Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
That’s the second suggestion this morning that the ‘one nation’ Tories whip up resentment.
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
That would be Byronic.
Oops, sorry, I meant Ironic. Autocorrect, eh?
Yes, my Autocorrect can’t distinguish between the two posters, either.
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
That’s the second suggestion this morning that the ‘one nation’ Tories whip up resentment.
Resentment would be just whipped up anyway, why not capitalise? Also, support gleaned through "Test the Character," is the strongest sort of all.
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
He seems v. close to the boundary of democratic socialist and SWP. Blair went beyond the boundary of SDP and Centre Party. Someone in the middle of that spectrum who actually talks sense?
Wrong-Dailey plus vacuous slogans seems like Miliband, E but towards the SWP end. Aaargh, please no.
Lewis on R4 this morning managed to talk for several minutes without uttering a single vacuous slogan. That's a plus. He supports PR = a big plus.
On that diagram weeks ago of what the public think of nationalisation, all they need is to avoid being at the 'nationalise Easyjet' end and they've got considerable public support. Most people supported natural monopolies being publicly-owned.
Woohoo, server upgrade. I note from the URL we're now on version 7.
Meanwhile, lots of overanalysis of RLB's leadership pitch. The theoretical discussion on here is much more interesting than the actual article, which simply says: we want to be viewed as both progressive and patriotic. Because our working assumption is that people liked the Labour policies, but didn't like the baggage that came along with the leadership.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
Interesting. So you are more with Powell in that one.
I am neither - although if pushed I prefer Thatcher's "values" definition.
Point is, you cannot "love" your country in any meaningful sense of the word. You can love certain aspects of it but you can't love IT.
Or you can, rather, but if you do it is a sign of something a little odd going on with the brain chemistry. I am happy to offer Enoch Powell in evidence of my assertion.
Turning to you, I bet (and I hope) that if you were forced under threat of 8 hours solid of CH4 News if you lie, that your deep down honest answer to the question, "Do you LOVE this country?" would be "Er, No. I can't say that I totally do."
Mr. kinabalu, the problem with the so-called progressive left isn't that they don't love their country, it's that they seem to dislike it.
Hence why politicians siding with our enemies doesn't go down well. See also the desire to demand we all feel guilty and responsible for historical sins.
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
Well done Robert @rcs1000, although I do still see a 'mixed content' warning - so there's non-https content somewhere on the page. (Firefox on OSX, latest versions).
It's real. Even if its nonsense it's real, the loyalty to and love of the tribe scaled up. Its even eclipsed religion in the last several centuries in some ways which is pretty impressive and unusual.
But it's nonsense from the viewpoint of a progressive. A progressive will - IMO correctly - view "love of country" as a mental aberration. Something to be treated rather than pandered to.
EDIT: By treated I mean argued against - not drugs and hospitals. Nobody in their right mind would advocate going that far.
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I assume that "Progressive Patriotism" comes with a whole bunch of self-loathing for everything the Nation has done before: slavery, Empire, war, Blair....
Unless it’s something to do with a union or workers rights... note that RLBs example today was something to do with mill workers.
Most people could think of things they like about the country that don’t have to be seen through the prism of the class war struggle. Unfortunately I’m not sure the continuity corbynites can...
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
Interesting. So you are more with Powell in that one.
I am neither - although if pushed I prefer Thatcher's "values" definition.
Point is, you cannot "love" your country in any meaningful sense of the word. You can love certain aspects of it but you can't love IT.
Or you can, rather, but if you do it is a sign of something a little odd going on with the brain chemistry. I am happy to offer Enoch Powell in evidence of my assertion.
Turning to you, I bet (and I hope) that if you were forced under threat of 8 hours solid of CH4 News if you lie, that your deep down honest answer to the question, "Do you LOVE this country?" would be "Er, No. I can't say that I totally do."
This runs into a bit of a meta problem in that it depends what you mean by love. The best definition I know is that you love someone (or perhaps something) if their happiness is essential to your own, but I’m not sure if that helps here.
Mr. kinabalu, the problem with the so-called progressive left isn't that they don't love their country, it's that they seem to dislike it.
Yes. That is damaging and needs to go. Even if much of it is perception over reality it needs to go. But let's not overcompensate and become phony. Patriotism IS the last refuge of scoundrels so let's leave it to Boris Johnson.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
Interesting. So you are more with Powell in that one.
I am neither - although if pushed I prefer Thatcher's "values" definition.
Point is, you cannot "love" your country in any meaningful sense of the word. You can love certain aspects of it but you can't love IT.
Or you can, rather, but if you do it is a sign of something a little odd going on with the brain chemistry. I am happy to offer Enoch Powell in evidence of my assertion.
