,000 in the UK and the 1957 epidemic 33,000.

    https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/uk/history-of-major-virus-outbreaks-in-the-uk-in-recent-times/
    There was no lockdown in 1957 or 1968 though
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Population density will of course impact the spread of the virus but unless that results in a cluster which overwhelms an areas health system then it shouldn’t impact clinical outcomes .

    The NHS seems to have coped well but why so many deaths per 1 million of population .

    It’s not about quality of care the NHS will be delivering on that front . It’s likely to be because of late hospitalizations, people are leaving it too late to get help .

    This probably isn’t helped by the advice , if your condition worsens you are asked to call 111 not an ambulance .

    In Germany mobile units go round checking daily on those with Covid 19 who are ill and check blood oxygen etc , this means people are quickly admitted to hospital if their condition worsens , in France you are asked to call an ambulance if your condition worsens not an advice line .

    Both of these countries have less hospital deaths than the UK . Germany around a quarter of UK hospital deaths and France has around 6,500 less before today’s update .

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Andy_JS said:

    "Kim Jong Un in ‘vegetative state,’ Japanese media report says"

    https://nypost.com/2020/04/25/kim-jong-un-in-vegetative-state-japanese-media-report-says/


    Time to watch "The Death of Stalin" again.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited April 2020
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Once the lockdown ends I don't think the government will ban over 70s from going out just advise them to only do so when necessary and to exercise social distancing when doing so as they are most at risk of death from Covid 19.

    We are all going to have to deal with social distancing for a lengthy period even when restrictions are eased. Part of it will be instruction from above and part will be residual fear and anxiety.

    As for your comment on the dementia tax, I would argue this virus will lead to a wholesale re-appraisal of how we manage care for the elderly. As more comes out about deaths in residential homes there will be calls for tighter regulation and there will be many who will not want their relatives anywhere near such places.

    From a construction point of view, it's an argument for new homes to be built with older relatives in mind so an integrated "granny flat" could prove very popular.

    As for caring for those with dementia, that is a huge policy area bereft of easy or simple answers.
    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million



  • davidcdavidc Posts: 13
    Can't stand Triple H, Brock Lesnar is my man!!
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited April 2020
    Stocky said:

    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    813 more UK hospital deaths

    Grim

    Not from today, though.
    Merely reported today. Some of them occurred in March.
    The actual comparable daily deaths is diminishing still, and in encouraging fashion.
    https://imgur.com/D8ybVBO

    Show what is happening, to a fair degree
    This is better:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1254041723526922241?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/8648/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-getting-rid-of-the-ftpa-won-t-be-that-easy/p7

    By reading across the diagonals (colour-coded), you can make comparisons meaningfully. The brick-red colour is the earliest that data can be deemed sufficiently reliable to be truly meaningful, and the indications are of a downward trend.
    Andy, can you post a direct URL to Paton's graph. Any graphs linked via Twitter do not open for me for some reason.
    Sure - try:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWc_SQ6XsAM-_6v?format=png&name=medium

    Thanks, don't know what is going on. It starts to download and then just stops. Thanks all the same.
    Trying to embed it in this page:


    (image from David Paton)
    Thanks - these look encouraging. 8 April still looks like the peak.
    Not to me. The deaths reported today that occured in the 7 days to 25th April are 32 more than the deaths reported yesterday that occured in the 7 days to 24th April. So the increase today is largely due to current data, not to late reporting of deaths from weeks back.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    nico67 said:

    Population density will of course impact the spread of the virus but unless that results in a cluster which overwhelms an areas health system then it shouldn’t impact clinical outcomes .

    The NHS seems to have coped well but why so many deaths per 1 million of population .

    It’s not about quality of care the NHS will be delivering on that front . It’s likely to be because of late hospitalizations, people are leaving it too late to get help .

    This probably isn’t helped by the advice , if your condition worsens you are asked to call 111 not an ambulance .

    In Germany mobile units go round checking daily on those with Covid 19 who are ill and check blood oxygen etc , this means people are quickly admitted to hospital if their condition worsens , in France you are asked to call an ambulance if your condition worsens not an advice line .

    Both of these countries have less hospital deaths than the UK . Germany around a quarter of UK hospital deaths and France has around 6,500 less before today’s update .

    Yes, I think it not just non Covid-19 patients presenting late. Test early, isolate and monitor. Test and trace contacts.

    There are a lot of lessons to be learned.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    HYUFD said:


    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million

    I wonder if that IHT line will hold given the parlous state of the public finances. If the Government has to borrow £300 billion against a backdrop of a gradual recovery from a disastrously low level, how will the public finances be restored?

    Would you advocate spending cuts, tax rises or both?



  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Once the lockdown ends I don't think the government will ban over 70s from going out just advise them to only do so when necessary and to exercise social distancing when doing so as they are most at risk of death from Covid 19.

    We are all going to have to deal with social distancing for a lengthy period even when restrictions are eased. Part of it will be instruction from above and part will be residual fear and anxiety.

    As for your comment on the dementia tax, I would argue this virus will lead to a wholesale re-appraisal of how we manage care for the elderly. As more comes out about deaths in residential homes there will be calls for tighter regulation and there will be many who will not want their relatives anywhere near such places.

    From a construction point of view, it's an argument for new homes to be built with older relatives in mind so an integrated "granny flat" could prove very popular.

    As for caring for those with dementia, that is a huge policy area bereft of easy or simple answers.

