My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
There was real verve and passion. A couple of thugs got arrested. Some mildly nasty chanting. But this was maybe 39 people out of 30,000
It was a very British but very determined revolution.
Three things I noticed:
The crowd was much younger, taller, richer, better looking than the caricatures of Leavers. A lot of posh people there, waving Union Jacks. Obviously this is a London bias, but it was interesting nonetheless
It was Farage's show on the night. He conducted the final songs etc. He was largely cheered, in a rather vaudeville way. A popular pantomime figure
But: they REALLY love Boris. He is the total hero of all Brexiteers. Universally liked. He has a lot of support he can lose, but he has a potentially formidable core of disciples, if he gets it right
Welcome to Farages Britain, we are his children now.
No, I think we are Boris Johnson's Bastards. He has quiet a few, after all.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
I have no such option. And if I did I would be offended that I even had one.
Try getting that into your thick head.
Being able to live and work freely in other countries offends you?
This is a ‘right’ that everyone talks about in theory but never exercises in practice.
I’ve been on this planet nearly 40 years and have never had cause to use it.
You don’t need it for holidays nor for short business trips, so the anger over ‘losing’ it is entirely synthetic.
There are 1.3 million or so UK citizens that have exercised their FoM and many more who might have considered doing so, but that appears to be closing off.
It is of course possible that FoM will be part of the final deal, if not in 2021, then in the future. I note that Starmer supports it as part of our relationship with the EU, presumably as part of an EEA/EFTA arrangement.
What’s your source for that claim?
Even if true, 1.3 million is an astonishingly low percentage of the UK population.
For the vast majority, they simply aren’t that bothered and even if they were using it some restrictions still applied, and other mechanisms will continue to be available to allow UK citizens to work and live in the EU, just as in Canada, Australia, the US etc, subject to revised restrictions.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I
Indeed,
S
I
Funnily enough, this argument doesn’t seem to apply to other nations.
It is a ridiculously weak, and transparently blinkered stance. But ifbothered about.
People can do what they like, but let’s not pretend it’s some patriotic act.
You called it treasonous!
Yes, because he was listening to and celebrating the EU national anthem as the UK broke away.
That is treasonous.
No, it’s not. The EU is not our enemy. It never oppressed us. Things just didn’t work out. Being sad about that, regretting it and consoling yourself with a bit of Beethoven is not the act of a traitor.
I disagree, and on that point hinges Brexit.
If that is truly the case this country is in a whole heap of trouble. Thankfully, though, I think you’re in a small minority. And maybe you won’t be in it tomorrow!
1230 BBC4 An hour long show about the song ‘Common People’ - as good an explanation of why Brexit happened as any despite, I would guess, it’s writers political views
In 2002, I was in a pub in shoreditch watching England vs Argentina. On his own, with a pint of beer, was Jarvis Cocker. I meant to say hello, but didn't summon the courage.
I have no such option. And if I did I would be offended that I even had one.
Try getting that into your thick head.
Being able to live and work freely in other countries offends you?
This is a ‘right’ that everyone talks about in theory but never exercises in practice.
I’ve been on this planet nearly 40 years and have never had cause to use it.
You don’t need it for holidays nor for short business trips, so the anger over ‘losing’ it is entirely synthetic.
There are 1.3 million or so UK citizens that have exercised their FoM and many more who might have considered doing so, but that appears to be closing off.
It is of course possible that FoM will be part of the final deal, if not in 2021, then in the future. I note that Starmer supports it as part of our relationship with the EU, presumably as part of an EEA/EFTA arrangement.
What’s your source for that claim?
Even if true, 1.3 million is an astonishingly low percentage of the UK population.
For the vast majority, they simply aren’t that bothered and even if they were using it some restrictions still applied, and other mechanisms will continue to be available to allow UK citizens to work and live in the EU, just as in Canada, Australia, the US etc, subject to revised restrictions.
I can’t get excited about it.
That must be 1.3 million over the entire duration of EU membership, surely?
The EU flag is just as much mine as the Union Jack. The fact this annoys people is quite entertaining.
Unless you hold dual nationality that statement is now factually incorrect.
Though it doesn't annoy me at all.
Clearly it does.
No honestly it doesn't. My mood is very good tonight and I was making a merely semantic comment.
As I said earlier I will enjoy all manner of fine European produce over the next few days and, unless there is some sort of desperate trade war going on that I have not heard of, I see nothing treasonous in those of a Remainer bent commiserating with European goodies. And Beethoven is the finest composer in the history of music. I would never criticise anyone for listening to him under any circumstances.
I agree with CR on many things but not on this. It is petty.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
There isn't a common European culture and demos.
There isn’t a common British culture and demos.
Who was claiming there was?
I thought we were just making outlandish statements.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
There isn't a common European culture and demos.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
I have no such option. And if I did I would be offended that I even had one.
Try getting that into your thick head.
Being able to live and work freely in other countries offends you?
This is a ‘right’ that everyone talks about in theory but never exercises in practice.
I’ve been on this planet nearly 40 years and have never had cause to use it.
You don’t need it for holidays nor for short business trips, so the anger over ‘losing’ it is entirely synthetic.
There are 1.3 million or so UK citizens that have exercised their FoM and many more who might have considered doing so, but that appears to be closing off.
It is of course possible that FoM will be part of the final deal, if not in 2021, then in the future. I note that Starmer supports it as part of our relationship with the EU, presumably as part of an EEA/EFTA arrangement.
Many more than 1.3 million when you throw in those who switch between the UK and the EU27 for a few months at a time without giving it a second thought. It will also have a major impact on quite a few types of business trip if, as looks very likely, services are not part of the FTA that ends up being done. FoM will be a slow burner, but it will come to matter a fair bit.
I think this is a nonsense. You’ll pay £6 for a five year ETIAS and queue to go through passport control as you do today, as we’re outside Schengen.
