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  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    I see even in these dark times PB is keeping standards up by discussing F+N wine selections :smile:

    What do you mean 'even'? It's precisely in these dark times that you most need decent wines. (Since you ask, Pol Roger last night, just the non-vintage. I thought about the R de Ruinart, which would have been appropriate as we usually have it at the Royal Opera House, and we were sitting down to watch the free stream of the Met's Die Walküre, but decided the occasion wasn't quite special enough for the Ruinart.)
    Hang on, why did no one mention free streams from the Met? How did you get it and are there any more?
    Here you go:

    https://www.metopera.org/user-information/nightly-met-opera-streams/

    They are available for 23 hours from 7.30pm New York time, i.e. 11.30pm our time, which means you can watch them here the next evening. As far as I can tell they don't cut you off if you are still watching at 10.30pm our time.

    So, Siegfried tonight if you want!

    Other opera houses are doing similar streams. Also see here, there's a free 30-day subscription available:

    https://www.marquee.tv/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited March 2020
    Alistair said:

    The Republicans have gone back to odds on favourite for November.

    I can't decide what to do.

    I'm on pause too. I retain most of my longstanding confidence that Trump will lose but not all of it. I fear a "War Leader" boost for him. Indeed we're seeing it. But this is only March.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,373

    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    I agree. Apart from a Fortnum's wine delivery (half bottles are very helpful in the present circs!) which has just arrived, my discretionary spending this week has been £0. £2500 ought to be enough to tide most people in furlough over.

    If you are buying wine from Fortnum's then you should be the one dishing out £2,500 to a few thousand people just on principle.

    As a wine guide once observed: if you find yourself in Fortnum's wine department, walk outside and take a taxi to any proper wine shop within a 20 mile radius. The savings you make will be substantial enough to include both the taxi fare there and onward with your wine to home.
    Do Farrs also sell Dundee Cake, and Biscuits, and Jams, and Honeys - and all those other cupboard staples that we seemed to run out of at exactly the same time?

    I also find their deliveries fantastic. Sure, I'm sure I could save money shopping elsewhere, but at the moment they're reassuringly expensive and offer a top service.
    There was a time when my Dad was on an exercise on Salisbury Plain... somehow he persuaded the radio operator to allow him to send a personal message... later that evening a delivery man on a motorbike turned up at his platoon's trench and delivered them a full Fortum's hamper...
    Your father was obviously an amazing man.
    Shades of a younger (one day Admiral) Beatty - in the Sudan campaign he commanded a gunboat on the Nile. A cavalry officer had a shouted conversation with him, and he lobbed him a bottle of champagne.

    The office was Winston Churchill, who as First Lord of the Admiralty, some time later, saved Beatty's career by giving him a post and a promotion. (he was being eased out of the navy).

    Cast your bread unto the waters....
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    IanB2 said:

    I see even in these dark times PB is keeping standards up by discussing F+N wine selections :smile:

    What do you mean 'even'? It's precisely in these dark times that you most need decent wines. (Since you ask, Pol Roger last night, just the non-vintage. I thought about the R de Ruinart, which would have been appropriate as we usually have it at the Royal Opera House, and we were sitting down to watch the free stream of the Met's Die Walküre, but decided the occasion wasn't quite special enough for the Ruinart.)
    What a mixed up post! One minute you are talking about consoling yourself with the pleasure of “decent wines”. Yet, the very next, about over-acidic French plonk tarted up with bubbles to palm it off on those who know no better.
    You obviously haven't tried, and certainly not appreciated, R de Ruinart. Mind you, some English sparkling wines are also excellent (albeit generally a little higher in acidity).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:



    Yes.

    But do remember a couple of things:

    1. We start with 100x the testing capacity we had back in January / February. This means we can be much more proactive about getting to cases before they spread. In an ideal world, people who have any symptoms use an app or dial a phone number, and a tester is sent around within a couple of hours. Furthermore, those people who worked with that person can be tested before they spread the disease.

    2. There will be a proportion of the population (between 1% and 15%) who will likely have immunity. These people - once identified - can continue their regular lives, and can act as frontline testers.

    3. As you say, we can be smart at removing restrictions. And we can also be smart at reimposing them.

    4. We will have many more ventilators next time around. And we will likely know drug and treatment regimes that lower the hospitalisation and death rate. (And it's possible that hydroxychloroquine + azythromicin is pretty good.)....

    Possible; but also quite possible it's not.
    Though there are also Remdesivir and Actemra (and others), which look equally, if not more promising.

    Otherwise, agreed. We'll have both more information and more capacity to deal with following peaks, and a better idea of how quickly we might need to lock down and for how long, should things start to get out of control.

    There are some grounds for optimism if we can get through the next few weeks.
    https://twitter.com/business/status/1243134126800220160
  • Self employed people. We'll give you a grant!

    In June. FFS...
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Richi has carrot and stick - oooft.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    I see even in these dark times PB is keeping standards up by discussing F+N wine selections :smile:

    What do you mean 'even'? It's precisely in these dark times that you most need decent wines. (Since you ask, Pol Roger last night, just the non-vintage. I thought about the R de Ruinart, which would have been appropriate as we usually have it at the Royal Opera House, and we were sitting down to watch the free stream of the Met's Die Walküre, but decided the occasion wasn't quite special enough for the Ruinart.)
    Hang on, why did no one mention free streams from the Met? How did you get it and are there any more?
    Here you go:

    https://www.metopera.org/user-information/nightly-met-opera-streams/

    They are available for 23 hours from 7.30pm New York time, i.e. 11.30pm our time, which means you can watch them here the next evening. As far as I can tell they don't cut you off if you are still watching at 10.30pm our time.

    So, Siegfried tonight if you want!