    The U3a is giving some thought to that; one matter of concern is those over 70's who have no experience of, and are therefore 'not interested in' the internet. I'm not sure how get laptops and connections to all of those, ro keep them in contact.
    It's not too bad for my friends; we just set up a Zoom, or similar, meeting and off we go.
    However, I agree with Mr S, and as someone who has a close relative recently advised of the onset of dementia, I wonder how he's going to cope.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Did Spurs’ twitter team know today was the 14th anniversary of the invincibles winning the league at White Hart Lane?

    https://twitter.com/spursofficial/status/1253956914083487745?s=21

    16th anniversary! 🙈
    I was planning on wearing my “AT THE LANE 04” shirt to the game tomorrow.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited April 2020
    felix said:

    I think we might usefully just rename all thread headers as 'Bad for the Tories [insert day] because [ insert reason].......

    Generally the government is doing OK, middle of the pack as far as I can see.

    However I do have an issue with Johnson. His character flaws were well known before the Tories picked him. After winning the GE he went off to the Caribbean for 10 days but I doubt anyone would begrudge him a holiday after the GE and I certainly didn't.

    For the second half of February though we now learn than rather than focussing on the pandemic heading our way he decided to spend 2 weeks at a country house with his girlfriend largely, if reports are to be believed, trying to sort out his turgid private life so he is free to marry the woman who was, by now, pregnant with his child.

    Once back in harness he then appears to adopt a very cavalier attitude to recommendations on avoiding the virus. Still shaking hands, going off to Twickenham for the rugby etc. Somewhat inevitably, he get's Covid-19 and goes MIA again where he has remained for the duration.

    Did it ever occur to him that as PM he had a greater responsibility than most of us to avoid getting sick? I doubt it even crossed his mind. How hard would it have been, Christ, even Trump managed to take the necessary precautions to avoid contracting the virus.

    Boris might be a jolly good laugh but does not take the role of PM seriously. It's all a bit of a game. We knew that before of course but now we are stuck with it during the worst crisis we have experienced in decades. He comes across as not have taken the pandemic seriously until far later than he should have done. We will never really know what the price of that has been.
  • This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million

    I wonder if that IHT line will hold given the parlous state of the public finances. If the Government has to borrow £300 billion against a backdrop of a gradual recovery from a disastrously low level, how will the public finances be restored?

    Would you advocate spending cuts, tax rises or both?



    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    Boris won the 2019 general election on a Berlusconi style package of keeping tax low and spending more and he and Sunak will just borrow to make up the difference. Austerity is dead, only the LDs had a manifesto last time which was even vaguely fiscally conservative
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kim Jong Un in ‘vegetative state,’ Japanese media report says"

    https://nypost.com/2020/04/25/kim-jong-un-in-vegetative-state-japanese-media-report-says/


    Time to watch "The Death of Stalin" again.....
    I thought it was one of the best films of the last 10 years. I was surprised by how many people didn't like it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    When I see Little Rocket man, for some reason I think of Elvis.....just imagine he is there eating burger after burger, because nobody will draw tell him to stop.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2020
    @Alistair

    Swedish nursing homes are not consistent in their testing/reporting of covid deaths. Stockholm test and report more than other counties

    https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7453417

    Interesting website

    https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7453417
  • This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    When I see Little Rocket man, for some reason I think of Elvis.....just imagine he is there eating burger after burger, because nobody will draw tell him to stop.
    One of the reasons I loved Rocketman the film was when I saw it at the cinema, Godzilla: King of the Monsters was on the same time, and during several moments during Rocketman the sound of Godzilla bled through from the next screen.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    “ Investigations are open in Sweden into representatives of the Syrian regime who are now in the Nordic country, with possible war crimes and crimes against humanity being looked into, a prosecutor told Swedish Radio.”

    https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7459084
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    If he has died North Korea will just become a Chinese puppet state
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    OllyT said:

    felix said:

    I think we might usefully just rename all thread headers as 'Bad for the Tories [insert day] because [ insert reason].......

    Generally the government is doing OK, middle of the pack as far as I can see.

    However I do have an issue with Johnson. His character flaws were well known before the Tories picked him. After winning the GE he went off to the Caribbean for 10 days but I doubt anyone would begrudge him a holiday after the GE and I certainly didn't.

    For the second half of February though we now learn than rather than focussing on the pandemic heading our way he decided to spend 2 weeks at a country house with his girlfriend largely, if reports are to be believed, trying to sort out his turgid private life so he is free to marry the woman who was, by now, pregnant with his child.

    Once back in harness he then appears to adopt a very cavalier attitude to recommendations on avoiding the virus. Still shaking hands, going off to Twickenham for the rugby etc. Somewhat inevitably, he get's Covid-19 and goes MIA again where he has remained for the duration.

    Did it ever occur to him that as PM he had a greater responsibility than most of us to avoid getting sick? I doubt it even crossed his mind. How hard would it have been, Christ, even Trump managed to take the necessary precautions to avoid contracting the virus.

    Boris might be a jolly good laugh but does not take the role of PM seriously. It's all a bit of a game. We knew that before of course but now we are stuck with it during the worst crisis we have experienced in decades. He comes across as not have taken the pandemic seriously until far later than he should have done. We will never really know what the price of that has been.
    Surely you meant torrid, not turgid?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited April 2020

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    edited April 2020
    HYUFD said:

    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    IHT doesn't even raise that much cash: [OBR] expect IHT to raise £5.3 billion in 2019-20. That would represent 0.7 per cent of all receipts and is equivalent to 0.2 per cent of national income.
    HYUFD said:

    Austerity is dead.

    The issue is where would you cut?

    NHS = hardly. Welfare demands will surely increase. Defence? Who built the nightingales?

