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  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Just been out to clap for key workers, at Chubb, Yale and Timpsons.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    dr_spyn said:

    Just been out to clap for key workers, at Chubb, Yale and Timpsons.

    I might open my front door in half an hour or so and give a few claps. Have a meal to finish first.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    blairf said:

    Silver lining alert.

    Tax dodging fuckery will be punished. In the court of public opinion, and then by legislation. I get a *very* strong sense that when governments around the world survey the fiscal carnage, and with the wind of public opinion in their sales, they will decide we are done with Channel Isles, BVI, Belize and the shower of sharp suited, avaricious, and venal leeches that go with them. Sell Panama, Gibralter and Isle of Man property. There is reckoning coming.

    I'll believe it when they go after Delaware...

    Motes & beams:

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/wealth-management/121515/top-10-european-tax-havens.asp
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    blairf said:

    Silver lining alert.

    Tax dodging fuckery will be punished. In the court of public opinion, and then by legislation. I get a *very* strong sense that when governments around the world survey the fiscal carnage, and with the wind of public opinion in their sales, they will decide we are done with Channel Isles, BVI, Belize and the shower of sharp suited, avaricious, and venal leeches that go with them. Sell Panama, Gibralter and Isle of Man property. There is reckoning coming.

    Good.
    I second that, but I doubt it'll happen. My assumption is that tax havens are preserved because they are net positives to the governments that maintain them. Bermuda and its incredible percentage of the global (re)insurance market springs to mind.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    rcs1000 said:

    Just looking at the Italian numbers, it's fascinating the major differences between the places.

    Large parts of the South are recording just one, or a couple, of CV-19 cases a day. Lazio, which contains Rome, has fallen to 79 a day, and looks on track to be in single digits in a week or two. And Veneto, which had been an early hotspot, appears to have things broadly under control.

    But Lombardy is still a total disaster. Lombardy is about one sixth the population of Italy, but is still recording close to half of the cases. And sure, numbers have fallen by 60% from the peak. But they simply aren't falling as fast there than in other parts of the country.

    And in Lombardy the lockdown is very severe
    And has gone on for longer
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    I have just purchased a gift card for my local (closed obviously) pub. Budweiser are doing a Save Pub Life scheme, where they will double your gift card donation. When the pubs reopen you get to spend your voucher, in the meantime the pub gets double your donation in cash up front to try and help them weather the storm.

    https://savepublife.com/

    I suggested weeks back a similar scheme for restaurants. Some said great idea, others said bugger off - if I am handing over money, I want food for it....
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    rcs1000 said:

    Just looking at the Italian numbers, it's fascinating the major differences between the places.

    Large parts of the South are recording just one, or a couple, of CV-19 cases a day. Lazio, which contains Rome, has fallen to 79 a day, and looks on track to be in single digits in a week or two. And Veneto, which had been an early hotspot, appears to have things broadly under control.

    But Lombardy is still a total disaster. Lombardy is about one sixth the population of Italy, but is still recording close to half of the cases. And sure, numbers have fallen by 60% from the peak. But they simply aren't falling as fast there than in other parts of the country.

    That's what you'd expect, though, no? If lots of people are infected in your vicinity, your chance of catching it is far higher, and preventing spread is far harder. The big problem is if it successfully spreads to a new area and starts the whole business over again.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    I reckon the one in the checked shirt is definitely these shady middle me trying to flog PPE...

    https://twitter.com/Royal_FamilyUK/status/1253398930689339393?s=19
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    maaarsh said:

    Becoming increasingly clear the limiting factor on hitting 100k daily tests is demand for the tests rather than supply - given the government are doubling down on the target we can expect to see some pretty odd trends in the daily tests with demand piled up on certain days to try and get them over the line, leading to some much lower days as well

    I don't think that's necessarily true. A lot of the people who'll be wanting these tests aren't well enough to drive to the test centres and they're often located so far away that the users are dissuaded from attending them by the sheer length of the journey.

    There are no test centres in Norfolk, for example. People there are being told to drive to Sheffield instead, which is bloody ridiculous.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Future PM is Mr Yorkshire Tea. He speaks human.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2020
    Could the reason for the disparity in Eastern and Western Europe be...

    Chinese immigration levels?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    isam said:

    Could the reason for the disparity in Eastern and Western Europe be...

    Chinese immigration levels?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese

    Isn't it simply that it started earlier in western europe, but the restrictions on social distancing were made roughly at the same time?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    maaarsh said:

    Becoming increasingly clear the limiting factor on hitting 100k daily tests is demand for the tests rather than supply - given the government are doubling down on the target we can expect to see some pretty odd trends in the daily tests with demand piled up on certain days to try and get them over the line, leading to some much lower days as well

    I don't think that's necessarily true. A lot of the people who'll be wanting these tests aren't well enough to drive to the test centres and they're often located so far away that the users are dissuaded from attending them by the sheer length of the journey.

    There are no test centres in Norfolk, for example. People there are being told to drive to Sheffield instead, which is bloody ridiculous.
    First time i have seen a map of where all the test centres are. I have a feeling whoever came up with the locations hasn't spent much time outside London...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11465869/millions-of-key-workers-coronavirus-tests-matt-hancock/
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    rcs1000 said:

    Just looking at the Italian numbers, it's fascinating the major differences between the places.

