Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
Whilst I agree with this I do think that its unfortunate that Hunt's talents are not being used. Talent is not available in abundance. Hopefully he will be back in the reshuffle.
Hunt is now a Committee chair. Looks like he's abandoned hopes for office. Maybe Dom doesn't like/trust him
You're making a values judgement, which reeks of confirmation bias.
I'm actually rather surprised that you wouldn't agree with my modest and qualified assessment. If I were to blindly link the Remain value to "quality" of person - per say and primer facey - I'd be opining that almost all Remainers are better people than almost all Leavers. Which I'm absolutely not.
Okay, I'm going to wade into this. It's probably unwise, as given the backdrop of the last few years, it's probably impossible (in any community) to have a calm balanced discussion about the relative merits of the median Remainer and Leaver. No amount of caveats about the variation within each group being much greater than the difference in the median will prevent heckles from being raised.
I've little doubt that the median Remainer has more similar values to me than the median Leaver. In that sense, I would have a more favourable view of them. But "similar values" is a poor indicator of quality. So too is high achievement in a job etc.
Defining quality is really difficult, but a decent one might be "who would be more likely to help a stranger in need, at some cost to themselves?" I have no idea about the answer to that (and even if the stranger were an immigrant, I would still have no idea). If I tried, I could come up with criteria where I would guess the median Remainer would do better: "who would be more likely to stand up against bullying of a vulnerable person?" and ones where I would guess the median Leaver would do better: "who would be more likely to keep an eye out for their elderly next door neighbour?"
Overall, I wouldn't be confident either way, even if I could satisfy myself that I had a decent definition.
Short version: We're all just people.
Excellent post. All future posts here or elewhere about the characteristics of Remainers or Leavers ought to be implicitly preceded by this.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
Whilst I agree with this I do think that its unfortunate that Hunt's talents are not being used. Talent is not available in abundance. Hopefully he will be back in the reshuffle.
Agreed. From memory Hunt was offered Defence Secretary but turned it down. Sacking him then became the right thing to do. Turning down Defence was arrogant and not to be rewarded.
However I hope he's learnt his lesson now and accepts a role if offered.
It's rather a bold claim to equate high achievement with virtue. Certainly, most leading financiers are Remainers, but would you say they are virtuous?
Did not single out Finance. Most leading "insert occupation" were Remainers.
As to whether high achievers are on average "better" people than low achievers - mmm that does go into waters best left unpaddled.
For now anyway. It would make for an interesting topic at some point.
I would argue that in almost any referendum that high achievers in any field are moee likely to vote for the option which looks more like thr status quo, since they are more likely to view the status quo as working fir them. In general, of course.
I don`t think that you are a woolly-thinker either, Kinabula, but I must say that a left-winger claiming to possess a "cold clean streak of ruthless logic" stretches things far beyond breaking point.
"Kinabula" - oh yes. Such a robust "Chieftain" feel that has.
Logic? It's my thing! Live and breath it. That and Probability Theory and Social Justice.
You're making a values judgement, which reeks of confirmation bias.
I'm actually rather surprised that you wouldn't agree with my modest and qualified assessment. If I were to blindly link the Remain value to "quality" of person - per say and primer facey - I'd be opining that almost all Remainers are better people than almost all Leavers. Which I'm absolutely not.
Okay, I'm going to wade into this. It's probably unwise, as given the backdrop of the last few years, it's probably impossible (in any community) to have a calm balanced discussion about the relative merits of the median Remainer and Leaver. No amount of caveats about the variation within each group being much greater than the difference in the median will prevent heckles from being raised.
I've little doubt that the median Remainer has more similar values to me than the median Leaver. In that sense, I would have a more favourable view of them. But "similar values" is a poor indicator of quality. So too is high achievement in a job etc.
Defining quality is really difficult, but a decent one might be "who would be more likely to help a stranger in need, at some cost to themselves?" I have no idea about the answer to that (and even if the stranger were an immigrant, I would still have no idea). If I tried, I could come up with criteria where I would guess the median Remainer would do better: "who would be more likely to stand up against bullying of a vulnerable person?" and ones where I would guess the median Leaver would do better: "who would be more likely to keep an eye out for their elderly next door neighbour?"
Overall, I wouldn't be confident either way, even if I could satisfy myself that I had a decent definition.
Short version: We're all just people.
Excellent post. All future posts here or elewhere about the characteristics of Remainers or Leavers ought to be implicitly preceded by this.
Leaver / Remainer is not about inherent qualities imo. I'm a remainer, as are a narrow majority of my friends and family. But some of my best friends and dearest family are staunch leavers. I disagree with them but that doesn't mean they aren't fine people.
It's rather a bold claim to equate high achievement with virtue. Certainly, most leading financiers are Remainers, but would you say they are virtuous?
Did not single out Finance. Most leading "insert occupation" were Remainers.
As to whether high achievers are on average "better" people than low achievers - mmm that does go into waters best left unpaddled.
For now anyway. It would make for an interesting topic at some point.
I would argue that in almost any referendum that high achievers in any field are moee likely to vote for the option which looks more like thr status quo, since they are more likely to view the status quo as working fir them. In general, of course.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
Whilst I agree with this I do think that its unfortunate that Hunt's talents are not being used. Talent is not available in abundance. Hopefully he will be back in the reshuffle.
