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  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited March 2020

    A friend of mine went into Sainsburys mid morning just as the last of the shoppers were leaving with their trollies full of loo roll from the morning delivery.

    Good for them :+1:

    I buy food when I go to the supermarket. I can wipe my bum with just about any scrap of paper of cloth, but food is much harder to come by, so it is nice to know that I have the run of the shop whilst civil war erupts in the loo section.

  • Given that neither the Department of Health, nor their EU counterparts are (to my knowledge) negotiating Brexit, can anyone actually give a good reason for extending the transition period, other than the fact that they really really really don't want Brexit, and this has given them a glimmer of hope that its accomplishment might be staved off again? I mean really.

    Brexit has happened. It is bizarre that there are still people who fail to understand this.

    Tell Alastair

    He is like the Japanese soldier in the jungle 29 years after the war who thought it was still going on
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Given that neither the Department of Health, nor their EU counterparts are (to my knowledge) negotiating Brexit, can anyone actually give a good reason for extending the transition period, other than the fact that they really really really don't want Brexit, and this has given them a glimmer of hope that its accomplishment might be staved off again? I mean really.

    Because this involves a very aspect of Government on both sides of the Channel, not just the Departments of Health. Off the top of my head I have seen announcements and briefings from Education, Health, Foreign Office, Trade and Industry, Transport, Defence, Local Authorities, Business, Housing and Communities, Agriculture and loads more.

    We have left the EU. We are not going back. If we have to postpone the transition period for a year then that is a bit more money we have to pay but in the grand scheme of things it is nothing.

    Deal with this first and then afterwards we can get on with finishing the negotiations when everyone has a bit more time and might hopefully be a bit more friendly to each other.
    Why would anyone to negotiate a deal when you have no idea what the world will look like in six months?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Andrew said:

    Another +13% in Italy. Definitely dropping.

    What is the position for the UK in that respect?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570

    Given that neither the Department of Health, nor their EU counterparts are (to my knowledge) negotiating Brexit, can anyone actually give a good reason for extending the transition period, other than the fact that they really really really don't want Brexit, and this has given them a glimmer of hope that its accomplishment might be staved off again? I mean really.

    Because this involves a very aspect of Government on both sides of the Channel, not just the Departments of Health. Off the top of my head I have seen announcements and briefings from Education, Health, Foreign Office, Trade and Industry, Transport, Defence, Local Authorities, Business, Housing and Communities, Agriculture and loads more.

    We have left the EU. We are not going back. If we have to postpone the transition period for a year then that is a bit more money we have to pay but in the grand scheme of things it is nothing.

    Deal with this first and then afterwards we can get on with finishing the negotiations when everyone has a bit more time and might hopefully be a bit more friendly to each other.
    I have not heard that the negotiating teams are being unfriendly - certainly there's no reason to do so, either now or later.
    I was just talking generally about the atmosphere between the UK and the EU. But that is a distraction. The point is that there are far more important things for everyone in Government on both sides of the Channel to be doing than worrying about future trade relationships.

    For a start we don't seem to have cottoned on to the fact that this crisis - or at least the economic aspects of it - may massively change many of the ways we do things anyway. How do the EU and the UK discuss the terms of Support for Business and Industry and a level playing field when both sides are currently looking at pumping vast billions into just that sort of support?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    What, that thing you champion all the time?

    Well yes - but punching up is good, punching down is not. And we get so much more of the latter. In fact it's the status quo.

    That said, as a few posters have pointed out, rents are harder in practice for the government to deal with than mortgages.

    Big Issue though. Quite literally for some people if not addressed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,373
    AlanS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Getting a bit frustrated with the chaos, delays and shortages at Waitrose, so I just wandered down the local co-op. There were a few shoppers with half filled baskets but the place was pretty empty. All shelves were full, they even had nine packs of soft toilet rolls, so I am now well stocked up. If only the Waitrose website was working I could delete the toilet paper I have ordered for delivery from them.

    If you are short of anything, find a co-op!

    New Supermarket coronavirus LIMITS:

    ASDA: 2 hand sanitisers and 4 pack toilet rolls

    TESCO: 1 hand sanitiser, 500g of rice and 4 pack toilet rolls

    WAITROSE: 1 lobster, 6 quails eggs and 100g Foie Gras

    ALDI: a MIG welder, a pink sports bra, 2 trumpets and 1 wetsuit

    I found that re the Coop too and other local shops
    A friend of mine went into Sainsburys mid morning just as the last of the shoppers were leaving with their trollies full of loo roll from the morning delivery.

