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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB leadership fight latest: Angela Rayner says she’ll back RL

SystemSystem Posts: 11,818
edited December 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB leadership fight latest: Angela Rayner says she’ll back RLB

Angela Rayner ‘will endorse’ Long Bailey for Labour leadership https://t.co/uwSUTMhypn

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    RLB = Jo Swinson Mk 2
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,769

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Cummings is correct here - better to give Manchester University and others cash beefing up their research departments rather than try and create something new.
    Agree, if the university is prepared to embrace the new mission and identity thay would make it the MIT of the UK, rather than just Manchester uni rolling in cash.
    Yeah, there had better be very tight spending guidelines attached to the money. If they don’t just want to see it disappear into the blob. If they’re going to be like MIT, they’ll also be funding a lot of scholarships for the most able in STEM subjects.
    Strong rumours of a massive uptick in the number of places for nurses and doctors at Uni. Think - multiple birds with a single stone.
    Haven't nursing courses been generally undersubscribed, causing them to close?

    In other words, lack of places is not the fundamental problem.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Cummings is correct here - better to give Manchester University and others cash beefing up their research departments rather than try and create something new.
    Agree, if the university is prepared to embrace the new mission and identity thay would make it the MIT of the UK, rather than just Manchester uni rolling in cash.
    Yeah, there had better be very tight spending guidelines attached to the money. If they don’t just want to see it disappear into the blob. If they’re going to be like MIT, they’ll also be funding a lot of scholarships for the most able in STEM subjects.
    Strong rumours of a massive uptick in the number of places for nurses and doctors at Uni. Think - multiple birds with a single stone.
    Haven't nursing courses been generally undersubscribed, causing them to close?

    In other words, lack of places is not the fundamental problem.
    Proper degrees - no.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2019
    Scroll through old PB headers and there are many ‘xxxxx moves to shortest price yet on Betfair’ for some leadership or other (xxxxx being a failed leadership candidate). I have to hope Starmer joins the list 🙈
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    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    isam said:

    Scroll through old PB headers and there are many ‘xxxxx moves to shortest price yet on Betfair’ for some leadership or other (xxxxx being a failed leadership candidate). I have to hope Starmer joins the list 🙈

    It looks like a stitch-up for RLB to me.

    Also, why is PB so fucking small? I can't read the type
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I’m sure you’re qualified to make that statement?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628
    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    Hmmmm. You have a job that involves a great deal of theoretical knowledge. That must be understood at a academic level. You can teach all of it on the job - but it is more efficient to the pure academic work in classrooms...

    Call it a Nursing Apprenticeship if that floats your boat.

    This is where things get interesting - there is a big demand for jobs of this kind, part academic, part hands on.

    Think of a tech who works with MRI machines in industry/research (a big area outside the medical use) - you want someone who speaks UNIX, can setup and leak test plumbing, understands magnetic fields, can deal with liquid helium and nitrogen without issues. Such as death.... What you want is a kind of plumber/electrician/lab tech/comp sci hybrid.

    Or someone to really work a multi axis mill - coder, expert manual machinist (you need to learn manual lathe and mill work first), understand optimisation and now AI tools (big money in optimising the tool path to speed up work and improve quality)...
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688
    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
  • Options
    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    What does it being a ‘degree’ have to do with anything?

    Nurses have to have vast medical knowledge. Why shouldn't a part of it be academic?

    The problem is not that its a degree or tuition fees. The problem is lack of bursaries. That’s the reason for the shortage.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628
    edited December 2019
    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    You might want the person giving your child an injection to actually understand what he/she is doing. Might even catch mistakes that way.

    I certainly do.

    A big problem in the Good Olde Days was the system of very learned professionals (few in number) dictating rote work to a mass of semi trained underlings.

    You could argue that https://news.bournemouth.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/HMS-Invincibles-centre-magazines-explode-IMW-SP2468.jpg was a product of that system.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    Not any more, you can now qualify on the job via the nursing associate route
  • Options

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I’m sure you’re qualified to make that statement?
    I know plenty of nurses who would agree.
  • Options

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    Not any more, you can now qualify on the job via the nursing associate route
    The literature on this is not clear on how one would progress from a ‘nursing associate’ to a ‘nurse’. Just screams ‘lower pay scale’.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    edited December 2019
    Long Bailey leader and Rayner Deputy seems to be Labour's Dream ticket, Lavery may apparently only run to make Long Bailey seem more moderate

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/30/labour-moderates-fear-party-chairman-ian-lavery-preparing-run/
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    Well, if they teach them some basic philosophical reasoning, perhaps recent comedies demented mis-carriages of justice might not occur.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I’m sure you’re qualified to make that statement?
    I know plenty of nurses who would agree.
    A degree is simply a bit of paper that says you meet a required standard. A nursing degree is full of on the job training. You just have weird anti-snobbery of the educated.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Cor Blimey Guvnor, she’s right awfentik, one of us

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1211023292238303234?s=21
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    Not any more, you can now qualify on the job via the nursing associate route
    The literature on this is not clear on how one would progress from a ‘nursing associate’ to a ‘nurse’. Just screams ‘lower pay scale’.
    You can do a nursing degree apprenticeship that does not require full time university study
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    edited December 2019
    Trump and Obama tied as the most admired man in America, 41% of Democrats picked Obama to 2% for Trump, 45% of Republicans picked Trump to 3% for Obama.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/273125/obama-trump-tie-admired-man-2019.aspx
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    Not any more, you can now qualify on the job via the nursing associate route
    The literature on this is not clear on how one would progress from a ‘nursing associate’ to a ‘nurse’. Just screams ‘lower pay scale’.
    You can do a nursing degree apprenticeship that does not require full time university study
    Who said anything about full time university study?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,116
    edited December 2019
    Nursing used to be an attractive career choice for girls who had ambitions that went further than being a shop assistant. They could also start earning straight away. Now girls expect to compete equally with boys and if you are funding a degree you might as well go for something higher paid, including being a medical doctor.