    Other opera houses are doing similar streams. Also see here, there's a free 30-day subscription available:

    https://www.marquee.tv/
    Thank you very much for that!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    I agree. Apart from a Fortnum's wine delivery (half bottles are very helpful in the present circs!) which has just arrived, my discretionary spending this week has been £0. £2500 ought to be enough to tide most people in furlough over.

    If you are buying wine from Fortnum's then you should be the one dishing out £2,500 to a few thousand people just on principle.

    As a wine guide once observed: if you find yourself in Fortnum's wine department, walk outside and take a taxi to any proper wine shop within a 20 mile radius. The savings you make will be substantial enough to include both the taxi fare there and onward with your wine to home.
    Do Farrs also sell Dundee Cake, and Biscuits, and Jams, and Honeys - and all those other cupboard staples that we seemed to run out of at exactly the same time?

    I also find their deliveries fantastic. Sure, I'm sure I could save money shopping elsewhere, but at the moment they're reassuringly expensive and offer a top service.
    There was a time when my Dad was on an exercise on Salisbury Plain... somehow he persuaded the radio operator to allow him to send a personal message... later that evening a delivery man on a motorbike turned up at his platoon's trench and delivered them a full Fortum's hamper...
    I hope he was promoted for his show of initiative ?
    Never above Lance Bombardier...

    Although many years later - when he was Deputy Lieutenant of Hampshire - he technically had the rank (and uniform/sword) of a Colonel. His regiment still made him sit with the ranks though...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    rcs1000 said:

    ABZ said:

    On reflection, I think we should not expect a peak but rather a plateau. This reflects the (stochastic) latency of the disease. A plateau over a week or so should likely then be followed by a fall. I think this is where we are in Italy at present.

    Are you talking about a peak in total number infected, or number of positive daily tests?

    The other problem, of course, in measuring where countries are is the difference in testing regimes. If a country moves to only testing people in hospital with obvious symptoms, then it'll probably see the number of tests decline, and the number of positives decline. Yet that masks underlying deterioration.

    To my mind the evidence of getting CV-19 under control in a country is when you get the combination of (a) rising numbers of tests, and (b) falling number of positives.

    Which is where Italy was yesterday - all time peak in numbers of administered tests, sixth highest number of positives.

    Hopefully today will see another peak in number of administered tests, and the number of positives drop again.

    It will also be instructive to see where we are with Lombardy and Veneto, as they are 3-4 days ahead of the rest of Italy.
    The medium-term aim won't be a return to track and trace though. Suppression measures will need to continue for a long time.
    Yeah, but suppression measures will be a lot less than 18 months of total lockdown.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited March 2020
    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    Self employed people. We'll give you a grant!

    In June. FFS...

    As I keep saying they will not be able to cope with all the Furlough payments, yet alone the self employed as well,. It will be months before any money is paid out
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TGOHF666 said:
    That is a great account, with only 73 followers!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Fill your boots.

    If you didnt file a tax return in January do it now and it will count

    £50k profit
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    My preferred solution would have been to drop some helicopter money on everyone. Avoid all this admin with grant schemes and loan schemes and means testing forms and the rest.

    Recover the cost on full from higher rate taxpayers by - for this year only - reducing the point at which you pay higher rate tax by a balancing amount. Push the enhanced higher rate tax back up to 50%.

    Partially offset the cost of the helicopter money by reducing the personal tax allowance, for this year only. And by making the helicopter money taxable.

    Those lucky enough to still be earning aren’t spending. Asking us to pay more tax, temporarily, to keep those not earning above water is entirely reasonable.

    Coming along afterwards to try and balance the books will be a lot more difficult. The oldies will have forgotten by then all the sacrifices working age people made to keep them safe, including volunteering in huge numbers to do their shopping and deliver their medicines, and will go back to moaning about having to pay for their TV licence.

    On fire there, Ian. High earners with income still flowing but fewer ways to spend it. What a compelling case - financial and moral - for a tax hike. If there isn't one they could end up better (!) off which would be unconscionable. You would probably have to exempt some people though, e.g. doctors and the like.
    Nah. Why do doctors need more money, when they are going to get nationwide applause at 8 pm?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Should we be sending aid ships across the Atlantic to New York?

    Not after what they did to the tea last time.
    That was Boston!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    ni on self employment going forward
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,373

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:



    The only risk with going ahead with the EU allocation of ventilators is the cost of equipment. Which is trivial in the scheme of things. If the government finds they are surplus to requirements, it can sell them on. It's a no brainer.

    The risks are much higher of depending on a manufacturer, who hasn't made this equipment before to productise a new design in a matter of days without testing in the field. It is sensible to mitigate that risk.

    Brexit is the only reason I can see for not doing so. The government hasn't actually put forward a justification for not doing so..

    Do you know?

    My guess - and it is just a guess - that if you participate in the scheme then *all* equipment has to be purchased through it (and shared according to whatever the scheme sets out). This is sensible because it stops the various countries also going direct and competing for supply.

    Given that Smiths Medical (one of the leading manufacturers of ventilators), Medlock Medical (ditto for PPE) and Regent Biogel (ditto for surgical gloves) are all based in the UK it may have been rational for the UK to decline.

    I can quite imagine that the government doesn't want to stand up publicly and say "f*ck everyone else, we are hoarding stuff for our own population". The optics would not be good.

    Do you have the list of countries participating? I don't think it is all of them.

    I'd be particularly interested in Sweden (Molnlycke, Getinge) and Germany (Hartmann).
    It would be reasonable in that case for the government to offer this explanation in response to the direct question. In fact their very weak justification is that "we're no longer members of the EU", which supports my explanation.

    I get the impression that this is something of a Boris Bus project where the project becomes the objective, not the product itself. So that might be part of it.
    If you are going to make an accusation of that serious a nature you need more evidence than "I get the impression"
    It's a case of "wants to believe"

    For information - the Boris Buses are still going strong. The bendy buses they replaced, which were sold to overseas, are all out of service.
    Somewhat more than needed spin in that post. Here's a few more facts.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/31/boris-bus-london-transport-sadiq-khan-end
    Khan halted the purchases. The existing Boris Buses are running on a number of routes to this day.

