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  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    isam said:

    I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1251630747078836224
    Let's hope we're not in the middle of another crisis when he inevitably chucks Carrie.
    I think custom and practice is for the woman to chuck out Boris when he knocks up his next mistress.
    Well, Johnson has created a vacancy as Goldsmith observed.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    So, the line is the Government was wrong because it followed scientific advice, with the advice changing significantly in a short period of time?

    What's the alternative? Ignoring scientific advice?

    I'm not persuaded that's a sensible line....

    Where is the scientific advice which says that it is a good idea to discharge coronavirus infected patients from hospitals into care homes ?
    Which is, disgracefully, still government policy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/18/uk-care-home-covid-19-deaths-may-be-five-times-government-estimate

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52341403

    And was the advice to delay the lockdown by a week or so scientific ?
    Given the doubling rate of the infection it (conservatively) quadrupled the number of infections in the community.
    And as Carlotta tells us, it was driven by the scientists’ belief that the public would not follow lockdown instructions. That was not really a conclusion based on science.
    We’ve since found out that the public follow the lockdown more assiduously than government has planned for.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    Interesting article, thanks.

    Re this: “ Pressing China hard to close down these practices is almost certainly pushing against an open door. It is most unlikely that the Chinese authorities want a repeat of the last few months.”

    A little naive I fear. The Chinese closed down these markets before and then when all the fuss had died down quietly allowed them to be reopened again. I would not be surprised to find the same happenIng this time.

    There is a much broader case to be made against China than the one based on this virus. There are a number of strategic risks we are not taking into account of or pricing properly, as @AlastairMeeks rightly suggests we do in relation to manufacturing. I will do a header about it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    murali_s said:

    Scott_xP said:

    isam said:

    I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1251630747078836224
    At a time where this country needs a great leader, we have Boris Johnson. Sad but true...
    They have what they deserve
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Both are unscrupulous lying lazy egotistic wankers as well
    Well at least we're back to normal on that after criticism he was stupid to work too hard s couple of weeks ago.
    Yes the idolising after his PR exercise will be forgotten soon
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    isam said:

    I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1251630747078836224
    Let's hope we're not in the middle of another crisis when he inevitably chucks Carrie.
    I think custom and practice is for the woman to chuck out Boris when he knocks up his next mistress.
    Amusing, but of course he had been chucked out for his philandering long before Carrie was pregnant, divorce proceedings being outstanding is all.

    Being more serious I'm surprised at the wide range of people who get moralistic about Boris's personal life. I find he has enough issues in his politics theres no need to dwell on his personal ones (not that it prevents me making jokes about him not knowing how many kids he has). Nor do they need a focus people one reflects the other- it might on occasion, but for most people theres no connection so as a rule its irrelevant.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Scott_xP said:
    Never mind the missed meetings. As far as can I see from the ST headlines (haven't read the full article yet), the government is planning to lock up over 70s for a year or more.

    Those of that age I know wont agree to it. They just wont do it.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Both are unscrupulous lying lazy egotistic wankers as well
    +1.

    But beware the Trump and Johnson fanbois - there's quite a few of these morons who live on this blog!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    kyf_100 said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    I must say that I am impressed that it has taken about 4 weeks into lockdown before some properly serious political troubles for the government to emerge, with accompanying hyperbole for those whom the gov stumbling and having genuine questions to be asked just isn't enough.

    I'll predict that in about 2 weeks the govs ratings will take a sustained hit from the impact of negative stories and, hopefully, the plateau tapering off reducing a rally round the flag effect, combined with the ramping up of lockdown fatigue.

    Within 4 weeks ratings will be about where they were pre crisis.

    This scary. The government might be tempted to boost its ratings by prematurely announcing successes and relaxation of the lockdown.
    Let's see how popular the government is when unemployment touches 7m. Will people still be crying out to be placed under house arrest in their homes? Or will something else matter to them altogether.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/nearly-seven-million-jobs-at-risk-if-lockdown-lasts-for-months
    That hare is already running.

    The main reason I remain broadly agreeable to the Government's handling of the crisis is that I believe the lockdown, irrespective of it's ramifications was the least worst option.

    If Boris feels he is being unloved by the media and his public he may well make a decision that will boost his popularity first and foremost.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    edited April 2020

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Both are unscrupulous lying lazy egotistic wankers as well
    Morning Malc. Been digging turnips this morning.? It has not improved your humour.
    Unfortunately I have to yet again read about the unscrupulous wankers who rule my country knowing we had a chance to be free of the tossers but were thwarted by similar greedy spineless wankers in Scotland.
    PS: good morning to you, it is another beautiful sunny day here as well.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    BTW, an excellent article, Alastair. One of your best.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    SMukesh said:

    Of the innumerable bat-eating Chinese cities, towns and villages, the outbreak started in a market just next to the National Virology Institute in Wuhan.

    Talk of coincidence! lol

    Same as BSE in UK, same tossers all over it seems.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder who the first political casualty of Wuflu will be? I think we'll shortly have Hancock's testicle shaped head on a platter which will be a laugh.

    Hancock's fall from grace clearly demonstrates that Dominic Cummings needs to run the Health SpAds just like he runs the Treasury team. Whether Hancock resigns or swallows this effective demotion depends whether he has the balls of the Saj or Rishi's ambition.

    Rishi Sunak is the only minister who is a threat to the prime minister, not because he plans a coup but because his popularity means any other plotters don't need Boris to save their seats. It is hard to move the Chancellor now however, even though Boris's entire recent political career is founded on the Stalinist airbrushing of former Chancellors. He has ousted three already.

    It would have been Jenrick but he is safe now because to sack him over 3rd-home-gate would put the spotlight on Boris's own household(s).

    I can't get worked up about Pritti Patel stumbling over reading a number which was, I suspect, badly formatted in her script.

    Some of the scientifically-trained Cabinet ministers might have been expected to be able to read a graph or a table and know what exponential means, so I'd wonder if any ill-advised told-you-so's might arouse Boris's wrath.
    On reflection, how about Boris as first out?

    Maybe with a saver on Cummings as the Civil Service will be targeting Dom in the inevitable blamefest.

    But what's in it for Boris? He's become Prime Minister, now what?

