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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The current big UK betting market: Who’ll be next Shadow Chanc

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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671
    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    North/South Circular would be a better boundary; most of the confirmed cases and most of the CCTV is inside this area.
    Ealing, Harrow, Brent and Barnet seem to have quite a lot of cases.

    Sadiq Kahn doing more in 10 minutes with Marr than the government has done in the past 6 week.

    Clear message: Stay at home or people will die.

    Repeat repeat repeat. Repeat repeat repeat.

    Really. And how many watch Marr

    He said nothing more than Boris and others have been saying on mainstream news programmes
    No one. That's the problem. I'm a Conservative voter. Sadiq Kahn, Campbell, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair woild have done better.

    The only person in the country who would have done worse is Jeremy Corbyn.
    That is not the view in the country.

    Not only polls showing Boris's popularity but more and more people are coming in behind him and also the chancellor, who is playing a key role

    So many of Boris's critics would attack him no matter what he did
    My God. Who cares what polls say. Polls revealed three weeks ago that the British public were least concerned about this virus. The public are IGNORANT. That's the problem. That's what is being discussed. They need to be TOLD what to do clearly. This is science and public health, not politics.

    The polls will turn when reality sets in. If you care about such trivialities.
    Worse than ignorant , they are extremely thick, ordering them will be only solution, otherwise the boneheads will continue and regardless of instructions the morons will blame someone else.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Spanish lockdown extension needed because:
    Pedro Sánchez: «Necesitamos ganar tiempo para preparar el sistema sanitario»

    I presume no translation is needed. And people think only 'our NHS' cannot cope.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Sadiq Kahn doing more in 10 minutes with Marr than the government has done in the past 6 week.

    Clear message: Stay at home or people will die.

    Repeat repeat repeat. Repeat repeat repeat.

    Really. And how many watch Marr

    He said nothing more than Boris and others have been saying on mainstream news programmes
    No one. That's the problem. I'm a Conservative voter. Sadiq Kahn, Campbell, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair woild have done better.

    The only person in the country who would have done worse is Jeremy Corbyn.
    That is not the view in the country.

    Not only polls showing Boris's popularity but more and more people are coming in behind him and also the chancellor, who is playing a key role

    So many of Boris's critics would attack him no matter what he did
    My God. Who cares what polls say. Polls revealed three weeks ago that the British public were least concerned about this virus. The public are IGNORANT. That's the problem. That's what is being discussed. They need to be TOLD what to do clearly. This is science and public health, not politics.

    The polls will turn when reality sets in. If you care about such trivialities.
    You do not need to shout and they are being told what to do, some are ignoring the advice

    The next step that may well have to be taken is compulsion, and are you saying you are ready for a police state
    Why would it be a police state? I’m in lockdown but can express my views watch whatever I want and am free to communicate with others so long as it’s not face to face. I would not have liked to have to do this thirty years ago where the phone was all you had and entertainment was more limited, although thirty years ago I could have found different ways to pass the time😉
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135
    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    I didn't say I couldn't see a difference what I said was the thinking for both sets of actions was the same. But yes I can also see just going out for a walk can also spread it even if you don't go close to anyone. You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    This is apparently the lake district at the moment...


  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    If Boris wants to reach people, perhaps he might like to do a prime time interview with Andrew Neil.

    For what purpose so that those with agendas like you can orgasm? Grow up ffs.
    Why do people need to protect the mother hen Boris as if he is some kind of weakling rather than the government’s best communicator. Right now the governments first, second and third priority is to change behaviours. Boris should be out there making the case.
    He is and frankly you are just a prat with an agenda. A very transparent one.
    Clearly I hit a raw nerve. My agenda is indeed transparent and simple, the government’s communication is weak and confused. Now is a critical time and they need to do much, much better. If Boris got in front of Neil he would be forced to do his homework and might get his shit together.
    Yup at 65 with high blood pressure and prostate cancer my nerves are quite raw. That's why I can call out bullshit with a clear conscience.
  • malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    North/South Circular would be a better boundary; most of the confirmed cases and most of the CCTV is inside this area.
    Ealing, Harrow, Brent and Barnet seem to have quite a lot of cases.

    Sadiq Kahn doing more in 10 minutes with Marr than the government has done in the past 6 week.

    Clear message: Stay at home or people will die.

    Repeat repeat repeat. Repeat repeat repeat.

    Really. And how many watch Marr

    He said nothing more than Boris and others have been saying on mainstream news programmes
    No one. That's the problem. I'm a Conservative voter. Sadiq Kahn, Campbell, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair woild have done better.

    The only person in the country who would have done worse is Jeremy Corbyn.
    That is not the view in the country.

    Not only polls showing Boris's popularity but more and more people are coming in behind him and also the chancellor, who is playing a key role

    So many of Boris's critics would attack him no matter what he did
    My God. Who cares what polls say. Polls revealed three weeks ago that the British public were least concerned about this virus. The public are IGNORANT. That's the problem. That's what is being discussed. They need to be TOLD what to do clearly. This is science and public health, not politics.

    The polls will turn when reality sets in. If you care about such trivialities.
    Worse than ignorant , they are extremely thick, ordering them will be only solution, otherwise the boneheads will continue and regardless of instructions the morons will blame someone else.
    See Nicola is proposing legislation next week to protect the highland communities and I back her 100%
  • tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    A huge number. Hundreds probably.
    There was No 10 statement that London would "never" be locked down so that one couldn't get in or out.

    Given the rate at which they are abandoning previous positions, it's hard to see that lasting. But can it be sealed off?
    I think it’s something like 160 including all the junctions. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that they’d keep Londoners where they are if they think drastic action is needed.
    Against about 20 crossings between England and Scotland. Come on Nicola - build the wall!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    A WORKER for the Queen at Buckingham Palace has contracted coronavirus.

    They tested positive for the killer bug while the monarch, 93, was still at the London residence.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226413/coronavirus-buckingham-palace-queen/
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,462

    This is apparently the lake district at the moment...


    Cumbria is also a relative hotspot (like Devon).
  • This is apparently the lake district at the moment...


    No - so depressing.

    Time for immediate legislation and organisers facing criminal charges
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    North/South Circular would be a better boundary; most of the confirmed cases and most of the CCTV is inside this area.
    Ealing, Harrow, Brent and Barnet seem to have quite a lot of cases.

    Sadiq Kahn doing more in 10 minutes with Marr than the government has done in the past 6 week.

    Clear message: Stay at home or people will die.

    Repeat repeat repeat. Repeat repeat repeat.

    Really. And how many watch Marr

    He said nothing more than Boris and others have been saying on mainstream news programmes
    No one. That's the problem. I'm a Conservative voter. Sadiq Kahn, Campbell, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair woild have done better.

    The only person in the country who would have done worse is Jeremy Corbyn.
    That is not the view in the country.