    Large parts of the South are recording just one, or a couple, of CV-19 cases a day. Lazio, which contains Rome, has fallen to 79 a day, and looks on track to be in single digits in a week or two. And Veneto, which had been an early hotspot, appears to have things broadly under control.

    But Lombardy is still a total disaster. Lombardy is about one sixth the population of Italy, but is still recording close to half of the cases. And sure, numbers have fallen by 60% from the peak. But they simply aren't falling as fast there than in other parts of the country.

    That's what you'd expect, though, no? If lots of people are infected in your vicinity, your chance of catching it is far higher, and preventing spread is far harder. The big problem is if it successfully spreads to a new area and starts the whole business over again.
    Viruses can only infect by human to human contact, Lombardy has been under strict lockdown for weeks. How is it spreading to the extent that it is ?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    isam said:

    Could the reason for the disparity in Eastern and Western Europe be...

    Chinese immigration levels?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese

    No.

    Was that a joke or are you just trolling?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Foxy said:


    There does appear to be increasing cases of COVID-19 causing sudden death (perhaps from myocarditis and dysrhythmia) with few respiratory symptoms, particularly in the very elderly.

    The distinction between dying of covid-19 and dying with COVID-19 is pretty meaningless. Just look at the patterns of excess deaths.

    The debate isn't being driven by anything that sophisticated. Legions of people with basic Excel skills are driving the debate with lines on charts comparing one batch of dodgy data against another and probably manipulating the outcome to support the argument they are expounding.

    The daily death toll has taken on an almost totemic significance yet we have no idea how many people have had the virus. The death rate among confirmed cases is 13.6% but no one believes that is the true figure because no one knows how many people have had the virus in a mild form and not bothered reporting it let alone those who are asymptomatic.

    I have often said on here I am amazed only by the depths of my own ignorance - I think we should all be amazed by the lack of quality information we have on this virus.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    You couldn't make it up....

    Special Report: Former Labradoodle breeder was tapped to lead U.S. pandemic task force

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-hhschief-speci/special-report-hhs-chief-azar-had-aide-former-dog-breeder-steer-pandemic-task-force-idUSKCN2243CE
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    maaarsh said:

    Becoming increasingly clear the limiting factor on hitting 100k daily tests is demand for the tests rather than supply - given the government are doubling down on the target we can expect to see some pretty odd trends in the daily tests with demand piled up on certain days to try and get them over the line, leading to some much lower days as well

    I don't think that's necessarily true. A lot of the people who'll be wanting these tests aren't well enough to drive to the test centres and they're often located so far away that the users are dissuaded from attending them by the sheer length of the journey.

    There are no test centres in Norfolk, for example. People there are being told to drive to Sheffield instead, which is bloody ridiculous.
    First time i have seen a map of where all the test centres are. I have a feeling whoever came up with the locations hasn't spent much time outside London...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11465869/millions-of-key-workers-coronavirus-tests-matt-hancock/
    Well quite. Not nearly enough of the things, and a suspiciously large number clustered around the M25. Quelle surprise.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    alterego said:


    I think there are more variations to the dying of/ with issue, e.g. primary cause, significant issue (how significant?) Dying needs all the data needed to enable analysis and I'm not sure that's being collected

    The problem is, and not for the first time, public debate is being conducted against a background of missing or poor information.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Genuinely surprised at Starmer's numbers. Seems the Labour brand is tarnished beyond what a new leader can do to revive it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.
  • blairfblairf Posts: 98

    blairf said:

    Silver lining alert.

    Tax dodging fuckery will be punished. In the court of public opinion, and then by legislation. I get a *very* strong sense that when governments around the world survey the fiscal carnage, and with the wind of public opinion in their sales, they will decide we are done with Channel Isles, BVI, Belize and the shower of sharp suited, avaricious, and venal leeches that go with them. Sell Panama, Gibralter and Isle of Man property. There is reckoning coming.

    I'll believe it when they go after Delaware...

    Motes & beams:

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/wealth-management/121515/top-10-european-tax-havens.asp
    tax wrappers, secrecy, and such like will go. I do believe this. Put justice and morality to one side for now, the world can't afford this nonsense. Luxembourg should be a middling to low affluent town in the Lorraine. London and Delaware are less clear cut to me. The problem they have is transparency. Neither should be the go-to venue for corrupt tax-dodging smart asses.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    felix said:

    I Teach At Oxford, But I Don’t Want It To Win The Coronavirus Vaccine Race

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/coronavirus-vaccine_uk_5ea067f2c5b6b2e5b83ba372

    We will stick you right at the back of the queue, take ticket #7,779,732,202...that ok with you love?

    I think the word needed is: 'Unspoofable'. WTF!
    The logical fail is that she worries that if Oxford develops it Brits will presumably be prioritised.

    Once would assume that if Ruritania develops it then Ruritanians would be prioritised.

    Implicitly she wants more Brits to die
    Is she saying that? I read it as more that the Oxford-educated politicians would present it as a national triumph whereas the Oxford scientists readily aknowledge they are part of an international research effort.
    “Researchers have also warned that this [production shortages] will lead to rich countries hoarding supplies. We were too late when it came to stockpiling PPE, but we won’t be caught out again. The vaccine, developed by our finest brains, is ours. And it will be Britons who are prioritised for protection.”