    Anyway, he was chatting with one of the checkout lads who said they have warehouses full of stuff. They are short of nothing except hand sanitiser. But no matter how often they tell the shoppers this, every morning when the lorry turns up with the days resupply it is stripped bare by hoarders. Ridiculous.
    Crazy. I mean hand sanitizer consumption has risen, but no-one’s using more loo roll. Must just be building up in people’s homes.
    It's almost as if people are expecting to spend the next few months in doors, shopping as little as possible.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Felipe VI will address the nation at 21:00
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    JM1 said:

    Why do you think it will be as high as 80K deaths? Say we have 20K deaths this wave (high end) I'm curious as to where the 80K comes from...

    I'm being cautious.

    It's weird this board.

    Yesterday evening, I was arguing with @WhisperingOracle and @eadric about whether this was going to be as bad as the World Wars (only with the million plus deaths all the deaths being in one year).

    Now we're talking about perhaps 20,000 deaths - or a rather bad flu season.
    And the world economy spaffed up the wall finally and forever.
    Is it completely beyond the realm of imagination that every country could get together after the crisis and say 'Whatever your national debt is, cut the last two zeroes off it and pretend it never happened'?
    The money that is owed by governments to central banks will never be paid back. So, UK debt to GDP is 60%, not 90%.
    Most of the rest of the debt will never be paid back either.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    Labour's mess was blowing the budget wide open before the crisis.

    Deficit is about the same then as now. Debt much lower. NHS in better health.

    We enter this crisis in much worse shape. Such is undeniable.

    If that was Labour's Mess, this is a bigger Tory one.

    Works both ways. Sorry.
    Deficit was falling before this hit for a decade, deficit was unnecessarily increased by Brown. If there's a mess now its a legacy of Labour's mess.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    JM1 said:

    Why do you think it will be as high as 80K deaths? Say we have 20K deaths this wave (high end) I'm curious as to where the 80K comes from...

    I'm being cautious.

    It's weird this board.

    Yesterday evening, I was arguing with @WhisperingOracle and @eadric about whether this was going to be as bad as the World Wars (only with the million plus deaths all the deaths being in one year).

    Now we're talking about perhaps 20,000 deaths - or a rather bad flu season.
    And the world economy spaffed up the wall finally and forever.
    Is it completely beyond the realm of imagination that every country could get together after the crisis and say 'Whatever your national debt is, cut the last two zeroes off it and pretend it never happened'?
    The money that is owed by governments to central banks will never be paid back. So, UK debt to GDP is 60%, not 90%.
    Most of the rest of the debt will never be paid back either.
    The rest of the debt will be paid back technically. New loans will be issued to repay the old ones.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Given that neither the Department of Health, nor their EU counterparts are (to my knowledge) negotiating Brexit, can anyone actually give a good reason for extending the transition period, other than the fact that they really really really don't want Brexit, and this has given them a glimmer of hope that its accomplishment might be staved off again? I mean really.

    Because this involves a very aspect of Government on both sides of the Channel, not just the Departments of Health. Off the top of my head I have seen announcements and briefings from Education, Health, Foreign Office, Trade and Industry, Transport, Defence, Local Authorities, Business, Housing and Communities, Agriculture and loads more.

    We have left the EU. We are not going back. If we have to postpone the transition period for a year then that is a bit more money we have to pay but in the grand scheme of things it is nothing.

    Deal with this first and then afterwards we can get on with finishing the negotiations when everyone has a bit more time and might hopefully be a bit more friendly to each other.
    I have not heard that the negotiating teams are being unfriendly - certainly there's no reason to do so, either now or later.
    I was just talking generally about the atmosphere between the UK and the EU. But that is a distraction. The point is that there are far more important things for everyone in Government on both sides of the Channel to be doing than worrying about future trade relationships.

    For a start we don't seem to have cottoned on to the fact that this crisis - or at least the economic aspects of it - may massively change many of the ways we do things anyway. How do the EU and the UK discuss the terms of Support for Business and Industry and a level playing field when both sides are currently looking at pumping vast billions into just that sort of support?
    By putting in a clause about Acts of God.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    eadric said:


    It's happened, but we are still in the EU, technically speaking,

    No, technically speaking - de jure we are out. There's no will for a referendum to head back in now, but the shape of our relationship outside the EU is up for grabs.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    ydoethur said:

    Laura Kuennsberg is reading PB. Or Labour is, perhaps.