    I don't think nursing has really kept up with demographic and professional changes. Given nurses take more responsibility than they used to for the clinical management of patients, a degree does seem essential. The profession probably needs higher status and higher pay.
  • Options
    Rayner not standing is good news for Starmer as it gives him a shot. Lavery running would be even better for him.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210

    Rayner not standing is good news for Starmer as it gives him a shot. Lavery running would be even better for him.

    It makes little difference as it is preferential voting not FPTP
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    What does it being a ‘degree’ have to do with anything?

    Nurses have to have vast medical knowledge. Why shouldn't a part of it be academic?

    The problem is not that its a degree or tuition fees. The problem is lack of bursaries. That’s the reason for the shortage.
    The problem (grits teeth) is the one I mentioned: that it disqualifies middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications and who have already gathered the basics of nursing (dosages, delivery methods, clean up the sick, clean up the blood, clean up the shit, pick up heavy objects, comfort the afflicted, do not panic at screams) and do not have the time to acquire academic knowledge of limited application, and thus prevent them from entering a profession in which they are solely needed and eminently qualified.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,965

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    I'm pretty sceptical about any critical thinking skills learned as part of a degree. I didn't feel any cleverer at 21 than 18. That's not to say you couldn't learn something during that time - but in my experience, which, admittedly, is a couole of decades out of date, there isn't much taught. In many cases, a degree is largely a certificate to say you're one of the subset of people who could get a degree, rather than any value actually added to the individual.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,365
    isam said:

    Cor Blimey Guvnor, she’s right awfentik, one of us

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1211023292238303234?s=21

    Not sure why you’re mocking this
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    What does it being a ‘degree’ have to do with anything?

    Nurses have to have vast medical knowledge. Why shouldn't a part of it be academic?

    The problem is not that its a degree or tuition fees. The problem is lack of bursaries. That’s the reason for the shortage.
    The problem (grits teeth) is the one I mentioned: that it disqualifies middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications and who have already gathered the basics of nursing (dosages, delivery methods, clean up the sick, clean up the blood, clean up the shit, pick up heavy objects, comfort the afflicted, do not panic at screams) and do not have the time to acquire academic knowledge of limited application, and thus prevent them from entering a profession in which they are solely needed and eminently qualified.
    But healthcare assistants do most of those things these days. Not nurses.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,116
    edited December 2019
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    What does it being a ‘degree’ have to do with anything?

    Nurses have to have vast medical knowledge. Why shouldn't a part of it be academic?

    The problem is not that its a degree or tuition fees. The problem is lack of bursaries. That’s the reason for the shortage.
    The problem (grits teeth) is the one I mentioned: that it disqualifies middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications and who have already gathered the basics of nursing (dosages, delivery methods, clean up the sick, clean up the blood, clean up the shit, pick up heavy objects, comfort the afflicted, do not panic at screams) and do not have the time to acquire academic knowledge of limited application, and thus prevent them from entering a profession in which they are solely needed and eminently qualified.
    Isn't that the job description of a healthcare assistant, and not a registered nurse? Nurses would be making decisions on medication and on-going treatments, I think.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,384
    edited December 2019
    Cookie said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    I'm pretty sceptical about any critical thinking skills learned as part of a degree. I didn't feel any cleverer at 21 than 18. That's not to say you couldn't learn something during that time - but in my experience, which, admittedly, is a couole of decades out of date, there isn't much taught. In many cases, a degree is largely a certificate to say you're one of the subset of people who could get a degree, rather than any value actually added to the individual.
    This was definitely truer before c9k fees, and before the addition of two billion workers to the global capitalist economy who work cheap. Life as a British person is not as basically easy as it used to be.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Cor Blimey Guvnor, she’s right awfentik, one of us

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1211023292238303234?s=21

    Not sure why you’re mocking this
    You can be 100% sure it’s because she piles on the ‘I’m common as muck, me - couldn’t afford Reebok classics & went to a school wiv no posh kids’ schtick when she’s nothing of the sort
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688
    edited December 2019

    ...the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree....

    It is neither necessary nor sufficient to have a degree to learn critical thinking.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,463
    Byronic said:

    isam said:

    Scroll through old PB headers and there are many ‘xxxxx moves to shortest price yet on Betfair’ for some leadership or other (xxxxx being a failed leadership candidate). I have to hope Starmer joins the list 🙈

    It looks like a stitch-up for RLB to me.

    Also, why is PB so fucking small? I can't read the type
    Pb is big! It’s your perceptions that got small...

  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Rayner not standing is good news for Starmer as it gives him a shot. Lavery running would be even better for him.

    It makes little difference as it is preferential voting not FPTP

    Because of the nomination process, the far left is almost certainly only going to get one candidate, so transfers are not going to be much of a factor. Starmer would slaughter Lavery.

  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    viewcode said:

    ...the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree....