    Boris sees himself as the new Churchill. The old one was often in debt and needing to be bailed out by rich friends in a way that would be unconscionable now, and probably illegal. Boris is not a wealthy man yet has an expensive family life and the cost of nappies will soon be added to any maintenance payments for the old lot. He's no longer getting £250k from the Telegraph and the same again for speeches to bankers. There are book royalties of course, but he can hardly knock out a new bestseller from Downing Street. But when he retires, well, look at Tony Blair.

    Boris has no great ideology, and might see beating Covid-19 as his destiny, as Hitler was Churchill's. Afterwards, does Boris need the hassle or would he prefer the acclaim if he walks away at the top, not to mention 6- and 7-figure cheques? Impossible? Unprecedented? Well, no. David Cameron resigned at his first setback, and he did not need the money.

    Au revoir, Boris.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    edited April 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    I am not certain this is the robust defense it was supposed to be...
    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1251782028061749249

    But if Johnson was taking all the mjor decisions, as Gove says, and his briefing papers were reduced to one side of A4, which he may or may not have read and inwardly digested in any case, then it is small wonder that the political side of the Government did such a poor job.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    malcolmg said:

    SMukesh said:

    Of the innumerable bat-eating Chinese cities, towns and villages, the outbreak started in a market just next to the National Virology Institute in Wuhan.

    Talk of coincidence! lol

    Same as BSE in UK, same tossers all over it seems.
    Bloody ignorant MPs malc - the dregs..

    https://twitter.com/scottishsun/status/1251595877447274496?s=21

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    kyf_100 said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    I must say that I am impressed that it has taken about 4 weeks into lockdown before some properly serious political troubles for the government to emerge, with accompanying hyperbole for those whom the gov stumbling and having genuine questions to be asked just isn't enough.

    I'll predict that in about 2 weeks the govs ratings will take a sustained hit from the impact of negative stories and, hopefully, the plateau tapering off reducing a rally round the flag effect, combined with the ramping up of lockdown fatigue.

    Within 4 weeks ratings will be about where they were pre crisis.

    This scary. The government might be tempted to boost its ratings by prematurely announcing successes and relaxation of the lockdown.
    Let's see how popular the government is when unemployment touches 7m. Will people still be crying out to be placed under house arrest in their homes? Or will something else matter to them altogether.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/nearly-seven-million-jobs-at-risk-if-lockdown-lasts-for-months
    That hare is already running.

    The main reason I remain broadly agreeable to the Government's handling of the crisis is that I believe the lockdown, irrespective of it's ramifications was the least worst option.

    If Boris feels he is being unloved by the media and his public he may well make a decision that will boost his popularity first and foremost.
    That's what I'm hoping for. Not wishing to be unpopular is a healthy motivator for politicians. I believe they need to take a good look at Sweden and work out how to get us there.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    murali_s said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Both are unscrupulous lying lazy egotistic wankers as well
    +1.

    But beware the Trump and Johnson fanbois - there's quite a few of these morons who live on this blog!
    The issue is it is lazy to paint them as the same or equally bad in my opinion. Its comforting but wrong . I've long thought Boris lazy, egotistical and disagreed with many of his policy choices, but I just cannot equate him with Trumps level of vanity, offensiveness, ignorance and divisiveness.

    I dont think one needs to be a fanboy to be wary of the comparisons of the two being taken too far.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Scott_xP said:

    I am not certain this is the robust defense it was supposed to be...

    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1251782028061749249

    Gove is the slimeball of slimeballs, if that little rat can stick the knife in you can be sure he will.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder who the first political casualty of Wuflu will be? I think we'll shortly have Hancock's testicle shaped head on a platter which will be a laugh.

    Hancock's fall from grace clearly demonstrates that Dominic Cummings needs to run the Health SpAds just like he runs the Treasury team. Whether Hancock resigns or swallows this effective demotion depends whether he has the balls of the Saj or Rishi's ambition.

    Rishi Sunak is the only minister who is a threat to the prime minister, not because he plans a coup but because his popularity means any other plotters don't need Boris to save their seats. It is hard to move the Chancellor now however, even though Boris's entire recent political career is founded on the Stalinist airbrushing of former Chancellors. He has ousted three already.

    It would have been Jenrick but he is safe now because to sack him over 3rd-home-gate would put the spotlight on Boris's own household(s).

    I can't get worked up about Pritti Patel stumbling over reading a number which was, I suspect, badly formatted in her script.

    Some of the scientifically-trained Cabinet ministers might have been expected to be able to read a graph or a table and know what exponential means, so I'd wonder if any ill-advised told-you-so's might arouse Boris's wrath.
    On reflection, how about Boris as first out?

    Maybe with a saver on Cummings as the Civil Service will be targeting Dom in the inevitable blamefest.

    But what's in it for Boris? He's become Prime Minister, now what?

    Boris sees himself as the new Churchill. The old one was often in debt and needing to be bailed out by rich friends in a way that would be unconscionable now, and probably illegal. Boris is not a wealthy man yet has an expensive family life and the cost of nappies will soon be added to any maintenance payments for the old lot. He's no longer getting £250k from the Telegraph and the same again for speeches to bankers. There are book royalties of course, but he can hardly knock out a new bestseller from Downing Street. But when he retires, well, look at Tony Blair.

    Boris has no great ideology, and might see beating Covid-19 as his destiny, as Hitler was Churchill's. Afterwards, does Boris need the hassle or would he prefer the acclaim if he walks away at the top, not to mention 6- and 7-figure cheques? Impossible? Unprecedented? Well, no. David Cameron resigned at his first setback, and he did not need the money.

    Au revoir, Boris.
    Where is Michael Gove when we need him? Oh wait...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    kyf_100 said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    I must say that I am impressed that it has taken about 4 weeks into lockdown before some properly serious political troubles for the government to emerge, with accompanying hyperbole for those whom the gov stumbling and having genuine questions to be asked just isn't enough.

    I'll predict that in about 2 weeks the govs ratings will take a sustained hit from the impact of negative stories and, hopefully, the plateau tapering off reducing a rally round the flag effect, combined with the ramping up of lockdown fatigue.

    Within 4 weeks ratings will be about where they were pre crisis.

    This scary. The government might be tempted to boost its ratings by prematurely announcing successes and relaxation of the lockdown.
    Let's see how popular the government is when unemployment touches 7m. Will people still be crying out to be placed under house arrest in their homes? Or will something else matter to them altogether.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/nearly-seven-million-jobs-at-risk-if-lockdown-lasts-for-months
    That hare is already running.