As long as the trip doesn’t exceed 90-180 days. No change.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
I'm drinking Old Pultney whiskey and eating Lancaster Bomber cheese. Not because they're British but because I like them and they're in the house. I voted Leave because on balance, and in the long run, I thought the potential for things turning out better - for a given value of better, whuch included overall wealth, how that wealth was shared, democratic accountability, national security, and sundry others - was greater than the potential for things to turn out better inside the EU, acknowledging that there were risks involved in both remaining and leaving, and that the clock couldn't be stayed, orturned back to 2.14 or 2007 or 1992 or 1974 or 1959. This was the unfashionable view, but after a bit of soul-searching I came to the conclusion that I'm reasonably well-informed in politics and exonomics, having a sodding degree in tbe subject and all, and stuck with it. That is, of course, not say the views of certain remain voters are uninformed, just that I had checked that my view was not uninformed. The last three and a half years haven't, on balance, made me believe that this view was a mistake. But it's still an 'on balance'. And the future is unknown. It would havebeen unknown had we remained, of course, but the potential to regret the do-something option is always greater. And this isn't like winning a sporting trophy, or even an election. In those cases, there are very clear rules and a very clear outcome, and winning is the point. But in this csse Leave will only have won if the UK can a) prosper outside the EU (I think and hope it can, but we'll see) and b) convince large parts of the large and powerful body of opinion still unreconciled to Leave that Leave has worked out for the best. If in 2030 rejoining the EU is as marginal a view as joining the Euro was in 2012, we can probably be sure we made the right decision. And by then it hopefully won't be about which side has won or lost. So from my point of view things are going better than the reverse, probably - but little call for wild celebration yet.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
Perhaps you can tell us what 'it' is which you think is happening.
Please enlighten us with all those great works of art and culture and philosophy you think the EU is responsible for.
And btw European culture doesn't stretch only from the Atlantic to the Urals but has been a part of many other countries around the world for centuries.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
There isn't a common European culture and demos.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
I think there is a common European culture but it is a stretch to say there is a demos. We don't have election debates across countries for example. I am hoping the spread of the English language will change that.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
There isn't a common European culture and demos.
There isn’t a common British culture and demos.
There's certainly not a common Canadian or Belgian Demos.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
There is certainly no European Demos and never will be. And the vast majority of that European culture came into existence long before anyone ever dreamed of the idiotic political experiment called the EU. Are you saying that before Spain joined the EU, Dali and Valzquez and Picasso and Cervantes were not part of European Culture? Are Tchaikovsky and Borodin and Chekhov not part of European culture?
The EU and the EEA are ephemeral political constructs and have no right to lay claim to European culture as their own exclusively.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I
Indeed,
S
I
Funnily enough, this argument doesn’t seem to apply to other nations.
It is a ridiculously weak, and transparently blinkered stance. But ifbothered about.
People can do what they like, but let’s not pretend it’s some patriotic act.
You called it treasonous!
Yes, because he was listening to and celebrating the EU national anthem as the UK broke away.
That is treasonous.
No, it’s not. The EU is not our enemy. It never oppressed us. Things just didn’t work out. Being sad about that, regretting it and consoling yourself with a bit of Beethoven is not the act of a traitor.
I disagree, and on that point hinges Brexit.
If that is truly the case this country is in a whole heap of trouble. Thankfully, though, I think you’re in a small minority. And maybe you won’t be in it tomorrow!
Don’t patronise me.
I’m not. I’m trying not to think the worse of you. I do not believe anyone with half a brain could consider listening to Beethoven an act of treason.
The EU flag is just as much mine as the Union Jack. The fact this annoys people is quite entertaining.
Unless you hold dual nationality that statement is now factually incorrect.
Though it doesn't annoy me at all.
Clearly it does.
No honestly it doesn't. My mood is very good tonight and I was making a merely semantic comment.
As I said earlier I will enjoy all manner of fine European produce over the next few days and, unless there is some sort of desperate trade war going on that I have not heard of, I see nothing treasonous in those of a Remainer bent commiserating with European goodies. And Beethoven is the finest composer in the history of music. I would never criticise anyone for listening to him under any circumstances.
I agree with CR on many things but not on this. It is petty.
Fair enough. However, you might feel differently if your europhile headmaster had made you sing it, in German, each week as the school anthem, replete with EU flag hoisted over the premises.
Yes, that really did happen.
I’ve had the EU and ever closer union foisted down my neck since the age of ten, and am delighted to be finally free of it.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
There isn't a common European culture and demos.
There isn’t a common British culture and demos.
Very true. Which is why Britain is another artificial construct that will have its day and then pass.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I
Indeed,
S
I
Funnily enough, this argument doesn’t seem to apply to other nations.
It is a ridiculously weak, and transparently blinkered stance. But ifbothered about.
People can do what they like, but let’s not pretend it’s some patriotic act.
You called it treasonous!
Yes, because he was listening to and celebrating the EU national anthem as the UK broke away.
That is treasonous.
No, it’s not. The EU is not our enemy. It never oppressed us. Things just didn’t work out. Being sad about that, regretting it and consoling yourself with a bit of Beethoven is not the act of a traitor.
I disagree, and on that point hinges Brexit.
If that is truly the case this country is in a whole heap of trouble. Thankfully, though, I think you’re in a small minority. And maybe you won’t be in it tomorrow!
Don’t patronise me.
I’m not. I’m trying not to think the worse of you. I do not believe anyone with half a brain could consider listening to Beethoven an act of treason.