    The implication of what she is saying is she’d rather (a) somewhere else developed it (b) it belonged to someone else; and (c) Britons would NOT be prioritised for protection.
    If the British taxpayer pays for it don't they deserve to get it first?
    Before we get all Jingoistic, lets remember that there's no guarantee that any of the many teams developing vaccines will be successful. Also that there are some that are a bit ahead of the Oxford team. Even if we are successful here before other countries do we have the ability to mass produce it here?
    It's a world problem and we need to cheer on all the teams no matter from which country - it would be good for the UK to get there first but that is only a minor point.
    I’m not being jingoistic. But I am questioning the original authors assertion
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I would like to take it all back about other countries Statistical Offices.

    Austria offer a full web browser based OLAP data cube. Holy shit this is good.

    Unfortunately their death statistics only go up to the 5th of April
  • dr_spyn said:

    Just been out to clap for key workers, at Chubb, Yale and Timpsons.

    Is there a clap every Thursday? Until the lockdown ends? FFS
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited April 2020
    Politico goes there...

    Study: Elderly Trump voters dying of coronavirus could cost him in November
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/23/how-coronavirus-could-upend-2020-battlegrounds-204708
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    <
    First time i have seen a map of where all the test centres are. I have a feeling whoever came up with the locations hasn't spent much time outside London...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11465869/millions-of-key-workers-coronavirus-tests-matt-hancock/

    Well quite. Not nearly enough of the things, and a suspiciously large number clustered around the M25. Quelle surprise.
    Of course, being the Currant Bun, the story is completely wrong in so many respects.

    I must confess the notion of there being 7 million key workers rather surprised me but okay.

    The Government website tells a slightly different story:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-testing-extended-to-all-essential-workers-in-england-who-have-symptoms

    You can only be tested if you are showing symptoms - it;s NOT a facility for well people to go and get a test to confirm they are well.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    stodge said:

    <
    First time i have seen a map of where all the test centres are. I have a feeling whoever came up with the locations hasn't spent much time outside London...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11465869/millions-of-key-workers-coronavirus-tests-matt-hancock/

    Well quite. Not nearly enough of the things, and a suspiciously large number clustered around the M25. Quelle surprise.
    Of course, being the Currant Bun, the story is completely wrong in so many respects.

    I must confess the notion of there being 7 million key workers rather surprised me but okay.

    The Government website tells a slightly different story:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-testing-extended-to-all-essential-workers-in-england-who-have-symptoms

    You can only be tested if you are showing symptoms - it;s NOT a facility for well people to go and get a test to confirm they are well.

    Is the map of testing locations incorrect though?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Alistair said:

    I would like to take it all back about other countries Statistical Offices.

    Austria offer a full web browser based OLAP data cube. Holy shit this is good.

    Unfortunately their death statistics only go up to the 5th of April

    No link? :D
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Needless to say, we can rely on The Sun to exaggerate a story that looks good for the Government but their take on Hancock's testing pledge is absurd:

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-getting-tested#essential-workers

    That's the list of essential workers - 7 million apparently - but it doesn't say anything about their families being included. It also confirms you need to be showing symptoms.

    No wonder trust in newspaper journalists is so low - the only newspaper I'm missing is the Racing Post.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    stodge said:

    <
    First time i have seen a map of where all the test centres are. I have a feeling whoever came up with the locations hasn't spent much time outside London...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11465869/millions-of-key-workers-coronavirus-tests-matt-hancock/

    Well quite. Not nearly enough of the things, and a suspiciously large number clustered around the M25. Quelle surprise.
    Of course, being the Currant Bun, the story is completely wrong in so many respects.

    I must confess the notion of there being 7 million key workers rather surprised me but okay.

    The Government website tells a slightly different story:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-testing-extended-to-all-essential-workers-in-england-who-have-symptoms

    You can only be tested if you are showing symptoms - it;s NOT a facility for well people to go and get a test to confirm they are well.
    FWIW I was concerned with the location of the test centres, not with the veracity or otherwise of The Sun's story (which I've not read - it was introduced into the thread by another poster.)

    If there are an insufficient number of the things and they're scattered around piecemeal, then those who live far away from them and are told to make anything up to a two or three hundred mile round trip to attend one clearly aren't going to bother.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    He has a good pedigree, I am sure he will sniff out a cure.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    stodge said:

    Needless to say, we can rely on The Sun to exaggerate a story that looks good for the Government but their take on Hancock's testing pledge is absurd:

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-getting-tested#essential-workers

    That's the list of essential workers - 7 million apparently - but it doesn't say anything about their families being included. It also confirms you need to be showing symptoms.

    No wonder trust in newspaper journalists is so low - the only newspaper I'm missing is the Racing Post.

    Didn't he say in the briefing it was open to the families as well?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    stodge said:

    Needless to say, we can rely on The Sun to exaggerate a story that looks good for the Government but their take on Hancock's testing pledge is absurd:

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-getting-tested#essential-workers

    That's the list of essential workers - 7 million apparently - but it doesn't say anything about their families being included. It also confirms you need to be showing symptoms.

    No wonder trust in newspaper journalists is so low - the only newspaper I'm missing is the Racing Post.

