It’s something Labourites talk about and worry about, but won’t vote about.
The issue at the moment is they haven’t yet worked out a good enough narrative to explain electing Starmer. Once that’s established it will become mantra and the ‘problem’ will go away.
You keep saying this but I am a Labourite and I'm telling you that I desperately want a woman.
This does not mean I will discard all of my better judgement in the decision I must ultimately make but it does mean I am influenced by gender.
Everyone else has moved on to electing the best person for the job. Positive discrimination is so last century....
“ I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
Why do modern leftists disagree so much with this statement?
No percentage for those who've dabbled with antisemitic & Islamophobic memes? Perhaps that's for part 2.
Did that SNP candidate who did similar get elected?
Yes - the SNP vote held up pretty well and Con/Slab share declined.
The Anti-Soros meme was AFAIK started by a Jewish-Americam political analyst to give Orban a bogeyman opponent once he had crushed the socialists under his bootheel. It was only later that it was adopted by anti-semitic types.
One bit worth mentioning (as it may surprise people) are the MPs campaigning for their constituency /town to escape / secede from their current council.
It's often the case that any town that isn't the county town in a council area to be given the short straw. The merger of County Durham into one authority has caused resentment everywhere outside Durham City itself.
What's even funnier is that Durham City residents don't want to be associated with the rest of the county even though it's done well out of the deal.
Everywhere should be unitary, the duplication of effort on websites/buildings and generally for two tier authorities is an expense (And carbon emissions) we can not afford in these straitened times. Where I am it should be North Nottinghamshire; Nottingham; South Nottinghamshire.
Totally agree with this. Unitaries are the way to go.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who was a county councillor some time ago, when I was still a conservative party activist. He told me the biggest block to this comes from the voluntary Conservative Party - basically there will be less councillor posts for activists if you cut district councils. When you think about it, it makes absolute logical sense to realign our local government. Most voters have no idea what the difference is, and why we have so many tiers.
Not just that but if you cut district councils you also remove a whole layer of more locally connected government, planning in particular would be covered for the whole county rather than based on more specific needs of the local town and its district.
In Epping for example, we would have a county council serving over a million people and a town council serving 11 000 people and nothing in between if Epping Forest District Council was scrapped
Many unitaries have area planning committees often modelled on old district areas and strategic committees. They might also have more locally focused area committees with delegated powers. It's not an insurmountable problem.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
The single most interesting thing that I've learned from the exercise is that @Fishing has far more eyecatching travel destinations than I do.
Dogger Bank? Western Approaches?
Currently Guatemala since you ask.
Nice. Central America and the Caribbean are my least visted parts of the world. Trinidad for a day is the sum total.
Well I've done Panama to Guatemala on this trip and it has been fun. Gave me the time to help Mr Meeks with this thread. Nicaragua and Guatemala have been the best.
In 2015 I went in the opposite direction, from Nicaragua to Panama City, on an organised cycling tour (not the whole distance!). It remains one of the most memorable hols I've ever done. We spent the fortnight eagerly looking to spot a sloth, and on the last day rounded a corner en masse and narrowly avoided making one roadkill!
It’s something Labourites talk about and worry about, but won’t vote about.
The issue at the moment is they haven’t yet worked out a good enough narrative to explain electing Starmer. Once that’s established it will become mantra and the ‘problem’ will go away.
You keep saying this but I am a Labourite and I'm telling you that I desperately want a woman.
Have you tried eHarmony?
Very good. I'm reminded of this deathless piece of diplomatic correspondence from WW2:
H.M. EMBASSY MOSCOW
Lord Pembroke The Foreign Office London
6th April 1943
My Dear Reggie,
In these dark days man tends to look for little shafts of light that spill from Heaven. My days are probably darker than yours, and I need, my God I do, all the light I can get. But I am a decent fellow, and I do not want to be mean and selfish about what little brightness is shed upon me from time to time. So I propose to share with you a tiny flash that has illuminated my sombre life and tell you that God has given me a new Turkish colleague whose card tells me that he is called Mustapha Kunt.
We all feel like that, Reggie, now and then, especially when Spring is upon us, but few of us would care to put it on our cards. It takes a Turk to do that.
At the moment you probably just need to ask (which you seem to be): Who will best facilitate the recovery of the Labour Party with the broader electorate, and in particular the floating voter? Anecdotally I can tell you that as a one time Conservative who voted LD at the recent GE, I could see myself being moderately pleased with Starmer as PM, and might even vote Lab if the policies were not too anti-business. Could never see me making that leap with any of the others.
So that is genuinely of interest. I take very seriously the views of anybody who MIGHT vote Labour next time. People who never would, regardless, I tend to discount somewhat on this one. And as I say, I am now leaning slightly towards Starmer. Perhaps he is - quite literally - the only man for the job.
Starmer is a barrister so should be able to hold Boris to account at PMQs. Trouble is, they said that about Michael Howard yet he barely dented Tony Blair. And if Starmer did lay a glove on Boris, I expect he'd find ever more elaborate reasons not to turn up.
Starmer is soporifically dull. I doubt any voter can stay awake listening to this man. However, there is training and coaching available. It worked for Mrs Thatcher. Until it does, RLB and Nandy beat him for charisma.
I do not see Starmer as the solution, except in the negative sense that electing anyone else will make Starmer the king across the water, which could split the party.
It’s something Labourites talk about and worry about, but won’t vote about.
The issue at the moment is they haven’t yet worked out a good enough narrative to explain electing Starmer. Once that’s established it will become mantra and the ‘problem’ will go away.
You keep saying this but I am a Labourite and I'm telling you that I desperately want a woman.
This does not mean I will discard all of my better judgement in the decision I must ultimately make but it does mean I am influenced by gender.
Everyone else has moved on to electing the best person for the job. Positive discrimination is so last century....
“ I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
Why do modern leftists disagree so much with this statement?
Good point in principle, but there comes a time when continued coincidence between character and skin colour (or gender) starts to look as iffy as the coin tosses in Rosencranz and G Are Dead. Here we have one man and four women, and if someone as boring and colourless as Starmer is getting a walkover you are entitled to ask why.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
Weren’t New Zealand and Australia built on low-skilled Poms arriving?
Nope, it was built on Poms arriving some of whom were low-skilled.
The idea that any country is willingly going to accept low-skilled workers on working visas is a fantasy - heck we left the EU because we didn't like it.
Japan effectively does - they're short of people to work in restaurants, convenience stores, agriculture, elderly care etc so they let low-skilled people from overseas (mostly poorer Asian countries) in to do it. There's an official justification of calling these people "trainees" and pretending they're learning highly-advanced Japanese shitty-job skills that they will take back to their country of origin (which also helps justify shitty pay and conditions), but everybody knows that's not really what's going on.
However I guess the UK (and likewise Australia/NZ) has a lot more overseas students since a lot of people want to spend some time in an English-speaking country, so the British can fill a lot of these jobs just by letting people in to study and letting them work part-time.