Hunt is now a Committee chair. Looks like he's abandoned hopes for office. Maybe Dom doesn't like/trust him
Hunt is focusing on chairing the Health committee where he has an interest.
Otherwise he is much like Mitt Romney, hoping the Trump/Boris project fails so he can be the establishment safe pair of hands to clear up the mess
It's rather a bold claim to equate high achievement with virtue. Certainly, most leading financiers are Remainers, but would you say they are virtuous?
Did not single out Finance. Most leading "insert occupation" were Remainers.
As to whether high achievers are on average "better" people than low achievers - mmm that does go into waters best left unpaddled.
For now anyway. It would make for an interesting topic at some point.
I would argue that in almost any referendum that high achievers in any field are moee likely to vote for the option which looks more like thr status quo, since they are more likely to view the status quo as working fir them. In general, of course.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
Whilst I agree with this I do think that its unfortunate that Hunt's talents are not being used. Talent is not available in abundance. Hopefully he will be back in the reshuffle.
Agreed. From memory Hunt was offered Defence Secretary but turned it down. Sacking him then became the right thing to do. Turning down Defence was arrogant and not to be rewarded.
However I hope he's learnt his lesson now and accepts a role if offered.
If he'd taken that he might well have got the Glasgow gig as well building on his time as FS.
Not necessarily, Trump won Iowa by 9% in 2016 over Hillary, Trump could lose and still win Iowa
Hah! Thanks for that @HYUFD - I missed the fact that the poll was Iowa state only and read it as a US poll. Since Trump's numbers have improved since the impeachment, I was was thinking the worst.
On the impeachment: I don't see how the Dems could have avoided going through with it but it's not such a bad thing for them that the Reps have stopped it quickly...
a) It will be largely forgotten by November. b) In the unlikely event that Trump was convicted, the Dems would be facing Mike Pence, who is if anything more dangerous than Trump. c) Maybe, just maybe, it would (as @rcs1000 has said) be better for a 2-term Trump to own the mess he is creating. In any event, creating a Trump impeachment martyrdom would not be in the best interests of progressive politics.
Indeed better to let the voters decide on Trump in November
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
Whilst I agree with this I do think that its unfortunate that Hunt's talents are not being used. Talent is not available in abundance. Hopefully he will be back in the reshuffle.
Hunt is now a Committee chair. Looks like he's abandoned hopes for office. Maybe Dom doesn't like/trust him
Health Committee chair. Suits him. He should stay there.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Its something a lot of people brushed over but, ironically, she epitomised the nasty party like few others. Presumably Cameron left her as HS to appease the right wing of the party (who were in fact even more obsessed with the EU than he realised). It was a mistake.
It's rather a bold claim to equate high achievement with virtue. Certainly, most leading financiers are Remainers, but would you say they are virtuous?
Did not single out Finance. Most leading "insert occupation" were Remainers.
As to whether high achievers are on average "better" people than low achievers - mmm that does go into waters best left unpaddled.
For now anyway. It would make for an interesting topic at some point.
I would argue that in almost any referendum that high achievers in any field are moee likely to vote for the option which looks more like thr status quo, since they are more likely to view the status quo as working fir them. In general, of course.
Yes most ABs voted Remain in 2016 and No to independence in Scotland in 2014.
Most C2s and DEs though voted Leave and Yes in Scotland
It's rather a bold claim to equate high achievement with virtue. Certainly, most leading financiers are Remainers, but would you say they are virtuous?
Did not single out Finance. Most leading "insert occupation" were Remainers.
As to whether high achievers are on average "better" people than low achievers - mmm that does go into waters best left unpaddled.
For now anyway. It would make for an interesting topic at some point.
I would argue that in almost any referendum that high achievers in any field are moee likely to vote for the option which looks more like thr status quo, since they are more likely to view the status quo as working fir them. In general, of course.
What about the AV referendum?
Huh. Fair point. I will change 'almost any referendum' to 'more often than not'. Probably.
Edit: though arguably voting for AV was voting to make change from the broadly centrist post-1997 consensus less likely - so perhaps voting for AV was the no-change option? (that sound you hear is the sound of straws being clutched at.)
I've always maintained that this site's posters are fairly representative of the national polls. I think that's still broadly true. But we're much more middle class than the nation as a whole, and we're particularly lacking in the broad WWC small town red wall demographic.
Certainly agree with the 2nd bit. And maybe whiter than the norm too. Not sure about that one. But no matter. It's all good. This is no echo chamber and that's the main thing.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Its something a lot of people brushed over but, ironically, she epitomised the nasty party like few others. Presumably Cameron left her as HS to appease the right wing of the party (who were in fact even more obsessed with the EU than he realised). It was a mistake.
Priti Patel is a far more right wing, tough on crime Home Secretary than May was
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Its something a lot of people brushed over but, ironically, she epitomised the nasty party like few others. Presumably Cameron left her as HS to appease the right wing of the party (who were in fact even more obsessed with the EU than he realised). It was a mistake.
Agreed 100%. She is also living embodiment that the nastiness was not on a Leave/Remain split.
The likes of Gove and Johnson are much nicer and closer to Cameron's style than the likes of May.