    The main reason I remain broadly agreeable to the Government's handling of the crisis is that I believe the lockdown, irrespective of it's ramifications was the least worst option.

    If Boris feels he is being unloved by the media and his public he may well make a decision that will boost his popularity first and foremost.
    That's what I'm hoping for. Not wishing to be unpopular is a healthy motivator for politicians. I believe they need to take a good look at Sweden and work out how to get us there.
    I sincerely hope you are wrong!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    TGOHF666 said:

    If politics is back then the worst of the crisis must be over. Time to start lifting elements of the lockdown soon.

    We have a leading entrant in the 2020 non sequitur of the year awards.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Jonathan, possibly, though that would be, as you imply, entirely wrong.

    Of course, if the Government were being criticised for actually following scientific advice it'd make such a petty political manoeuvre more likely...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.

    Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html

    Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.
    There's obviously a concerted effort going on now to fix the narrative that it's only China to blame, now that there's a risk of people getting angry with western governments.

    The timing of anonymous reports of secret reports from December, the stories planted in tame newspapers and journalists, it's classic stuff. The sudden concern about human rights, and animal rights, in people who previously showed no concern (in many cases more likely to go on bizarre anti vegan and anti ECHR rants).

    I say screw China!

    But the buck stops at no. 10 (and in the White House for the US).
    Tame journalists like CNN?
    There are tame journalists within all news organisations.
    That is the price of having sources in government.
    In UK it is all we have
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Scott_xP said:
    Well, stratospheric peaks could not last. Probably drift down a bit over the coming weeks, perhaps a spike back to government when lockdown is lifted.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited April 2020
    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    I suspect the "since the outbreak began" in that official response has been carefully crafted to suggest that Boris received briefings earlier than he did. My guess is that it means "outbreak in the UK" while suggesting he's been having personal briefings back when it was a Chinese and then an Italian problem only.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Cyclefree said:

    Interesting article, thanks.

    Re this: “ Pressing China hard to close down these practices is almost certainly pushing against an open door. It is most unlikely that the Chinese authorities want a repeat of the last few months.”

    A little naive I fear. The Chinese closed down these markets before and then when all the fuss had died down quietly allowed them to be reopened again. I would not be surprised to find the same happenIng this time.

    There is a much broader case to be made against China than the one based on this virus. There are a number of strategic risks we are not taking into account of or pricing properly, as @AlastairMeeks rightly suggests we do in relation to manufacturing. I will do a header about it.

    They have actually now changed the law on those markets, so we’ll see, as you say.

    On China and fraud, you might ‘enjoy’ this article:

    Luckin Coffee scandal highlights murky standards of China Inc.
    Alleged fraud appears to have been subtler than those elsewhere
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Luckin-Coffee-scandal-highlights-murky-standards-of-China-Inc
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. B, that discharging line, assuming it's accurate, seems very foolish.

    Given the Nightingales are thankfully under-used, they could perhaps be utilised as a temporary (fortnight, say) place for care home residents prior to being returned on a permanent basis.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    Really, really unimportant Cobra meetings?
    That’s why I don’t like the obsession with “cobra” as media branding. It is literally just Cabinet Office Briefing Room A. By convention all meetings chaired by the PM are held there.

    But there were multiple Cobra meetings working through the detail of options and consequences. Chaired by the Health Secretary who was responsible for briefing the PM

    When it cane to Cobra meeting drew all the threads together and needed to make decisions s the PM chaired it in person.

    That strikes me as government working g as it should.

    Let me put it another way: would and if those Cobra meetings made different decisions if the PM had been there?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited April 2020
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.

    Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html

    Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.
    There's obviously a concerted effort going on now to fix the narrative that it's only China to blame, now that there's a risk of people getting angry with western governments.

    The timing of anonymous reports of secret reports from December, the stories planted in tame newspapers and journalists, it's classic stuff. The sudden concern about human rights, and animal rights, in people who previously showed no concern (in many cases more likely to go on bizarre anti vegan and anti ECHR rants).

    I say screw China!

    But the buck stops at no. 10 (and in the White House for the US).
    Tame journalists like CNN?
    There are tame journalists within all news organisations.
    That is the price of having sources in government.
    In UK it is all we have
    A little unfair, malcolm. There’s certainly a very large over-representation of them in the most prominent positions.

    And we have others who are merely incompetent.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Scott_xP said:
    Most will never reopen if that comes to pass.

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    It doesnt matter to.me whether the govt locks or unlocks or releases the stricture of lockdown. We won't he going anywhere in public until.next year at least. I have a 90 yr old father in.law to consider and i am not in the spring of youth either.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Charles said:

    Let me put it another way: would and if those Cobra meetings made different decisions if the PM had been there?

    We will never know, but that question is key to whether BoZo can throw Hancock under the bus
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    https://twitter.com/prcmarshall/status/1251730693815705600?s=20
    https://twitter.com/prcmarshall/status/1251732031815462913?s=20
    https://twitter.com/prcmarshall/status/1251732692011552769?s=20
    https://twitter.com/prcmarshall/status/1251733412320366594?s=20
    https://twitter.com/prcmarshall/status/1251733827103395841?s=20

    While he's right that it appears to be more (to an extent in hindsight) "Poor advice" rather than "ignored advice" Ministers still get to carry the can. What questions didn't they ask? Who did they get to play "devil's advocate" and so on.

    Meanwhile, I assume those calling for Hancock's head will also be calling for the heads of his peers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, where responsibility also lies?

    LOL, you cannot help yourself, unfortunately he who pays the piper pays the tune, they like all the glory and should be the ones in the tumbrils. They have shafted the devolved nations, just a pity we do not have a leader in Scotland who would tell them to GTF and follow our own path rather than lapdogs to a bunch of shysters and conmen.
    The devolved countries get no seats at Cobra, get no say in what is happening , even if allowed to be on the end of a phone being told what they can and cannot do.
    I know you are a paid acolyte of the Tory government but maybe give it a rest now and again.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Once again, Gove doesn't exactly stick up for the boss...

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1251800003338780673
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I am not certain this is the robust defense it was supposed to be...

    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1251782028061749249

    Gove is the slimeball of slimeballs, if that little rat can stick the knife in you can be sure he will.
    interesting arrangement of words.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Maybe this is a pre-weekend thing, but the nearest reasonable sized city to me, Nottingham, appears to have had no new cases on Friday.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited April 2020
    Nigelb said:

    BTW, an excellent article, Alastair. One of your best.