I'm drinking Old Pultney whiskey and eating Lancaster Bomber cheese. Not because they're British but because I like them and they're in the house. I voted Leave because on balance, and in the long run, I thought the potential for things turning out better - for a given value of better, whuch included overall wealth, how that wealth was shared, democratic accountability, national security, and sundry others - was greater than the potential for things to turn out better inside the EU, acknowledging that there were risks involved in both remaining and leaving, and that the clock couldn't be stayed, orturned back to 2.14 or 2007 or 1992 or 1974 or 1959. This was the unfashionable view, but after a bit of soul-searching I came to the conclusion that I'm reasonably well-informed in politics and exonomics, having a sodding degree in tbe subject and all, and stuck with it. That is, of course, not say the views of certain remain voters are uninformed, just that I had checked that my view was not uninformed. The last three and a half years haven't, on balance, made me believe that this view was a mistake. But it's still an 'on balance'. And the future is unknown. It would havebeen unknown had we remained, of course, but the potential to regret the do-something option is always greater. And this isn't like winning a sporting trophy, or even an election. In those cases, there are very clear rules and a very clear outcome, and winning is the point. But in this csse Leave will only have won if the UK can a) prosper outside the EU (I think and hope it can, but we'll see) and b) convince large parts of the large and powerful body of opinion still unreconciled to Leave that Leave has worked out for the best. If in 2030 rejoining the EU is as marginal a view as joining the Euro was in 2012, we can probably be sure we made the right decision. And by then it hopefully won't be about which side has won or lost. So from my point of view things are going better than the reverse, probably - but little call for wild celebration yet.
This is possibly the wisest comment, on Brexit, I have ever seen on PB.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
I have no such option. And if I did I would be offended that I even had one.
Try getting that into your thick head.
Being able to live and work freely in other countries offends you?
This is a ‘right’ that everyone talks about in theory but never exercises in practice.
I’ve been on this planet nearly 40 years and have never had cause to use it.
You don’t need it for holidays nor for short business trips, so the anger over ‘losing’ it is entirely synthetic.
There are 1.3 million or so UK citizens that have exercised their FoM and many more who might have considered doing so, but that appears to be closing off.
It is of course possible that FoM will be part of the final deal, if not in 2021, then in the future. I note that Starmer supports it as part of our relationship with the EU, presumably as part of an EEA/EFTA arrangement.
What’s your source for that claim?
Even if true, 1.3 million is an astonishingly low percentage of the UK population.
For the vast majority, they simply aren’t that bothered and even if they were using it some restrictions still applied, and other mechanisms will continue to be available to allow UK citizens to work and live in the EU, just as in Canada, Australia, the US etc, subject to revised restrictions.
I can’t get excited about it.
That must be 1.3 million over the entire duration of EU membership, surely?
No, it is the current figure for UK citizens in the EU used on the BBC news tonight. Obviously others have used it and moved back. My brother lived some years in Germany, and my Father some years in France using FoM, but both are now back in the UK.
There was a time when working class Leicester folk retired to Skegness, now it is more Spain, Cyprus and Portugal. Only people of means can now entertain those possibilities, though fortunately I have the wealth to be able to finance that sort of retirement myself.
I have no such option. And if I did I would be offended that I even had one.
Try getting that into your thick head.
Being able to live and work freely in other countries offends you?
This is a ‘right’ that everyone talks about in theory but never exercises in practice.
I’ve been on this planet nearly 40 years and have never had cause to use it.
You don’t need it for holidays nor for short business trips, so the anger over ‘losing’ it is entirely synthetic.
There are 1.3 million or so UK citizens that have exercised their FoM and many more who might have considered doing so, but that appears to be closing off.
It is of course possible that FoM will be part of the final deal, if not in 2021, then in the future. I note that Starmer supports it as part of our relationship with the EU, presumably as part of an EEA/EFTA arrangement.
Many more than 1.3 million when you throw in those who switch between the UK and the EU27 for a few months at a time without giving it a second thought. It will also have a major impact on quite a few types of business trip if, as looks very likely, services are not part of the FTA that ends up being done. FoM will be a slow burner, but it will come to matter a fair bit.
I think this is a nonsense. You’ll pay £6 for a five year ETIAS and queue to go through passport control as you do today, as we’re outside Schengen.
As long as the trip doesn’t exceed 90-180 days. No change.
The EU flag is just as much mine as the Union Jack. The fact this annoys people is quite entertaining.
Unless you hold dual nationality that statement is now factually incorrect.
Though it doesn't annoy me at all.
Clearly it does.
No honestly it doesn't. My mood is very good tonight and I was making a merely semantic comment.
As I said earlier I will enjoy all manner of fine European produce over the next few days and, unless there is some sort of desperate trade war going on that I have not heard of, I see nothing treasonous in those of a Remainer bent commiserating with European goodies. And Beethoven is the finest composer in the history of music. I would never criticise anyone for listening to him under any circumstances.
I agree with CR on many things but not on this. It is petty.
Other than Thom Yorke.
I so want to respond along the lines that the only good thing that Thom Yorke did was to inspire the Postmodern Jukebox cover of 'Creep' but I don't want to get banned so I won't say it.
I have no such option. And if I did I would be offended that I even had one.
Try getting that into your thick head.
Being able to live and work freely in other countries offends you?
This is a ‘right’ that everyone talks about in theory but never exercises in practice.
I’ve been on this planet nearly 40 years and have never had cause to use it.
You don’t need it for holidays nor for short business trips, so the anger over ‘losing’ it is entirely synthetic.
There are 1.3 million or so UK citizens that have exercised their FoM and many more who might have considered doing so, but that appears to be closing off.
It is of course possible that FoM will be part of the final deal, if not in 2021, then in the future. I note that Starmer supports it as part of our relationship with the EU, presumably as part of an EEA/EFTA arrangement.
What’s your source for that claim?
Even if true, 1.3 million is an astonishingly low percentage of the UK population.
For the vast majority, they simply aren’t that bothered and even if they were using it some restrictions still applied, and other mechanisms will continue to be available to allow UK citizens to work and live in the EU, just as in Canada, Australia, the US etc, subject to revised restrictions.
I can’t get excited about it.
That must be 1.3 million over the entire duration of EU membership, surely?