On topic, what we are seeing is a descent into tribalism. Standards of governance decline sharply when the tribe is seen as more important than the standard.
As others have said, Leavers have descended into such a tribe, ignoring Boris Johnson’s manifest unsuitability because they considered Brexit to be more important. One or two shed a few crocodile tears but if they actually cared about governance standards they wouldn’t have voted for him.
Interestingly, enough Remainers have not yet made that descent, refusing to give Jeremy Corbyn support to block Brexit. Those who submitted to the judgment of Solomon have found themselves ignored and derided since. Virtue has not been rewarded.
The lesson they will learn is that tribalism pays. The country will suffer more accordingly.
So Remainers just better people then? Yes, I see the light now. We Leavers all better just shut up, know our place, and defer to our betters. Would you like us to bow or is doffing our caps sufficient?
I think Mr Meeks is referring to Scotland - well I’m sure subliminally he is.
Fuck me. A 16 year old is being groomed and some how it's trans people's fault.
And the attempt to link being a predator with trans issues is disgusting.
Transphobes are utterly, utterly obsessed. There is no issue that cannot be fixed by discriminating against trans people in their mind. The only thing holding back a tidal wave of support for Independence is support for GRA reform.
Where do you think trans issues rank on the voters concerns in Scotland and factoring that in why do you think there is such appetite for radical new legislation in Scotland ?
The lobby is effective.
minimum amount of mouthy gobs who for some reason get too much house room, get on with their lives and give people peace.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Its something a lot of people brushed over but, ironically, she epitomised the nasty party like few others. Presumably Cameron left her as HS to appease the right wing of the party (who were in fact even more obsessed with the EU than he realised). It was a mistake.
Priti Patel is a far more right wing, tough on crime Home Secretary than May was
I don't think that she is a great choice either. But she seems less obsessed with immigration.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Its something a lot of people brushed over but, ironically, she epitomised the nasty party like few others. Presumably Cameron left her as HS to appease the right wing of the party (who were in fact even more obsessed with the EU than he realised). It was a mistake.
Priti Patel is a far more right wing, tough on crime Home Secretary than May was
I don't think that she is a great choice either. But she seems less obsessed with immigration.
The only real difference is the May Government wanted a visa system and the Boris Government is pursuing a points system
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Its something a lot of people brushed over but, ironically, she epitomised the nasty party like few others. Presumably Cameron left her as HS to appease the right wing of the party (who were in fact even more obsessed with the EU than he realised). It was a mistake.
Agreed 100%. She is also living embodiment that the nastiness was not on a Leave/Remain split.
The likes of Gove and Johnson are much nicer and closer to Cameron's style than the likes of May.
Interesting reading this discussion as an outsider. I've often wondered whether May is, in fact "nastier" (in the Nasty Party sense) than Johnson. I've tended to give her the benefit of the doubt that her anti-immigrant policies were pragmatic rather than ideological, but hearing Tories say otherwise makes me think I was being too generous.
But reading that Gove is nicer than May? That's hard to believe. At the very least, he has a thing about Muslims.
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
Publicity seeking halfwit PS Schofield , not you David
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
Publicity seeking halfwit PS Schofield , not you David
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
I doubt there will ever be such a day. There may no linger be disaproval of homosexuality but humans are terribly interested in other humans' sexual preferences.
Apparently Layla Moran is to say the LDs failed to properly explain their Brexit policy at the GE, which seems very odd to me. Surely the positive thing about their policy is how easy it was to understand?
"It made us look arrogant, and it made us look stupid," she says. Quite.
But I dont see how she thinks it would look less arrogant or stupid if it were 'properly explained'. Isnt that just saying it only looked stupid and arrogant because the public didnt understand? So she thinks the policy itself was just fine.
I'll be in interested to hear how much more simply she thinks the policy could have been explained.
It could have been explained thus:
Our policy is a second referendum on Johnson's deal versus Remain. In the unlikely and magical event of an overall LibDem majority we would take that as clear evidence of a massive switch to Remain among voters and revoke without the delay and expense of a referendum.
C.f., Get Brexit Done.
3 words versus 45.
If you want my opinion, the LibDems were misled after the 2019 Euros & devised a mistaken policy in its heady aftermath.
As you suggest, enough of a tired electorate said 'sod it, just do it"
Didn't the polls point to 'anti-Corbyn' being more persuasive than 'pro-Brexit'?
"“Trump calls Bloomberg ‘Little Mike,’” said Warren Curtin of Litchfield. “Wouldn’t you like to see Bloomberg go up against him on a stage? Trump would call him that and Bloomberg would answer back, ‘Well, I’ve made 60 billion more than you and I didn’t inherit any. Who is the little man?!'”
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
I doubt there will ever be such a day. There may no linger be disaproval of homosexuality but humans are terribly interested in other humans' sexual preferences.
My daughter watches Love Island. You are clearly correct. Absolutely weird program.
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
I doubt there will ever be such a day. There may no linger be disaproval of homosexuality but humans are terribly interested in other humans' sexual preferences.
My daughter watches Love Island. You are clearly correct. Absolutely weird program.
Emily Thornberry has picked up 3 nominations so far today to take her total to 18 - with her own CLP yet to nominate. Maybe she still has a shot at getting to the Ballot!