Turning to you, I bet (and I hope) that if you were forced under threat of 8 hours solid of CH4 News if you lie, that your deep down honest answer to the question, "Do you LOVE this country?" would be "Er, No. I can't say that I totally do."
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
Mr. kinabalu, the problem with the so-called progressive left isn't that they don't love their country, it's that they seem to dislike it.
Yes. That is damaging and needs to go. Even if much of it is perception over reality it needs to go. But let's not overcompensate and become phony. Patriotism IS the last refuge of scoundrels so let's leave it to Boris Johnson.
I read the article and I’m afraid it strikes me as window dressing and one more heave. Better say I’m patriotic because that’s what those traditional voters like to hear. Talking about mill workers striking in one part of the country in support of Abraham Lincoln might be a commendable cause, but I’m not sure I subscribe to the notion that this is what many would jump to as an example of British patriotism.
Exactly. Lefties like describing everything they see as good, no matter how misguided it is, as progressive. And the right just love patriotism, even if they can't define it well. So it looks like they slapped together two already overloaded and farily meaningless words to come up with "progressive patriotism" which I expect will sound like a contradiction in terms to most people.
Just a little niggle with the upgrade: the comments haphazardly go either to the latest or earliest comment when I refresh. I havenot yet detected a pattern to this behaviour. Firefox / MacBook Air
This runs into a bit of a meta problem in that it depends what you mean by love. The best definition I know is that you love someone (or perhaps something) if their happiness is essential to your own, but I’m not sure if that helps here.
I like that definition but it is restricted to people or animals. Whereas I do think you can "love" a landscape, for example. Or a song. What you can't love is an abstract thing such as a country. Not even in the Enoch Powell sense of the physical place since the physical place is too big and varied for you to even know it let alone form an opinion on it as a whole. Who loves both Harrogate and Hartlepool? Very few.
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
Unless something major changes, I expect any subsequent referendum to go for independence, probably by quite a large margin. Johnson is absolutely not the man that wins Scottish hearts and minds. (Politics made a rare entry into conversation at my office the other day on the topic of Johnson. No-one had a good word for him in a business where conservatives should expect find supporters). English nationalism and English ascendancy don't play well in Scotland, unsurprisingly. I can't see other unionist politicians jumping in to be part of Johnson's campaign.
Much more likely, Johnson will simply ignore Scotland, including any call for a constitutional settlement, as Thatcher did previously. Unlike Thatcher he has very few Scottish seats to lose.
In religious studies, it was said there are six Greek words for love. Didn't go through them all, but there was eros (frisky time love), philadelphia (love of one's city), agape (sacrificial love), and love of one's brother, the name of which I forget.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
Ah well fighting for it, that's an extreme test. And of course there's a big difference between aggressive and defensive action. But, OK, with those caveats, I think Powell has a point.
But back to my question - DO YOU LOVE THIS COUNTRY?
In religious studies, it was said there are six Greek words for love. Didn't go through them all, but there was eros (frisky time love), philadelphia (love of one's city), agape (sacrificial love), and love of one's brother, the name of which I forget.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
In religious studies, it was said there are six Greek words for love. Didn't go through them all, but there was eros (frisky time love), philadelphia (love of one's city), agape (sacrificial love), and love of one's brother, the name of which I forget.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
In reality very few people are going to risk their life or kill anyone for country or values. The only reliable motivation for forcing people into such behaviour is the bond they feel toward their comrades. The armed forces know this only too well hence the overwhelming emphasis in training and indoctrination of suppressing the individual and the elevation of the unit and its shared objective.
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
Ah well fighting for it, that's an extreme test. And of course there's a big difference between aggressive and defensive action. But, OK, with those caveats, I think Powell has a point.
But back to my question - DO YOU LOVE THIS COUNTRY?
Block capitals now. It's THAT sort of question.
It's why I am becoming less likely to answer, just like when you kept trying to get me to do your class test!
In religious studies, it was said there are six Greek words for love. Didn't go through them all, but there was eros (frisky time love), philadelphia (love of one's city), agape (sacrificial love), and love of one's brother, the name of which I forget.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
philadelphia = brotherly love
No, that's storge. Philia means 'friendship (platonic)' and 'philadelphia' means 'place where affection is.'
The original Greek is slightly different from the modern psychological categorisations.
And of course "love" can be used casually - I love carrots etc - but here with patriotism we are talking of its deeper meaning. Nobody says "I love Britain" in the same sense that they love carrots. Or if they do, again, something amiss with the brain chemistry.
It's real. Even if its nonsense it's real, the loyalty to and love of the tribe scaled up. Its even eclipsed religion in the last several centuries in some ways which is pretty impressive and unusual.
But it's nonsense from the viewpoint of a progressive. A progressive will - IMO correctly - view "love of country" as a mental aberration. Something to be treated rather than pandered to.