One bit worth mentioning (as it may surprise people) are the MPs campaigning for their constituency /town to escape / secede from their current council.
It's often the case that any town that isn't the county town in a council area to be given the short straw. The merger of County Durham into one authority has caused resentment everywhere outside Durham City itself.
What's even funnier is that Durham City residents don't want to be associated with the rest of the county even though it's done well out of the deal.
Everywhere should be unitary, the duplication of effort on websites/buildings and generally for two tier authorities is an expense (And carbon emissions) we can not afford in these straitened times. Where I am it should be North Nottinghamshire; Nottingham; South Nottinghamshire.
Totally agree with this. Unitaries are the way to go.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who was a county councillor some time ago, when I was still a conservative party activist. He told me the biggest block to this comes from the voluntary Conservative Party - basically there will be less councillor posts for activists if you cut district councils. When you think about it, it makes absolute logical sense to realign our local government. Most voters have no idea what the difference is, and why we have so many tiers.
Not just that but if you cut district councils you also remove a whole layer of more locally connected government, planning in particular would be covered for the whole county rather than based on more specific needs of the local town and its district.
In Epping for example, we would have a county council serving over a million people and a town council serving 11 000 people and nothing in between if Epping Forest District Council was scrapped
Many unitaries have area planning committees often modelled on old district areas and strategic committees. They might also have more locally focused area committees with delegated powers. It's not an insurmountable problem.
Yet still without the guarantee of local district councillors deciding on planning for their district
I obviously don't have a vote in the Labour leadership contest (nor would I want one - I was never a fan of the three quidders, not that they made any difference to the result). But if I did, I would vote for Nandy, on the basis that she seems the candidate who would be best for political dialogue in this country. If she helps keep my lot on the straight and narrow, all to the good.
I don't have that confidence in the others to deliver a better politics.
That is because you are a Tory who hopes for a weak opposition. Most of you realise that if Starmer is up against the Clown, the Clown is going to look even more clownish. Starmer comes across as a heavyweight. Nandy comes across as a presentable middle manager at best, and will not be seen by the electorate as a credible PM in waiting
Stop ascribing your own dodgy motives to me. I objectively believe Nandy to be the best candidate on offer.
I obviously don't have a vote in the Labour leadership contest (nor would I want one - I was never a fan of the three quidders, not that they made any difference to the result). But if I did, I would vote for Nandy, on the basis that she seems the candidate who would be best for political dialogue in this country. If she helps keep my lot on the straight and narrow, all to the good.
I don't have that confidence in the others to deliver a better politics.
That is because you are a Tory who hopes for a weak opposition. Most of you realise that if Starmer is up against the Clown, the Clown is going to look even more clownish. Starmer comes across as a heavyweight. Nandy comes across as a presentable middle manager at best, and will not be seen by the electorate as a credible PM in waiting
Stop ascribing your own dodgy motives to me. I objectively believe Nandy to be the best candidate on offer.
I agree. The case for Starmer is that the antidote to Bozo is boring and dull. But I don’t think that will work.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Depends on UK economic performance. IF we do badly, they will be back in force.
Everyone else has moved on to electing the best person for the job. Positive discrimination is so last century....
I have just explained (and in quite some forensic detail) why in these special circumstances - the nation's premier progressive political party being alone in never having had a female leader - being a woman is quite validly a part of being the best person for the job! Sometimes wonder why I bother.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Interesting. The Lib Dems will clearly become the Rejoin party. They could still surge back, on that basis.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
One bit worth mentioning (as it may surprise people) are the MPs campaigning for their constituency /town to escape / secede from their current council.
It's often the case that any town that isn't the county town in a council area to be given the short straw. The merger of County Durham into one authority has caused resentment everywhere outside Durham City itself.
What's even funnier is that Durham City residents don't want to be associated with the rest of the county even though it's done well out of the deal.
Everywhere should be unitary, the duplication of effort on websites/buildings and generally for two tier authorities is an expense (And carbon emissions) we can not afford in these straitened times. Where I am it should be North Nottinghamshire; Nottingham; South Nottinghamshire.
Totally agree with this. Unitaries are the way to go.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who was a county councillor some time ago, when I was still a conservative party activist. He told me the biggest block to this comes from the voluntary Conservative Party - basically there will be less councillor posts for activists if you cut district councils. When you think about it, it makes absolute logical sense to realign our local government. Most voters have no idea what the difference is, and why we have so many tiers.
Not just that but if you cut district councils you also remove a whole layer of more locally connected government, planning in particular would be covered for the whole county rather than based on more specific needs of the local town and its district.
In Epping for example, we would have a county council serving over a million people and a town council serving 11 000 people and nothing in between if Epping Forest District Council was scrapped
Many unitaries have area planning committees often modelled on old district areas and strategic committees. They might also have more locally focused area committees with delegated powers. It's not an insurmountable problem.
Yet still without the guarantee of local district councillors deciding on planning for their district
It s perfectly possible to devolve planning to an area committee comprised of councillors only from that area.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Depends on UK economic performance. IF we do badly, they will be back in force.
Yes, that’s surely true. My guess is the UK will do considerably better than expected. Again, the Remainers have played a terrible long game. By constantly forecasting Apocalypse they have made any other outcome look OK
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Interesting. The Lib Dems will clearly become the Rejoin party. They could still surge back, on that basis.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
Can you give us some examples of these 'twitter remainers' ? I haven't had a good laugh in a while
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Depends on UK economic performance. IF we do badly, they will be back in force.
Yes, that’s surely true. My guess is the UK will do considerably better than expected. Again, the Remainers have played a terrible long game. By constantly forecasting Apocalypse they have made any other outcome look OK
It reminds me of the OTT reaction to government cuts. It was all back to Wigan pier day in day out, then when the world didn't implode people weren't interested in listening to the more realistic complaints over issues that cropped up.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
I know facts don't generally matter much with everybody so entrenched but I think it genuinely does depend on how Brexit is going. If the economy is looking good and nothing is exploding I think it'll just form part of a wider political identity, but the EU as a specific issue will take a back seat. But if there's widely identifiable trouble - including say recession that's also happening in other countries and isn't really brexit's fault - I think there will be a significant group that wants to rejoin. The latter is probably an endlessly uncomfortable situation for Labour, but who knows.
One bit worth mentioning (as it may surprise people) are the MPs campaigning for their constituency /town to escape / secede from their current council.
It's often the case that any town that isn't the county town in a council area to be given the short straw. The merger of County Durham into one authority has caused resentment everywhere outside Durham City itself.
What's even funnier is that Durham City residents don't want to be associated with the rest of the county even though it's done well out of the deal.
Everywhere should be unitary, the duplication of effort on websites/buildings and generally for two tier authorities is an expense (And carbon emissions) we can not afford in these straitened times. Where I am it should be North Nottinghamshire; Nottingham; South Nottinghamshire.
