Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Even LAB voters are giving Johnson positive leader ratings

245

Comments

  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250
    Endillion said:

    Nice try. All schools are closed (not just private ones), the increased NHS spending is temporary (unless you think, for example, that the Excel centre has been nationalised, rather than hired out for a bit while it has zero other commercial value) and that link you posted is a million miles away from being summarisable as "free broadband".

    "Peacetime history" is an interesting phrase. The pandemic has been frequently compared to the Second World War in terms of impact, which indicates that it's wartime history that bears closer comparison. Would any of the measures undergone so far, look particularly unusual in the context of what a very much Conservative-led administration sanctioned between 1939 and 1945?

    OK, points noted and (mostly) accepted. But remember how it ended, politically, in 1945. Labour landslide. One can see similar happening here as 'community' rises up the charts and 'individualism' plummets. I think the savvy Johnson is wise to this already - note the stressed remark in his latest sickbed video that "there IS such a thing as society". He is trying to mitigate the electoral turnaround that he knows is coming.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    I need another shower. I hate having to agree with Morgan.
    Now you know how us Liverpool fans felt during the last Manchester Derby.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    edited March 2020
    Further details of the Deltapoll, 66% support the army on the streets to enforce movement restructions, 79% support more police on the streets to enforce restrictions, 59% support jailing those who break movement restrictions and 63% support a 9pm curfew

    http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/polls/coronavirus1
  • Options
    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    kinabalu said:

    Endillion said:

    Nice try. All schools are closed (not just private ones), the increased NHS spending is temporary (unless you think, for example, that the Excel centre has been nationalised, rather than hired out for a bit while it has zero other commercial value) and that link you posted is a million miles away from being summarisable as "free broadband".

    "Peacetime history" is an interesting phrase. The pandemic has been frequently compared to the Second World War in terms of impact, which indicates that it's wartime history that bears closer comparison. Would any of the measures undergone so far, look particularly unusual in the context of what a very much Conservative-led administration sanctioned between 1939 and 1945?

    OK, points noted and (mostly) accepted. But remember how it ended, politically, in 1945. Labour landslide. One can see similar happening here as 'community' rises up the charts and 'individualism' plummets. I think the savvy Johnson is wise to this already - note the stressed remark in his latest sickbed video that "there IS such a thing as society". He is trying to mitigate the electoral turnaround that he knows is coming.
    Maybe he'll just spend 350 million on the NHS.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,695

    Foxy said:

    I do find it hilarious that placing most of the population in house arrest, closing schools, cancelling elective surgery, panic-buying ventilators, closing restaurants and pubs, closing most shops, bankrupting whole sectors of the economy, stopping people going for walks in national parks, closing airports, and cancelling all sporting events, is somehow to be celebrated as an implementation of Corbyn's 2019 manifesto. I mean, yes, in some ways it is an implementation, but not in any way you'd want to celebrate.

    I am reminded of the honest environmentalist I encountered. Her vision of the world was where we all live in giant tower blocks, crowded together, fed on food provided and rationed by the state. All work would be provided by the state. All belonging would be provided by the state...

    She didn't seem to understand my interest in mobile justice in such a future. I was especially keen on seeing if I could get a job as a motorcycle-borne justice deliverer.
    She might Dredd the outcome...
    I always like the way that such people fancy that they will be on the top floor of the Hall of Justice, in the PlayAFullRoundOfGolf Office, sipping a relaxing drink....

    As opposed to being a bystander killed by MaMa going a bit postal on some annoying Judges.
    Though high rise living is more environmentally sound in many ways! Gotta keep clear of the Muties in the cursed earth. Not sure @Cyclefree would approve of the legal system...

    https://youtu.be/G-eI5oLlIeY
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250
    Pagan2 said:

    Who in their right mind these days goes with a broadband provider that caps their data? It is not even that expensive for uncapped . I get mine for 28£ a month no cap no throttling. Even my mobile has unlimited data for 25£ a month although admittedly that is throttled in working hours if I exceed 40gb

    Mine is capped. Sounds like I need to get that changed. On the grid.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,957
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Just to correct you.

    Our local private school is open and schooling children from the essential services and is remaining open over Easter.

    Your dislike of public schools is fortunately not shared by most reasonable voters nor the labour party

    I was more thinking about the financial crisis awaiting many private schools post corona. I predict mass closures.

    On your last point, yes I am (sadly) aware that I am in a minority across all groups in recognizing that private schools are one of the most potent engines of inequality that we have. But you know what, I think this might be about to change. I'm not just saying that. I really do.

    Think about it. When we emerge as a nation from this transformational communal experience, are we going to be happy to see a return to the hegemony of elite fee-paying schools that nurses and supermarket workers and binmen and cleaners and firefighters and police officers - and most of those who have busted a gut to keep the show on the road for however long this lasts - cannot afford to send their kids to?

    I sense not. Change is coming and this will be part of it.
    I think you’re making the mistake of assuming they will actually care either way. Most of them will be more interested in ensuring their children have the chance to go to good schools themselves.

    Private schools are, as I have noted many times, already struggling. However, it is unlikely all two thousand odd will close. Maybe four or five hundred - but then a lot of their students will go to other private schools making little overall difference to the numbers.

    The killer for private schools in the medium term is pensions. But that’s also a killer for government finances as well.
    It strikes me that what the private education sector is crying out for is a cheap and cheerful chain store option.

    The way you used to have independent opticians, now you have boots and vision express. Able to exploit economies of scale.

    I reckon the main reason why private schools do better is because the sort of parents who are willing to pay extra to fork out for their children's education are the sort who foster the importance of education in their own children's mindset.

    So essentially you could take all the privately educated kids, put them in the state system (but only with other kids who would have been privately educated) and they would still have better outcomes.

    So in theory you could operate schools on a cheap as chips basis but even being willing to pay a nominal extra fee would ensure grouping among other students with a better chance of higher educational attainment.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I do find it hilarious that placing most of the population in house arrest, closing schools, cancelling elective surgery, panic-buying ventilators, closing restaurants and pubs, closing most shops, bankrupting whole sectors of the economy, stopping people going for walks in national parks, closing airports, and cancelling all sporting events, is somehow to be celebrated as an implementation of Corbyn's 2019 manifesto. I mean, yes, in some ways it is an implementation, but not in any way you'd want to celebrate.

    I am reminded of the honest environmentalist I encountered. Her vision of the world was where we all live in giant tower blocks, crowded together, fed on food provided and rationed by the state. All work would be provided by the state. All belonging would be provided by the state...

    She didn't seem to understand my interest in mobile justice in such a future. I was especially keen on seeing if I could get a job as a motorcycle-borne justice deliverer.
    She might Dredd the outcome...
    I always like the way that such people fancy that they will be on the top floor of the Hall of Justice, in the PlayAFullRoundOfGolf Office, sipping a relaxing drink....

    As opposed to being a bystander killed by MaMa going a bit postal on some annoying Judges.
    Though high rise living is more environmentally sound in many ways! Gotta keep clear of the Muties in the cursed earth. Not sure @Cyclefree would approve of the legal system...

    https://youtu.be/G-eI5oLlIeY
    Underrated movie.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,323
    edited March 2020

    tlg86 said:

    It's two weeks today since I last went to London - and the trains were incredibly quiet that day. So given that quite a lot of people have been behaving differently for more than two weeks, it is possible that we might be seeing an impact already.