    Anyone reading PB would have been able to pull the budget apart as inadequate when it was made.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    Helicopter grants to tenants is the answer.
  • Yeah, China doesn't have anything to hide, we can believe their numbers.

    https://twitter.com/Yueqi_Yang/status/1239951479097774083
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    AlanS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Getting a bit frustrated with the chaos, delays and shortages at Waitrose, so I just wandered down the local co-op. There were a few shoppers with half filled baskets but the place was pretty empty. All shelves were full, they even had nine packs of soft toilet rolls, so I am now well stocked up. If only the Waitrose website was working I could delete the toilet paper I have ordered for delivery from them.

    If you are short of anything, find a co-op!

    New Supermarket coronavirus LIMITS:

    ASDA: 2 hand sanitisers and 4 pack toilet rolls

    TESCO: 1 hand sanitiser, 500g of rice and 4 pack toilet rolls

    WAITROSE: 1 lobster, 6 quails eggs and 100g Foie Gras

    ALDI: a MIG welder, a pink sports bra, 2 trumpets and 1 wetsuit

    I found that re the Coop too and other local shops
    A friend of mine went into Sainsburys mid morning just as the last of the shoppers were leaving with their trollies full of loo roll from the morning delivery.

    Anyway, he was chatting with one of the checkout lads who said they have warehouses full of stuff. They are short of nothing except hand sanitiser. But no matter how often they tell the shoppers this, every morning when the lorry turns up with the days resupply it is stripped bare by hoarders. Ridiculous.
    Crazy. I mean hand sanitizer consumption has risen, but no-one’s using more loo roll. Must just be building up in people’s homes.
    It's almost as if people are expecting to spend the next few months in doors, shopping as little as possible.
    Indoors and not using the toilets at work or school, so domestic use of toilet rolls will increase (and I was wrong earlier).
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    According to Peter Foster, the government is manoeuvring to a Brexit extension, but is deploying the rhetoric to avoid giving its cult members apoplexy (paraphrasing a bit here).

    This is an interesting tweet in the thread. If UK businesses and organisations are ill prepared for self inflicted Brexit damage now, they will be in an even worse shape once they have been hollowed by the coronavirus.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1239952945980092422
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    +1 - the only solution I can see that works is for landlords to take it on the chin and for courts to deny evictions for none payment where it's proven to be related to coronavirus...

    Anything else really isn't going to play well (and I know the above won't be liked by landlords but all options are bad).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited March 2020
    Floater said:

    Center parcs are closing from Friday - they will continue to pay their staff

    That's really good news for the staff, though how long they can sustain that situation I'm not sure.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    Yes, i agree with you.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    The support package is vast and I hope those opponents who keep attacking HMG finally accept that we must unify over this national crisis

    Tell your party leader to stop dangling no deal Brexit over the country's heads as a weapon and you might be heeded.
    I do not think Brexit is even in the mix at this time.

    We have left and an agreement with the EU may have to be delayed but we will not rejoin
    Only today the government reaffirmed that it is hellbent on ending the transition period on 31 December, with or without a deal. They're obsessed.
    I really don’t understand why. It’s astonishing. None of us leaver voters surely would care if it was delayed. This is the ultimate black swan.
    That's not true. There are shoals of maniacal Leavers who have spent half of this crisis finding new and innovative ways to criticise the EU for its handling of it or to fantasise about how the EU is going to fall as a result. This is all of a piece with their pathological hatred of it.
    On today of all days you continue your rant on brexit when no one is listening

    Far bigger things worry the country now
    And yet the government remains hell bent on its self-imposed deadline as of today, threatening the country with yet more disruption. Perhaps you could admit (through gritted teeth if you must) that the lunatics that you support have got wickedly wrong priorities just now.
    I will not bow to your obsession
    It's the government's obsession. Their deadline. Their threatened chaos. And you cheerlead for it.
    It's the reason Boris got a huge majority.

    And it's the law.
    The prime minister has never been terribly keen on the law.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited March 2020
    eadric said:

    nichomar said:

    Felipe VI will address the nation at 21:00

    Didn't Spain have slightly fewer new cases today? Tho quite a lot of deaths.

    There is now evidence from across Europe - albeit tentative - that these lockdowns work in Western societies, as they did in East Asia.