Totally agree with this. Unitaries are the way to go.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who was a county councillor some time ago, when I was still a conservative party activist. He told me the biggest block to this comes from the voluntary Conservative Party - basically there will be less councillor posts for activists if you cut district councils. When you think about it, it makes absolute logical sense to realign our local government. Most voters have no idea what the difference is, and why we have so many tiers.
Not just that but if you cut district councils you also remove a whole layer of more locally connected government, planning in particular would be covered for the whole county rather than based on more specific needs of the local town and its district.
In Epping for example, we would have a county council serving over a million people and a town council serving 11 000 people and nothing in between if Epping Forest District Council was scrapped
Many unitaries have area planning committees often modelled on old district areas and strategic committees. They might also have more locally focused area committees with delegated powers. It's not an insurmountable problem.
Yet still without the guarantee of local district councillors deciding on planning for their district
You don't just go from district (Which is too small) to County (Where the areas are massive), unitary is an intermediate step and I can tell you city/unitary councillors are very on top of local planning issues !
It’s something Labourites talk about and worry about, but won’t vote about.
The issue at the moment is they haven’t yet worked out a good enough narrative to explain electing Starmer. Once that’s established it will become mantra and the ‘problem’ will go away.
You keep saying this but I am a Labourite and I'm telling you that I desperately want a woman.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Interesting. The Lib Dems will clearly become the Rejoin party. They could still surge back, on that basis.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Depends on UK economic performance. IF we do badly, they will be back in force.
We don't just have to do badly (likely), we have to do badly while rEU visibly prospers (less likely).
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Interesting. The Lib Dems will clearly become the Rejoin party. They could still surge back, on that basis.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
Can you give us some examples of these 'twitter remainers' ? I haven't had a good laugh in a while
The usual. Dunt. Bullock. Seb Dance. James o brien. Femi. Ottocrat. Terry Christian. There’s lots of them.
Go to their most popular tweets then read the threads beneath. They are a Book of Mad Lamentations. Total psychic meltdown.
I've not yet checked but I believe about half the Etonian MPs retired (some because they'd been sacked by Boris).
I hope and pray that this is our last Old Etonian PM for a long long time. We've had so many that per my calculations we need to go at least a couple of millennia without one in order to restore a semblance of balance.
Everyone else has moved on to electing the best person for the job. Positive discrimination is so last century....
I have just explained (and in quite some forensic detail) why in these special circumstances - the nation's premier progressive political party being alone in never having had a female leader - being a woman is quite validly a part of being the best person for the job! Sometimes wonder why I bother.
But you don't need to explain. The world has moved on around the Labour Party. All the other political parties have done the heavy lifting for you. Yeah, you should have done it forty years ago. But we don't need to hear the whimpering apologies and determination to repair those decades of damage. It all sounds an unhelpful reminder of previous failure..... Just pick a competent non-Marxist to atone.
We don't just have to do badly (likely), we have to do badly while rEU visibly prospers (less likely).
That would be logical but I don't think it's how it works, any more than Gordon Brown was saved by saying "it's a worldwide recession that started in America".
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Interesting. The Lib Dems will clearly become the Rejoin party. They could still surge back, on that basis.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
Labour becoming a rejoin party would be insanity, when they need to win 40% of the electorate and a bunch of pro-leave constituencies. But for the Lib Dems it seems the obvious thing to do, given their primary goal right now is simply to remain relevant, win some new seats, and get around 20% of the vote share. They certainly aren't going to be competitive in seats like Redcar and Burnley again anytime soon, that's for sure.
One bit worth mentioning (as it may surprise people) are the MPs campaigning for their constituency /town to escape / secede from their current council.
It's often the case that any town that isn't the county town in a council area to be given the short straw. The merger of County Durham into one authority has caused resentment everywhere outside Durham City itself.
What's even funnier is that Durham City residents don't want to be associated with the rest of the county even though it's done well out of the deal.
Everywhere should be unitary, the duplication of effort on websites/buildings and generally for two tier authorities is an expense (And carbon emissions) we can not afford in these straitened times. Where I am it should be North Nottinghamshire; Nottingham; South Nottinghamshire.
Totally agree with this. Unitaries are the way to go.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who was a county councillor some time ago, when I was still a conservative party activist. He told me the biggest block to this comes from the voluntary Conservative Party - basically there will be less councillor posts for activists if you cut district councils. When you think about it, it makes absolute logical sense to realign our local government. Most voters have no idea what the difference is, and why we have so many tiers.
Not just that but if you cut district councils you also remove a whole layer of more locally connected government, planning in particular would be covered for the whole county rather than based on more specific needs of the local town and its district.
In Epping for example, we would have a county council serving over a million people and a town council serving 11 000 people and nothing in between if Epping Forest District Council was scrapped
Many unitaries have area planning committees often modelled on old district areas and strategic committees. They might also have more locally focused area committees with delegated powers. It's not an insurmountable problem.
Yet still without the guarantee of local district councillors deciding on planning for their district
You don't just go from district (Which is too small) to County (Where the areas are massive), unitary is an intermediate step and I can tell you city/unitary councillors are very on top of local planning issues !
Some counties are all unitary e.g. Herefordshire and effectively replaced the county council.
Even if that is not the case unitary councils have to cover several of the old district councils
One bit worth mentioning (as it may surprise people) are the MPs campaigning for their constituency /town to escape / secede from their current council.
It's often the case that any town that isn't the county town in a council area to be given the short straw. The merger of County Durham into one authority has caused resentment everywhere outside Durham City itself.
What's even funnier is that Durham City residents don't want to be associated with the rest of the county even though it's done well out of the deal.
Everywhere should be unitary, the duplication of effort on websites/buildings and generally for two tier authorities is an expense (And carbon emissions) we can not afford in these straitened times. Where I am it should be North Nottinghamshire; Nottingham; South Nottinghamshire.
Totally agree with this. Unitaries are the way to go.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who was a county councillor some time ago, when I was still a conservative party activist. He told me the biggest block to this comes from the voluntary Conservative Party - basically there will be less councillor posts for activists if you cut district councils. When you think about it, it makes absolute logical sense to realign our local government. Most voters have no idea what the difference is, and why we have so many tiers.
Not just that but if you cut district councils you also remove a whole layer of more locally connected government, planning in particular would be covered for the whole county rather than based on more specific needs of the local town and its district.
In Epping for example, we would have a county council serving over a million people and a town council serving 11 000 people and nothing in between if Epping Forest District Council was scrapped
Many unitaries have area planning committees often modelled on old district areas and strategic committees. They might also have more locally focused area committees with delegated powers. It's not an insurmountable problem.
Yet still without the guarantee of local district councillors deciding on planning for their district
It s perfectly possible to devolve planning to an area committee comprised of councillors only from that area.
If life in Britain is perceived as getting shitter, the public are unlikely to be swayed much by the fact that life in Wallonia or Westphalia isn't a bed of roses either. They'll be looking to their options.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Interesting. The Lib Dems will clearly become the Rejoin party. They could still surge back, on that basis.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
It’s something Labourites talk about and worry about, but won’t vote about.