    I agree with your observation (that was my last day in London too). The public moved ahead of government to some extent.

    It helps a lot in such a crisis that Britain's elderly are a lot more detached from younger generations than in southern Europe. The smarter oldies were locking down well before official government guidance too.
    We were nearly by a week
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,609
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Who in their right mind these days goes with a broadband provider that caps their data? It is not even that expensive for uncapped . I get mine for 28£ a month no cap no throttling. Even my mobile has unlimited data for 25£ a month although admittedly that is throttled in working hours if I exceed 40gb

    Mine is capped. Sounds like I need to get that changed. On the grid.
    Vodafone broadband is £23 per month for unlimited fibre to the cabinet at whatever your top speed is. Anyone who pays more than that needs a new deal.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,865



    And so what on earth will be the point of the Labour Party, once the Tories steal their policies but implement them with love rather than with contempt for Britain?

    Are you hoping Britain will become a one-party state with Conservative Government ad infinitum or do you accept democracy allows for periodic change?

    Or are you just anti-Labour?

  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Who in their right mind these days goes with a broadband provider that caps their data? It is not even that expensive for uncapped . I get mine for 28£ a month no cap no throttling. Even my mobile has unlimited data for 25£ a month although admittedly that is throttled in working hours if I exceed 40gb

    Mine is capped. Sounds like I need to get that changed. On the grid.
    Vodafone broadband is £23 per month for unlimited fibre to the cabinet at whatever your top speed is. Anyone who pays more than that needs a new deal.
    There are other things than speed. Vodafone is one of the most complained about providers
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250
    edited March 2020

    In other words, Richard Burgon has won the argument?

    He has. But he fights on because you don't rest on your laurels in this game -

    5 key things we need from the Gov't this week in the Coronavirus battle

    ▪️Close non-essential workplaces so people can stay at home
    ▪️Increase testing to high levels seen in other countries
    ▪️Get protective equipment to NHS staff
    ▪️Raise sick pay
    ▪️Suspend rents for all affected

    — Richard Burgon MP (@RichardBurgon) March 30, 2020
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    HYUFD said:

    Further details of the Deltapoll, 66% support the army on the streets to enforce movement restructions, 79% support more police on the streets to enforce restrictions, 59% support jailing those who break movement restrictions and 63% support a 9pm curfew

    http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/polls/coronavirus1

    How depressing.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,973
    stodge said:



    And so what on earth will be the point of the Labour Party, once the Tories steal their policies but implement them with love rather than with contempt for Britain?

    Are you hoping Britain will become a one-party state with Conservative Government ad infinitum or do you accept democracy allows for periodic change?

    Or are you just anti-Labour?

    Hold on, we still have 990 years left.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    edited March 2020
    kyf_100 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Just to correct you.

    Our local private school is open and schooling children from the essential services and is remaining open over Easter.

    Your dislike of public schools is fortunately not shared by most reasonable voters nor the labour party

    I was more thinking about the financial crisis awaiting many private schools post corona. I predict mass closures.

    On your last point, yes I am (sadly) aware that I am in a minority across all groups in recognizing that private schools are one of the most potent engines of inequality that we have. But you know what, I think this might be about to change. I'm not just saying that. I really do.

    Think about it. When we emerge as a nation from this transformational communal experience, are we going to be happy to see a return to the hegemony of elite fee-paying schools that nurses and supermarket workers and binmen and cleaners and firefighters and police officers - and most of those who have busted a gut to keep the show on the road for however long this lasts - cannot afford to send their kids to?

    I sense not. Change is coming and this will be part of it.
    I think you’re making the mistake of assuming they will actually care either way. Most of them will be more interested in ensuring their children have the chance to go to good schools themselves.

    Private schools are, as I have noted many times, already struggling. However, it is unlikely all two thousand odd will close. Maybe four or five hundred - but then a lot of their students will go to other private schools making little overall difference to the numbers.

    The killer for private schools in the medium term is pensions. But that’s also a killer for government finances as well.
    It strikes me that what the private education sector is crying out for is a cheap and cheerful chain store option.

    The way you used to have independent opticians, now you have boots and vision express. Able to exploit economies of scale.

    I reckon the main reason why private schools do better is because the sort of parents who are willing to pay extra to fork out for their children's education are the sort who foster the importance of education in their own children's mindset.

    So essentially you could take all the privately educated kids, put them in the state system (but only with other kids who would have been privately educated) and they would still have better outcomes.

    So in theory you could operate schools on a cheap as chips basis but even being willing to pay a nominal extra fee would ensure grouping among other students with a better chance of higher educational attainment.
    Plus if private schools closed tomorrow you can guarantee all the parents sending their children to them would just move to the catchment area of an outstanding comprehensive or academy or free school or send their children to a selective state school, I doubt any would send their children to an inadequate or requires improvement state school which is where the real problem in state education lies
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    kle4 said:

    I do find it hilarious that placing most of the population in house arrest, closing schools, cancelling elective surgery, panic-buying ventilators, closing restaurants and pubs, closing most shops, bankrupting whole sectors of the economy, stopping people going for walks in national parks, closing airports, and cancelling all sporting events, is somehow to be celebrated as an implementation of Corbyn's 2019 manifesto. I mean, yes, in some ways it is an implementation, but not in any way you'd want to celebrate.

    Eh, everyone knows that willingness to splash cash around during a pandemic is exactly the same as agreeing with mass nationalisation and other measures proposed during normal times at a GE.
    Especially one that might only last 4-6 weeks.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,168

    I'm surprised no one has complained that the new hospitals have been called "Nightingale" and not "Seacole"....or at least some of them.....

    Still, Yoon snowflakes have any mention of Scotland over which to get the vapours.

    https://twitter.com/ianssmart/status/1244370837119152135?s=20

  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    been somewhat busy - can anyone do me a favour and post up the google doc with the UK stats tracker on it please?

    In the meantime, I maintain my previous point - people trying to predict this on a day by day microscale will miss the big shifts occurring in plain sight. Just like in every other 2010s political debate so far, to be fair.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,973

    been somewhat busy - can anyone do me a favour and post up the google doc with the UK stats tracker on it please?

    In the meantime, I maintain my previous point - people trying to predict this on a day by day microscale will miss the big shifts occurring in plain sight. Just like in every other 2010s political debate so far, to be fair.

    This one? - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eTKeK9vRxgw0KhvKxPCaDrfaHnxQP-n9TsLzsEymviY/htmlview?sle=true
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,957
    HYUFD said:

    kyf_100 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Just to correct you.

    Our local private school is open and schooling children from the essential services and is remaining open over Easter.

    Your dislike of public schools is fortunately not shared by most reasonable voters nor the labour party

    I was more thinking about the financial crisis awaiting many private schools post corona. I predict mass closures.

    On your last point, yes I am (sadly) aware that I am in a minority across all groups in recognizing that private schools are one of the most potent engines of inequality that we have. But you know what, I think this might be about to change. I'm not just saying that. I really do.

    Think about it. When we emerge as a nation from this transformational communal experience, are we going to be happy to see a return to the hegemony of elite fee-paying schools that nurses and supermarket workers and binmen and cleaners and firefighters and police officers - and most of those who have busted a gut to keep the show on the road for however long this lasts - cannot afford to send their kids to?

    I sense not. Change is coming and this will be part of it.
    I think you’re making the mistake of assuming they will actually care either way. Most of them will be more interested in ensuring their children have the chance to go to good schools themselves.