No, it is the current figure for UK citizens in the EU used on the BBC news tonight. Obviously others have used it and moved back. My brother lived some years in Germany, and my Father some years in France using FoM, but both are now back in the UK.
There was a time when working class Leicester folk retired to Skegness, now it is more Spain, Cyprus and Portugal. Only people of means can now entertain those possibilities, though fortunately I have the wealth to be able to finance that sort of retirement myself.
That's still a very low fraction of the populace, given it is cumulative.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
Is it a better idea to try to create a trading bloc in the early 1990s, or the late 2010s & early 2020s? I would say doing so in the early 2020s is at worst the height of stupidity, at best a strategy that will knowingly cause the divisions of Brexit to persist for a very long time.
I have no such option. And if I did I would be offended that I even had one.
Try getting that into your thick head.
Being able to live and work freely in other countries offends you?
This is a ‘right’ that everyone talks about in theory but never exercises in practice.
I’ve been on this planet nearly 40 years and have never had cause to use it.
You don’t need it for holidays nor for short business trips, so the anger over ‘losing’ it is entirely synthetic.
There are 1.3 million or so UK citizens that have exercised their FoM and many more who might have considered doing so, but that appears to be closing off.
It is of course possible that FoM will be part of the final deal, if not in 2021, then in the future. I note that Starmer supports it as part of our relationship with the EU, presumably as part of an EEA/EFTA arrangement.
What’s your source for that claim?
Even if true, 1.3 million is an astonishingly low percentage of the UK population.
For the vast majority, they simply aren’t that bothered and even if they were using it some restrictions still applied, and other mechanisms will continue to be available to allow UK citizens to work and live in the EU, just as in Canada, Australia, the US etc, subject to revised restrictions.
I can’t get excited about it.
That must be 1.3 million over the entire duration of EU membership, surely?
No, it is the current figure for UK citizens in the EU used on the BBC news tonight. Obviously others have used it and moved back. My brother lived some years in Germany, and my Father some years in France using FoM, but both are now back in the UK.
There was a time when working class Leicester folk retired to Skegness, now it is more Spain, Cyprus and Portugal. Only people of means can now entertain those possibilities, though fortunately I have the wealth to be able to finance that sort of retirement myself.
Non-EU citizens need private health insurance and a minimum annual income of €26K to live in Spain. Alternatively, they can buy a property for €500,000. That’s a very big pension pot!
The EU flag is just as much mine as the Union Jack. The fact this annoys people is quite entertaining.
Unless you hold dual nationality that statement is now factually incorrect.
Though it doesn't annoy me at all.
Clearly it does.
No honestly it doesn't. My mood is very good tonight and I was making a merely semantic comment.
As I said earlier I will enjoy all manner of fine European produce over the next few days and, unless there is some sort of desperate trade war going on that I have not heard of, I see nothing treasonous in those of a Remainer bent commiserating with European goodies. And Beethoven is the finest composer in the history of music. I would never criticise anyone for listening to him under any circumstances.
I agree with CR on many things but not on this. It is petty.
Other than Thom Yorke.
I so want to respond along the lines that the only good thing that Thom Yorke did was to inspire the Postmodern Jukebox cover of 'Creep' but I don't want to get banned so I won't say it.
Are you really telling me that (for example) Nude or present tense are not extraordinary creations?
I have a friend who used to play for the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who said "anyone who doesn't like Radiohead, doesn't really like music."
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
And when they started speaking Greek?
Foxy is perhaps one of those who thinks that all you have to do to be understood in another country is talk loudly in English.
The EU flag is just as much mine as the Union Jack. The fact this annoys people is quite entertaining.
Unless you hold dual nationality that statement is now factually incorrect.
Though it doesn't annoy me at all.
Clearly it does.
No honestly it doesn't. My mood is very good tonight and I was making a merely semantic comment.
As I said earlier I will enjoy all manner of fine European produce over the next few days and, unless there is some sort of desperate trade war going on that I have not heard of, I see nothing treasonous in those of a Remainer bent commiserating with European goodies. And Beethoven is the finest composer in the history of music. I would never criticise anyone for listening to him under any circumstances.
I agree with CR on many things but not on this. It is petty.
Other than Thom Yorke.
I so want to respond along the lines that the only good thing that Thom Yorke did was to inspire the Postmodern Jukebox cover of 'Creep' but I don't want to get banned so I won't say it.
Are you really telling me that (for example) Nude or present tense are not extraordinary creations?
I have a friend who used to play for the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who said "anyone who doesn't like Radiohead, doesn't really like music."
Clearly all that load music had addled his senses.
The EU flag is just as much mine as the Union Jack. The fact this annoys people is quite entertaining.
Unless you hold dual nationality that statement is now factually incorrect.
Though it doesn't annoy me at all.
Clearly it does.
No honestly it doesn't. My mood is very good tonight and I was making a merely semantic comment.
As I said earlier I will enjoy all manner of fine European produce over the next few days and, unless there is some sort of desperate trade war going on that I have not heard of, I see nothing treasonous in those of a Remainer bent commiserating with European goodies. And Beethoven is the finest composer in the history of music. I would never criticise anyone for listening to him under any circumstances.
I agree with CR on many things but not on this. It is petty.
Other than Thom Yorke.
I so want to respond along the lines that the only good thing that Thom Yorke did was to inspire the Postmodern Jukebox cover of 'Creep' but I don't want to get banned so I won't say it.
I wish I could get on board with PMJB. I love the concept of big bamd/swing covers of popular songs. But sadly most of what they cover postdates my knowledge of popular music, which ends around 1996. That said, their version of Toto's 'Africa' is superb.
If you like PMJB, I urge you to check oit the Puppini Sisters.
I have no such option. And if I did I would be offended that I even had one.
Try getting that into your thick head.
Being able to live and work freely in other countries offends you?