    It is neither necessary nor sufficient to have a degree to learn critical thinking.
    What’s the alternative?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688
    isam said:

    Cor Blimey Guvnor, she’s right awfentik, one of us

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1211023292238303234?s=21

    Didn't your mum do the catalogues? Mine did Kays and Grattans. There was two a year, one for spring/summer and the other for autumn/winter. The later was brilliant because it had the toys in it in the back pages. You missed out.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,965
    EPG said:

    Cookie said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    I'm pretty sceptical about any critical thinking skills learned as part of a degree. I didn't feel any cleverer at 21 than 18. That's not to say you couldn't learn something during that time - but in my experience, which, admittedly, is a couole of decades out of date, there isn't much taught. In many cases, a degree is largely a certificate to say you're one of the subset of people who could get a degree, rather than any value actually added to the individual.
    This was definitely truer before c9k fees, and before the addition of two billion workers to the global capitalist economy who work cheap. Life as a British person is not as basically easy as it used to be.
    So nowadays a degree actually adds a bit of value? Good.
    Actually, I did a (vocational) masters a decade after my (generic) first degree. I learned more, and more value was added, in that one year, than in the three years of my first degree. I put that largely down to it being vocational. But I did consider the introduction of fees (£3,000, in those days) might not be wholly irrelevant.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Cor Blimey Guvnor, she’s right awfentik, one of us

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1211023292238303234?s=21

    Didn't your mum do the catalogues? Mine did Kays and Grattans. There was two a year, one for spring/summer and the other for autumn/winter. The later was brilliant because it had the toys in it in the back pages. You missed out.
    She did, Freeman’s & Peter Craig
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    Cookie said:

    So nowadays a degree actually adds a bit of value? Good.
    Actually, I did a (vocational) masters a decade after my (generic) first degree. I learned more, and more value was added, in that one year, than in the three years of my first degree. I put that largely down to it being vocational. But I did consider the introduction of fees (£3,000, in those days) might not be wholly irrelevant.

    You being older and more mature probably played a significant part.

    That’s certainly true for me.
  • Options
    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Cor Blimey Guvnor, she’s right awfentik, one of us

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1211023292238303234?s=21

    Didn't your mum do the catalogues? Mine did Kays and Grattans. There was two a year, one for spring/summer and the other for autumn/winter. The later was brilliant because it had the toys in it in the back pages. You missed out.
    My favourite was the bit where they advertised showers. And lingerie
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628

    viewcode said:

    ...the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree....

    It is neither necessary nor sufficient to have a degree to learn critical thinking.
    What’s the alternative?
    An issue is the non-teaching of critical thinking. I once caused a problem on a course I was taking by asking what the presenter characterised as "dangerous" questions.
  • Options

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688
    Byronic said:

    viewcode said:

    isam said:

    Cor Blimey Guvnor, she’s right awfentik, one of us

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1211023292238303234?s=21

    Didn't your mum do the catalogues? Mine did Kays and Grattans. There was two a year, one for spring/summer and the other for autumn/winter. The later was brilliant because it had the toys in it in the back pages. You missed out.
    My favourite was the bit where they advertised showers. And lingerie
    I was trying not to mention that bit.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,965

    Cookie said:

    So nowadays a degree actually adds a bit of value? Good.
    Actually, I did a (vocational) masters a decade after my (generic) first degree. I learned more, and more value was added, in that one year, than in the three years of my first degree. I put that largely down to it being vocational. But I did consider the introduction of fees (£3,000, in those days) might not be wholly irrelevant.

    You being older and more mature probably played a significant part.

    That’s certainly true for me.
    That is also true. I have a riff I often trot out on the subject of "You shouldn't be going to university unless you're sure of the reason why." Again, maybe eye-watering fees have put that into perspective a bit nowadays.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,555
    edited December 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Long Bailey leader and Rayner Deputy seems to be Labour's Dream ticket, Lavery may apparently only run to make Long Bailey seem more moderate

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/30/labour-moderates-fear-party-chairman-ian-lavery-preparing-run/

    It would work. Presumably it would also make her seem less dodgy - not that I am aware that is a problem she might face, but Lavery seems an ideal candidate (or mooted candidate) to make any number of other candidates look better in all sorts of ways. Pity Williamson is not in the party to hint he might run, as him then not doing so would make every other candidate then look a billion times more reasonable.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.

    “Not interested in further academic study” well tough shit.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,555
    edited December 2019

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.
    I think there were probably more than a few signs that we do in fairness. Always take the easier path, that's our motto. And we reward it too.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688
    edited December 2019
    FF43 said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    A-bloody-men. Nursing used to be a classic escape route for middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications. Now, for reasons known only to God, you need a degree.
    What does it being a ‘degree’ have to do with anything?

    Nurses have to have vast medical knowledge. Why shouldn't a part of it be academic?

    The problem is not that its a degree or tuition fees. The problem is lack of bursaries. That’s the reason for the shortage.
    The problem (grits teeth) is the one I mentioned: that it disqualifies middle-aged women with teenage children and no qualifications and who have already gathered the basics of nursing (dosages, delivery methods, clean up the sick, clean up the blood, clean up the shit, pick up heavy objects, comfort the afflicted, do not panic at screams) and do not have the time to acquire academic knowledge of limited application, and thus prevent them from entering a profession in which they are solely needed and eminently qualified.
    Isn't that the job description of a healthcare assistant, and not a registered nurse? Nurses would be making decisions on medication and on-going treatments, I think.
    I think you're right, but I'm not sure it's an improvement. IIUC these days the roles are strictly demarcated and moving from one to the other is difficult. This is presumably why we now have the intermediary role of "nursing associate" between "healthcare assistant/nursing assistant" and "nurse".
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.

    “Not interested in further academic study” well tough shit.
    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628
    kle4 said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.
    I think there were probably more than a few signs that we do in fairness. Always take the easier path, that's our motto. And we reward it too.
    5 minutes conversation with some experts in government service will leave you quite sure that lazy self-belief is well rewarded.

    If you don't believe I am correct I have some .5 calibre ammunition to sell you. No actual good for fighting with - but purchased with world class process and documentation.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    viewcode said:

    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.

    @Richard_Tyndall suggested that certain jobs shouldn’t have a requirement of a degree (or equivalent) because some people can’t be bothered to meet the entry requirements.

    That’s it. Anyone can get a degree (or equivalent) if they want to. Policy changes are just needed to make this more accessible.