    My pick? HS2. I cannot see how these nice to haves are doable.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited April 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    I just took a look at the Italian numbers for the first time for ages. Three observations:

    1. While the number of new infections continues to (broadly) trend downwards, it's come off less quickly than I would have expected. This is probably partly due to massive undercounting at the peak (56% peak postive test rate, against 4% now), and partly because lockdowns have not been as severe as (for example) China.

    2. The number of people in ICU with CV-19 has roughly halved from the peak, and the number of offficially active cases is also declining now.

    3. Some massive regions of Italy are basically CV-19 free, while Lombardy continues to see 1,000 official new cases a day. Big cities, with lots of people in apartment complexes. and dense public transport systems, are an utter nightmare.

    And for those who want to know the difference lockdowns make, look at Rome and Milan. In the former, the lockdown happened early enough to make a difference. In the latter, it came too late.

    One thing that is very clear is that once the virus is in a confined environment - whether it be a cruise ship, a care home, or a family house (or indeed over a shorter timescale an aeroplane) it is very difficult to stop it spreading. Milan’s lockdown surely left hundreds of carriers locked away to share the virus with the rest of their household.

    Talking to my mother, who isn’t going out but is still interacting with the other flat owners in her semi-sheltered block, it occurs to me that the type of small block (six to ten flats) apartments that are common in Italy and Spain may be a big part of their problem; behind the security of their gate the residents of each block may feel relaxed about interacting with each other. Which is fine until one of them is a carrier.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
    Have you not noticed we are heading into a global overheating crisis that will make coronavirus look like tiny blip?

    Trump and other Republicans dedicated to the destruction of human civilisation have got to go.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
    It would be helpful to also note the US pandemic death toll much of it caused by Trump's handling.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Socky said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    IHT doesn't even raise that much cash: [OBR] expect IHT to raise £5.3 billion in 2019-20. That would represent 0.7 per cent of all receipts and is equivalent to 0.2 per cent of national income.
    HYUFD said:

    Austerity is dead.

    The issue is where would you cut?

    NHS = hardly. Welfare demands will surely increase. Defence? Who built the nightingales?

    My pick? HS2. I cannot see how these nice to haves such are doable.
    IHT is also about the most unpopular tax there is bar fuel tax.

    If anything is going to be cut then yes HS2 may go, it is not that popular and was Osborne's pet project not Boris'
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
    It would be helpful to also note the US pandemic death toll much of it caused by Trump's handling.
    And that's before he refuses to leave the WH if he loses, and whips his armed base into a killing frenzy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
    It would be helpful to also note the US pandemic death toll much of it caused by Trump's handling.
    The US has a lower pandemic death toll per head than France, Italy, Spain and Belgium and us and is testing more per head than we and the French are too
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    If he has died North Korea will just become a Chinese puppet state
    That would be progress (from dangerously unpredictable to merely bad).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    HYUFD said:

    Socky said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    IHT doesn't even raise that much cash: [OBR] expect IHT to raise £5.3 billion in 2019-20. That would represent 0.7 per cent of all receipts and is equivalent to 0.2 per cent of national income.
    HYUFD said:

    Austerity is dead.

    The issue is where would you cut?

    NHS = hardly. Welfare demands will surely increase. Defence? Who built the nightingales?

    My pick? HS2. I cannot see how these nice to haves such are doable.
    IHT is also about the most unpopular tax there is bar fuel tax.

    If anything is going to be cut then yes HS2 may go, it is not that popular and was Osborne's pet project not Boris'
    HS2 is peanuts compared to the debt that we are taking on to try and save the economy from the virus lockdown.

    There wont be cuts. We'll have to inflate our way out would be my guess.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Socky said:

    HYUFD said:

    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    IHT doesn't even raise that much cash: [OBR] expect IHT to raise £5.3 billion in 2019-20. That would represent 0.7 per cent of all receipts and is equivalent to 0.2 per cent of national income.
    HYUFD said:

    Austerity is dead.

    The issue is where would you cut?

    NHS = hardly. Welfare demands will surely increase. Defence? Who built the nightingales?

    My pick? HS2. I cannot see how these nice to haves are doable.
    But at near zero interest rates, investment in infrastructure isn’t the problem, and won’t help balance the current account. Spending cuts are exhausted as a way out, hence it must be some combination of inflation and extra taxes.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    1) This guy seems to have Trump derangement syndrome.

    2) Is China really looking for another way of pissing off the ROTW?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
    It would be helpful to also note the US pandemic death toll much of it caused by Trump's handling.
    The US has a lower pandemic death toll per head than France, Italy, Spain and Belgium and us and is testing more per head than we and the French are too
    Not if you allow for the time shift.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    IanB2 said:

    OllyT said:

    felix said:

    I think we might usefully just rename all thread headers as 'Bad for the Tories [insert day] because [ insert reason].......

    Generally the government is doing OK, middle of the pack as far as I can see.

    However I do have an issue with Johnson. His character flaws were well known before the Tories picked him. After winning the GE he went off to the Caribbean for 10 days but I doubt anyone would begrudge him a holiday after the GE and I certainly didn't.

    For the second half of February though we now learn than rather than focussing on the pandemic heading our way he decided to spend 2 weeks at a country house with his girlfriend largely, if reports are to be believed, trying to sort out his turgid private life so he is free to marry the woman who was, by now, pregnant with his child.

    Once back in harness he then appears to adopt a very cavalier attitude to recommendations on avoiding the virus. Still shaking hands, going off to Twickenham for the rugby etc. Somewhat inevitably, he get's Covid-19 and goes MIA again where he has remained for the duration.