This is a ‘right’ that everyone talks about in theory but never exercises in practice.
I’ve been on this planet nearly 40 years and have never had cause to use it.
You don’t need it for holidays nor for short business trips, so the anger over ‘losing’ it is entirely synthetic.
There are 1.3 million or so UK citizens that have exercised their FoM and many more who might have considered doing so, but that appears to be closing off.
It is of course possible that FoM will be part of the final deal, if not in 2021, then in the future. I note that Starmer supports it as part of our relationship with the EU, presumably as part of an EEA/EFTA arrangement.
What’s your source for that claim?
Even if true, 1.3 million is an astonishingly low percentage of the UK population.
For the vast majority, they simply aren’t that bothered and even if they were using it some restrictions still applied, and other mechanisms will continue to be available to allow UK citizens to work and live in the EU, just as in Canada, Australia, the US etc, subject to revised restrictions.
I can’t get excited about it.
That must be 1.3 million over the entire duration of EU membership, surely?
No, it is the current figure for UK citizens in the EU used on the BBC news tonight. Obviously others have used it and moved back. My brother lived some years in Germany, and my Father some years in France using FoM, but both are now back in the UK.
There was a time when working class Leicester folk retired to Skegness, now it is more Spain, Cyprus and Portugal. Only people of means can now entertain those possibilities, though fortunately I have the wealth to be able to finance that sort of retirement myself.
That's still a very low fraction of the populace, given it is cumulative.
No it is not cumulative. My brother lived and worked in the rEU for six years, and my father for three, but neither would fit in the current figure.
It is quite common also for the younger retired to move to the Costas, then to return when their health declines a decade or so later, and they return to be closer to children and grandchildren. I see it all the time with my patients.
The number of Brits who have ever used FoM is obviously considerably more than the current 1.3 million.
I’m not. I’m trying not to think the worse of you. I do not believe anyone with half a brain could consider listening to Beethoven an act of treason.
The Ode to Joy is a much better tune than our dismal dirge of a national anthem. Especially when you sing Freiheit instead of Freude.
It was a good tune before being besmirched by the EU and it's still good despite that. Of our national songs, only Jerusalem and Rule Britannia are more stirring. Even Land of Hope and Glory doesn't really make it.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
And when they started speaking Greek?
I can converse with them in German.
How many Greeks know German? Must be a vanishingly small fraction.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
And when they started speaking Greek?
On reflection, I'm sort of with Foxy here. It's easier to feel a kinship with people who you don't understand than with those you do but who through understanding you know you clearly disagree with. Fact is, there's almost certainly just as many people in Greece whose views you disagree with, if only you could undeestamd them, amd plenty of those in Parliament Square whom in other circumstances you could find things in common with. But when people are brought together explicitly for a reason you fundamentally disagree with then its easy to prefer people whose language you don't understand.
Edit, after reading the indented comments - but that said I'm not convinced there can be a demos without an almost universal common language. I may not agree with my neighbours, or even feel at home in tbeir company, but we are part of the same demos.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
And when they started speaking Greek?
Foxy is perhaps one of those who thinks that all you have to do to be understood in another country is talk loudly in English.
Nah, whenever in a foreign country, I speak as much of the language that I can. It is polite and appreciated.
I’m not. I’m trying not to think the worse of you. I do not believe anyone with half a brain could consider listening to Beethoven an act of treason.
The Ode to Joy is a much better tune than our dismal dirge of a national anthem. Especially when you sing Freiheit instead of Freude.
It was a good tune before being besmirched by the EU and it's still good despite that. Of our national songs, only Jerusalem and Rule Britannia are more stirring. Even Land of Hope and Glory doesn't really make it.
Jerusalem is a magnificent tune. (And very musically complex - it could almost have been composed by Radiohead.)
It's sad that the British National Anthem is so... Dull.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
And when they started speaking Greek?
I can converse with them in German.
How many Greeks know German? Must be a vanishingly small fraction.
Greeks more often speak it than English in my experience, but Greek doctors almost all speak both fluently.
Obviously, I have more in common with medical professionals in any other country than fishermen or miners there, but I also find that I have more in common culturally with my EU colleagues than I do with folk like Farage.
The EU flag is just as much mine as the Union Jack. The fact this annoys people is quite entertaining.
Unless you hold dual nationality that statement is now factually incorrect.
Though it doesn't annoy me at all.
Clearly it does.
No honestly it doesn't. My mood is very good tonight and I was making a merely semantic comment.
As I said earlier I will enjoy all manner of fine European produce over the next few days and, unless there is some sort of desperate trade war going on that I have not heard of, I see nothing treasonous in those of a Remainer bent commiserating with European goodies. And Beethoven is the finest composer in the history of music. I would never criticise anyone for listening to him under any circumstances.
I agree with CR on many things but not on this. It is petty.
Other than Thom Yorke.
I so want to respond along the lines that the only good thing that Thom Yorke did was to inspire the Postmodern Jukebox cover of 'Creep' but I don't want to get banned so I won't say it.
Are you really telling me that (for example) Nude or present tense are not extraordinary creations?
I have a friend who used to play for the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who said "anyone who doesn't like Radiohead, doesn't really like music."
Reckoner is a perfectly poised thing of beauty.
And I always remember singing Street Spirit in the driving rain with thousands and thinking after that it was the closest this atheist is likely to get to a religious experience.
Anyway, Brexit. Huzzah! I think I shall celebrate with a Cumberland sausage sandwich, some Fortnum’s brown sauce and a Radiohead medley.
Next up final approval for HS2. Saj played a blinder this week on that beating Dom at his own game. Has gone up in my estimation.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
And when they started speaking Greek?
I can converse with them in German.
How many Greeks know German? Must be a vanishingly small fraction.
Greeks more often speak it than English in my experience, but Greek doctors almost all speak both fluently.