    Private schools are, as I have noted many times, already struggling. However, it is unlikely all two thousand odd will close. Maybe four or five hundred - but then a lot of their students will go to other private schools making little overall difference to the numbers.

    The killer for private schools in the medium term is pensions. But that’s also a killer for government finances as well.
    It strikes me that what the private education sector is crying out for is a cheap and cheerful chain store option.

    The way you used to have independent opticians, now you have boots and vision express. Able to exploit economies of scale.

    I reckon the main reason why private schools do better is because the sort of parents who are willing to pay extra to fork out for their children's education are the sort who foster the importance of education in their own children's mindset.

    So essentially you could take all the privately educated kids, put them in the state system (but only with other kids who would have been privately educated) and they would still have better outcomes.

    So in theory you could operate schools on a cheap as chips basis but even being willing to pay a nominal extra fee would ensure grouping among other students with a better chance of higher educational attainment.
    Plus if private schools closed tomorrow you can guarantee all the parents sending their children to them would just move to the catchment area of an outstanding comprehensive or academy or free school or send their children to a selective state school, I doubt any would send their children to an inadequate or requires improvement state school which is where the real problem in state education lies
    Agreed. What you end up with at the minute is selection by who can afford house prices in the right catchment area. The idea of trying to impose a "one size fits all" education has never worked and never will.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811

    I'm surprised no one has complained that the new hospitals have been called "Nightingale" and not "Seacole"....or at least some of them.....

    Still, Yoon snowflakes have any mention of Scotland over which to get the vapours.

    https://twitter.com/ianssmart/status/1244370837119152135?s=20

    Had some fun with that one last night. Touchy people out there.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,168
    TGOHF666 said:

    kle4 said:

    I do find it hilarious that placing most of the population in house arrest, closing schools, cancelling elective surgery, panic-buying ventilators, closing restaurants and pubs, closing most shops, bankrupting whole sectors of the economy, stopping people going for walks in national parks, closing airports, and cancelling all sporting events, is somehow to be celebrated as an implementation of Corbyn's 2019 manifesto. I mean, yes, in some ways it is an implementation, but not in any way you'd want to celebrate.

    Eh, everyone knows that willingness to splash cash around during a pandemic is exactly the same as agreeing with mass nationalisation and other measures proposed during normal times at a GE.
    Especially one that might only last 4-6 weeks.
    Is use of the word 'might' a sign of a dent in your Trumpian optimism?
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,829
    edited March 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Further details of the Deltapoll, 66% support the army on the streets to enforce movement restructions, 79% support more police on the streets to enforce restrictions, 59% support jailing those who break movement restrictions and 63% support a 9pm curfew

    http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/polls/coronavirus1

    41% support shutting down public transport,
    88% support public transport being free for NHS staff,
    therefore at least 29% support both.

  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,451
    kyf_100 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Just to correct you.

    Our local private school is open and schooling children from the essential services and is remaining open over Easter.

    Your dislike of public schools is fortunately not shared by most reasonable voters nor the labour party

    I was more thinking about the financial crisis awaiting many private schools post corona. I predict mass closures.

    On your last point, yes I am (sadly) aware that I am in a minority across all groups in recognizing that private schools are one of the most potent engines of inequality that we have. But you know what, I think this might be about to change. I'm not just saying that. I really do.

    Think about it. When we emerge as a nation from this transformational communal experience, are we going to be happy to see a return to the hegemony of elite fee-paying schools that nurses and supermarket workers and binmen and cleaners and firefighters and police officers - and most of those who have busted a gut to keep the show on the road for however long this lasts - cannot afford to send their kids to?

    I sense not. Change is coming and this will be part of it.
    I think you’re making the mistake of assuming they will actually care either way. Most of them will be more interested in ensuring their children have the chance to go to good schools themselves.

    Private schools are, as I have noted many times, already struggling. However, it is unlikely all two thousand odd will close. Maybe four or five hundred - but then a lot of their students will go to other private schools making little overall difference to the numbers.

    The killer for private schools in the medium term is pensions. But that’s also a killer for government finances as well.
    It strikes me that what the private education sector is crying out for is a cheap and cheerful chain store option.

    The way you used to have independent opticians, now you have boots and vision express. Able to exploit economies of scale.

    I reckon the main reason why private schools do better is because the sort of parents who are willing to pay extra to fork out for their children's education are the sort who foster the importance of education in their own children's mindset.

    So essentially you could take all the privately educated kids, put them in the state system (but only with other kids who would have been privately educated) and they would still have better outcomes.

    So in theory you could operate schools on a cheap as chips basis but even being willing to pay a nominal extra fee would ensure grouping among other students with a better chance of higher educational attainment.
    In fact Chris Woodhead was involved in the setup of some barebones (no olympic swimming pools) private schools. Which pretty much proved the point about the academic performance being the cheap bit to provide.

    Another idea is to stream by subject - so that the kids who want to learn can, and the ones who want to punch the teachers can get on with that.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,695
    Barnesian said:

    FPT @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Question for PB lawyers:

    I am rewriting my will (never a better time...)
    Is it better to leave it all to Mrs Foxy, or to Fox jr, with Mrs Foxy getting control until her demise, from the point of view of inheritance tax?

    It depends on how much and the taxes you are worried about (Inheritance Tax is obvious but, if assets are being sold in probate, Capital Gains Tax is highly relevant).

    Broadly, if you transfer all assets to your wife, you're not using your nil rate band and she can use your unused allowance as well as her own when she dies (and presumably the arrangement is likely to be reciprocal if she passes first). So you may well not need to bother with a trust arrangement if you've a fairly simple estate. However, it's worth paying for professional advice if your estate is very large (well over the threshold) or complex (substantial shareholdings, property assets etc).

    Also consider reducing liability with some gifts while you're alive (there's a £3k annual allowance, and above that it's only included in your estate if you die within seven years).

    Also consider remembering various charities in the will - the gifts are exempt, plus if 10%+ of the net estate is left to charity, this reduces the rate on the remainder from 40% to 36%.
    Thanks.

    My estate is fairly simple. House and field, and shares in my own company.

    I supported Fox jr through Uni, more than £3,000 per year. Presumably, unless I live seven years that counts as part of the estate for IHT purposes?
    If you can show you paid the £3000 out of excess income it won't come into your estate even if you die within the seven years. Keep a record. I use the IHT record 403 sections 20-22 which your executor would have to fill in.
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/750238/IHT403_10_18.pdf
    Thanks!
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    stodge said:



    And so what on earth will be the point of the Labour Party, once the Tories steal their policies but implement them with love rather than with contempt for Britain?

    Are you hoping Britain will become a one-party state with Conservative Government ad infinitum or do you accept democracy allows for periodic change?

    Or are you just anti-Labour?

    Once the Labour Party elected Corbyn and mutated into the abomination they did under his leadership, I think a period of penitence will be required on their part before they can once again be trusted with the government of Britain.

    But I'm not unreasonable - I think a span of 50 years would be quite sufficient :smile:
  • Options
    BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    RobD said:

    been somewhat busy - can anyone do me a favour and post up the google doc with the UK stats tracker on it please?

    In the meantime, I maintain my previous point - people trying to predict this on a day by day microscale will miss the big shifts occurring in plain sight. Just like in every other 2010s political debate so far, to be fair.

    This one? - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eTKeK9vRxgw0KhvKxPCaDrfaHnxQP-n9TsLzsEymviY/htmlview?sle=true
    Yes, much appreciated.