    The Sun is a newspaper ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2020
    kamski said:

    isam said:

    Could the reason for the disparity in Eastern and Western Europe be...

    Chinese immigration levels?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese

    No.

    Was that a joke or are you just trolling?
    It was neither a joke nor trolling, it was a suggestion

    Look at the list of European countries by Chinese population. Probably a coincidence, but they seem to match with the covid deaths per million
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    Where are they building it / do you have a link?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Foxy said:

    He has a good pedigree, I am sure he will sniff out a cure.
    Let’s not be poopers about the scoop.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
    A sort of quizzical look of are you serious and diplomatic answer about good job government forward thinking before CV about producing such a facility.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    RobD said:


    Didn't he say in the briefing it was open to the families as well?

    I don't watch the daily briefings - I've better things to do with my time. I'm only reading what it says on the gov.uk website.

    I question the Sun's notions the categories of essential workers add up to 7 million which would be more than 20% of the UK workforce.

    They are desperate to get Hancock's promise of 100,000 tests per day by the end of the month over the line. We reached the heady heights of 23,560 tests yesterday so some way to go.

    That doesn't mean testing 100,000 people per day - that's tests so 10,000 people tested 10 times each meets the target.

    At the moment the capacity to test 100,000 people doesn't yet exist - we'll see if and when it does how many dash out from the safety of their homes to the testing centres.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
    A sort of quizzical look of are you serious and diplomatic answer about good job government forward thinking before CV about producing such a facility.
    Even a million doses would be enough to vaccinate a good chunk of front line clinical staff.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Charles said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    Where are they building it / do you have a link?
    I believe it is this,

    https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/health-and-safety/vaccine-production-facility-build-fast-tracked-21-04-2020/
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    I don't know if this has been posted already, but yet more news that existing exposure to the SARS-CoV-2 virus is way broader than official testing numbers suggest:

    Cuomo Says 21% of Those Tested in N.Y.C. Had Virus Antibodies: Live Updates

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-new-york-update.html
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    He has a good pedigree, I am sure he will sniff out a cure.
    Let’s not be poopers about the scoop.
    I predict a dog's dinner...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    stodge said:

    RobD said:


    Didn't he say in the briefing it was open to the families as well?

    I don't watch the daily briefings - I've better things to do with my time. I'm only reading what it says on the gov.uk website.

    I question the Sun's notions the categories of essential workers add up to 7 million which would be more than 20% of the UK workforce.

    They are desperate to get Hancock's promise of 100,000 tests per day by the end of the month over the line. We reached the heady heights of 23,560 tests yesterday so some way to go.

    That doesn't mean testing 100,000 people per day - that's tests so 10,000 people tested 10 times each meets the target.

    At the moment the capacity to test 100,000 people doesn't yet exist - we'll see if and when it does how many dash out from the safety of their homes to the testing centres.
    In the briefing it is clearly stated that members of the household of key workers are eligible.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Nigelb said:

    Politico goes there...

    Study: Elderly Trump voters dying of coronavirus could cost him in November
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/23/how-coronavirus-could-upend-2020-battlegrounds-204708

    He deserves it even if they don't.

    Mind you, in many states the dead vote....
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Why have Eastern European countries had so few covid deaths?

    Vitamin D from doctors?
    TB jabs?
    Dare I say... not many BAME? That would apply to Russia though, and they’ve done badly

    Average life expectancy in Eastern Europe is under 80, in Western Europe it is over 80
    I don’t think that can be it. The 70 year old, frail Eastern Europeans would be getting it at the rate of our 75 year olds wouldn’t they?
    Well maybe not if the reason more people are making it past 80 in western Europe is that in western Europe we have got a lot better at keeping people alive with conditions that people don't survive as long with in places with lower life expectancy.

    IF that is what's happening, and those same conditions make you more likely to die of Covid, then you've got more people likely to die.

    HYUFD's formula is a bit simplistic but there's something in it. Even though I don't see it explaining most of the difference between eastern and western Europe
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    Where are they building it / do you have a link?
    I believe it is this,

    https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/health-and-safety/vaccine-production-facility-build-fast-tracked-21-04-2020/
    I’d forgotten they were doing that to be honest. Spent more time at the Sanger.

    To be fair to the government (heavily pushed by David Willetts - remember him) we have a number of institutes they have been funding in a very serious way
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
    A sort of quizzical look of are you serious and diplomatic answer about good job government forward thinking before CV about producing such a facility.
    Even a million doses would be enough to vaccinate a good chunk of front line clinical staff.
    Its like they think this stuff is similar to launching a new Lynx shower gel SKU.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    I dont mean to be down on it, but the pictures again of so many people doing their clap for carers not exactly social distanced or masked.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
    A sort of quizzical look of are you serious and diplomatic answer about good job government forward thinking before CV about producing such a facility.
    Even a million doses would be enough to vaccinate a good chunk of front line clinical staff.
    Its like they think this stuff is similar to launching a new Lynx shower gel SKU.
    Glad to overhear today on my dog walk two separate couples saying how they're not interested in the news at the moment.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    He has a good pedigree, I am sure he will sniff out a cure.
    Let’s not be poopers about the scoop.
    I predict a dog's dinner...
    He will be like a dog with a bone, once he gets the scent.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
    A sort of quizzical look of are you serious and diplomatic answer about good job government forward thinking before CV about producing such a facility.
    Even a million doses would be enough to vaccinate a good chunk of front line clinical staff.
    Its like they think this stuff is similar to launching a new Lynx shower gel SKU.
    Glad to overhear today on my dog walk two separate couples saying how they're not interested in the news at the moment.