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
I doubt there will ever be such a day. There may no linger be disaproval of homosexuality but humans are terribly interested in other humans' sexual preferences.
My daughter watches Love Island. You are clearly correct. Absolutely weird program.
I watch Love Island. It’s immense.
You should be banished to the Canary for such behaviour....we have standards on this site don't you know!
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I did half think that yesterday, maybe one of the Sundays had caught him out and he was getting his defence in first. But I hadn't realised he'd been married for nearly three decades.
I actually feel quite sorry for people like this who have personal stories in the press. He's a light entertainer not a politician, doesn't take public money and doesn't market himself as a role model to others. His sex life falls under things the public might find interesting, as opposed to things that are in the public interest.
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday.
10 years ago, it would have been all of those things. It still would be if he were a footballer, for example. Even for someone in the media, it's still worth a quick "good for him" and move on. But most of the fuss is people wanting to feel good about the fact that they are enlightened on an issue on which it's very easy to be enlightened. It's uncontroversial, low hanging fruit.
It would be much more noteworthy if a celebrity came out as being the victim of domestic abuse by his wife, or of childhood bullying that has affected his mental health throughout his life. These are things about which taboos are rarely broken, would get a more mixed response, and therefore really would be brave to speak about.
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Its something a lot of people brushed over but, ironically, she epitomised the nasty party like few others. Presumably Cameron left her as HS to appease the right wing of the party (who were in fact even more obsessed with the EU than he realised). It was a mistake.
Agreed 100%. She is also living embodiment that the nastiness was not on a Leave/Remain split.
The likes of Gove and Johnson are much nicer and closer to Cameron's style than the likes of May.
Interesting reading this discussion as an outsider. I've often wondered whether May is, in fact "nastier" (in the Nasty Party sense) than Johnson. I've tended to give her the benefit of the doubt that her anti-immigrant policies were pragmatic rather than ideological, but hearing Tories say otherwise makes me think I was being too generous.
But reading that Gove is nicer than May? That's hard to believe. At the very least, he has a thing about Muslims.
Johnson is amoral. He has no morals or principles, but he does have a superficial optimism that helps him sell the snake oil.
May deserves to have Windrush graved on her heart. I think she does have principles but she compromised them badly.
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
Me too. What was the need to tell all about a family matter? Especially as he says he wanted to keep his wife and kids out of the spotlight
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween. Hunt never would have. I didn't have a vote in the leadership election having torn up my membership when May became leader but if I had a vote it would have beenfor Johnson, who has succeeded where May failed and where Hunt would have failed.
You tore up your membership when May became leader?
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
She is a nasty authoritarian xenophobe. I went to the Tory Party Conference in 2015 which was overall a very jubilant and liberal affair, a lot of celebrations for having won the unexpected majority that year and a lot of good speeches with a liberal Conservative agenda. Except Mays. It was vicious, nasty, xenophobic and vile. I felt deeply uncomfortable sitting through that and so did many others I spoke to. I already disliked her but that was a deal breaker for me after that.
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
Fair enough - good answer, can't and won't argue with that.
Apparently Layla Moran is to say the LDs failed to properly explain their Brexit policy at the GE, which seems very odd to me. Surely the positive thing about their policy is how easy it was to understand?
"It made us look arrogant, and it made us look stupid," she says. Quite.
But I dont see how she thinks it would look less arrogant or stupid if it were 'properly explained'. Isnt that just saying it only looked stupid and arrogant because the public didnt understand? So she thinks the policy itself was just fine.
I'll be in interested to hear how much more simply she thinks the policy could have been explained.
It could have been explained thus:
Our policy is a second referendum on Johnson's deal versus Remain. In the unlikely and magical event of an overall LibDem majority we would take that as clear evidence of a massive switch to Remain among voters and revoke without the delay and expense of a referendum.
C.f., Get Brexit Done.
3 words versus 45.
If you want my opinion, the LibDems were misled after the 2019 Euros & devised a mistaken policy in its heady aftermath.
As you suggest, enough of a tired electorate said 'sod it, just do it"
Didn't the polls point to 'anti-Corbyn' being more persuasive than 'pro-Brexit'?
Corbyn's reverse since 2017 may be key. One imagines it is due in part to under-the-radar social media attacks but of course we do not know what was said, only that the Conservatives were saying it.
I don`t think that you are a woolly-thinker either, Kinabula, but I must say that a left-winger claiming to possess a "cold clean streak of ruthless logic" stretches things far beyond breaking point.
"Kinabula" - oh yes. Such a robust "Chieftain" feel that has.
Logic? It's my thing! Live and breath it. That and Probability Theory and Social Justice.
Not necessarily, Trump won Iowa by 9% in 2016 over Hillary, Trump could lose and still win Iowa
Hah! Thanks for that @HYUFD - I missed the fact that the poll was Iowa state only and read it as a US poll. Since Trump's numbers have improved since the impeachment, I was was thinking the worst.
On the impeachment: I don't see how the Dems could have avoided going through with it but it's not such a bad thing for them that the Reps have stopped it quickly...
a) It will be largely forgotten by November. b) In the unlikely event that Trump was convicted, the Dems would be facing Mike Pence, who is if anything more dangerous than Trump. c) Maybe, just maybe, it would (as @rcs1000 has said) be better for a 2-term Trump to own the mess he is creating. In any event, creating a Trump impeachment martyrdom would not be in the best interests of progressive politics.