EDIT: By treated I mean argued against - not drugs and hospitals. Nobody in their right mind would advocate going that far.
I’m more persuaded that there is something wired wrong if you don’t have a love for your own nation.
Must be a bit confusing for some poor souls in the 'nation' of the Yookay.
In religious studies, it was said there are six Greek words for love. Didn't go through them all, but there was eros (frisky time love), philadelphia (love of one's city), agape (sacrificial love), and love of one's brother, the name of which I forget.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
Was describing Philadelphia as love of a city some sort of pun? I think it means brotherly love...
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
In reality very few people are going to risk their life or kill anyone for country or values. The only reliable motivation for forcing people into such behaviour is the bond they feel toward their comrades. The armed forces know this only too well hence the overwhelming emphasis in training and indoctrination of suppressing the individual and the elevation of the unit and its shared objective.
And when they do mention patriotism, it's to "Queen and Country", with no reference to whichever group of idiot politicians decided to send them somewhere hot and sandy.
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
In reality very few people are going to risk their life or kill anyone for country or values. The only reliable motivation for forcing people into such behaviour is the bond they feel toward their comrades. The armed forces know this only too well hence the overwhelming emphasis in training and indoctrination of suppressing the individual and the elevation of the unit and its shared objective.
Obviously Powell was arguing from the stance of someone who had risked his life, and probably killed someone, for country. But I think the definition is still valid if the fighting were verbal or even on social media!
If the other parties are smart they will fight the 2021 election on the SNPs dreadful record on health, education and general competence and not mention the constitution at all.
Should be relatively easy - hospitals and schools are declining quite rapidly - that’s before you get into ferry contracts etc.
In religious studies, it was said there are six Greek words for love. Didn't go through them all, but there was eros (frisky time love), philadelphia (love of one's city), agape (sacrificial love), and love of one's brother, the name of which I forget.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
philadelphia = brotherly love
No, that's storge. Philia means 'friendship (platonic)' and 'philadelphia' means 'place where affection is.'
The original Greek is slightly different from the modern psychological categorisations.
Thanks for that, but φιλεω (phileo - love) and αδελφος (adelphos -brother) are the components of the word.
I've been crunching some numbers and I am looking for a betting market on the next Welsh assembly elections - most seats. Can't find it on betfair. Does anyone know if such a market is up yet?
I could not see anything last week, although the next election is not due till 2021.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
Interesting. So you are more with Powell in that one.
I am neither - although if pushed I prefer Thatcher's "values" definition.
Point is, you cannot "love" your country in any meaningful sense of the word. You can love certain aspects of it but you can't love IT.
Or you can, rather, but if you do it is a sign of something a little odd going on with the brain chemistry. I am happy to offer Enoch Powell in evidence of my assertion.
Turning to you, I bet (and I hope) that if you were forced under threat of 8 hours solid of CH4 News if you lie, that your deep down honest answer to the question, "Do you LOVE this country?" would be "Er, No. I can't say that I totally do."
I love my country. Genuinely. I recognise it isn't perfect; I recognise that there us a lot to admire and sometimes try to emulate in other countries, and I recognise that people from other countries may feel just as strongly about their home as I do about mine. But nevertheless I love my country, and never more so than when returning from abroad. Coming in through the clouds to see the Pennines and suburbs of South Manchester, or seeing the douth coast of England come into view from the ferry: this country makes me happy like no other could. It is the landscape, the people, the architecture, the language, the culture.
I must admit, I find it mildly odd when I meet someone who doesn't love their country, whichever country that is.
I'd be interested to see a map of where people agree with the phrase 'I love my country'. Will it tally with rich/poor divides, will it tally with the Tees-Exe line, will it be an urban/rural split? Will it actually look a lot like the 2019 electoral map?
It's just dawned on me that RLB is a Tory sleeper agent.
The Tory sleeper was surely in Corbyn's private office, from where emerged: 1) voter-repellent policies that repeated mistakes under Kinnock 2) a bloated, incoherent and incredible manifesto repeating Miliband's errors 3) major changes on the hoof, similar to Theresa May's hara-kiri 4) sending Corbyn to all the wrong places, like Michael Foot
Isn't it just easier - and more likely - to be the hidden Blairites who are to blame?
Anyone who ever voted for Blair should be expelled from the Party. That should sort things out.....
To be serious, and at risk of sounding like a broken record on under-the-radar campaigns, surely the untold story is the fall from grace of one J Corbyn MP in just two years since he was the new saviour in 2017.
I've been crunching some numbers and I am looking for a betting market on the next Welsh assembly elections - most seats. Can't find it on betfair. Does anyone know if such a market is up yet?
I could not see anything last week, although the next election is not due till 2021.
Thanks. And bother. That may mean I haven't got a market to highlight value in my statistical tour de force.