Obviously, I have more in common with medical professionals in any other country than fishermen or miners there, but I also find that I have more in common culturally with my EU colleagues than I do with folk like Farage.
Still not seeing any evidence of an EU-wide demos.
The EU flag is just as much mine as the Union Jack. The fact this annoys people is quite entertaining.
Unless you hold dual nationality that statement is now factually incorrect.
Though it doesn't annoy me at all.
Clearly it does.
No honestly it doesn't. My mood is very good tonight and I was making a merely semantic comment.
As I said earlier I will enjoy all manner of fine European produce over the next few days and, unless there is some sort of desperate trade war going on that I have not heard of, I see nothing treasonous in those of a Remainer bent commiserating with European goodies. And Beethoven is the finest composer in the history of music. I would never criticise anyone for listening to him under any circumstances.
I agree with CR on many things but not on this. It is petty.
Other than Thom Yorke.
I so want to respond along the lines that the only good thing that Thom Yorke did was to inspire the Postmodern Jukebox cover of 'Creep' but I don't want to get banned so I won't say it.
Are you really telling me that (for example) Nude or present tense are not extraordinary creations?
I have a friend who used to play for the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who said "anyone who doesn't like Radiohead, doesn't really like music."
Reckoner is a perfectly poised thing of beauty.
And I always remember singing Street Spirit in the driving rain with thousands and thinking after that it was the closest this atheist is likely to get to a religious experience.
Anyway, Brexit. Huzzah! I think I shall celebrate with a Cumberland sausage sandwich, some Fortnum’s brown sauce and a Radiohead medley.
Next up final approval for HS2. Saj played a blinder this week on that beating Dom at his own game. Has gone up in my estimation.
Reckoner is a beautiful track. The In Rainbows disk b is also well with listening to.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
And when they started speaking Greek?
I can converse with them in German.
How many Greeks know German? Must be a vanishingly small fraction.
Greeks more often speak it than English in my experience, but Greek doctors almost all speak both fluently.
Obviously, I have more in common with medical professionals in any other country than fishermen or miners there, but I also find that I have more in common culturally with my EU colleagues than I do with folk like Farage.
Still not seeing any evidence of an EU-wide demos.
Quite obviously some do not feel part of it, but equally obviously many of us do.
I was better represented politically by my LD MEP than my Tory MP.
Oh yes there is. Clearly many Britons including myself are proudly part of both. Leavers do not have a monopoly of issues of identity simply because they deny the validity of others affiliations.
No, there isn't. If there was a common demos in the EU, you'd feel just at home in deepest rural Romania as you do in the UK. I doubt very much that is the case.
That is plainly bollocks. I would feel more alien in Parliament square tonight than in a Taverna with my Greek colleagues. I simply have more in common with their world view than that of the spiteful nationalism of Farage.
And when they started speaking Greek?
I can converse with them in German.
How many Greeks know German? Must be a vanishingly small fraction.
Greeks more often speak it than English in my experience, but Greek doctors almost all speak both fluently.
Obviously, I have more in common with medical professionals in any other country than fishermen or miners there, but I also find that I have more in common culturally with my EU colleagues than I do with folk like Farage.
Still not seeing any evidence of an EU-wide demos.
Quite obviously some do not feel part of it, but equally obviously many of us do.
I was better represented politically by my LD MEP than my Tory MP.
How many from Romania feel part of this same demos? I suspect nearly none.
As for who you were better represented by, aren't they both British?
I'd have preferred to have stayed in the 1990s version of the EU if it had still existed.
Which is why I think that John Major was the turning point with his obsession with staying in the ERM and then forcing through the Maastricht treaty.
Probably true. Also, doing things like getting rid of border checks in 1995 between say Germany and the Netherlands (and most of the other mainland EU countries) was the sort of thing 95% of people were happy with at the time. It's a pity they couldn't continue doing uncontroversially popular things like that, but events always intervene like the migrant crisis.
Increases in the number of MEPs that have just come into effect:
France: 74 to 79. Italy: 73 to 76. Spain: 54 to 59. Poland: 51 to 52. Romania: 32 to 33. Netherlands: 26 to 29. Sweden: 20 to 21. Austria: 18 to 19. Denmark: 13 to 14. Finland: 13 to 14. Slovakia: 13 to 14. Ireland: 11 to 13. Croatia: 11 to 12. Estonia: 6 to 7.
Increases in the number of MEPs that have just come into effect:
France: 74 to 79. Italy: 73 to 76. Spain: 54 to 59. Poland: 51 to 52. Romania: 32 to 33. Netherlands: 26 to 29. Sweden: 20 to 21. Austria: 18 to 19. Denmark: 13 to 14. Finland: 13 to 14. Slovakia: 13 to 14. Ireland: 11 to 13. Croatia: 11 to 12. Estonia: 6 to 7.
I’m not. I’m trying not to think the worse of you. I do not believe anyone with half a brain could consider listening to Beethoven an act of treason.
The Ode to Joy is a much better tune than our dismal dirge of a national anthem. Especially when you sing Freiheit instead of Freude.
It was a good tune before being besmirched by the EU and it's still good despite that. Of our national songs, only Jerusalem and Rule Britannia are more stirring. Even Land of Hope and Glory doesn't really make it.
Jerusalem is a magnificent tune. (And very musically complex - it could almost have been composed by Radiohead.)
It's sad that the British National Anthem is so... Dull.
Jerusalem is a patriotic English song, not a British one though. It should.be adopted as the official English anthem.
I’m not. I’m trying not to think the worse of you. I do not believe anyone with half a brain could consider listening to Beethoven an act of treason.
The Ode to Joy is a much better tune than our dismal dirge of a national anthem. Especially when you sing Freiheit instead of Freude.
It was a good tune before being besmirched by the EU and it's still good despite that. Of our national songs, only Jerusalem and Rule Britannia are more stirring. Even Land of Hope and Glory doesn't really make it.