    A week ago, I was told we had to make safe a bunch of labs. On the Tuesday, they shut down around us. A week of making sure a research department was going to be worth getting back to ensued.

    Tired now.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760

    I'm surprised no one has complained that the new hospitals have been called "Nightingale" and not "Seacole"....or at least some of them.....

    Still, Yoon snowflakes have any mention of Scotland over which to get the vapours.

    https://twitter.com/ianssmart/status/1244370837119152135?s=20

    Nats don’t have a monopoly if nutters! Who knew?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215
    A small observation, apropos of no-one’s avatar at all.

    Photos taken from below of a person’s face are never flattering.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    kyf_100 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Just to correct you.

    Our local private school is open and schooling children from the essential services and is remaining open over Easter.

    Your dislike of public schools is fortunately not shared by most reasonable voters nor the labour party

    I was more thinking about the financial crisis awaiting many private schools post corona. I predict mass closures.

    On your last point, yes I am (sadly) aware that I am in a minority across all groups in recognizing that private schools are one of the most potent engines of inequality that we have. But you know what, I think this might be about to change. I'm not just saying that. I really do.

    Think about it. When we emerge as a nation from this transformational communal experience, are we going to be happy to see a return to the hegemony of elite fee-paying schools that nurses and supermarket workers and binmen and cleaners and firefighters and police officers - and most of those who have busted a gut to keep the show on the road for however long this lasts - cannot afford to send their kids to?

    I sense not. Change is coming and this will be part of it.
    I think you’re making the mistake of assuming they will actually care either way. Most of them will be more interested in ensuring their children have the chance to go to good schools themselves.

    Private schools are, as I have noted many times, already struggling. However, it is unlikely all two thousand odd will close. Maybe four or five hundred - but then a lot of their students will go to other private schools making little overall difference to the numbers.

    The killer for private schools in the medium term is pensions. But that’s also a killer for government finances as well.
    It strikes me that what the private education sector is crying out for is a cheap and cheerful chain store option.

    The way you used to have independent opticians, now you have boots and vision express. Able to exploit economies of scale.

    I reckon the main reason why private schools do better is because the sort of parents who are willing to pay extra to fork out for their children's education are the sort who foster the importance of education in their own children's mindset.

    So essentially you could take all the privately educated kids, put them in the state system (but only with other kids who would have been privately educated) and they would still have better outcomes.

    So in theory you could operate schools on a cheap as chips basis but even being willing to pay a nominal extra fee would ensure grouping among other students with a better chance of higher educational attainment.
    Plus if private schools closed tomorrow you can guarantee all the parents sending their children to them would just move to the catchment area of an outstanding comprehensive or academy or free school or send their children to a selective state school, I doubt any would send their children to an inadequate or requires improvement state school which is where the real problem in state education lies
    Plus the saving in school fees pays for a whole heap of private tuition. Kinabalu needs to consider the possibility that private schools are correlated with rather than causative of inequality.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    BBC 6 o’clock news using “viral load” as synonym for “virus exposure”....
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,451
    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kyf_100 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Just to correct you.

    Our local private school is open and schooling children from the essential services and is remaining open over Easter.

    Your dislike of public schools is fortunately not shared by most reasonable voters nor the labour party

    I was more thinking about the financial crisis awaiting many private schools post corona. I predict mass closures.

    On your last point, yes I am (sadly) aware that I am in a minority across all groups in recognizing that private schools are one of the most potent engines of inequality that we have. But you know what, I think this might be about to change. I'm not just saying that. I really do.

    Think about it. When we emerge as a nation from this transformational communal experience, are we going to be happy to see a return to the hegemony of elite fee-paying schools that nurses and supermarket workers and binmen and cleaners and firefighters and police officers - and most of those who have busted a gut to keep the show on the road for however long this lasts - cannot afford to send their kids to?

    I sense not. Change is coming and this will be part of it.
    I think you’re making the mistake of assuming they will actually care either way. Most of them will be more interested in ensuring their children have the chance to go to good schools themselves.

    Private schools are, as I have noted many times, already struggling. However, it is unlikely all two thousand odd will close. Maybe four or five hundred - but then a lot of their students will go to other private schools making little overall difference to the numbers.

    The killer for private schools in the medium term is pensions. But that’s also a killer for government finances as well.
    It strikes me that what the private education sector is crying out for is a cheap and cheerful chain store option.

    The way you used to have independent opticians, now you have boots and vision express. Able to exploit economies of scale.

    I reckon the main reason why private schools do better is because the sort of parents who are willing to pay extra to fork out for their children's education are the sort who foster the importance of education in their own children's mindset.

    So essentially you could take all the privately educated kids, put them in the state system (but only with other kids who would have been privately educated) and they would still have better outcomes.

    So in theory you could operate schools on a cheap as chips basis but even being willing to pay a nominal extra fee would ensure grouping among other students with a better chance of higher educational attainment.
    Plus if private schools closed tomorrow you can guarantee all the parents sending their children to them would just move to the catchment area of an outstanding comprehensive or academy or free school or send their children to a selective state school, I doubt any would send their children to an inadequate or requires improvement state school which is where the real problem in state education lies
    Agreed. What you end up with at the minute is selection by who can afford house prices in the right catchment area. The idea of trying to impose a "one size fits all" education has never worked and never will.
    Anyone can attend Hampstead School - it's free. You just have to live in a home in the catchment area. Or the servants quarters of a house in the catchment area.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    Cyclefree said:

    A small observation, apropos of no-one’s avatar at all.

    Photos taken from below of a person’s face are never flattering.

    I was on a “House Party” drinks party at the weekend and only got the conversation to move on from double chins when I got my interlocutor to raise the phone higher!
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,323
    edited March 2020
    TGOHF666 said:

    kle4 said:

    I do find it hilarious that placing most of the population in house arrest, closing schools, cancelling elective surgery, panic-buying ventilators, closing restaurants and pubs, closing most shops, bankrupting whole sectors of the economy, stopping people going for walks in national parks, closing airports, and cancelling all sporting events, is somehow to be celebrated as an implementation of Corbyn's 2019 manifesto. I mean, yes, in some ways it is an implementation, but not in any way you'd want to celebrate.

    Eh, everyone knows that willingness to splash cash around during a pandemic is exactly the same as agreeing with mass nationalisation and other measures proposed during normal times at a GE.
    Especially one that might only last 4-6 weeks.
    This pandemic is going to last a lot longer than 4 to 6 weeks with Jenny Harries suggesting 6 months and maybe beyond

    The problem as I see it is that the world is only at the foothills when consideration is given to the US, Russia, India, South Africa and Indonesia who look as if everyone's nightmare is going to be revealed over summer 2020

    Furthermore, the relaxation of our present restrictions will be painfully slow, as each small relaxation is followed by weeks of monitoring before further relaxation

    I do think that Jenny Harries revelation yesterday was a Cobra decision to move the dial forwards for the public to see a much longer period of restrictions is very likely, rather than the many who seem to think this will be over soon
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    kinabalu said:

    No surprise here. I do sense Johnson is popular. Probably even more so than this poll indicates since the fieldwork was done before he got sick and seeing him like that will have made him more appealing - especially to women.

    But the politics of the virus is working out terribly for the Tories. Things they traditionally support are collapsing. Much that they oppose is coming to pass.

    Private schools closed. NHS spending to rocket. The biggest expansion of the State, both economically and socially, in peacetime history.