    The question is what happens when you relax the strictures.....
    If we trust the Chinese, not much.

    We don't know if this is correct yet, ofcourse.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    The Courts won't be sitting in a couple of weeks, no chance of a possession order section 8, 21 or otherwise
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,358

    tlg86 said:

    Can tell no journalists rent, nobody has asked the question we picked up on about rent v mortgage.

    Didn't Laura K ask about that first up?
    I missed it if so, what was the answer? She asked about the loans etc being set up next week, what happens for people having issues this week.
    Desperate if you cannot last a few days
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    +1 - the only solution I can see that works is for landlords to take it on the chin and for courts to deny evictions for none payment where it's proven to be related to coronavirus...

    Anything else really isn't going to play well (and I know the above won't be liked by landlords but all options are bad).
    I`d hate to be a landlord at the moment. Many will sell-up surely? I suppose they`d be stiffed on the sale price though?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    The Courts won't be sitting in a couple of weeks, no chance of a possession order section 8, 21 or otherwise
    Better to come to an arrangement to at least cover costs etc.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,358
    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    spire2 said:

    The lockdown will not last as long as many anticipate. Once new cases start dropping theres going to be huge pressure on the government from business to relax restrictions.Also so many people are psychologically unable to survive lack of social contact and will start demanding reopening of bars, restaurants etc.

    I predict the very people agitating for `Lockdown Now' will -- after 6 weeks in a house with their cooped-up children -- be the ones agitating for `End to House Arrest'.
    I live in a beautiful and very quiet part of Spain. After just 3 days I'm aching for the lockdown to end and am generally law-abiding and compliant. Believe me I am used to things being very quiet and staying in - but this is awful.
    Something far wrong with you if you cannot amuse yourself for 3 days.
    Malc - underneath the bluster I think you're ok -but understand please the impact of compulsion. It's like the joy of retirement is all about the freedom of choice it brings rather than what you do or don't do. I stay in a lot through choice. Knowing if I go out now I can be stopped and sent home again is bloody hard.
    Felix you have to go with the flow, don't sweat the small stuff or worry about stuff you cannot change, sit back and have a beer. Think yourself lucky you are not stuck in here looking out at pissing rain with heating at full blast. Now you have me at it. Time for a beer.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited March 2020
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    +1 - the only solution I can see that works is for landlords to take it on the chin and for courts to deny evictions for none payment where it's proven to be related to coronavirus...

    Anything else really isn't going to play well (and I know the above won't be liked by landlords but all options are bad).
    I have just texted my tenant saying that the option of a rent holiday is available if she needs it.

    However (a) as she’s public sector she’s probably OK and (b) as I don’t actually rely on the rent for my income (at least, not at the moment) that’s easy for me to say.

    Moreover, I don’t think TSE and I are typical landlords. Most of them (I find myself in reluctant agreement with MaxPB) will still want paying.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    The support package is vast and I hope those opponents who keep attacking HMG finally accept that we must unify over this national crisis

    Tell your party leader to stop dangling no deal Brexit over the country's heads as a weapon and you might be heeded.
    I do not think Brexit is even in the mix at this time.

    We have left and an agreement with the EU may have to be delayed but we will not rejoin
    Only today the government reaffirmed that it is hellbent on ending the transition period on 31 December, with or without a deal. They're obsessed.
    I really don’t understand why. It’s astonishing. None of us leaver voters surely would care if it was delayed. This is the ultimate black swan.
    That's not true. There are shoals of maniacal Leavers who have spent half of this crisis finding new and innovative ways to criticise the EU for its handling of it or to fantasise about how the EU is going to fall as a result. This is all of a piece with their pathological hatred of it.
    On today of all days you continue your rant on brexit when no one is listening

    Far bigger things worry the country now
    And yet the government remains hell bent on its self-imposed deadline as of today, threatening the country with yet more disruption. Perhaps you could admit (through gritted teeth if you must) that the lunatics that you support have got wickedly wrong priorities just now.
    I will not bow to your obsession
    It's the government's obsession. Their deadline. Their threatened chaos. And you cheerlead for it.
    It's the reason Boris got a huge majority.

    And it's the law.
    The prime minister has never been terribly keen on the law.
    As Prime Minister? Citation required.....
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Can tell no journalists rent, nobody has asked the question we picked up on about rent v mortgage.

