Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
Absolutely. Everyone knows that we don't need any of the businesses that make this country what it is. Everyone knows that the best way to reword the grafters who have picked themselves up by their bootstraps to build businesses that provide not only critical services but also jobs is to tell them to Do One.
I would say its the Tory way but I know that most PB Tories have already disowned you.
Dentist news. The dentist texted a reminder of my appointment tomorrow. That was half an hour or so ago. The dentist has now texted that HMG has ordered dentists to cancel non-urgent appointments!
This is a flaming nuisance because in a couple of months' time I will be made redundant and that means my employer will stop paying to get my teeth fixed.
#BigPicture.
If Rishi is browsing this site during his no doubt ample downtime, can he please stop firms making people redundant until the end of this crisis, which can be operationally defined as a couple of months after dentists reopen for business?
On the plus side, it frees up more masks for doctors.
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
Trouble with that approach is everyone thinks they are exceptions. Down that road lies madness.
I think one problem is that official (or quasi-official) guidance is shifting constantly as the egg-heads get more evidence from day to day. Don't go out but don't stockpile so you need to go shopping more often. Visit and help elderly neighbours but without actually visiting them or going out. Visit national parks to escape crowded cities, but don't. We saw last week even the Prime Minister got it wrong and right in the same sentence. I am not sure we should be quick to condemn.
way too many self-appointed experts in the media - always seeking to exploit and disrupt. We see it every day on Twitter and among the hacks at the pressers.
They're not 'seeking to exploit and disrupt' at all (with the possible exception of Peter Hitchens as that's his trope). They are seeking rigorous answers to tough questions. They're doing their job and thank god for them. As we now know, if Imperial College scientists hadn't dropped a stone in the Government's alleged complacency, which was then picked up by Sky News and The Guardian (erroneously called 'disgraceful' by someone on here) we would be in an even more parlous state than we currently find ourselves.
Imperial under Neil Ferguson were the ones providing the expertise on which the Government policy was based from the start. The fact that they then changed their advise and the Government followed what they said is nothing to do with the Media. You are doing exactly the same scandalous and frankly dangerous thing that the media doing which is making out every change of policy to be a Government U-turn rather than a result of changes in advise.
So yes the journalists - and you - are indeed being disgraceful.
Genuine question, was it ever Imperial College's advice to go for 'herd immunity'?
From what I have seen reading through their released documents they hadn't phrased it in that way and definitely not made it explicit. I certainly saw the Chief Scientific Advisor in interview referring to Herd Immunity explicitly so am more inclined to think that was his interpretation rather than a recommendation from Imperial.
I am not a doctor but that sounds extremely unlikely to me. The idea that you get the virus worse because you are exposed to a lot of it just feels wrong. There is obviously a critical level of exposure which allows enough threads of the virus to enter your system and self replicate there to the point you have infection. Once you are exposed to that level of exposure your own system takes over and eventually you will have enough virus in you to start shedding it in your sneezes, mucous and sweat allowing the virus to pass on.
Clearly if you are in a large group you are more likely to be exposed to that critical mass of virus. But does more make a difference? I really have my doubts.
I'm with you on this. Don't know how you feel about that, but I am.
At the time of infection you can "get it bad" as opposed to "getting it good", regardless of factors such as immune system, age and general health?
No, I don't like that. It sounds like bollocks.
But of course I will accept it as true if there is an expert consensus that it is.
Why on earth would I be concerned about you agreeing? I very much enjoy your posts even when I don't agree with them.
I can see the point that @MaxPB and @Philip_Thompson are making about getting more of the virus means that the base from which multiplication starts is higher giving your body less time to develop the anti-bodies. I concede its plausible. But I don't think anything linked to this morning has supported or not supported it.
I don't have a link but I heard this being explained by a doctor being interviewed yesterday on the radio.
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
But the consequences are not.
I would assume that Cornwall, for example, has a health service designed for the local population plus occasional hordes of feral teenagers, not for an influx of people living in second homes on a longterm basis
Yes indeed. I can see the consequences are bad, and am broadly opposed to second homes in any case. But HMG is wasting a lot of money on health service planning if it turns out it can be done by ordinary folk on their days off. Intentions good; consequences bad.
A problem is - what is a second home?
For example, a number of people have followed this pattern : A couple living in London, initially. Because of the housing situation, they buy a house outside the commute zone - Cornwall is a bit far, but some have done this. They keep a 1 bed flat in London. Camp there during the week for work, head to the house on weekends - but often WFH at the house, if they can. The idea is that when a family starts, they will live full time in the house.... but will keep the London flat for staying over for work, socialising etc.
So the policy contains hidden genius in supporting 'stay at home'?
I wouldn't call it hidden or genius. But it looks to be one of the objectives. If you're a non essential business who cannot trade with everyone WFH, please cease for a while, keep your staff, claim the 80%. Please do not fire people and shut down for good, and please do not try and keep trading and getting people to come into work.
Exactlly - the quote from one person I know in a very senior management position for multiple businesses is "Thank f&*k for that - we can send people home".
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
But the consequences are not.
I would assume that Cornwall, for example, has a health service designed for the local population plus occasional hordes of feral teenagers, not for an influx of people living in second homes on a longterm basis
Yes indeed. I can see the consequences are bad, and am broadly opposed to second homes in any case. But HMG is wasting a lot of money on health service planning if it turns out it can be done by ordinary folk on their days off. Intentions good; consequences bad.
A problem is - what is a second home?
For example, a number of people have followed this pattern : A couple living in London, initially. Because of the housing situation, they buy a house outside the commute zone - Cornwall is a bit far, but some have done this. They keep a 1 bed flat in London. Camp there during the week for work, head to the house on weekends - but often WFH at the house, if they can. The idea is that when a family starts, they will live full time in the house.... but will keep the London flat for staying over for work, socialising etc.
Which is the second home?
Won't you have declared that for Council Tax purposes? Its also probably not the one where you registered with a GP.
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
But the consequences are not.
I would assume that Cornwall, for example, has a health service designed for the local population plus occasional hordes of feral teenagers, not for an influx of people living in second homes on a longterm basis
It must be quite hard to know what constitutes the true population of Cornwall (and therefore to plan appropriate health service capacity) given the fluctuations between winter and summer.
Yes, but I doubt they plan for full occupancy of second homes all the time.
I suspect they have a base line capacity for residents and then surge capacity / extra A&E for tourists. That's not what you would need if you were running at summer occupancy levels all year round
They don't have capacity for either, but you are sort of right - holiday season appointments are highly vulnerable to last minute cancellations. They either bring their heart attacks down here with them or injure themselves falling off cliffs.
Are the Chinese handbag workers of Tuscany the immigrants with HIV du jour? Certainly seems to be the same type of folk obsessing about them.
With the same type of folk wanting inconvenient information kept quiet.
First Tuscany isn't Lombardy.
Second, what proportion of people on international flights from China to Italy are: 1) Business travellers 2) Tourists 3) Students 4) Immigrants (legal or not)
I would guess 4) is heavily outnumbered by each of 1), 2) and 3)
It's not as if people working in a sweatshop in Prato are commuting back and forth from Wuhan.
Milan seems to have a very significant Chinese population as well.
But aside from the effect on Coronovirus there is the greater issue of the exploitation of immigrant labour to enrich businesses and maintain western middle class lifestyles.
What is interesting is the way the structure of the problem is not exposed - remember the cockle pickers who drowned? The business they were working for was Chinese run and controlled. Immigrants who don't speak the local language are perfect fodder for such exploitation. Historically, round the world, this is a common pattern - immigrants exploited by their own ethnic/national group.
There are several small building companies in London, for example, that would only hire from the home country - and would bar people who spoke English. This allowed them to brutally exploit their workforce.
And I'd say its likely that the more corrupt and tolerant of organised crime a country is the more likely it is to be home to such exploitation of immigrants.
That Tweet is a little bit misleading - he doesn't say that austerity wasn't necessary.
It's on Fox. Right or wrong, he would say that wouldn't he, otherwise he wouldn't have been allowed to say it on its platform.
