From the Guardian "The UK’s death toll from Covid-19 has risen to 1,408. The figures published by the Department of Health and Social Care relate to those that had died in hospitals as of 5pm on Sunday. From tomorrow, the ONS will begin producing weekly statistics which take in deaths in the community."
So the official number of deaths in the UK is only for people who die in hospital! Wow. Does anyone know what other countries are doing?
Pretty much the same I think - certainly France is doing this and I think @kamski earlier said this was also what was going on in Germany.
Kamski claimed that in Germany, people who die and have never been tested are not tested post-mortem, which is another bias to the figures but not the same thing. Although it is possible he said what you are claiming as well, but I wasn't reading at the time.
Well, the people from the RKI always say that they are counting everyone. Whether they died in hospitals, care homes, any other institutions or at home. But I guess anyone is at liberty to believe, and to tell other people, whatever he wants.
Of course we will be happy to go back. A millennium of national DNA doesn't change in response to a single crisis. This is pure wishful thinking on your part.
This is a War. The last time we had one the nation that emerged on the other side was quite different to the one going in. You think business as usual for private schools. I think they will be out of kilter with the post corona New Deal society. They will seem a bit 'off' and the habit will wither. Bit like smoking. We will see who is right.
Has anyone’s prediction of post lockdown UK not dovetailed nicely with what they’d like?
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Sweden population density 25 per km^2, UK 270. We are indeed incredibly lucky that anyone anywhere is doing the experiment but there are differences which mean results won't read directly across.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
The Netherlands are also following a simmiler policy for now at least, South Korea also has also not adopted a Lock-down but is doing a lot of testing to to find and isolate even people without symptoms, and seems to be coping better than anywhere.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The Swedes have their bars and restaurants open - no cratering the economy for them.
Foxy is right. I personally think there is a racial angle too, fired up by the red top press.
Maybe, and if so that’s bad, but there’s no getting away from the fact that he looks like he’s done a runner, at a time of national Emergency. His grand mum could die and his dad has already been infected. And he’s sitting out the war in the California sunshine.
Blitz, bombs, East end. Queen mum. Etc
Coronavirus crisis, or not, Harry had to weigh up whether leaving or being lambasted by Piers Morgan every morning on GMB was preferable.
Hasn't he also "done a runner" several months in advance of the outbreak becoming publically noticed? Seems strange to believe he has some clairvoyant capabilities.
Tut tut. Naive. We’re talking about perceptions. It is unfortunate that Harry’s bid for privacy and freedom - and greater personal wealth - has coincided with a global tragedy. But it has. And poor Harry will suffer for that.
And then they skedaddled over the US border to sunny California, before Quentin Quarantino helmed their movie. Not a good look
I thought you had bigger fish to fry than worrying about the optics of Harry and Meghan's departure.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The government should have encouraged voluntary self distressing earlier, but i disagree that the public made it impossible, i think many people where doing it voluntarily, enough to slow the spread. and I think more would have folowed as they noticed others doing the same. especially if doing things like wherein masks started.
The point is whether Swedes will achieve the same effect as a lockdown through collective personal responsibility, without being told what do by government. It's not a free for all. If the Swedish experiment works other places shouldn't see it as a green light for a free for all.
The 0825 to Waterloo this morning. My contact had the carriage to himself.
Travelling by train is probably one of the safest things you can do at the moment.
It's like a personal taxi.
Unless it's the Underground?
Point of order - the last train ride I undertook was coming from Southend Airport after flying from Aberdeen on the 12th March with my mum. We took Greater Anglia from Southend Airport to Shenfield about 6pm - luckily hardly anybody about. Then Shenfield to Romford on the TfL local train. Again not many people about by 7pm. Then a rather nervy bus ride back to Ilford - not too crowded, but people very close to us (parked our suitcases at the rear end of the buggy space and sat in the seats immediately adjacent).
That's it. That was my last journey on public transport. Glad I was able to do Aberdeen to Inverness back on the 6th March!
Normally, up to about a month ago, I would chill in the afternoons by bussing or tubing it to any one of Stratford, Romford, Ilford town centre or elsewhere in east London. Or I would reconnoitre the Crossrail stations such sites in the City/West End/Whitechapel/Canary Wharf/Excel/Abbey Wood/Woolwich. Or maybe the new TfL stations at Barking Riverside/Nine Elms/Battersea.
The MOD police have been doing that for the past week - Catterick has an advantage over other places in that the MOD can be used to supplement local police.
I don't think many people 'Go out for a ride' at least while petrel is over £1.
I'm staying inside myself but I realy don't like living in a country where others get to decide what is and is not essential, and in-foresd by police stopping cars.
The point is whether Swedes will achieve the same effect as a lockdown through collective personal responsibility, without being told what do by government. It's not a free for all. If the Swedish experiment works other places shouldn't see it as a green light for a free for all.