    And now here comes free broadband -

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52091359

    The Labour 2019 manifesto is rapidly attaining the status of the King James bible.

    And so what on earth will be the point of the Labour Party, once the Tories steal their policies but implement them with love rather than with contempt for Britain?
    "All the Labour policies I said I hated are good when the Tories do them actually"
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    BBC 6 o’clock news using “viral load” as synonym for “virus exposure”....

    Chill, you obviously know what they mean. "Positive feedback" means saying nice stuff about things now, rather than what a supercharger does. Live with it.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Apparently they've now moved "permanently" to California. I'd be very intrigued to know exactly what visa status Harry is in seeing as State and USCIS have suspended in-person interviews. Somehow I doubt ICE will be feeling Harry's collar anytime soon though.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,973
    rpjs said:

    Apparently they've now moved "permanently" to California. I'd be very intrigued to know exactly what visa status Harry is in seeing as State and USCIS have suspended in-person interviews. Somehow I doubt ICE will be feeling Harry's collar anytime soon though.
    Isn't he married to an American?
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,360
    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Who in their right mind these days goes with a broadband provider that caps their data? It is not even that expensive for uncapped . I get mine for 28£ a month no cap no throttling. Even my mobile has unlimited data for 25£ a month although admittedly that is throttled in working hours if I exceed 40gb

    Mine is capped. Sounds like I need to get that changed. On the grid.
    Vodafone broadband is £23 per month for unlimited fibre to the cabinet at whatever your top speed is. Anyone who pays more than that needs a new deal.
    It is outrageous that you pay pretty much the same if you get 50mbs to 1 mbs less than 5 mbs ought to be a fixed price of 5 quid a month no more..
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250
    edited March 2020
    @ydoethur

    Noted that comment of yours - "PENSIONS will be what eventually kills off private schools". Do not understand and excited to find out more.

    @Pagan2

    The change would need to be gradual so that if it isn't working we stop before too much damage is done. But it WOULD work. And a ditto question for you. If you believed that abolishing private schools would reduce inequality without reducing general educational standards would you support doing it?
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,865


    "All the Labour policies I said I hated are good when the Tories do them actually"

    Oddly enough, socialist policies always work better when implemented by Conservatives and conservative policies are always better when implemented by socialists.

    Both are equally adept at implementing liberal policies I'm happy to say.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    kinabalu said:

    @ydoethur

    Noted that comment of yours - "PENSIONS will be what eventually kills off private schools". Do not understand and excited (!) to find out more.

    @Pagan2

    The change would need to be gradual so that if it isn't working we stop before too much damage is done. But it WOULD work. And a ditto question for you. If you believed that abolishing private schools would reduce inequality without reducing general educational standards would you support doing it?

    No because I don't regard equality as a goal, I regard lifting the lowest as a goal and don't care how high the highest are.

    The equality you seek leads to Harrison Bergeron
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250

    And so what on earth will be the point of the Labour Party, once the Tories steal their policies but implement them with love rather than with contempt for Britain?

    With love? A lovely notion - but I would more say reluctantly and in a panic.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,865
    TGOHF666 said:


    Especially one that might only last 4-6 weeks.

    Is it your view then that all restrictions should be lifted on April 15th with the main objective being to get the country back to work and the economy to normal operation?

    Do you think we should have adopted the same policy as Sweden even if that meant more infections and more deaths?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,695
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,302
    edited March 2020
    kinabalu said:

    @ydoethur

    Noted that comment of yours - "PENSIONS will be what eventually kills off private schools". Do not understand and excited to find out more.

    @Pagan2

    The change would need to be gradual so that if it isn't working we stop before too much damage is done. But it WOULD work. And a ditto question for you. If you believed that abolishing private schools would reduce inequality without reducing general educational standards would you support doing it?

    Employer pension contributions for the Teachers’ Pension Scheme increased 40% last September.

    https://www.aoc.co.uk/news/teacher-pension-contributions-increases-in-2019-12-april-update

    Average cost to a private school was in six figures.

    And that is probably only the start. Avalanche of union stuff about how it’s likely to rise again in the next few years.

    But before you celebrate too much - it applies to state schools as well, and there is no guarantee the one-off grant Phillip Hammond made to absorb it for this year will be repeated for subsequent years.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    stodge said:



    And so what on earth will be the point of the Labour Party, once the Tories steal their policies but implement them with love rather than with contempt for Britain?

    Are you hoping Britain will become a one-party state with Conservative Government ad infinitum or do you accept democracy allows for periodic change?

    Or are you just anti-Labour?

    Even in one Party state as happens in many local councils there evolves an opposition to the executive but they still wear the team rosette. What frightens me are the posters who seem keen to extinguish all none Tory opposition. It’s shortsighted and will lead to worse outcomes.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,609
    New York looks like a complete disaster zone.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250
    Monkeys said:

    Maybe he'll just spend 350 million on the NHS.

    He will. And no doubt more. But I'm more talking about the impact of this remarkable black swan event on our values. It bodes well for Labour, I think.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    TGOHF666 said:

    kle4 said:

    I do find it hilarious that placing most of the population in house arrest, closing schools, cancelling elective surgery, panic-buying ventilators, closing restaurants and pubs, closing most shops, bankrupting whole sectors of the economy, stopping people going for walks in national parks, closing airports, and cancelling all sporting events, is somehow to be celebrated as an implementation of Corbyn's 2019 manifesto. I mean, yes, in some ways it is an implementation, but not in any way you'd want to celebrate.

    Eh, everyone knows that willingness to splash cash around during a pandemic is exactly the same as agreeing with mass nationalisation and other measures proposed during normal times at a GE.
    Especially one that might only last 4-6 weeks.
    This pandemic is going to last a lot longer than 4 to 6 weeks with Jenny Harries suggesting 6 months and maybe beyond

    The problem as I see it is that the world is only at the foothills when consideration is given to the US, Russia, India, South Africa and Indonesia who look as if everyone's nightmare is going to be revealed over summer 2020

    Furthermore, the relaxation of our present restrictions will be painfully slow, as each small relaxation is followed by weeks of monitoring before further relaxation

    I do think that Jenny Harries revelation yesterday was a Cobra decision to move the dial forwards for the public to see a much longer period of restrictions is very likely, rather than the many who seem to think this will be over soon
    As long as there is no travel between the UK and the US, Russia, India, South Africa and Indonesia, it shouldn't stop the UK going out for their sponsored walks (2m apart mind) to "Buy an Incubator for Indonesia" - and generally returning to something different that isn't lock-down.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,779
    isam said:
    How many different strains of flu and cold are there? It is clear there was a (relatively) nasty strain widepread in December/January but that doesnt make it likely to be a forerunner of covid19. The experts say they are different illnesses, not that people didnt get ill in December/January.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,302
    MaxPB said:

    New York looks like a complete disaster zone.

    It does.

    And it’s got some problem or other involving a virus as well...
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,865
    nichomar said:

    stodge said:



    And so what on earth will be the point of the Labour Party, once the Tories steal their policies but implement them with love rather than with contempt for Britain?

    Are you hoping Britain will become a one-party state with Conservative Government ad infinitum or do you accept democracy allows for periodic change?

    Or are you just anti-Labour?

    Even in one Party state as happens in many local councils there evolves an opposition to the executive but they still wear the team rosette. What frightens me are the posters who seem keen to extinguish all none Tory opposition. It’s shortsighted and will lead to worse outcomes.
    After 1992, some thought the Conservatives would remain in power in perpetuity and others thought 2005 meant the end of the Conservative Party.