Indeed better to let the voters decide on Trump in November
Well yes - albeit a majority might well vote against him and he could still win (again).
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
Me too. What was the need to tell all about a family matter? Especially as he says he wanted to keep his wife and kids out of the spotlight
Hopefully, at some point in the future, it won't be a news story when someone mentions their sexual orientation on TV. Until that day comes then it will be brave for someone to talk about it. The idea that you should keep quiet about those sorts of things belongs to a time when it was thought to be shameful.
I think we're getting close to it not being news. There have been some recent shows on Netflix with "characters who happen to be gay" rather than "gay characters" that I see as a good sign.
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
Agree 100%. I think it tells us there is still an issue out there if people do care. It should be that if anyone made such a statement the reaction would be 'why on earth are you telling us that?' and that would be the reaction if someone came out as straight. I mean that would be really weird wouldn't it?
The world will be a much better place when we don't give two hoots whether someone is straight/gay, man/woman, black/white, etc.
I have been bemused by the whole episode. I just don't care.
I really don't think I see that unless you equiperate leave with right. Which would be wrong and a mistake that cost Labour dear.
But there IS a very strong correlation here between Leave and Right (of centre). Of the many Leavers we have I can only right now think of @SandyRentool and @bigjohnowls and @Wulfrun_Phil who identify as dressing Left. Might be a couple I'm omitting but still.
And on top of that several Leftish constructs (who were anyway a minority) have stopped posting regularly. @Noo@Recidivist@Stereotomy@TheJezziah ...
But it's fine. I'm not complaining about it. I've only been on here a year or so myself and for all I know these are normal fluctuations.
Old Labour and The Valiant as well.
I think Justin and Rochdale might also have supported Leave.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
I really don't think I see that unless you equiperate leave with right. Which would be wrong and a mistake that cost Labour dear.
But there IS a very strong correlation here between Leave and Right (of centre). Of the many Leavers we have I can only right now think of @SandyRentool and @bigjohnowls and @Wulfrun_Phil who identify as dressing Left. Might be a couple I'm omitting but still.
And on top of that several Leftish constructs (who were anyway a minority) have stopped posting regularly. @Noo@Recidivist@Stereotomy@TheJezziah ...
But it's fine. I'm not complaining about it. I've only been on here a year or so myself and for all I know these are normal fluctuations.
Old Labour and The Valiant as well.
I think Justin and Rochdale might also have supported Leave.
I did indeed - though have never held strong views on the EU issue. My vote was not cast on the substantive issue - but simply in the hope of removing Cameron and Osborne. I have no regrets - and believe that most people will see little effect on their lives.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
Some, perhaps, but I don't think that many. The opponents could not have made it any clearer that there would be plenty to do post 31st January, and even if people ignored that the annoyance that the battle is ongoing in some regards would I think be eclipsed by the continuation of the us vs them narrative of the discussions. Additionally, there is plenty to do, the very fervour by which remainers sought to prevent leaving - or rather entering any transition stage, no matter when it was supposed to begin or end - will help Boris portray even very important matters as tying up the loose ends, while the 'Brexit' itself is done.
George Osborne’s future at the Evening Standard is believed to be in doubt, with sources at the newspaper expecting the former chancellor to leave the publication.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween.
Only by breaking his red line.
Everyone knew he could get the EU's preferred deal that he himself had rejected when he wasn't PM.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
Some, perhaps, but I don't think that many. The opponents could not have made it any clearer that there would be plenty to do post 31st January, and even if people ignored that the annoyance that the battle is ongoing in some regards would I think be eclipsed by the continuation of the us vs them narrative of the discussions. Additionally, there is plenty to do, the very fervour by which remainers sought to prevent leaving - or rather entering any transition stage, no matter when it was supposed to begin or end - will help Boris portray even very important matters as tying up the loose ends, while the 'Brexit' itself is done.
I am not so sure that six months hence that people will feel that Johnson has really got 'Brexit done'.
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
I presume that since he is a somewhat prominent TV figure it would have been news once it was known, therefore it might as well have been done in the way it was since it was going to prompt discussion. I think we may not be that far off no one really caring, but we are not there yet.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
Some, perhaps, but I don't think that many. The opponents could not have made it any clearer that there would be plenty to do post 31st January, and even if people ignored that the annoyance that the battle is ongoing in some regards would I think be eclipsed by the continuation of the us vs them narrative of the discussions. Additionally, there is plenty to do, the very fervour by which remainers sought to prevent leaving - or rather entering any transition stage, no matter when it was supposed to begin or end - will help Boris portray even very important matters as tying up the loose ends, while the 'Brexit' itself is done.
I am not so sure that six months hence that people will feel that Johnson has really got 'Brexit done'.
Which people? I don't disagree some will feel it is not done. But will it be a lot of people, and will the fact the Remain side fought so hard and so long to not be in this transition period salve the blow for the majority that there are still complexities to resolve? I think yes.
I reckon the press will have a story about a Schofield affair soon. Rumours flying about that I wont repeat on here
I genuinely found it weird that anyone thought it was "brave" or "good" or frankly even "interesting" that he thought it worthwhile to express his sex preferences on live TV yesterday. Clearly I am well out of touch with the zeitgeist on this but I do look forward to the day no one actually cares.