I disagree, Personal responsibility, is a good thing and can be found across the would, at least where governments let the people show it.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The Swedes have their bars and restaurants open - no cratering the economy for them.
The fact that they have a centre left government doing it will have given them some buffer against early criticism. Now their death numbers are rising, that won’t protect them for long, though.
Whilst the government here has been pursuing a well supported strategy, I fear that malcontents at the Telegraph are succeeding in activating the reactionary element. It’s irresponsible and can only hurt the government and the steady path it is trying to take.
I don't think many people 'Go out for a ride' at least while petrel is over £1.
I'm staying inside myself but I realy don't like living in a country where others get to decide what is and is not essential, and in-foresd by police stopping cars.
Yep. It's similar to those people who criticise Johnson for "not acting sooner" to lock the country down. Whilst he/the Govt/the experts might have been wrong in this specific case, personally I would rather live in our country where our leaders' instincts are fundamentally against restriction of personal liberty unless absolutely necessary.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The Swedes have their bars and restaurants open - no cratering the economy for them.
That is a good point, and why Johnson's hitherto excellent rating may fluctuate.
If it works for the Swedes with limited harm to their economy Boris will incurr the wrath of commentators, who once armed with the benefit of hindsight, will claim their genius. Introducing...Nigel Farage and Piers Morgan, to name but two
Actually, my last ever Tube journey was on the day before we flew to Aberdeen. On the afternoon 28th Feb, I took the Central line Gants Hill to Hainault to Woodford to Epping and back again! I think because I had an inkling there would be problems by the time we flew back. A last hurrah!
Apparently they've now moved "permanently" to California. I'd be very intrigued to know exactly what visa status Harry is in seeing as State and USCIS have suspended in-person interviews. Somehow I doubt ICE will be feeling Harry's collar anytime soon though.
Isn't he married to an American?
Yes, as am I, but it took about six months and a lot of paperwork and an in=person interview at the US embassy to get my immigrant visa. Given that Harry & Meghan have been gallivanting around between the UK, Canada and the US, colour me a wee bit suspicious that he has a Green Card waiting to be mailed to him.
Who gives a flying fuck so long as I'm not contributing to their costs.
I do, I'm an American tax payer and I don't want to be contributing to their costs. Although I think in perhaps the first ever instance of my agreeing with something Trump has done, the administration has said the US won't be.
I thought Meghan wanted to stay in Canada until Trump left office?
I don't think many people 'Go out for a ride' at least while petrel is over £1.
I'm staying inside myself but I realy don't like living in a country where others get to decide what is and is not essential, and in-foresd by police stopping cars.
Yep. It's similar to those people who criticise Johnson for "not acting sooner" to lock the country down. Whilst he/the Govt/the experts might have been wrong in this specific case, personally I would rather live in our country where our leaders' instincts are fundamentally against restriction of personal liberty unless absolutely necessary.
I am pity confidant that the government could and should have done a lot sooner, e.g. recommend not shacking hands, and working form home if possible, even if they had started to build these 'nightingale' hospitals, people would have changed behaver.
It is of course possible that Sweden will look like they have mad a big mistake soon, but again in the battle of freedom V Security I think we lean far to much to security.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The government should have encouraged voluntary self distressing earlier, but i disagree that the public made it impossible, i think many people where doing it voluntarily, enough to slow the spread. and I think more would have folowed as they noticed others doing the same. especially if doing things like wherein masks started.
Even now, some people seem to be chomping at the bit to get back to what they usually do, and that after being told in no uncertain terms of the dangers. I fear that, if we had continued with that softer version before what we have now, we would not be talking about reaching a plateau now or for a considerable time. The bottom line is, if the government’s strategy is ignored, we won’t be seeing a softening but a much harsher lockdown. It’s in everyone’s interest not to push towards that.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The Swedes have their bars and restaurants open - no cratering the economy for them.
That is a good point, and why Johnson's hitherto excellent rating may fluctuate.
If it works for the Swedes with limited harm to their economy Boris will incurr the wrath of commentators, who once armed with the benefit of hindsight, will claim their genius. Introducing...Nigel Farage and Piers Morgan, to name but two
Those two won’t be able to claim it, but some will
A moth ago we where testing more than elsewhere in Europe. and should have emulated South Korean levels of testing.
It may now be to late, after all if people who test positive are mostly staying at home, the same as everybody else then what will it change? but if done soon enough in large numbers it could have been kept confined, much better.
Foxy is right. I personally think there is a racial angle too, fired up by the red top press.
Maybe, and if so that’s bad, but there’s no getting away from the fact that he looks like he’s done a runner, at a time of national Emergency. His grand mum could die and his dad has already been infected. And he’s sitting out the war in the California sunshine.
