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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Perhaps Gove's ever present glasses act as Knickebein antennae.
    Though, my former Physics professor at Aberdeen University was RV Jones, who did do a lot of work on RADAR development during the second world war.
    More a Government Scientist advising the Air Min on science and intyelligence (akin to Dr Whitty these days if not at that grade) rather than doing the nitty gritty work at TRE, but he was indeed much involved with the development and use of radar. His autobiography is a great read.

    There can't be a link between radar andf Aberdeen as RV didn't go to Aberdeen till '46, when he was demobbed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Perhaps Gove's ever present glasses act as Knickebein antennae.
    Or a pair of Spanner-Anlagen in stereo ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It would face many difficult questions in any inquiry I would hope, whether it was acrimonious or not, or selse what would be the point of an inquiry. Facing difficult questions will not be th eissue, it will be whether they have answers, and whether those answers are reasonable for the situation they found themselves in, rather than an idealised scenario.
    Exactly. If 50/50 decisions had been made the other way, the Lobby hacks would just be screaming from a different direction. The important thing is that decisions were taken in good faith with the information known at the time.

    There appears to be very little evidence that that isn't what happened, in fact there were reports a few weeks ago that civil servants were refusing to get rid of processes and paperwork to speed things up - precisely because they know there's going to be an enquiry where every action will have to be justified afterwards with perfect hindsight.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    edited April 2020
    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Perhaps Gove's ever present glasses act as Knickebein antennae.
    Though, my former Physics professor at Aberdeen University was RV Jones, who did do a lot of work on RADAR development during the second world war.
    More a Government Scientist advising the Air Min on science and intyelligence (akin to Dr Whitty these days if not at that grade) rather than doing the nitty gritty work at TRE, but he was indeed much involved with the development and use of radar. His autobiography is a great read.

    There can't be a link between radar andf Aberdeen as RV didn't go to Aberdeen till '46, when he was demobbed.
    RV Jones was involved in the Battle of the Beams, frustrating Luftwaffe bomber navigation and in which an heroic role is played by the BBC, and which brings us back to Gove's quote and Knickebein antennae.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It would face many difficult questions in any inquiry I would hope, whether it was acrimonious or not, or selse what would be the point of an inquiry. Facing difficult questions will not be th eissue, it will be whether they have answers, and whether those answers are reasonable for the situation they found themselves in, rather than an idealised scenario.
    Incidentally this an immediate problem with the perception of many public inquiries, since a great many have already decided who is to blame and we scream whitewash if the situation is presented as more nuanced, and it causes problems with who chairs or is a member of an inquiry since deciding who is to 'blame' means various people are deemed unable to participate as too close to it. When I don't think I would very good at deciding who would make a good inquiry chair, and my preference should not be primary.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I’d have thought the understatement was Aberdonian, rather than the phrase, wouldn’t you?

    For instance I’d say you could show typical English understatement whilst speaking a phrase in French
    Perhaps from your deep well of cultural insight you can give me a break down on 'typical' Aberdonian understatement?
    No, I had assumed that was acknowledged as a thing, people from Aberdeen being understated. I’ve never heard of it.

    But it seems weird, I’d say incorrect, to criticise what he said as never being said by an Aberdonian, which is implicitly accepting there is such a phenomena, if there isn’t such a thing.
    I lived in Aberdeen from age 5-20 and have no recall of understatement being held up as a civic characteristic. In fact the pursuit of oil money and the vulgar excesses it was put to were the opposite of understated.
    Fair enough. In that case it was strange of the tweeter to focus on the Aberdonian or not nature of the phrase, rather than query the claim that there was a civic characteristic of understatement, to me
    It is Gove that is weird, he would be lucky to recognise an Aberdonian if he tripped over them.
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Is the phrase Aberdonian, or the scale of the understatement?
    His whole comment was utter bollox
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data



    Russia and India definitely look like the next big problem countries.
    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    lack of hospital care will also be a big factor based on volumes infected and beds / equipment available.
    We will see

    https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1251822078795362305?s=19
    They still need high flow oxygen or even normal oxygen treatment depending on severity, I see your medical knowledge is on a par with your Scottish knowledge.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data



    Russia and India definitely look like the next big problem countries.
    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    Facts only get you so far without the most rudimentary grasp of logic.

    Thought experiment: We have a hundred story building. Most people leave it by the ground floor, and are fine. Suicidal people sometimes jump off the roof and kill themselves. If we are considering the desirability of jumping from a 90th storey window, how strong an argument is: "The evidence globally is jumping from the roof is fatal, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that jumping from any storey above about the 4th is likely to be fatal, judging from what we know about gravity and human physiology, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet."?
    I only go on facts and evidence, I have no interest in random theories supposedly based on 'logic' but which have no evidence for them yet.

    Plus there have already been plenty of coronavirus cases in India, the evidence is India has a death rate per head lower than the West due to the fact it has fewer over 80s.

    In your example nobody had jumped from the 4th floor or higher, just from the roof

    So we would have no steer at all from anywhere as to the likely effects of jumping from the 98th floor.

    Got you.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    edited April 2020
    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data



    Russia and India definitely look like the next big problem countries.
    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    lack of hospital care will also be a big factor based on volumes infected and beds / equipment available.
    We will see

    https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1251822078795362305?s=19
    They still need high flow oxygen or even normal oxygen treatment depending on severity, I see your medical knowledge is on a par with your Scottish knowledge.
    Maybe but the verdict on the effectiveness of ventilators is still open
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Is there any actual evidence the NHS is 'short' of PPE?

    Are there any photos of key workers actually going in to work in overalls, jeans, bikinis or lingerie because they don't have protective equipment.

    are there any photos of empty or nearly empty PPE storage facilities, or a PPE black market where Barbour PPE (which is apparently brilliant) trades illicitly at a multiple of its face price?

    Or is is just another massive pile of media horseh8t?

    Well there was that “head of an NHS Trust” who turned out to be “part of a network sourcing PPE for the NHS” rather than actually, y’know, being the “head of an NHS trust”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data



    Russia and India definitely look like the next big problem countries.
    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    Facts only get you so far without the most rudimentary grasp of logic.