    Didn't Laura K ask about that first up?
    I missed it if so, what was the answer? She asked about the loans etc being set up next week, what happens for people having issues this week.
    Desperate if you cannot last a few days
    Loads are people are going to be desperate. I heard a self employed guy on the radio today saying that his work had dried-up overnight. He has two children in university and a mortgage to pay. I know I won`t be popular for saying so, but putting health as the one-and-only concern without giving equal weighting to economics and freedom is a monumental mistake.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    THIS THREAD HAS GONE TO COLLECT ITS BORIS BUNG.....
  • eadric said:

    Given that neither the Department of Health, nor their EU counterparts are (to my knowledge) negotiating Brexit, can anyone actually give a good reason for extending the transition period, other than the fact that they really really really don't want Brexit, and this has given them a glimmer of hope that its accomplishment might be staved off again? I mean really.

    Brexit has happened. It is bizarre that there are still people who fail to understand this.

    It's happened, but we are still in the EU, technically speaking, so it hasn't happened.

    It's quantum.

    I cannot see Brexit being magically reversed now, unless coronavirus is so apocalyptic there is no EU as we know it to finally leave. God knows what happens then.

    I can easily see it being paused by 6 months or a year, if the virus is still around in the Autumn. Only the most maniacal of Leavers would put Brexit over saving the health of the nations.
    Good to agree
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    +1 - the only solution I can see that works is for landlords to take it on the chin and for courts to deny evictions for none payment where it's proven to be related to coronavirus...

    Anything else really isn't going to play well (and I know the above won't be liked by landlords but all options are bad).
    I`d hate to be a landlord at the moment. Many will sell-up surely? I suppose they`d be stiffed on the sale price though?
    Most will probably start selling up from next month anyway, as new rules are going to make it much harder to let properties built before the 1990s.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1239980923099271169

    Pubs / restaurants allowed to make delivery servies.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Evening all :)

    There's this nagging question in my mind - if you believe in capitalism and the market then you have to accept sometimes there are circumstances under which businesses fail. It's regrettable but nothing lasts forever or has a right to immortality at the taxpayer's expense.

    If some businesses fail, others will take over, Part of the spirit of an entrepreneurial society is to see opportunities in the misfortune of others, to develop a more successful business model, to see the evolutionary trends and not remain mired in the things have always been done.

    Jobs lost are regrettable of course but job losses can be balanced by new job creation using skills and working practices which are better suited - better, more productive jobs which improve the lot of the individual, their community and society and the economy as a whole.

    Change happens - sometimes that change is dramatic and violent, sometimes it's slow and controllable but it happens.

    Businesses must be allowed to fail so new enterprises can replace them and move the economy forward. It's Darwinist and brutal and I realise that but that's how economies function unless you prefer State-controlled stagnation but I thought we didn't in this country.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    The support package is vast and I hope those opponents who keep attacking HMG finally accept that we must unify over this national crisis

    Tell your party leader to stop dangling no deal Brexit over the country's heads as a weapon and you might be heeded.
    I do not think Brexit is even in the mix at this time.

    We have left and an agreement with the EU may have to be delayed but we will not rejoin
    Only today the government reaffirmed that it is hellbent on ending the transition period on 31 December, with or without a deal. They're obsessed.
    I really don’t understand why. It’s astonishing. None of us leaver voters surely would care if it was delayed. This is the ultimate black swan.
    That's not true. There are shoals of maniacal Leavers who have spent half of this crisis finding new and innovative ways to criticise the EU for its handling of it or to fantasise about how the EU is going to fall as a result. This is all of a piece with their pathological hatred of it.
    On today of all days you continue your rant on brexit when no one is listening

    Far bigger things worry the country now
    And yet the government remains hell bent on its self-imposed deadline as of today, threatening the country with yet more disruption. Perhaps you could admit (through gritted teeth if you must) that the lunatics that you support have got wickedly wrong priorities just now.
    I will not bow to your obsession
    It's the government's obsession. Their deadline. Their threatened chaos. And you cheerlead for it.
    It's the reason Boris got a huge majority.