    The anti-snobbery towards the concept of a “degree” is insane. Its dangerously close to anti-intellectualism.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    There is a certain fetishization in British society of ‘leaving school at 15 with no qualifications’ and succeeding which is great. But not something that should be encouraged.

    Education is good. To suggest otherwise is insane.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,184

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.

    “Not interested in further academic study” well tough shit.
    If they're entering the workforce, how's it any lazier than doing a bullshit degree and spending half your time on the piss for three years. You are absolutely dire in this debate, you went awry early and now you're just digging.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.

    “Not interested in further academic study” well tough shit.
    If they're entering the workforce, how's it any lazier than doing a bullshit degree and spending half your time on the piss for three years. You are absolutely dire in this debate, you went awry early and now you're just digging.
    If the entry requirements are a degree then they should be met. To lower them because some people can’t be arsed is ridiculous.

    Are the police struggling to fill vacancies because of this?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628

    viewcode said:

    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.

    @Richard_Tyndall suggested that certain jobs shouldn’t have a requirement of a degree (or equivalent) because some people can’t be bothered to meet the entry requirements.

    That’s it. Anyone can get a degree (or equivalent) if they want to. Policy changes are just needed to make this more accessible.

    The anti-snobbery towards the concept of a “degree” is insane. Its dangerously close to anti-intellectualism.
    The problem is that many degrees are the reverse of anything useful.

    Critical thinking is not taught because it is "difficult" or "problematic". I enjoyed the moment that a very progressive regressive lecturer told me that Thomas Mann (who I had quoted - and he had no idea what I had quoted) was trash that should be..... burned. Ha.

    Ironically, many of the lower end degrees now taught are barren "fact piles", thrown at the students and badly regurgitated in the exams. There was more thinking on the welding course I did recently.
  • Options

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.

    “Not interested in further academic study” well tough shit.
    If they're entering the workforce, how's it any lazier than doing a bullshit degree and spending half your time on the piss for three years. You are absolutely dire in this debate, you went awry early and now you're just digging.
    Curious that the people who are so supportive of unrestricted unskilled immigration also demand degrees for ever more careers.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    viewcode said:

    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.

    @Richard_Tyndall suggested that certain jobs shouldn’t have a requirement of a degree (or equivalent) because some people can’t be bothered to meet the entry requirements.

    That’s it. Anyone can get a degree (or equivalent) if they want to. Policy changes are just needed to make this more accessible.

    The anti-snobbery towards the concept of a “degree” is insane. Its dangerously close to anti-intellectualism.
    The problem is that many degrees are the reverse of anything useful.

    Critical thinking is not taught because it is "difficult" or "problematic". I enjoyed the moment that a very progressive regressive lecturer told me that Thomas Mann (who I had quoted - and he had no idea what I had quoted) was trash that should be..... burned. Ha.

    Ironically, many of the lower end degrees now taught are barren "fact piles", thrown at the students and badly regurgitated in the exams. There was more thinking on the welding course I did recently.
    But you’re criticizing the quality of the ‘higher education’, not the concept in itself.

    My point was that the requirement for some degree of higher education as a requirement for training as a police officer or a nurse is not a bad thing.

    We should not encourage the lowering of standards because people have an irrational hatred of university students or ‘intellectuals’.
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    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.

    “Not interested in further academic study” well tough shit.
    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.
    People should always be encouraged to develop their own skillsets and maximise their potential.

    Further academic study can be one method to do so but it should never become the only or the exclusive method.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.

    “Not interested in further academic study” well tough shit.
    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.
    People should always be encouraged to develop their own skillsets and maximise their potential.

    Further academic study can be one method to do so but it should never become the only or the exclusive method.
    I don’t disagree with this at all.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628
    WTAF

    I think we have a new winner for the "Prize of Returning to the Public Eye in the most dementedly self harming manner conceivable"
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    Do you really follow Jonathan King on twitter ???
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688

    viewcode said:

    Awb682 said:

    Nurses should not need a degree.

    I found out today from a colleague wishing to transfer between armed response units of different police regions that Nottinghamshire Police now require new recruits to have a degree.
    Yeah. Down on education. Who wants our police force to be well educated anyway?
    So all our previous police have been uneducated?

    Get a fucking life you idiot. Some jobs require degrees and most do not.
    I didn’t say that at all. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve the education level of people in these roles.
    There is if it means excluding those who are not academically minded but may be brilliant at the practical job at hand. Policing does not require a degree. It requires a set of practical and interpersonal skills that can best be learnt whilst actually training for and doing the job. The same goes for a vast range of other jobs. This obsession with educational qualifications is pointless and counter productive. It also serves to make third class citizens of those many people who are not educationally minded.
    I’m sorry but in my opinion a police officer should have the kind of critical thinking skills one learns as part of a degree.

    I’m a firm believer that anyone can succeed academically in something they enjoy and are passionate about.
    One can learn those skills perfectly well without doing a degree. It is pointless and simply acts to close off a viable career route for many who are not interested in further academic study. The obsession with academic qualifications in this country is both a huge waste of time and also responsible for an increase in social inequality as it impacts adversely on many who would otherwise be able to pursue worthwhile and rewarding careers.
    Oh I didn’t realise we rewarded the lazy in this country.

    “Not interested in further academic study” well tough shit.
    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.
    People should always be encouraged to develop their own skillsets and maximise their potential.

    Further academic study can be one method to do so but it should never become the only or the exclusive method.
    Agreed. There should be more than one tool in the toolbox.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    viewcode said:

    People should always be encouraged to develop their own skillsets and maximise their potential.

    Further academic study can be one method to do so but it should never become the only or the exclusive method.

    Agreed. There should be more than one tool in the toolbox.
    My understanding of a nursing degree is that it’s very similar to an apprenticeship but with academic study thrown in.