    Definitely. And a shout out to yesterday's from DH too. The one that told us how the government have screwed up our pandemic response.

    The Sunday Times seems to have got a hold of that piece and they have fleshed it out a bit. Utterly devastating expose, is what I'm hearing.

    Complacency + Incompetence = ????

    The ???? because this is still early days and there is much "fog of war".
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264
    On topic:

    As to what comes next, that’s down to us. The talk should less be of boycotts and more of how we can put in place appropriate insurance against such low probability high impact risks. What premium, if any, are we prepared to pay for them?

    We could, of course, start by sourcing our own ventilators instead of joining with 27 other countries in the hope of finding them somewhere in China. But that would be an open-and-shut case of manslaughter, according to Mr Meeks passim.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Scott_xP said:

    Once again, Gove doesn't exactly stick up for the boss...

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1251800003338780673

    There will indeed. This will be the biggest and most high profile public inquiry in decades.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    If I were the Times I’d get my lawyers onto Jones like they used to do with OGH
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    murali_s said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Both are unscrupulous lying lazy egotistic wankers as well
    +1.

    But beware the Trump and Johnson fanbois - there's quite a few of these morons who live on this blog!
    The issue is it is lazy to paint them as the same or equally bad in my opinion. Its comforting but wrong . I've long thought Boris lazy, egotistical and disagreed with many of his policy choices, but I just cannot equate him with Trumps level of vanity, offensiveness, ignorance and divisiveness.

    I dont think one needs to be a fanboy to be wary of the comparisons of the two being taken too far.
    No but there are other similarities between the President and Prime Minister: perhaps not unrelated to their backgrounds in television. They have a similar way of speaking in convoluted sentences as their minds wander off-topic; sometimes shooting themselves in the foot as they give voice to an ill-advised joke or addendum that suddenly pops into their heads, like Trump's "not that kind of model" or Boris's hope to see his mother tacked onto his explanation of why he could not see her, to take two recent examples.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited April 2020

    Mr. B, that discharging line, assuming it's accurate, seems very foolish.

    Given the Nightingales are thankfully under-used, they could perhaps be utilised as a temporary (fortnight, say) place for care home residents prior to being returned on a permanent basis.

    It is:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/discharging-coronavirus-patients-care-homes-madness-government/

    Separately confirmed to me by someone who works for Public Health England, and is disgusted by the indifference.

    It is utterly pointless locking down the most vulnerable, and then recklessly exposing them to infection.

    There ‘there is no demand for testing’ line from a day or so back is also bullshit. My fathers’s care home (of forty to fifty residents) was allocated a total of two swabs.

    I think somewhere around forty percent of the resident have died in the last ten days.

    (edit) You suggestion is, of course, plain common sense. That it occurred to you in five minutes, and apparently escaped the Health Secretary for five weeks or more, says it all.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Who would pay good money to read the jingoistic trash pumped out by the crap newspapers. maybe if there was a bit of journalism rather than just cut and pasting crap from the government and their paid tossers.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Shocked, absolutely shocked, that the Health Secretary rather than the Prime Minister would chair meetings to discuss a virus the government's scientific advisors were calling "low risk" or "moderate risk".

    What kind of government is this in which the Health Secretary could chair a Health meeting? Do they think we have some sort of Cabinet style of government?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    I suspect the "since the outbreak began" in that official response has been carefully crafted to suggest that Boris received briefings earlier than he did. My guess is that it means "outbreak in the UK" while suggesting he's been having personal briefings back when it was a Chinese and then an Italian problem only.
    My you are cynical aren’t you 😆
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I am not certain this is the robust defense it was supposed to be...

    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1251782028061749249

    Gove is the slimeball of slimeballs, if that little rat can stick the knife in you can be sure he will.
    interesting arrangement of words.
    OKC, I was trying to be polite so as not to upset the snowflakes.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. B, that sounds utterly barmy.

    A lack of swabs is one thing, but the placing of people who had/have coronavirus in care homes, without an intervening period (which could be readily provided in Nightingale hospitals) is quite another.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    Sandpit said:

    Socky said:

    Good piece, there's a lot that justifies a boycott of China (not least the Uighur genocide) but it's weird to want to do it over something the Chinese already want to fix

    Have they fixed the wet markets?
    Yep, they hired security guards to stop people taking photos.
    Sounds as if they hired a consultant from Metropolitan Police...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.

    Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html

    Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.
    There's obviously a concerted effort going on now to fix the narrative that it's only China to blame, now that there's a risk of people getting angry with western governments.

    The timing of anonymous reports of secret reports from December, the stories planted in tame newspapers and journalists, it's classic stuff. The sudden concern about human rights, and animal rights, in people who previously showed no concern (in many cases more likely to go on bizarre anti vegan and anti ECHR rants).

    I say screw China!

    But the buck stops at no. 10 (and in the White House for the US).
    Tame journalists like CNN?
    There are tame journalists within all news organisations.
    That is the price of having sources in government.
    In UK it is all we have
    A little unfair, malcolm. There’s certainly a very large over-representation of them in the most prominent positions.

    And we have others who are merely incompetent.
    We have very few real journalists comparable to what journalism meant years ago. Little investigation of anything other than whether some z lister met another z lister or government prepared propaganda sheets.
    They don't even edit the grammar or spelling nowadays.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited April 2020
    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    isam said:

    I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.

    https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1251630747078836224
    “He’d got his girlfriend pregnant”

    Isn’t Carole lovely?
    Yep.

    Obviously his girlfriend had nothing to do with it.

    "Codswalloper the Correction" rides again, in a new film by George Marshall.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Shocked, absolutely shocked, that the Health Secretary rather than the Prime Minister would chair meetings to discuss a virus the government's scientific advisors were calling "low risk" or "moderate risk".

    What kind of government is this in which the Health Secretary could chair a Health meeting? Do they think we have some sort of Cabinet style of government?

    The private sector were already asking people to work at home before the PM got involved. If CEOs can do it, I don’t see why the PM can’t.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Scott_xP said:
    Surprised you've included that tweet, since it seems a reasonable defence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    Mr. B, that sounds utterly barmy.

    A lack of swabs is one thing, but the placing of people who had/have coronavirus in care homes, without an intervening period (which could be readily provided in Nightingale hospitals) is quite another.