    Not only polls showing Boris's popularity but more and more people are coming in behind him and also the chancellor, who is playing a key role

    So many of Boris's critics would attack him no matter what he did
    My God. Who cares what polls say. Polls revealed three weeks ago that the British public were least concerned about this virus. The public are IGNORANT. That's the problem. That's what is being discussed. They need to be TOLD what to do clearly. This is science and public health, not politics.

    The polls will turn when reality sets in. If you care about such trivialities.
    Worse than ignorant , they are extremely thick, ordering them will be only solution, otherwise the boneheads will continue and regardless of instructions the morons will blame someone else.
    See Nicola is proposing legislation next week to protect the highland communities and I back her 100%
    She has limited power to do anything , she needs Westminster approval for anything.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,192

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mr. Z, ha, touche.

    Must be said, although a pet hate, it's very easy to fall into firing arrows.

    It's markedly less stupid than the cliche of archers drawing back their bowstrings and just holding it for a minute or so.

    I re read the Once and Future King the other day and was disappointed to note that White is an incurable arrow firer.
    Still, there are compensations. Wart being turned into a hawk and his stay in the falconry mews is imo one of the funniest in literature.
    And the chapter at the end where the poor, sad Arthur is transformed into a goose and has some real happiness at last is one of the most moving.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,193
    DavidL said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    So, we live on the edge of the country with lots of delightful walks in woods and on farm roads near our house. We say “hullo” to people on these walks but there is no close proximity with anyone. Should we be “staying at home” or is it ok to enjoy the sunshine? I am a bit confused and I have been following this a lot more closely than most.

    I really don’t see how we catch Covid 19 on such a walk. I don’t see how we infect anyone else if we had the virus asymptomatically. What am I missing?

    I think you’re fine. Just be sensible when outside. I feel sorry for those living in big cities, but that’s life I’m afraid.
    That was my provisional conclusion. If going out is inevitably going to bring you into close proximity with people or even things people have touched or involves you touching things others will subsequently touch don’t do it. If it’s not I am struggling to see the harm.
    I'm taking care with the the likes of gates and stiles on the basis that everybody touches them. I also worry whether the distancing recommendations are sufficient in the presence of a stiff breeze.
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441

    This is apparently the lake district at the moment...


    Cumbria is also a relative hotspot (like Devon).
    Depressingly, friends say the same is also true in Germany - with groups of younger people congregating outdoors. Amongst some people, there is a delusional sense of invincibility everywhere.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    A huge number. Hundreds probably.
    There was No 10 statement that London would "never" be locked down so that one couldn't get in or out.

    Given the rate at which they are abandoning previous positions, it's hard to see that lasting. But can it be sealed off?
    I think it’s something like 160 including all the junctions. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that they’d keep Londoners where they are if they think drastic action is needed.
    Against about 20 crossings between England and Scotland. Come on Nicola - build the wall!
    Be surprised it is even close to 20, less than 5 main roads for sure.
    However given she has to ask Boris if she wants to sneeze I have doubts building will start soon.
  • nichomar said:

    Sadiq Kahn doing more in 10 minutes with Marr than the government has done in the past 6 week.

    Clear message: Stay at home or people will die.

    Repeat repeat repeat. Repeat repeat repeat.

    Really. And how many watch Marr

    He said nothing more than Boris and others have been saying on mainstream news programmes
    No one. That's the problem. I'm a Conservative voter. Sadiq Kahn, Campbell, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair woild have done better.

    The only person in the country who would have done worse is Jeremy Corbyn.
    That is not the view in the country.

    Not only polls showing Boris's popularity but more and more people are coming in behind him and also the chancellor, who is playing a key role

    So many of Boris's critics would attack him no matter what he did
    My God. Who cares what polls say. Polls revealed three weeks ago that the British public were least concerned about this virus. The public are IGNORANT. That's the problem. That's what is being discussed. They need to be TOLD what to do clearly. This is science and public health, not politics.

    The polls will turn when reality sets in. If you care about such trivialities.
    You do not need to shout and they are being told what to do, some are ignoring the advice

    The next step that may well have to be taken is compulsion, and are you saying you are ready for a police state
    Why would it be a police state? I’m in lockdown but can express my views watch whatever I want and am free to communicate with others so long as it’s not face to face. I would not have liked to have to do this thirty years ago where the phone was all you had and entertainment was more limited, although thirty years ago I could have found different ways to pass the time😉
    If you make it compulsory, which is looking very possible, then the police will have powers of arrest and imprisonment.

    Not to be taken lightly
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    This is apparently the lake district at the moment...


    Cumbria is also a relative hotspot (like Devon).
    Lunatics.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,758
    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    If Boris wants to reach people, perhaps he might like to do a prime time interview with Andrew Neil.

    For what purpose so that those with agendas like you can orgasm? Grow up ffs.
    Why do people need to protect the mother hen Boris as if he is some kind of weakling rather than the government’s best communicator. Right now the governments first, second and third priority is to change behaviours. Boris should be out there making the case.
    He is and frankly you are just a prat with an agenda. A very transparent one.
    Clearly I hit a raw nerve. My agenda is indeed transparent and simple, the government’s communication is weak and confused. Now is a critical time and they need to do much, much better. If Boris got in front of Neil he would be forced to do his homework and might get his shit together.
    Yup at 65 with high blood pressure and prostate cancer my nerves are quite raw. That's why I can call out bullshit with a clear conscience.
    I sure in your world everything is going swimmingly well and everyone is staying indoors. A perfectly well oiled machine. For me, that’s not the case and the government needs to pull its finger out and Boris in particular. I guess bullshit is in the eye of the beholder. I too see a lot of bullshit and am concerned at how things are developing.

    Either way I sincerely hope you stay safe and well.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2020
    This is the message that needs to be sent to the young...

    THREE junior doctors aged 30 are believed to have been struck by Covid-19 in the same hospital. They have been placed on ventilators and are being treated by colleagues in London, a medical source told The Sun on Sunday.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-aged-30-struck-down-by-coronavirus-in-the-same-hospital/

    Obviously I don't blame these doctors, but it shows young people can get seriously seriously ill / will need ICU.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    A huge number. Hundreds probably.
    There was No 10 statement that London would "never" be locked down so that one couldn't get in or out.

    Given the rate at which they are abandoning previous positions, it's hard to see that lasting. But can it be sealed off?
    I think it’s something like 160 including all the junctions. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that they’d keep Londoners where they are if they think drastic action is needed.
    Against about 20 crossings between England and Scotland. Come on Nicola - build the wall!
    Be surprised it is even close to 20, less than 5 main roads for sure.
    However given she has to ask Boris if she wants to sneeze I have doubts building will start soon.
    Police forces close roads all the time for safety issues would have thought Police scotland could do that and not aware there is a limit on how many roads are allowed to be closed at once.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,181
    Wonderful brisk walk to the beach just now, bright bright sunshine.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,488
    IanB2 said:

    Gadfly said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:
    What a stupid man.
    Morning Gideon, how are the family this morning? Hope they are no worse.
    Thanks for asking. My wife is in bed and I'm just trying to keep the household going. She couldn't sleep last night as she said she was struggling to breathe. I slept on a camping bed in the other room.