Yeah, I wouldn't take much notice. To be honest, I'm not sure what's true of the UK is true of the USA. The Americans seem to be fine whatever happens (didn't the dollar get stronger when their credit rating was downgraded?). That might not last forever, though.
I am not a doctor but that sounds extremely unlikely to me. The idea that you get the virus worse because you are exposed to a lot of it just feels wrong. There is obviously a critical level of exposure which allows enough threads of the virus to enter your system and self replicate there to the point you have infection. Once you are exposed to that level of exposure your own system takes over and eventually you will have enough virus in you to start shedding it in your sneezes, mucous and sweat allowing the virus to pass on.
Clearly if you are in a large group you are more likely to be exposed to that critical mass of virus. But does more make a difference? I really have my doubts.
I'm with you on this. Don't know how you feel about that, but I am.
At the time of infection you can "get it bad" as opposed to "getting it good", regardless of factors such as immune system, age and general health?
No, I don't like that. It sounds like bollocks.
But of course I will accept it as true if there is an expert consensus that it is.
Why on earth would I be concerned about you agreeing? I very much enjoy your posts even when I don't agree with them.
I can see the point that @MaxPB and @Philip_Thompson are making about getting more of the virus means that the base from which multiplication starts is higher giving your body less time to develop the anti-bodies. I concede its plausible. But I don't think anything linked to this morning has supported or not supported it.
I don't have a link but I heard this being explained by a doctor being interviewed yesterday on the radio.
Here's another paper on this subject for the SARS coronavirus:
Development of a Dose-Response Model for SARS Coronavirus https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1539-6924.2010.01427.x In order to develop a dose-response model for SARS coronavirus (SARS-CoV), the pooled data sets for infection of transgenic mice susceptible to SARS-CoV and infection of mice with murine hepatitis virus strain 1, which may be a clinically relevant model of SARS, were fit to beta-Poisson and exponential models with the maximum likelihood method. The ex- ponential model (k = 4.1 × l02) could describe the dose-response relationship of the pooled data sets. The beta-Poisson model did not provide a statistically significant improvement in fit. With the exponential model, the infectivity of SARS-CoV was calculated and compared with those of other coronaviruses. The does of SARS-CoV corresponding to 10% and 50% responses (illness) were estimated at 43 and 280 PFU, respectively. Its estimated infectivity was comparable to that of HCoV-229E, known as an agent of human common cold, and also similar to those of some animal coronaviruses belonging to the same genetic group. More- over, the exponential model was applied to the analysis of the epidemiological data of SARS outbreak that occurred at an apartment complex in Hong Kong in 2003. The estimated dose of SARS-CoV for apartment residents during the outbreak, which was back-calculated from the reported number of cases, ranged from 16 to 160 PFU/person, depending on the floor. The exponential model developed here is the sole dose-response model for SARS-CoV at the present and would enable us to understand the possibility for reemergence of SARS...
No doubt similar work has been done for Covid 19. I haven't found anything, but it is reportedly unusually infectious.
Deserted roads this morning so I roasted the rear tyres on the 'Big Turbo' 330D in a drift frenzy. The clutch now smells of tinned fish so I may have spanked that too.
Someone else on LBC right now. Underlying health conditions, in a vulnerable group, being told by their employer that if they don't come to work they aren't getting paid. Aren't eligible for even SSP either...
What about the 80% under the Covid Job Retention Scheme?
Presume that only applies if the employer decides to claim it. Suspect some employers may prefer just to shut up shop.
1. The employee is Not Sick 2. The employee is not self-isolating because someone in their family has symptoms 3. The employer is unfeeling scum
Again, the government could legally mandate employers to act and has wiff waffed and waffled in not doing so. When Sunak unveils the 3rd attempt at a budget in a few days to announce what they are going to do both for the vast cracks in what they tried to announce and for all the self employed etc etc perhaps they will fix this.
To be fair they are under immense pressure.
Announce the principle and fix the issues is better that waiting until it is perfect and seeing a lot of people sacked in the interim
Are you there Gideonwise? How are you and your wife doing?
Yes. That was a disturbing post last night. Positive update would be good to hear.
I heard from Gideonwise later last night and he said that the symptoms had eased. Hopefully he will be along later to confirm that himself.
That would be good to hear. Similarly positive news from all our other PBers with family under the cosh.
Two of my grandchildren now have the dry coughs and high temperatures. Their father, my son-in-law, felt ill two days ago but now has no symptoms except he has entirely lost his sense of smell and taste. My daughter is trying to keep her third child who is asthmatic isolated from the others. The NHS radiologist who lives next door them has the virus and had difficulty breathing last night. Not good news. I think it is very widespread, much more than the official estimates.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
But the consequences are not.
I would assume that Cornwall, for example, has a health service designed for the local population plus occasional hordes of feral teenagers, not for an influx of people living in second homes on a longterm basis
Yes indeed. I can see the consequences are bad, and am broadly opposed to second homes in any case. But HMG is wasting a lot of money on health service planning if it turns out it can be done by ordinary folk on their days off. Intentions good; consequences bad.
A problem is - what is a second home?
For example, a number of people have followed this pattern : A couple living in London, initially. Because of the housing situation, they buy a house outside the commute zone - Cornwall is a bit far, but some have done this. They keep a 1 bed flat in London. Camp there during the week for work, head to the house on weekends - but often WFH at the house, if they can. The idea is that when a family starts, they will live full time in the house.... but will keep the London flat for staying over for work, socialising etc.
Which is the second home?
Easy Cornwall
I would be willing to bet that many locals in Cornwall would have a differing view.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
Are the Chinese handbag workers of Tuscany the immigrants with HIV du jour? Certainly seems to be the same type of folk obsessing about them.
With the same type of folk wanting inconvenient information kept quiet.
First Tuscany isn't Lombardy.
Second, what proportion of people on international flights from China to Italy are: 1) Business travellers 2) Tourists 3) Students 4) Immigrants (legal or not)
I would guess 4) is heavily outnumbered by each of 1), 2) and 3)
It's not as if people working in a sweatshop in Prato are commuting back and forth from Wuhan.
Milan seems to have a very significant Chinese population as well.
But aside from the effect on Coronovirus there is the greater issue of the exploitation of immigrant labour to enrich businesses and maintain western middle class lifestyles.
Yes, and of course it's possible that cases were brought by people connected to immigrant populations, I just haven't heard of many cases compared to the numbers connected to other business travel and tourism. So it doesn't seem logical to blame immigrants for spreading Covid-19.
Certainly the immigrant communities might be a small factor regarding Coronovirus.
But at least we're now wiser about the exploitation behind the 'Made in Italy' designer label.
His tweets are so often in CAPS and written in very basic language. It's like the intended audience are of primary school level. Which of course they are. His "base". These are quite primitive people. So in fact, although we sneer, his comms are in a sense very smart. They have the added advantage (to his base) of appearing to be written and typed out in a rush of blood by the Maximum Moron himself. They reek of authenticity. But are they? I do wonder. It would not surprise me if there is a team doing it all. He gives them points and they turn them (most carefully) into "Trumpy" looking tweets and publish. There's a skill there, if this is what does happen.
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
But the consequences are not.
I would assume that Cornwall, for example, has a health service designed for the local population plus occasional hordes of feral teenagers, not for an influx of people living in second homes on a longterm basis
Yes indeed. I can see the consequences are bad, and am broadly opposed to second homes in any case. But HMG is wasting a lot of money on health service planning if it turns out it can be done by ordinary folk on their days off. Intentions good; consequences bad.
A problem is - what is a second home?
For example, a number of people have followed this pattern : A couple living in London, initially. Because of the housing situation, they buy a house outside the commute zone - Cornwall is a bit far, but some have done this. They keep a 1 bed flat in London. Camp there during the week for work, head to the house on weekends - but often WFH at the house, if they can. The idea is that when a family starts, they will live full time in the house.... but will keep the London flat for staying over for work, socialising etc.
Which is the second home?
Easy Cornwall
I would be willing to bet that many locals in Cornwall would have a differing view.
Deserted roads this morning so I roasted the rear tyres on the 'Big Turbo' 330D in a drift frenzy. The clutch now smells of tinned fish so I may have spanked that too.