    Or any other temporary facility. Quite.

    That these mass outbreaks within care homes are happening during lockdown also significantly degrades the overall effectiveness of the lockdown (as well as killing thousands of residents). Care home staff will be, of course, unwittingly vectoring the virus back out into the community.
    They are and, will be, taking the best precautions they can, but they face a situation as difficult as many hospitals treating Covid. without much of either the equipment or expertise.

    On the swabs, you may recall in Friday’s briefing we were told that there was excess testing capacity, owing to a lack of demand. That ‘lack of demand’ is clearly either untrue, or of the government’s making.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    I really wish some of you lot would try to be a politician rather than just criticise all the time. I watched a BBC report from Moscow yesterday where ambulance drivers had to wait for 9 hours in a queue with a seriously ill patient in the back. Is that happening here? This is a once in a 100 year pandemic and somehow the Government was supposed to have covered every single base. What they have done throughout is follow the medical professionals advice. This is a disease that no one has seen before and it behaves in the oddest way. The most important thing that the Government has done is to ensure that the NHS was not overwhelmed and they have done that spectacularly well, in fact probably too well. It cracks me up that the slightest criticism of teachers on this site is met with howls of derision yet most of you think you would do a far better job than politicians.

    Bless. Let’s have an 8pm clap for the politicians, the true victims of this crisis.

    It might answer the question of what sound does one hand clapping make.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    UK care home Covid-19 deaths 'may be five times government estimate'
    Charity estimates 7,500 fatalities so far but says precise figure difficult to gauge
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/18/uk-care-home-covid-19-deaths-may-be-five-times-government-estimate
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Surprised you've included that tweet, since it seems a reasonable defence.
    Not all posts are aimed at making a point, some are to air facts.
    However, if the relevant secretary of state were always only necessary then there would never be a need for the PM to attend.
    The fact that the PM didn't think it necessary to attend or to refrain from shaking hands with Coronavirus victims does point to him not initially taking the outbreak seriously enough.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.

    Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html

    Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.
    There's obviously a concerted effort going on now to fix the narrative that it's only China to blame, now that there's a risk of people getting angry with western governments.

    The timing of anonymous reports of secret reports from December, the stories planted in tame newspapers and journalists, it's classic stuff. The sudden concern about human rights, and animal rights, in people who previously showed no concern (in many cases more likely to go on bizarre anti vegan and anti ECHR rants).

    I say screw China!

    But the buck stops at no. 10 (and in the White House for the US).
    Tame journalists like CNN?
    There are tame journalists within all news organisations.
    That is the price of having sources in government.
    In UK it is all we have
    A little unfair, malcolm. There’s certainly a very large over-representation of them in the most prominent positions.

    And we have others who are merely incompetent.
    We have very few real journalists comparable to what journalism meant years ago. Little investigation of anything other than whether some z lister met another z lister or government prepared propaganda sheets.
    They don't even edit the grammar or spelling nowadays.
    We have some excellent ones on this site. Albeit they don’t generally pursue it as a career.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    kle4 said:

    Surprised you've included that tweet, since it seems a reasonable defence.

    Depends how many COBRA meeting the PM doesn't attend

    https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/1251785650581524480
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    eadric said:

    This is a load of wank. Sorry. I keep waiting for the bit where Brexit gets the blame, as the heroic Beijing Remainers strive to solve the British bug

    Underneath that's exactly what he's thinking.

    Because he's obsessed by Brexit and that's how he thinks.
    Just take a look at the pair of you. I’m used to people replying to what they think I’ve written rather than what I’ve actually written, but this is next level stuff.

    I’m reminded of the Woody Allen joke about being thrown out of the metaphysics exam for cheating because he looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to him.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    malcolmg said:

    Who would pay good money to read the jingoistic trash pumped out by the crap newspapers. maybe if there was a bit of journalism rather than just cut and pasting crap from the government and their paid tossers.
    You’re being a bit harsh on The National there.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    Really, really unimportant Cobra meetings?
    That’s why I don’t like the obsession with “cobra” as media branding. It is literally just Cabinet Office Briefing Room A. By convention all meetings chaired by the PM are held there.

    But there were multiple Cobra meetings working through the detail of options and consequences. Chaired by the Health Secretary who was responsible for briefing the PM

    When it cane to Cobra meeting drew all the threads together and needed to make decisions s the PM chaired it in person.

    That strikes me as government working g as it should.

    Let me put it another way: would and if those Cobra meetings made different decisions if the PM had been there?
    COBRA meeting attendance is a convenient summary of the wider accusation, which is that the Government was nonchalant about the pandemic long after it was sensible to do so, and that Johnson allowed himself to be preoccupied with other matters. I'm not especially concerned with who met in Briefing Room A, but the clear signal of consistent non-attendance - borne out by public statements - was that it was seen as a secondary problem best dealt with by the relevant Minister.

    Given the obvious spread of the disease - in Italy, if one chooses to shrug off China - that was grossly irresponsible. If a company downplayed obvious risks to its workforce while members of the Board attended to private matters and a large number of the staff died as a result, you would expect rather severe legal consequences, wouldn't you?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited April 2020

    I really wish some of you lot would try to be a politician rather than just criticise all the time. I watched a BBC report from Moscow yesterday where ambulance drivers had to wait for 9 hours in a queue with a seriously ill patient in the back. Is that happening here? This is a once in a 100 year pandemic and somehow the Government was supposed to have covered every single base. What they have done throughout is follow the medical professionals advice. This is a disease that no one has seen before and it behaves in the oddest way. The most important thing that the Government has done is to ensure that the NHS was not overwhelmed and they have done that spectacularly well, in fact probably too well. It cracks me up that the slightest criticism of teachers on this site is met with howls of derision yet most of you think you would do a far better job than politicians.

    I think we are often too hard on politicians, we expect too much from them (though they also do promise too much). I don't think that means criticism will be unfounded, or even some criticism right now in the thick of things unwarranted, but I do think that even where there have been or will be failures we will need to consider that some failures will have been unavoidable, and that not all failures are of the same magnitude.

    But there have been political choices as well, and there willbe political consequences
    Nigelb said:

    UK care home Covid-19 deaths 'may be five times government estimate'
    Charity estimates 7,500 fatalities so far but says precise figure difficult to gauge
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/18/uk-care-home-covid-19-deaths-may-be-five-times-government-estimate

    Diffficult to gauge, so let's gauge it for you with this estimate.