    One can hardly blame them.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    https://twitter.com/ElissaGow/status/1253211632471117824?s=20
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Order of priorities:

    1. Signal virtue
    2. Stay the fuck at home *unless* it gets in the way of signalling virtue
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
    A sort of quizzical look of are you serious and diplomatic answer about good job government forward thinking before CV about producing such a facility.
    Even a million doses would be enough to vaccinate a good chunk of front line clinical staff.
    Its like they think this stuff is similar to launching a new Lynx shower gel SKU.
    Glad to overhear today on my dog walk two separate couples saying how they're not interested in the news at the moment.

    Just watched the Beechgrove Garden (BBC Scotland) broadcast from the presenters' homes. It was amateurish but engaging and imo an improvement on the usual slickly produced gardening programmes. More of that please, when things are back to normal!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    A close friend of my late father in law died from the virus yesterday. He was another of that generation who came to the UK from India in the 60s to give his family the opportunity for a better life.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone else getting a bit tired of this sort of thing? I think we can safely say places of worship will not be closed forever.

    "Muslim Council of Britain warns UK mosques could close forever"

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-muslim-council-of-britain-warns-uk-mosques-could-close-forever-11977758

    Some might. There are plenty of former churches around that now serve as homes, offices or even mosques. They won't close en masse of course but there might be some that are marginal.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    rcs1000 said:

    Just looking at the Italian numbers, it's fascinating the major differences between the places.

    Large parts of the South are recording just one, or a couple, of CV-19 cases a day. Lazio, which contains Rome, has fallen to 79 a day, and looks on track to be in single digits in a week or two. And Veneto, which had been an early hotspot, appears to have things broadly under control.

    But Lombardy is still a total disaster. Lombardy is about one sixth the population of Italy, but is still recording close to half of the cases. And sure, numbers have fallen by 60% from the peak. But they simply aren't falling as fast there than in other parts of the country.

    And in Lombardy the lockdown is very severe
    I suspect that, when antibody tests are done, that Lombardy will end up with New York City level infection rates of 20-30%.

    Lockdown works well when you have sub 5% of people infected. It's much harder when a quarter of people have it. Because there are so many carriers.

    Still, I think we also have to recognise that there was massive undercounting before.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Charles said:

    felix said:

    I Teach At Oxford, But I Don’t Want It To Win The Coronavirus Vaccine Race

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/coronavirus-vaccine_uk_5ea067f2c5b6b2e5b83ba372

    We will stick you right at the back of the queue, take ticket #7,779,732,202...that ok with you love?

    I think the word needed is: 'Unspoofable'. WTF!
    The logical fail is that she worries that if Oxford develops it Brits will presumably be prioritised.

    Once would assume that if Ruritania develops it then Ruritanians would be prioritised.

    Implicitly she wants more Brits to die
    Is she saying that? I read it as more that the Oxford-educated politicians would present it as a national triumph whereas the Oxford scientists readily aknowledge they are part of an international research effort.
    It seems like a quandry that can wait, frankly, and is a rather strange concern.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
    A sort of quizzical look of are you serious and diplomatic answer about good job government forward thinking before CV about producing such a facility.
    Even a million doses would be enough to vaccinate a good chunk of front line clinical staff.
    Its like they think this stuff is similar to launching a new Lynx shower gel SKU.
    Glad to overhear today on my dog walk two separate couples saying how they're not interested in the news at the moment.

    One can hardly blame them.
    I only listen to music on the radio, and avoid the TV news. There is enough covid talk for anyone on here.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    FFS Sky already criticising why is the advanced production facility to make vaccines on the scale of 100s million going to take 12 months to build (and construction is underway)....erhhh cos its like a bit more complicated this stuff than sticking a microphone in somebodies face and asking dumb questions.

    I'm actually impressed that construction is underway!
    From what i understand this was already in the works. But the journalist critical question of why even at the accelerated pace will it not be able to produce 70 million doses until next summer.
    What did the person being interviewed say? :p
    A sort of quizzical look of are you serious and diplomatic answer about good job government forward thinking before CV about producing such a facility.
    Even a million doses would be enough to vaccinate a good chunk of front line clinical staff.
    Its like they think this stuff is similar to launching a new Lynx shower gel SKU.
    Glad to overhear today on my dog walk two separate couples saying how they're not interested in the news at the moment.

    One can hardly blame them.
    I only listen to music on the radio, and avoid the TV news. There is enough covid talk for anyone on here.
    The TV News isn't all bad. They still have weather forecasts.


    (Predictive text suggested 'weapons' rather than weather!)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    Looks like they approached the situation calmly, explained it at length and gave those present multiple opportunities to comply. Assuming in asking them to leave the police were correct on what the rules were, it does look reasonably handled.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    dr_spyn said:

    Just been out to clap for key workers, at Chubb, Yale and Timpsons.