Blitz, bombs, East end. Queen mum. Etc
Coronavirus crisis, or not, Harry had to weigh up whether leaving or being lambasted by Piers Morgan every morning on GMB was preferable.
Because there will be no bad press from anyone in the states? No siree. Is Piers Morgan so powerful? You must be joking. Look I, like most other people, was delighted when they married and they were able to bring a welcome boost to what the Royal family did and how it was perceived. They had some negative vibes here and there which is pretty normal for most royals. The press have a go at most of the royals one time or another. They gave up so quickly though in an apparent scramble for cash and celebrity status - neither of which sit really well with the actual nature of the job. It's sad but hardly a surprise that the public have lost interest in them - when your competing with the Beckhams, Brad Pitt and the Clooneys it's not easy.
My understanding is that the government told the likes of B.O.C and Air Products to try and quadruple their supply a couple of weeks ago.
Also remember oxygen tanks are used in loads of industries and I doubt that demand is anywhere near as high as normal.
The percentage of liquid oxygen used in medicine vs used in industry is pretty small. I fairly small reduction in industrial usage would allow massive increases in medical availability.
Atmospheric distillation setups are often run to get liquid N2, IRRC and let the O2 go. Switch a couple of valves over and hey presto - more liquid O2.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The government should have encouraged voluntary self distressing earlier, but i disagree that the public made it impossible, i think many people where doing it voluntarily, enough to slow the spread. and I think more would have folowed as they noticed others doing the same. especially if doing things like wherein masks started.
Even now, some people seem to be chomping at the bit to get back to what they usually do, and that after being told in no uncertain terms of the dangers. I fear that, if we had continued with that softer version before what we have now, we would not be talking about reaching a plateau now or for a considerable time. The bottom line is, if the government’s strategy is ignored, we won’t be seeing a softening but a much harsher lock-down. It’s in everyone’s interest not to push towards that.
its early days but it looks like the daily death numbers are stabalising and and even if the incress is just slowing then. it sugst the changes in behaver 2 week ago where efective. and that was not a lock down
A moth ago we where testing more than elsewhere in Europe. and should have emulated South Korean levels of testing.
It may now be to late, after all if people who test positive are mostly staying at home, the same as everybody else then what will it change? but if done soon enough in large numbers it could have been kept confined, much better.
Although we should be doing more than we are, it isn't possible to match South Korea, we don't have the enough equipment like PCR machines. You have to remember that South Korea start from a position of having SARs and MERs before, so they already have procedures and equipment in place.
I don't know why Germany has significantly more, or if they manufactured a load of them and so have been able to scale up.
It is why the UK government were so keen on the anti-body test as then we can start ticking off all the plague survivors and not need to worry about them again.
Another thing we need to look at in the future. Critical industries where we are too dependent on other countries. One advantage the US had was apparently they have absolutely crap loads of the PCR machines, but with Trump's dicking around they didn't fire up the Quattro for ages.
The point is whether Swedes will achieve the same effect as a lockdown through collective personal responsibility, without being told what do by government. It's not a free for all. If the Swedish experiment works other places shouldn't see it as a green light for a free for all.
I disagree, Personal responsibility, is a good thing and can be found across the would, at least where governments let the people show it.
Of course personal responsibility is a good thing. Question is whether it's happening to a sufficient level in Sweden.
Early days but from what I can see Sweden is doing a little worse than Denmark and noticeably worse than Finland and Norway amongst its locked down peers. You might decide it's a price worth paying.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
The Netherlands are also following a simmiler policy for now at least, South Korea also has also not adopted a Lock-down but is doing a lot of testing to to find and isolate even people without symptoms, and seems to be coping better than anywhere.
They've closed bars and restaurants and other personal services businesses, are making people work from home, and have banned groups of three or more. I'd say the Dutch repsonse is closer to ours than the Swedes'.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
It's a fair question, but are all front-line staff being tested? How long did it take @Foxy to get a test?
Secondly, if we don't test we have no idea how prevalent the spread of the virus is in the UK.
Finally, there's the issue of trust. If HMG keep saying we are achiveing 10k test per day and that will soon rise to 25k tests per day but in fact we only manage 5-7k they will lose the public's trust.
A moth ago we where testing more than elsewhere in Europe. and should have emulated South Korean levels of testing.
It may now be to late, after all if people who test positive are mostly staying at home, the same as everybody else then what will it change? but if done soon enough in large numbers it could have been kept confined, much better.
Although we should be doing more than we are, it isn't possible to match South Korea, we don't have the enough equipment like PCR machines.
It is why they were so keen on the anti-body test as then we can start ticking off all the plague survivors and not need to worry about them again.