Grand Theft Auto? I’ve bought a PlayStation as well!
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
The media has always been partisan, 'The Independent' tried for a while...
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
But the consequences are not.
I would assume that Cornwall, for example, has a health service designed for the local population plus occasional hordes of feral teenagers, not for an influx of people living in second homes on a longterm basis
Yes indeed. I can see the consequences are bad, and am broadly opposed to second homes in any case. But HMG is wasting a lot of money on health service planning if it turns out it can be done by ordinary folk on their days off. Intentions good; consequences bad.
A problem is - what is a second home?
For example, a number of people have followed this pattern : A couple living in London, initially. Because of the housing situation, they buy a house outside the commute zone - Cornwall is a bit far, but some have done this. They keep a 1 bed flat in London. Camp there during the week for work, head to the house on weekends - but often WFH at the house, if they can. The idea is that when a family starts, they will live full time in the house.... but will keep the London flat for staying over for work, socialising etc.
Which is the second home?
Won't you have declared that for Council Tax purposes? Its also probably not the one where you registered with a GP.
Alot of people try and register for a GP close to work. Even if you have registered the "country" address as your main home - does that make it the reality, as opposed to a legal fiction?
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
But the consequences are not.
I would assume that Cornwall, for example, has a health service designed for the local population plus occasional hordes of feral teenagers, not for an influx of people living in second homes on a longterm basis
Yes indeed. I can see the consequences are bad, and am broadly opposed to second homes in any case. But HMG is wasting a lot of money on health service planning if it turns out it can be done by ordinary folk on their days off. Intentions good; consequences bad.
A problem is - what is a second home?
For example, a number of people have followed this pattern : A couple living in London, initially. Because of the housing situation, they buy a house outside the commute zone - Cornwall is a bit far, but some have done this. They keep a 1 bed flat in London. Camp there during the week for work, head to the house on weekends - but often WFH at the house, if they can. The idea is that when a family starts, they will live full time in the house.... but will keep the London flat for staying over for work, socialising etc.
Which is the second home?
Easy Cornwall
I would be willing to bet that many locals in Cornwall would have a differing view.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
They won't be getting much help from the government and then will be expected to pay higher taxes in future for help other people are getting. It seems very unfair.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I will enjoy your u-turn on this.
I have already said if we go to full lockdown a UBI might be needed for that specific period. However we are not yet in full lockdown and many self employed plumbers, electricians, gardeners, accountants (working from home), florists etc are still working and earning an income at present.
Plus of course the self employed tend to earn through cash in hand, not a wage anyway and in any case can still apply for government loans now
From Facebook (so can't vouch for its veracity) but intuitively makes sense:
“Why do we need to shut places where people group?
Remember this: VIRAL LOAD
There will be a lot about this. Why is it important? With this virus, the amount of virus in your blood at first infection directly relates to the severity of the illness you will suffer. This isn’t unusual - HIV management is all about reducing viral load to keep people alive longer. BUT it’s very important in COVID-19.
[snip]
If I sit with one person and catch this virus, I get a small viral load. My immune system will start to fight it and by the time the virus starts replicating, I’m ready to kill it.
No medicines will help this process meaningfully hence there is no “cure” for this virus. All we can do is support you with a ventilator and hope your immune system can catch up fast enough.
If I sit in the same room with six people, all shedding I get six times the initial dose. The rise in viral load is faster than my immune system can cope with and it is overrun. I then become critically ill and need me (or an ITU/HDU specialist) to fix it instead of just being at home and being ok in the end.
REMEMBER: THINK ABOUT VIRAL LOAD
Quite confused.
You don't get "viral load" from inhaling more virus.
Viral load is a measure of how fast the virus multiples in the blood stream (way way quicker than inhaling more virus particles will impact). In any event our tests are positive/negative at the moment and can't measure viral load.
That being said, they are right that being in a room with a lot of sufferers will increase the probability of catching the virus. However, it won't impact the severity of the disease
(and - on most occasions - when they say "viral load" they actually mean "viral shedding")
Thank you - as I noted, I couldn't count for its veracity.
To be clear, it doesn't really matter whether you are initially infected with one virus or a hundred thousand? So in the case of viruses the dose does not make the poison?
It's the wrong measure.
In theory it only takes one virus cell to enter your body for you to be infected.
If you are in a room with lots of infected people you will have more encounters with virus cells increasing the probability of infection.
But once it is in the body it is in the body. Whether it is 1 cell or 1,000 or 10,000 doesn't make a difference given the speed of viral replication once in the body.
(And as most people don't initially have antibodies you can't argue that "if it's only one cell then the body can fight it off more easily")
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
Trouble with that approach is everyone thinks they are exceptions. Down that road lies madness.
I think one problem is that official (or quasi-official) guidance is shifting constantly as the egg-heads get more evidence from day to day. Don't go out but don't stockpile so you need to go shopping more often. Visit and help elderly neighbours but without actually visiting them or going out. Visit national parks to escape crowded cities, but don't. We saw last week even the Prime Minister got it wrong and right in the same sentence. I am not sure we should be quick to condemn.
way too many self-appointed experts in the media - always seeking to exploit and disrupt. We see it every day on Twitter and among the hacks at the pressers.
They're not 'seeking to exploit and disrupt' at all (with the possible exception of Peter Hitchens as that's his trope). They are seeking rigorous answers to tough questions. They're doing their job and thank god for them. As we now know, if Imperial College scientists hadn't dropped a stone in the Government's alleged complacency, which was then picked up by Sky News and The Guardian (erroneously called 'disgraceful' by someone on here) we would be in an even more parlous state than we currently find ourselves.
Imperial under Neil Ferguson were the ones providing the expertise on which the Government policy was based from the start. The fact that they then changed their advise and the Government followed what they said is nothing to do with the Media. You are doing exactly the same scandalous and frankly dangerous thing that the media doing which is making out every change of policy to be a Government U-turn rather than a result of changes in advise.
So yes the journalists - and you - are indeed being disgraceful.
Genuine question, was it ever Imperial College's advice to go for 'herd immunity'?
From what I have seen reading through their released documents they hadn't phrased it in that way and definitely not made it explicit. I certainly saw the Chief Scientific Advisor in interview referring to Herd Immunity explicitly so am more inclined to think that was his interpretation rather than a recommendation from Imperial.
So that early important policy at least was not on advice from Imperial.
I've also officially gone into sick leave today after chatting with HR and my own line manager. Given the market volatility I didn't want to be involved in decision making until I've got rid of the fever at least.
Exactlly - the quote from one person I know in a very senior management position for multiple businesses is "Thank f&*k for that - we can send people home".
Yes.
@Charles - this is the (1) of my 2 scenarios we were discussing the other day.
And the (2) was that some businesses (not many but some) who actually could afford to ride out the epi with everyone WFH - and were planning to - will now instead put them on furlough and claim the 80%.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I will enjoy your u-turn on this.
HYUFD is a classic Tory, as he'll defend the status quo with every fibre of his being - or rather every status quo in succession.
My dad brought me a care package and left it in the hallway this morning. My PS4 and some assorted food items. My partner was very glad to have it as she won't need to deal with the scrum at Waitrose on Finchley Road. We're isolating from each other because she's asthmatic, I'm hoping she'll stay safe at least until I'm better so if she gets it then I'll be able to look after her.
We've also delayed having kids until this is over, she doesn't want to be pregnant while this is going on given her existing risk factor.
From Facebook (so can't vouch for its veracity) but intuitively makes sense:
“Why do we need to shut places where people group?
Remember this: VIRAL LOAD
There will be a lot about this. Why is it important? With this virus, the amount of virus in your blood at first infection directly relates to the severity of the illness you will suffer. This isn’t unusual - HIV management is all about reducing viral load to keep people alive longer. BUT it’s very important in COVID-19.
[snip]
If I sit with one person and catch this virus, I get a small viral load. My immune system will start to fight it and by the time the virus starts replicating, I’m ready to kill it.
No medicines will help this process meaningfully hence there is no “cure” for this virus. All we can do is support you with a ventilator and hope your immune system can catch up fast enough.