    The claim about them was that they were expensive - they were, because they used a hybrid power train to reduce emissions. Which needed to be reduced in London because of environmental legislation.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    I agree. Apart from a Fortnum's wine delivery (half bottles are very helpful in the present circs!) which has just arrived, my discretionary spending this week has been £0. £2500 ought to be enough to tide most people in furlough over.

    If you are buying wine from Fortnum's then you should be the one dishing out £2,500 to a few thousand people just on principle.

    As a wine guide once observed: if you find yourself in Fortnum's wine department, walk outside and take a taxi to any proper wine shop within a 20 mile radius. The savings you make will be substantial enough to include both the taxi fare there and onward with your wine to home.
    Do Farrs also sell Dundee Cake, and Biscuits, and Jams, and Honeys - and all those other cupboard staples that we seemed to run out of at exactly the same time?

    I also find their deliveries fantastic. Sure, I'm sure I could save money shopping elsewhere, but at the moment they're reassuringly expensive and offer a top service.
    There was a time when my Dad was on an exercise on Salisbury Plain... somehow he persuaded the radio operator to allow him to send a personal message... later that evening a delivery man on a motorbike turned up at his platoon's trench and delivered them a full Fortum's hamper...
    Your father was obviously an amazing man.
    Shades of a younger (one day Admiral) Beatty - in the Sudan campaign he commanded a gunboat on the Nile. A cavalry officer had a shouted conversation with him, and he lobbed him a bottle of champagne.

    The office was Winston Churchill, who as First Lord of the Admiralty, some time later, saved Beatty's career by giving him a post and a promotion. (he was being eased out of the navy).

    Cast your bread unto the waters....
    That brings us back to wine bottles: Churchill is supposed to have drunk pint bottles of champagne as half a bottle was not enough, but a full bottle was a bit to much: at breakfast.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    isam said:

    Interesting @felix intends to spend, spend, spend when this is all over. I was wondering earlier if the public would take the opportunity to go crazy with their freedom when we are allowed, or whether the quiet, frugal existence might make them appreciate the best things in life are free.

    I hope for the latter, but am probably wrong

    I'm not really a crazy spender! Since I became a pensioner 10 years ago - I have saved typically 10% of my income each year. Apart from new cars I'm generally a modest spender.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Listening to two Doctors on CNN - unreal and humbling
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    rcs1000 said:

    Yeah, but Fortnums has an unrivalled selection of half bottles.

    Berry Brothers might a better wine merchant, but it simply doesn't stock them.

    When my wife was pregnant, I used to buy loads of half bottles from there.

    Very chivalrous. I know plenty of blokes who would still have expected her to buy her own.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    Brilliant
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    Not great but all absorbed by the increase in Lombardy (could be a stochastic blip - next few days will tell more). Rest of Italy is similar to previous days, somewhat consistent with cases plateauing perhaps.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    rpjs said:

    Should we be sending aid ships across the Atlantic to New York?

    Not after what they did to the tea last time.
    That was Boston!
    And they have been dipping tea into cold water ever since.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,373

    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    I agree. Apart from a Fortnum's wine delivery (half bottles are very helpful in the present circs!) which has just arrived, my discretionary spending this week has been £0. £2500 ought to be enough to tide most people in furlough over.

    If you are buying wine from Fortnum's then you should be the one dishing out £2,500 to a few thousand people just on principle.

    As a wine guide once observed: if you find yourself in Fortnum's wine department, walk outside and take a taxi to any proper wine shop within a 20 mile radius. The savings you make will be substantial enough to include both the taxi fare there and onward with your wine to home.
    Do Farrs also sell Dundee Cake, and Biscuits, and Jams, and Honeys - and all those other cupboard staples that we seemed to run out of at exactly the same time?

    I also find their deliveries fantastic. Sure, I'm sure I could save money shopping elsewhere, but at the moment they're reassuringly expensive and offer a top service.
    There was a time when my Dad was on an exercise on Salisbury Plain... somehow he persuaded the radio operator to allow him to send a personal message... later that evening a delivery man on a motorbike turned up at his platoon's trench and delivered them a full Fortum's hamper...
    Your father was obviously an amazing man.
    Shades of a younger (one day Admiral) Beatty - in the Sudan campaign he commanded a gunboat on the Nile. A cavalry officer had a shouted conversation with him, and he lobbed him a bottle of champagne.

    The office was Winston Churchill, who as First Lord of the Admiralty, some time later, saved Beatty's career by giving him a post and a promotion. (he was being eased out of the navy).

    Cast your bread unto the waters....
    That brings us back to wine bottles: Churchill is supposed to have drunk pint bottles of champagne as half a bottle was not enough, but a full bottle was a bit to much: at breakfast.
    Pol Roger said they were bringing back the pint sized bottle in their Churchill cuvee - not sure if they went ahead...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    After a couple of encouraging days out of Italy, those are bad numbers.

    That is an all time high number of new cases.
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441
    ABZ said:

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    Not great but all absorbed by the increase in Lombardy (could be a stochastic blip - next few days will tell more). Rest of Italy is similar to previous days, somewhat consistent with cases plateauing perhaps.
    Albeit better news on deaths, which do seem to have plateaued and should be a bit more stable than positives in the number of tests, which will depend on the number of tests as @rcs1000 points out.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 370
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ABZ said:

    On reflection, I think we should not expect a peak but rather a plateau. This reflects the (stochastic) latency of the disease. A plateau over a week or so should likely then be followed by a fall. I think this is where we are in Italy at present.

    Are you talking about a peak in total number infected, or number of positive daily tests?