We have had weeks to get the number of test up, Germany has managed it, so i don't understand why we could not. It feels to me that CMO was more intested in 'managing the heard immunity strategy than cantonment and therefor this was not prioritized the way is should have been
Actually, my last ever Tube journey was on the day before we flew to Aberdeen. On the afternoon 28th Feb, I took the Central line Gants Hill to Hainault to Woodford to Epping and back again! I think because I had an inkling there would be problems by the time we flew back. A last hurrah!
A moth ago we where testing more than elsewhere in Europe. and should have emulated South Korean levels of testing.
It may now be to late, after all if people who test positive are mostly staying at home, the same as everybody else then what will it change? but if done soon enough in large numbers it could have been kept confined, much better.
Although we should be doing more than we are, it isn't possible to match South Korea, we don't have the enough equipment like PCR machines.
It is why they were so keen on the anti-body test as then we can start ticking off all the plague survivors and not need to worry about them again.
We have had weeks to get the number of test up, Germany has managed it, so i don't understand why we could not. It feels to me that CMO was more intested in 'managing the heard immunity strategy than cantonment and therefor this was not prioritized the way is should have been
How do you magic up specialist machinery, when everybody else also wants it? Also, you need an arrange of chemical agent as well. Again, there will be huge demand and limited supply.
It is like ventilators. There are only 12 companies in the world that make them at any sort of volume. And it is why the government have gone down the route it has, as the UK has one of those companies.
I have no idea about who makes PCR machines, but it wouldn't shock me to find out it is similar small number of people who make them. And I am guessing a British company isn't one of them or not able to make at massive volume.
The point is whether Swedes will achieve the same effect as a lockdown through collective personal responsibility, without being told what do by government. It's not a free for all. If the Swedish experiment works other places shouldn't see it as a green light for a free for all.
I disagree, Personal responsibility, is a good thing and can be found across the would, at least where governments let the people show it.
Of course personal responsibility is a good thing. Question is whether it's happening to a sufficient level in Sweden.
Early days but from what I can see Sweden is doing a little worse than Denmark and noticeably worse than Finland and Norway amongst its locked down peers. You might decide it's a price worth paying.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
It's a fair question, but are all front-line staff being tested? How long did it take @Foxy to get a test?
Secondly, if we don't test we have no idea how prevalent the spread of the virus is in the UK.
Finally, there's the issue of trust. If HMG keep saying we are achiveing 10k test per day and that will soon rise to 25k tests per day but in fact we only manage 5-7k they will lose the public's trust.
I think he took a couple of days but he can confirm. It should be faster, especially for those with symptoms. But, happily, @Foxy was negative. When do we test him again? It’s a legitimate question.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
The Netherlands are also following a simmiler policy for now at least, South Korea also has also not adopted a Lock-down but is doing a lot of testing to to find and isolate even people without symptoms, and seems to be coping better than anywhere.
They've closed bars and restaurants and other personal services businesses, are making people work from home, and have banned groups of three or more. I'd say the Dutch repsonse is closer to ours than the Swedes'.
OK you may be right, but up to a few days ago they were not, i Havent been folowing any recent changes
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
Testing those that have been in contact with people who are identified as infectious either through symptoms or previous testing so they can be isolated to stop onward transmission. Testing to allow people who are free of the virus to mingle and go about their business.
Absent a vaccine, high levels of testing is the only way to get back to some kind of normality. That is without a high death toll and a collapsed healthcare system, which isn't normality.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
It's a fair question, but are all front-line staff being tested? How long did it take @Foxy to get a test?
Secondly, if we don't test we have no idea how prevalent the spread of the virus is in the UK.
Finally, there's the issue of trust. If HMG keep saying we are achiveing 10k test per day and that will soon rise to 25k tests per day but in fact we only manage 5-7k they will lose the public's trust.
We don't really have that problem in Europe or anywhere else but America as far as I can see. Sure you still get the odd person not taking it seriously but I would say that tends to be born more out of ignorance rather than being a political statement.
US really is a dysfunctional society and it's getting worse not better.
If Boris had locked us in our homes from the start of March, the same people would be screaming, see I told you he is a right wing authoritarian bully that rides roughshod over the law.
I think the defending of China by the Burgon Brigade interesting. We shouldn't blame them for this at all? No responsibility that they tried to cover it up and have lied about the numbers.
My understanding from listening to some scientists working on this, that they although they initially released the genetic data, they have gone back to standard operating procedure of being very funny about things and of release drips and drabs.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
Testing those that have been in contact with people who are identified as infectious either through symptoms or previous testing so they can be isolated to stop onward transmission. Testing to allow people who are free of the virus to mingle and go about their business.
Absent a vaccine, high levels of testing is the only way to get back to some kind of normality. That is without a high death toll and a collapsed healthcare system, which isn't normality.
We gave that form of testing up when we moved to phase 2 about 2 weeks ago. The reason is obvious. When there is so many infected people it is simply not possible to Identify the source of a particular infection.