    Thought experiment: We have a hundred story building. Most people leave it by the ground floor, and are fine. Suicidal people sometimes jump off the roof and kill themselves. If we are considering the desirability of jumping from a 90th storey window, how strong an argument is: "The evidence globally is jumping from the roof is fatal, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that jumping from any storey above about the 4th is likely to be fatal, judging from what we know about gravity and human physiology, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet."?
    I only go on facts and evidence, I have no interest in random theories supposedly based on 'logic' but which have no evidence for them yet.

    Plus there have already been plenty of coronavirus cases in India, the evidence is India has a death rate per head lower than the West due to the fact it has fewer over 80s.

    In your example nobody had jumped from the 4th floor or higher, just from the roof
    So we would have no steer at all from anywhere as to the likely effects of jumping from the 98th floor.

    Got you.

    No but we do have steer from India where there have been multiple Covid 19 cases and a below average death rate per head, on your example nobody had jumped from the 98th floor at all
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    I'd be fascinated to know if there's a correlation between people who think China shouldn't be held to account for their lies, cover ups and propaganda, and those people who think our own government are doing an awful job and should be sacked on the spot.

    Why is it Sinophobic to criticise the Chinese government for their part in all this? Is it Anglophobic to criticise Boris Johnson or Matt Hancock?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    Charles said:

    Is there any actual evidence the NHS is 'short' of PPE?

    Are there any photos of key workers actually going in to work in overalls, jeans, bikinis or lingerie because they don't have protective equipment.

    are there any photos of empty or nearly empty PPE storage facilities, or a PPE black market where Barbour PPE (which is apparently brilliant) trades illicitly at a multiple of its face price?

    Or is is just another massive pile of media horseh8t?

    Well there was that “head of an NHS Trust” who turned out to be “part of a network sourcing PPE for the NHS” rather than actually, y’know, being the “head of an NHS trust”
    Was that the guy who knew how to find the phone number for the BBC, but couldn't find the phone number for Barbour?
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    I'm guessing the Hedgehog depth charge launcher was siomething to do with it?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data



    Russia and India definitely look like the next big problem countries.
    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    lack of hospital care will also be a big factor based on volumes infected and beds / equipment available.
    We will see

    https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1251822078795362305?s=19
    If we could get NHS PPE from the same source as your endless supply of raving mad Tory tweeters there would be no shortage.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited April 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:



    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    Facts only get you so far without the most rudimentary grasp of logic.

    Thought experiment: We have a hundred story building. Most people leave it by the ground floor, and are fine. Suicidal people sometimes jump off the roof and kill themselves. If we are considering the desirability of jumping from a 90th storey window, how strong an argument is: "The evidence globally is jumping from the roof is fatal, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that jumping from any storey above about the 4th is likely to be fatal, judging from what we know about gravity and human physiology, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet."?
    I only go on facts and evidence, I have no interest in random theories supposedly based on 'logic' but which have no evidence for them yet.

    Plus there have already been plenty of coronavirus cases in India, the evidence is India has a death rate per head lower than the West due to the fact it has fewer over 80s.

    In your example nobody had jumped from the 4th floor or higher, just from the roof
    So we would have no steer at all from anywhere as to the likely effects of jumping from the 98th floor.

    Got you.
    No but we do have steer from India where there have been multiple Covid 19 cases and a below average death rate per head, on your example nobody had jumped from the 98th floor at all
    Trying to compare statistics between two countries which have vastly different healthcare and reporting systems is more or less futile.
    The statistics in our own country are subject to massive uncertainty; those in India even more so. Attempting then to compare the two sets of uncertain data multiples that uncertainty.

    You’d almost think there would be an xkcd page which describes that sort of thing.....
    https://xkcd.com/2295/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data



    Russia and India definitely look like the next big problem countries.
    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    lack of hospital care will also be a big factor based on volumes infected and beds / equipment available.
    We will see

    https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1251822078795362305?s=19
    They still need high flow oxygen or even normal oxygen treatment depending on severity, I see your medical knowledge is on a par with your Scottish knowledge.
    Maybe but the verdict on the effectiveness of ventilators is still open
    Which is why one of the strands of "ventilator" procurement was actually to build lots of enhanced oxygen delivery systems.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/f1-team-helps-build-new-uk-breathing-aid-for-covid-19-patients

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52087002

    They backed half the horses in the race. One way to get winners
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    I'm guessing the Hedgehog depth charge launcher was siomething to do with it?
    Lukewarm.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Is there any actual evidence the NHS is 'short' of PPE?

    Are there any photos of key workers actually going in to work in overalls, jeans, bikinis or lingerie because they don't have protective equipment.

    are there any photos of empty or nearly empty PPE storage facilities, or a PPE black market where Barbour PPE (which is apparently brilliant) trades illicitly at a multiple of its face price?

    Or is is just another massive pile of media horseh8t?

    Well there was that “head of an NHS Trust” who turned out to be “part of a network sourcing PPE for the NHS” rather than actually, y’know, being the “head of an NHS trust”
    Was that the guy who knew how to find the phone number for the BBC, but couldn't find the phone number for Barbour?
    To be fair - Barbour have gone to email only on their website for customer queries. But not having the brains to ring a retail chain that sells Barbour and following that route...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    From somebody is not exactly a fan of the Tory government...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1251814966279262208?s=19
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    USS England (DE-635), a Buckley-class destroyer escort of the United States Navy, was named in honor of Ensign John C. England (1920–1941), who was killed in action aboard the battleship Oklahoma during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. Her sinking of six Japanese submarines in twelve days is a feat unparalleled in the history of antisubmarine warfare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England_(DE-635)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited April 2020
    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I’d have thought the understatement was Aberdonian, rather than the phrase, wouldn’t you?

    For instance I’d say you could show typical English understatement whilst speaking a phrase in French
    Perhaps from your deep well of cultural insight you can give me a break down on 'typical' Aberdonian understatement?
    No, I had assumed that was acknowledged as a thing, people from Aberdeen being understated. I’ve never heard of it.