    The other problem, of course, in measuring where countries are is the difference in testing regimes. If a country moves to only testing people in hospital with obvious symptoms, then it'll probably see the number of tests decline, and the number of positives decline. Yet that masks underlying deterioration.

    To my mind the evidence of getting CV-19 under control in a country is when you get the combination of (a) rising numbers of tests, and (b) falling number of positives.

    Which is where Italy was yesterday - all time peak in numbers of administered tests, sixth highest number of positives.

    Hopefully today will see another peak in number of administered tests, and the number of positives drop again.

    It will also be instructive to see where we are with Lombardy and Veneto, as they are 3-4 days ahead of the rest of Italy.
    The medium-term aim won't be a return to track and trace though. Suppression measures will need to continue for a long time.
    Yeah, but suppression measures will be a lot less than 18 months of total lockdown.
    This is a crisis that we could see coming but failed to prepare for. New cases are bound to plateau or reduce before the end of the year. Once they have come down the lockdown will be eased. This is also an economic crisis and the government will reopen part of the economy at some stage. Then it will have to start to reduce the financial support that it is giving to people and businesses who have been affected. We really need a vaccine as soon as possible and I hope the government will support this as it cannot cost as much as the shutdown.
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441
    rcs1000 said:

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    After a couple of encouraging days out of Italy, those are bad numbers.

    That is an all time high number of new cases.
    No it's not - there were 6557 new cases on March 21.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    rcs1000 said:

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    After a couple of encouraging days out of Italy, those are bad numbers.

    That is an all time high number of new cases.
    They have been in lockdown for 17 days!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    fox327 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ABZ said:

    On reflection, I think we should not expect a peak but rather a plateau. This reflects the (stochastic) latency of the disease. A plateau over a week or so should likely then be followed by a fall. I think this is where we are in Italy at present.

    Are you talking about a peak in total number infected, or number of positive daily tests?

    The other problem, of course, in measuring where countries are is the difference in testing regimes. If a country moves to only testing people in hospital with obvious symptoms, then it'll probably see the number of tests decline, and the number of positives decline. Yet that masks underlying deterioration.

    To my mind the evidence of getting CV-19 under control in a country is when you get the combination of (a) rising numbers of tests, and (b) falling number of positives.

    Which is where Italy was yesterday - all time peak in numbers of administered tests, sixth highest number of positives.

    Hopefully today will see another peak in number of administered tests, and the number of positives drop again.

    It will also be instructive to see where we are with Lombardy and Veneto, as they are 3-4 days ahead of the rest of Italy.
    The medium-term aim won't be a return to track and trace though. Suppression measures will need to continue for a long time.
    Yeah, but suppression measures will be a lot less than 18 months of total lockdown.
    This is a crisis that we could see coming but failed to prepare for. New cases are bound to plateau or reduce before the end of the year. Once they have come down the lockdown will be eased. This is also an economic crisis and the government will reopen part of the economy at some stage. Then it will have to start to reduce the financial support that it is giving to people and businesses who have been affected. We really need a vaccine as soon as possible and I hope the government will support this as it cannot cost as much as the shutdown.
    In all probability, new cases will peak in the next three weeks.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441
    rcs1000 said:

    fox327 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ABZ said:

    On reflection, I think we should not expect a peak but rather a plateau. This reflects the (stochastic) latency of the disease. A plateau over a week or so should likely then be followed by a fall. I think this is where we are in Italy at present.

    Are you talking about a peak in total number infected, or number of positive daily tests?

    The other problem, of course, in measuring where countries are is the difference in testing regimes. If a country moves to only testing people in hospital with obvious symptoms, then it'll probably see the number of tests decline, and the number of positives decline. Yet that masks underlying deterioration.

    To my mind the evidence of getting CV-19 under control in a country is when you get the combination of (a) rising numbers of tests, and (b) falling number of positives.

    Which is where Italy was yesterday - all time peak in numbers of administered tests, sixth highest number of positives.

    Hopefully today will see another peak in number of administered tests, and the number of positives drop again.

    It will also be instructive to see where we are with Lombardy and Veneto, as they are 3-4 days ahead of the rest of Italy.
    The medium-term aim won't be a return to track and trace though. Suppression measures will need to continue for a long time.
    Yeah, but suppression measures will be a lot less than 18 months of total lockdown.
    This is a crisis that we could see coming but failed to prepare for. New cases are bound to plateau or reduce before the end of the year. Once they have come down the lockdown will be eased. This is also an economic crisis and the government will reopen part of the economy at some stage. Then it will have to start to reduce the financial support that it is giving to people and businesses who have been affected. We really need a vaccine as soon as possible and I hope the government will support this as it cannot cost as much as the shutdown.
    In all probability, new cases will peak in the next three weeks.
    Absolutely! They should, with the social distancing, rise for two weeks, plateau and then decline. Social distancing is a very blunt tool but it should be very effective.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    Brilliant
    Err what?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    I agree. Apart from a Fortnum's wine delivery (half bottles are very helpful in the present circs!) which has just arrived, my discretionary spending this week has been £0. £2500 ought to be enough to tide most people in furlough over.

    If you are buying wine from Fortnum's then you should be the one dishing out £2,500 to a few thousand people just on principle.

    As a wine guide once observed: if you find yourself in Fortnum's wine department, walk outside and take a taxi to any proper wine shop within a 20 mile radius. The savings you make will be substantial enough to include both the taxi fare there and onward with your wine to home.
    Do Farrs also sell Dundee Cake, and Biscuits, and Jams, and Honeys - and all those other cupboard staples that we seemed to run out of at exactly the same time?

    I also find their deliveries fantastic. Sure, I'm sure I could save money shopping elsewhere, but at the moment they're reassuringly expensive and offer a top service.
    There was a time when my Dad was on an exercise on Salisbury Plain... somehow he persuaded the radio operator to allow him to send a personal message... later that evening a delivery man on a motorbike turned up at his platoon's trench and delivered them a full Fortum's hamper...
    I hope he was promoted for his show of initiative ?
    Never above Lance Bombardier...