    But I am sure it is terrible. It took the media about 3 weeks to start talking about them not being in figures, so a ways to go before how bad it is is known I expect.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited April 2020

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Surprised you've included that tweet, since it seems a reasonable defence.
    Not all posts are aimed at making a point, some are to air facts.
    .
    Not with Scott's posting of tweets! As he has followed up in reply, it was to make a point, the point just was not apparent to me.
  • PPE from Turkey today delayed

    HMG will need to have answers

    Not good
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    Really, really unimportant Cobra meetings?
    For a moderate emergency...

    That's the failing here, the complacency of our "experts" while other countries were taking this seriously and looking at lockdown and beyond ours were still talking about a moderate crisis and allowing large events to go ahead. The disaster has come from our experts.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    The idea that it was all some hidden mystery is, however, absurd. I was no great seer but I concluded my article on 19 February with the words:

    “Right now we are at a crisis in the true sense of the word, a moment when we do not know which course a disease is going to take. The stakes are very high indeed. Those of us who are not experts must hope that those who are find a way to keep Covid-19 tamed. The alternatives are just awful.”

    It turns out that the Prime Minister was asleep at the wheel.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    I really wish some of you lot would try to be a politician rather than just criticise all the time. I watched a BBC report from Moscow yesterday where ambulance drivers had to wait for 9 hours in a queue with a seriously ill patient in the back. Is that happening here? This is a once in a 100 year pandemic and somehow the Government was supposed to have covered every single base. What they have done throughout is follow the medical professionals advice. This is a disease that no one has seen before and it behaves in the oddest way. The most important thing that the Government has done is to ensure that the NHS was not overwhelmed and they have done that spectacularly well, in fact probably too well. It cracks me up that the slightest criticism of teachers on this site is met with howls of derision yet most of you think you would do a far better job than politicians.

    I think we are often too hard on politicians, we expect too much from them (though they also do promise too much). I don't think that means criticism will be unfounded, or even some criticism right now in the thick of things unwarranted, but I do think that even where there have been or will be failures we will need to consider that some failures will have been unavoidable, and that not all failures are of the same magnitude.

    But there have been political choices as well, and there willbe political consequences
    Nigelb said:

    UK care home Covid-19 deaths 'may be five times government estimate'
    Charity estimates 7,500 fatalities so far but says precise figure difficult to gauge
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/18/uk-care-home-covid-19-deaths-may-be-five-times-government-estimate

    Diffficult to gauge, so let's gauge it for you with this estimate.

    But I am sure it is terrible. It took the media about 3 weeks to start talking about them not being in figures, so a ways to go before how bad it is is known I expect.
    I think it’s fair to say I’ve made reasonable attempts to give this government the benefit of the doubt on its handling of the crisis.
    But in some respects (testing and strategy) it is increasingly clear that it is flat footed, and in others (care homes) criminally incompetent.

    And worryingly, the former might yet turn out considerably more consequential than the latter.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    And we now know he ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed painting a costume dragon
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Feels like a more heat than light day on PB.

    Meanwhile wrestling with what to do about father in home with CV19. The home is not communicating at all well, which suggests they are struggling. Phone calls mostly not answered, when you do get through you get carefully worded replies and emails not replied to.

    Contemplating busting Dad out, although not sure is that is wise, legal or because of prescriptions etc technically possible.

    So play nice on PB, this thing isn’t over.

    I don’t know what to advise, especially without knowing your father’s particular circumstances, but you have my absolute sympathy.

    +1 - that sounds a really tough dilemma. Perhaps discuss urgently with his GP, who would coverr the prescriptions aspect if (s)he agrees with taking him out of there?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I am not certain this is the robust defense it was supposed to be...

    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1251782028061749249

    Gove is the slimeball of slimeballs, if that little rat can stick the knife in you can be sure he will.
    Don't disagree.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    Really, really unimportant Cobra meetings?
    That’s why I don’t like the obsession with “cobra” as media branding. It is literally just Cabinet Office Briefing Room A. By convention all meetings chaired by the PM are held there.

    But there were multiple Cobra meetings working through the detail of options and consequences. Chaired by the Health Secretary who was responsible for briefing the PM

    When it cane to Cobra meeting drew all the threads together and needed to make decisions s the PM chaired it in person.

    That strikes me as government working g as it should.

    Let me put it another way: would and if those Cobra meetings made different decisions if the PM had been there?
    COBRA meeting attendance is a convenient summary of the wider accusation, which is that the Government was nonchalant about the pandemic long after it was sensible to do so, and that Johnson allowed himself to be preoccupied with other matters. I'm not especially concerned with who met in Briefing Room A, but the clear signal of consistent non-attendance - borne out by public statements - was that it was seen as a secondary problem best dealt with by the relevant Minister.

    Given the obvious spread of the disease - in Italy, if one chooses to shrug off China - that was grossly irresponsible. If a company downplayed obvious risks to its workforce while members of the Board attended to private matters and a large number of the staff died as a result, you would expect rather severe legal consequences, wouldn't you?
    I think we have to differentiate between 'the government' ie Boris and his gang and 'government' ie the great inertial mass of the bureaucratic state with its leadership of smug, self-satisfied Sir Humphreys.

    Neither is anywhere as good as it thinks it is.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    The idea that it was all some hidden mystery is, however, absurd. I was no great seer but I concluded my article on 19 February with the words:

    “Right now we are at a crisis in the true sense of the word, a moment when we do not know which course a disease is going to take. The stakes are very high indeed. Those of us who are not experts must hope that those who are find a way to keep Covid-19 tamed. The alternatives are just awful.”

    It turns out that the Prime Minister was asleep at the wheel.

    How much do you blame the scientists? If the government was following their advice, it’s hard to be too critical, but like everyone else on here I’d like to think I’d have been a bit more cautious.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    Really, really unimportant Cobra meetings?
    That’s why I don’t like the obsession with “cobra” as media branding. It is literally just Cabinet Office Briefing Room A. By convention all meetings chaired by the PM are held there.

    But there were multiple Cobra meetings working through the detail of options and consequences. Chaired by the Health Secretary who was responsible for briefing the PM

    When it cane to Cobra meeting drew all the threads together and needed to make decisions s the PM chaired it in person.