I presume that since he is a somewhat prominent TV figure it would have been news once it was known, therefore it might as well have been done in the way it was since it was going to prompt discussion. I think we may not be that far off no one really caring, but we are not there yet.
For what its worth, there are reports in the papers today which state that he hired a very well known PR firm in the summer of last year and they have been advising him on how to manage this. Apparently there is also a big personal interview in one of the Sundays tomorrow.
Alastair is wrong to castigate voters for preferring Boris to Corbyn. That is an entirely reasonable and honourable decision to make,. The unreasonable and dishonourable decision was the Conservative Party choosing Boris over Hunt or one of the other contenders.
You're so far in denial you should be Egyptian.
Johnson got what Hunts supporters claimed was impossible, a revised deal before Halloween.
Only by breaking his red line.
Everyone knew he could get the EU's preferred deal that he himself had rejected when he wasn't PM.
Very few qualified their statements to that effect - I did not - and that has played wonderfully into Boris's hands. His opponents seem to have bought into the idea he really was after no deal at all in September, and never really adjusted once they were proven wrong, even if he had to toss the DUP and his own promises under a bus to do it. Now some are reframing no deal as the matter at the end of the transition, which is definitely a huge issue to worry about, but being wrong about getting a transition deal undermines efforts to convince people to worry more about his endstate negotiations.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
Some, perhaps, but I don't think that many. The opponents could not have made it any clearer that there would be plenty to do post 31st January, and even if people ignored that the annoyance that the battle is ongoing in some regards would I think be eclipsed by the continuation of the us vs them narrative of the discussions. Additionally, there is plenty to do, the very fervour by which remainers sought to prevent leaving - or rather entering any transition stage, no matter when it was supposed to begin or end - will help Boris portray even very important matters as tying up the loose ends, while the 'Brexit' itself is done.
I am not so sure that six months hence that people will feel that Johnson has really got 'Brexit done'.
How Brexit will be seen six months to a year down the line is the critical question in British politics.
The random factor is that this depends heavily upon prospects for the world economy that are largely independent of the UK”s *bold* decision.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
Some, perhaps, but I don't think that many. The opponents could not have made it any clearer that there would be plenty to do post 31st January, and even if people ignored that the annoyance that the battle is ongoing in some regards would I think be eclipsed by the continuation of the us vs them narrative of the discussions. Additionally, there is plenty to do, the very fervour by which remainers sought to prevent leaving - or rather entering any transition stage, no matter when it was supposed to begin or end - will help Boris portray even very important matters as tying up the loose ends, while the 'Brexit' itself is done.
I am not so sure that six months hence that people will feel that Johnson has really got 'Brexit done'.
Which people? I don't disagree some will feel it is not done. But will it be a lot of people, and will the fact the Remain side fought so hard and so long to not be in this transition period salve the blow for the majority that there are still complexities to resolve? I think yes.
We - as political anoraks - are well informed and follow these matters closely. Typical voters barely tune in to the details - and were clearly heartily sick to death of the never ending arguments from both camps. They will - naively - have thought that giving Johnson a clear majority would resolve the issue and will not be best pleased when it fails to disappear. I do expect some backlash from that.
You're making a values judgement, which reeks of confirmation bias.
I'm actually rather surprised that you wouldn't agree with my modest and qualified assessment. If I were to blindly link the Remain value to "quality" of person - per say and primer facey - I'd be opining that almost all Remainers are better people than almost all Leavers. Which I'm absolutely not.
I think your post was partially fair.
But, I don't think you can say that Remainers are on average better than Leavers.
There are bigots on both sides.
Loathsome pronouncements about the 'quality' of people aside, social class is undoubtedly correlated with views on Brexit, with more middle class people on the remain side, and more working class people on the leave side. However, it has nothing to do with the former having greater powers of reasoning and therefore 'understanding' the benefits of the EU in a way that leavers are intellectually incapable of. That's a grotesquely stupid (and sadly typical) logical leap.
As with most peoples' views on most things, what we're actually acting on is a set of handed down assumptions popularised by fashionable thought leaders and shared by our peers. Atheism is another one, and there will also be a strong correlation with remainerism. Instinctive approval of anything 'green' is another. None are based on reasoned assessment, just a comfortable assumption confirmed by everyone else in the that peer group. It is assumed that the EU is good - liking it is a badge of not being a 'Sun reader' or a 'Daily Mail reader'. I would imagine less than one percent of these EU fans have a clue about what it is or how it works. Ask the average loudmouth remainer in your office a question about the EU and watch them flounder.
That is not to say working class leavers have studied the issues - they are equally acting on a bunch of (often inaccurate) assumptions. But in fairness these assumptions are regularly lampooned in the media, unlike those of the former group.
In short, remainerism is a social consequence of being middle class, not an intellectual consequence of being clever.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
Some, perhaps, but I don't think that many. The opponents could not have made it any clearer that there would be plenty to do post 31st January, and even if people ignored that the annoyance that the battle is ongoing in some regards would I think be eclipsed by the continuation of the us vs them narrative of the discussions. Additionally, there is plenty to do, the very fervour by which remainers sought to prevent leaving - or rather entering any transition stage, no matter when it was supposed to begin or end - will help Boris portray even very important matters as tying up the loose ends, while the 'Brexit' itself is done.