    Although many years later - when he was Deputy Lieutenant of Hampshire - he technically had the rank (and uniform/sword) of a Colonel. His regiment still made him sit with the ranks though...
    How very narrow-minded of them.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I don't see how lockdowns work with these numbers
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    ABZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    After a couple of encouraging days out of Italy, those are bad numbers.

    That is an all time high number of new cases.
    No it's not - there were 6557 new cases on March 21.
    You're right. I was looking at the moving average in my spreadsheet, rather than the daily number.
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I don't see how lockdowns work with these numbers
    The numbers of new cases have been pretty consistent (around 5700 plus/minus 500) for the past few days. Without the lockdown these numbers would be shooting up massively as the epidemic would be unconstrained. We just need to see them start to decline - hopefully soon.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,709

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I don't see how lockdowns work with these numbers
    Can you imagine what the numbers would be without the lockdown?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    IanB2 said:

    rpjs said:

    Should we be sending aid ships across the Atlantic to New York?

    Not after what they did to the tea last time.
    That was Boston!
    And they have been dipping tea into cold water ever since.
    I ordered two boxes of 240 bags PG Tips just as WFH started here.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I don't see how lockdowns work with these numbers
    Can you imagine what the numbers would be without the lockdown?
    The same ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    I agree. Apart from a Fortnum's wine delivery (half bottles are very helpful in the present circs!) which has just arrived, my discretionary spending this week has been £0. £2500 ought to be enough to tide most people in furlough over.

    If you are buying wine from Fortnum's then you should be the one dishing out £2,500 to a few thousand people just on principle.

    As a wine guide once observed: if you find yourself in Fortnum's wine department, walk outside and take a taxi to any proper wine shop within a 20 mile radius. The savings you make will be substantial enough to include both the taxi fare there and onward with your wine to home.
    Do Farrs also sell Dundee Cake, and Biscuits, and Jams, and Honeys - and all those other cupboard staples that we seemed to run out of at exactly the same time?

    I also find their deliveries fantastic. Sure, I'm sure I could save money shopping elsewhere, but at the moment they're reassuringly expensive and offer a top service.
    There was a time when my Dad was on an exercise on Salisbury Plain... somehow he persuaded the radio operator to allow him to send a personal message... later that evening a delivery man on a motorbike turned up at his platoon's trench and delivered them a full Fortum's hamper...
    I hope he was promoted for his show of initiative ?
    Never above Lance Bombardier...

    Although many years later - when he was Deputy Lieutenant of Hampshire - he technically had the rank (and uniform/sword) of a Colonel. His regiment still made him sit with the ranks though...
    How very narrow-minded of them.
    Nah - it was the HAC. As with virtually everything they do it was to take the mick.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Self employed people. We'll give you a grant!

    In June. FFS...

    As I keep saying they will not be able to cope with all the Furlough payments, yet alone the self employed as well,. It will be months before any money is paid out
    If the virus is significantly under control and the economy is looking a lot healthier by the end of May, I wonder if these payments will actually be made....

  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    I guess a lot of self employed now have regrets, that they stated that they only earned 12 k.So they did not pay tax, when in reality they were earning a lot more.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,755
    TGOHF666 said:
    One thing that will be interesting, after all this is over, will be to see how the cases and deaths from other infectious diseases are reduced by the lockdown and even by people just paying a bit more attention to basic hand washing etc (I guess we're late in the flu season now, but that, for example, you'd expect to be down).
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Floater said:

    Selebian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "NHS doctor 'evicted from home due to landlady's fears over COVID-19'

    The medic says she was "feeling pretty broken" after being evicted, but random acts of kindness since have lifted her spirits."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-doctor-evicted-from-home-due-to-landladys-fears-over-covid-19-11963799

    Landlords.
    On the other hand, well done Sainsbury's and the staff member she spoke to.
    Yes, well done Sainsbury's
    Well done all supermarket staff for sticking to their jobs which are not without hazard.
    And petrol station cashiers and refuse guys and delivery people and warehouse folk and bus drivers. Never was so much owed by so many etc.
    Quite.
    There are lots of us still going to work (as we should if it's not possible to work from home, and we can maintain physical distancing), but there are those who have to keep going to work despite not being entirely secure, because the rest of us depend on them.
    The platforms and rigs are still operating in the North Sea and it is utterly impossible to maintain any sort of social distancing on those things.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    edited March 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    ABZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    After a couple of encouraging days out of Italy, those are bad numbers.

    That is an all time high number of new cases.
    No it's not - there were 6557 new cases on March 21.
    You're right. I was looking at the moving average in my spreadsheet, rather than the daily number.
    It's actually the lowest number of new cases for more than a week.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,709
    TGOHF666 said:

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I don't see how lockdowns work with these numbers
    Can you imagine what the numbers would be without the lockdown?
    The same ?
    That's not very plausible, is it?
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    CatMan said:
    Feb 19th: Atalanta v Valencia

    Feb 21st: 18 cases in Bergamo

    March 26th: Armageddon in Italy and Spain

    Football has a lot to answer for. I don't think we've seen the consquences of the Liverpool v Atletico game yet.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    OK.

    Some good news out of the Italian numbers.

    Yesterday the Italians did 36,615 CV-19 tests.

    That means that the proportion of positive tests actually declined yesterday to 17%.

    The proportion of positive tests has been on a steady downward path in Italy. It suggests that the Italians were almost certainly undercounting CV-19 cases in the recent past.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited March 2020

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I think the population in Milan is younger than in the surrounding areas. Maybe this would mean more cases but less fatalities (per capita)?
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I don't see how lockdowns work with these numbers
    Can you imagine what the numbers would be without the lockdown?
    The same ?
    That's not very plausible, is it?
    We will never know. Ask a country which doesn’t lockdown in a year..
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    You're right. I was looking at the moving average in my spreadsheet, rather than the daily number.