    People just see the word “degree” and start frothing about “the good old days”.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688

    WTAF

    I think we have a new winner for the "Prize of Returning to the Public Eye in the most dementedly self harming manner conceivable"
    "Hey Agent!"
    "Yes, Kingster?"
    "I want to tweet about accusations of sexual crimes"
    "Now Jon, we talked about this..."
    "But I have a valuable perspective to bring to this!!"
    "That's...the problem"
    "But I sang Everyone's Gone to the Moon!!!"
    "Yes, but...that's not what you're known for, now is it..."
  • Options
    Give my head peace is now on BBC iPlayer, it's a Northern Irish comedy which is very funny.
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    theProletheProle Posts: 979



    @Richard_Tyndall suggested that certain jobs shouldn’t have a requirement of a degree (or equivalent) because some people can’t be bothered to meet the entry requirements.

    That’s it. Anyone can get a degree (or equivalent) if they want to. Policy changes are just needed to make this more accessible.

    The anti-snobbery towards the concept of a “degree” is insane. Its dangerously close to anti-intellectualism.

    The problem is that many degrees are the reverse of anything useful.

    Critical thinking is not taught because it is "difficult" or "problematic". I enjoyed the moment that a very progressive regressive lecturer told me that Thomas Mann (who I had quoted - and he had no idea what I had quoted) was trash that should be..... burned. Ha.

    Ironically, many of the lower end degrees now taught are barren "fact piles", thrown at the students and badly regurgitated in the exams. There was more thinking on the welding course I did recently.
    But you’re criticizing the quality of the ‘higher education’, not the concept in itself.

    My point was that the requirement for some degree of higher education as a requirement for training as a police officer or a nurse is not a bad thing.

    We should not encourage the lowering of standards because people have an irrational hatred of university students or ‘intellectuals’.
    I'm currently doing a degree level job, without a degree, but with some considerable success, because I'm reasonably sharp and had 10 years of seeing the relevant bits of the world from the business end before landing my current role. My predecessor had a good degree, but was useless as his degree had totally failed to prepare him for the real world, and he didn't have the ability to listen to those who did know what they were talking about.

    I deal with a lot of graduate engineers, most of them might as well have skipped uni and entered the real world after doing A levels - all their degree has given them is a sense of expertise that is unfortunately unmatched by their actual abilities.

    All this goes back to Blair, and his stupid idea that 50% of young people should go to uni. It's resulted in a massive collapse in university standards, wasted what could be three of the most productive years of many young people's lives, saddled a whole generation with debt, and is now destroying opportunities for those who don't go to university because employers are expecting degrees as standard.

    The problem is that putting this gene back in its bottle (by reducing uni places, or restricting funding to those who academically merit it) will cause lots of very public hissing and screeching, so no government is going to hurry to resolve the issue.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,628

    viewcode said:

    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.

    @Richard_Tyndall suggested that certain jobs shouldn’t have a requirement of a degree (or equivalent) because some people can’t be bothered to meet the entry requirements.

    That’s it. Anyone can get a degree (or equivalent) if they want to. Policy changes are just needed to make this more accessible.

    The anti-snobbery towards the concept of a “degree” is insane. Its dangerously close to anti-intellectualism.
    The problem is that many degrees are the reverse of anything useful.

    Critical thinking is not taught because it is "difficult" or "problematic". I enjoyed the moment that a very progressive regressive lecturer told me that Thomas Mann (who I had quoted - and he had no idea what I had quoted) was trash that should be..... burned. Ha.

    Ironically, many of the lower end degrees now taught are barren "fact piles", thrown at the students and badly regurgitated in the exams. There was more thinking on the welding course I did recently.
    But you’re criticizing the quality of the ‘higher education’, not the concept in itself.

    My point was that the requirement for some degree of higher education as a requirement for training as a police officer or a nurse is not a bad thing.

    We should not encourage the lowering of standards because people have an irrational hatred of university students or ‘intellectuals’.
    We are all arguing about the same thing, actually (I think)...

    The anti-degree group are arguing that the "must have a degree - even a degree in Stupidity from Baldrick Polytechnic" concept is rubbish.

    I (and I believe yourself) are arguing that a "degree" would be good - if it teaches useful things.

    Impractical bullshit is not intellectualism. Standards for degrees at the second rate universities are set to get passes.

    Not long ago I interviewed a third year graduate in technology. Who had no concept of anything in technology - his final year project was a piece of rubbish that any hobbyist could have put together on a wet afternoon. He literally had no programming skills in the language he had written the software for this in - he must of copy and pasted from some websites. Quite literally, my next door neighbours 14 year old knows more and better than this one did. As for critical thinking skills....
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    @theProle I appreciate your input and you make valid points.

    My only criticism is that you’re judging the quality of a degree on the ability at the end of it to do a specific job.

    I assume you’re talking about software engineering?
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206

    viewcode said:

    What is wrong with you? "Lazy" is not a synonym for "not academic". Some people are just not good at academic study, it doesn't make you lazy nor stupid.

    @Richard_Tyndall suggested that certain jobs shouldn’t have a requirement of a degree (or equivalent) because some people can’t be bothered to meet the entry requirements.

    That’s it. Anyone can get a degree (or equivalent) if they want to. Policy changes are just needed to make this more accessible.

    The anti-snobbery towards the concept of a “degree” is insane. Its dangerously close to anti-intellectualism.
    The problem is that many degrees are the reverse of anything useful.

    Critical thinking is not taught because it is "difficult" or "problematic". I enjoyed the moment that a very progressive regressive lecturer told me that Thomas Mann (who I had quoted - and he had no idea what I had quoted) was trash that should be..... burned. Ha.