    But it seems weird, I’d say incorrect, to criticise what he said as never being said by an Aberdonian, which is implicitly accepting there is such a phenomena, if there isn’t such a thing.
    I lived in Aberdeen from age 5-20 and have no recall of understatement being held up as a civic characteristic. In fact the pursuit of oil money and the vulgar excesses it was put to were the opposite of understated.
    Fair enough. In that case it was strange of the tweeter to focus on the Aberdonian or not nature of the phrase, rather than query the claim that there was a civic characteristic of understatement, to me
    It is Gove that is weird, he would be lucky to recognise an Aberdonian if he tripped over them.
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Is the phrase Aberdonian, or the scale of the understatement?
    His whole comment was utter bollox
    Classic Gove, though - conflating one piece of esoteric knowledge (the Aberdonian link to the phrase “beam me up”) with something entirely different (“off beam”) which sounds similar.

    Spurious certainty, based on overconfidence in his intellect, is one of his trademarks.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    As soon as I got to this bit I knew who the author was:

    "You don’t have to think that China handled this whole affair well, or even adequately, to think that most of this is rabble-rousing bilge."

    :D
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    Interesting to see that Peter Foster's ventilator claims have been rebutted:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/response-to-ft-article-and-twitter-thread-by-peter-foster

    He also seems proud at what has happened at the Telegraph over the last 20 years - hmmm.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1217058961008013313
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    USS England (DE-635), a Buckley-class destroyer escort of the United States Navy, was named in honor of Ensign John C. England (1920–1941), who was killed in action aboard the battleship Oklahoma during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. Her sinking of six Japanese submarines in twelve days is a feat unparalleled in the history of antisubmarine warfare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England_(DE-635)
    Warmer - need the full connection...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Perhaps Gove's ever present glasses act as Knickebein antennae.
    Though, my former Physics professor at Aberdeen University was RV Jones, who did do a lot of work on RADAR development during the second world war.
    More a Government Scientist advising the Air Min on science and intyelligence (akin to Dr Whitty these days if not at that grade) rather than doing the nitty gritty work at TRE, but he was indeed much involved with the development and use of radar. His autobiography is a great read.

    There can't be a link between radar andf Aberdeen as RV didn't go to Aberdeen till '46, when he was demobbed.
    Robert Watson-Watt from just down the road in Angus.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    isam said:

    I’d have thought the understatement was Aberdonian, rather than the phrase, wouldn’t you?

    For instance I’d say you could show typical English understatement whilst speaking a phrase in French
    Perhaps from your deep well of cultural insight you can give me a break
    down on 'typical' Aberdonian understatement?
    Well an Aberdonian might well say that they like sheep.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    MattW said:

    Interesting to see that Peter Foster's ventilator claims have been rebutted:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/response-to-ft-article-and-twitter-thread-by-peter-foster

    He also seems proud at what has happened at the Telegraph over the last 20 years - hmmm.
    /twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1217058961008013313

    I have seen some many articles that confused the whole ventaliator response e.g. many just hearing F1 and thinking all the teams have been working on the same thing, when different teams have been involved with different consortia from new designs to many copies of existing IP.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    GIN1138 said:

    As soon as I got to this bit I knew who the author was:

    "You don’t have to think that China handled this whole affair well, or even adequately, to think that most of this is rabble-rousing bilge."

    :D

    Is not liking the action of Putin Russiaphobia?
    Is not liking the actions of Saudi Arabia Arabphobia? Islamaphobia?
    Is not liking the actions of the Donald Trump Americaphobia?
    Is not liking the actions of the Benjamin Netanyahu Antisemitic?

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Scott_xP said:

    ***ANECDOTE ALERT***

    My neighbour runs a pharmacy. Health England issued him with PPE for his 15 staff. A total of 60 masks good for 4 hours each...

    So he ordered 400 overnight from China.

    Have they turned up yet?
    Surely not close contact means it can be washed?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Scott_xP said:
    What, like the Iraq War Inquiry? That really rocked the Government of the day.

    Not.
    No wonder confidence in the media is falling through the floor.

    That Sunday Times piece is the more egregious example of 20/20 hindsight I think I have ever read.

    Many media outlets are also completely ignoring the failings of the NHS procurement teams and Public Health England in this.
    PHE are having as bad a virus as the Government as a whole.

    But not as bad as Hancock.

    How has he not resigned yet?
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    MattW said:

    Interesting to see that Peter Foster's ventilator claims have been rebutted:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/response-to-ft-article-and-twitter-thread-by-peter-foster

    He also seems proud at what has happened at the Telegraph over the last 20 years - hmmm.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1217058961008013313

    that article got posted at least twice on here, probably by the same member

    it was clearly nonsense the first time. some of the governments reply looks like its been taken off here ...
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I’d have thought the understatement was Aberdonian, rather than the phrase, wouldn’t you?

    For instance I’d say you could show typical English understatement whilst speaking a phrase in French
    Perhaps from your deep well of cultural insight you can give me a break down on 'typical' Aberdonian understatement?
    No, I had assumed that was acknowledged as a thing, people from Aberdeen being understated. I’ve never heard of it.

    But it seems weird, I’d say incorrect, to criticise what he said as never being said by an Aberdonian, which is implicitly accepting there is such a phenomena, if there isn’t such a thing.
    I lived in Aberdeen from age 5-20 and have no recall of understatement being held up as a civic characteristic. In fact the pursuit of oil money and the vulgar excesses it was put to were the opposite of understated.
    Fair enough. In that case it was strange of the tweeter to focus on the Aberdonian or not nature of the phrase, rather than query the claim that there was a civic characteristic of understatement, to me
    It is Gove that is weird, he would be lucky to recognise an Aberdonian if he tripped over them.
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Is the phrase Aberdonian, or the scale of the understatement?
    His whole comment was utter bollox
    Classic Gove, though - conflating one piece of esoteric knowledge (the Aberdonian link to the phrase “beam me up”) with something entirely different (“off beam”) which sounds similar.

    Spurious certainty, based on overconfidence in his intellect, is one of his trademarks.
    Er... Gove is Aberdonian and he spent at least the first 18 years of his life there. He would have probably referred to "typical English understatement", only he's Scottish. From Aberdeen.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Scott_xP said:
    What, like the Iraq War Inquiry? That really rocked the Government of the day.

    Not.
    No wonder confidence in the media is falling through the floor.

    That Sunday Times piece is the more egregious example of 20/20 hindsight I think I have ever read.

    Many media outlets are also completely ignoring the failings of the NHS procurement teams and Public Health England in this.
    PHE are having as bad a virus as the Government as a whole.