I am not so sure that six months hence that people will feel that Johnson has really got 'Brexit done'.
Which people? I don't disagree some will feel it is not done. But will it be a lot of people, and will the fact the Remain side fought so hard and so long to not be in this transition period salve the blow for the majority that there are still complexities to resolve? I think yes.
We - as political anoraks - are well informed and follow these matters closely. Typical voters barely tune in to the details - and were clearly heartily sick to death of the never ending arguments from both camps. They will - naively - have thought that giving Johnson a clear majority would resolve the issue and will not be best pleased when it fails to disappear. I do expect some backlash from that.
We seem to be talking at cross purposes, since I also expect some backlash. It's the extent of the backlash that's in question, as Boris will have options on how to distract people or defer anger at him in these matters.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
Some, perhaps, but I don't think that many. The opponents could not have made it any clearer that there would be plenty to do post 31st January, and even if people ignored that the annoyance that the battle is ongoing in some regards would I think be eclipsed by the continuation of the us vs them narrative of the discussions. Additionally, there is plenty to do, the very fervour by which remainers sought to prevent leaving - or rather entering any transition stage, no matter when it was supposed to begin or end - will help Boris portray even very important matters as tying up the loose ends, while the 'Brexit' itself is done.
I am not so sure that six months hence that people will feel that Johnson has really got 'Brexit done'.
Which people? I don't disagree some will feel it is not done. But will it be a lot of people, and will the fact the Remain side fought so hard and so long to not be in this transition period salve the blow for the majority that there are still complexities to resolve? I think yes.
We - as political anoraks - are well informed and follow these matters closely. Typical voters barely tune in to the details - and were clearly heartily sick to death of the never ending arguments from both camps. They will - naively - have thought that giving Johnson a clear majority would resolve the issue and will not be best pleased when it fails to disappear. I do expect some backlash from that.
We seem to be talking at cross purposes, since I also expect some backlash. It's the extent of the backlash that's in question, as Boris will have options on how to distract people or defer anger at him in these matters.
I suspect his response will fall on much stonier ground next time. Many will feel that he has not fulfilled the expectations raised during the election campaign.We are now at 'peak Johnson' - but probably not for much longer.
Am I missing something here - who needs to read the labels when in the shower?
I hate to say this, but finally something I agree with Katie Hopkins on. When using a hotel shower or a friends shower I often haven't the foggiest from the array of bottles on offer which is the shampoo. I wouldn't even know what to do with conditioner but it is usually sitting there in an identical bottle with the words in 6 point font on it!
Drives me potty!
I should point out that having had perfect eyesight the moving on to reading glasses was and is not fun. I own and have lost dozens of the damn things.
'Getting Brexit Done' was a great slogan for the Tories at the 2019 election. However, I do wonder whether it might backfire on them in coming months with the intense media focus on a Trade Deal. By and large non-political anoraks are likely to have assumed that 'Leaving on 31st January' was the end of the matter , and will not be impressed by the continuing debate. Many are likely to resent this and feel conned by Johnson.
Some, perhaps, but I don't think that many. The opponents could not have made it any clearer that there would be plenty to do post 31st January, and even if people ignored that the annoyance that the battle is ongoing in some regards would I think be eclipsed by the continuation of the us vs them narrative of the discussions. Additionally, there is plenty to do, the very fervour by which remainers sought to prevent leaving - or rather entering any transition stage, no matter when it was supposed to begin or end - will help Boris portray even very important matters as tying up the loose ends, while the 'Brexit' itself is done.
I am not so sure that six months hence that people will feel that Johnson has really got 'Brexit done'.
Six months; possibly. Eleven months a great deal more doubtful!
George Osborne’s future at the Evening Standard is believed to be in doubt, with sources at the newspaper expecting the former chancellor to leave the publication.
George Osborne’s future at the Evening Standard is believed to be in doubt, with sources at the newspaper expecting the former chancellor to leave the publication.
"“Trump calls Bloomberg ‘Little Mike,’” said Warren Curtin of Litchfield. “Wouldn’t you like to see Bloomberg go up against him on a stage? Trump would call him that and Bloomberg would answer back, ‘Well, I’ve made 60 billion more than you and I didn’t inherit any. Who is the little man?!'”
"“Trump calls Bloomberg ‘Little Mike,’” said Warren Curtin of Litchfield. “Wouldn’t you like to see Bloomberg go up against him on a stage? Trump would call him that and Bloomberg would answer back, ‘Well, I’ve made 60 billion more than you and I didn’t inherit any. Who is the little man?!'”
George Osborne’s future at the Evening Standard is believed to be in doubt, with sources at the newspaper expecting the former chancellor to leave the publication.
Buttigieg and Biden look the Democrats best bet to beat Trump then
I think the Biden campaign will end after South Carolina.
If he loses yes, if Biden wins South Carolina he will press on
I think he will lose. Iowa was a disaster for him and NH doesn't look much better. Polling when he had a big name advantage is meaningless. His campaign is going nowhere.