    Ironically, many of the lower end degrees now taught are barren "fact piles", thrown at the students and badly regurgitated in the exams. There was more thinking on the welding course I did recently.
    But you’re criticizing the quality of the ‘higher education’, not the concept in itself.

    My point was that the requirement for some degree of higher education as a requirement for training as a police officer or a nurse is not a bad thing.

    We should not encourage the lowering of standards because people have an irrational hatred of university students or ‘intellectuals’.
    We are all arguing about the same thing, actually (I think)...

    The anti-degree group are arguing that the "must have a degree - even a degree in Stupidity from Baldrick Polytechnic" concept is rubbish.

    I (and I believe yourself) are arguing that a "degree" would be good - if it teaches useful things.

    Impractical bullshit is not intellectualism. Standards for degrees at the second rate universities are set to get passes.

    Not long ago I interviewed a third year graduate in technology. Who had no concept of anything in technology - his final year project was a piece of rubbish that any hobbyist could have put together on a wet afternoon. He literally had no programming skills in the language he had written the software for this in - he must of copy and pasted from some websites. Quite literally, my next door neighbours 14 year old knows more and better than this one did. As for critical thinking skills....
    I think we are in agreement yes.

    These arguments however do not apply to nursing as I understand nursing degrees are essentially tailored to exactly what the NHS wants.

    You do a nursing degree and you pass, there would be no disputing your ability to do the job.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,240

    @theProle I appreciate your input and you make valid points.

    My only criticism is that you’re judging the quality of a degree on the ability at the end of it to do a specific job.

    I assume you’re talking about software engineering?

    ?! Lol I'd assume mechanical engineering if someone just says "engineering". Civil at a pinch.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    edited December 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    @theProle I appreciate your input and you make valid points.

    My only criticism is that you’re judging the quality of a degree on the ability at the end of it to do a specific job.

    I assume you’re talking about software engineering?

    ?! Lol I'd assume mechanical engineering if someone just says "engineering". Civil at a pinch.
    I only assumed that because a mechanical engineering degree (for example) is so broad it would be unrealistic to assume someone could do a ‘job in industry’ straight away.

    I worked in Oil and Gas after my Mech Eng degree and the most valuable skill I applied from my degree to the job was being able to teach myself the concepts that was needed to do that specific job.
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    theProletheProle Posts: 979
    edited December 2019

    @theProle I appreciate your input and you make valid points.

    My only criticism is that you’re judging the quality of a degree on the ability at the end of it to do a specific job.

    I assume you’re talking about software engineering?

    No, real engineering. I'm in a role that's a mixture of design engineer, and project manager for a manufacturer of specialist pressure vessels (mainly). SME so it's the sort of place where I have to do a bit of everything from 3D Cad to client meetings, to safely factor calcs for CE marking to workshop staff line manager.

    At the end of the day, if we send someone for three years and thousands of pounds of specialist training, I'd feel happier about it if they could actually do something useful at the far end of it. My critical thinking skills suggest when that's not happening it's time to think again.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,206
    theProle said:

    @theProle I appreciate your input and you make valid points.

    My only criticism is that you’re judging the quality of a degree on the ability at the end of it to do a specific job.

    I assume you’re talking about software engineering?

    No, real engineering. I'm in a role that's a mixture of design engineer, and project manager for a manufacturer of specialist pressure vessels (mainly). SME so it's the sort of place where I have to do a bit of everything from 3D Cad to client meetings, to safely factor calcs for CE marking to workshop staff line manager...
    So the same area I used to work in. Yeah my Mechanical Engineering degree did not teach much that was relevant.

    It did teach me how to learn though.
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    MJWMJW Posts: 1,527
    The Labour Party really don't know how fucked they are, and how abysmal their offerings out are. It's like watching a crap string quartet who have snapped half their strings try and play on the deck of the Titanic.
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    Byronic said:

    isam said:

    Scroll through old PB headers and there are many ‘xxxxx moves to shortest price yet on Betfair’ for some leadership or other (xxxxx being a failed leadership candidate). I have to hope Starmer joins the list 🙈

    It looks like a stitch-up for RLB to me.

    Also, why is PB so fucking small? I can't read the type
    You can expand the text in your browser (control + mouse scrollwheel, or from option at top of browser) but the underlying problem seems to be that about a third of the space is wasted on green bars down the side. I wonder if @rcs1000 inadvertently turned on some sort of default to mobile device option when he was playing with https, Wordpress and Vanilla over the weekend.
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    MJW said:

    The Labour Party really don't know how fucked they are, and how abysmal their offerings out are. It's like watching a crap string quartet who have snapped half their strings try and play on the deck of the Titanic.

    It is equally ironic that some pb Tories while applauding the victory for their side appear not to have noticed that half its platform was lifted lock, stock and barrel from Labour's 2017 campaign.

    Just as Labour appears not to have noticed in its drive (see for instance the Jess Phillips stuff earlier in this thread) for working class authenticity that the country has for the second time in the last three elections voted in bona-fide toffs from Eton, Oxford and the Bullingdon Club. The electorate does not give a damn how much Jess spends on sodding earrings.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,769

    Byronic said:

    isam said:

    Scroll through old PB headers and there are many ‘xxxxx moves to shortest price yet on Betfair’ for some leadership or other (xxxxx being a failed leadership candidate). I have to hope Starmer joins the list 🙈

    It looks like a stitch-up for RLB to me.

    Also, why is PB so fucking small? I can't read the type
    You can expand the text in your browser (control + mouse scrollwheel, or from option at top of browser) but the underlying problem seems to be that about a third of the space is wasted on green bars down the side. I wonder if @rcs1000 inadvertently turned on some sort of default to mobile device option when he was playing with https, Wordpress and Vanilla over the weekend.
    Yeah, I'm planning on upgrading the PB theme.