    It's actually the lowest number of new cases for more than a week.
    Eh? New cases by day for the last week, Bear in mind the low number from Monday was (effectively) Sunday's results and based on few tests.

    5,986
    6,557
    5,560
    3780
    5249
    5210
    6153
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    Self employed people. We'll give you a grant!

    In June. FFS...

    As I keep saying they will not be able to cope with all the Furlough payments, yet alone the self employed as well,. It will be months before any money is paid out
    If the virus is significantly under control and the economy is looking a lot healthier by the end of May, I wonder if these payments will actually be made....

    Ask anyone trying to claim Universal Credit now, they have no chance.

    Who are these people who are going to administer Furlough payments, it simply wont happen
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    Four more weeks to file a tax return seems overly generous when any such person is already almost two months late.

    If people are at home with nothing to do then surely no excuse for not doing it immediately. I would have thought 7 days was quite long enough, certainly 14 days would be.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Fenster said:

    CatMan said:
    Feb 19th: Atalanta v Valencia

    Feb 21st: 18 cases in Bergamo

    March 26th: Armageddon in Italy and Spain

    Football has a lot to answer for. I don't think we've seen the consquences of the Liverpool v Atletico game yet.
    Correlation does not prove causation.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    rcs1000 said:

    OK.

    Some good news out of the Italian numbers.

    Yesterday the Italians did 36,615 CV-19 tests.

    That means that the proportion of positive tests actually declined yesterday to 17%.

    The proportion of positive tests has been on a steady downward path in Italy. It suggests that the Italians were almost certainly undercounting CV-19 cases in the recent past.

    If these people have been locked away for 17 days who are they catching Covid-19 from?
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    This is crap if 51% of your income is from employment. A lot of people at the lower end have a mixed income.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ABZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Italy


    Current positives: 62.013 (net increase of 4.492)
    Deaths: 8.165 (+662)
    Healed: 10.361 (+999)

    Total new cases: 6.153 (+8,3%)

    After a couple of encouraging days out of Italy, those are bad numbers.

    That is an all time high number of new cases.
    No it's not - there were 6557 new cases on March 21.
    You're right. I was looking at the moving average in my spreadsheet, rather than the daily number.
    It's actually the lowest number of new cases for more than a week.
    I don't think you are right

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2020
    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes, I seem to be right:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,709
    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I don't see how lockdowns work with these numbers
    Can you imagine what the numbers would be without the lockdown?
    The same ?
    That's not very plausible, is it?
    We will never know. Ask a country which doesn’t lockdown in a year..
    We're discussing the number of new cases today, not what the best overall long-term strategy is.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    I'm looking forward to the paid holidays, sick days, paternity leave, pension, compassionate leave, and redundancy payments I'll be receiving now that self-employment is apparently deemed to be worthy of equal treatment to employment.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    TGOHF666 said:

    The bad numbers in Lombady led by bad numbers in Milan according to the regional cabinet member for welfare

    I don't see how lockdowns work with these numbers
    Can you imagine what the numbers would be without the lockdown?
    The same ?
    Seriously? Imperial disagree with you, but what do they know......
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Oh dear what a shame.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Contrarily, my alcohol consumption has declined since I entered the Covid-19 twilight world. My other half has decided we need to lose weight so the wine has been sparingly opened.

    Very wise but I, alas, cannot say the same. I am getting through an awful lot of "Waitrose Italian Red" (£4.95) every evening. "Rich and intense" it says on the label, and it is. It's rich and intense.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Sucks to be a BBC name then I guess.......
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441

    rcs1000 said:

    OK.

    Some good news out of the Italian numbers.

    Yesterday the Italians did 36,615 CV-19 tests.

    That means that the proportion of positive tests actually declined yesterday to 17%.

    The proportion of positive tests has been on a steady downward path in Italy. It suggests that the Italians were almost certainly undercounting CV-19 cases in the recent past.

    If these people have been locked away for 17 days who are they catching Covid-19 from?
    They are not catching Covid-19 - they most likely had it beforehand but it can be 14-21 days before you display serious enough symptoms that would justify going to hospital for treatment. Hence, after the 3 weeks new cases would be those transmitted within households. It's why we should expect a bit of a plateau for a few days before the decline really kicks in. And @rcs1000 that's good news re the number of tests - much more like the trend we want to see!!
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    I agree. Apart from a Fortnum's wine delivery (half bottles are very helpful in the present circs!) which has just arrived, my discretionary spending this week has been £0. £2500 ought to be enough to tide most people in furlough over.

    If you are buying wine from Fortnum's then you should be the one dishing out £2,500 to a few thousand people just on principle.

    As a wine guide once observed: if you find yourself in Fortnum's wine department, walk outside and take a taxi to any proper wine shop within a 20 mile radius. The savings you make will be substantial enough to include both the taxi fare there and onward with your wine to home.
    Yeah, but Fortnums has an unrivalled selection of half bottles.

    Berry Brothers might a better wine merchant, but it simply doesn't stock them.

    When my wife was pregnant, I used to buy loads of half bottles from there.
    All those half bottles suggests a customer base of lonely rich people ?

    Or a wife that doesn't drink. Half bottles aid my will power.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes, I seem to be right:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    No sympathy for the tax dodgers.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    I'm looking forward to the paid holidays, sick days, paternity leave, pension, compassionate leave, and redundancy payments I'll be receiving now that self-employment is apparently deemed to be worthy of equal treatment to employment.