    Using the spo2 measure that Foxy recommended and her oxygen saturation is fine so. It's good to have one for those who haven't.

    Boys seem ok just trashing my house.
    Take care.
    If saturation goes below 93%, or respiratory rate above 30 per minute, usually coupled with a rising heart rate, then needs professional assessment.
    Any chance of a refresher regarding the spo2 measure that Gideon refers to?
    And is there a recommended brand/device? Had a quick look on Amazon and there is a large price range; I am wary of getting a cheap one
    Pulse oximeters were designed using off the shelf components: one red led and one infra-red (the ones used in remote controls) plus sensors. They will need a chip to compare the results, but they are probably standard too.
    In other words, it shouldn’t cost very much to make a perfectly serviceable one. I’m not saying there aren’t dodgy ones out there, but a working one shouldn’t have to be expensive.
    Mine was the ATMOKO one off Amazon for £17. It appears to work fine, assuming my reading really is at 93 at bedtime.
    Cold fingers can fool the sensors, so it may well be that. Mine was £16 from Amazon, and works fine.

    Nail polish etc can fool them too.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,400
    FF43 said:

    tlg86 said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    More than ever the BBC also needs to keep an eye on this government, ask the difficult questions, and help hold it to account. We get better decisions that way.

    In the past I'd have agreed with that but listening to some of the inane questions at the PCs makes me wonder whether they grasp the gravity of the situation. Too many of the journos are focussed too much on their egos and soundbites.
    Marr just asked the “how long will this go on for” question. Muppet.
    In general there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. Who is being interviewed?

    This question is the one everyone wants to know the answer to, and is therefore a good one for journalists to ask. The answer they should give IMO: "It will over quicker with fewer deaths if people stay at home and keep washing their hands"
    The conference I saw had a bunch of questions about rationing, bringing back ration books, when the govt had already said several times, very clearly, that there is enough food being produced and they were leaving it to supermarkets to place limits on particular items where required.

    That line of questioning didn't feel like trying to hold the govt to the account, it felt like trying to get a headline saying "govt considering rationing" which would presumably lead to panic buying...

    I thought the NHS director who said yesterday this is your chance to save a life was very powerful.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Good morning

    After the invasion of the Highlands, Snowdonia, the lake district, beaches and beauty spots by numerous selfish morons I believe HMG has to mandate staying at home and also immediate loss of licence of any pub or restaurant that remains open

    I also want to see mandatory rationing of essential food and also home deliveries to those isolated from everyone, including family, receiving the basics of milk, bread, fruit and disinfectants

    And on the economy I want to see help for the self employed which I understand is on the way

    I want to see these too, but most of all, I want to see clear communications. As others have suggested, the BBC needs to be used to advertise simple messaging:

    Wash your hands
    Stay at home
    Save the NHS
    Protect the country.
    I would agree.

    The BBC now need to be on a wartime footing with 24/7 public broadcasting
    How about the Government abandon its childish and silly ban on appearing on certain programmes?
    I have seen lots of ministers on BBC and Sky
    Not on the boycotted programmes
    To be honest I long since stopped watching Newsnight and Question Time
    And Today and PM. That doesn't make it OK. Not at all.
    Why should ministers appear on niche programmes?

    Today, in particular, I find infuriating in that they don't allow people to develop answers
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    This is the message that needs to be sent to the young...

    THREE junior doctors aged 30 are believed to have been struck by Covid-19 in the same hospital. They have been placed on ventilators and are being treated by colleagues in London, a medical source told The Sun on Sunday.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-aged-30-struck-down-by-coronavirus-in-the-same-hospital/

    Obviously I don't blame these doctors, but it shows young people can get seriously seriously ill / will need ICU.

    This is what enrages me about the lack of solidarity in the UK. Not about politics, not about 'me going for a walk in the park'. The health service needs time more than anything else right now [ exactly why here in Spain they've extended the lockdown] or within a couple of weeks at most there could easily be carnage. I'm normally pretty middle of the road but I simply do not understand the complacency on here.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    ABZ said:

    This is apparently the lake district at the moment...


    Cumbria is also a relative hotspot (like Devon).
    Depressingly, friends say the same is also true in Germany - with groups of younger people congregating outdoors. Amongst some people, there is a delusional sense of invincibility everywhere.
    i reported the other day that my nephews - and shamefully my brother in law are still of this view.


    Selfish fecks and utterly stupid too
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,193
    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123

    This is the message that needs to be sent to the young...

    THREE junior doctors aged 30 are believed to have been struck by Covid-19 in the same hospital. They have been placed on ventilators and are being treated by colleagues in London, a medical source told The Sun on Sunday.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-aged-30-struck-down-by-coronavirus-in-the-same-hospital/

    Obviously I don't blame these doctors, but it shows young people can get seriously seriously ill / will need ICU.

    Worrying. This is the Battle of Britain. Unfortunately the enemy is not a foreign power but our citizens and their ignorant and selfish behaviour.

    I've been saying the same for weeks. The Tenerife hotel was the case study. If we adhere to the policy it will work. If we don't thousands more deaths will occur.

    Because of the uturn the government messaging has been hopeless. Pathetic and contradictory. I don't say this lightly but bring in Campbell and Morgan and get them doing their thing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    felix said:

    This is the message that needs to be sent to the young...

    THREE junior doctors aged 30 are believed to have been struck by Covid-19 in the same hospital. They have been placed on ventilators and are being treated by colleagues in London, a medical source told The Sun on Sunday.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-aged-30-struck-down-by-coronavirus-in-the-same-hospital/

    Obviously I don't blame these doctors, but it shows young people can get seriously seriously ill / will need ICU.

    This is what enrages me about the lack of solidarity in the UK. Not about politics, not about 'me going for a walk in the park'. The health service needs time more than anything else right now [ exactly why here in Spain they've extended the lockdown] or within a couple of weeks at most there could easily be carnage. I'm normally pretty middle of the road but I simply do not understand the complacency on here.
    It is like deliberately ignoring the blackout during the war. You are not only putting yourself at risk, you are endangering the lives of everybody else.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,311
    ABZ said:

    This is apparently the lake district at the moment...


    Cumbria is also a relative hotspot (like Devon).
    Depressingly, friends say the same is also true in Germany - with groups of younger people congregating outdoors. Amongst some people, there is a delusional sense of invincibility everywhere.
    Swings and roundabouts; that sense of invincibility is why youngsters are so useful (and expendable) in wars.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135
    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Which is my point when we are out we touch things without thinking so "just going out for a walk" while I understand the motivation and the thinking isn't as safe as people claim.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,099

    Because of the uturn the government messaging has been hopeless. Pathetic and contradictory. I don't say this lightly but bring in Campbell and Morgan and get them doing their thing.