Not sure about that, Biden leads in the latest South Carolina polling
New members can't vote in CLP nominations meeting. Freezing date to vote in nomination meetings is continuous membership in the 8 weeks before the date of the meeting. So those who joined after the GE aren't eligible. They will be eligible for the final vote though
OMG. Is sense actually breaking out in the Labour party at last, or is this a reflection of new members?
Almost entirely the former.
New members must have joined 8 weeks before nominating meetings in order to take part. So , a member could have joined after the general election on Saturday 14th December and take part in a nomination meeting today. Most new members won't have joined that quickly though.
A higher proportion of new members will be eligible to vote at meetings later next week. As a new member I'll be eligible to vote at my own CLP meeting on Thursday 13th.
Comments
Excellent post. All future posts here or elewhere about the characteristics of Remainers or Leavers ought to be implicitly preceded by this.
I mean, May turned out to be truly awful, of course, but at the time she became leader very Tories few saw that coming. She was, if I recall, overwhelmingly popular. What made her unacceptable to you at that time?
However I hope he's learnt his lesson now and accepts a role if offered.
Logic? It's my thing! Live and breath it. That and Probability Theory and Social Justice.
Otherwise he is much like Mitt Romney, hoping the Trump/Boris project fails so he can be the establishment safe pair of hands to clear up the mess
I lost all respect for May that day in 2015 and never seen anything since to change my mind.
In leadership race Thornberry is currently at 16
Most C2s and DEs though voted Leave and Yes in Scotland
I will change 'almost any referendum' to 'more often than not'.
Probably.
Edit: though arguably voting for AV was voting to make change from the broadly centrist post-1997 consensus less likely - so perhaps voting for AV was the no-change option? (that sound you hear is the sound of straws being clutched at.)
The likes of Gove and Johnson are much nicer and closer to Cameron's style than the likes of May.
Although it doesn't exclude it, which is why it was so successful.
But reading that Gove is nicer than May? That's hard to believe. At the very least, he has a thing about Muslims.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7980883/Video-shows-officials-protective-suits-dragging-suspected-coronavirus-carriers-homes.html
PS Schofield , not you David
"“Trump calls Bloomberg ‘Little Mike,’” said Warren Curtin of Litchfield. “Wouldn’t you like to see Bloomberg go up against him on a stage? Trump would call him that and Bloomberg would answer back, ‘Well, I’ve made 60 billion more than you and I didn’t inherit any. Who is the little man?!'”
https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1226056072638713856
I actually feel quite sorry for people like this who have personal stories in the press. He's a light entertainer not a politician, doesn't take public money and doesn't market himself as a role model to others. His sex life falls under things the public might find interesting, as opposed to things that are in the public interest.
It would be much more noteworthy if a celebrity came out as being the victim of domestic abuse by his wife, or of childhood bullying that has affected his mental health throughout his life. These are things about which taboos are rarely broken, would get a more mixed response, and therefore really would be brave to speak about.
May deserves to have Windrush graved on her heart. I think she does have principles but she compromised them badly.
Well yes - albeit a majority might well vote against him and he could still win (again).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51427301
I think we're getting close to it not being news. There have been some recent shows on Netflix with "characters who happen to be gay" rather than "gay characters" that I see as a good sign.
The world will be a much better place when we don't give two hoots whether someone is straight/gay, man/woman, black/white, etc.
I have been bemused by the whole episode. I just don't care.
I think Justin and Rochdale might also have supported Leave.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/07/george-osborne-evening-standard-editor-talks
How will he cope when he is down to only 27 jobs?
Everyone knew he could get the EU's preferred deal that he himself had rejected when he wasn't PM.
https://twitter.com/clpnominations/status/1226139468073185280?s=21
The random factor is that this depends heavily upon prospects for the world economy that are largely independent of the UK”s *bold* decision.
As with most peoples' views on most things, what we're actually acting on is a set of handed down assumptions popularised by fashionable thought leaders and shared by our peers. Atheism is another one, and there will also be a strong correlation with remainerism. Instinctive approval of anything 'green' is another. None are based on reasoned assessment, just a comfortable assumption confirmed by everyone else in the that peer group. It is assumed that the EU is good - liking it is a badge of not being a 'Sun reader' or a 'Daily Mail reader'. I would imagine less than one percent of these EU fans have a clue about what it is or how it works. Ask the average loudmouth remainer in your office a question about the EU and watch them flounder.
That is not to say working class leavers have studied the issues - they are equally acting on a bunch of (often inaccurate) assumptions. But in fairness these assumptions are regularly lampooned in the media, unlike those of the former group.
In short, remainerism is a social consequence of being middle class, not an intellectual consequence of being clever.
Drives me potty!
I should point out that having had perfect eyesight the moving on to reading glasses was and is not fun. I own and have lost dozens of the damn things.
Trump has a BMI of over 30.
https://youtu.be/eRIdtMlqwNA
137 for Rayner to 115 for Burgon
They will be eligible for the final vote though
New members must have joined 8 weeks before nominating meetings in order to take part. So , a member could have joined after the general election on Saturday 14th December and take part in a nomination meeting today. Most new members won't have joined that quickly though.
A higher proportion of new members will be eligible to vote at meetings later next week. As a new member I'll be eligible to vote at my own CLP meeting on Thursday 13th.