    You can pay yourself for all of those now - you are choosing not to - perhaps you should be on a list with Mike Ashley and Mr Wetherspoon.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    TGOHF666 said:

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Oh dear what a shame.
    They were acting perfectly legally and responding exactly to the strong incentives put in place by successive governments. Blame the governments for the wonky tax system, not them for being tilted by it.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    rcs1000 said:

    You're right. I was looking at the moving average in my spreadsheet, rather than the daily number.

    It's actually the lowest number of new cases for more than a week.
    Eh? New cases by day for the last week, Bear in mind the low number from Monday was (effectively) Sunday's results and based on few tests.

    5,986
    6,557
    5,560
    3780
    5249
    5210
    6153
    Sorry - I was looking at the rise in the number described as "current positives", and assuming it meant cumulative positive tests. I've never seen that phrase used before. I assume it meant active cases.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,709
    ABZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK.

    Some good news out of the Italian numbers.

    Yesterday the Italians did 36,615 CV-19 tests.

    That means that the proportion of positive tests actually declined yesterday to 17%.

    The proportion of positive tests has been on a steady downward path in Italy. It suggests that the Italians were almost certainly undercounting CV-19 cases in the recent past.

    If these people have been locked away for 17 days who are they catching Covid-19 from?
    They are not catching Covid-19 - they most likely had it beforehand but it can be 14-21 days before you display serious enough symptoms that would justify going to hospital for treatment. Hence, after the 3 weeks new cases would be those transmitted within households. It's why we should expect a bit of a plateau for a few days before the decline really kicks in. And @rcs1000 that's good news re the number of tests - much more like the trend we want to see!!
    Also a lockdown will not eliminate transmission by 100%. There are still people moving around for essential jobs, and not everyone will maintain all the right protocols all the time. While there are a lot of infectious people, and a lot of people without immunity, it will inevitably spread.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I'm entertained at the thought I could take two weeks off and earn money during that time.

    I get paid for doing work. If I don't do work, I don't get paid.

    The self-employed don't get paid holidays the way the employed do.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes, I seem to be right:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Chickens coming home to roost.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Oh dear what a shame.
    They were acting perfectly legally and responding exactly to the strong incentives put in place by successive governments. Blame the governments for the wonky tax system, not them for being tilted by it.
    Shall I cut an onion ? They won’t starve.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    I realise I have been going on too much about ventilators and the EU, but this is a new twist. Presumably the "communication problem" in question was something along the lines of "fuck off, EU."

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1243221637035671553
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    ABZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK.

    Some good news out of the Italian numbers.

    Yesterday the Italians did 36,615 CV-19 tests.

    That means that the proportion of positive tests actually declined yesterday to 17%.

    The proportion of positive tests has been on a steady downward path in Italy. It suggests that the Italians were almost certainly undercounting CV-19 cases in the recent past.

    If these people have been locked away for 17 days who are they catching Covid-19 from?
    They are not catching Covid-19 - they most likely had it beforehand but it can be 14-21 days before you display serious enough symptoms that would justify going to hospital for treatment. Hence, after the 3 weeks new cases would be those transmitted within households. It's why we should expect a bit of a plateau for a few days before the decline really kicks in. And @rcs1000 that's good news re the number of tests - much more like the trend we want to see!!
    You have to look at what the shutdown actually consisted of, I don’t think Italy shut down bars at the start having people sit 2 meters apart. So the real shut down maybe a few days later.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    FFS Mr Dancer!!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited March 2020

    TGOHF666 said:

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Oh dear what a shame.
    They were acting perfectly legally and responding exactly to the strong incentives put in place by successive governments. Blame the governments for the wonky tax system, not them for being tilted by it.
    Did he say they were acting illegally? I don't see that not feeling a huge burst of sympathy is that objectionable.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Owls, yes? :p
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    edited March 2020

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I'm entertained at the thought I could take two weeks off and earn money during that time.

    I get paid for doing work. If I don't do work, I don't get paid.

    The self-employed don't get paid holidays the way the employed do.

    Do you think the government pays for my holiday ?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    FF43 said:

    I realise I have been going on too much about ventilators and the EU, but this is a new twist. Presumably the "communication problem" in question was something along the lines of "fuck off, EU."

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1243221637035671553

    Of course you can make any assumption you like based on your own silly prejudices and be judged accordingly.
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441
    @rcs1000 can you share the fraction of positive tests per day in Italy? Would be useful to see that trend.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,037
    Well I've been to retrieve the bin. Three people walking in the lane - a pair and a single heading in opposite directions. But the highlight was a passing car, driven by a woman in a surgical mask.

    Wor Lass is mowing the lawn. I'm about to do the same to my facial hair.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    MaxPB said:

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes, I seem to be right:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    No sympathy for the tax dodgers.
    As someone who earns largely from dividends, I wasn't expecting anything today.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    MikeL said:

    Four more weeks to file a tax return seems overly generous when any such person is already almost two months late.

    If people are at home with nothing to do then surely no excuse for not doing it immediately. I would have thought 7 days was quite long enough, certainly 14 days would be.

    Is there a legitimate reason why they wouldn't have filled in a tax return by now?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    So Taxi drivers arent going to drive Taxis once they get the 80%?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I'm entertained at the thought I could take two weeks off and earn money during that time.

    I get paid for doing work. If I don't do work, I don't get paid.

    The self-employed don't get paid holidays the way the employed do.

    Nor do they pay tax and insurance in the same way. In a free society you choose how you want to work or not as the case may be.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Oh dear what a shame.
    They were acting perfectly legally and responding exactly to the strong incentives put in place by successive governments. Blame the governments for the wonky tax system, not them for being tilted by it.
    Shall I cut an onion ? They won’t starve.
    Some of them earn very little.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 370
    rcs1000 said:

    fox327 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ABZ said:

    On reflection, I think we should not expect a peak but rather a plateau. This reflects the (stochastic) latency of the disease. A plateau over a week or so should likely then be followed by a fall. I think this is where we are in Italy at present.