    But not as bad as Hancock.

    How has he not resigned yet?
    Because you dont make the decisions.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    MattW said:

    Interesting to see that Peter Foster's ventilator claims have been rebutted:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/response-to-ft-article-and-twitter-thread-by-peter-foster

    He also seems proud at what has happened at the Telegraph over the last 20 years - hmmm.
    /twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1217058961008013313

    I have seen some many articles that confused the whole ventaliator response e.g. many just hearing F1 and thinking all the teams have been working on the same thing, when different teams have been involved with different consortia from new designs to many copies of existing IP.
    The response being sold to the multi-strand method is that it was a "distraction" and "waste of resources"

    Two hard facts were of particular interest to me in this story - should have been asked earlier -

    1) The company that provided the design for the ventilators had a capacity of 50-60 per month.
    2) The initial requirement for ventilators for the UK was greater than world production of ventilators.

    1) Explains why "ordering more ventilators from the standard sources" wasn't going to work. A 300% increase in production would not do much.
    2) Further explains why there was a concentration on domestic production of by old and new designs - everyone on the planet is going to be short of them. Massively.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    USS England (DE-635), a Buckley-class destroyer escort of the United States Navy, was named in honor of Ensign John C. England (1920–1941), who was killed in action aboard the battleship Oklahoma during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. Her sinking of six Japanese submarines in twelve days is a feat unparalleled in the history of antisubmarine warfare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England_(DE-635)
    Warmer - need the full connection...
    As Naval C in C, was he responsible for naming the ship in honour of Ensign England, who died heroically at Pearl Harbour ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Nigelb said:

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    USS England (DE-635), a Buckley-class destroyer escort of the United States Navy, was named in honor of Ensign John C. England (1920–1941), who was killed in action aboard the battleship Oklahoma during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. Her sinking of six Japanese submarines in twelve days is a feat unparalleled in the history of antisubmarine warfare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England_(DE-635)
    Warmer - need the full connection...
    As Naval C in C, was he responsible for naming the ship in honour of Ensign England, who died heroically at Pearl Harbour ?
    Colder... need the connection back to UK, 1940.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest data



    Russia and India definitely look like the next big problem countries.
    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    lack of hospital care will also be a big factor based on volumes infected and beds / equipment available.
    We will see

    https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1251822078795362305?s=19
    All these people like Boris and the whole of Government that screamed it were right and it is very good news we have scraped through.

    I am sure Pearson will be allowed to decline ventilation should she need it if she is that concerned about its use
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    Having read an account of the life of the miserable old sod, it was probably because he needed to save his own backside.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I’d have thought the understatement was Aberdonian, rather than the phrase, wouldn’t you?

    For instance I’d say you could show typical English understatement whilst speaking a phrase in French
    Perhaps from your deep well of cultural insight you can give me a break down on 'typical' Aberdonian understatement?
    No, I had assumed that was acknowledged as a thing, people from Aberdeen being understated. I’ve never heard of it.

    But it seems weird, I’d say incorrect, to criticise what he said as never being said by an Aberdonian, which is implicitly accepting there is such a phenomena, if there isn’t such a thing.
    I lived in Aberdeen from age 5-20 and have no recall of understatement being held up as a civic characteristic. In fact the pursuit of oil money and the vulgar excesses it was put to were the opposite of understated.
    Fair enough. In that case it was strange of the tweeter to focus on the Aberdonian or not nature of the phrase, rather than query the claim that there was a civic characteristic of understatement, to me
    It is Gove that is weird, he would be lucky to recognise an Aberdonian if he tripped over them.
    He is/was, IIRC!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    I bet its the same reason the delieveries from China don't come on time or don't contain exactly what has been ordered. All these PPE factories are promising everybody what they ask for, take their money. They run their factories 24/7, but they have taken more orders than they can actually produce.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I assume it didn’t turn up at the airfield
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Scott_xP said:
    What, like the Iraq War Inquiry? That really rocked the Government of the day.

    Not.
    No wonder confidence in the media is falling through the floor.

    That Sunday Times piece is the more egregious example of 20/20 hindsight I think I have ever read.

    Many media outlets are also completely ignoring the failings of the NHS procurement teams and Public Health England in this.
    PHE are having as bad a virus as the Government as a whole.

    But not as bad as Hancock.

    How has he not resigned yet?
    Because you dont make the decisions.
    Hancock has had a complete shocker and has many deaths on his hands.

    The latest gown crisis should be the final straw.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    Because you dont make the decisions.

    If it's not about resignations now that's fine but it has to be about accountability and transparency one day. People have a right to ask about why decisions were and were not taken at particular points and while accepting hindsight is marvellous there are two sorts of mistake out there:

    If the Government was given guidance, chose to follow it and it turned out to be incorrect guidance, it's not, in my view, the Government's fault. As to whether those who gave the advice should be hung out to dry, that's a different question.

    If the Government was given advice which turned out to be correct but the Government chose not to follow it, that is down to the Government and responsibility clearly sits with Boris Johnson and all points below.

    What guidance was given about the imposition of a lockdown, by whom and when? Was it considered at Cobra or full Cabinet and if it was ignored in mid March, why?

    Nick Rust of the BHA said this morning the decision to go ahead with Cheltenham had been based on Government guidance and advice - if that's the case we should see the guidance. If it's not the case and the Government advised the BHA to proceed with Cheltenham in contradiction of scientific advice, that's a much more serious matter.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited April 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
    I don't think people have realised just how bad it will get for that sector.

    My friend manages a 96 seat restaurant, if social distancing is going to last long term, then he'll only have space for 30 odd seats, there's no way he's going to make a profit with just 30 odd seats.

    Hotels which rely on their bars and restaurants will similarly struggle.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    MattW said:

    Interesting to see that Peter Foster's ventilator claims have been rebutted:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/response-to-ft-article-and-twitter-thread-by-peter-foster

    He also seems proud at what has happened at the Telegraph over the last 20 years - hmmm.
    /twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1217058961008013313

    I have seen some many articles that confused the whole ventaliator response e.g. many just hearing F1 and thinking all the teams have been working on the same thing, when different teams have been involved with different consortia from new designs to many copies of existing IP.
    Yes, there were (and still are) several teams of people from various hi-tech engineering companies, working on different projects simultaneously.