The issue at the moment is they haven’t yet worked out a good enough narrative to explain electing Starmer. Once that’s established it will become mantra and the ‘problem’ will go away.
You keep saying this but I am a Labourite and I'm telling you that I desperately want a woman.
Have you tried eHarmony?
Very good. I'm reminded of this deathless piece of diplomatic correspondence from WW2:
H.M. EMBASSY MOSCOW
Lord Pembroke The Foreign Office London
6th April 1943
My Dear Reggie,
In these dark days man tends to look for little shafts of light that spill from Heaven. My days are probably darker than yours, and I need, my God I do, all the light I can get. But I am a decent fellow, and I do not want to be mean and selfish about what little brightness is shed upon me from time to time. So I propose to share with you a tiny flash that has illuminated my sombre life and tell you that God has given me a new Turkish colleague whose card tells me that he is called Mustapha Kunt.
We all feel like that, Reggie, now and then, especially when Spring is upon us, but few of us would care to put it on our cards. It takes a Turk to do that.
(Signed)
Sir Archibald Clerk Kerr, H.M. Ambassador.
Thank you. I am trying and failing to count up the number of lobby groups, single issue fanatics, protesters and fanatics who would find this letter deeply unamusing.
On another subject discussed recently, all local authority problems will be solved magically and instantly by going back to the old county boundaries, including giving Middlesex CCC its county back.
It’s something Labourites talk about and worry about, but won’t vote about.
The issue at the moment is they haven’t yet worked out a good enough narrative to explain electing Starmer. Once that’s established it will become mantra and the ‘problem’ will go away.
You keep saying this but I am a Labourite and I'm telling you that I desperately want a woman.
This does not mean I will discard all of my better judgement in the decision I must ultimately make but it does mean I am influenced by gender.
Everyone else has moved on to electing the best person for the job. Positive discrimination is so last century....
“ I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
Why do modern leftists disagree so much with this statement?
Good point in principle, but there comes a time when continued coincidence between character and skin colour (or gender) starts to look as iffy as the coin tosses in Rosencranz and G Are Dead. Here we have one man and four women, and if someone as boring and colourless as Starmer is getting a walkover you are entitled to ask why.
Because he’s probably the best candidate?
As others have said, from the point of view of a Conservative there will be cheers for RLB or Jess Philips, quiet reservation about the relatively unknown Lisa Nandy, and a thought that Kier Starmer is a genuine competitor.
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
I agree. I do look forward to a much closer trading relationship though. It caused genuine poverty that New Zealand has never fully recovered from when we joined the EU.
Polling indicates a high degree of enthusiasm for freedom of movement between Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand:
Australia has some fairly rigid entry requirements and aren't willing to drop them, so it's irrelevant. However if memory serves New Zealand is easier to get into. Perhaps the CANZUK enthusiasts can go live there for a bit and report whether the reality matches their dreams...
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Interesting. The Lib Dems will clearly become the Rejoin party. They could still surge back, on that basis.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
If life in Britain is perceived as getting shitter, the public are unlikely to be swayed much by the fact that life in Wallonia or Westphalia isn't a bed of roses either. They'll be looking to their options.
Could have been written in 2016 by someone about to be shot down for hinting at a Leave victory
Eek. The climate in Leeds and Manchester is shite. Newcastle, shite but less so. This is a major detriment on quality of life there.
London has a pretty great climate April to October and is a great place to live if you have some money.
I have money - I wouldn't have it if I was paying a mortgage down south.
The £20,000 or so I save a year (generous estimate it probably be higher) does wonders for my pension and holiday choices.
The cost of living is balanced by higher salaries. London has the highest household disposable income of any region in the UK. It's not even that close.
And if you can earn the same salary from anywhere in the UK why would you live in London?
Granted I'm lucky but the current market rate for my skill set in London, Glasgow or anywhere is £100k(plus) + full expenses. If anything rates outside London are higher as the people just don't exist.
@eek Please tell me your skillset. Genuine request
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days ago, in his mind it was only half time and the second half was all to play for and that he was going to do everything possible to frustrate, I mean scrutinise extremely carefully, any trade deal.
Interesting. The Lib Dems will clearly become the Rejoin party. They could still surge back, on that basis.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
I’ve got you down as a hardcore and somewhat embittered Remainer. Sorry if I’m wrong.
Will you campaign for Rejoin? If so, how? Will you accept it, grudgingly, and move on? Will you just give up on politics altogether in despair?
Genuine question. No desire to gloat or goad. How people like you react to Actual Brexit is going to be a crucial political factor
Well, it's a long term disaster. As I have been saying for a very long time, there is a two stage process to be followed. First, Remainers needed to accept that they had lost. That has now happened. Secondly, enough Leavers will need to recognise that not a single one of their confident predictions before the referendum has come true, and the whole thing is a complete disaster. That will take longer.
Polling consistently shows that the public given another chance would have voted Remain. Leavers are banking on the change in status changing the dynamic. That looks like an extremely unsafe assumption to me.
Leavers' determination to grind their opponents' noses into the dust will be their undoing.
And the ongoing culture war is only going to accelerate Britain's downward spiral.
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
I agree. I do look forward to a much closer trading relationship though. It caused genuine poverty that New Zealand has never fully recovered from when we joined the EU.
Polling indicates a high degree of enthusiasm for freedom of movement between Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand:
Australia has some fairly rigid entry requirements and aren't willing to drop them, so it's irrelevant. However if memory serves New Zealand is easier to get into. Perhaps the CANZUK enthusiasts can go live there for a bit and report whether the reality matches their dreams...
Australian immigration rates are far higher than Britain's.
The single most interesting thing that I've learned from the exercise is that @Fishing has far more eyecatching travel destinations than I do.
Dogger Bank? Western Approaches?
Currently Guatemala since you ask.
Nice. Central America and the Caribbean are my least visted parts of the world. Trinidad for a day is the sum total.
Well I've done Panama to Guatemala on this trip and it has been fun. Gave me the time to help Mr Meeks with this thread. Nicaragua and Guatemala have been the best.
In the 90s there used to be a whorehouse in Panama that also had a go-kart track. Mine had blocked jets in the carb.
Horsham has a nice Wimpy in the high street. It serves ice cream sundaes and has the newspapers. I visit Horsham rarely but when I do I make a point of popping in. It'll be gone one day and I will be sad.
(Whitehouse in Panama. Yes, but does it do ice-cream sundaes, huh? Didn't think so... )
One bit worth mentioning (as it may surprise people) are the MPs campaigning for their constituency /town to escape / secede from their current council.
It's often the case that any town that isn't the county town in a council area to be given the short straw. The merger of County Durham into one authority has caused resentment everywhere outside Durham City itself.
What's even funnier is that Durham City residents don't want to be associated with the rest of the county even though it's done well out of the deal.
Everywhere should be unitary, the duplication of effort on websites/buildings and generally for two tier authorities is an expense (And carbon emissions) we can not afford in these straitened times. Where I am it should be North Nottinghamshire; Nottingham; South Nottinghamshire.