A moth ago we where testing more than elsewhere in Europe. and should have emulated South Korean levels of testing.
It may now be to late, after all if people who test positive are mostly staying at home, the same as everybody else then what will it change? but if done soon enough in large numbers it could have been kept confined, much better.
Although we should be doing more than we are, it isn't possible to match South Korea, we don't have the enough equipment like PCR machines.
It is why they were so keen on the anti-body test as then we can start ticking off all the plague survivors and not need to worry about them again.
We have had weeks to get the number of test up, Germany has managed it, so i don't understand why we could not. It feels to me that CMO was more intested in 'managing the heard immunity strategy than cantonment and therefor this was not prioritized the way is should have been
How do you magic up specialist machinery, when everybody else also wants it? Also, you need an arrange of chemical agent as well. Again, there will be huge demand and limited supply.
It is like ventilators. There are only 12 companies in the world that make them at any sort of volume. And it is why the government have gone down the route it has, as the UK has one of those companies.
I have no idea about who makes PCR machines, but it wouldn't shock me to find out it is similar small number of people who make them. And I am guessing a British company isn't one of them or not able to make at massive volume.
Absolutely. In defence of the government, you cannot go from 5K to 50k at touch of magic wand. Culturally we haven’t been a hotbed of accurate testing going into this.
French TV 5 currently blowing the Chinese numbers out of the water,pure fabrication.
Surely not...we all believe there were only 3,000 deaths don't we....
I am simultaneously shocked and appalled.
I mean the fact that Prof Ferguson reran his model after entering the Italy data and it spat out that the hospitalization rate was double, not suspicious at all.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
Testing those that have been in contact with people who are identified as infectious either through symptoms or previous testing so they can be isolated to stop onward transmission. Testing to allow people who are free of the virus to mingle and go about their business.
Absent a vaccine, high levels of testing is the only way to get back to some kind of normality. That is without a high death toll and a collapsed healthcare system, which isn't normality.
We gave that form of testing up when we moved to phase 2 about 2 weeks ago. The reason is obvious. When there is so many infected people it is simply not possible to Identify the source of a particular infection.
Nevertheless that's the strategy followed by Korea with a lot of success in keeping transmission rates down (my first point) and some success in keeping the country operating as normal (my second point).
If Boris had locked us in our homes from the start of March, the same people would be screaming, see I told you he is a right wing authoritarian bully that rides roughshod over the law.
I think the defending of China by the Burgon Brigade interesting. We shouldn't blame them for this at all? No responsibility that they tried to cover it up and have lied about the numbers.
My understanding from listening to some scientists working on this, that they although they initially released the genetic data, they have gone back to standard operating procedure of being very funny about things and of release drips and drabs.
Chinese culture and the government's permissive approach to the control of the acknowledged globally damaging aspects thereof, is at the core of the CV problem and is undefendable by anyone with a conscience.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
Testing those that have been in contact with people who are identified as infectious either through symptoms or previous testing so they can be isolated to stop onward transmission. Testing to allow people who are free of the virus to mingle and go about their business.
Absent a vaccine, high levels of testing is the only way to get back to some kind of normality. That is without a high death toll and a collapsed healthcare system, which isn't normality.
We gave that form of testing up when we moved to phase 2 about 2 weeks ago. The reason is obvious. When there is so many infected people it is simply not possible to Identify the source of a particular infection.
Nevertheless that's the strategy followed by Korea with a lot of success in keeping transmission rates down (my first point) and some success in keeping the country operating as normal (my second point).
In order to follow SK though, we not only need to test an order of magnitude more, we also need to allow the state to spy on our every move. Their system doesn't work without both components.
I am not sure many Western citizens would be happy to allow the government to flick a switch and then be able to find out every movement of your cell phone, all the other cell phones owners you can in contact with, every transaction you and all those people made, what public transport you took and who was on that, etc etc etc.
Those sky rocketing poll ratings for Bozo are slowly but surely turning the leftie twitterati mad.
LOL Who do you think are giving the rally round the flag bounce if not rally round at time of crisis right across the spectrum?
Are you saying it’s a lie to question the governments initial response to this? Ask if we were slow to react, Cheltenham for example just hours before to leaping to shut down theatre land and say don’t go in pubs. That there wasn’t two weeks of muddled comms, health sec and Downing Street spokesman on different pages? That the government didn’t flirt with herd immunity before the boffins on the “nhs swamped” modelling won out? To say this is just desperate lefties just making it up is it? 😁
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
Testing those that have been in contact with people who are identified as infectious either through symptoms or previous testing so they can be isolated to stop onward transmission. Testing to allow people who are free of the virus to mingle and go about their business.
Absent a vaccine, high levels of testing is the only way to get back to some kind of normality. That is without a high death toll and a collapsed healthcare system, which isn't normality.