    This multi-threaded approach has been key to getting some devices out in the real world, meeting spec and certification requirements in a quickly-changing environment.

    Who would have thought that F1 teams would be good at rapid design, prototyping, iteration and production of multiple device types, all to tight deadlines? ;)
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
    The government are mad if they think people will put up with not being able to go to a pub or restaurant for ten months.

    I suspect people will take matters into their own hands and start running unlicensed premises to fill the gap followed by all the disasters that will then follow such as food and alcohol poisoning etc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
    Well Germany say it will be until 31st August, so i think we can guess it isn't going to be before that in the UK.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited April 2020
    Step up in groups eligible for testing.

    The full list of eligible workers now includes:

    all NHS and social care staff, including hospital, community and primary care, and staff providing support to frontline NHS services (for example accommodation, catering) and voluntary workers
    police, fire and rescue services
    local authority staff, including those working with vulnerable children, adults and victims of domestic abuse, and those working with the homeless and rough sleepers
    defence, prisons and probation staff, and judiciary
    frontline benefits workers
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    I'm guessing the Hedgehog depth charge launcher was siomething to do with it?
    Lukewarm.
    Scanning the usual internet sources I can't find a direct link however, my inital hunch was the PIAT was somewhat related to the hedgehog which was some what connected to said Admiral.

    It turns out both the PIAT and Hedgehog systems were derived from the spigot mortar by way of the Blacker Bombard. I found a unsourced tweet claiming the PIAT was tested as an anti-submarine weapon so it must be true..

    https://twitter.com/historicfirearm/status/1133153552766046208

    The Admiral however.. I know the Hedgehog was adopted by the American Navy and statistically it was more effective than previous systems, about 1 kill for every 5 attempts. Whether this was in part due to the advancment of anti-sub techniques I'm not sure.

    @Another_Richard offers the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England up but I can't see a direct link

    His acceptance of British convoy strategy in 1942 seems closer to the truth as this coincides with the introduction of the Hegehog into the war. I think that after seeing so many of his ships sunk before 1942 it was the result of using British anti-submarine techniques, intelligence and strategy along with the Hedgehog system that led to him declaring his admiration for England.


  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    stodge said:


    Because you dont make the decisions.

    If it's not about resignations now that's fine but it has to be about accountability and transparency one day. People have a right to ask about why decisions were and were not taken at particular points and while accepting hindsight is marvellous there are two sorts of mistake out there:

    If the Government was given guidance, chose to follow it and it turned out to be incorrect guidance, it's not, in my view, the Government's fault. As to whether those who gave the advice should be hung out to dry, that's a different question.

    If the Government was given advice which turned out to be correct but the Government chose not to follow it, that is down to the Government and responsibility clearly sits with Boris Johnson and all points below.

    What guidance was given about the imposition of a lockdown, by whom and when? Was it considered at Cobra or full Cabinet and if it was ignored in mid March, why?

    Nick Rust of the BHA said this morning the decision to go ahead with Cheltenham had been based on Government guidance and advice - if that's the case we should see the guidance. If it's not the case and the Government advised the BHA to proceed with Cheltenham in contradiction of scientific advice, that's a much more serious matter.
    I think “government guidance of advice” here is government >> bha not scientists >> government
  • Pulpstar said:

    Step up in groups eligible for testing.

    The full list of eligible workers now includes:

    all NHS and social care staff, including hospital, community and primary care, and staff providing support to frontline NHS services (for example accommodation, catering) and voluntary workers
    police, fire and rescue services
    local authority staff, including those working with vulnerable children, adults and victims of domestic abuse, and those working with the homeless and rough sleepers
    defence, prisons and probation staff, and judiciary
    frontline benefits workers

    You need financial service workers at the top end of that list.

    If financial services workers cannot get tested whole system will seize up.

    It is was far sighted of Boris Johnson to designate me and my colleagues key workers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Pulpstar said:

    Step up in groups eligible for testing.

    The full list of eligible workers now includes:

    all NHS and social care staff, including hospital, community and primary care, and staff providing support to frontline NHS services (for example accommodation, catering) and voluntary workers
    police, fire and rescue services
    local authority staff, including those working with vulnerable children, adults and victims of domestic abuse, and those working with the homeless and rough sleepers
    defence, prisons and probation staff, and judiciary
    frontline benefits workers

    No private dentists?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Pulpstar said:

    Step up in groups eligible for testing.

    The full list of eligible workers now includes:

    all NHS and social care staff, including hospital, community and primary care, and staff providing support to frontline NHS services (for example accommodation, catering) and voluntary workers
    police, fire and rescue services
    local authority staff, including those working with vulnerable children, adults and victims of domestic abuse, and those working with the homeless and rough sleepers
    defence, prisons and probation staff, and judiciary
    frontline benefits workers

    You need financial service workers at the top end of that list.

    If financial services workers cannot get tested whole system will seize up.

    It is was far sighted of Boris Johnson to designate me and my colleagues key workers.
    That’s what comes from working for a retail bank
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    Today's deaths figure is way down on yesterday and 30% down on last Sunday.

    Fingers crossed the 3 week extension on lockdown becomes a total farce by the final week with empty hospitals.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    I bet its the same reason the delieveries from China don't come on time or don't contain exactly what has been ordered. All these PPE factories are promising everybody what they ask for, take their money. They run their factories 24/7, but they have taken more orders than they can actually produce.
    Am surprised Turkey are exporting TBH. I wonder when the order was placed.

    They appear to be still reporting 4000 new cases per day themselves surely their hospitals must be under pressure.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
    I don't think people have realised just how bad it will get for that sector.

    My friend manages a 96 seat restaurant, if social distancing is going to last long term, then he'll only have space for 30 odd seats, there's no way he's going to make a profit with just 30 odd seats.

    Hotels which rely on their bars and restaurants will similarly struggle.
    I think hospitality would need to reopen with outside seating during the summer.

    Buy shares in parasol manufacturers.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Of all the things that are grotesque over last few days. This one wouldnt be at the top of the list. Typical Gove

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-grotesque-to-claim-boris-johnson-skipped-five-emergency-covid-19-meetings-11975472
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    GIN1138 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
    The government are mad if they think people will put up with not being able to go to a pub or restaurant for ten months.