Jerusalem is a magnificent tune. (And very musically complex - it could almost have been composed by Radiohead.)
It's sad that the British National Anthem is so... Dull.
Jerusalem is a patriotic English song, not a British one though. It should.be adopted as the official English anthem.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
Trivia Point. The Going For Gold theme tune was created by Hans Zimmer before he went to the USA. My late half-brother (his cousin) was visiting the studio that day and was asked to muck in as one of the voices singing/exclaiming the "Going For Gold" words. My brother loved telling that story.
I'm drinking Old Pultney whiskey and eating Lancaster Bomber cheese. Not because they're British but because I like them and they're in the house. I voted Leave because on balance, and in the long run, I thought the potential for things turning out better - for a given value of better, whuch included overall wealth, how that wealth was shared, democratic accountability, national security, and sundry others - was greater than the potential for things to turn out better inside the EU, acknowledging that there were risks involved in both remaining and leaving, and that the clock couldn't be stayed, orturned back to 2.14 or 2007 or 1992 or 1974 or 1959. This was the unfashionable view, but after a bit of soul-searching I came to the conclusion that I'm reasonably well-informed in politics and exonomics, having a sodding degree in tbe subject and all, and stuck with it. That is, of course, not say the views of certain remain voters are uninformed, just that I had checked that my view was not uninformgnerations on just what Leave mmed. The last three and a half years haven't, on balance, made me believe that this view was a mistake. But it's still an 'on balance'. And the future is unknown. It would havebeen unknown had we remained, of course, but the potential to regret the do-something option is always greater. And this isn't like winning a sporting trophy, or even an election. In those cases, there are very clear rules and a very clear outcome, and winning is the point. But in this csse Leave will only have won if the UK can a) prosper outside the EU (I think and hope it can, but we'll see) and b) convince large parts of the large and powerful body of opinion still unreconciled to Leave that Leave has worked out for the best. If in 2030 rejoining the EU is as marginal a view as joining the Euro was in 2012, we can probably be sure we made the right decision. And by then it hopefully won't be about which side has won or lost. So from my point of view things are going better than the reverse, probably - but little call for wild celebration yet.
This should be tidied up and turned into a thread header. It deserves to be preservd wth greater ease of access, for those in future trying to read the mood of a chunk of the nation at the moment we walked away.
I’m not. I’m trying not to think the worse of you. I do not believe anyone with half a brain could consider listening to Beethoven an act of treason.
The Ode to Joy is a much better tune than our dismal dirge of a national anthem. Especially when you sing Freiheit instead of Freude.
It was a good tune before being besmirched by the EU and it's still good despite that. Of our national songs, only Jerusalem and Rule Britannia are more stirring. Even Land of Hope and Glory doesn't really make it.
Jerusalem is a magnificent tune. (And very musically complex - it could almost have been composed by Radiohead.)
It's sad that the British National Anthem is so... Dull.
Jerusalem is a patriotic English song, not a British one though. It should.be adopted as the official English anthem.
My wife unexpectedly appeared with some French cheese, we opened a bottle of Italian wine, and listened to Beethoven's 9th, including Ode to Joy. I am feeling quite mellow. My biggest regret tonight is for the United Kingdom, which I think has been irreparably damaged by Brexit.
Treasonous and pathetic.
Such behaviour is what pisses off Leavers, and why they’re not all happy, because it demonstrates no love or loyalty for the UK.
I’m afraid you don’t own patriotism or get to define it. That’s not how things work in Britain!
What’s patriotic about that celebration? Seriously, *anything* listed?
Leavers get cross at Remoaners because they think their loyalties are in doubt, and they are called racist idiots in return.
That’s where a lot of the bile comes from.
I do not think eating French cheese, drinking Italian wine and listening to Beethoven is unpatriotic. I certainly don’t regard it as treasonous. My guess is most Brits would feel the same.
Indeed, our Royal Family are German and Greek, and our national board set his most famous plays in Italy, Denmark, and Greece.
So you are saying that the Queen is German ?
British nationality, born in Britain, parents born in Britain, 3/4 grandparents born in Britain, lived throughout her life in Britain.
How many of the British people in Leicester don't count as British by that definition ?
No, merely pointing out that our culture is closely intertwined with our continental neighbours and friends, it always has been and always will be. It is just from now on we will be outside the room where it happens.
So European culture comes from the EU in your opinion.
Well I suppose it can lay a claim to Henry Kelly's Going for Gold and Eldorado.
No, but the EU is an expression of that common European Culture and Demos. Shortly we will join Belarus and Russia in being outside the EU, EEA, Customs Union or countries applying to be in at least one of these three. This is deliberately isolating us from the room where it happens.
I'm drinking Old Pultney whiskey and eating Lancaster Bomber cheese. Not because they're British but because I like them and they're in the house. I voted Leave because on balance, and in the long run, I thought the potential for things turning out better - for a given value of better, whuch included overall wealth, how that wealth was shared, democratic accountability, national security, and sundry others - was greater than the potential for things to turn out better inside the EU, acknowledging that there were risks involved in both remaining and leaving, and that the clock couldn't be stayed, orturned back to 2.14 or 2007 or 1992 or 1974 or 1959. This was the unfashionable view, but after a bit of soul-searching I came to the conclusion that I'm reasonably well-informed in politics and exonomics, having a sodding degree in tbe subject and all, and stuck with it. That is, of course, not say the views of certain remain voters are uninformed, just that I had checked that my view was not uninformgnerations on just what Leave mmed. The last three and a half years haven't, on balance, made me believe that this view was a mistake. But it's still an 'on balance'. And the future is unknown. It would havebeen unknown had we remained, of course, but the potential to regret the do-something option is always greater. And this isn't like winning a sporting trophy, or even an election. In those cases, there are very clear rules and a very clear outcome, and winning is the point. But in this csse Leave will only have won if the UK can a) prosper outside the EU (I think and hope it can, but we'll see) and b) convince large parts of the large and powerful body of opinion still unreconciled to Leave that Leave has worked out for the best. If in 2030 rejoining the EU is as marginal a view as joining the Euro was in 2012, we can probably be sure we made the right decision. And by then it hopefully won't be about which side has won or lost. So from my point of view things are going better than the reverse, probably - but little call for wild celebration yet.