Totally agree with this. Unitaries are the way to go.
I discussed this with a friend of mine who was a county councillor some time ago, when I was still a conservative party activist. He told me the biggest block to this comes from the voluntary Conservative Party - basically there will be less councillor posts for activists if you cut district councils. When you think about it, it makes absolute logical sense to realign our local government. Most voters have no idea what the difference is, and why we have so many tiers.
Not just that but if you cut district councils you also remove a whole layer of more locally connected government, planning in particular would be covered for the whole county rather than l was scrapped
Many unitaries have area planning committees often modelled on old district areas and strategic committees. They might also have more locally focused area committees with delegated powers. It's not an insurmountable problem.
Yet still without the guarantee of local district councillors deciding on planning for their district
As has been noted you can make them geographically restricted, so it is local councillors. One issue with area committees which are given planning powers is they can tend to dominate any other powers given to them. So often its comprised of local but due to appointments by groups not as an area committee.
And it never ends anyway. People still complain that a decision in Mere is made by cllrs from Salisbury even though that was how it was under the old district council too. It'll never be completely local. A red herring of a complaint. In fact in districts which dont have localised committees unitaries can end up with more of a focus on localities.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31? a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
Lord Adonis was clear on Sky a couple of days trade deal.
to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
I’ve got you down as a hardcore and somewhat embittered Remainer. Sorry if I’m wrong.
Will you campaign for Rejoin? If so, how? Will you accept it, grudgingly, and move on? Will you just give up on politics altogether in despair?
Genuine question. No desire to gloat or goad. How people like you react to Actual Brexit is going to be a crucial political factor
Well, it's a long term disaster. As I have been saying for a very long time, there is a two stage process to be followed. First, Remainers needed to accept that they had lost. That has now happened. Secondly, enough Leavers will need to recognise that not a single one of their confident predictions before the referendum has come true, and the whole thing is a complete disaster. That will take longer.
Polling consistently shows that the public given another chance would have voted Remain. Leavers are banking on the change in status changing the dynamic. That looks like an extremely unsafe assumption to me.
Leavers' determination to grind their opponents' noses into the dust will be their undoing.
And the ongoing culture war is only going to accelerate Britain's downward spiral.
Thanks for that, sincerely - but I could have written all that myself. It’s what you always say. Do you just cut and paste?!
I was actually asking a different and more interesting (to me) question. How will brexit affect your political perspective and voting behaviour? Will you join the Lib Dems and campaign for bre-entry? Will you slink off to Hungary and lick your wounds and abandon British politics? Perhaps you might push for EFTA status (the best bet for Remainers, to my mind)
You clearly don’t have to answer me, but an answer would be enlightening
I agree. The case for Starmer is that the antidote to Bozo is boring and dull. But I don’t think that will work.
I can't see that Nandy is significantly more "edgy" than Starmer. She's hardly Joan Rivers.
Not that I agree that Starmer is particularly dull. He's plenty stimulating enough for me.
Agreed. It is possible this is an attack line from CCO, that they are desperately trying to get traction with. I don't think he is any duller than most politicians from either side. I think what worries the Tories is that he is sensible, whereas the man they have elected leader, whilst apparently affable, is a first rate pillock, that was only successful at the GE because the abject awfulness of Jeremy Corbyn and John Mcdonnell.
A former German diplomat who worked in the EU’s institutions is under investigation along with two lobbyists on suspicion of spying for the Chinese government.
Starmer is a barrister so should be able to hold Boris to account at PMQs. Trouble is, they said that about Michael Howard yet he barely dented Tony Blair. And if Starmer did lay a glove on Boris, I expect he'd find ever more elaborate reasons not to turn up.
Starmer is soporifically dull. I doubt any voter can stay awake listening to this man. However, there is training and coaching available. It worked for Mrs Thatcher. Until it does, RLB and Nandy beat him for charisma.
I do not see Starmer as the solution, except in the negative sense that electing anyone else will make Starmer the king across the water, which could split the party.
So many people are saying this - Starmer dull - that I have to wonder if there is something wrong with me. I actively and positively like seeing and listening to him. Elegant sentences, nicely modulated voice, complex arguments skillfully distilled. When he's on the TV or the radio I am more than happy to pay attention. OK, so I won't necessarily drop what I'm doing in order to give him my absolute undivided, but I certainly won't turn him off.
I suspect what we have rolling here is a trope. "Starmer dull" gets out there - and it sounds on the surface a reasonable assertion - and people then jump on the bandwagon for all sorts of different reasons. Some to make themselves look knowledgeable, most perhaps simply because it's more comfortable to go with the crowd. Not saying you are doing this - as if! - but I do think that this is essentially what is going on. It does happen a lot. Gerrard and Lampard can't play together. No hangover with vodka. It's always wet in Manchester.
I've not yet checked but I believe about half the Etonian MPs retired (some because they'd been sacked by Boris).
I hope and pray that this is our last Old Etonian PM for a long long time. We've had so many that per my calculations we need to go at least a couple of millennia without one in order to restore a semblance of balance.
Stanley Baldwin made the same complaint about the Etonian dominance, going on to say he wanted six Old Harrovians in his Cabinet.
This analysis shows that Farage massively helped the Tories after all the debate. Got Labour voters but not really Tory ones. I wonder what will happen to those two little guys in 2024? Do they drift back to Labour or, now the break has been made, fully transition to the Brexity conservatives. I wonder whether immigration policy will be the decider.
Thanks for that, sincerely - but I could have written all that myself. It’s what you always say. Do you just cut and paste?!
I was actually asking a different and more interesting (to me) question. How will brexit affect your political perspective and voting behaviour? Will you join the Lib Dems and campaign for bre-entry? Will you slink off to Hungary and lick your wounds and abandon British politics? Perhaps you might push for EFTA status (the best bet for Remainers, to my mind)
You clearly don’t have to answer me, but an answer would be enlightening
I have never been a member of a political party and I have never campaigned for anything. I don't see that changing now (not least because I doubt my support would be helpful).
How will it affect my political outlook? Well, I will never vote Conservative again as long as I live.
As to how others will react, there are too many variables to consider really. Will Northern Ireland effectively now drift into the arms of the Republic of Ireland? Will Scotland go independent? Both seem likely in time - no point remaining colonies of a hostile power, as both have now effectively become.
One likely consequence is that there is likely to be a renewed interest in English devolution. Londoners are going to get fed up very quickly of shelling even larger sums of money out to people who hate everything they stand for.
The extremism demonstrated by Leavers is likely to mean that Remainers continue to press for full EU membership. Why should they aim for half a loaf when their nuttier opponents are buying newspapers that accuse them of sabotaging Big Ben's bongs? They're going to see that as a reason to stick to their principles. And why should they? Leave is the same nihilist destructive force it has always been. No Leaver has set out any remotely plausible positive agenda. Till Leavers find some way of including Remainers, Remainers are going to stay of the same mind.