    I suspect people will take matters into their own hands and start running unlicensed premises to fill the gap followed by all the disasters that will then follow such as food and alcohol poisoning etc.
    Shakes head - oh the horror of not being able to eat out
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    482 new deaths in England. Friday reported numbers well down on usual day -2 figures.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
    I don't think people have realised just how bad it will get for that sector.

    My friend manages a 96 seat restaurant, if social distancing is going to last long term, then he'll only have space for 30 odd seats, there's no way he's going to make a profit with just 30 odd seats.

    Hotels which rely on their bars and restaurants will similarly struggle.
    I suppose a lot of things that used to be events, dining out being one of them, will revert to being so again as the prices inevitably rise and restaurants/bars close
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
    While horse racing can take place behind closed doors (and the key element to that will be whether betting shops van re-open), some racecourses are not going to survive losing an entire summer of income.

    For many courses, the summer weekend and evening fixtures are the most lucrative.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    I'm guessing the Hedgehog depth charge launcher was siomething to do with it?
    Lukewarm.
    Scanning the usual internet sources I can't find a direct link however, my inital hunch was the PIAT was somewhat related to the hedgehog which was some what connected to said Admiral.

    It turns out both the PIAT and Hedgehog systems were derived from the spigot mortar by way of the Blacker Bombard. I found a unsourced tweet claiming the PIAT was tested as an anti-submarine weapon so it must be true..

    https://twitter.com/historicfirearm/status/1133153552766046208

    The Admiral however.. I know the Hedgehog was adopted by the American Navy and statistically it was more effective than previous systems, about 1 kill for every 5 attempts. Whether this was in part due to the advancment of anti-sub techniques I'm not sure.

    @Another_Richard offers the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England up but I can't see a direct link

    His acceptance of British convoy strategy in 1942 seems closer to the truth as this coincides with the introduction of the Hegehog into the war. I think that after seeing so many of his ships sunk before 1942 it was the result of using British anti-submarine techniques, intelligence and strategy along with the Hedgehog system that led to him declaring his admiration for England.


    I will take that as a winner - the Blacker Bombard was the direct source of the spigot mortar technology which Mad* Major Jefferies had taken to with great enthusiasm at Churchills Toyshop (aka. MD1). This outfit specialised in creating building weapons - generally from non-traditional suppliers and using innovative principles.

    As mentioned above, Hedgehog finally became a massive success - after some early problems.

    The success of the USS England in destroying 6 Japanese submarines** - usually with the first salvo from it's Hedgehog, caused Admiral King to signal - "There will always be an England, in the US Navy".

    * Classic British useful lunatic. Approach with caution recommended.
    ** A incredible feat - even though the general positions of the patrol line of submarines had been obtained via ULTRA intelligence.

    Which charity?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If that is government policy, they may as well tell the entire hospitality and tourism sector to shut down now and warn those areas heavily dependant on it. The sector is not going to survive a 9 or 10 months shutdown.
    I don't think people have realised just how bad it will get for that sector.

    My friend manages a 96 seat restaurant, if social distancing is going to last long term, then he'll only have space for 30 odd seats, there's no way he's going to make a profit with just 30 odd seats.

    Hotels which rely on their bars and restaurants will similarly struggle.
    I think hospitality would need to reopen with outside seating during the summer.

    Buy shares in parasol manufacturers.
    Pub/restaurant gardens could be enclosed during winter to allow more people (the same amount as usual) in?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    Never going to hit that 100,000 test mark. Positives % still very high.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1251861744273809409?s=20
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Pulpstar said:

    Step up in groups eligible for testing.

    The full list of eligible workers now includes:

    all NHS and social care staff, including hospital, community and primary care, and staff providing support to frontline NHS services (for example accommodation, catering) and voluntary workers
    police, fire and rescue services
    local authority staff, including those working with vulnerable children, adults and victims of domestic abuse, and those working with the homeless and rough sleepers
    defence, prisons and probation staff, and judiciary
    frontline benefits workers

    No private dentists?
    Insufficient fluid repellent gowns to waste on dentistry according to Dr Fox yesterday
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited April 2020

    On a lighter note:

    A puzzle - £10 to the charity of choice for the winner.

    In 1940, the British government kicked off a huge variety of weird and wonderful programs for anti-tank weapons. Why did this cause Admiral King of the US Navy - a noted Anglophobe - to declare his admiration for England, later in the war?

    I'm guessing the Hedgehog depth charge launcher was siomething to do with it?
    Lukewarm.
    Scanning the usual internet sources I can't find a direct link however, my inital hunch was the PIAT was somewhat related to the hedgehog which was some what connected to said Admiral...

    It was, using the same type of Torpex shaped charge, launched by a spigot mortar.

    The England was, of course, equipped with Hedgehogs, which it used to sink the submarines,
    (Torpex was one of the technologies shared with the US thanks to the 1940 Tizard mission.)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I’d have thought the understatement was Aberdonian, rather than the phrase, wouldn’t you?

    For instance I’d say you could show typical English understatement whilst speaking a phrase in French
    Perhaps from your deep well of cultural insight you can give me a break down on 'typical' Aberdonian understatement?
    No, I had assumed that was acknowledged as a thing, people from Aberdeen being understated. I’ve never heard of it.

    But it seems weird, I’d say incorrect, to criticise what he said as never being said by an Aberdonian, which is implicitly accepting there is such a phenomena, if there isn’t such a thing.
    I lived in Aberdeen from age 5-20 and have no recall of understatement being held up as a civic characteristic. In fact the pursuit of oil money and the vulgar excesses it was put to were the opposite of understated.
    Fair enough. In that case it was strange of the tweeter to focus on the Aberdonian or not nature of the phrase, rather than query the claim that there was a civic characteristic of understatement, to me
    It is Gove that is weird, he would be lucky to recognise an Aberdonian if he tripped over them.
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Is the phrase Aberdonian, or the scale of the understatement?
    His whole comment was utter bollox
    Classic Gove, though - conflating one piece of esoteric knowledge (the Aberdonian link to the phrase “beam me up”) with something entirely different (“off beam”) which sounds similar.