    Who or what is Morgan?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    I’ve just taken the rubbish out, unfortunately it’s only about 15 meters away so that’s my outdoor excitement over. If only the weather was better I could sit outside and dangle my feet in the pool.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,274
    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    The inside door handle of airplane toilets on US internal flights....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2020
    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671
    edited March 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    A huge number. Hundreds probably.
    There was No 10 statement that London would "never" be locked down so that one couldn't get in or out.

    Given the rate at which they are abandoning previous positions, it's hard to see that lasting. But can it be sealed off?
    I think it’s something like 160 including all the junctions. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that they’d keep Londoners where they are if they think drastic action is needed.
    Against about 20 crossings between England and Scotland. Come on Nicola - build the wall!
    Be surprised it is even close to 20, less than 5 main roads for sure.
    However given she has to ask Boris if she wants to sneeze I have doubts building will start soon.
    Police forces close roads all the time for safety issues would have thought Police scotland could do that and not aware there is a limit on how many roads are allowed to be closed at once.
    A bit different shutting one road in an emergency to blockading every road in the country, I think you will find neither police or Scottish Government have a fraction of those powers.
    PS: they had to wait on Boris before closing pubs , schools etc.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,420

    This is the message that needs to be sent to the young...

    THREE junior doctors aged 30 are believed to have been struck by Covid-19 in the same hospital. They have been placed on ventilators and are being treated by colleagues in London, a medical source told The Sun on Sunday.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-aged-30-struck-down-by-coronavirus-in-the-same-hospital/

    Obviously I don't blame these doctors, but it shows young people can get seriously seriously ill / will need ICU.

    Worrying. This is the Battle of Britain. Unfortunately the enemy is not a foreign power but our citizens and their ignorant and selfish behaviour.

    I've been saying the same for weeks. The Tenerife hotel was the case study. If we adhere to the policy it will work. If we don't thousands more deaths will occur.

    Because of the uturn the government messaging has been hopeless. Pathetic and contradictory. I don't say this lightly but bring in Campbell and Morgan and get them doing their thing.
    https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1241506160756342788
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    nichomar said:

    Sadiq Kahn doing more in 10 minutes with Marr than the government has done in the past 6 week.

    Clear message: Stay at home or people will die.

    Repeat repeat repeat. Repeat repeat repeat.

    Really. And how many watch Marr

    He said nothing more than Boris and others have been saying on mainstream news programmes
    No one. That's the problem. I'm a Conservative voter. Sadiq Kahn, Campbell, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair woild have done better.

    The only person in the country who would have done worse is Jeremy Corbyn.
    That is not the view in the country.

    Not only polls showing Boris's popularity but more and more people are coming in behind him and also the chancellor, who is playing a key role

    So many of Boris's critics would attack him no matter what he did
    My God. Who cares what polls say. Polls revealed three weeks ago that the British public were least concerned about this virus. The public are IGNORANT. That's the problem. That's what is being discussed. They need to be TOLD what to do clearly. This is science and public health, not politics.

    The polls will turn when reality sets in. If you care about such trivialities.
    You do not need to shout and they are being told what to do, some are ignoring the advice

    The next step that may well have to be taken is compulsion, and are you saying you are ready for a police state
    Why would it be a police state? I’m in lockdown but can express my views watch whatever I want and am free to communicate with others so long as it’s not face to face. I would not have liked to have to do this thirty years ago where the phone was all you had and entertainment was more limited, although thirty years ago I could have found different ways to pass the time😉
    If you make it compulsory, which is looking very possible, then the police will have powers of arrest and imprisonment.

    Not to be taken lightly
    Er it has always been possible for the police can arrest you and take you down to the station *if you break the law*.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2020

    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
    Extremely sensible. I believe the current view is 24hr virus survival on cardboard, so 48hrs seems sensible, assuming non-perishables are inside.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,875
    rkrkrk said:

    FF43 said:

    tlg86 said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    More than ever the BBC also needs to keep an eye on this government, ask the difficult questions, and help hold it to account. We get better decisions that way.

    In the past I'd have agreed with that but listening to some of the inane questions at the PCs makes me wonder whether they grasp the gravity of the situation. Too many of the journos are focussed too much on their egos and soundbites.
    Marr just asked the “how long will this go on for” question. Muppet.
    In general there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. Who is being interviewed?

    This question is the one everyone wants to know the answer to, and is therefore a good one for journalists to ask. The answer they should give IMO: "It will over quicker with fewer deaths if people stay at home and keep washing their hands"
    The conference I saw had a bunch of questions about rationing, bringing back ration books, when the govt had already said several times, very clearly, that there is enough food being produced and they were leaving it to supermarkets to place limits on particular items where required.

    That line of questioning didn't feel like trying to hold the govt to the account, it felt like trying to get a headline saying "govt considering rationing" which would presumably lead to panic buying...

    I thought the NHS director who said yesterday this is your chance to save a life was very powerful.
    The media have been encouraging panic buying for at least two weeks.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    felix said:

    Spanish lockdown extension needed because:
    Pedro Sánchez: «Necesitamos ganar tiempo para preparar el sistema sanitario»

    I presume no translation is needed. And people think only 'our NHS' cannot cope.

    Friend in Holland was telling me Friday their health system was already at breaking point
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,274
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Gadfly said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:
    What a stupid man.
    Morning Gideon, how are the family this morning? Hope they are no worse.
    Thanks for asking. My wife is in bed and I'm just trying to keep the household going. She couldn't sleep last night as she said she was struggling to breathe. I slept on a camping bed in the other room.

    Using the spo2 measure that Foxy recommended and her oxygen saturation is fine so. It's good to have one for those who haven't.

    Boys seem ok just trashing my house.
    Take care.
    If saturation goes below 93%, or respiratory rate above 30 per minute, usually coupled with a rising heart rate, then needs professional assessment.
    Any chance of a refresher regarding the spo2 measure that Gideon refers to?
    And is there a recommended brand/device? Had a quick look on Amazon and there is a large price range; I am wary of getting a cheap one
    Pulse oximeters were designed using off the shelf components: one red led and one infra-red (the ones used in remote controls) plus sensors. They will need a chip to compare the results, but they are probably standard too.
    In other words, it shouldn’t cost very much to make a perfectly serviceable one. I’m not saying there aren’t dodgy ones out there, but a working one shouldn’t have to be expensive.
    Mine was the ATMOKO one off Amazon for £17. It appears to work fine, assuming my reading really is at 93 at bedtime.
    Cold fingers can fool the sensors, so it may well be that. Mine was £16 from Amazon, and works fine.

    Nail polish etc can fool them too.
    Well it wasn't that last!
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,193

    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
    Extremely sensible. I believe the current view is 24hr survival on cardboard, so 48hrs seems sensible, assuming non-perishables are inside.
    24 hours cardboard, 48 hours stainless steel, 72 hours certain plastics.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,099
    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    A huge number. Hundreds probably.
    There was No 10 statement that London would "never" be locked down so that one couldn't get in or out.