    One day the Tories will lose and lose big - when that will be I don't know but I'm certain it will happen.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,695

    isam said:
    How many different strains of flu and cold are there? It is clear there was a (relatively) nasty strain widepread in December/January but that doesnt make it likely to be a forerunner of covid19. The experts say they are different illnesses, not that people didnt get ill in December/January.
    If it was COVID19 in Dec/Jan then we would have seen it in a collapse of ICU and ER a couple of months ago. It must have been different, like what I have at the moment.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,302
    edited March 2020
    HYUFD said:
    Who would you trust more to handle coronavirus?

    1) My tom cat, 100%

    2) Any one of Biden, Sanders or Trump 0%.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I hate the way the American pollsters put the (+6) as the gap between options in the poll rather than the change like ours do.

    Are Americans so innumerate they can't figure out that 46 is 6 more than 40? Oh ...
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250
    HYUFD said:

    There will always be demand for outstanding private schools and not only do senior police officers and GPs and surgeons have children at private schools but so even do nurses if their children get a scholarship

    I don't doubt that there will always be some level of demand for them. Buying educational privilege is an attractive proposition.

    Scholarships? Sure - but that's a fig leaf.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    isam said:
    How many different strains of flu and cold are there? It is clear there was a (relatively) nasty strain widepread in December/January but that doesnt make it likely to be a forerunner of covid19. The experts say they are different illnesses, not that people didnt get ill in December/January.
    What? Colds are not flu like, and the tests say, Not flu. That is the point of the tweet.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,865
    HYUFD said:
    I trust you and Boris aren't getting any ideas.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    There will always be demand for outstanding private schools and not only do senior police officers and GPs and surgeons have children at private schools but so even do nurses if their children get a scholarship

    I don't doubt that there will always be some level of demand for them. Buying educational privilege is an attractive proposition.

    Scholarships? Sure - but that's a fig leaf.
    How are you going to stop these people spending money on private tutors etc? Make it illegal and jail them.

    The biggest thing you could do to help underachieving kids to be frank is to remove them from their families and set up a decent foster care system.

    Parents that believe in education and push it and a sane and stable homelife would do much more to raise achievement than banning private schools.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    RobD said:

    rpjs said:

    Apparently they've now moved "permanently" to California. I'd be very intrigued to know exactly what visa status Harry is in seeing as State and USCIS have suspended in-person interviews. Somehow I doubt ICE will be feeling Harry's collar anytime soon though.
    Isn't he married to an American?
    Yes, as am I, but it took about six months and a lot of paperwork and an in=person interview at the US embassy to get my immigrant visa. Given that Harry & Meghan have been gallivanting around between the UK, Canada and the US, colour me a wee bit suspicious that he has a Green Card waiting to be mailed to him.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,660
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:
    Who would you trust more to handle coronavirus?

    1) My tom cat, 100%

    2) Any one of Biden, Sanders or Trump 0%.
    Cats do get coronaviruses...

    Though few are over the age of 70.
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    I hate the way the American pollsters put the (+6) as the gap between options in the poll rather than the change like ours do.

    Are Americans so innumerate they can't figure out that 46 is 6 more than 40? Oh ...

    Arsenal used to have a countdown clock which did this. Same principle.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:
    I trust you and Boris aren't getting any ideas.
    Asking shit questions at news briefings - 2 years?
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,865
    Foxy said:



    If it was COVID19 in Dec/Jan then we would have seen it in a collapse of ICU and ER a couple of months ago. It must have been different, like what I have at the moment.

    I am convinced there's been a lot more going on this winter with different influenza strains out there and COVID-19 has just come along as well. Many people have reported different forms of illness (I can add myself to that list) in December and January and while mine responded to antibiotics and time too much has been reported for me not to have some suspicions.

    I'd also add it was a very mild winter across most of the northern hemisphere and I wonder if that contributed to the persistence of infection.

  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250
    edited March 2020

    Of course we will be happy to go back. A millennium of national DNA doesn't change in response to a single crisis. This is pure wishful thinking on your part.

    This is a War. The last time we had one the nation that emerged on the other side was quite different to the one going in. You think business as usual for private schools. I think they will be out of kilter with the post corona New Deal society. They will seem a bit 'off' and the habit will wither. Bit like smoking. We will see who is right.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,973
    rpjs said:

    RobD said:

    rpjs said:

    Apparently they've now moved "permanently" to California. I'd be very intrigued to know exactly what visa status Harry is in seeing as State and USCIS have suspended in-person interviews. Somehow I doubt ICE will be feeling Harry's collar anytime soon though.
    Isn't he married to an American?
    Yes, as am I, but it took about six months and a lot of paperwork and an in=person interview at the US embassy to get my immigrant visa. Given that Harry & Meghan have been gallivanting around between the UK, Canada and the US, colour me a wee bit suspicious that he has a Green Card waiting to be mailed to him.
    I thought you could enter as a tourist and do a change of status while you are inside the US? Maybe that's only from certain classes of non-immigrant visa.
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    rpjs said:

    RobD said:

    rpjs said:

    Apparently they've now moved "permanently" to California. I'd be very intrigued to know exactly what visa status Harry is in seeing as State and USCIS have suspended in-person interviews. Somehow I doubt ICE will be feeling Harry's collar anytime soon though.
    Isn't he married to an American?
    Yes, as am I, but it took about six months and a lot of paperwork and an in=person interview at the US embassy to get my immigrant visa. Given that Harry & Meghan have been gallivanting around between the UK, Canada and the US, colour me a wee bit suspicious that he has a Green Card waiting to be mailed to him.
    Who gives a flying fuck so long as I'm not contributing to their costs.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    There will always be demand for outstanding private schools and not only do senior police officers and GPs and surgeons have children at private schools but so even do nurses if their children get a scholarship

    I don't doubt that there will always be some level of demand for them. Buying educational privilege is an attractive proposition.

    Scholarships? Sure - but that's a fig leaf.
    In every country in the entire world that I have ever heard of the children of the nomenklatura do better than the children of the rank and file. No other country in the world has a private education system like that of the UK. This makes me think that you are attacking a (comparatively harmless) symptom when you think you are attacking the disease.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    A small observation, apropos of no-one’s avatar at all.

    Photos taken from below of a person’s face are never flattering.

    I am the sow’s ear out of which no silk purse can be made.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    edited March 2020
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:
    I trust you and Boris aren't getting any ideas.
    You mean Lord Protector Dominic Raab?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,302
    edited March 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Of course we will be happy to go back. A millennium of national DNA doesn't change in response to a single crisis. This is pure wishful thinking on your part.

    This is a War. The last time we had one the nation that emerged on the other side was quite different to the one going in. You think business as usual for private schools. I think they will be out of kilter with the post corona New Deal society. They will seem a bit 'off' and the habit will wither. Bit like smoking. We will see who is right.
    The Second World War did not get rid of private schools, private healthcare, private industry, private pensions or private wealth, not even private rented housing. Labour couldn’t even nationalise the sugar industry or the bus network. When it tried to go further than it had managed in nationalisation and taxation, it caused a crisis, and ultimately lost 78 seats at the following election.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,660
    Cyclefree said:

    A small observation, apropos of no-one’s avatar at all.

    Photos taken from below of a person’s face are never flattering.