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
In reality very few people are going to risk their life or kill anyone for country or values. The only reliable motivation for forcing people into such behaviour is the bond they feel toward their comrades. The armed forces know this only too well hence the overwhelming emphasis in training and indoctrination of suppressing the individual and the elevation of the unit and its shared objective.
Obviously Powell was arguing from the stance of someone who had risked his life, and probably killed someone, for country. But I think the definition is still valid if the fighting were verbal or even on social media!
Powell was the most promoted soldier in WW2. He went from Private to Brigadier in 6 years.
Mr. kinabalu, the problem with the so-called progressive left isn't that they don't love their country, it's that they seem to dislike it.
Hence why politicians siding with our enemies doesn't go down well. See also the desire to demand we all feel guilty and responsible for historical sins.
No they just dislike parts of it, just as Brexiteers dislike parts of it.
It's all about which parts you dislike, and which parts you consider fundamental.
It's just dawned on me that RLB is a Tory sleeper agent.
The Tory sleeper was surely in Corbyn's private office, from where emerged: 1) voter-repellent policies that repeated mistakes under Kinnock 2) a bloated, incoherent and incredible manifesto repeating Miliband's errors 3) major changes on the hoof, similar to Theresa May's hara-kiri 4) sending Corbyn to all the wrong places, like Michael Foot
Isn't it just easier - and more likely - to be the hidden Blairites who are to blame?
Anyone who ever voted for Blair should be expelled from the Party. That should sort things out.....
To be serious, and at risk of sounding like a broken record on under-the-radar campaigns, surely the untold story is the fall from grace of one J Corbyn MP in just two years since he was the new saviour in 2017.
I kept saying he was not the Jezziah, he was a very naughty boy.
I think Starmer honestly should be considered favourite now based on that article. I expected to get something cliché-ridden and vacuous from Wrong-Dailey, but it's even worse than I thought. Sure, the cult might well still vote for her once Momentum endorse her, but I think there are a lot of soft left members who voted for Corbyn - like NP - who I can't see taking well to her if that article is in anyway representative of her leadership campaign. Hilarious, too, that she's endorsed Angela Rayner for Deputy Leader, when she seemingly hasn't even spoke to her, and there's no indication from Rayner she even wants to run for deputy leadership.
In religious studies, it was said there are six Greek words for love. Didn't go through them all, but there was eros (frisky time love), philadelphia (love of one's city), agape (sacrificial love), and love of one's brother, the name of which I forget.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
philadelphia = brotherly love
No, that's storge. Philia means 'friendship (platonic)' and 'philadelphia' means 'place where affection is.'
The original Greek is slightly different from the modern psychological categorisations.
The current meaning is “yes it’s dangerous but you could be in New Jersey or Delaware”.
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
Is this your strategy for making sure Yes wins IndyRef2?
Mate: Wendy Alexander had it right (this may be the only thing she had right) 'Bring it on' should be the only response - you strike early. Give the SNP IndyRef2 this coming Spring before any Brexit chaos hits.
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
You know little if you think they would coalesce under Tories
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
In religious studies, it was said there are six Greek words for love. Didn't go through them all, but there was eros (frisky time love), philadelphia (love of one's city), agape (sacrificial love), and love of one's brother, the name of which I forget.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
'Philadelphia' is brotherly love. 'Adelphos' means brother. 'Storge' is the other one - familial love. Maybe there's more but I can't remember.
If the other parties are smart they will fight the 2021 election on the SNPs dreadful record on health, education and general competence and not mention the constitution at all.
Should be relatively easy - hospitals and schools are declining quite rapidly - that’s before you get into ferry contracts etc.
You believe the shit from right wing rags from afar Harry, reality would sober you up. I have just been to hospital recently , treatment perfect , seen immediately , looked after well saw 3 doctors, was fed and watered in comfortable conditions by very pleasant staff. You have no clue.
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
Is this your strategy for making sure Yes wins IndyRef2?
For pure party advantage the Tories ought to be in favour of Scottish independence as it takes about 50 opposition MPs out of the commons. It is also justifiable on exactly the same grounds as Brexit (and some Brexit supporters on here acknowledge this). I don’t think any Tory PM who oversaw the end of the Union would be able to survive the experience however; it is after all the Conservative and Unionist Party.
If the other parties are smart they will fight the 2021 election on the SNPs dreadful record on health, education and general competence and not mention the constitution at all.
Should be relatively easy - hospitals and schools are declining quite rapidly - that’s before you get into ferry contracts etc.
You believe the shit from right wing rags from afar Harry, reality would sober you up. I have just been to hospital recently , treatment perfect , seen immediately , looked after well saw 3 doctors, was fed and watered in comfortable conditions by very pleasant staff. You have no clue.
Isn't that the difference between anecdote and statistics?