    Given the rate at which they are abandoning previous positions, it's hard to see that lasting. But can it be sealed off?
    I think it’s something like 160 including all the junctions. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that they’d keep Londoners where they are if they think drastic action is needed.
    Against about 20 crossings between England and Scotland. Come on Nicola - build the wall!
    Be surprised it is even close to 20, less than 5 main roads for sure.
    However given she has to ask Boris if she wants to sneeze I have doubts building will start soon.
    Police forces close roads all the time for safety issues would have thought Police scotland could do that and not aware there is a limit on how many roads are allowed to be closed at once.
    A bit different shutting one road in an emergency to blockading every road in the country, I think you will find neither police or Scottish Government have a fraction of those powers.
    PS: they had to wait on Boris before closing pubs , schools etc.
    Hard to imagine police Scotland would have the numbers to shut every road in the Highlands. However, closing the A9 and A82 to all but local traffic would presumably make a significant difference and would presumably not be impossible.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,420

    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
    Extremely sensible. I believe the current view is 24hr virus survival on cardboard, so 48hrs seems sensible, assuming non-perishables are inside.
    What about plastic containers?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671
    ydoethur said:

    Because of the uturn the government messaging has been hopeless. Pathetic and contradictory. I don't say this lightly but bring in Campbell and Morgan and get them doing their thing.

    Who or what is Morgan?
    One can only hope it is not that imbecilic cretinous half-witted moron Piers
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135
    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2020
    Its not too late for the government, but they really need to stop worrying about if it might scare people and errrh scare people.

    Within 2-3 weeks it will be so widespread, unless you keep the number of people you interact with very very small, you will come into contact with it. Even if you are getting deliveries, the probability that somebody in the supply chain has interacted with that and has it will be very high.

    The presumption has to start from everybody has it and everything you interact with outside of your home has been contaminated.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    @ydoethur
    You never need to apologise for long posts about the 15th century. Is one of the highlights of PB.

    Talking of which, how is @JackW ?
    He hasn't been on since November last year. Is that before or after Vanilla reset all our passwords?
    Wiki hasn't noted his passing, so assume he is still around
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,099
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Because of the uturn the government messaging has been hopeless. Pathetic and contradictory. I don't say this lightly but bring in Campbell and Morgan and get them doing their thing.

    Who or what is Morgan?
    One can only hope it is not that imbecilic cretinous half-witted moron Piers
    The only way he would be of any use is if he ordered everyone to go down the pub.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    A huge number. Hundreds probably.
    There was No 10 statement that London would "never" be locked down so that one couldn't get in or out.

    Given the rate at which they are abandoning previous positions, it's hard to see that lasting. But can it be sealed off?
    I think it’s something like 160 including all the junctions. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that they’d keep Londoners where they are if they think drastic action is needed.
    Against about 20 crossings between England and Scotland. Come on Nicola - build the wall!
    Be surprised it is even close to 20, less than 5 main roads for sure.
    However given she has to ask Boris if she wants to sneeze I have doubts building will start soon.
    Police forces close roads all the time for safety issues would have thought Police scotland could do that and not aware there is a limit on how many roads are allowed to be closed at once.
    A bit different shutting one road in an emergency to blockading every road in the country, I think you will find neither police or Scottish Government have a fraction of those powers.
    PS: they had to wait on Boris before closing pubs , schools etc.
    Hard to imagine police Scotland would have the numbers to shut every road in the Highlands. However, closing the A9 and A82 to all but local traffic would presumably make a significant difference and would presumably not be impossible.
    I was more thinking just the roads in and out as I was responding to the build a wall idea
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Sadiq Kahn doing more in 10 minutes with Marr than the government has done in the past 6 week.

    Clear message: Stay at home or people will die.

    Repeat repeat repeat. Repeat repeat repeat.

    Really. And how many watch Marr

    He said nothing more than Boris and others have been saying on mainstream news programmes
    No one. That's the problem. I'm a Conservative voter. Sadiq Kahn, Campbell, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair woild have done better.

    The only person in the country who would have done worse is Jeremy Corbyn.
    That is not the view in the country.

    Not only polls showing Boris's popularity but more and more people are coming in behind him and also the chancellor, who is playing a key role

    So many of Boris's critics would attack him no matter what he did
    People rally behind the government in times of crisis unless the crisis was clearly caused by the government. Same is happening with Trump and hardly anybody thinks he's handled this well.

    I think Boris is doing fine, herd immunity strategy may yet prove to have been a costly mistake but who knows time will tell.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    Is that so? I thought people were being given fines for being out with no good reason in France:

    https://www.france24.com/en/20200318-france-coronavirus-lockdown-violation-attestation-epidemic-christophe-castaner-public-health
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    ABZ said:

    This is apparently the lake district at the moment...


    Cumbria is also a relative hotspot (like Devon).
    Depressingly, friends say the same is also true in Germany - with groups of younger people congregating outdoors. Amongst some people, there is a delusional sense of invincibility everywhere.
    In the media here in Germany there are indeed reports of Corona Parties, but I am suspicious of how many there actually are. The reports for all I know could be very over exaggerated as it makes a good story for the media. It is difficult for me to tell because I'm sticking to the advice and staing in as much as possible. Are your German friends just going by media reports or have they been congregating near large groups as well?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    There are just endless hours of home workouts for all abilities on YouTube. You can do HIIT training that will have you gassing in 20-30 mins in a very small space.

    And if you have a self-contained garden, you can obviously get out there and use basic bits of kit like a kettlebell.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    A huge number. Hundreds probably.
    There was No 10 statement that London would "never" be locked down so that one couldn't get in or out.

    Given the rate at which they are abandoning previous positions, it's hard to see that lasting. But can it be sealed off?
    I think it’s something like 160 including all the junctions. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that they’d keep Londoners where they are if they think drastic action is needed.
    Against about 20 crossings between England and Scotland. Come on Nicola - build the wall!
    Be surprised it is even close to 20, less than 5 main roads for sure.
    However given she has to ask Boris if she wants to sneeze I have doubts building will start soon.
    Police forces close roads all the time for safety issues would have thought Police scotland could do that and not aware there is a limit on how many roads are allowed to be closed at once.
    A bit different shutting one road in an emergency to blockading every road in the country, I think you will find neither police or Scottish Government have a fraction of those powers.
    PS: they had to wait on Boris before closing pubs , schools etc.
    Hard to imagine police Scotland would have the numbers to shut every road in the Highlands. However, closing the A9 and A82 to all but local traffic would presumably make a significant difference and would presumably not be impossible.
    The Tories and other assorted unionists would just love that, shit scared to do it themselves but would shout to the rafters if SNP were to even think of doing it. They should be taking instant action and not asking Westminster for permission on anything that they believe is necessary and is not being done by London. That would take leadership.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,274
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    I have a sheepdog that would go crazy if he didn't get a good run most days. The park is busier than usual this morning
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Its not too late for the government, but they really need to stop worrying about if it might scare people and errrh scare people.