We gave that form of testing up when we moved to phase 2 about 2 weeks ago. The reason is obvious. When there is so many infected people it is simply not possible to Identify the source of a particular infection.
Nevertheless that's the strategy followed by Korea with a lot of success in keeping transmission rates down (my first point) and some success in keeping the country operating as normal (my second point).
It is not possible at our level of infection. It might have been possible at an earlier stage but only at the cost of deferring the peak into a more difficult time. Once we are no longer doing that, and we are not, that is not a reason to test.
The point is whether Swedes will achieve the same effect as a lockdown through collective personal responsibility, without being told what do by government. It's not a free for all. If the Swedish experiment works other places shouldn't see it as a green light for a free for all.
I disagree, Personal responsibility, is a good thing and can be found across the would, at least where governments let the people show it.
Of course personal responsibility is a good thing. Question is whether it's happening to a sufficient level in Sweden.
Early days but from what I can see Sweden is doing a little worse than Denmark and noticeably worse than Finland and Norway amongst its locked down peers. You might decide it's a price worth paying.
I do
The price ("doing a little worse") is the death of people who would not otherwise have died. Big of you to make that decision.
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The Swedes have their bars and restaurants open - no cratering the economy for them.
From what I can gather the Swedes have voluntarily acted with restraint and common sense in the main. Boozed up Brits on the other hand were causing mayhem in Spain chanting "We've all got the virus" and refusing to disperse.
I wish Sweden all the luck in the world but there is absolutely no guarantee that the same approach would have worked in the UK sadly.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
It's a fair question, but are all front-line staff being tested? How long did it take @Foxy to get a test?
Secondly, if we don't test we have no idea how prevalent the spread of the virus is in the UK.
Finally, there's the issue of trust. If HMG keep saying we are achiveing 10k test per day and that will soon rise to 25k tests per day but in fact we only manage 5-7k they will lose the public's trust.
Keep hoping - and watch those poll ratings.
What’s next from you? It’s impossible to get a rally round bounce if you screwed up and made it worse at start?
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
It's a fair question, but are all front-line staff being tested? How long did it take @Foxy to get a test?
Secondly, if we don't test we have no idea how prevalent the spread of the virus is in the UK.
Finally, there's the issue of trust. If HMG keep saying we are achiveing 10k test per day and that will soon rise to 25k tests per day but in fact we only manage 5-7k they will lose the public's trust.
I got tested quickly, but against current policy. I owe someone a favour.
Those sky rocketing poll ratings for Bozo are slowly but surely turning the leftie twitterati mad.
LOL Who do you think are giving the rally round the flag bounce if not rally round at time of crisis right across the spectrum?
Are you saying it’s a lie to question the governments initial response to this? Ask if we were slow to react, Cheltenham for example just hours before to leaping to shut down theatre land and say don’t go in pubs. That there wasn’t two weeks of muddled comms, health sec and Downing Street spokesman on different pages? That the government didn’t flirt with herd immunity before the boffins on the “nhs swamped” modelling won out? To say this is just desperate lefties just making it up is it? 😁
Now have a lie down or a cup of tea and try writing it in English. Then again don't bother as i'll be in bed with some real fiction.
In Denmark we are being told another 2 weeks of lockdown will put us in a position to start opening up again - I am very doubtfu but we’ll see - but a lot of people are complaining about how the Swedes are managing the pandemic - much jealousy of their herd immunity strategy here.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
It's a fair question, but are all front-line staff being tested? How long did it take @Foxy to get a test?
Secondly, if we don't test we have no idea how prevalent the spread of the virus is in the UK.
Finally, there's the issue of trust. If HMG keep saying we are achiveing 10k test per day and that will soon rise to 25k tests per day but in fact we only manage 5-7k they will lose the public's trust.
I got tested quickly, but against current policy. I owe someone a favour.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
Testing those that have been in contact with people who are identified as infectious either through symptoms or previous testing so they can be isolated to stop onward transmission. Testing to allow people who are free of the virus to mingle and go about their business.
Absent a vaccine, high levels of testing is the only way to get back to some kind of normality. That is without a high death toll and a collapsed healthcare system, which isn't normality.
We gave that form of testing up when we moved to phase 2 about 2 weeks ago. The reason is obvious. When there is so many infected people it is simply not possible to Identify the source of a particular infection.
Given the situation now, yes. but we could and should have encouraged voluntary social distancing, earlier and conducted many more tests when there where fewer people affected. i.e. the south Korean approach..
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
Testing those that have been in contact with people who are identified as infectious either through symptoms or previous testing so they can be isolated to stop onward transmission. Testing to allow people who are free of the virus to mingle and go about their business.
Absent a vaccine, high levels of testing is the only way to get back to some kind of normality. That is without a high death toll and a collapsed healthcare system, which isn't normality.