    Spurious certainty, based on overconfidence in his intellect, is one of his trademarks.
    Er... Gove is Aberdonian and he spent at least the first 18 years of his life there. He would have probably referred to "typical English understatement", only he's Scottish. From Aberdeen.
    A place not particularly noted for understatement. Nor, to go down the Gove rabbit hole, for fish processing businesses being destroyed by EU fisheries policies.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    482 new deaths in England. Friday reported numbers well down on usual day -2 figures.

    As much as nearly 500 people dying can be considered good news, that's very good news.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I’d have thought the understatement was Aberdonian, rather than the phrase, wouldn’t you?

    For instance I’d say you could show typical English understatement whilst speaking a phrase in French
    Perhaps from your deep well of cultural insight you can give me a break down on 'typical' Aberdonian understatement?
    No, I had assumed that was acknowledged as a thing, people from Aberdeen being understated. I’ve never heard of it.

    But it seems weird, I’d say incorrect, to criticise what he said as never being said by an Aberdonian, which is implicitly accepting there is such a phenomena, if there isn’t such a thing.
    I lived in Aberdeen from age 5-20 and have no recall of understatement being held up as a civic characteristic. In fact the pursuit of oil money and the vulgar excesses it was put to were the opposite of understated.
    Fair enough. In that case it was strange of the tweeter to focus on the Aberdonian or not nature of the phrase, rather than query the claim that there was a civic characteristic of understatement, to me
    It is Gove that is weird, he would be lucky to recognise an Aberdonian if he tripped over them.
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Is the phrase Aberdonian, or the scale of the understatement?
    His whole comment was utter bollox
    Classic Gove, though - conflating one piece of esoteric knowledge (the Aberdonian link to the phrase “beam me up”) with something entirely different (“off beam”) which sounds similar.

    Spurious certainty, based on overconfidence in his intellect, is one of his trademarks.
    Er... Gove is Aberdonian and he spent at least the first 18 years of his life there. He would have probably referred to "typical English understatement", only he's Scottish. From Aberdeen.
    A place not particularly noted for understatement. Nor, to go down the Gove rabbit hole, for fish processing businesses being destroyed by EU fisheries policies.
    Did he not speak of Fraserhead and Peterborough as Scottish fishing ports? or is that a canard (or ratther red herring)?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Never going to hit that 100,000 test mark. Positives % still very high.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1251861744273809409?s=20

    Why do we think we are still getting such a high positive rate of tests after this period of lockdown?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Sandpit said:

    482 new deaths in England. Friday reported numbers well down on usual day -2 figures.

    As much as nearly 500 people dying can be considered good news, that's very good news.
    I think that's about a 1/3 down on Easter Sunday.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    maaarsh said:

    Today's deaths figure is way down on yesterday and 30% down on last Sunday.

    Fingers crossed the 3 week extension on lockdown becomes a total farce by the final week with empty hospitals.

    The empty spaces can then be filled with all the other patients who need treatment and we can get the urgent and then the non-urgent procedures moving and get the various testing regimen for cancer back moving.

    Whether doing all that justifies a full lifting of the lock down I doubt but it would be useful to utilise the spare capacity in the NHS which now exists.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    maaarsh said:

    Today's deaths figure is way down on yesterday and 30% down on last Sunday.

    Fingers crossed the 3 week extension on lockdown becomes a total farce by the final week with empty hospitals.

    They are already empty in many places
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Never going to hit that 100,000 test mark. Positives % still very high.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1251861744273809409?s=20

    Why do we think we are still getting such a high positive rate of tests after this period of lockdown?
    Because only people with symptoms who are seriously ill are being tested? A biased and indeed selected sample?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    482 new deaths in England. Friday reported numbers well down on usual day -2 figures.

    Thats good even taking into account weekend lag

    We surely have now passed peak deaths
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited April 2020

    Never going to hit that 100,000 test mark. Positives % still very high.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1251861744273809409?s=20

    Why do we think we are still getting such a high positive rate of tests after this period of lockdown?
    Because of the lack of tests we're only testing the people we think might have it?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Never going to hit that 100,000 test mark. Positives % still very high.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1251861744273809409?s=20

    Why do we think we are still getting such a high positive rate of tests after this period of lockdown?
    Because they are concentrating testing on people with symptoms in the eligible groups?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590

    Never going to hit that 100,000 test mark. Positives % still very high.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1251861744273809409?s=20

    Why do we think we are still getting such a high positive rate of tests after this period of lockdown?
    Because they're only testing people admitted to hospital with severe symptoms. The actual level of new transmission happening now is very low. See link below for decent trend line on transmission (and you need to add a 7 day lag for symptoms to show, so you can extend the downward curve a fair bit to see where we really are now)

    https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiNzhiNTlhZmUtYmI1Zi00NWU1LTgzNWUtNGViZTExNzlhMGFkIiwidCI6IjUwZjYwNzFmLWJiZmUtNDAxYS04ODAzLTY3Mzc0OGU2MjllMiIsImMiOjh9
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:
    Perhaps from your deep well of cultural insight you can give me a break down on 'typical' Aberdonian understatement?
    No, I had assumed that was acknowledged as a thing, people from Aberdeen being understated. I’ve never heard of it.

    But it seems weird, I’d say incorrect, to criticise what he said as never being said by an Aberdonian, which is implicitly accepting there is such a phenomena, if there isn’t such a thing.
    I lived in Aberdeen from age 5-20 and have no recall of understatement being held up as a civic characteristic. In fact the pursuit of oil money and the vulgar excesses it was put to were the opposite of understated.
    Fair enough. In that case it was strange of the tweeter to focus on the Aberdonian or not nature of the phrase, rather than query the claim that there was a civic characteristic of understatement, to me
    It is Gove that is weird, he would be lucky to recognise an Aberdonian if he tripped over them.
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    he is an absolute bellend, faker than a three bob bit
    The origin of the phrase is, I believe, from early aircraft radio navigation.
    Which, as @Dura_Ace might confirm, was not pioneered in Aberdeen...
    Is the phrase Aberdonian, or the scale of the understatement?
    His whole comment was utter bollox
    Classic Gove, though - conflating one piece of esoteric knowledge (the Aberdonian link to the phrase “beam me up”) with something entirely different (“off beam”) which sounds similar.