    And it's the law.
    The prime minister has never been terribly keen on the law.
    Alastair - why do you care so much about this? It`s extraordinary. I hate to say it but it looks like your motivation is self -interest in some way ahead of what is best for the country. And I`m a remainer saying this!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Oh my goodness : 'This current pandemic has already proved to be causing the greatest damage to those that have not prioritised their health in the past and therefore exposing themselves and putting themselves in a high risk category.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8122089/London-gym-causes-outrage-says-coronavirus-failed-prioritise-health-past.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ico=taboola_feed_desktop_tvshowbiz

    Tbh the last place I'd go right now is a high end London gym, everyone back from skiing etc...They'll be renamed P45 before the end of the week I suspect.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    There's this nagging question in my mind - if you believe in capitalism and the market then you have to accept sometimes there are circumstances under which businesses fail. It's regrettable but nothing lasts forever or has a right to immortality at the taxpayer's expense.

    If some businesses fail, others will take over, Part of the spirit of an entrepreneurial society is to see opportunities in the misfortune of others, to develop a more successful business model, to see the evolutionary trends and not remain mired in the things have always been done.

    Jobs lost are regrettable of course but job losses can be balanced by new job creation using skills and working practices which are better suited - better, more productive jobs which improve the lot of the individual, their community and society and the economy as a whole.

    Change happens - sometimes that change is dramatic and violent, sometimes it's slow and controllable but it happens.

    Businesses must be allowed to fail so new enterprises can replace them and move the economy forward. It's Darwinist and brutal and I realise that but that's how economies function unless you prefer State-controlled stagnation but I thought we didn't in this country.

    Freedoms are being binned for sure - but I do think that the current circumstance is unique and which requires more than a bare capitalist system can provide.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    eadric said:

    Given that neither the Department of Health, nor their EU counterparts are (to my knowledge) negotiating Brexit, can anyone actually give a good reason for extending the transition period, other than the fact that they really really really don't want Brexit, and this has given them a glimmer of hope that its accomplishment might be staved off again? I mean really.

    Brexit has happened. It is bizarre that there are still people who fail to understand this.

    It's happened, but we are still in the EU, technically speaking, so it hasn't happened.

    It's quantum.

    I cannot see Brexit being magically reversed now, unless coronavirus is so apocalyptic there is no EU as we know it to finally leave. God knows what happens then.

    I can easily see it being paused by 6 months or a year, if the virus is still around in the Autumn. Only the most maniacal of Leavers would put Brexit over saving the health of the nations.
    The government has more important things to do right now. And so does the EU. The ECB have taken some steps to reduce the fiscal constraints on member states but has so far done very little on the monetary side to ease the crisis. They really need the sort of package the Bank of England has provided today. It is really important to us, as well as the EU, that the ECB steps up to the plate here. I very much hope they do.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    JM1 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1239980923099271169

    Pubs / restaurants allowed to make delivery servies.

    Oh - that's a very good idea!
    Excellent. And more work for gig workers too doing the deliveries.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited March 2020
    Maybe the government could provide the landlord with an interest free loan against non payment of rent. The loan gets rolled up into any mortgage the landlord holds for the property. Ultimately the landlord pays but as in most cases it will be in form of a slightly lower capital realisation when the property eventually gets sold, it won't be too painful.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    The support package is vast and I hope those opponents who keep attacking HMG finally accept that we must unify over this national crisis

    Tell your party leader to stop dangling no deal Brexit over the country's heads as a weapon and you might be heeded.
    I do not think Brexit is even in the mix at this time.

    We have left and an agreement with the EU may have to be delayed but we will not rejoin
    Only today the government reaffirmed that it is hellbent on ending the transition period on 31 December, with or without a deal. They're obsessed.
    I really don’t understand why. It’s astonishing. None of us leaver voters surely would care if it was delayed. This is the ultimate black swan.
    That's not true. There are shoals of maniacal Leavers who have spent half of this crisis finding new and innovative ways to criticise the EU for its handling of it or to fantasise about how the EU is going to fall as a result. This is all of a piece with their pathological hatred of it.
    On today of all days you continue your rant on brexit when no one is listening

    Far bigger things worry the country now
    And yet the government remains hell bent on its self-imposed deadline as of today, threatening the country with yet more disruption. Perhaps you could admit (through gritted teeth if you must) that the lunatics that you support have got wickedly wrong priorities just now.
    I will not bow to your obsession
    It's the government's obsession. Their deadline. Their threatened chaos. And you cheerlead for it.
    It's the reason Boris got a huge majority.