    Did it ever occur to him that as PM he had a greater responsibility than most of us to avoid getting sick? I doubt it even crossed his mind. How hard would it have been, Christ, even Trump managed to take the necessary precautions to avoid contracting the virus.

    Boris might be a jolly good laugh but does not take the role of PM seriously. It's all a bit of a game. We knew that before of course but now we are stuck with it during the worst crisis we have experienced in decades. He comes across as not have taken the pandemic seriously until far later than he should have done. We will never really know what the price of that has been.
    Surely you meant torrid, not turgid?
    Probably - but I rather liked the original.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited April 2020
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
    Have you not noticed we are heading into a global overheating crisis that will make coronavirus look like tiny blip?



    Trump and other Republicans dedicated to the destruction of human civilisation have got to go.
    China is the world's leading carbon dioxide emitter and 'according to the 2019 BP Statistical Review of World Energy, global annual carbon dioxide emissions have increased by 20% since the Kyoto Protocol. The Asia Pacific region saw carbon dioxide emissions increase by 50% since 2005, while emissions in the U.S. and EU declined.'
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/12/04/the-worlds-top-10-carbon-dioxide-emitters/#41f7a4f02d04
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    He must not win. Nothing more important.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kim Jong Un in ‘vegetative state,’ Japanese media report says"

    https://nypost.com/2020/04/25/kim-jong-un-in-vegetative-state-japanese-media-report-says/


    Time to watch "The Death of Stalin" again.....
    I thought it was one of the best films of the last 10 years. I was surprised by how many people didn't like it.
    It was insensitive and mostly unfunny crap.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    I think that Priti Patel managed to get all the numbers right this time. It's a start.

    Just about managed to keep her temper, too. N. London/S. Hertfordshire word endings in plenty, too particularly as the Cons. went on.
    But who in Gods name writes this stuff for them? Can they not use manage to use to 75% fewer words, or at least cut out the platitudes and slogans.
    Patel put her shoulder to the wheel..... or all our shoulders to the wheel twice and I think three times.
    Also boasting that shoplifting is down when almost all shops are closed is pathetic, Tories struggling for positivity. Next it will be no fights in pubs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million

    I wonder if that IHT line will hold given the parlous state of the public finances. If the Government has to borrow £300 billion against a backdrop of a gradual recovery from a disastrously low level, how will the public finances be restored?

    Would you advocate spending cuts, tax rises or both?



    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    Boris won the 2019 general election on a Berlusconi style package of keeping tax low and spending more and he and Sunak will just borrow to make up the difference. Austerity is dead, only the LDs had a manifesto last time which was even vaguely fiscally conservative
    Are you not a little queasy about asking future generations to subsidise our living standards?
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    IanB2 said:

    But at near zero interest rates, investment in infrastructure isn’t the problem.

    The problem with HS2 is that it isn't a very good investment.

    Better broadband, new motorways, a new airport? Maybe.
    IanB2 said:

    Spending cuts are exhausted as a way out, hence it must be some combination of inflation and extra taxes.

    Inflation and extra taxes both hit future growth.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2020
    @Alistair @Andy_Cooke

    Swedish data in English

    shorturl.at/cfG46
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    One guess what he's going to suggest next.....

    https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1254089093610340352?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million

    I wonder if that IHT line will hold given the parlous state of the public finances. If the Government has to borrow £300 billion against a backdrop of a gradual recovery from a disastrously low level, how will the public finances be restored?

    Would you advocate spending cuts, tax rises or both?



    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    Boris won the 2019 general election on a Berlusconi style package of keeping tax low and spending more and he and Sunak will just borrow to make up the difference. Austerity is dead, only the LDs had a manifesto last time which was even vaguely fiscally conservative
    Are you not a little queasy about asking future generations to subsidise our living standards?
    Elections are not won by future generations
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Incarceration? FFS
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Socky said:

    IanB2 said:

    But at near zero interest rates, investment in infrastructure isn’t the problem.

    The problem with HS2 is that it isn't a very good investment.

    Better broadband, new motorways, a new airport? Maybe.
    IanB2 said:

    Spending cuts are exhausted as a way out, hence it must be some combination of inflation and extra taxes.

    Inflation and extra taxes both hit future growth.

    I think you’ll find that the scenario where the debt remains unaddressed by either inflation or taxes doesn’t turn out too well, either.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
    Have you not noticed we are heading into a global overheating crisis that will make coronavirus look like tiny blip?



    Trump and other Republicans dedicated to the destruction of human civilisation have got to go.
    China is the world's leading carbon dioxide emitter and 'according to the 2019 BP Statistical Review of World Energy, global annual carbon dioxide emissions have increased by 20% since the Kyoto Protocol. The Asia Pacific region saw carbon dioxide emissions increase by 50% since 2005, while emissions in the U.S. and EU declined.'
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/12/04/the-worlds-top-10-carbon-dioxide-emitters/#41f7a4f02d04
    It has a quarter of the worlds population so it is not surprising it emits the most carbon dioxide. On a per capita basis its not far from european countries, the worst offending big countries are USA and Russia.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Stocky said:

    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    813 more UK hospital deaths

    Grim

    Not from today, though.
    Merely reported today. Some of them occurred in March.
    The actual comparable daily deaths is diminishing still, and in encouraging fashion.
    https://imgur.com/D8ybVBO

    Show what is happening, to a fair degree
    This is better:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1254041723526922241?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/8648/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-getting-rid-of-the-ftpa-won-t-be-that-easy/p7