We gave that form of testing up when we moved to phase 2 about 2 weeks ago. The reason is obvious. When there is so many infected people it is simply not possible to Identify the source of a particular infection.
Nevertheless that's the strategy followed by Korea with a lot of success in keeping transmission rates down (my first point) and some success in keeping the country operating as normal (my second point).
It is not possible at our level of infection. It might have been possible at an earlier stage but only at the cost of deferring the peak into a more difficult time. Once we are no longer doing that, and we are not, that is not a reason to test.
Partially agree. It's best not to lose control in the first place. The purpose of lockdown is, or should be from a strategic point of view, is to get that control back so we can do the massive testing once we get things stabilised.
This is the only way we can get out of the hole without a vaccine
It’s no wonder people turn off from politics given the pathetic right v left battle that is going on here. I don’t care who comes out of this ahead in meaningless polls I would rather there was a rational discussion as to best ways forward, short and long term, without continual reference to party political gain. Nobody has all the best ideas, you should be seeking what the best solution for the country rather than who comes out winner.
Gratifying to learn some things haven't changed as a result of the Coronavirus. Carswell is still a fool!
Does that mean you think the Swedes are being fools?
If the whole of the UK was like Oxford north...everyone is well behaved...no multi generational living with oldies already isolated....lots of green space, a good health system, good primary care,. lots of healthy looking people around....I'm sure we could have kept most things open...pubs, restaurants and shops....and schools...just like Sweden....
But the whole of the UK isn't like Oxford north...which is why I find people constantly bringing up Sweden as not helpful...
To a very large extent people where voluntary separating themselves before the lock down, (and would have been better if they where encouraged to do so earlier) its possible that the drop the number dying in the last couple of days was an indication behaveyar changed 2 weeks ago.
This lock-down is seems to me government succoring to presser to be seen to be doing something. and at huge cost to our freedoms and economy.
The flavor I detected from the Facebook posts of my left wing friends was that the economy must be sacrificed, in the same way that turtle doves where in old testament times or humans where in South Amaria
Sweden, the Netherlands or better still South Korea look much better to me.
We're really lucky that the Swedes are experimenting for us.
And I really, really hope they are correct.
Yet the Swedes are not us. When Johnson was trying to put into action even a light version of it, the actions of the British public made if impossible to follow. A less wilful populace then maybe it would work.
The Swedes have their bars and restaurants open - no cratering the economy for them.
From what I can gather the Swedes have voluntarily acted with restraint and common sense in the main. Boozed up Brits on the other hand were causing mayhem in Spain chanting "We've all got the virus" and refusing to disperse.
I wish Sweden all the luck in the world but there is absolutely no guarantee that the same approach would have worked in the UK sadly.
The Swedes are all good and the Brits all bad. The casual racism on the left just gets worse as their frustration grows.
What exactly do you think that would achieve? Front line staff need tested. Those with symptoms bad enough to be hospitalised should be tested. Beyond that what is the testing achieving?
It's a fair question, but are all front-line staff being tested? How long did it take @Foxy to get a test?
Secondly, if we don't test we have no idea how prevalent the spread of the virus is in the UK.
Finally, there's the issue of trust. If HMG keep saying we are achiveing 10k test per day and that will soon rise to 25k tests per day but in fact we only manage 5-7k they will lose the public's trust.
I got tested quickly, but against current policy. I owe someone a favour.
I really struggle to understand who could be ahead of people like you in the queue @Foxy If that is the policy it’s wrong.
Comments
https://unherd.com/2020/03/all-eyes-on-the-swedish-coronavirus-experiment/
But I guess anyone is at liberty to believe, and to tell other people, whatever he wants.
Perhaps we might like to slag off the British construction and project management profession a little less for the next few months?
Also remember oxygen tanks are used in loads of industries and I doubt that demand is anywhere near as high as normal.
Point of order - the last train ride I undertook was coming from Southend Airport after flying from Aberdeen on the 12th March with my mum. We took Greater Anglia from Southend Airport to Shenfield about 6pm - luckily hardly anybody about. Then Shenfield to Romford on the TfL local train. Again not many people about by 7pm. Then a rather nervy bus ride back to Ilford - not too crowded, but people very close to us (parked our suitcases at the rear end of the buggy space and sat in the seats immediately adjacent).
That's it. That was my last journey on public transport. Glad I was able to do Aberdeen to Inverness back on the 6th March!
Normally, up to about a month ago, I would chill in the afternoons by bussing or tubing it to any one of Stratford, Romford, Ilford town centre or elsewhere in east London. Or I would reconnoitre the Crossrail stations such sites in the City/West End/Whitechapel/Canary Wharf/Excel/Abbey Wood/Woolwich. Or maybe the new TfL stations at Barking Riverside/Nine Elms/Battersea.