    And it's the law.
    The prime minister has never been terribly keen on the law.
    As Prime Minister? Citation required.....
    Well there was the business about suspending democracy...
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlanS said:

    AlanS said:

    (Long time lurker resurfacing)
    Re school closures, surely the approach is to make attendance optional. We kept our kid at home lately to help with social distancing. Not a big problem as wife and I can WFH, and we even have granny doing lessons over Skype. But I get that this is difficult for many people.

    So just say please keep children at home if you can, and we will provide homework packs. But send to school if you need to.

    My lad's school is telling me to send him in unless he shows any sign of illness.
    Yes, we got same message. But I think they’re trying to keep schools open as a favour to parents more than anything. And I think a lot of people now send kids in out of a sense of obligation, not because they need to. So let’s make it optional!
    In any case, all you have to do is say one person in the household has symptoms and they will order you not to come in for 7 days. Nobody is currently checking on the veracity of such statements.

    Of course, if you did get caught you might be in trouble because keeping up these home learning larks is causing a huge amount of extra work.
    Over a third of the kids on my wife's class are absent today...
    One junior class was completely empty today. Parents are voting with their feet, so the only way to continue education is going to be by online learning now. You can’t do it with half in and half out. Boarding students are frantically trying to get back to their countries too (where it’s safer), It’s just an absolute shambles; no leadership from government, isolated pretty much alone in Europe, scared staff, scared students.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    I’d expect the transition period to be extended, and for public support for that to be 60%+
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1239980923099271169

    Pubs / restaurants allowed to make delivery servies.

    Good, perhaps the only sensible economic policy to come out today!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    ukpaul said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlanS said:

    AlanS said:

    (Long time lurker resurfacing)
    Re school closures, surely the approach is to make attendance optional. We kept our kid at home lately to help with social distancing. Not a big problem as wife and I can WFH, and we even have granny doing lessons over Skype. But I get that this is difficult for many people.

    So just say please keep children at home if you can, and we will provide homework packs. But send to school if you need to.

    My lad's school is telling me to send him in unless he shows any sign of illness.
    Yes, we got same message. But I think they’re trying to keep schools open as a favour to parents more than anything. And I think a lot of people now send kids in out of a sense of obligation, not because they need to. So let’s make it optional!
    In any case, all you have to do is say one person in the household has symptoms and they will order you not to come in for 7 days. Nobody is currently checking on the veracity of such statements.

    Of course, if you did get caught you might be in trouble because keeping up these home learning larks is causing a huge amount of extra work.
    Over a third of the kids on my wife's class are absent today...
    One junior class was completely empty today. Parents are voting with their feet, so the only way to continue education is going to be by online learning now. You can’t do it with half in and half out. Boarding students are frantically trying to get back to their countries too (where it’s safer), It’s just an absolute shambles; no leadership from government, isolated pretty much alone in Europe, scared staff, scared students.


    At last the school ski trip that I reported on a couple of weeks ago has been cancelled.

    There was a stand-off between parents and school. The parents wouldn`t pull their children out of the trip as they would lose their money. The school wouldn`t cancel the trip because their insurer wouldn`t pay as travel was still allowed. It would have cost the school around £40k.

    In the end, after the developments of this week, the insurer is coughing up.

  • BalrogBalrog Posts: 207
    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    We need action for people who rent. Landlords are about to get mortgage relief and their tenants won't get anything.

    Yes. Relief for mortgages but not rent would be Class War.
    Relief for rent is slightly more awkward - a mortgage gets extended 3 months and most people wouldn't notice - 3 months of no rent is far harder to handle, especially as I don't see why landlords should be paid off..
    I agree, a loan to tenants is the only way as far as I can see.
    A loan won't work as a lot of tenants don't have space in their budgets to make repayments.
    In addition it would still be hugely divisive. Mortgage holder gets payment holiday and in return his mortgage goes up by 5£ a month or so when he starts paying again.....tenant has to repay 3000 worth of rent only way to equalise that repayment to 5£ a month is to spread it over 600 months cant see them allowing a 50 year repayment can you. And the renter probably struggles more with that extra 5£ than the homeowner
    +1 - the only solution I can see that works is for landlords to take it on the chin and for courts to deny evictions for none payment where it's proven to be related to coronavirus...

    Anything else really isn't going to play well (and I know the above won't be liked by landlords but all options are bad).
    I`d hate to be a landlord at the moment. Many will sell-up surely? I suppose they`d be stiffed on the sale price though?
    Well if they have a mortgage will that have a 3 month payment holiday as well. And if they dont then they can probably cope.
This discussion has been closed.