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
I must admit, I find it mildly odd when I meet someone who doesn't love their country, whichever country that is.
I'd be interested to see a map of where people agree with the phrase 'I love my country'. Will it tally with rich/poor divides, will it tally with the Tees-Exe line, will it be an urban/rural split? Will it actually look a lot like the 2019 electoral map?
I think you'd find you were mapping the vagaries of how people choose to use language and how deeply they think about things at least as much as any genuine differences of feeling. I like living in the UK; I feel happy when I come back to it from abroad; it's comforting to see familiar landscapes and architecture from the plane or train window, and to be somewhere where I know how things work and I speak the language and it all just feels normal and natural and it's what I grew up with. I care about the country making the right decisions, in a way I don't really care about French or German politics and which isn't solely because I live here and am directly affected. All that -- but I wouldn't say "I love the UK", because that just isn't something I'd say, not the way I would ever feel the most apt way to put into words the way I feel.
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
In reality very few people are going to risk their life or kill anyone for country or values. The only reliable motivation for forcing people into such behaviour is the bond they feel toward their comrades. The armed forces know this only too well hence the overwhelming emphasis in training and indoctrination of suppressing the individual and the elevation of the unit and its shared objective.
Obviously Powell was arguing from the stance of someone who had risked his life, and probably killed someone, for country. But I think the definition is still valid if the fighting were verbal or even on social media!
I'm sure Powell would have enthusiastically embraced action if given the chance but he never saw combat.
Ms. Morales, I suspect not as the General Election concern is who governs the country. What's the SNP policy beyond splitting it up? How do they want to change education in England, for example?
They just steal the policies of their nearest competitors, a la Brexit party.
Why would the SNP be concerned about education policy in England. They are there to run Scotland and get independence not interfere in other countries business, hence why they have never voted on English only matters.
It should be noted though that if the Scottish voteshares of 45% SNP and 25% Tory at this month's general election were repeated at the 2021 Holyrood elections that would actually be a swing to the Scottish Tories given at the 2016 Holyrood elections the SNP got 46.5% and the Tories got 22% on the constituency vote.
With Unionist parties tending to do better on the regional list vote and the SNP worse that could even produce a Unionist majority, killing off the prospect of indyref2 for at least a decade, even if the SNP remain the largest party at Holyrood.
And when they do mention patriotism, it's to "Queen and Country",
My experience with squaddies in Basra is that they wouldn't cross the road for either - and why should they? They were w/c lads from deprived shit holes. Queen and country never did anything for them.
However, if a random haji looked sideways at one of their mates they wouldn't hesitate to push his shit in.
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
That’s the second suggestion this morning that the ‘one nation’ Tories whip up resentment.
The morons are in control Nigel, they have encouraged low lives like these to crawl out from under their rocks.
I've been crunching some numbers and I am looking for a betting market on the next Welsh assembly elections - most seats. Can't find it on betfair. Does anyone know if such a market is up yet?
I could not see anything last week, although the next election is not due till 2021.
Thanks. And bother. That may mean I haven't got a market to highlight value in my statistical tour de force.
Ask the bookies (or Betfair) for a market. The traders will be back from their holidays next week.
He seems v. close to the boundary of democratic socialist and SWP. Blair went beyond the boundary of SDP and Centre Party. Someone in the middle of that spectrum who actually talks sense?
Wrong-Dailey plus vacuous slogans seems like Miliband, E but towards the SWP end. Aaargh, please no.
Lewis on R4 this morning managed to talk for several minutes without uttering a single vacuous slogan. That's a plus. He supports PR = a big plus...
That is interesting. If genuine, then that means he is at least some kind of pluralist, which is unusual for a socialist.
If the other parties are smart they will fight the 2021 election on the SNPs dreadful record on health, education and general competence and not mention the constitution at all.
Should be relatively easy - hospitals and schools are declining quite rapidly - that’s before you get into ferry contracts etc.
You believe the shit from right wing rags from afar Harry, reality would sober you up. I have just been to hospital recently , treatment perfect , seen immediately , looked after well saw 3 doctors, was fed and watered in comfortable conditions by very pleasant staff. You have no clue.
Isn't that the difference between anecdote and statistics?
Unfortunately the statistics are better than any other UK NHS and prove my point perfectly, so just a little reality to soften up the hard statistics. I know the frothers on here are ignorant to Scotland but the NHS is alive and well despite it all. Some people need to widen their horizons.
It's real. Even if its nonsense it's real, the loyalty to and love of the tribe scaled up. Its even eclipsed religion in the last several centuries in some ways which is pretty impressive and unusual.
But it's nonsense from the viewpoint of a progressive. A progressive will - IMO correctly - view "love of country" as a mental aberration. Something to be treated rather than pandered to.
EDIT: By treated I mean argued against - not drugs and hospitals. Nobody in their right mind would advocate going that far.