    Frankly, moving server and upgrading to https took too much of my time, and now I have real work to do.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,917

    viewcode said:

    People should always be encouraged to develop their own skillsets and maximise their potential.

    Further academic study can be one method to do so but it should never become the only or the exclusive method.

    Agreed. There should be more than one tool in the toolbox.
    My understanding of a nursing degree is that it’s very similar to an apprenticeship but with academic study thrown in.

    People just see the word “degree” and start frothing about “the good old days”.
    People just see the word “degree” and think “Why does a nurse need to start her career £27k in debt”?
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    MJWMJW Posts: 1,527

    MJW said:

    The Labour Party really don't know how fucked they are, and how abysmal their offerings out are. It's like watching a crap string quartet who have snapped half their strings try and play on the deck of the Titanic.

    It is equally ironic that some pb Tories while applauding the victory for their side appear not to have noticed that half its platform was lifted lock, stock and barrel from Labour's 2017 campaign.

    Just as Labour appears not to have noticed in its drive (see for instance the Jess Phillips stuff earlier in this thread) for working class authenticity that the country has for the second time in the last three elections voted in bona-fide toffs from Eton, Oxford and the Bullingdon Club. The electorate does not give a damn how much Jess spends on sodding earrings.
    I was still, for my sins, a Labour member in 2017. I busted a gut out knocking on doors in 2015 to oust McVey in West Wirral. But yeah, you keep telling yourselves you're on the right track while your party carries on disgusting those of us who joined at 18, their mums having been CLP treasurers, loved the party to death, but think it's now a toxic presence one can no longer support. BTW, sod the Tories, not a fan - they are what they are - some sensible, some despicable. Generally on here worth listening to, even when you think they've got it wrong. Much as I disagree with their politics. I currently do not recognise the hateful, lost, bereft, and contradictory entity Labour is.

    But you do, you do. Carry on into well deserved oblivion.
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    OT did we do the thing about Biden saying he might pick a Republican as VP? On the merits it's being blown out of context but politically it sounds like a bad thing to say if running for Democratic votes while very, very old...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,769
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    People should always be encouraged to develop their own skillsets and maximise their potential.

    Further academic study can be one method to do so but it should never become the only or the exclusive method.

    Agreed. There should be more than one tool in the toolbox.
    My understanding of a nursing degree is that it’s very similar to an apprenticeship but with academic study thrown in.

    People just see the word “degree” and start frothing about “the good old days”.
    People just see the word “degree” and think “Why does a nurse need to start her career £27k in debt”?
    I think part of the issue here is that modern medicine has become much more bifurcated than it used to be.

    In the old days, you'd have doctors and nurses. And there'd be little specialist equipment. And you'd be given one of a small number of drugs. And you'd rest and be hydrated. And you'd survive or not.

    Medicine, now, is so specialised. And a lot of the more general work, right up to prescribing of drugs, is now performed by nurses. (Indeed, in many a busy A&E you can be triaged by a regular nurse, sent to a Nurse Practioner, who examines your XRays, and then prescribes you painkillers. You can have had an entire hospital visit, without being seen by a medical doctor.

    Much of the traditional role of nurse - cleaning up vomit, washing patients, and the like - is now performed by Healthcare Assistants, who do much of the grunt work.

    If we want nurses to be capable of prescribing drugs, they need training. Whether that is a degree or some combination is another matter. But I think it's simplistic to think of nursing these days as a relatively low skilled profession.
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    MJW said:

    MJW said:

    The Labour Party really don't know how fucked they are, and how abysmal their offerings out are. It's like watching a crap string quartet who have snapped half their strings try and play on the deck of the Titanic.

    It is equally ironic that some pb Tories while applauding the victory for their side appear not to have noticed that half its platform was lifted lock, stock and barrel from Labour's 2017 campaign.

    Just as Labour appears not to have noticed in its drive (see for instance the Jess Phillips stuff earlier in this thread) for working class authenticity that the country has for the second time in the last three elections voted in bona-fide toffs from Eton, Oxford and the Bullingdon Club. The electorate does not give a damn how much Jess spends on sodding earrings.
    I was still, for my sins, a Labour member in 2017. I busted a gut out knocking on doors in 2015 to oust McVey in West Wirral. But yeah, you keep telling yourselves you're on the right track while your party carries on disgusting those of us who joined at 18, their mums having been CLP treasurers, loved the party to death, but think it's now a toxic presence one can no longer support. BTW, sod the Tories, not a fan - they are what they are - some sensible, some despicable. Generally on here worth listening to, even when you think they've got it wrong. Much as I disagree with their politics. I currently do not recognise the hateful, lost, bereft, and contradictory entity Labour is.

    But you do, you do. Carry on into well deserved oblivion.
    For the avoidance of doubt, I am not and have never been a member of the Labour Party, and if you read what I wrote, you will see I am criticising Labour.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,400
    edited December 2019

    OT did we do the thing about Biden saying he might pick a Republican as VP? On the merits it's being blown out of context but politically it sounds like a bad thing to say if running for Democratic votes while very, very old...

    It is a bad thing to say. It is also rather quaint but we have seen for some time the Dems are more likely to try bipartisan approaches than the GOP which, certainly since the Tea Party days, has become far more tribal.
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    Good to see we're finally getting around to the "um these candidates are getting on a bit" news cycle

    https://twitter.com/Theophite/status/1211893572338716672?s=19
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,400
    edited December 2019

    Good to see we're finally getting around to the "um these candidates are getting on a bit" news cycle

    https://twitter.com/Theophite/status/1211893572338716672?s=19

    The interesting question is whether the age issue takes one of the leading candidates out or all of them. Is the risk of age-related disease X personal to candidate Y or will voters generalise the risk across all candidates of similar ages? And President Trump is no spring chicken.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,382

    MJW said:

    The Labour Party really don't know how fucked they are, and how abysmal their offerings out are. It's like watching a crap string quartet who have snapped half their strings try and play on the deck of the Titanic.