    Is there a clap every Thursday? Until the lockdown ends? FFS
    Nice gesture and all, but that is something else that won't be sustainable long term.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    kle4 said:

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    Looks like they approached the situation calmly, explained it at length and gave those present multiple opportunities to comply. Assuming in asking them to leave the police were correct on what the rules were, it does look reasonably handled.
    See above. The "arrested mother" is an anti-vaxxer characterised as Buzzfeed as "far right"...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    I would like to take it all back about other countries Statistical Offices.

    Austria offer a full web browser based OLAP data cube. Holy shit this is good.

    Unfortunately their death statistics only go up to the 5th of April

    No link? :D
    It's all mine.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Endillion said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Help. I can no longer tell what's satire and what's real.
    Three hundred years later and critics are still divided about whether Daniel Defoe's The Shortest Way with the Dissenters; Or, Proposals for the Establishment of the Church was intended as satire!

    Defoe was prompted to write the pamphlet by the increased hostility towards Dissenters in the wake of the accession of Queen Anne to the throne.

    It is written in the same style as the Tory publications that attacked Dissenters, and was assumed by some people to be a genuine vindication of their view. The pamphlet raised embarrassing questions about the handling of the issue by the Tory ministry, and led to Defoe's arrest for seditious libel. His imprisonment, during which he fell into bankruptcy, was to have a lasting influence on his subsequent writings. . ...

    The Shortest Way has traditionally been classified as a satire, although this has been disputed by scholars. Miriam Laurenbaum has suggested that it is instead a form of hoax or "banter", and that Defoe does not use many of the features necessary for it to be considered a true satire. Paul Alkon describes the critical tradition surrounding the work as "asking mainly whether it is inadequate irony, deficient satire, or misused impersonation." Ashley Marshall suggests that "The Shortest-Way is best understood not as insufficiently ironic but as a counterfeit, an intentional fake not meant to be decoded."

    The difficulty for Defoe's contemporaries in assessing whether the work was ironic was the proximity of the speaker's voice to that of the High Anglicans whose views are being ridiculed. The pamphlet mixes both real observation and fabrication, and assumes the rhetorical style of his target. Defoe uses and imitates the language and metaphor of fanatical churchman, particularly Sacheverell's sermons; the speaker's comparison of the Dissenters to vipers is one that Sacheverell often made. ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    He has a good pedigree, I am sure he will sniff out a cure.
    Let’s not be poopers about the scoop.
    I predict a dog's dinner...
    He will be like a dog with a bone, once he gets the scent.
    Clearly only given the most cur-sorry vetting, though.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    kle4 said:

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    Looks like they approached the situation calmly, explained it at length and gave those present multiple opportunities to comply. Assuming in asking them to leave the police were correct on what the rules were, it does look reasonably handled.
    Violation of US police procedure. They should have shot her 45* times for thinking loudly about resisting arrest.

    *15 round mags - 2 reloads
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2020
    @RobD

    I was looking at deaths here - https://www.statistik.at/web_en/statistics/PeopleSociety/population/deaths/index.html

    Click on the "Stat Databases" tab and then the dataset you want and then you are off to OLAP heaven.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    kle4 said:

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    Looks like they approached the situation calmly, explained it at length and gave those present multiple opportunities to comply. Assuming in asking them to leave the police were correct on what the rules were, it does look reasonably handled.
    Violation of US police procedure. They should have shot her 45* times for thinking loudly about resisting arrest.

    *15 round mags - 2 reloads
    They were white. Important consideration.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    DougSeal said:


    Scientific feuding is the best.

    But not ideal in the present circumstances.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    DougSeal said:

    Favourite quote from a lecturer when I did a chemistry degree.

    "When I started I thought chemistry was a mass of unrelated facts. I later came to realise it is a mass of unrelated theories."

    I think the criticism of the government, SAGE and PHE (in particular) is justified - but the buck stops with the government.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    kle4 said:

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    Looks like they approached the situation calmly, explained it at length and gave those present multiple opportunities to comply. Assuming in asking them to leave the police were correct on what the rules were, it does look reasonably handled.
    See above. The "arrested mother" is an anti-vaxxer characterised as Buzzfeed as "far right"...
    Making the police action even more reasonable as an escalation was clearly wanted, but the police made clear they did not escalate it.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    Endillion said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Help. I can no longer tell what's satire and what's real.
    Three hundred years later and critics are still divided about whether Daniel Defoe's The Shortest Way with the Dissenters; Or, Proposals for the Establishment of the Church was intended as satire!

    Defoe was prompted to write the pamphlet by the increased hostility towards Dissenters in the wake of the accession of Queen Anne to the throne.

    It is written in the same style as the Tory publications that attacked Dissenters, and was assumed by some people to be a genuine vindication of their view. The pamphlet raised embarrassing questions about the handling of the issue by the Tory ministry, and led to Defoe's arrest for seditious libel. His imprisonment, during which he fell into bankruptcy, was to have a lasting influence on his subsequent writings. . ...

    The Shortest Way has traditionally been classified as a satire, although this has been disputed by scholars. Miriam Laurenbaum has suggested that it is instead a form of hoax or "banter", and that Defoe does not use many of the features necessary for it to be considered a true satire. Paul Alkon describes the critical tradition surrounding the work as "asking mainly whether it is inadequate irony, deficient satire, or misused impersonation." Ashley Marshall suggests that "The Shortest-Way is best understood not as insufficiently ironic but as a counterfeit, an intentional fake not meant to be decoded."