I’m more persuaded that there is something wired wrong if you don’t have a love for your own nation.
Must be a bit confusing for some poor souls in the 'nation' of the Yookay.
There are some real roasters on here nowadays, it makes you wonder if they ever went to school or looked at any books.
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
In reality very few people are going to risk their life or kill anyone for country or values. The only reliable motivation for forcing people into such behaviour is the bond they feel toward their comrades. The armed forces know this only too well hence the overwhelming emphasis in training and indoctrination of suppressing the individual and the elevation of the unit and its shared objective.
Obviously Powell was arguing from the stance of someone who had risked his life, and probably killed someone, for country. But I think the definition is still valid if the fighting were verbal or even on social media!
Actually i think that isn't true. As i understand it he never experienced combat action, and to some extent it gave him a sense of shame (that effectively his brain ensured that he spent the war engaged in tasks that kept him away from direct action).
Yet another reason to leave the EU - today's introduction of EU taxes fines for car manufacturers who don't sell enough electric cars.
Right now, none of them do, and they don't have the capacity to do so either. The new rulest will just make new, more efficient, cars more expensive - and the EU coffers richer.
I think I agree with Powell if he is saying that a patriot fights for his country rather than the political philosophy that is fashionable in that country at the time
In reality very few people are going to risk their life or kill anyone for country or values. The only reliable motivation for forcing people into such behaviour is the bond they feel toward their comrades. The armed forces know this only too well hence the overwhelming emphasis in training and indoctrination of suppressing the individual and the elevation of the unit and its shared objective.
Obviously Powell was arguing from the stance of someone who had risked his life, and probably killed someone, for country. But I think the definition is still valid if the fighting were verbal or even on social media!
I'm sure Powell would have enthusiastically embraced action if given the chance but he never saw combat.
Oh is that so? I knew he had quite a distinguished war in terms of promotion as @Dura_Ace said, but didn’t know the details
Yeah I agree. Progressive politicians want to change the country from something they dislike, what RLB is asking people to do is love the ends of progressive politics, not their country. Fair enough, I don't see anything wrong in that, but she shouldn't use the word Patriotism.
I don't think she means anything other than to make the blindingly obvious point that if you are perceived to be ANTI British this will be a net vote loser. But I haven't read the article.
As regards 'dislike of country' you can say that of any radical. If you want to massively change something it follows, from that formulation, that you dislike what it is now. Thatcher, for example, in the late 70s. She hated Britain.
Well I guess everyone will have their own definition of what patriotism is, and will tailor their arguments to make them seem patriotic whilst being able to argue that someone else's form of patriotism is wrong. To me it is unconditional love of one's country, no matter who the government. Reminds me of the argument between Thatcher and Powell
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
It's real. Even if its nonsense it's real, the loyalty to and love of the tribe scaled up. Its even eclipsed religion in the last several centuries in some ways which is pretty impressive and unusual.
But it's nonsense from the viewpoint of a progressive. A progressive will - IMO correctly - view "love of country" as a mental aberration. Something to be treated rather than pandered to.
EDIT: By treated I mean argued against - not drugs and hospitals. Nobody in their right mind would advocate going that far.
I’m more persuaded that there is something wired wrong if you don’t have a love for your own nation.
Must be a bit confusing for some poor souls in the 'nation' of the Yookay.
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The problem with the Scottish regional polling was even worse with the constituency specific polling. Of the 47 seat specific polls on the Wikipedia opinion poll webpage, 12 got the winner completely wrong (including, for example, all three polls in Putney). Particularly poor were the eight LibDem/Survation polls which were published, which wrongly predicted the outcome in Cambridge, South Cambs, SE Cambs, Finchley & Golders Green and Portsmouth South. Many included vote shares which were dramatically outside the relevant margins of error.
These seat-specific polls often generated a great deal of press coverage. No doubt they influenced some tactical voting by voters as well as targeting etc. by the parties. In general, they overstated LibDem/Ind support and understated both Con and Lab support. For example, the three polls in Kensington showed a Con/Lab lead of 4% and 10% and a Con/LD lead of just 3%. As we know, it was effectively a Con/Lab dead heat on the night, with the LD a distant third place.
Has anyone analysed the final YouGov MRP study by seat, against the outcome?
The Yougov MRP was pretty accurate, the first had a Tory majority of 68 and it ended up at 80, though it had Kensington going Labour and Dagenham and Rainham going Tory in its final poll but it did correctly predict Putney would go Labour
Yet another reason to leave the EU - today's introduction of EU taxes fines for car manufacturers who don't sell enough electric cars.
Right now, none of them do, and they don't have the capacity to do so either. The new rulest will just make new, more efficient, cars more expensive - and the EU coffers richer.
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
Is this your strategy for making sure Yes wins IndyRef2?