Those were the days!
I'm staying inside myself but I realy don't like living in a country where others get to decide what is and is not essential, and in-foresd by police stopping cars.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1244692887390035972
Whilst the government here has been pursuing a well supported strategy, I fear that malcontents at the Telegraph are succeeding in activating the reactionary element. It’s irresponsible and can only hurt the government and the steady path it is trying to take.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/fall-in-covid-19-tests-putting-lives-at-risk-critics-claim
If it works for the Swedes with limited harm to their economy Boris will incurr the wrath of commentators, who once armed with the benefit of hindsight, will claim their genius. Introducing...Nigel Farage and Piers Morgan, to name but two
Actually, my last ever Tube journey was on the day before we flew to Aberdeen. On the afternoon 28th Feb, I took the Central line Gants Hill to Hainault to Woodford to Epping and back again! I think because I had an inkling there would be problems by the time we flew back. A last hurrah!
e.g. recommend not shacking hands, and working form home if possible, even if they had started to build these 'nightingale' hospitals, people would have changed behaver.
It is of course possible that Sweden will look like they have mad a big mistake soon, but again in the battle of freedom V Security I think we lean far to much to security.
Why are they so over active in Richmond, N Yorks? This most be the third or fourth tweet I've seen from them.
https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1244662958724169731?s=20
It may now be to late, after all if people who test positive are mostly staying at home, the same as everybody else then what will it change? but if done soon enough in large numbers it could have been kept confined, much better.
Atmospheric distillation setups are often run to get liquid N2, IRRC and let the O2 go. Switch a couple of valves over and hey presto - more liquid O2.
I don't know why Germany has significantly more, or if they manufactured a load of them and so have been able to scale up.
It is why the UK government were so keen on the anti-body test as then we can start ticking off all the plague survivors and not need to worry about them again.
Another thing we need to look at in the future. Critical industries where we are too dependent on other countries. One advantage the US had was apparently they have absolutely crap loads of the PCR machines, but with Trump's dicking around they didn't fire up the Quattro for ages.
Early days but from what I can see Sweden is doing a little worse than Denmark and noticeably worse than Finland and Norway amongst its locked down peers. You might decide it's a price worth paying.
Secondly, if we don't test we have no idea how prevalent the spread of the virus is in the UK.
Finally, there's the issue of trust. If HMG keep saying we are achiveing 10k test per day and that will soon rise to 25k tests per day but in fact we only manage 5-7k they will lose the public's trust.
It is like ventilators. There are only 12 companies in the world that make them at any sort of volume. And it is why the government have gone down the route it has, as the UK has one of those companies.
I have no idea about who makes PCR machines, but it wouldn't shock me to find out it is similar small number of people who make them. And I am guessing a British company isn't one of them or not able to make at massive volume.
You have to compare apples with apples comrade....
Absent a vaccine, high levels of testing is the only way to get back to some kind of normality. That is without a high death toll and a collapsed healthcare system, which isn't normality.
https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1244609035514626048
US really is a dysfunctional society and it's getting worse not better.
I think the defending of China by the Burgon Brigade interesting. We shouldn't blame them for this at all? No responsibility that they tried to cover it up and have lied about the numbers.
My understanding from listening to some scientists working on this, that they although they initially released the genetic data, they have gone back to standard operating procedure of being very funny about things and of release drips and drabs.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7848063/Mother-25-underwent-double-mastectomy-chemotherapy-doctors-MISDIAGNOSED-breast-cancer.html
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/regulator-repeats-warnings-on-forensics-shortcomings-in-england-and-wales/4011264.article#/
https://www.ft.com/content/fa747fbd-c19e-4bac-9c37-d46afc9393fb
I am not sure many Western citizens would be happy to allow the government to flick a switch and then be able to find out every movement of your cell phone, all the other cell phones owners you can in contact with, every transaction you and all those people made, what public transport you took and who was on that, etc etc etc.
Are you saying it’s a lie to question the governments initial response to this? Ask if we were slow to react, Cheltenham for example just hours before to leaping to shut down theatre land and say don’t go in pubs. That there wasn’t two weeks of muddled comms, health sec and Downing Street spokesman on different pages? That the government didn’t flirt with herd immunity before the boffins on the “nhs swamped” modelling won out? To say this is just desperate lefties just making it up is it? 😁
It's the highlight of my day.
Given the track record of the leading figures in this government, it would be very rash to assume they haven’t.
I wish Sweden all the luck in the world but there is absolutely no guarantee that the same approach would have worked in the UK sadly.
It must be awful to have opinion polls on your likeability. Can you imagine if we had a mailchimp poll on the likeability of PB contributors?
This is the only way we can get out of the hole without a vaccine
But the whole of the UK isn't like Oxford north...which is why I find people constantly bringing up Sweden as not helpful...