    Spurious certainty, based on overconfidence in his intellect, is one of his trademarks.
    Er... Gove is Aberdonian and he spent at least the first 18 years of his life there. He would have probably referred to "typical English understatement", only he's Scottish. From Aberdeen.
    A place not particularly noted for understatement. Nor, to go down the Gove rabbit hole, for fish processing businesses being destroyed by EU fisheries policies.
    I suspect that before long we'll hear of fish processing businesses being destroyed because the EU is no longer buying Scottish fish.
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    isam said:
    Dangerously misleading.

    What needs to be compared is the same day last week.

    April 12th reported new cases - 332
    April 12th reported new deaths - 12

    April 19th reported new cases - 563
    April 19th reported new deaths - 29

    Oh look, it's not good at all! Wow! That's shocking!

    Then again, you already know that, so why spread untruths day after day?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    482 new deaths in England. Friday reported numbers well down on usual day -2 figures.

    Thats good even taking into account weekend lag

    We surely have now passed peak deaths
    Lets hope so
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    isam said:

    twitter.com/pwyowell/status/1251849173051355140?s=21

    The genius over at UW prediction for UK today...deaths between 166 and 4214...They might as well predict between 0 and 10,000, for how accurate that is.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    Never going to hit that 100,000 test mark. Positives % still very high.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1251861744273809409?s=20

    Why do we think we are still getting such a high positive rate of tests after this period of lockdown?
    Because of the lack of tests we're only testing the people we think might have it?
    It isn't good though that the actually number of 5000+ is remaining this high.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    And we now know he ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed painting a costume dragon
    Though no one seems to have provided any evidence that his attendance would be expected or necessary.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ukpaul said:

    isam said:
    Dangerously misleading.

    What needs to be compared is the same day last week.

    April 12th reported new cases - 332
    April 12th reported new deaths - 12

    April 19th reported new cases - 563
    April 19th reported new deaths - 29

    Oh look, it's not good at all! Wow! That's shocking!

    Then again, you already know that, so why spread untruths day after day?
    Yes I already know it, and so does the person whose tweet I have posted.
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649

    482 new deaths in England. Friday reported numbers well down on usual day -2 figures.

    657 last Sunday, tentative signs that the lockdown is working. Hopefully that becomes a consistent pattern over the next week or so.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    isam said:

    twitter.com/pwyowell/status/1251849173051355140?s=21

    The genius over at UW prediction for UK today...deaths between 166 and 4214...They might as well predict between 0 and 10,000, for how accurate that is.
    At the risk of being thought flippant, I would have thought that was fair enough for a betting site!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited April 2020
    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Barnesian said:



    Currently India has a death rate of just 0.4 per million compared to a global average of 20.7.

    Clearly the fact it has few over 80s who are most at risk of death from coronavirus does seem to be reducing the impact there

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    I think the key there is 'currently'. If you believe the figures, which many don't.

    Looking at the graphs above, we'll all be talking about Russia, India and Africa a month from now. Possibly Brazil too. These countries all have very dense population centres and relatively poor healthcare.
    If it was a disease which affected all ages equally and which killed under 50s at the same rate as over 50s that would be true and India and Africa would be most badly hit.

    However it is a disease which most kills over 80s and it is only countries in the West which tend to have life expectancies over 80 so all the evidence so far is it is richer countries in Europe and North America that have been worst hit
    It kills over 80s *and the seriously ill.* If Indians are dying in their 60s either they are dying of being seriously ill, or they are dying of old age. In the latter case, they are physiologically equivalent to westerners in their 80s and the virus probably knows more about physiology than it knows about counting to 80. The evidence about its spread to date is explicable on any number of other grounds, and reliable evidence about the current state of affairs in India is nonexistent.
    The evidence globally is the disease has the highest mortality rate for over 80s, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that the disease has the highest mortality rate varying upon the average life expectancy of the country concerned eg late 60s in India, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet
    Facts only get you so far without the most rudimentary grasp of logic.

    Thought experiment: We have a hundred story building. Most people leave it by the ground floor, and are fine. Suicidal people sometimes jump off the roof and kill themselves. If we are considering the desirability of jumping from a 90th storey window, how strong an argument is: "The evidence globally is jumping from the roof is fatal, that is fact.

    The evidence is not yet that jumping from any storey above about the 4th is likely to be fatal, judging from what we know about gravity and human physiology, that is just your theory no evidence for it as yet."?
    I only go on facts and evidence, I have no interest in random theories supposedly based on 'logic' but which have no evidence for them yet.

    Plus there have already been plenty of coronavirus cases in India, the evidence is India has a death rate per head lower than the West due to the fact it has fewer over 80s.

    In your example nobody had jumped from the 4th floor or higher, just from the roof
    So we would have no steer at all from anywhere as to the likely effects of jumping from the 98th floor.

    Got you.
    No but we do have steer from India where there have been multiple Covid 19 cases and a below average death rate per head, on your example nobody had jumped from the 98th floor at all
    Trying to compare statistics between two countries which have vastly different healthcare and reporting systems is more or less futile.
    The statistics in our own country are subject to massive uncertainty; those in India even more so. Attempting then to compare the two sets of uncertain data multiples that uncertainty.

    You’d almost think there would be an xkcd page which describes that sort of thing.....
    https://xkcd.com/2295/
    I didn't say that, it's a quoting cockup. And i entirely agree with you. I read somewhere reasonably authoritative that 30 % of all deaths in India are not formally recorded anywhere, and only 25% have the cause of death certified by a doctor.

    HYUFD has never been anywhere in the third world. He doesn't realise that they do things differently there.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited April 2020
    So Great Jumping Jolyon thinks that progressives don't do snobbery :-) . That's a good one ... give it to Nish Kumar.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    maaarsh said:

    Today's deaths figure is way down on yesterday and 30% down on last Sunday.

    Fingers crossed the 3 week extension on lockdown becomes a total farce by the final week with empty hospitals.

    They are already empty in many places
    No hospital is empty.

    I think you must be referring to empty ITU beds.

    Maybe the NHS can start to bring back other urgent non Covid appointments

    Re lockdown the 3 week extension was the correct thing to do the next decision on this will be more finely balanced
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    I'll get my cricket bat.

    No, that might suggest I am going prepared.

    I'll get my Boyes 0.55" - everyone has one of those.
This discussion has been closed.