    It is equally ironic that some pb Tories while applauding the victory for their side appear not to have noticed that half its platform was lifted lock, stock and barrel from Labour's 2017 campaign.
    No it wasn't. People who make this claim generally haven't read the 2017 Labour manifesto - which was little different from their 2019 one - in sufficient detail.
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    It appears that Labour really are sticking with this one more heave narrative. Utterly bizarre for a party that just scored its worst electoral defeat in almost a century. It feels like the party has been hollowed out by Corbyn and fully recast now.

    The problem for Labour is exactly the same problem that faced the Tories in 1997-2007. It’s all very well and good having principles, but the government in power is now unashamedly in place for the sake of holding and retaining its position. Even more so than Blairism, which was similar but did have some vague underpinning ideology - I do not think Johnson, given the electoral coalition he has assembled, will have any scruples about doing what he thinks the prevailing mood of the country calls for. This is what New Labour also did well - if it’s a policy that looks like it will go down well, nab it.

    I struggle to see how a Corbynite Labour Party stays relevant.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,382

    It appears that Labour really are sticking with this one more heave narrative. Utterly bizarre for a party that just scored its worst electoral defeat in almost a century. It feels like the party has been hollowed out by Corbyn and fully recast now.

    The problem for Labour is exactly the same problem that faced the Tories in 1997-2007. It’s all very well and good having principles, but the government in power is now unashamedly in place for the sake of holding and retaining its position. Even more so than Blairism, which was similar but did have some vague underpinning ideology - I do not think Johnson, given the electoral coalition he has assembled, will have any scruples about doing what he thinks the prevailing mood of the country calls for. This is what New Labour also did well - if it’s a policy that looks like it will go down well, nab it.

    I struggle to see how a Corbynite Labour Party stays relevant.

    Well, one more heave of Corbynism should do it.

    The 'it' being the utter destruction of the Labour Party and/or its relegation to fifth party status.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    I think calling it a “one more heave” strategy is not quite right. More an “our day will come” strategy...
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,917

    Good to see we're finally getting around to the "um these candidates are getting on a bit" news cycle

    https://twitter.com/Theophite/status/1211893572338716672?s=19

    Trump is already the oldest President at inauguration. If elected, Sanders, Biden, Bloomberg and Warren would all be older.

    Old Bernie Sanders will be 79 in January 2021.

    https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/elections/2019/05/03/2020-candidates-ages/3643967002/
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,382
    edited December 2019
    I'm not sure if anyone has linked to this article yet - I can't remember anyone doing so:

    https://labourlist.org/2019/12/emily-thornberry-my-answers-to-five-key-leadership-questions/

    It's interesting for two reasons:

    1) Emily Thornberry is going to be absolutely hammered by members for admitting she argued against increased spending and also for saying the manifesto was uncosted. Both may be true - the second certainly is - but as we've seen on here, Labour members can't handle facts. They only want their narratives, and she doesn't fit.

    2) We should take seriously the possibility a Corbynista could win again, for the same reason as in 2015 - they offer what Labour members want to hear, while the alternative candidates have neither talent nor charisma and are not charting an effective path back to power.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,428

    It appears that Labour really are sticking with this one more heave narrative. Utterly bizarre for a party that just scored its worst electoral defeat in almost a century. It feels like the party has been hollowed out by Corbyn and fully recast now.

    The problem for Labour is exactly the same problem that faced the Tories in 1997-2007. It’s all very well and good having principles, but the government in power is now unashamedly in place for the sake of holding and retaining its position. Even more so than Blairism, which was similar but did have some vague underpinning ideology - I do not think Johnson, given the electoral coalition he has assembled, will have any scruples about doing what he thinks the prevailing mood of the country calls for. This is what New Labour also did well - if it’s a policy that looks like it will go down well, nab it.

    I struggle to see how a Corbynite Labour Party stays relevant.

    It was never relevant in the first place.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,917
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    People should always be encouraged to develop their own skillsets and maximise their potential.

    Further academic study can be one method to do so but it should never become the only or the exclusive method.

    Agreed. There should be more than one tool in the toolbox.
    My understanding of a nursing degree is that it’s very similar to an apprenticeship but with academic study thrown in.

    People just see the word “degree” and start frothing about “the good old days”.
    People just see the word “degree” and think “Why does a nurse need to start her career £27k in debt”?
    I think part of the issue here is that modern medicine has become much more bifurcated than it used to be.

    In the old days, you'd have doctors and nurses. And there'd be little specialist equipment. And you'd be given one of a small number of drugs. And you'd rest and be hydrated. And you'd survive or not.

    Medicine, now, is so specialised. And a lot of the more general work, right up to prescribing of drugs, is now performed by nurses. (Indeed, in many a busy A&E you can be triaged by a regular nurse, sent to a Nurse Practioner, who examines your XRays, and then prescribes you painkillers. You can have had an entire hospital visit, without being seen by a medical doctor.

    Much of the traditional role of nurse - cleaning up vomit, washing patients, and the like - is now performed by Healthcare Assistants, who do much of the grunt work.

    If we want nurses to be capable of prescribing drugs, they need training. Whether that is a degree or some combination is another matter. But I think it's simplistic to think of nursing these days as a relatively low skilled profession.
    What they should have done is come up with a new job title to reflect the new enhanced role - much as happened with the introduction of paramedics in ambulances a few decades ago.

    There also needs to be a pathway for experienced people in one profession to be able to transition to another, with their experience used as training credit.
This discussion has been closed.