    By reading across the diagonals (colour-coded), you can make comparisons meaningfully. The brick-red colour is the earliest that data can be deemed sufficiently reliable to be truly meaningful, and the indications are of a downward trend.
    Andy, can you post a direct URL to Paton's graph. Any graphs linked via Twitter do not open for me for some reason.
    Sure - try:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWc_SQ6XsAM-_6v?format=png&name=medium

    Thanks, don't know what is going on. It starts to download and then just stops. Thanks all the same.
    Trying to embed it in this page:


    (image from David Paton)
    Thanks - these look encouraging. 8 April still looks like the peak.
    Not to me. The deaths reported today that occured in the 7 days to 25th April are 32 more than the deaths reported yesterday that occured in the 7 days to 24th April. So the increase today is largely due to current data, not to late reporting of deaths from weeks back.
    Despite the increase in earlier days being larger than 32? That doesn't make sense.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited April 2020
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million

    I wonder if that IHT line will hold given the parlous state of the public finances. If the Government has to borrow £300 billion against a backdrop of a gradual recovery from a disastrously low level, how will the public finances be restored?

    Would you advocate spending cuts, tax rises or both?



    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    Boris won the 2019 general election on a Berlusconi style package of keeping tax low and spending more and he and Sunak will just borrow to make up the difference. Austerity is dead, only the LDs had a manifesto last time which was even vaguely fiscally conservative
    Are you not a little queasy about asking future generations to subsidise our living standards?
    Elections are not won by future generations
    You probably didn’t mean it, but you have hit a nail on the head. Democracy is flawed when a blocking vote of people who no longer participate in the labour market can protect their own position while letting the economy for the next generation go hang.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    isam said:

    @Alistair @Andy_Cooke

    Swedish data in English

    shorturl.at/cfG46

    Thanks, but I get:

    “Sorry, the page you requested contains a file type (application/xml) we are unable to translate.”
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million

    I wonder if that IHT line will hold given the parlous state of the public finances. If the Government has to borrow £300 billion against a backdrop of a gradual recovery from a disastrously low level, how will the public finances be restored?

    Would you advocate spending cuts, tax rises or both?



    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    Boris won the 2019 general election on a Berlusconi style package of keeping tax low and spending more and he and Sunak will just borrow to make up the difference. Austerity is dead, only the LDs had a manifesto last time which was even vaguely fiscally conservative
    Are you not a little queasy about asking future generations to subsidise our living standards?
    Elections are not won by future generations
    Uncomfortable with the question?
  • HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    I doubt it, Congress will still likely stay Democrat regardless and despite the bluster Trump has fought fewer wars or sent fewer airstrikes in than Obama, George W Bush or Bill Clinton
    Have you not noticed we are heading into a global overheating crisis that will make coronavirus look like tiny blip?



    Trump and other Republicans dedicated to the destruction of human civilisation have got to go.
    China is the world's leading carbon dioxide emitter and 'according to the 2019 BP Statistical Review of World Energy, global annual carbon dioxide emissions have increased by 20% since the Kyoto Protocol. The Asia Pacific region saw carbon dioxide emissions increase by 50% since 2005, while emissions in the U.S. and EU declined.'
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/12/04/the-worlds-top-10-carbon-dioxide-emitters/#41f7a4f02d04
    Will that picture change, once "globalisation is dead" and those coveted manufacturing jobs have been "brought home"?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    kinabalu said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    He must not win. Nothing more important.
    Nothing? I share your dislike of Trump, but given our current predicament ...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Don't know if it has been mentioned ,apologies if it has, but what will really annoy the oldies us the Triple Lock.
    Utterly unaffordable and moraĺly unjustifiable going forward.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    "Never in a month of Sundays" used to be said about something extremely unlikely, and we've just had a month of Sundays around here. Sundays, bloody Sundays eh?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    dixiedean said:

    Don't know if it has been mentioned ,apologies if it has, but what will really annoy the oldies us the Triple Lock.
    Utterly unaffordable and moraĺly unjustifiable going forward.

    As a beneficiary I say you are right.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    @Alistair @Andy_Cooke

    Swedish data in English

    shorturl.at/cfG46

    Thanks, but I get:

    “Sorry, the page you requested contains a file type (application/xml) we are unable to translate.”
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=2&nv=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://ago-item-storage.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/b5e7488e117749c19881cce45db13f7e/Folkhalsomyndigheten_Covid19.xlsx?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEGkaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJGMEQCIFRlKyrRN1hX6cav8PiMxviFUu%2BjbWU2SE%2B%2F1oyPS%2Bg%2BAiBRheaq6By4%2F9wNoW4q8udT72%2FU4IerupiBpyw5xEdvSiq9AwiR%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F8BEAAaDDYwNDc1ODEwMjY2NSIMt%2FhsPh3xkYQh%2B3QUKpEDQ8NSW8a4wFC2pwk1FFJ0RDqE2pwHsdcRsKIWZaKTzdi82BHnPJo%2BRnOwq30492PZuZtFzLcDK83G1OwB8aRgk%2BU0YdfnWGGxFX2PTk93H4iy3ATp9bZQrShk9%2F%2B5Xbi6XFDhuq9EUcPgPpocf%2FHYAJODL63%2BzxSOuTnUACymXA0nLqvCFTZRa1cO6UmK7q%2F03yq8nubiUI72ZYvgqHCuAUHhmSJvFl30ugjw8RUVgmCW9p5QDXaqidPwIB0U4bPMQO3SRSd7PTI5QJgAVTUo1okVDmsjc0KXw6LGKmt5h75dPrYhsL9ljTJntZlCJDeYAadFzpUj2GV8My91C8BgNUaTPvD4vJhPqy89A7owYQjtyix8moJMyOog3nV3gTvRdljb1%2Bu7Lsb5MZ0I9zdLYpQOHkE%2B8Ih4R5g5utJ%2BL33ExZS5QMfxOirX44GosyM7mfHofey45qNOTyN%2Frs%2BrN82QcPYvx4X37tqFeG1nUAwEm47E%2FB7hr2znbVHHQ0zRFYcEn4pza52AL3ul8AAkpUMwjcSR9QU67AHvyWW3QwwN%2Fhvq1J3mZswOOqZlC%2F3mx%2BlHasSrIZK2SQhbCjyDR1s%2FtXMRurEkjRJE8qXKAJycZIHKWE2mZvAkrQ18HFSjOzHnjE2hlXwTaP945ZpqgGG0lk6UsoYvqqIXpUDwq%2F9IoIwzMGLcv%2BwirJ9tPlo5e1YdeU8FSWOqmNPwcFn4%2BboqIjoE%2Ben0Ra%2B7Sm%2Fo8UHPUGnMxIITezCMlLAsr%2FYiGdplUHgN4JeWDQjS6mQVrS9RQScU6d%2BO2dlM%2BdH8lS2ddFTxbY%2FhKSK0eCLAy%2FVF3n2Wc8bMQQu0RE8e6%2BJCAm9lepfsJw%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20200425T170632Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKE2KOUPG4Q%2F20200425%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=8e410c6a532c565156c95162cf7152fd04dd3fb800c73a9a6f35a31555f25afe&usg=ALkJrhgd8VmcuKjmAswWpXw_8XXFB5xrJw
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    dixiedean said:

    Don't know if it has been mentioned ,apologies if it has, but what will really annoy the oldies us the Triple Lock.
    Utterly unaffordable and moraĺly unjustifiable going forward.

    It was a great policy when it came in as pensioners were amongst the poorest in society at the time. Now they are amongst the richest it is bonkers and only remains because of their bloc voting power.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    This chap used to the Korea guy at the Pentagon, it is a must read thread.

    https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/1253952539092901888

    Blimey. Talk about bleak. We may be only at the beginning of 2020's nightmare year.
    Further evidence, if we needed any, that four more years of Trump will be a catastrophe that is off-the-scale and possibly the end of the US Republic.
    He must not win. Nothing more important.
    Nothing? I share your dislike of Trump, but given our current predicament ...
    I genuinely believe the consequences of 4 more years of Trump will be at least as damaging as a global pandemic.

    So for me it's fingers toes and anything you care to mention crossed for Nov 3rd.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2020
    isam said:

    @Alistair @Andy_Cooke

    Swedish data in English

    shorturl.at/cfG46

    I've yet to check the Swedish statistics beaurua for their updated all causes mortality figures.

    The thing I had found amazing last I had checked was the entirety of their excess mortality over the 5 year average was covered by covid 19 deaths.

    Which suggested zero hidden care home deaths or the like.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million

    I wonder if that IHT line will hold given the parlous state of the public finances. If the Government has to borrow £300 billion against a backdrop of a gradual recovery from a disastrously low level, how will the public finances be restored?

    Would you advocate spending cuts, tax rises or both?



    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    Boris won the 2019 general election on a Berlusconi style package of keeping tax low and spending more and he and Sunak will just borrow to make up the difference. Austerity is dead, only the LDs had a manifesto last time which was even vaguely fiscally conservative
    Are you not a little queasy about asking future generations to subsidise our living standards?
    If the alternative is to impose massive wealth taxes - especially a big increase in taxing the process that, er, transfers wealth to future generations - then I have no problem with it whatsoever. Bring on the debt, then (as I think will be inevitable if the economic consequences of CV unfold as expected), write it off one way or another.

    Letting this shitty virus turn us socialist would truly be to pile Pelion on Ossa.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    And if you build a granny flat and with granny's home only liable for care costs for residential care home accommodation not domestic care now you also get tax free inheritance unless the estate is over £1 million

    I wonder if that IHT line will hold given the parlous state of the public finances. If the Government has to borrow £300 billion against a backdrop of a gradual recovery from a disastrously low level, how will the public finances be restored?

    Would you advocate spending cuts, tax rises or both?



    It will as it would be political suicide for either Starmer or Boris to increase IHT as election 2017 showed so neither will.

    Boris won the 2019 general election on a Berlusconi style package of keeping tax low and spending more and he and Sunak will just borrow to make up the difference. Austerity is dead, only the LDs had a manifesto last time which was even vaguely fiscally conservative
    Are you not a little queasy about asking future generations to subsidise our living standards?
    If the alternative is to impose massive wealth taxes - especially a big increase in taxing the process that, er, transfers wealth to future generations - then I have no problem with it whatsoever. Bring on the debt, then (as I think will be inevitable if the economic consequences of CV unfold as expected), write it off one way or another.

    Letting this shitty virus turn us socialist would truly be to pile Pelion on Ossa.

    The average age those lucky enough to inherit do so is 61. Hardly passing on to the working generations!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    @Alistair @Andy_Cooke

    Swedish data in English

    shorturl.at/cfG46

    I've yet to check the Swedish statistics beaurua for their updated all causes mortality figures.

    The thing I had found amazing last I had checked was the entirety of their excess mortality over the 5 year average was covered by covid 19 deaths.

    Which suggested zero hidden care home deaths or the like.
    The non Stockholm counties are apparently slow to report deaths/cases

    https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7454445
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    HYUFD said:


    Elections are not won by future generations

    So on the other hand you give them some help with an unaffordable level of Inheritance Tax while at the same time bequeathing them an enormous level of debt which will require servicing let alone reduction so future generations will have to spend the national wealth on servicing the debt we have created for them.