If I sit in the same room with six people, all shedding I get six times the initial dose. The rise in viral load is faster than my immune system can cope with and it is overrun. I then become critically ill and need me (or an ITU/HDU specialist) to fix it instead of just being at home and being ok in the end.
REMEMBER: THINK ABOUT VIRAL LOAD
Quite confused.
You don't get "viral load" from inhaling more virus.
Viral load is a measure of how fast the virus multiples in the blood stream (way way quicker than inhaling more virus particles will impact). In any event our tests are positive/negative at the moment and can't measure viral load.
That being said, they are right that being in a room with a lot of sufferers will increase the probability of catching the virus. However, it won't impact the severity of the disease
(and - on most occasions - when they say "viral load" they actually mean "viral shedding")
Thank you - as I noted, I couldn't count for its veracity.
To be clear, it doesn't really matter whether you are initially infected with one virus or a hundred thousand? So in the case of viruses the dose does not make the poison?
It's the wrong measure.
In theory it only takes one virus cell to enter your body for you to be infected.
If you are in a room with lots of infected people you will have more encounters with virus cells increasing the probability of infection.
But once it is in the body it is in the body. Whether it is 1 cell or 1,000 or 10,000 doesn't make a difference given the speed of viral replication once in the body.
(And as most people don't initially have antibodies you can't argue that "if it's only one cell then the body can fight it off more easily")
That is NOT what the Doctor I heard on the radio yesterday was saying. They were making the point that you have to try to minimise the load you get as it DOES make a difference once in the body. If you get a small dose to infect you it starts to replicate and your body can start to fight it off - if you get a large does to infect you it can make you critically ill sooner because your body can't cope.
That they were saying is why if you get ill then you must isolate even from your own household as much as possible, not share a towel etc - as even if its likely you might infect them either way you want to not overwhelm them with the infection before they start producing their own antibodies.
I watch and listen to the Fake News, CNN, MSDNC, ABC, NBC, CBS, some of FOX (desperately & foolishly pleading to be politically correct), the @nytimes, & the @washingtonpost, and all I see is hatred of me at any cost. Don’t they understand that they are destroying themselves?
8:28 pm - 22 Mar 2020
A cabinet worth having would already have removed him from office. But anyone who had the character to make a decision would never have taken a job in the first place.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
The government has not nationalised the railways. BEFORE: Passenger rail operations owned by the state, let on an exclusive fixed term contract to a private operator to increasingly run services and rolling stock dictated by the owner. Revenue risk largely taken by the state under "cap and collar" clauses where losses above a particular level sees the contract terminated. AFTER: Passenger rail operations owned by the state, contracted to a private operator on a management contract to operate services dictated by the owner. Revenue risk taken by the state.
For all the flap the likes of Virgin, First etc never owned the rail operations they ran. As they don't own them their ownership cannot be reclaimed by the state. Its great news that the failed experiment of competitive tendering has been scrapped - hopefully the vast increase in operating costs can now be completely removed and the saving used to cover some of the inevitable losses.
Nearly treble the passengers. Much higher investment. Better performance. Better passenger ratings. Safer.
And much of the remaining issues are actually down to the parts of the industry which are still nationalised.
From Facebook (so can't vouch for its veracity) but intuitively makes sense:
“Why do we need to shut places where people group?
Remember this: VIRAL LOAD
There will be a lot about this. Why is it important? With this virus, the amount of virus in your blood at first infection directly relates to the severity of the illness you will suffer. This isn’t unusual - HIV management is all about reducing viral load to keep people alive longer. BUT it’s very important in COVID-19.
[snip]
If I sit with one person and catch this virus, I get a small viral load. My immune system will start to fight it and by the time the virus starts replicating, I’m ready to kill it.
No medicines will help this process meaningfully hence there is no “cure” for this virus. All we can do is support you with a ventilator and hope your immune system can catch up fast enough.
If I sit in the same room with six people, all shedding I get six times the initial dose. The rise in viral load is faster than my immune system can cope with and it is overrun. I then become critically ill and need me (or an ITU/HDU specialist) to fix it instead of just being at home and being ok in the end.
REMEMBER: THINK ABOUT VIRAL LOAD
Quite confused.
You don't get "viral load" from inhaling more virus.
Viral load is a measure of how fast the virus multiples in the blood stream (way way quicker than inhaling more virus particles will impact). In any event our tests are positive/negative at the moment and can't measure viral load.
That being said, they are right that being in a room with a lot of sufferers will increase the probability of catching the virus. However, it won't impact the severity of the disease
(and - on most occasions - when they say "viral load" they actually mean "viral shedding")
Thank you - as I noted, I couldn't count for its veracity.
To be clear, it doesn't really matter whether you are initially infected with one virus or a hundred thousand? So in the case of viruses the dose does not make the poison?
It's the wrong measure.
In theory it only takes one virus cell to enter your body for you to be infected.
If you are in a room with lots of infected people you will have more encounters with virus cells increasing the probability of infection.
But once it is in the body it is in the body. Whether it is 1 cell or 1,000 or 10,000 doesn't make a difference given the speed of viral replication once in the body.
(And as most people don't initially have antibodies you can't argue that "if it's only one cell then the body can fight it off more easily")
That is NOT what the Doctor I heard on the radio yesterday was saying. They were making the point that you have to try to minimise the load you get as it DOES make a difference once in the body. If you get a small dose to infect you it starts to replicate and your body can start to fight it off - if you get a large does to infect you it can make you critically ill sooner because your body can't cope.
That they were saying is why if you get ill then you must isolate even from your own household as much as possible, not share a towel etc - as even if its likely you might infect them either way you want to not overwhelm them with the infection before they start producing their own antibodies.
Yes, this is the advice we're following at home. Now using separate bathrooms, she's in the en suite and I'm in the general one. Limits chance of crossover.
From Facebook (so can't vouch for its veracity) but intuitively makes sense:
“Why do we need to shut places where people group?
Remember this: VIRAL LOAD
There will be a lot about this. Why is it important? With this virus, the amount of virus in your blood at first infection directly relates to the severity of the illness you will suffer. This isn’t unusual - HIV management is all about reducing viral load to keep people alive longer. BUT it’s very important in COVID-19.
[snip]
If I sit with one person and catch this virus, I get a small viral load. My immune system will start to fight it and by the time the virus starts replicating, I’m ready to kill it.
No medicines will help this process meaningfully hence there is no “cure” for this virus. All we can do is support you with a ventilator and hope your immune system can catch up fast enough.
If I sit in the same room with six people, all shedding I get six times the initial dose. The rise in viral load is faster than my immune system can cope with and it is overrun. I then become critically ill and need me (or an ITU/HDU specialist) to fix it instead of just being at home and being ok in the end.
REMEMBER: THINK ABOUT VIRAL LOAD
Quite confused.
You don't get "viral load" from inhaling more virus.
Viral load is a measure of how fast the virus multiples in the blood stream (way way quicker than inhaling more virus particles will impact). In any event our tests are positive/negative at the moment and can't measure viral load.
That being said, they are right that being in a room with a lot of sufferers will increase the probability of catching the virus. However, it won't impact the severity of the disease
(and - on most occasions - when they say "viral load" they actually mean "viral shedding")
Thank you - as I noted, I couldn't count for its veracity.
To be clear, it doesn't really matter whether you are initially infected with one virus or a hundred thousand? So in the case of viruses the dose does not make the poison?
It's the wrong measure.
In theory it only takes one virus cell to enter your body for you to be infected.
If you are in a room with lots of infected people you will have more encounters with virus cells increasing the probability of infection.
But once it is in the body it is in the body. Whether it is 1 cell or 1,000 or 10,000 doesn't make a difference given the speed of viral replication once in the body.
(And as most people don't initially have antibodies you can't argue that "if it's only one cell then the body can fight it off more easily")
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
Ok, good points - maybe we can agree that the government would have to compensate if it DOES stop plumbers from working (as per my example)?
I returned to an old Dragon's Dogma save the other day. Bloody weird having an RPG with fantastic combat but ropey dialogue/story.
Thanks, and to everyone else too.