    Within 2-3 weeks it will be so widespread, unless you keep the number of people you interact with very very small, you will come into contact with it. Even if you are getting deliveries, the probability that somebody in the supply chain has interacted with that and has it will be very high.

    The presumption has to start from everybody has it and everything you interact with outside of your home has been contaminated.

    You will be unlucky if you are infected by taking a delivery.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135
    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    I have a sheepdog that would go crazy if he didn't get a good run most days. The park is busier than usual this morning
    Exercising a dog probably comes under essential. Dogs can't exercise at home. People can and should.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    eristdoof said:

    Its not too late for the government, but they really need to stop worrying about if it might scare people and errrh scare people.

    Within 2-3 weeks it will be so widespread, unless you keep the number of people you interact with very very small, you will come into contact with it. Even if you are getting deliveries, the probability that somebody in the supply chain has interacted with that and has it will be very high.

    The presumption has to start from everybody has it and everything you interact with outside of your home has been contaminated.

    You will be unlucky if you are infected by taking a delivery.
    Are you in Germany @eristdoof? I just wondered what it feels like there.

    One of the (many) positives of PB is getting a few from outside the UK.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    eristdoof said:

    Its not too late for the government, but they really need to stop worrying about if it might scare people and errrh scare people.

    Within 2-3 weeks it will be so widespread, unless you keep the number of people you interact with very very small, you will come into contact with it. Even if you are getting deliveries, the probability that somebody in the supply chain has interacted with that and has it will be very high.

    The presumption has to start from everybody has it and everything you interact with outside of your home has been contaminated.

    You will be unlucky if you are infected by taking a delivery.
    You would, but I think it is better to start with that mindset. If people form the habit of presumption, rather than the opposite end of the scale, the small slip-ups that most people will make will be on the very low risk end, rather than high risk.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
    Extremely sensible. I believe the current view is 24hr virus survival on cardboard, so 48hrs seems sensible, assuming non-perishables are inside.
    What about plastic containers?
    Hard plastics are 3 days. This is the abstract of the recent paper:

    HCoV-19 (SARS-2) has caused >88,000 reported illnesses with a current case-fatality ratio of ~2%. Here, 34 we investigate the stability of viable HCoV-19 on surfaces and in aerosols in comparison with SARS35 CoV-1. Overall, stability is very similar between HCoV-19 and SARS-CoV-1. We found that viable virus could be detected in aerosols up to 3 hours post aerosolization, up to 4 hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard and up to 2-3 days on plastic and stainless steel. HCoV-19 and SARS-CoV-1 exhibited similar half-lives in aerosols, with median estimates around 2.7 hours. Both viruses show relatively long viability on stainless steel and polypropylene compared to copper or cardboard: the median half-life estimate for HCoV-19 is around 13 hours on steel and around 16 hours on polypropylene. Our results indicate that aerosol and fomite transmission of HCoV-19 is plausible, as the virus can remain viable in aerosols for multiple hours and on surfaces up to days.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519

    Is anyone surprised that herd immunity had Cummings’ fingers all over it?

    When a few of us pointed out that the strategy rested on assumptions which reporting from Korea, Japan et al already called into question, we were told to pipe down by the Tory fan-club.

    HYUFD was at that stage still recommending broth.

    Broth is still recommended, the majority of people with COVID 19 can be managed at home, even if a minority need hospitalisation
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    We are debating moving to my mother's once I am out of self-isolation as it would give us some outside space.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    Is that so? I thought people were being given fines for being out with no good reason in France:

    https://www.france24.com/en/20200318-france-coronavirus-lockdown-violation-attestation-epidemic-christophe-castaner-public-health
    Taking exercise counts as a good reason
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    I am getting rather pissed off at the repeated claim that staying at home for 12 months is near impossible. I understand the vulnerable who live on their own, but for most people, come on, these days there is infinite amount of shit to entertain you on the tv and internet, and we can all facetime / whatsapp our friends.

    How the f##k do you think people manage through years and years of the wars without any of this?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135
    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    We are debating moving to my mother's once I am out of self-isolation as it would give us some outside space.
    Outside space as in a private garden is a lot different to public space though Charles. It is public space we are talking about and some of those going out for walks have gardens to be out in just choosing to walk anyway
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671
    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Would anyone like to guess how many through roads pass over or under the M25?

    I thought it would be a useful thing to know in the event of needing stop Londoners escaping.

    A huge number. Hundreds probably.
    There was No 10 statement that London would "never" be locked down so that one couldn't get in or out.

    Given the rate at which they are abandoning previous positions, it's hard to see that lasting. But can it be sealed off?
    I think it’s something like 160 including all the junctions. I don’t think it’s completely out of the question that they’d keep Londoners where they are if they think drastic action is needed.
    Against about 20 crossings between England and Scotland. Come on Nicola - build the wall!
    Be surprised it is even close to 20, less than 5 main roads for sure.
    However given she has to ask Boris if she wants to sneeze I have doubts building will start soon.
    Police forces close roads all the time for safety issues would have thought Police scotland could do that and not aware there is a limit on how many roads are allowed to be closed at once.
    A bit different shutting one road in an emergency to blockading every road in the country, I think you will find neither police or Scottish Government have a fraction of those powers.
    PS: they had to wait on Boris before closing pubs , schools etc.
    Hard to imagine police Scotland would have the numbers to shut every road in the Highlands. However, closing the A9 and A82 to all but local traffic would presumably make a significant difference and would presumably not be impossible.
    I was more thinking just the roads in and out as I was responding to the build a wall idea
    Your thinking is popular in Scotland
    https://twitter.com/80_mcswan/status/1241682412825911296
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,854
    edited March 2020
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Because of the uturn the government messaging has been hopeless. Pathetic and contradictory. I don't say this lightly but bring in Campbell and Morgan and get them doing their thing.

    Who or what is Morgan?
    One can only hope it is not that imbecilic cretinous half-witted moron Piers
    He speaks very highly of you!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,156

    I am getting rather pissed off at the repeated claim that staying at home for 12 months is near impossible. I understand the vulnerable who live on their own, but for most people, come on, these days there is infinite amount of shit to entertain you on the tv and internet, and we can all facetime / whatsapp our friends.

    How the f##k do you think people manage through years and years of the wars without any of this?

    Agreed. Home delivery is the key - it makes a massive difference that I could order some hand cream today and it will arrive tomorrow...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    edited March 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    If you are in a 1 bed flat as I am then no you cannot 'exercise perfectly well at home', you don't have a garden either.

    It is not being selfish at all there is no reason not to go out to walk and take exercise and look after your physical and mental health and as long as you do not get too close to others and the government advice at the moment is entirely right in allowing it.