For pure party advantage the Tories ought to be in favour of Scottish independence as it takes about 50 opposition MPs out of the commons. It is also justifiable on exactly the same grounds as Brexit (and some Brexit supporters on here acknowledge this). I don’t think any Tory PM who oversaw the end of the Union would be able to survive the experience however; it is after all the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Any Tory PM who lost Scotland would end up like Lord North after he lost the American colonies (though Attlee gave up India willingly, as did Macmillan much of Africa)
The problem with the Scottish regional polling was even worse with the constituency specific polling. Of the 47 seat specific polls on the Wikipedia opinion poll webpage, 12 got the winner completely wrong (including, for example, all three polls in Putney). Particularly poor were the eight LibDem/Survation polls which were published, which wrongly predicted the outcome in Cambridge, South Cambs, SE Cambs, Finchley & Golders Green and Portsmouth South. Many included vote shares which were dramatically outside the relevant margins of error.
These seat-specific polls often generated a great deal of press coverage. No doubt they influenced some tactical voting by voters as well as targeting etc. by the parties. In general, they overstated LibDem/Ind support and understated both Con and Lab support. For example, the three polls in Kensington showed a Con/Lab lead of 4% and 10% and a Con/LD lead of just 3%. As we know, it was effectively a Con/Lab dead heat on the night, with the LD a distant third place.
Has anyone analysed the final YouGov MRP study by seat, against the outcome?
The Yougov MRP was pretty accurate, the first had a Tory majority of 68 and it ended up at 80, though it had Kensington going Labour and Dagenham and Rainham going Tory in its final poll but it did correctly predict Putney would go Labour
In the end, London was pretty much anti-climactic - Tories lost two seats, but gained two seats. One gain from LD, one loss to LD. One loss to Labour, one gain from Labour.
I love my country. Genuinely. I recognise it isn't perfect; I recognise that there us a lot to admire and sometimes try to emulate in other countries, and I recognise that people from other countries may feel just as strongly about their home as I do about mine. But nevertheless I love my country, and never more so than when returning from abroad. Coming in through the clouds to see the Pennines and suburbs of South Manchester, or seeing the douth coast of England come into view from the ferry: this country makes me happy like no other could. It is the landscape, the people, the architecture, the language, the culture.
I must admit, I find it mildly odd when I meet someone who doesn't love their country, whichever country that is.
That is too eloquent not be sincere.
BUT how would you react to an accusation of mislabeling comfort in the familiar as love?
The smartest thing the Conservatives could do re: hashtag Indyref2 would be to deny it for a while, whip up resentment, let the SNP get comfy thinking they can get a lot of lovely grievance that keeps their seats warm, and then force it on them. At some point the Unionists will have to coalesce under one party and a nice Independence campaign that contains a couple of polls with 10-point "Yes" leads would be just the sort of thing. It's unlikely Labour would be the party to capitalise as the trauma of the previous campaign plus the terrible mess they're in nationally due to their previous joke of a leader, and their forthcoming joke of a leader, would lead to some sort of collective nervous breakdown.
Also it would be fun. Imagine if SeanT were still around and the ten-point "Yes" poll rolled in!
Unless something major changes, I expect any subsequent referendum to go for independence, probably by quite a large margin. Johnson is absolutely not the man that wins Scottish hearts and minds. (Politics made a rare entry into conversation at my office the other day on the topic of Johnson. No-one had a good word for him in a business where conservatives should expect find supporters). English nationalism and English ascendancy don't play well in Scotland, unsurprisingly. I can't see other unionist politicians jumping in to be part of Johnson's campaign.
Much more likely, Johnson will simply ignore Scotland, including any call for a constitutional settlement, as Thatcher did previously. Unlike Thatcher he has very few Scottish seats to lose.
Johnson has still won the second highest Scottish Tory voteshare and number of seats since 1992. In fact the 25.1% the Tories got in Scotland on December 12th was higher than the 24.7% Thatcher's Tories got in Scotland in 1987 or the 24% Heath's Tories got in Scotland in October 1974
I think Starmer honestly should be considered favourite now based on that article. I expected to get something cliché-ridden and vacuous from Wrong-Dailey, but it's even worse than I thought. Sure, the cult might well still vote for her once Momentum endorse her, but I think there are a lot of soft left members who voted for Corbyn - like NP - who I can't see taking well to her if that article is in anyway representative of her leadership campaign. Hilarious, too, that she's endorsed Angela Rayner for Deputy Leader, when she seemingly hasn't even spoke to her, and there's no indication from Rayner she even wants to run for deputy leadership.