I'm about to do the same lol. Straight to BBI for me. I have yet to complete the main game. The story is pants and the enemies aren't challenging enough beyond level 30 in the main game. In BBI it's challenging until at least level 80. The final boss until level 120 if you don't have item boosts.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
We have an ensuite rebuild booked, work supposed to be carried out in 2 weeks. This would have involved a couple of contractors in our house / bedroom every day for a week. Unsurprisingly we've postponed it.
Amazing that the Wickes website says "We want to minimise disruption as much as possible, therefore installations are continuing as planned. If you have an installation booked you will be contacted to ensure it is still safe for the work to go ahead. Your installer will agree any specific arrangements with you when they are on site and everyone's welfare will remain our priority throughout the installation."
Are they high? Its not safe for McDonalds to offer takeaway from a drive-in window, but its safe for people to go house to house building kitchens and bathrooms?
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
I saw my plumber last week. He said he had plenty of work and was booked up for months. He recommended some precautionary work on the boiler and it didn't sound like I was going to get an appointment for a while. Thursday his assistant phones and suddenly there is lots of availability. So clearly such tradespeople are now getting lots of cancellations
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
Ok, good points - maybe we can agree that the government would have to compensate if it DOES stop plumbers from working (as per my example)?
I thought they had announced a scheme for the self-employed based on their previously reported earnings too?
Won't help the self-employed who take cash in hand and report no earnings to the government so they don't have to pay taxes, but that's karma.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I will enjoy your u-turn on this.
I have already said if we go to full lockdown a UBI might be needed for that specific period. However we are not yet in full lockdown and many self employed plumbers, electricians, gardeners, accountants (working from home), florists etc are still working and earning an income at present.
Plus of course the self employed tend to earn through cash in hand, not a wage anyway and in any case can still apply for government loans now
First all the last paragraph is somewhat of a slur. Many self-employed tradesmen I know keep their books properly. You could, I suppose, argue that a barber gets cash. Secondly, this has appeared on the BBC Business site 'Self employed & we need to travel but wife is on the stay at home list. Not possible to carry on working. Johnson has offered SSP at £90 a week ... Just our direct debits are several times that a month.
But if I we worked for a restaurant we'd get 80% of our salary covered.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
I saw my plumber last week. He said he had plenty of work and was booked up for months. He recommended some precautionary work on the boiler and it didn't sound like I was going to get an appointment for a while. Thursday his assistant phones and suddenly there is lots of availability. So clearly such tradespeople are now getting lots of cancellations
Some but clearly they are still working as shown by the fact he is going to work on your boiler
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
Ok, good points - maybe we can agree that the government would have to compensate if it DOES stop plumbers from working (as per my example)?
I thought they had announced a scheme for the self-employed based on their previously reported earnings too?
Won't help the self-employed who take cash in hand and report no earnings to the government so they don't have to pay taxes, but that's karma.
No, but it's expected that Rishi will do something like that today. Probably CIS based for construction workers.
Mr. Max, I'm around level 55 now. Haven't got far at all with Bitterblack (I'll either make a new save or go for it in the New Game+). Must admit I stopped, despite reaching the Everfall, because I was getting crushed by a beholder type creature. Encountered other bosses which are challenging but killable.
I'd strongly advocate finishing the story. The premise and ending (I believe the ending can vary) are very good, but you're entirely right about it going missing for almost the entire game in between.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
So when we had a labour government, that many people thought were too much of a nanny state, the people who are ignoring govt advice now would have taken it?
I don’t think so to be honest, but it’s an angle to get at Boris whilst looking concerned. There’s nothing else to do I suppose
I stumbled across the site in 2005....I was fuming with the negativity of the Michael Howard campaign and wanted to find out what odds were on the Tories for that election, and googled "betting on politics".....and then I encountered this site and found a group of Tories whom I have baited to a greater or lesser extent ever since, often I have to say with a tongue in my cheek.....
That said...it has helped me win some money....not as much as it should have. The highlight was the night of the 2006 Italian election when Prodi pipsqueaked Berlusconi...everyone was coming onto pbCOM for info....that is when I really knew that this site was the real deal, and had serious people posting...
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
Ok, good points - maybe we can agree that the government would have to compensate if it DOES stop plumbers from working (as per my example)?
A lot of people are stopping contacts with the self-employed and small businesses. My mother, for example, who is 77 and has high blood pressure, has asked the woman who does her feet and the bloke who was fixing her staircase that she cannot have contact with them while this emergency is on. I doubt she is an isolated (geddit??) example.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
Ironically, it seems to me that plenty of remainers are ignoring the experts at the moment.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
Ok, good points - maybe we can agree that the government would have to compensate if it DOES stop plumbers from working (as per my example)?
If we go to full lockdown yes, as I said then a temporary UBI might be needed but we are not there yet
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I will enjoy your u-turn on this.
I have already said if we go to full lockdown a UBI might be needed for that specific period. However we are not yet in full lockdown and many self employed plumbers, electricians, gardeners, accountants (working from home), florists etc are still working and earning an income at present.
Plus of course the self employed tend to earn through cash in hand, not a wage anyway and in any case can still apply for government loans now
First all the last paragraph is somewhat of a slur. Many self-employed tradesmen I know keep their books properly. You could, I suppose, argue that a barber gets cash. Secondly, this has appeared on the BBC Business site 'Self employed & we need to travel but wife is on the stay at home list. Not possible to carry on working. Johnson has offered SSP at £90 a week ... Just our direct debits are several times that a month.
But if I we worked for a restaurant we'd get 80% of our salary covered.
How is that fair?'
It isn`t fair. The thing to bear in mind is that it was not designed to be fair. Fairness sailed away a long time ago. This is a bail out to businesses, to avoid mass redundancies.
We had Nando's delivered yesterday for our Mother's Day treat since we weren't able to go out for a meal. A shame its closing but makes sense, delivery is a niche for them.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
Ironically, it seems to me that plenty of remainers are ignoring the experts at the moment.
Happy birthday PB from the most idiotic poster it’s ever had.
Culture
I posted not long ago it’s our liberal/capitalist culture not the science controlling the governments response, and making U.K. response weak and error prone. i was called the most idiotic Poster in PB history! You remember? Changed your mind yet?
The differences around the world is cultural. It’s not the Chinese Plague it’s the wrapped up in consumerism without a conscious awareness of what your lives and society’s have become plaque. Hence, bang, straight into those countries before they realised what’s hitting them. Hence the panic buying of toilet roles and riots outside supermarkets.
I used the observation of Jerome, on holiday in Germany and eyes open at the cultural differences. There are keep off the grass signs in the park and the Germans are observing em, in complete contrast to London where Jerome lives.
Culture.
You were supreme in your ignorance it was science guiding the government not culture, repeating it over and over brain washing yourselves.
You see now you were wrong, we are a very liberal country, a liberal PM not an authoritarian PM, finding it hard to do the authoritarian thing, thisis the very heart of our culture. And a nations culture has been driving response to this the whole world over, not the science.
This truly will be a good time for working through a lot of games bought on sales. I've got the entire Command Conquer Series picked up for about £5 for a start, and that's not a drop in the bucket. Though currently wasting time with Fallout Shelter and Crash Bandicoot. Good times.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
Ironically, it seems to me that plenty of remainers are ignoring the experts at the moment.
Although the polling indicates that Leavers are more likely to believe that the dangers of coronavirus are being overplayed. Republicans believe the same in the US, apparently.
More seriously, I suspect we will be hearing a lot less of Leavers and Remainers after this is done.
I know that some people have tried to dilute that figure by saying there are far more people with it than currently tested, but then if (entirely plausible) rumours from China are true the same can be said for the number of fatalities.
We can only work with the official statistics we have: 341,524 confirmed cases and 14,747 deaths = 4.3%
Even more reason to heed your very wise words about avoiding social contact.
No, you don't use flawed statistics and assume they are correct, simply because there are no better ones.
Look at Senator Paul. He had no symptoms whatsoever and clearly only got tested because he is a senator and considered important. To his surprise, he is a carrier.
Yep. It seems every rich person who gets the test is a carrier.
Meaning many more people are carriers then the official figures show.