This should be tidied up and turned into a thread header. It deserves to be preservd wth greater ease of access, for those in future trying to read the mood of a chunk of the nation at the moment we walked away.
@MarqueeMark - that's very kind. I wondered what you meant by 'tidied up', and reread it - ouch. Fat fingers, a small phone and failing eyes are to blame. And perhaps the Old Pultney mentioned in the first line. But the sentiment is the same in sobriety.
Comments
Even if true, 1.3 million is an astonishingly low percentage of the UK population.
For the vast majority, they simply aren’t that bothered and even if they were using it some restrictions still applied, and other mechanisms will continue to be available to allow UK citizens to work and live in the EU, just as in Canada, Australia, the US etc, subject to revised restrictions.
I can’t get excited about it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#/media/File:Global_European_Union.svg
As long as the trip doesn’t exceed 90-180 days. No change.
I voted Leave because on balance, and in the long run, I thought the potential for things turning out better - for a given value of better, whuch included overall wealth, how that wealth was shared, democratic accountability, national security, and sundry others - was greater than the potential for things to turn out better inside the EU, acknowledging that there were risks involved in both remaining and leaving, and that the clock couldn't be stayed, orturned back to 2.14 or 2007 or 1992 or 1974 or 1959. This was the unfashionable view, but after a bit of soul-searching I came to the conclusion that I'm reasonably well-informed in politics and exonomics, having a sodding degree in tbe subject and all, and stuck with it. That is, of course, not say the views of certain remain voters are uninformed, just that I had checked that my view was not uninformed.
The last three and a half years haven't, on balance, made me believe that this view was a mistake. But it's still an 'on balance'. And the future is unknown. It would havebeen unknown had we remained, of course, but the potential to regret the do-something option is always greater.
And this isn't like winning a sporting trophy, or even an election. In those cases, there are very clear rules and a very clear outcome, and winning is the point. But in this csse Leave will only have won if the UK can a) prosper outside the EU (I think and hope it can, but we'll see) and b) convince large parts of the large and powerful body of opinion still unreconciled to Leave that Leave has worked out for the best. If in 2030 rejoining the EU is as marginal a view as joining the Euro was in 2012, we can probably be sure we made the right decision. And by then it hopefully won't be about which side has won or lost.
So from my point of view things are going better than the reverse, probably - but little call for wild celebration yet.
Please enlighten us with all those great works of art and culture and philosophy you think the EU is responsible for.
And btw European culture doesn't stretch only from the Atlantic to the Urals but has been a part of many other countries around the world for centuries.
The EU and the EEA are ephemeral political constructs and have no right to lay claim to European culture as their own exclusively.
Yes, that really did happen.
I’ve had the EU and ever closer union foisted down my neck since the age of ten, and am delighted to be finally free of it.
It’s a political statement.
This is possibly the wisest comment, on Brexit, I have ever seen on PB.
Applause, and goodnight.
There was a time when working class Leicester folk retired to Skegness, now it is more Spain, Cyprus and Portugal. Only people of means can now entertain those possibilities, though fortunately I have the wealth to be able to finance that sort of retirement myself.
Behold the Ulsterisation of Great Britain.
🇪🇺
I have a friend who used to play for the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who said "anyone who doesn't like Radiohead, doesn't really like music."
If you like PMJB, I urge you to check oit the Puppini Sisters.
It is quite common also for the younger retired to move to the Costas, then to return when their health declines a decade or so later, and they return to be closer to children and grandchildren. I see it all the time with my patients.
The number of Brits who have ever used FoM is obviously considerably more than the current 1.3 million.
It was a good tune before being besmirched by the EU and it's still good despite that. Of our national songs, only Jerusalem and Rule Britannia are more stirring. Even Land of Hope and Glory doesn't really make it.
Fact is, there's almost certainly just as many people in Greece whose views you disagree with, if only you could undeestamd them, amd plenty of those in Parliament Square whom in other circumstances you could find things in common with. But when people are brought together explicitly for a reason you fundamentally disagree with then its easy to prefer people whose language you don't understand.
Edit, after reading the indented comments - but that said I'm not convinced there can be a demos without an almost universal common language. I may not agree with my neighbours, or even feel at home in tbeir company, but we are part of the same demos.
It's sad that the British National Anthem is so... Dull.
Obviously, I have more in common with medical professionals in any other country than fishermen or miners there, but I also find that I have more in common culturally with my EU colleagues than I do with folk like Farage.
And I always remember singing Street Spirit in the driving rain with thousands and thinking after that it was the closest this atheist is likely to get to a religious experience.
Anyway, Brexit. Huzzah! I think I shall celebrate with a Cumberland sausage sandwich, some Fortnum’s brown sauce and a Radiohead medley.
Next up final approval for HS2. Saj played a blinder this week on that beating Dom at his own game. Has gone up in my estimation.
https://twitter.com/OsgurOCiardha/status/1223408406343700483?s=20
I was better represented politically by my LD MEP than my Tory MP.
As for who you were better represented by, aren't they both British?
France: 74 to 79.
Italy: 73 to 76.
Spain: 54 to 59.
Poland: 51 to 52.
Romania: 32 to 33.
Netherlands: 26 to 29.
Sweden: 20 to 21.
Austria: 18 to 19.
Denmark: 13 to 14.
Finland: 13 to 14.
Slovakia: 13 to 14.
Ireland: 11 to 13.
Croatia: 11 to 12.
Estonia: 6 to 7.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_Parliament#Changes_in_membership