If Labour members want to stick left they will vote Long Bailey regardless, no matter how poor her articles
Comments
"Mrs Thatcher said (in effect) that Norman had shown that the Bomb was necessary for the defence of our values. Powell: "No, we do not fight for values. I would fight for this country even if it had a communist government." Thatcher (it was just before the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands): "Nonsense, Enoch. If I send British troops abroad, it will be to defend our values." "No, Prime Minister, values exist in a transcendental realm, beyond space and time. They can neither be fought for, nor destroyed." Mrs Thatcher looked utterly baffled. She had just been presented with the difference between Toryism and American Republicanism"
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2007/03/the-revival-of-tory-philosophy/
Oops, sorry, I meant Ironic. Autocorrect, eh?
So Nazi loyalists were German patriots ?
Blair went beyond the boundary of SDP and Centre Party.
Someone in the middle of that spectrum who actually talks sense?
Wrong-Dailey plus vacuous slogans seems like Miliband, E but towards the SWP end. Aaargh, please no.
Lewis on R4 this morning managed to talk for several minutes without uttering a single vacuous slogan. That's a plus. He supports PR = a big plus.
On that diagram weeks ago of what the public think of nationalisation, all they need is to avoid being at the 'nationalise Easyjet' end and they've got considerable public support. Most people supported natural monopolies being publicly-owned.
Meanwhile, lots of overanalysis of RLB's leadership pitch. The theoretical discussion on here is much more interesting than the actual article, which simply says: we want to be viewed as both progressive and patriotic. Because our working assumption is that people liked the Labour policies, but didn't like the baggage that came along with the leadership.
Thanks to rcs100 for the upgrade.
I am neither - although if pushed I prefer Thatcher's "values" definition.
Point is, you cannot "love" your country in any meaningful sense of the word. You can love certain aspects of it but you can't love IT.
Or you can, rather, but if you do it is a sign of something a little odd going on with the brain chemistry. I am happy to offer Enoch Powell in evidence of my assertion.
Turning to you, I bet (and I hope) that if you were forced under threat of 8 hours solid of CH4 News if you lie, that your deep down honest answer to the question, "Do you LOVE this country?" would be "Er, No. I can't say that I totally do."
Hence why politicians siding with our enemies doesn't go down well. See also the desire to demand we all feel guilty and responsible for historical sins.
Well done Robert @rcs1000, although I do still see a 'mixed content' warning - so there's non-https content somewhere on the page. (Firefox on OSX, latest versions).
Most people could think of things they like about the country that don’t have to be seen through the prism of the class war struggle. Unfortunately I’m not sure the continuity corbynites can...
I would leave him no hiding place...
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1211594791806492673
Firefox / MacBook Air
Much more likely, Johnson will simply ignore Scotland, including any call for a constitutional settlement, as Thatcher did previously. Unlike Thatcher he has very few Scottish seats to lose.
It is interesting that English, which has a pretty large number of words in it, has just the one.
But back to my question - DO YOU LOVE THIS COUNTRY?
Block capitals now. It's THAT sort of question.
The original Greek is slightly different from the modern psychological categorisations.
https://mobile.twitter.com/undertheraedar/status/1205429108521480192
LOL at Sheffield Hallam.
I wonder if the next direction of travel there is back towards the Tories?
Quite amazing that the LDs couldn't take Hallam back.
I must admit, I find it mildly odd when I meet someone who doesn't love their country, whichever country that is.
I'd be interested to see a map of where people agree with the phrase 'I love my country'. Will it tally with rich/poor divides, will it tally with the Tees-Exe line, will it be an urban/rural split? Will it actually look a lot like the 2019 electoral map?
It's all about which parts you dislike, and which parts you consider fundamental.
Mate: Wendy Alexander had it right (this may be the only thing she had right) 'Bring it on' should be the only response - you strike early. Give the SNP IndyRef2 this coming Spring before any Brexit chaos hits.
Today is not that day!
'Storge' is the other one - familial love.
Maybe there's more but I can't remember.
The last time that happened was in 1997, I'm not sure that today's Labour party will be learning that lesson any time soon!
Boris Johnson, whatever else you might think of him, does positivity and optimism in spades.
I was merely illustrating that patriotism is a cultural phenomenon rather than any kind of moral attribute.
As for this one if you refuse to answer I will have to assume the worst - that you DO love your country.
With Unionist parties tending to do better on the regional list vote and the SNP worse that could even produce a Unionist majority, killing off the prospect of indyref2 for at least a decade, even if the SNP remain the largest party at Holyrood.
However, if a random haji looked sideways at one of their mates they wouldn't hesitate to push his shit in.
Perhaps "Bourgeois" would be a better name for them.
Right now, none of them do, and they don't have the capacity to do so either. The new rulest will just make new, more efficient, cars more expensive - and the EU coffers richer.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/12/29/car-giants-face-billions-fines-eu-emissions-rules-take-effect/
BUT how would you react to an accusation of mislabeling comfort in the familiar as love?