Mr. Max, I'm around level 55 now. Haven't got far at all with Bitterblack (I'll either make a new save or go for it in the New Game+). Must admit I stopped, despite reaching the Everfall, because I was getting crushed by a beholder type creature. Encountered other bosses which are challenging but killable.
I'd strongly advocate finishing the story. The premise and ending (I believe the ending can vary) are very good, but you're entirely right about it going missing for almost the entire game in between.
You should do the BBI challenge on a new profile (don't start a new game, just make a new PSN profile) do everything to get your main pawn then head directly to BBI. Basically the aim of the game is to dodge/avoid getting hit and getting gear/weapons/armour from the purification system.
It's the best way to play the game for me. Super challenging for the first 60-70 levels.
From Facebook (so can't vouch for its veracity) but intuitively makes sense:
“Why do we need to shut places where people group?
Remember this: VIRAL LOAD
There will be a lot about this. Why is it important? With this virus, the amount of virus in your blood at first infection directly relates to the severity of the illness you will suffer. This isn’t unusual - HIV management is all about reducing viral load to keep people alive longer. BUT it’s very important in COVID-19.
[snip]
If I sit with one person and catch this virus, I get a small viral load. My immune system will start to fight it and by the time the virus starts replicating, I’m ready to kill it.
No medicines will help this process meaningfully hence there is no “cure” for this virus. All we can do is support you with a ventilator and hope your immune system can catch up fast enough.
If I sit in the same room with six people, all shedding I get six times the initial dose. The rise in viral load is faster than my immune system can cope with and it is overrun. I then become critically ill and need me (or an ITU/HDU specialist) to fix it instead of just being at home and being ok in the end.
REMEMBER: THINK ABOUT VIRAL LOAD
Quite confused.
You don't get "viral load" from inhaling more virus.
Viral load is a measure of how fast the virus multiples in the blood stream (way way quicker than inhaling more virus particles will impact). In any event our tests are positive/negative at the moment and can't measure viral load.
That being said, they are right that being in a room with a lot of sufferers will increase the probability of catching the virus. However, it won't impact the severity of the disease
(and - on most occasions - when they say "viral load" they actually mean "viral shedding")
Thank you - as I noted, I couldn't count for its veracity.
To be clear, it doesn't really matter whether you are initially infected with one virus or a hundred thousand? So in the case of viruses the dose does not make the poison?
But once it is in the body it is in the body. Whether it is 1 cell or 1,000 or 10,000 doesn't make a difference given the speed of viral replication once in the body.
Typically how quickly does a virus replicate? The implicit theory would appear to be that the more time you have to respond, the better your response - "flattening the curve" in personal terms. Of course if it only makes a few hours difference then its largely academic.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
Ok, good points - maybe we can agree that the government would have to compensate if it DOES stop plumbers from working (as per my example)?
I thought they had announced a scheme for the self-employed based on their previously reported earnings too?
Won't help the self-employed who take cash in hand and report no earnings to the government so they don't have to pay taxes, but that's karma.
No, but it's expected that Rishi will do something like that today. Probably CIS based for construction workers.
Ah OK. I hope they do something based on prior earnings for the self-employed too. Anyone who has been self-employed and paying their taxes properly rather than cash in hand this is their time to be rewarded for their integrity.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
So when we had a labour government, that many people thought were too much of a nanny state, the people who are ignoring govt advice now would have taken it?
I don’t think so to be honest, but it’s an angle to get at Boris whilst looking concerned. There’s nothing else to do I suppose
Yeah, that must be it. There can be no other possible explanation.
I watch and listen to the Fake News, CNN, MSDNC, ABC, NBC, CBS, some of FOX (desperately & foolishly pleading to be politically correct), the @nytimes, & the @washingtonpost, and all I see is hatred of me at any cost. Don’t they understand that they are destroying themselves?
8:28 pm - 22 Mar 2020
A cabinet worth having would already have removed him from office. But anyone who had the character to make a decision would never have taken a job in the first place.
I am convinced there will be a reckoning....US politics will need some kind of catharsis after the trauma of Trump.... which may well involve Trump and his coterie getting indicted and facing serious jail time....
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
I saw my plumber last week. He said he had plenty of work and was booked up for months. He recommended some precautionary work on the boiler and it didn't sound like I was going to get an appointment for a while. Thursday his assistant phones and suddenly there is lots of availability. So clearly such tradespeople are now getting lots of cancellations
Some but clearly they are still working as shown by the fact he is going to work on your boiler
I'm confused. Should we be social distancing or not? Should we be working from home to avoid people being in close contact or not? Should we be going to each other's houses or not?
Its unsafe for Nandos to offer a takeaway business and we should all Listen to the Prime Minister and his Clear Advice. But John the plumber absolutely should be doing his normal business going into house after house after house.
I suspect that HYUFD knows the contradictory nature of his utterances but is enough of a political sociopath not to care. Its just Other People after all, what do peons matter?
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
Ok, good points - maybe we can agree that the government would have to compensate if it DOES stop plumbers from working (as per my example)?
A lot of people are stopping contacts with the self-employed and small businesses. My mother, for example, who is 77 and has high blood pressure, has asked the woman who does her feet and the bloke who was fixing her staircase that she cannot have contact with them while this emergency is on. I doubt she is an isolated (geddit??) example.
I have told my cleaner not to come for the foreseeable. I will carry on paying her, though I know not everyone will be in a position to do that. I am still employed as I am working from home (I’m on Teams at the moment fielding questions about transformers), so I’m not hurting yet. A bit worried about supplies of cat food though.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
Ironically, it seems to me that plenty of remainers are ignoring the experts at the moment.
An expert is someone who agrees with me. If someone I don't like follows an expert, his/her expert isn't an expert.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
Ok, good points - maybe we can agree that the government would have to compensate if it DOES stop plumbers from working (as per my example)?
I thought they had announced a scheme for the self-employed based on their previously reported earnings too?
Won't help the self-employed who take cash in hand and report no earnings to the government so they don't have to pay taxes, but that's karma.
No, but it's expected that Rishi will do something like that today. Probably CIS based for construction workers.
Ah OK. I hope they do something based on prior earnings for the self-employed too. Anyone who has been self-employed and paying their taxes properly rather than cash in hand this is their time to be rewarded for their integrity.
I'm sure it will be, there's no other way to do it.
A lot of people will surely have gone to their second homes in order to self-isolate. Most of us will be too skint even to have second homes, and there are reasons owning second homes is selfish, but surely in this case, intentions were good.
Trouble with that approach is everyone thinks they are exceptions. Down that road lies madness.
I think one problem is that official (or quasi-official) guidance is shifting constantly as the egg-heads get more evidence from day to day. Don't go out but don't stockpile so you need to go shopping more often. Visit and help elderly neighbours but without actually visiting them or going out. Visit national parks to escape crowded cities, but don't. We saw last week even the Prime Minister got it wrong and right in the same sentence. I am not sure we should be quick to condemn.
I'm sorry, but the people in Richmond Park are exactly the sort of people who ought to be able to think for themselves.
Is it not obvious that there is a distinction between going outside for some fresh air and exercise on your own, trying not to get too close to people, and going for afternoon out in Richmond Park?
It crucially depends how many other people have the same idea at the same time. Remember it is just days since national parks were urging people to visit them for this reason, until too many visitors turned up.
I overheard some people yesterday on a riverbank which was otherwise deserted saying that you could not park your car at Hatfield Forest (National Trust) and that it had never been so busy.
It was in hindsight obvious that with little other option people would go to these kind of places rather than sit at home all day on a lovely afternoon. Many of them would quite plausibly have imagined it would be possible to visit and maintain social distancing. clearly that was not the case though. These places will have to close.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
And the damage is equally bad when experts are regarded as latter day prophets operating well outside their areas of expertise or knowledge. The media and people generally need to learn to think and to be challenged, indeed welcome it. It’s the greatest single strength of PB.
Not volunteering but a thread on this would be good - it's a classic case where there's a strong consensus on what we think is happening - Trump is bollocksing everything up and destroying what's left of his presidency - that's seriously at odds with the available data.