We don't just have to do badly (likely), we have to do badly while rEU visibly prospers (less likely).
That would be logical but I don't think it's how it works, any more than Gordon Brown was saved by saying "it's a worldwide recession that started in America".
He may have been nearly saved by that, though, who knows? He did much better than he might have done in 2010. And whether the tories are destroyed by brexit failure, and whether we rejoin, are two separate issues.
The thing about rejoin, is timescales. We won't be going back in until Brexit has been seen to fail, rejoining has been seen as the solution to the failure, the Eu has agreed on readmission, a GE has been won on a rejoin manifesto, and further years' worth of negotiations with the eu have taken place. Death or dementia will prevent the majority of current pbers from celebrating reentry.
Returning to the previous thread - there is no way New Zealand will agree a union with the UK. The Kiwis like being at the end of the Earth and they know free movement means a lot more low-skilled Poms arriving. It would also mess up their arrangements with Australia. No doubt tongues were very firmly in cheeks when the suggestion was made. But for anyone who was inclined to take it seriously: don’t.
I agree. I do look forward to a much closer trading relationship though. It caused genuine poverty that New Zealand has never fully recovered from when we joined the EU.
Polling indicates a high degree of enthusiasm for freedom of movement between Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand:
Australia has some fairly rigid entry requirements and aren't willing to drop them, so it's irrelevant. However if memory serves New Zealand is easier to get into. Perhaps the CANZUK enthusiasts can go live there for a bit and report whether the reality matches their dreams...
Australian immigration rates are far higher than Britain's.
Agreed. It is possible this is an attack line from CCO, that they are desperately trying to get traction with. I don't think he is any duller than most politicians from either side. I think what worries the Tories is that he is sensible, whereas the man they have elected leader, whilst apparently affable, is a first rate pillock, that was only successful at the GE because the abject awfulness of Jeremy Corbyn and John Mcdonnell.
A serious person for a serious role could work.
Agree with you on Starmer. The more I cogitate and debate, the more I gravitate towards him. Do not fully agree with you on Johnson though. Yes, a pillock, OMG yes, but IMO politically very savvy and with genuine appeal to blue collars and apoliticals. I think he won the GE more than anybody else lost it.
Starmer is a barrister so should be able to hold Boris to account at PMQs. Trouble is, they said that about Michael Howard yet he barely dented Tony Blair. And if Starmer did lay a glove on Boris, I expect he'd find ever more elaborate reasons not to turn up.
Starmer is soporifically dull. I doubt any voter can stay awake listening to this man. However, there is training and coaching available. It worked for Mrs Thatcher. Until it does, RLB and Nandy beat him for charisma.
I do not see Starmer as the solution, except in the negative sense that electing anyone else will make Starmer the king across the water, which could split the party.
So many people are saying this - Starmer dull - that I have to wonder if there is something wrong with me. I actively and positively like seeing and listening to him. Elegant sentences, nicely modulated voice, complex arguments skillfully distilled. When he's on the TV or the radio I am more than happy to pay attention. OK, so I won't necessarily drop what I'm doing in order to give him my absolute undivided, but I certainly won't turn him off.
I suspect what we have rolling here is a trope. "Starmer dull" gets out there - and it sounds on the surface a reasonable assertion - and people then jump on the bandwagon for all sorts of different reasons. Some to make themselves look knowledgeable, most perhaps simply because it's more comfortable to go with the crowd. Not saying you are doing this - as if! - but I do think that this is essentially what is going on. It does happen a lot. Gerrard and Lampard can't play together. No hangover with vodka. It's always wet in Manchester.
Mr Byronic, I think campaigning for EFTA status at some future juncture might be a good position, and probably the most logical. If Brexit is the disaster Mr Meeks is sure of, and I am fearful of then this is a very likely outcome.
I have always thought Brexit a lose-lose for Britain, though for me it might be a win either way. If, by some miracle, it is actually a success, I am sure my business interests will prosper, and so therefore I hope, for my sake and the sake of my fellow British "subjects" that I have been wrong all a long. If I was right, I will have the fun of seeing wankers like Boris Johnson and all his swivel-eyed supporters and fanbois eventually getting the opprobrium they deserve. Ultimately, assuming Enoch Powell's maxim is correct, we will have the pleasure of seeing Johnson humiliated in some way. For many of us it can't come soon enough. In between time, Mr Meeks and I will have to content ourselves in the knowledge that being in a minority does not necessarily make us wrong!
Starmer is a barrister so should be able to hold Boris to account at PMQs. Trouble is, they said that about Michael Howard yet he barely dented Tony Blair. And if Starmer did lay a glove on Boris, I expect he'd find ever more elaborate reasons not to turn up.
Starmer is soporifically dull. I doubt any voter can stay awake listening to this man. However, there is training and coaching available. It worked for Mrs Thatcher. Until it does, RLB and Nandy beat him for charisma.
I do not see Starmer as the solution, except in the negative sense that electing anyone else will make Starmer the king across the water, which could split the party.
So many people are saying this - Starmer dull - that I have to wonder if there is something wrong with me. I actively and positively like seeing and listening to him. Elegant sentences, nicely modulated voice, complex arguments skillfully distilled. When he's on the TV or the radio I am more than happy to pay attention. OK, so I won't necessarily drop what I'm doing in order to give him my absolute undivided, but I certainly won't turn him off.
I suspect what we have rolling here is a trope. "Starmer dull" gets out there - and it sounds on the surface a reasonable assertion - and people then jump on the bandwagon for all sorts of different reasons. Some to make themselves look knowledgeable, most perhaps simply because it's more comfortable to go with the crowd. Not saying you are doing this - as if! - but I do think that this is essentially what is going on. It does happen a lot. Gerrard and Lampard can't play together. No hangover with vodka. It's always wet in Manchester.
I dont see what's dull about his delivery. Hes just not exciting, he's medium.
Agreed. It is possible this is an attack line from CCO, that they are desperately trying to get traction with. I don't think he is any duller than most politicians from either side. I think what worries the Tories is that he is sensible, whereas the man they have elected leader, whilst apparently affable, is a first rate pillock, that was only successful at the GE because the abject awfulness of Jeremy Corbyn and John Mcdonnell.
A serious person for a serious role could work.
Agree with you on Starmer. The more I cogitate and debate, the more I gravitate towards him. Do not fully agree with you on Johnson though. Yes, a pillock, OMG yes, but IMO politically very savvy and with genuine appeal to blue collars and apoliticals. I think he won the GE more than anybody else lost it.
I think he was very very lucky in his opponent. Blair in his prime would have eviscerated him.
Finally got my Labour membership through. +1 vote for Super Keir.
the Tories will be secretly delighted with you. Not as much as a vote for RLB mind.
I find it incredulous Labour MPs and members are not coalescing around Nandy. She is by far the superior candidate, yet for some reason they want more of the same. If you want a lawyer I'm sure Starmer is great, but he sounds anything but a leader and the problem is it's not like he can assemble a decent team around him. Labour need direction, swagger, ideas and an understanding of why they lost. Keir Starmer is offering the opposite.