    That strikes me as government working g as it should.

    Let me put it another way: would and if those Cobra meetings made different decisions if the PM had been there?
    What it tells me Charles is that the alarm bells were not ringing nearly loud enough. By early February it should have been obvious that this was not just a matter for the Health Secretary but a national emergency that was going to involve almost every arm of government. Whether that failure was systemic, with the relevant experts not having a loud enough voice in the decision making process, or a result of innumerate and distracted politicians failing to grasp what they were being told will no doubt be the central point of the inevitable inquiry.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    The idea that it was all some hidden mystery is, however, absurd. I was no great seer but I concluded my article on 19 February with the words:

    “Right now we are at a crisis in the true sense of the word, a moment when we do not know which course a disease is going to take. The stakes are very high indeed. Those of us who are not experts must hope that those who are find a way to keep Covid-19 tamed. The alternatives are just awful.”

    It turns out that the Prime Minister was asleep at the wheel.

    I'm pretty sure Theresa May would have turned up to the COBR meetings. Particularly if told the UK was facing an imminent pandemic that could claim 500 000 lives.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    I really wish some of you lot would try to be a politician rather than just criticise all the time. I watched a BBC report from Moscow yesterday where ambulance drivers had to wait for 9 hours in a queue with a seriously ill patient in the back. Is that happening here? This is a once in a 100 year pandemic and somehow the Government was supposed to have covered every single base. What they have done throughout is follow the medical professionals advice. This is a disease that no one has seen before and it behaves in the oddest way. The most important thing that the Government has done is to ensure that the NHS was not overwhelmed and they have done that spectacularly well, in fact probably too well. It cracks me up that the slightest criticism of teachers on this site is met with howls of derision yet most of you think you would do a far better job than politicians.

    Yes. Before criticizing Johnson you should walk a mile in his shoes.

    So I've done that. And what a walk it was. Lovely scenery, GE triumph, construction of the court of King Boris, nice long holiday in the Caribbean, power grab for the Treasury, a father again, nothing to spoil the view at all. OK, some wibbling from a few science bods about that funny sounding virus spreading out of China, but apart from that.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    I’m probably late to the party with this one but I thought it had some interesting nuggets

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1251064925671260161
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    The idea that it was all some hidden mystery is, however, absurd. I was no great seer but I concluded my article on 19 February with the words:

    “Right now we are at a crisis in the true sense of the word, a moment when we do not know which course a disease is going to take. The stakes are very high indeed. Those of us who are not experts must hope that those who are find a way to keep Covid-19 tamed. The alternatives are just awful.”

    It turns out that the Prime Minister was asleep at the wheel.

    How has he "ducked out of a COBRA meeting" when he wasn't due at it?

    The Health Secretary chaired a Health meeting as is literally his job under Cabinet government. Is your objection to us having a Cabinet?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    The idea that it was all some hidden mystery is, however, absurd. I was no great seer but I concluded my article on 19 February with the words:

    “Right now we are at a crisis in the true sense of the word, a moment when we do not know which course a disease is going to take. The stakes are very high indeed. Those of us who are not experts must hope that those who are find a way to keep Covid-19 tamed. The alternatives are just awful.”

    It turns out that the Prime Minister was asleep at the wheel.

    Any opinion on the lack of restrictions on air travel to this country ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    DavidL said:

    What it tells me Charles is that the alarm bells were not ringing nearly loud enough. By early February it should have been obvious that this was not just a matter for the Health Secretary but a national emergency that was going to involve almost every arm of government. Whether that failure was systemic, with the relevant experts not having a loud enough voice in the decision making process, or a result of innumerate and distracted politicians failing to grasp what they were being told will no doubt be the central point of the inevitable inquiry.

    The spin line now is that BoZo didn't think it was serious enough to attend COBRA, but he was getting 2 briefings a week from the CMO
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    Will the PM host an emergency CAMRA meeting?

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-how-the-pandemic-could-cause-a-shortage-of-beer-and-fizzy-drinks-11975329

    Coronavirus: Fears of beer shortage as carbon dioxide supplies fizzle out
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    We're seeing a lot of this, not least on this site.

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/1251593226915590148
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    Perhaps they are and Boris just couldn't be arsed - perfectly plausible with his reputation.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    PPE from Turkey today delayed

    HMG will need to have answers

    Not good

    The ultimate answer is that we need to become less dependent upon imports for vital supplies.

    Whether the government has realised this yet is something I'm not sure of.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    The idea that it was all some hidden mystery is, however, absurd. I was no great seer but I concluded my article on 19 February with the words:

    “Right now we are at a crisis in the true sense of the word, a moment when we do not know which course a disease is going to take. The stakes are very high indeed. Those of us who are not experts must hope that those who are find a way to keep Covid-19 tamed. The alternatives are just awful.”

    It turns out that the Prime Minister was asleep at the wheel.

    Any opinion on the lack of restrictions on air travel to this country ?
    It seems a very simple step for the government to take to signal that no one is outside the scope of these measures. It’s probably more symbolic than anything but it mystifies me why the government refuses to give that symbol.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Also, very good article @AlastairMeeks. The part about risky business practices being bailed definitely rings true. Long, fragile supply chains preferred for cheapness should not have been bailed out by the state. Companies who pursued them chose those at the expense of domestic manufacturing or more shock resistant imports because of cost savings. It should be up to the shareholders who have benefited from those cost savings to now step in and save the companies effected, not the state. They wanted the higher returns in the good times at the expense of jobs in the UK but now they baulk at the losses.

    If there is to be any reckoning then it should be with those companies who have pursued these strategies.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Scottish Government having to do it themselves, Carlotta will be raging.


    Flight brings vital equipment from China to Scotland.

    A charter flight carrying essential personal protective equipment (PPE) and NHS supplies has landed in Scotland.

    The cargo which included around 10 million face masks as well as infusion pumps for Intensive Care Units and virus collecting kits for use in health laboratories, landed at Glasgow Prestwick Airport from China on Saturday morning.

    Minister for Trade, Investment and Innovation Ivan McKee said:

    “Scotland’s health and social care system is facing unprecedented demand.

    “Protecting staff working on the frontline is an absolute priority which is why we have been working at pace with the NHS and manufacturers both in Scotland and internationally to improve and increase the supply of PPE.