Christ alive, no wonder he looks knackered. Lets also hope Mr G-Tech is correct with his 1000 a week claim for his design.
Cue the presser question - why have we not got more?
The press behaviour is deplorable. Mr Yorkshire Tea announces 80% pay, not enough. More than double the ventilators in a week, with the likes of G-Tech ready to make 1000s more and do an amazing deal with the whole of the private health sector for beds, staff and kit, why don't we have more.
Cuomo gave the US press both barrels yesterday when they tried this bullshit.
Maybe it is because we live in an era of less reverent press behaviour towards government and we’ve not really seen a crisis of this kind in this age, but I do find the role of the press in all this highly irresponsible and possibly dangerous. I am all for speaking truth to power, but the need to find an angle, any angle, to stoke more fear, create more confusion or just needle away in the background is really not helping IMHO.
I can't help feeling a lot of it (at least in this country) comes from the B word. Trump has arguably had a similar effect in the US.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
We are where we are. The government - and the people within it - have been very happy to play this game. We are not going back. I agree that it is incredibly damaging, as we are now seeing very clearly. If you tell people that experts are nothing more than agenda-driven, partisan shills, if you sneer at Elf n'Safety, then you end up with a lot of people ignoring what experts say and thinking that preventive measures are Elf n'Safety gone mad.
Ironically, it seems to me that plenty of remainers are ignoring the experts at the moment.
Although the polling indicates that Leavers are more likely to believe that the dangers of coronavirus are being overplayed. Republicans believe the same in the US, apparently.
More seriously, I suspect we will be hearing a lot less of Leavers and Remainers after this is done.
There is a distinction, is there not, between being sceptical about the seriousness of a situation, and not doing what you are being asked?
I'm still doing a five mile walk most days, making every effort to avoid getting too close to other people. I think I'm being sensible and the chances of me contracting it taking such a walk are slim. However, if the government asks me to stop going out except to buy food or for some other absolutely essential reason, then I will stop.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I see your point but we are dealing with something extraordinary here. If you are a S/E plumber, for instance, and you want to carry on working, and you have clients who have jobs for you to do, but are prevented by carrying on your trade due to government policy, then surely you have a case for compensation. In this example it is the government that is stopping your earnings, not the virus or lack of trading opportunities.
The government has not yet stopped plumbers from working and for the average plumber most of their clients are domestic households not businesses and as stated they can still apply for loans if necessary
I saw my plumber last week. He said he had plenty of work and was booked up for months. He recommended some precautionary work on the boiler and it didn't sound like I was going to get an appointment for a while. Thursday his assistant phones and suddenly there is lots of availability. So clearly such tradespeople are now getting lots of cancellations
Some but clearly they are still working as shown by the fact he is going to work on your boiler
But he may be allowed to work but run out of willing customers, except urgent repairs.
From Facebook (so can't vouch for its veracity) but intuitively makes sense:
“Why do we need to shut places where people group?
Remember this: VIRAL LOAD
There will be a lot about this. Why is it important? With this virus, the amount of virus in your blood at first infection directly relates to the severity of the illness you will suffer. This isn’t unusual - HIV management is all about reducing viral load to keep people alive longer. BUT it’s very important in COVID-19.
[snip]
If I sit with one person and catch this virus, I get a small viral load. My immune system will start to fight it and by the time the virus starts replicating, I’m ready to kill it.
No medicines will help this process meaningfully hence there is no “cure” for this virus. All we can do is support you with a ventilator and hope your immune system can catch up fast enough.
If I sit in the same room with six people, all shedding I get six times the initial dose. The rise in viral load is faster than my immune system can cope with and it is overrun. I then become critically ill and need me (or an ITU/HDU specialist) to fix it instead of just being at home and being ok in the end.
REMEMBER: THINK ABOUT VIRAL LOAD
Quite confused.
You don't get "viral load" from inhaling more virus.
Viral load is a measure of how fast the virus multiples in the blood stream (way way quicker than inhaling more virus particles will impact). In any event our tests are positive/negative at the moment and can't measure viral load.
That being said, they are right that being in a room with a lot of sufferers will increase the probability of catching the virus. However, it won't impact the severity of the disease
(and - on most occasions - when they say "viral load" they actually mean "viral shedding")
Thank you - as I noted, I couldn't count for its veracity.
To be clear, it doesn't really matter whether you are initially infected with one virus or a hundred thousand? So in the case of viruses the dose does not make the poison?
It's the wrong measure.
In theory it only takes one virus cell to enter your body for you to be infected.
If you are in a room with lots of infected people you will have more encounters with virus cells increasing the probability of infection.
But once it is in the body it is in the body. Whether it is 1 cell or 1,000 or 10,000 doesn't make a difference given the speed of viral replication once in the body.
(And as most people don't initially have antibodies you can't argue that "if it's only one cell then the body can fight it off more easily")
That is NOT what the Doctor I heard on the radio yesterday was saying. They were making the point that you have to try to minimise the load you get as it DOES make a difference once in the body. If you get a small dose to infect you it starts to replicate and your body can start to fight it off - if you get a large does to infect you it can make you critically ill sooner because your body can't cope.
That they were saying is why if you get ill then you must isolate even from your own household as much as possible, not share a towel etc - as even if its likely you might infect them either way you want to not overwhelm them with the infection before they start producing their own antibodies.
Yes, that's my understanding too.
Charles' comment is based on what is possible in theory: infection by a single cell. For the overwhelming majority of infectious diseases, including ones that an individual hasn't encountered before, a much greater number is required to have a non-negligible probability of developing.
Call after call after call on LBC from businesses who can't operate but have not been shut down and are not eligible for what Sunak has offered. Its going to collapse sole trading and SMEs unless they do something in their 3rd budget.
They will have to. There is no alternative. The government just has to bite the bullet on this one. I am sure Sunak knows this. It may be that others will not accept it. Forget the economics for a moment, these people are a key Tory-voting demographic. Leaving them hanging makes noi sense at any level.
If you are self employed you are an entrepreneur not a wage earner and set yourself up in the knowledge you would be on your own financially. The government has provided loans to businesses and offered to pay 80% of wages of wage earners and offered easier and quicker temporary access to Universal Credit and sick pay for the self employed but every grant it offers during the crisis ultimately leads to higher taxes post crisis for taxpayers
I will enjoy your u-turn on this.
I have already said if we go to full lockdown a UBI might be needed for that specific period. However we are not yet in full lockdown and many self employed plumbers, electricians, gardeners, accountants (working from home), florists etc are still working and earning an income at present.
Plus of course the self employed tend to earn through cash in hand, not a wage anyway and in any case can still apply for government loans now
First all the last paragraph is somewhat of a slur. Many self-employed tradesmen I know keep their books properly. You could, I suppose, argue that a barber gets cash. Secondly, this has appeared on the BBC Business site 'Self employed & we need to travel but wife is on the stay at home list. Not possible to carry on working. Johnson has offered SSP at £90 a week ... Just our direct debits are several times that a month.
But if I we worked for a restaurant we'd get 80% of our salary covered.
How is that fair?'
One thing on the communication, I think people are expecting the govt will pay 80% of their wages based on the press coverage. That is not true for all, its only if a company formally furloughs an employee, otherwise nothing has changed.
There will still be companies who choose to make people redundant based on this, and those will need to move onto benefits, broadly the same as self employed.
Comments
When I first started posting on PB in 2007 I never imagined a website would turn out to be such a dominant part of my life.
I would say its the Tory way but I know that most PB Tories have already disowned you.
On the plus side, it frees up more masks for doctors.
https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1242033161061662727
@AlastairMeeks your standards are slipping...