    So much for the Conservative Party's reputation for sound fiscal management and sensible economics. At the next GE we'll be faced with a choice of two high-spending social democratic parties.

    On that basis, the only rationale for voting Conservative is they will be better at managing high levels of public borrowing and debt than Labour.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    dixiedean said:

    Don't know if it has been mentioned ,apologies if it has, but what will really annoy the oldies us the Triple Lock.
    Utterly unaffordable and moraĺly unjustifiable going forward.

    It was a great policy when it came in as pensioners were amongst the poorest in society at the time. Now they are amongst the richest it is bonkers and only remains because of their bloc voting power.
    I think the triple lock will go within the next year but ministers won't be able to do that AND keep a full lockdown on the oldies.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    IanB2 said:

    I think you’ll find that the scenario where the debt remains unaddressed by either inflation or taxes doesn’t turn out too well, either.

    Of course, so that means cuts. Where to cut is the problem.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    I think the triple lock will go within the next year but ministers won't be able to do that AND keep a full lockdown on the oldies.

    Yes and for the first time in many years the Conservatives will know what it is like to be unpopular and will have to deal with that. Will ending triple lock be the equivalent of Lamont's VAT on fuel - Sunak wouldn't be so stupid?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    One guess what he's going to suggest next.....

    https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1254089093610340352?s=20

    Wasn't one of HMG's Covid-19 inititatives looking for faster ways to sterilise ambulances? Maybe President Trump will be the winner.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    stodge said:


    I think the triple lock will go within the next year but ministers won't be able to do that AND keep a full lockdown on the oldies.

    Yes and for the first time in many years the Conservatives will know what it is like to be unpopular and will have to deal with that. Will ending triple lock be the equivalent of Lamont's VAT on fuel - Sunak wouldn't be so stupid?
    Difficult decisions will have to be made. Some very painful. Keeping the Triple Lock or imposing a pay freeze on nurses??
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    .
    IshmaelZ said:
    He was present but not involved. Surely the Guardian appreciate the difference? :smiley:
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    A lockdown of some sort was inevitable for a country with the population density of the UK (or England specifically).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    I think the triple lock will go within the next year but ministers won't be able to do that AND keep a full lockdown on the oldies.

    Yes and for the first time in many years the Conservatives will know what it is like to be unpopular and will have to deal with that. Will ending triple lock be the equivalent of Lamont's VAT on fuel - Sunak wouldn't be so stupid?
    Difficult decisions will have to be made. Some very painful. Keeping the Triple Lock or imposing a pay freeze on nurses??
    Nurses will need above inflation pay rises - so it's either triple lock or printing money.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited April 2020
    Which elements of lockdown aren't sustainable - genuine question. Is it the social ones or the economic ones ?
    I'm probably not going to visit a pub or a restaurant (Except to pick up takeout) till a vaccine is in or the virus is eliminated.
    I'd like to visit my parents at some point mind.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    I think the triple lock will go within the next year but ministers won't be able to do that AND keep a full lockdown on the oldies.

    Yes and for the first time in many years the Conservatives will know what it is like to be unpopular and will have to deal with that. Will ending triple lock be the equivalent of Lamont's VAT on fuel - Sunak wouldn't be so stupid?
    Difficult decisions will have to be made. Some very painful. Keeping the Triple Lock or imposing a pay freeze on nurses??
    Nurses will need above inflation pay rises - so it's either triple lock or printing money.
    I admire your optimism.

    This lot are quite capable of doing both.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    stodge said:

    For the first time in many years the Conservatives will know what it is like to be unpopular and will have to deal with that. Will ending triple lock be the equivalent of Lamont's VAT on fuel - Sunak wouldn't be so stupid?

    Temporary suspension?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    One of the big take aways i got from this....post lockdown modelling is underway and coming in the next few days
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    One of the big take aways i got from this....post lockdown modelling is underway and coming in the next few days
    Convenient timing with the Return of Boris.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    @Alistair @Andy_Cooke

    Swedish data in English

    shorturl.at/cfG46

    I've yet to check the Swedish statistics beaurua for their updated all causes mortality figures.

    The thing I had found amazing last I had checked was the entirety of their excess mortality over the 5 year average was covered by covid 19 deaths.

    Which suggested zero hidden care home deaths or the like.
    The non Stockholm counties are apparently slow to report deaths/cases

    https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7454445
    Indeed, and they should turn up as an "above covid levels" of rise in Swedish deaths but overall daily death figure they produce doesn't show an anomalous rise.

    Which is why I am keen to see if they turn up in the latest revision.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Andy_JS said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @Alistair @Andy_Cooke

    Swedish data in English

    shorturl.at/cfG46

    Thanks, but I get:

    “Sorry, the page you requested contains a file type (application/xml) we are unable to translate.”
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=2&nv=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://ago-item-storage.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/b5e7488e117749c19881cce45db13f7e/Folkhalsomyndigheten_Covid19.xlsx?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEGkaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJGMEQCIFRlKyrRN1hX6cav8PiMxviFUu%2BjbWU2SE%2B%2F1oyPS%2Bg%2BAiBRheaq6By4%2F9wNoW4q8udT72%2FU4IerupiBpyw5xEdvSiq9AwiR%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F8BEAAaDDYwNDc1ODEwMjY2NSIMt%2FhsPh3xkYQh%2B3QUKpEDQ8NSW8a4wFC2pwk1FFJ0RDqE2pwHsdcRsKIWZaKTzdi82BHnPJo%2BRnOwq30492PZuZtFzLcDK83G1OwB8aRgk%2BU0YdfnWGGxFX2PTk93H4iy3ATp9bZQrShk9%2F%2B5Xbi6XFDhuq9EUcPgPpocf%2FHYAJODL63%2BzxSOuTnUACymXA0nLqvCFTZRa1cO6UmK7q%2F03yq8nubiUI72ZYvgqHCuAUHhmSJvFl30ugjw8RUVgmCW9p5QDXaqidPwIB0U4bPMQO3SRSd7PTI5QJgAVTUo1okVDmsjc0KXw6LGKmt5h75dPrYhsL9ljTJntZlCJDeYAadFzpUj2GV8My91C8BgNUaTPvD4vJhPqy89A7owYQjtyix8moJMyOog3nV3gTvRdljb1%2Bu7Lsb5MZ0I9zdLYpQOHkE%2B8Ih4R5g5utJ%2BL33ExZS5QMfxOirX44GosyM7mfHofey45qNOTyN%2Frs%2BrN82QcPYvx4X37tqFeG1nUAwEm47E%2FB7hr2znbVHHQ0zRFYcEn4pza52AL3ul8AAkpUMwjcSR9QU67AHvyWW3QwwN%2Fhvq1J3mZswOOqZlC%2F3mx%2BlHasSrIZK2SQhbCjyDR1s%2FtXMRurEkjRJE8qXKAJycZIHKWE2mZvAkrQ18HFSjOzHnjE2hlXwTaP945ZpqgGG0lk6UsoYvqqIXpUDwq%2F9IoIwzMGLcv%2BwirJ9tPlo5e1YdeU8FSWOqmNPwcFn4%2BboqIjoE%2Ben0Ra%2B7Sm%2Fo8UHPUGnMxIITezCMlLAsr%2FYiGdplUHgN4JeWDQjS6mQVrS9RQScU6d%2BO2dlM%2BdH8lS2ddFTxbY%2FhKSK0eCLAy%2FVF3n2Wc8bMQQu0RE8e6%2BJCAm9lepfsJw%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20200425T170632Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKE2KOUPG4Q%2F20200425%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=8e410c6a532c565156c95162cf7152fd04dd3fb800c73a9a6f35a31555f25afe&usg=ALkJrhgd8VmcuKjmAswWpXw_8XXFB5xrJw
    This wins the prize for the longest link of all time.
    And it doesn’t even work!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    dixiedean said:


    Difficult decisions will have to be made. Some very painful. Keeping the Triple Lock or imposing a pay freeze on nurses??

    Sometimes the dice don't fall your way and you have to make a decision which while the right decision is going to be very unpopular especially with your core voting constituency.

    The serious politician will take that decision and accept the storm.

    Johnson isn't in that category - he's never lost an election and I don't think he will take well to being unpopular, to being booed rather than cheered and heckled rather than applauded. He enjoys indeed revels in being liked and if he starts facing real hostility from the electorate we'll see what kind of Prime Minister he really is.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    eek said:

    Nurses will need above inflation pay rises.

    Like, definitely. Need?
    eek said:

    It's either triple lock or printing money.

    Printing money causes higher inflation - so....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Also the freddie sayers guy is a decent interviewer. Seems reasonably well informed, asks sensible questions and most importantly lets the people answer.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    RobD said:

    .

    IshmaelZ said:
    He was present but not involved. Surely the Guardian appreciate the difference? :smiley:
    The official government statement said that Cummings gave 'help' with 'problems in Whitehall'. Someone's not being straight with us here.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    stodge said:

    dixiedean said:


    Difficult decisions will have to be made. Some very painful. Keeping the Triple Lock or imposing a pay freeze on nurses??

    Sometimes the dice don't fall your way and you have to make a decision which while the right decision is going to be very unpopular especially with your core voting constituency.

    The serious politician will take that decision and accept the storm.

    Johnson isn't in that category - he's never lost an election and I don't think he will take well to being unpopular, to being booed rather than cheered and heckled rather than applauded. He enjoys indeed revels in being liked and if he starts facing real hostility from the electorate we'll see what kind of Prime Minister he really is.
    A former Prime Minister would be an appropriate sort.

    Depending on who replaces him, of course.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Just checked the Swedish ONS equivalent https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subject-area/population/population-composition/population-statistics/

    They haven't updated their 2020 death figures from the previous week
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Pulpstar said:

    Which elements of lockdown aren't sustainable - genuine question. Is it the social ones or the economic ones ?
    I'm probably not going to visit a pub or a restaurant (Except to pick up takeout) till a vaccine is in or the virus is eliminated.
    I'd like to visit my parents at some point mind.

    Yes, I'm of a similar mind. I can work at home and my employers seem quite comfortable to let me continue to do so. I'll be pleased to see my local Chinese takeaway open for deliveries and when the Racing Post comes back I shall venture to the local paper shop but social distancing isn't going to go away for a long time to come.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Cummings is defo a guy for campaigns. Less so for Gov't - can't he be ascribed a job to sort out the Ministry of Defence that he was going to do. Not particularly comfortable with him overseeing or whatnot SAGE - though I don't think the man on the clapham omnibus will give a monkeys about it.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Socky said:

    eek said:

    Nurses will need above inflation pay rises.

    Like, definitely. Need?
    eek said:

    It's either triple lock or printing money.

    Printing money causes higher inflation - so....
    You have the idea that inflation is going to be avoidable.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    No wonder the UW model is bollocks. An integral part of it is a formula which they created empirically from chinese data....
This discussion has been closed.