    Are you talking about a peak in total number infected, or number of positive daily tests?

    The other problem, of course, in measuring where countries are is the difference in testing regimes. If a country moves to only testing people in hospital with obvious symptoms, then it'll probably see the number of tests decline, and the number of positives decline. Yet that masks underlying deterioration.

    To my mind the evidence of getting CV-19 under control in a country is when you get the combination of (a) rising numbers of tests, and (b) falling number of positives.

    Which is where Italy was yesterday - all time peak in numbers of administered tests, sixth highest number of positives.

    Hopefully today will see another peak in number of administered tests, and the number of positives drop again.

    It will also be instructive to see where we are with Lombardy and Veneto, as they are 3-4 days ahead of the rest of Italy.
    The medium-term aim won't be a return to track and trace though. Suppression measures will need to continue for a long time.
    Yeah, but suppression measures will be a lot less than 18 months of total lockdown.
    This is a crisis that we could see coming but failed to prepare for. New cases are bound to plateau or reduce before the end of the year. Once they have come down the lockdown will be eased. This is also an economic crisis and the government will reopen part of the economy at some stage. Then it will have to start to reduce the financial support that it is giving to people and businesses who have been affected. We really need a vaccine as soon as possible and I hope the government will support this as it cannot cost as much as the shutdown.
    In all probability, new cases will peak in the next three weeks.
    New cases might peak but they could then plateau and not reduce to a low level so the economy will have to remain locked down. I doubt that is sustainable for more than two years at the most. The problem we have is that an effective vaccine may not be available soon enough.

    One possibility is that a vaccine is made that halves the sickness caused by the virus but this would still be unacceptable to many people. Even than might not be achievable. I think we need to consider the possibility that there will be no way to suppress this virus long term. It will be interesting to see what happens in countries such as Iran, Sweden, the Netherlands and the US where a full lockdown may never be implemented. This could give us a better idea of what we are dealing with.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes, I seem to be right:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    No sympathy for the tax dodgers.
    As someone who earns largely from dividends, I wasn't expecting anything today.
    Edit to Add - but sadly I do have a corporation tax payment to make tomorrow :-(
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I never said the state gave you paid holidays. Your employer (which may or may not be the state) does. Nobody's going to do that for the self-employed, and nor should they. It's one of the various pros and cons that make working for oneself different to employment.

    The absence of paid holidays, sick days, compassionate leave, parental leave, and a company pension, I would argue, justify a lower rate of NI.

    If there's going to be a general argument about the need, with the debt hangover, of altering spending, taxation, and borrowing, then that may need to change as part of a wider approach. A piecemeal approach to such changes is, I would contend, unwise.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Oh dear what a shame.
    They were acting perfectly legally and responding exactly to the strong incentives put in place by successive governments. Blame the governments for the wonky tax system, not them for being tilted by it.
    Did he say they were acting illegally? I don't see that not feeling a huge burst of sympathy is that objectionable.
    No more objectionable than not feeling a huge burst of sympathy for the self-employed or low-paid employees, certainly.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    I don't think there's anything in the Chancellor's announcement for people who have their own one-person company and pay themselves mainly by dividends, is there? Normally they'll be paying themselves only the minimum to build up NI contribution years (£5.8K, IIRC).

    Edit: Yes:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1243229165517778945

    Oh dear what a shame.
    They were acting perfectly legally and responding exactly to the strong incentives put in place by successive governments. Blame the governments for the wonky tax system, not them for being tilted by it.
    Shall I cut an onion ? They won’t starve.
    Some of them earn very little.
    Enough to afford an accountant though..
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    fox327 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    fox327 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ABZ said:

    On reflection, I think we should not expect a peak but rather a plateau. This reflects the (stochastic) latency of the disease. A plateau over a week or so should likely then be followed by a fall. I think this is where we are in Italy at present.

    Are you talking about a peak in total number infected, or number of positive daily tests?

    The other problem, of course, in measuring where countries are is the difference in testing regimes. If a country moves to only testing people in hospital with obvious symptoms, then it'll probably see the number of tests decline, and the number of positives decline. Yet that masks underlying deterioration.

    To my mind the evidence of getting CV-19 under control in a country is when you get the combination of (a) rising numbers of tests, and (b) falling number of positives.

    Which is where Italy was yesterday - all time peak in numbers of administered tests, sixth highest number of positives.

    Hopefully today will see another peak in number of administered tests, and the number of positives drop again.

    It will also be instructive to see where we are with Lombardy and Veneto, as they are 3-4 days ahead of the rest of Italy.
    The medium-term aim won't be a return to track and trace though. Suppression measures will need to continue for a long time.
    Yeah, but suppression measures will be a lot less than 18 months of total lockdown.
    This is a crisis that we could see coming but failed to prepare for. New cases are bound to plateau or reduce before the end of the year. Once they have come down the lockdown will be eased. This is also an economic crisis and the government will reopen part of the economy at some stage. Then it will have to start to reduce the financial support that it is giving to people and businesses who have been affected. We really need a vaccine as soon as possible and I hope the government will support this as it cannot cost as much as the shutdown.
    In all probability, new cases will peak in the next three weeks.
    New cases might peak but they could then plateau and not reduce to a low level so the economy will have to remain locked down. I doubt that is sustainable for more than two years at the most. The problem we have is that an effective vaccine may not be available soon enough.

    One possibility is that a vaccine is made that halves the sickness caused by the virus but this would still be unacceptable to many people. Even than might not be achievable. I think we need to consider the possibility that there will be no way to suppress this virus long term. It will be interesting to see what happens in countries such as Iran, Sweden, the Netherlands and the US where a full lockdown may never be implemented. This could give us a better idea of what we are dealing with.
    Lockdown isn’t lasting 2 months never mind 2 years.
This discussion has been closed.