    The difficulty for Defoe's contemporaries in assessing whether the work was ironic was the proximity of the speaker's voice to that of the High Anglicans whose views are being ridiculed. The pamphlet mixes both real observation and fabrication, and assumes the rhetorical style of his target. Defoe uses and imitates the language and metaphor of fanatical churchman, particularly Sacheverell's sermons; the speaker's comparison of the Dissenters to vipers is one that Sacheverell often made. ...
    Also, we think we have got Culture Wars over culture/satire now, but back then it seems they took things a bit more seriously!!

    Upon its publication, The Shortest Way provoked immediate and passionate reactions from both sides of the debate. Some made use of it as a genuine vindication of the anti-Dissenter opinion, although speculation later occurred over whether it was ironic. The pamphlet generated a great deal of publicity over the handling of the issue by the Tory ministry. This resulted in the issuing of a warrant by the High Tory Secretary of State for the Southern Department, the Earl of Nottingham, for the arrest of Defoe on the charge of seditious libel, the order being given to "… make Strict and diligent Search for Daniel Fooe* and him having found you are to apprehend and seize together with his Papers for high Crime and misdemeanours and to bring him before me …"

    Defoe was finally imprisoned on 21 May 1703, after avoiding his summons and evading capture. He was fined, made to stand in the pillory on three occasions and remained in prison till November; in the meantime, his business affairs sank into ruin. ... The suspected involvement of the Tory Speaker of the House, Robert Harley, in obtaining the release of Defoe is credited as the beginning of their professional relationship, in which Defoe worked as a propagandist for Harley, after he succeeded Nottingham as Secretary of State in 1704.

    Modern scholarly reception has considered The Shortest Way in negative terms, as a failed satire, or as using irony so slight as to be undetectable. Such a conclusion cites the contemporary reaction to the work, how it failed to deliver its objectives and also caused its author such problems. If critics have offered praise, it is the extent to which Defoe managed to impersonate the style of his subjects, so as to be indistinguishable from them. The Shortest Way is frequently contrasted with another work of irony in the 18th century, which is considered to have succeeded in its use of the device, Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal (1729).


    * Not a weird typo, rather he'd added the "De-" to sound more aristocratic!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    Future PM is Mr Yorkshire Tea. He speaks human.
    Tony Blair did a Comic Relief sketch with Tony Blair. Have there been any others?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    DougSeal said:


    I'm surprised they should be so surprised. They've ended up with a consensus opinion, but it won't be a universal one.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Endillion said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Help. I can no longer tell what's satire and what's real.
    Three hundred years later and critics are still divided about whether Daniel Defoe's The Shortest Way with the Dissenters; Or, Proposals for the Establishment of the Church was intended as satire!

    Defoe was prompted to write the pamphlet by the increased hostility towards Dissenters in the wake of the accession of Queen Anne to the throne.

    It is written in the same style as the Tory publications that attacked Dissenters, and was assumed by some people to be a genuine vindication of their view. The pamphlet raised embarrassing questions about the handling of the issue by the Tory ministry, and led to Defoe's arrest for seditious libel. His imprisonment, during which he fell into bankruptcy, was to have a lasting influence on his subsequent writings. . ...

    The Shortest Way has traditionally been classified as a satire, although this has been disputed by scholars. Miriam Laurenbaum has suggested that it is instead a form of hoax or "banter", and that Defoe does not use many of the features necessary for it to be considered a true satire. Paul Alkon describes the critical tradition surrounding the work as "asking mainly whether it is inadequate irony, deficient satire, or misused impersonation." Ashley Marshall suggests that "The Shortest-Way is best understood not as insufficiently ironic but as a counterfeit, an intentional fake not meant to be decoded."

    The difficulty for Defoe's contemporaries in assessing whether the work was ironic was the proximity of the speaker's voice to that of the High Anglicans whose views are being ridiculed. The pamphlet mixes both real observation and fabrication, and assumes the rhetorical style of his target. Defoe uses and imitates the language and metaphor of fanatical churchman, particularly Sacheverell's sermons; the speaker's comparison of the Dissenters to vipers is one that Sacheverell often made. ...
    An Irish Republican of my acquaintance* believed that -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

    was a literal, heartfelt plan and showed the true evil of the British. They planned to *eat* the Irish!!!!

    *He brought to mind the comment about the Miners Union leaders from the General Strike.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    edited April 2020
    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:


    Scientific feuding is the best.

    But not ideal in the present circumstances.
    Science is rarely about certainty. Debate is critical for scientific method to work.

    That doesn't match easily with the politics of certainty, where dissent is considered treachery.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    kle4 said:

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    Looks like they approached the situation calmly, explained it at length and gave those present multiple opportunities to comply. Assuming in asking them to leave the police were correct on what the rules were, it does look reasonably handled.
    See above. The "arrested mother" is an anti-vaxxer characterised as Buzzfeed as "far right"...
    The alt right, and increasingly the Republican Party, don't like science. Anti-vaxxers, climate change denialists, covid-sceptics. I do not think we have that phenomenon this side of the Atlantic, at least not yet. 30 or so years back, nor did America.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:


    Scientific feuding is the best.