    “This charter flight, carrying additional equipment ordered by the Scottish Government, is significant and we will be focusing the distribution of these supplies to health and social care settings over the coming days.

    “In these incredibly challenging times the Scottish Government will continue to do all it can to make health and social care staff feel as safe as possible in their workplace.”

    Jim Miller, Director of Procurement, Commissioning and Facilities at NHS National Services Scotland (NSS), said:

    “This delivery is the result of a painstaking collective effort involving multiple partners working together to provide our NHS and social care colleagues with the PPE they need to keep them safe.

    “Together with supply partners and Scottish Government, NSS continues to work 24/7 to source and supply the PPE that Scotland needs to fight COVID-19.”
    https://www.facebook.com/scott.mcilwrick/videos/10158412866754740/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited April 2020

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Feels like a more heat than light day on PB.

    Meanwhile wrestling with what to do about father in home with CV19. The home is not communicating at all well, which suggests they are struggling. Phone calls mostly not answered, when you do get through you get carefully worded replies and emails not replied to.

    Contemplating busting Dad out, although not sure is that is wise, legal or because of prescriptions etc technically possible.

    So play nice on PB, this thing isn’t over.

    I don’t know what to advise, especially without knowing your father’s particular circumstances, but you have my absolute sympathy.

    +1 - that sounds a really tough dilemma. Perhaps discuss urgently with his GP, who would coverr the prescriptions aspect if (s)he agrees with taking him out of there?
    My son in laws father (87) is being kept in his home by the authorities despite being in terrible health, falling nearly daily, on a permanent catheter, and confused. He has 4 carers a day and when he falls my son in law or his sister have to attend in ppe before an ambulance is called

    On each occasions recently the paramedics stabilise him and then leave him with his carers. He should be in a nursing home or hospital but neither will take him.

    The really sad issue is his wife is in dementia care in a nearby nursing home but they with not take him to be with her

    This catastrophe is changing so many lives and seems neverending




  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    edited April 2020

    PPE from Turkey today delayed

    HMG will need to have answers

    Not good

    Lost in the post? I blame Royal Mail.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    tlg86 said:

    Boris Johnson ducked out of a COBRA meeting to be photographed signing a letter so I can’t muster up too much shock that he couldn’t be arsed finding out what might be happening about a pandemic.

    The idea that it was all some hidden mystery is, however, absurd. I was no great seer but I concluded my article on 19 February with the words:

    “Right now we are at a crisis in the true sense of the word, a moment when we do not know which course a disease is going to take. The stakes are very high indeed. Those of us who are not experts must hope that those who are find a way to keep Covid-19 tamed. The alternatives are just awful.”

    It turns out that the Prime Minister was asleep at the wheel.

    How much do you blame the scientists? If the government was following their advice, it’s hard to be too critical, but like everyone else on here I’d like to think I’d have been a bit more cautious.
    It is the government’s job to understand the advice it is getting and the assumptions it is based upon. The scientists may well have been at substantial fault. That does not absolve the government from its failure to understand the advice it received.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    I really wish some of you lot would try to be a politician rather than just criticise all the time. I watched a BBC report from Moscow yesterday where ambulance drivers had to wait for 9 hours in a queue with a seriously ill patient in the back. Is that happening here? This is a once in a 100 year pandemic and somehow the Government was supposed to have covered every single base. What they have done throughout is follow the medical professionals advice. This is a disease that no one has seen before and it behaves in the oddest way. The most important thing that the Government has done is to ensure that the NHS was not overwhelmed and they have done that spectacularly well, in fact probably too well. It cracks me up that the slightest criticism of teachers on this site is met with howls of derision yet most of you think you would do a far better job than politicians.

    Ambulances queuing for hours? We had that even before Covid-19.
    https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/30/queue-23-ambulances-wait-get-overstretched-ae-11977218/

    Remember also Exercise Cygnus on pandemics, which revealed many of the shortcomings we now face but whose findings the government suppressed rather than acting on. This was pre-Boris btw. His hands are as a clean as if he had just sung Happy Birthday twice, so expect to hear more of this in the post-crisis inquiries.
    Exercise Cygnus warned the NHS could not cope with pandemic three years ago but 'terrifying' results were kept secret
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/exclusive-ministers-warned-nhs-could-not-cope-pandemic-three/

    Government supporters offer whataboutery (look at Italy!) or the M&W defence: it is taking all the right measures but not necessarily in the right order, or with any sense of urgency. Conservatives were calling for action in February. As noted at the start of this thread, the government announced today its PPE tsar, called for weeks ago on this very pb. HMG is setting up a website which will be ready "within weeks". It is the lack of urgency that is so depressing and that may well be because, having centralised power at Number 10, Boris and Cummings then disappeared from the scene leaving a vacuum.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    FF43 said:

    We're seeing a lot of this, not least on this site.

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/1251593226915590148

    True, but it should be ‘party they vote for’ rather than ‘government’
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Nigelb said:

    UK care home Covid-19 deaths 'may be five times government estimate'
    Charity estimates 7,500 fatalities so far but says precise figure difficult to gauge
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/18/uk-care-home-covid-19-deaths-may-be-five-times-government-estimate

    Nigel surely we have the Scottish numbers as they are published every week, usual lazy UK = England news, pathetic journalism.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps those meetings aren’t key?
    Really, really unimportant Cobra meetings?
    That’s why I don’t like the obsession with “cobra” as media branding. It is literally just Cabinet Office Briefing Room A. By convention all meetings chaired by the PM are held there.

    But there were multiple Cobra meetings working through the detail of options and consequences. Chaired by the Health Secretary who was responsible for briefing the PM

    When it cane to Cobra meeting drew all the threads together and needed to make decisions s the PM chaired it in person.

    That strikes me as government working g as it should.

    Let me put it another way: would and if those Cobra meetings made different decisions if the PM had been there?
    What it tells me Charles is that the alarm bells were not ringing nearly loud enough. By early February it should have been obvious that this was not just a matter for the Health Secretary but a national emergency that was going to involve almost every arm of government. Whether that failure was systemic, with the relevant experts not having a loud enough voice in the decision making process, or a result of innumerate and distracted politicians failing to grasp what they were being told will no doubt be the central point of the inevitable inquiry.
    Or perhaps they thought that some things were not a price worth paying to restrict infection.

    Its the only reason I can see for their casual attitude to restrictions on foreign travel.
This discussion has been closed.