Agreed. It is possible this is an attack line from CCO, that they are desperately trying to get traction with. I don't think he is any duller than most politicians from either side. I think what worries the Tories is that he is sensible, whereas the man they have elected leader, whilst apparently affable, is a first rate pillock, that was only successful at the GE because the abject awfulness of Jeremy Corbyn and John Mcdonnell.
A serious person for a serious role could work.
Agree with you on Starmer. The more I cogitate and debate, the more I gravitate towards him. Do not fully agree with you on Johnson though. Yes, a pillock, OMG yes, but IMO politically very savvy and with genuine appeal to blue collars and apoliticals. I think he won the GE more than anybody else lost it.
I think he was very very lucky in his opponent. Blair in his prime would have eviscerated him.
But Blair in his prime was a unique election winning machine. It’s like saying Well this team couldn’t beat Brazil in 1970, or England rugby in 2002, so this team is shit.
Finally got my Labour membership through. +1 vote for Super Keir.
the Tories will be secretly delighted with you. Not as much as a vote for RLB mind.
I find it incredulous Labour MPs and members are not coalescing around Nandy. She is by far the superior candidate, yet for some reason they want more of the same. If you want a lawyer I'm sure Starmer is great, but he sounds anything but a leader and the problem is it's not like he can assemble a decent team around him. Labour need direction, swagger, ideas and an understanding of why they lost. Keir Starmer is offering the opposite.
Well I might change my mind as the contest progresses. I will see how they perform in the hustings.
I disagree with your assessment of KS anyway. He’s competent and can articulate and debate effectively. That’s a million times better than the current state.
We don't just have to do badly (likely), we have to do badly while rEU visibly prospers (less likely).
That would be logical but I don't think it's how it works, any more than Gordon Brown was saved by saying "it's a worldwide recession that started in America".
He may have been nearly saved by that, though, who knows? He did much better than he might have done in 2010. And whether the tories are destroyed by brexit failure, and whether we rejoin, are two separate issues.
The thing about rejoin, is timescales. We won't be going back in until Brexit has been seen to fail, rejoining has been seen as the solution to the failure, the Eu has agreed on readmission, a GE has been won on a rejoin manifesto, and further years' worth of negotiations with the eu have taken place. Death or dementia will prevent the majority of current pbers from celebrating reentry.
If the EU insist on euro membership - and I think they would - then we will never rejoin. It’s off the agenda pretty much forever. We’ve made, and now are about to implement, an epochal decision
Finally got my Labour membership through. +1 vote for Super Keir.
the Tories will be secretly delighted with you. Not as much as a vote for RLB mind.
I find it incredulous Labour MPs and members are not coalescing around Nandy. She is by far the superior candidate, yet for some reason they want more of the same. If you want a lawyer I'm sure Starmer is great, but he sounds anything but a leader and the problem is it's not like he can assemble a decent team around him. Labour need direction, swagger, ideas and an understanding of why they lost. Keir Starmer is offering the opposite.
haha. Yet another right wing Tory trying to pretend Labour should go with Nandy. Starmer v Johnson is far more worrying for the Tories. Trying to pretend otherwise just makes you look silly. We need a strong opposition with a credible PM as an alternative to the clown who currently holds the position.
The victim mentality amongst Leavers never ends does it?
Everything is always someone else’s fault.
Exactly the same can be said of Remainers, and their endless political defeats. It’s always because of Murdoch, or Putin, or the Mail, or big bad Dom, or stupid voters, or Cambridge Analytica, or the fucking weather, its never their own witless, clueless snobbery
Finally got my Labour membership through. +1 vote for Super Keir.
the Tories will be secretly delighted with you. Not as much as a vote for RLB mind.
I find it incredulous Labour MPs and members are not coalescing around Nandy. She is by far the superior candidate, yet for some reason they want more of the same. If you want a lawyer I'm sure Starmer is great, but he sounds anything but a leader and the problem is it's not like he can assemble a decent team around him. Labour need direction, swagger, ideas and an understanding of why they lost. Keir Starmer is offering the opposite.
They are all offering the opposite. Nandy's idea is to offer the opposite in a much nicer tone of voice.
“study for a postgraduate diploma in public sector management at the University of Birmingham”.
However Jess didn’t complete her postgraduate course, dropping out in the final stages and never returning after being elected a councillor – confirmed by both someone on her course at the time, and her office.
Finally got my Labour membership through. +1 vote for Super Keir.
the Tories will be secretly delighted with you. Not as much as a vote for RLB mind.
I find it incredulous Labour MPs and members are not coalescing around Nandy. She is by far the superior candidate, yet for some reason they want more of the same. If you want a lawyer I'm sure Starmer is great, but he sounds anything but a leader and the problem is it's not like he can assemble a decent team around him. Labour need direction, swagger, ideas and an understanding of why they lost. Keir Starmer is offering the opposite.
haha. Yet another right wing Tory trying to pretend Labour should go with Nandy. Starmer v Johnson is far more worrying for the Tories. Trying to pretend otherwise just makes you look silly. We need a strong opposition with a credible PM as an alternative to the clown who currently holds the position.
You've got everything wrong so far Nige and you will again.
If I felt I was worried about Starmer I would say, you do realise this forum isn't being viewed by Labour HQ right? Nandy is not tainted by the Corbyn regime. I'd love to know who the credible PM is because judging by the mess he made of Labour's Brexit policy it isn't Starmer!
Comments
Why do modern leftists disagree so much with this statement?
The Anti-Soros meme was AFAIK started by a Jewish-Americam political analyst to give Orban a bogeyman opponent once he had crushed the socialists under his bootheel. It was only later that it was adopted by anti-semitic types.
Incidentally, talking of Mr Meeks, what do PBers think will happen to the ultra Remainers after January 31?
Seems to be this is the biggest unasked question in British politics. Go on Twitter and it’s obvious a lot of people are still very very unhappy about Brexit, and still seek to reverse it in some way.
How many of them are there? I reckon it’s in the millions. Maybe 5 million at a mad guess? Plus all the EU citizens here. That is a lot of people and if they start to caucus they could be very powerful. With Corbyn gone that’s easier. They can organize against the Tories without worrying they are letting in a Stalinist.
But will they? Or will they slowly accept the inevitable and fade from salience?
It remains one of the most memorable hols I've ever done. We spent the fortnight eagerly looking to spot a sloth, and on the last day rounded a corner en masse and narrowly avoided making one roadkill!
H.M. EMBASSY
MOSCOW
Lord Pembroke
The Foreign Office
London
6th April 1943
My Dear Reggie,
In these dark days man tends to look for little shafts of light that spill from Heaven. My days are probably darker than yours, and I need, my God I do, all the light I can get. But I am a decent fellow, and I do not want to be mean and selfish about what little brightness is shed upon me from time to time. So I propose to share with you a tiny flash that has illuminated my sombre life and tell you that God has given me a new Turkish colleague whose card tells me that he is called Mustapha Kunt.