    But not ideal in the present circumstances.
    Science is rarely about certainty. Debate is critical for scientific method to work.

    That doesn't match easily with the politics of certainty, where dissent is considered treachery.
    Dipping into the philosophy of science can be something of an eye-opener.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited April 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Jesus, FT shouldn't stick headlines like that up - thought the vaccine had failed for a second.

    Vaccines tend to work for viruses and antibiotics or bacteria. Rest mostly pain/sympton relief.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Future PM is Mr Yorkshire Tea. He speaks human.
    Tony Blair did a Comic Relief sketch with Tony Blair. Have there been any others?
    close your eyes and listen. Sunak sounds just like Blair. In accent as well as content.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    Looks like they approached the situation calmly, explained it at length and gave those present multiple opportunities to comply. Assuming in asking them to leave the police were correct on what the rules were, it does look reasonably handled.
    Violation of US police procedure. They should have shot her 45* times for thinking loudly about resisting arrest.

    *15 round mags - 2 reloads
    They were white. Important consideration.
    As an immortal philosopher of note related - "like, duh?"
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    Endillion said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Help. I can no longer tell what's satire and what's real.
    Three hundred years later and critics are still divided about whether Daniel Defoe's The Shortest Way with the Dissenters; Or, Proposals for the Establishment of the Church was intended as satire!

    Defoe was prompted to write the pamphlet by the increased hostility towards Dissenters in the wake of the accession of Queen Anne to the throne.

    It is written in the same style as the Tory publications that attacked Dissenters, and was assumed by some people to be a genuine vindication of their view. The pamphlet raised embarrassing questions about the handling of the issue by the Tory ministry, and led to Defoe's arrest for seditious libel. His imprisonment, during which he fell into bankruptcy, was to have a lasting influence on his subsequent writings. . ...

    The Shortest Way has traditionally been classified as a satire, although this has been disputed by scholars. Miriam Laurenbaum has suggested that it is instead a form of hoax or "banter", and that Defoe does not use many of the features necessary for it to be considered a true satire. Paul Alkon describes the critical tradition surrounding the work as "asking mainly whether it is inadequate irony, deficient satire, or misused impersonation." Ashley Marshall suggests that "The Shortest-Way is best understood not as insufficiently ironic but as a counterfeit, an intentional fake not meant to be decoded."

    The difficulty for Defoe's contemporaries in assessing whether the work was ironic was the proximity of the speaker's voice to that of the High Anglicans whose views are being ridiculed. The pamphlet mixes both real observation and fabrication, and assumes the rhetorical style of his target. Defoe uses and imitates the language and metaphor of fanatical churchman, particularly Sacheverell's sermons; the speaker's comparison of the Dissenters to vipers is one that Sacheverell often made. ...
    An Irish Republican of my acquaintance* believed that -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

    was a literal, heartfelt plan and showed the true evil of the British. They planned to *eat* the Irish!!!!

    *He brought to mind the comment about the Miners Union leaders from the General Strike.
    Hahaha!! Well if your satire-meter can't detect that, what can it pick up?

    By the way, what was the Miners Union comment, I'm sure I am aware but am having a blank moment!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    dr_spyn said:

    Just been out to clap for key workers, at Chubb, Yale and Timpsons.

    Is there a clap every Thursday? Until the lockdown ends? FFS

    dr_spyn said:

    Just been out to clap for key workers, at Chubb, Yale and Timpsons.

    Is there a clap every Thursday? Until the lockdown ends? FFS

    dr_spyn said:

    Just been out to clap for key workers, at Chubb, Yale and Timpsons.

    Is there a clap every Thursday? Until the lockdown ends? FFS
    I went out and clapped for a minute at 9.15 tonight - really just to see the reaction. Amused to see at least three sets of curtains twitching from neighbours with various people staring at me!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:


    Scientific feuding is the best.

    But not ideal in the present circumstances.
    Science is rarely about certainty. Debate is critical for scientific method to work.

    That doesn't match easily with the politics of certainty, where dissent is considered treachery.
    Many a beautiful theory has been destroyed by a single ugly fact.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707

    kle4 said:

    It makes a change to see a video of the US police arresting someone where you have sympathy with the police.

    https://twitter.com/scottiepipm/status/1253152043688230913?s=21

    Looks like they approached the situation calmly, explained it at length and gave those present multiple opportunities to comply. Assuming in asking them to leave the police were correct on what the rules were, it does look reasonably handled.
    See above. The "arrested mother" is an anti-vaxxer characterised as Buzzfeed as "far right"...
    The alt right, and increasingly the Republican Party, don't like science. Anti-vaxxers, climate change denialists, covid-sceptics. I do not think we have that phenomenon this side of the Atlantic, at least not yet. 30 or so years back, nor did America.
    Apart from the folk burning out 5G masts because of their "links" with coronavirus, contrails, Majestic 12 (Ok I made some of that up, but not enough).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1253423444206575623

    FT front page is fake-ish news. That is the Chinese study that they ended early because they didn't have any people. The full randomized complete set of trials in the US is still ongoing, but should report shortly. That's the big one, the first data leak from that was promising, but if that flops that is obviously not good news.
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