    It is allowed while social distancing, if however you are social isolating and have Covid 19 symptoms then yes you stay home for 7 to 14 days but only if you have symptoms
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Because of the uturn the government messaging has been hopeless. Pathetic and contradictory. I don't say this lightly but bring in Campbell and Morgan and get them doing their thing.

    Who or what is Morgan?
    One can only hope it is not that imbecilic cretinous half-witted moron Piers
    He spaks very highly of you!
    That word is not PC now... :wink:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,488

    eristdoof said:

    Its not too late for the government, but they really need to stop worrying about if it might scare people and errrh scare people.

    Within 2-3 weeks it will be so widespread, unless you keep the number of people you interact with very very small, you will come into contact with it. Even if you are getting deliveries, the probability that somebody in the supply chain has interacted with that and has it will be very high.

    The presumption has to start from everybody has it and everything you interact with outside of your home has been contaminated.

    You will be unlucky if you are infected by taking a delivery.
    Are you in Germany @eristdoof? I just wondered what it feels like there.

    One of the (many) positives of PB is getting a few from outside the UK.
    I have had a WhatsApp from Malaysian medical friend in KL. It is becoming more of an issue there every day. I think relying on things warming up curing it is a rather forlorn hope.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,314
    Gadfly said:

    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
    Extremely sensible. I believe the current view is 24hr survival on cardboard, so 48hrs seems sensible, assuming non-perishables are inside.
    24 hours cardboard, 48 hours stainless steel, 72 hours certain plastics.
    How about letters in the post? Count as cardboard?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    Foxy said:

    eristdoof said:

    Its not too late for the government, but they really need to stop worrying about if it might scare people and errrh scare people.

    Within 2-3 weeks it will be so widespread, unless you keep the number of people you interact with very very small, you will come into contact with it. Even if you are getting deliveries, the probability that somebody in the supply chain has interacted with that and has it will be very high.

    The presumption has to start from everybody has it and everything you interact with outside of your home has been contaminated.

    You will be unlucky if you are infected by taking a delivery.
    Are you in Germany @eristdoof? I just wondered what it feels like there.

    One of the (many) positives of PB is getting a few from outside the UK.
    I have had a WhatsApp from Malaysian medical friend in KL. It is becoming more of an issue there every day. I think relying on things warming up curing it is a rather forlorn hope.
    And Australia....now it is definitely far more widespread than just the original set of imported cases and their close contacts.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    If you are in a 1 bed flat as I am then no you cannot 'exercise perfectly well at home', you don't have a garden either.

    It is not being selfish at all there is no reason not to go out to walk and take exercise as long as you do not get too close to others and the government advice at the moment is entirely right in allowing it.

    Total and utter piffle as usual. I live in a studio flat 16 x 10 into which fits my kitchen and shower and bed and work desk so probably got less space than you and I manage to exercise perfectly well. I don't even have the benefit of a window merely a skylight. If I can manage so can you.

    You don't have spout a load of drivel
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,274
    Mortimer said:

    I am getting rather pissed off at the repeated claim that staying at home for 12 months is near impossible. I understand the vulnerable who live on their own, but for most people, come on, these days there is infinite amount of shit to entertain you on the tv and internet, and we can all facetime / whatsapp our friends.

    How the f##k do you think people manage through years and years of the wars without any of this?

    Agreed. Home delivery is the key - it makes a massive difference that I could order some hand cream today and it will arrive tomorrow...
    Cases of wine still arrive within a day or two, more critically
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    I have a sheepdog that would go crazy if he didn't get a good run most days. The park is busier than usual this morning
    Exercising a dog probably comes under essential. Dogs can't exercise at home. People can and should.
    You can take the dog out in Spain but no further than 50 meters from your home.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,156

    eristdoof said:

    Its not too late for the government, but they really need to stop worrying about if it might scare people and errrh scare people.

    Within 2-3 weeks it will be so widespread, unless you keep the number of people you interact with very very small, you will come into contact with it. Even if you are getting deliveries, the probability that somebody in the supply chain has interacted with that and has it will be very high.

    The presumption has to start from everybody has it and everything you interact with outside of your home has been contaminated.

    You will be unlucky if you are infected by taking a delivery.
    You would, but I think it is better to start with that mindset. If people form the habit of presumption, rather than the opposite end of the scale, the small slip-ups that most people will make will be on the very low risk end, rather than high risk.
    Again, I totally agree.

    Boxes remain unopened for 36 hours in the Mortimer household!!

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546

    Gadfly said:

    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
    Extremely sensible. I believe the current view is 24hr survival on cardboard, so 48hrs seems sensible, assuming non-perishables are inside.
    24 hours cardboard, 48 hours stainless steel, 72 hours certain plastics.
    How about letters in the post? Count as cardboard?
    Just don't touch them if you don't need to. 99% of letters are non-urgent, so just leave them for a few days.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    eristdoof said:

    Its not too late for the government, but they really need to stop worrying about if it might scare people and errrh scare people.

    Within 2-3 weeks it will be so widespread, unless you keep the number of people you interact with very very small, you will come into contact with it. Even if you are getting deliveries, the probability that somebody in the supply chain has interacted with that and has it will be very high.

    The presumption has to start from everybody has it and everything you interact with outside of your home has been contaminated.

    You will be unlucky if you are infected by taking a delivery.
    I’m obviously not an expert and am following all the official guidance re: surfaces etc.

    However, I can’t help but think that some of the claims about this are rather overblown/extreme. Obviously there is evidence that the virus stays on surfaces, and possibility of transmission as a result, but the risks must be extremely low. It just does not compute that people on average infect 2-3 people if huge numbers can get infected through passing contact with random surfaces. Not that it can’t happen and each extra case that happens can/will subsequently multiply, but in general it won’t. I also suspect that not all transmission is alike and some transmission will result in far more dangerous cases. A carrier coughing in your face is more deadly in general (on an individual basis) than a handshake. This explains why young and healthy doctors are dying, when other similar profiled people are not. When they are exposed they are both likely to be exposed by serious cases and through “dangerous” transmission methods. Which is why they need our total support.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,854
    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    We are debating moving to my mother's once I am out of self-isolation as it would give us some outside space.
    Cut the (very small) lawn yesterday; first cut this year, and my wife did some assorted tending to (potential) flowers.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,156
    nichomar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    I have a sheepdog that would go crazy if he didn't get a good run most days. The park is busier than usual this morning
    Exercising a dog probably comes under essential. Dogs can't exercise at home. People can and should.
    You can take the dog out in Spain but no further than 50 meters from your home.
    It takes a lot of effort, but you can exercise your dog in even a small flat/house. Lots of treat and scent based exercises, some agility, some catch, ball chasing etc.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    On topic. They are really offering 10.1 on Nandy? Are they insane? The corbynites will be kept away from the fiscal brief, so home affairs or foreign affairs may seem a nice promotion for RLB, but it’s really not. 2 interesting ones. Brexit/EU brief, Benn perhaps? And environment is going to become increasingly key for centre left parties, important to have a popular but realistic plan, who will get that?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,156
    IanB2 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I am getting rather pissed off at the repeated claim that staying at home for 12 months is near impossible. I understand the vulnerable who live on their own, but for most people, come on, these days there is infinite amount of shit to entertain you on the tv and internet, and we can all facetime / whatsapp our friends.