    Oh, I don’t know.
    https://www.boredpanda.com/25-photos-of-cats-taken-from-underneath-andrius-burba/
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    There will always be demand for outstanding private schools and not only do senior police officers and GPs and surgeons have children at private schools but so even do nurses if their children get a scholarship

    I don't doubt that there will always be some level of demand for them. Buying educational privilege is an attractive proposition.

    Scholarships? Sure - but that's a fig leaf.
    In every country in the entire world that I have ever heard of the children of the nomenklatura do better than the children of the rank and file. No other country in the world has a private education system like that of the UK. This makes me think that you are attacking a (comparatively harmless) symptom when you think you are attacking the disease.
    The US and most English speaking nations have a private school system like we do, as does much of Latin America
  • Options
    alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    Cyclefree said:

    A small observation, apropos of no-one’s avatar at all.

    Photos taken from below of a person’s face are never flattering.

    I am the sow’s ear out of which no silk purse can be made.
    Short arms?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    There will always be demand for outstanding private schools and not only do senior police officers and GPs and surgeons have children at private schools but so even do nurses if their children get a scholarship

    I don't doubt that there will always be some level of demand for them. Buying educational privilege is an attractive proposition.

    Scholarships? Sure - but that's a fig leaf.
    In every country in the entire world that I have ever heard of the children of the nomenklatura do better than the children of the rank and file. No other country in the world has a private education system like that of the UK. This makes me think that you are attacking a (comparatively harmless) symptom when you think you are attacking the disease.
    The US and most English speaking nations have a private school system like we do, as does much of Latin America
    I said "a private education system like the UK," not "a private education system, like the UK."
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,495

    kyf_100 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Just to correct you.

    Our local private school is open and schooling children from the essential services and is remaining open over Easter.

    Your dislike of public schools is fortunately not shared by most reasonable voters nor the labour party

    I was more thinking about the financial crisis awaiting many private schools post corona. I predict mass closures.

    On your last point, yes I am (sadly) aware that I am in a minority across all groups in recognizing that private schools are one of the most potent engines of inequality that we have. But you know what, I think this might be about to change. I'm not just saying that. I really do.

    Think about it. When we emerge as a nation from this transformational communal experience, are we going to be happy to see a return to the hegemony of elite fee-paying schools that nurses and supermarket workers and binmen and cleaners and firefighters and police officers - and most of those who have busted a gut to keep the show on the road for however long this lasts - cannot afford to send their kids to?

    I sense not. Change is coming and this will be part of it.
    I think you’re making the mistake of assuming they will actually care either way. Most of them will be more interested in ensuring their children have the chance to go to good schools themselves.

    Private schools are, as I have noted many times, already struggling. However, it is unlikely all two thousand odd will close. Maybe four or five hundred - but then a lot of their students will go to other private schools making little overall difference to the numbers.

    The killer for private schools in the medium term is pensions. But that’s also a killer for government finances as well.
    It strikes me that what the private education sector is crying out for is a cheap and cheerful chain store option.

    The way you used to have independent opticians, now you have boots and vision express. Able to exploit economies of scale.

    I reckon the main reason why private schools do better is because the sort of parents who are willing to pay extra to fork out for their children's education are the sort who foster the importance of education in their own children's mindset.

    So essentially you could take all the privately educated kids, put them in the state system (but only with other kids who would have been privately educated) and they would still have better outcomes.

    So in theory you could operate schools on a cheap as chips basis but even being willing to pay a nominal extra fee would ensure grouping among other students with a better chance of higher educational attainment.
    In fact Chris Woodhead was involved in the setup of some barebones (no olympic swimming pools) private schools. Which pretty much proved the point about the academic performance being the cheap bit to provide.

    Another idea is to stream by subject - so that the kids who want to learn can, and the ones who want to punch the teachers can get on with that.
    The other attempt is happening in Durham; The "Independent Grammar School" is trying to run a primary education for about £3000 / year. What probably stuffs them is that, even if your local primary is pretty bad, itsi probably not £ 3000 / year worse. Actually, unless your local school really is a hellhole, the best plan is to send your children to the local school. Just make sure that the time they saw not travelling so far doing extra homework. The effect of that is almost certainly bigger than the academic gains caused by the school, rather than by the school's choice of pupils.
  • Options
    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Of course we will be happy to go back. A millennium of national DNA doesn't change in response to a single crisis. This is pure wishful thinking on your part.

    This is a War. The last time we had one the nation that emerged on the other side was quite different to the one going in. You think business as usual for private schools. I think they will be out of kilter with the post corona New Deal society. They will seem a bit 'off' and the habit will wither. Bit like smoking. We will see who is right.
    The Second World War did not get rid of private schools, private healthcare, private industry, private pensions or private wealth, not even private rented housing. Labour couldn’t even nationalise the sugar industry or the bus network. When it tried to go further than it had managed in nationalisation and taxation, it caused a crisis, and ultimately lost 78 seats at the following election.
    The Conservative and Labour 1945 manifestos were practically the same too. I don't think the comparison stands.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250

    I do find it hilarious that placing most of the population in house arrest, closing schools, cancelling elective surgery, panic-buying ventilators, closing restaurants and pubs, closing most shops, bankrupting whole sectors of the economy, stopping people going for walks in national parks, closing airports, and cancelling all sporting events, is somehow to be celebrated as an implementation of Corbyn's 2019 manifesto. I mean, yes, in some ways it is an implementation, but not in any way you'd want to celebrate.

    Or perhaps this is what happens when you implement policies that you don't believe in.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,898
    From the Guardian
    "The UK’s death toll from Covid-19 has risen to 1,408. The figures published by the Department of Health and Social Care relate to those that had died in hospitals as of 5pm on Sunday. From tomorrow, the ONS will begin producing weekly statistics which take in deaths in the community."

    So the official number of deaths in the UK is only for people who die in hospital!
    Wow.
    Does anyone know what other countries are doing?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,302
    Monkeys said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Of course we will be happy to go back. A millennium of national DNA doesn't change in response to a single crisis. This is pure wishful thinking on your part.

    This is a War. The last time we had one the nation that emerged on the other side was quite different to the one going in. You think business as usual for private schools. I think they will be out of kilter with the post corona New Deal society. They will seem a bit 'off' and the habit will wither. Bit like smoking. We will see who is right.
    The Second World War did not get rid of private schools, private healthcare, private industry, private pensions or private wealth, not even private rented housing. Labour couldn’t even nationalise the sugar industry or the bus network. When it tried to go further than it had managed in nationalisation and taxation, it caused a crisis, and ultimately lost 78 seats at the following election.
    The Conservative and Labour 1945 manifestos were practically the same too. I don't think the comparison stands.
    There were very significant differences, starting with the scale and scope of nationalisation.

    If you mean about Beveridge, the yes, there were some similarities, but even there big differences remained, particularly over timing and payment.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    eristdoof said:

    From the Guardian
    "The UK’s death toll from Covid-19 has risen to 1,408. The figures published by the Department of Health and Social Care relate to those that had died in hospitals as of 5pm on Sunday. From tomorrow, the ONS will begin producing weekly statistics which take in deaths in the community."

    So the official number of deaths in the UK is only for people who die in hospital!
    Wow.
    Does anyone know what other countries are doing?

    Similar I believe
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A small observation, apropos of no-one’s avatar at all.

    Photos taken from below of a person’s face are never flattering.