We all feel like that, Reggie, now and then, especially when Spring is upon us, but few of us would care to put it on our cards. It takes a Turk to do that.
(Signed)
Sir Archibald Clerk Kerr,
H.M. Ambassador.
Starmer is soporifically dull. I doubt any voter can stay awake listening to this man. However, there is training and coaching available. It worked for Mrs Thatcher. Until it does, RLB and Nandy beat him for charisma.
I do not see Starmer as the solution, except in the negative sense that electing anyone else will make Starmer the king across the water, which could split the party.
However I guess the UK (and likewise Australia/NZ) has a lot more overseas students since a lot of people want to spend some time in an English-speaking country, so the British can fill a lot of these jobs just by letting people in to study and letting them work part-time.
The Twitter Remainers are in a fugue state of crazed grief. I genuinely fear for some of them, come January 31. I don’t believe they’re faking it. They’re lost in bewildered anger and anguish. Tho their total failure to understand Brexit is still remarkable, and perhaps adds to and explains their existential pain.
Labour doesn’t do harmony.
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1217580739312738305
Go to their most popular tweets then read the threads beneath. They are a Book of Mad Lamentations. Total psychic meltdown.
Even if that is not the case unitary councils have to cover several of the old district councils
https://twitter.com/stephenatap/status/1217762540496805888
Kate: pictured glefully smiling by headline about a "Remainer stitch-up".
Coincidence?
(Yeah, probably....)
Thank you. I am trying and failing to count up the number of lobby groups, single issue fanatics, protesters and fanatics who would find this letter deeply unamusing.
On another subject discussed recently, all local authority problems will be solved magically and instantly by going back to the old county boundaries, including giving Middlesex CCC its county back.
Ah, my coat.
Not that I agree that Starmer is particularly dull. He's plenty stimulating enough for me.
As others have said, from the point of view of a Conservative there will be cheers for RLB or Jess Philips, quiet reservation about the relatively unknown Lisa Nandy, and a thought that Kier Starmer is a genuine competitor.
Will you campaign for Rejoin? If so, how? Will you accept it, grudgingly, and move on? Will you just give up on politics altogether in despair?
Genuine question. No desire to gloat or goad. How people like you react to Actual Brexit is going to be a crucial political factor
Polling consistently shows that the public given another chance would have voted Remain. Leavers are banking on the change in status changing the dynamic. That looks like an extremely unsafe assumption to me.
Leavers' determination to grind their opponents' noses into the dust will be their undoing.
And the ongoing culture war is only going to accelerate Britain's downward spiral.
(Whitehouse in Panama. Yes, but does it do ice-cream sundaes, huh? Didn't think so...
It's a bit like Hillary's popular vote victory...
And it never ends anyway. People still complain that a decision in Mere is made by cllrs from Salisbury even though that was how it was under the old district council too. It'll never be completely local. A red herring of a complaint. In fact in districts which dont have localised committees unitaries can end up with more of a focus on localities.
I was actually asking a different and more interesting (to me) question. How will brexit affect your political perspective and voting behaviour? Will you join the Lib Dems and campaign for bre-entry? Will you slink off to Hungary and lick your wounds and abandon British politics? Perhaps you might push for EFTA status (the best bet for Remainers, to my mind)
You clearly don’t have to answer me, but an answer would be enlightening
A serious person for a serious role could work.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/16/former-eu-envoy-investigated-over-china-spying-claims
I suspect what we have rolling here is a trope. "Starmer dull" gets out there - and it sounds on the surface a reasonable assertion - and people then jump on the bandwagon for all sorts of different reasons. Some to make themselves look knowledgeable, most perhaps simply because it's more comfortable to go with the crowd. Not saying you are doing this - as if! - but I do think that this is essentially what is going on. It does happen a lot. Gerrard and Lampard can't play together. No hangover with vodka. It's always wet in Manchester.
How will it affect my political outlook? Well, I will never vote Conservative again as long as I live.
As to how others will react, there are too many variables to consider really. Will Northern Ireland effectively now drift into the arms of the Republic of Ireland? Will Scotland go independent? Both seem likely in time - no point remaining colonies of a hostile power, as both have now effectively become.
One likely consequence is that there is likely to be a renewed interest in English devolution. Londoners are going to get fed up very quickly of shelling even larger sums of money out to people who hate everything they stand for.
The extremism demonstrated by Leavers is likely to mean that Remainers continue to press for full EU membership. Why should they aim for half a loaf when their nuttier opponents are buying newspapers that accuse them of sabotaging Big Ben's bongs? They're going to see that as a reason to stick to their principles. And why should they? Leave is the same nihilist destructive force it has always been. No Leaver has set out any remotely plausible positive agenda. Till Leavers find some way of including Remainers, Remainers are going to stay of the same mind.
The thing about rejoin, is timescales. We won't be going back in until Brexit has been seen to fail, rejoining has been seen as the solution to the failure, the Eu has agreed on readmission, a GE has been won on a rejoin manifesto, and further years' worth of negotiations with the eu have taken place. Death or dementia will prevent the majority of current pbers from celebrating reentry.
I have always thought Brexit a lose-lose for Britain, though for me it might be a win either way. If, by some miracle, it is actually a success, I am sure my business interests will prosper, and so therefore I hope, for my sake and the sake of my fellow British "subjects" that I have been wrong all a long. If I was right, I will have the fun of seeing wankers like Boris Johnson and all his swivel-eyed supporters and fanbois eventually getting the opprobrium they deserve. Ultimately, assuming Enoch Powell's maxim is correct, we will have the pleasure of seeing Johnson humiliated in some way. For many of us it can't come soon enough. In between time, Mr Meeks and I will have to content ourselves in the knowledge that being in a minority does not necessarily make us wrong!
They kept crashing on my phone too. Too big for the memory I think.
Everything is always someone else’s fault.
I find it incredulous Labour MPs and members are not coalescing around Nandy. She is by far the superior candidate, yet for some reason they want more of the same. If you want a lawyer I'm sure Starmer is great, but he sounds anything but a leader and the problem is it's not like he can assemble a decent team around him. Labour need direction, swagger, ideas and an understanding of why they lost. Keir Starmer is offering the opposite.
Doesn’t follow
I disagree with your assessment of KS anyway. He’s competent and can articulate and debate effectively. That’s a million times better than the current state.
Nandy is a hell of a risk.
“study for a postgraduate diploma in public sector management at the University of Birmingham”.
However Jess didn’t complete her postgraduate course, dropping out in the final stages and never returning after being elected a councillor – confirmed by both someone on her course at the time, and her office.
https://order-order.com/2020/01/16/jess-speaking-truth-cv/
If I felt I was worried about Starmer I would say, you do realise this forum isn't being viewed by Labour HQ right? Nandy is not tainted by the Corbyn regime. I'd love to know who the credible PM is because judging by the mess he made of Labour's Brexit policy it isn't Starmer!