    How the f##k do you think people manage through years and years of the wars without any of this?

    Agreed. Home delivery is the key - it makes a massive difference that I could order some hand cream today and it will arrive tomorrow...
    Cases of wine still arrive within a day or two, more critically
    We've switched to half bottles already :-)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    If you are in a 1 bed flat as I am then no you cannot 'exercise perfectly well at home', you don't have a garden either.

    Bollocks. You can do HIIT training in a really small area of space. Doing something like a burpie requires hardly any space at all. And all the variations of press-ups, sit-ups, planks...the list is endless.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,193

    Gadfly said:

    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
    Extremely sensible. I believe the current view is 24hr survival on cardboard, so 48hrs seems sensible, assuming non-perishables are inside.
    24 hours cardboard, 48 hours stainless steel, 72 hours certain plastics.
    How about letters in the post? Count as cardboard?
    My letters don't get touched for at least 2 days and I'm even more wary of things that arrive in polythene. I'm driving Mrs Gadfly mad with my obsessiveness, but we've both got underlying issues, and one slip up could kill us both.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,990

    Part of Boris' problem is he loves to waffle and the press keep asking the most stupid questions to which he engages for far too long.

    Boris should deliberately lose his rag, tell a journalist to "stop asking fucking stupid questions", have bit of a rant about thousands of easily avoidable deaths, and then walk out.

    Maybe then some of the "journalists" might get it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    Is that so? I thought people were being given fines for being out with no good reason in France:

    https://www.france24.com/en/20200318-france-coronavirus-lockdown-violation-attestation-epidemic-christophe-castaner-public-health
    Taking exercise counts as a good reason
    No. It doesn't.

    There are plenty of no equipment workouts on you tube
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    So in todays "proud to be British news"....

    Son and girlfriend were at Tesco's earlier making use of the NHS hour

    Police had to be called as a fight broke out because non NHS staff were demanding access too.

    Just wonderful....
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,135

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    If you are in a 1 bed flat as I am then no you cannot 'exercise perfectly well at home', you don't have a garden either.

    Bollocks. You can do HIIT training in a really small area of space. Doing something like a burpie requires hardly any space at all. And all the variations of press-ups, sit-ups, planks...the list is endless.
    Also for anyone with a vr hmd I can recommend beat saber for some exercise
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    glw said:

    Part of Boris' problem is he loves to waffle and the press keep asking the most stupid questions to which he engages for far too long.

    Boris should deliberately lose his rag, tell a journalist to "stop asking fucking stupid questions", have bit of a rant about thousands of easily avoidable deaths, and then walk out.

    Maybe then some of the "journalists" might get it.
    It would certainly get the headlines.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,156
    Gadfly said:

    Gadfly said:

    Gadfly said:

    Pagan2 said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    You will still touch surfaces along the way quite possibly with out thinking about it.

    The button on the crossing, the latch on a gate, run your hand along a railing while climbing stairs, a stile etc etc
    Some believe that a ninth floor lift button may have ultimately caused 4000 SARS infections.

    When this virus has been demonstrated to survive for up to 72 hours on certain surfaces, I look on with horror when I see kindly volunteers handing elderly people plastic carrier bags containing shopping with a certain horror.
    Again, the government messaging needs to be way stronger on this. Anything anybody else has touched, act as if it is infected.

    I have had a few deliveries over the past 2-3 weeks, I do not answer the door, they are left outside, I do not pick them up if I don't have to and if I do, I don't touch them with my hands and they are not opened for several days. And even then I take huge care if washing hands straight away.
    Extremely sensible. I believe the current view is 24hr survival on cardboard, so 48hrs seems sensible, assuming non-perishables are inside.
    24 hours cardboard, 48 hours stainless steel, 72 hours certain plastics.
    How about letters in the post? Count as cardboard?
    My letters don't get touched for at least 2 days and I'm even more wary of things that arrive in polythene. I'm driving Mrs Gadfly mad with my obsessiveness, but we've both got underlying issues, and one slip up could kill us both.
    Snap. The OH is getting very annoyed at my small acts of rationing (a tin of soup between us, for example, rather than one each) and constant reminder to wash her hands. And she is the one with Asthma!!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pagan2 said:

    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    We are debating moving to my mother's once I am out of self-isolation as it would give us some outside space.
    Outside space as in a private garden is a lot different to public space though Charles. It is public space we are talking about and some of those going out for walks have gardens to be out in just choosing to walk anyway
    I know. That's why we are considering moving. It is a luxury that we don't have in London and it would be irresponsible to go to the parks.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,904
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I see a lot of people criticising others for being stupid and socialising/congregating/going out in what they perceive risky ways

    I see a lot of the same people saying I can't see how I could catch it just going out for a walk where is the harm in that.

    The thinking for both sets of actions however is the same "I can't see the harm"

    Just saying

    If you cannot see the difference between taking a walk whilst socially distancing or meeting up and socialising with friends....I can draw you a picture if you like..
    Indeed, even in France and Italy you can still go out for a walk and exercise provided you keep a few metres from others, if people don't get any exercise they will end up even worse both physically and mentally
    People can exercise perfectly well at home, they choose not to because they want to go out so it really isn't an excuse its being selfish and putting others at unnecessary risk. I am sure France and Italy will soon follow Spain in saying its not a legitimate reason to be out.
    If you are in a 1 bed flat as I am then no you cannot 'exercise perfectly well at home', you don't have a garden either.

    It is not being selfish at all there is no reason not to go out to walk and take exercise as long as you do not get too close to others and the government advice at the moment is entirely right in allowing it.

    Total and utter piffle as usual. I live in a studio flat 16 x 10 into which fits my kitchen and shower and bed and work desk so probably got less space than you and I manage to exercise perfectly well. I don't even have the benefit of a window merely a skylight. If I can manage so can you.

    You don't have spout a load of drivel
    Much as it pains me to quote the Guardian -

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/feb/01/fitness-tips-royal-canadian-air-force-five-basic-exercises

    My father has used the book of these exercises to keep himself fit for years.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    glw said:

    Part of Boris' problem is he loves to waffle and the press keep asking the most stupid questions to which he engages for far too long.

    Boris should deliberately lose his rag, tell a journalist to "stop asking fucking stupid questions", have bit of a rant about thousands of easily avoidable deaths, and then walk out.

    Maybe then some of the "journalists" might get it.
    Even then I doubt it
This discussion has been closed.