    Oh, I don’t know.
    https://www.boredpanda.com/25-photos-of-cats-taken-from-underneath-andrius-burba/
    People not cats.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,695
    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1244685413773643781?s=19

    If that bedspace is typical, then they have ventilators and oxygen. Impressive.
  • Options
    ABZABZ Posts: 441
    eristdoof said:

    From the Guardian
    "The UK’s death toll from Covid-19 has risen to 1,408. The figures published by the Department of Health and Social Care relate to those that had died in hospitals as of 5pm on Sunday. From tomorrow, the ONS will begin producing weekly statistics which take in deaths in the community."

    So the official number of deaths in the UK is only for people who die in hospital!
    Wow.
    Does anyone know what other countries are doing?

    Pretty much the same I think - certainly France is doing this and I think @kamski earlier said this was also what was going on in Germany.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,250

    Our private school istaking pupils from local schools and staying open until july

    You contempt for private schools is not justified

    Contempt? Oh gosh, never. My amazing sister - down with the virus right now - is the Head of one of the country's most prestigious private schools.

    This is nothing personal. It's strictly business.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    kyf_100 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Just to correct you.

    Our local private school is open and schooling children from the essential services and is remaining open over Easter.

    Your dislike of public schools is fortunately not shared by most reasonable voters nor the labour party

    I was more thinking about the financial crisis awaiting many private schools post corona. I predict mass closures.

    On your last point, yes I am (sadly) aware that I am in a minority across all groups in recognizing that private schools are one of the most potent engines of inequality that we have. But you know what, I think this might be about to change. I'm not just saying that. I really do.

    Think about it. When we emerge as a nation from this transformational communal experience, are we going to be happy to see a return to the hegemony of elite fee-paying schools that nurses and supermarket workers and binmen and cleaners and firefighters and police officers - and most of those who have busted a gut to keep the show on the road for however long this lasts - cannot afford to send their kids to?

    I sense not. Change is coming and this will be part of it.
    I think you’re making the mistake of assuming they will actually care either way. Most of them will be more interested in ensuring their children have the chance to go to good schools themselves.

    Private schools are, as I have noted many times, already struggling. However, it is unlikely all two thousand odd will close. Maybe four or five hundred - but then a lot of their students will go to other private schools making little overall difference to the numbers.

    The killer for private schools in the medium term is pensions. But that’s also a killer for government finances as well.
    It strikes me that what the private education sector is crying out for is a cheap and cheerful chain store option.

    The way you used to have independent opticians, now you have boots and vision express. Able to exploit economies of scale.

    I reckon the main reason why private schools do better is because the sort of parents who are willing to pay extra to fork out for their children's education are the sort who foster the importance of education in their own children's mindset.

    So essentially you could take all the privately educated kids, put them in the state system (but only with other kids who would have been privately educated) and they would still have better outcomes.

    So in theory you could operate schools on a cheap as chips basis but even being willing to pay a nominal extra fee would ensure grouping among other students with a better chance of higher educational attainment.
    In fact Chris Woodhead was involved in the setup of some barebones (no olympic swimming pools) private schools. Which pretty much proved the point about the academic performance being the cheap bit to provide.

    Another idea is to stream by subject - so that the kids who want to learn can, and the ones who want to punch the teachers can get on with that.
    The other attempt is happening in Durham; The "Independent Grammar School" is trying to run a primary education for about £3000 / year. What probably stuffs them is that, even if your local primary is pretty bad, itsi probably not £ 3000 / year worse. Actually, unless your local school really is a hellhole, the best plan is to send your children to the local school. Just make sure that the time they saw not travelling so far doing extra homework. The effect of that is almost certainly bigger than the academic gains caused by the school, rather than by the school's choice of pupils.
    Fees are £2,704 a year.

    The school is saving money in many ways including renting out the premises at weekends. and having top teachers teach large class.

    https://www.igsdurham.com/why-igs

    We are yet to see how successful it is, but at the moment its had no trouble finding parents willing to pay.

    It has had a campaign of 'harassment' from the teachers union, who I don't think would of cared if they where not scared that it would be successful.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873
    I see Trump has moved Easter to end of April.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    kinabalu said:

    Our private school istaking pupils from local schools and staying open until july

    You contempt for private schools is not justified

    Contempt? Oh gosh, never. My amazing sister - down with the virus right now - is the Head of one of the country's most prestigious private schools.

    This is nothing personal. It's strictly business.
    Another honest question

    Why do all your proposals aim at reducing the top but there are no suggestions to lift the bottom, the ones you purport to care about?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,302
    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1244685413773643781?s=19

    If that bedspace is typical, then they have ventilators and oxygen. Impressive.

    Top that Hubei *lightweights*.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,898


    Another idea is to stream by subject - so that the kids who want to learn can, and the ones who want to punch the teachers can get on with that.

    My comp did that back in the early 80s. It's called setting and should, as far as I'm concerned, be done in every secondary school.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,845
    eristdoof said:


    Another idea is to stream by subject - so that the kids who want to learn can, and the ones who want to punch the teachers can get on with that.

    My comp did that back in the early 80s. It's called setting and should, as far as I'm concerned, be done in every secondary school.
    My comprehensive in the late 70's did setting. I remain unconvinced of its efficacy. My experience was being in a high set was like pinning a yellow star on your jacket at break times
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,302
    edited March 2020


    Another idea is to stream by subject - so that the kids...who want to punch the teachers can get on with that.

    Oi! Bad enough you welched on that bet this morning. Do you mind not suggesting that my pupils should be allowed to assault me?
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    Of course we will be happy to go back. A millennium of national DNA doesn't change in response to a single crisis. This is pure wishful thinking on your part.

    This is a War. The last time we had one the nation that emerged on the other side was quite different to the one going in. You think business as usual for private schools. I think they will be out of kilter with the post corona New Deal society. They will seem a bit 'off' and the habit will wither. Bit like smoking. We will see who is right.
    In the last war, my old school had many of its historic buildings gutted by the Luftwaffe's incendiaries. When restoration work was eventually completed, the school's main hall was re-opened by Elizabeth II with the inscription of a new elegiac couplet on the far wall:

    SCORPIUS EGREGIAM MOLEM PERCUSSIT ELISSAE
    RURSUS ELISSA AEDES DEDICAT EGREGIAS

    MCMLX

    'A missile struck the excellent edifice of Elizabeth;
    Once again does an Elizabeth dedicate an edifice of excellence'

    1960

    The first letter of each Latin word spells out an acronym - SEMPER EADEM ('Always The Same'). This was the motto of the school's official foundress, Elizabeth I, whose royal successor in name and title re-opened the school 400 years later.

    I think we'll be just fine :smile:
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,014
    eadric said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    If it was COVID19 in Dec/Jan then we would have seen it in a collapse of ICU and ER a couple of months ago. It must have been different, like what I have at the moment.

    I am convinced there's been a lot more going on this winter with different influenza strains out there and COVID-19 has just come along as well. Many people have reported different forms of illness (I can add myself to that list) in December and January and while mine responded to antibiotics and time too much has been reported for me not to have some suspicions.

    I'd also add it was a very mild winter across most of the northern hemisphere and I wonder if that contributed to the persistence of infection.

    A lot of my friends - and me - are reporting a weird, persistent sniffle, particularly noticeable in the morning.

    It’s not coronavirus, it’s not even a cold. Is it hypochondria? Allergies? Nerves?
    Hay fever? It's tree pollen season.
This discussion has been closed.