Development of a Dose-Response Model for SARS Coronavirus
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1539-6924.2010.01427.x
In order to develop a dose-response model for SARS coronavirus (SARS-CoV), the pooled data sets for infection of transgenic mice susceptible to SARS-CoV and infection of mice with murine hepatitis virus strain 1, which may be a clinically relevant model of SARS, were fit to beta-Poisson and exponential models with the maximum likelihood method. The ex- ponential model (k = 4.1 × l02) could describe the dose-response relationship of the pooled data sets. The beta-Poisson model did not provide a statistically significant improvement in fit. With the exponential model, the infectivity of SARS-CoV was calculated and compared with those of other coronaviruses. The does of SARS-CoV corresponding to 10% and 50% responses (illness) were estimated at 43 and 280 PFU, respectively. Its estimated infectivity was comparable to that of HCoV-229E, known as an agent of human common cold, and also similar to those of some animal coronaviruses belonging to the same genetic group. More- over, the exponential model was applied to the analysis of the epidemiological data of SARS outbreak that occurred at an apartment complex in Hong Kong in 2003. The estimated dose of SARS-CoV for apartment residents during the outbreak, which was back-calculated from the reported number of cases, ranged from 16 to 160 PFU/person, depending on the floor. The exponential model developed here is the sole dose-response model for SARS-CoV at the present and would enable us to understand the possibility for reemergence of SARS...
No doubt similar work has been done for Covid 19. I haven't found anything, but it is reportedly unusually infectious.
Announce the principle and fix the issues is better that waiting until it is perfect and seeing a lot of people sacked in the interim
I think it is very widespread, much more than the official estimates.
Any concept of impartiality or reporting without spin just died a death during that sorry episode. Partisan rubbish on both sides got retweeted and discussed on both sides as "evidence" that the readers bias was correct, obvious and morally sound. Those who made any attempt at neutrality were ignored by both sides. Editors learned from this. A media infected with the virus of partisanship takes a long time to recover.
But at least we're now wiser about the exploitation behind the 'Made in Italy' designer label.
However we are not yet in full lockdown and many self employed plumbers, electricians, gardeners, accountants (working from home), florists etc are still working and earning an income at present.
Plus of course the self employed tend to earn through cash in hand, not a wage anyway and in any case can still apply for government loans now
No end in sight at the moment.
In theory it only takes one virus cell to enter your body for you to be infected.
If you are in a room with lots of infected people you will have more encounters with virus cells increasing the probability of infection.
But once it is in the body it is in the body. Whether it is 1 cell or 1,000 or 10,000 doesn't make a difference given the speed of viral replication once in the body.
(And as most people don't initially have antibodies you can't argue that "if it's only one cell then the body can fight it off more easily")
Keep us posted, if you can.
@Charles - this is the (1) of my 2 scenarios we were discussing the other day.
And the (2) was that some businesses (not many but some) who actually could afford to ride out the epi with everyone WFH - and were planning to - will now instead put them on furlough and claim the 80%.
See?
We've also delayed having kids until this is over, she doesn't want to be pregnant while this is going on given her existing risk factor.
That they were saying is why if you get ill then you must isolate even from your own household as much as possible, not share a towel etc - as even if its likely you might infect them either way you want to not overwhelm them with the infection before they start producing their own antibodies.
Follow Follow @realDonaldTrump
I watch and listen to the Fake News, CNN, MSDNC, ABC, NBC, CBS, some of FOX (desperately & foolishly pleading to be politically correct), the @nytimes, & the @washingtonpost, and all I see is hatred of me at any cost. Don’t they understand that they are destroying themselves?
8:28 pm - 22 Mar 2020
A cabinet worth having would already have removed him from office. But anyone who had the character to make a decision would never have taken a job in the first place.
And much of the remaining issues are actually down to the parts of the industry which are still nationalised.
Some failure :-) !
I returned to an old Dragon's Dogma save the other day. Bloody weird having an RPG with fantastic combat but ropey dialogue/story.
https://www.immunology.org/public-information/bitesized-immunology/pathogens-and-disease/immune-responses-viruses
Not to mention the mucosal membrane.
I'm about to do the same lol. Straight to BBI for me. I have yet to complete the main game. The story is pants and the enemies aren't challenging enough beyond level 30 in the main game. In BBI it's challenging until at least level 80. The final boss until level 120 if you don't have item boosts.
Can't believe anyone would ever think it was.
Amazing that the Wickes website says "We want to minimise disruption as much as possible, therefore installations are continuing as planned. If you have an installation booked you will be contacted to ensure it is still safe for the work to go ahead. Your installer will agree any specific arrangements with you when they are on site and everyone's welfare will remain our priority throughout the installation."
Are they high? Its not safe for McDonalds to offer takeaway from a drive-in window, but its safe for people to go house to house building kitchens and bathrooms?
Won't help the self-employed who take cash in hand and report no earnings to the government so they don't have to pay taxes, but that's karma.
Secondly, this has appeared on the BBC Business site
'Self employed & we need to travel but wife is on the stay at home list.
Not possible to carry on working.
Johnson has offered SSP at £90 a week ...
Just our direct debits are several times that a month.
But if I we worked for a restaurant we'd get 80% of our salary covered.
How is that fair?'
I'd strongly advocate finishing the story. The premise and ending (I believe the ending can vary) are very good, but you're entirely right about it going missing for almost the entire game in between.
I don’t think so to be honest, but it’s an angle to get at Boris whilst looking concerned. There’s nothing else to do I suppose
That said...it has helped me win some money....not as much as it should have. The highlight was the night of the 2006 Italian election when Prodi pipsqueaked Berlusconi...everyone was coming onto pbCOM for info....that is when I really knew that this site was the real deal, and had serious people posting...
Where is Roger for that matter? Is he OK?
Although there is the terrible verdict of 'not proven' available in Scotland.
Culture
I posted not long ago it’s our liberal/capitalist culture not the science controlling the governments response, and making U.K. response weak and error prone. i was called the most idiotic Poster in PB history! You remember? Changed your mind yet?
The differences around the world is cultural. It’s not the Chinese Plague it’s the wrapped up in consumerism without a conscious awareness of what your lives and society’s have become plaque. Hence, bang, straight into those countries before they realised what’s hitting them. Hence the panic buying of toilet roles and riots outside supermarkets.
I used the observation of Jerome, on holiday in Germany and eyes open at the cultural differences. There are keep off the grass signs in the park and the Germans are observing em, in complete contrast to London where Jerome lives.
Culture.
You were supreme in your ignorance it was science guiding the government not culture, repeating it over and over brain washing yourselves.
You see now you were wrong, we are a very liberal country, a liberal PM not an authoritarian PM, finding it hard to do the authoritarian thing, thisis the very heart of our culture. And a nations culture has been driving response to this the whole world over, not the science.
More seriously, I suspect we will be hearing a lot less of Leavers and Remainers after this is done.
Meaning many more people are carriers then the official figures show.
It's the best way to play the game for me. Super challenging for the first 60-70 levels.
Its unsafe for Nandos to offer a takeaway business and we should all Listen to the Prime Minister and his Clear Advice. But John the plumber absolutely should be doing his normal business going into house after house after house.
I suspect that HYUFD knows the contradictory nature of his utterances but is enough of a political sociopath not to care. Its just Other People after all, what do peons matter?
I am still employed as I am working from home (I’m on Teams at the moment fielding questions about transformers), so I’m not hurting yet. A bit worried about supplies of cat food though.
Obviously.
It was in hindsight obvious that with little other option people would go to these kind of places rather than sit at home all day on a lovely afternoon. Many of them would quite plausibly have imagined it would be possible to visit and maintain social distancing. clearly that was not the case though. These places will have to close.
Lockdown surely inevitable now
I'm still doing a five mile walk most days, making every effort to avoid getting too close to other people. I think I'm being sensible and the chances of me contracting it taking such a walk are slim. However, if the government asks me to stop going out except to buy food or for some other absolutely essential reason, then I will stop.
https://twitter.com/SamChuiPhotos/status/1242041408460132352?s=20
Initial load matters in that there is an amount below which an infection does not get going at all. You will not have "caught it".
If the initial load exceeds this level, you WILL be infected and from then on it is other factors that determine how badly it affects you.
It does NOT matter to what extent the initial load is exceeded, just that it is.
We do not know what the critical "IL" is, nor whether it is the same for everyone.
Charles' comment is based on what is possible in theory: infection by a single cell. For the overwhelming majority of infectious diseases, including ones that an individual hasn't encountered before, a much greater number is required to have a non-negligible probability of developing.
There will still be companies who choose to make people redundant based on this, and those will need to move onto benefits, broadly the same as self employed.