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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Leave seat with a miniscule LAB majority that didn’t fall

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited December 2019 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Leave seat with a miniscule LAB majority that didn’t fall

Even though it was a fortnight ago I’ve still not found an answer to what appeared to be an inexplicable outcome in my seat of Bedford. This is a constituency that at GE2010, GE2015, GE2017 and the referendum voted most of all 650 seats in line with the country as a whole. Longstanding PB regular, Andy JS, highlighted the seat’s status before GE2019 and certainly on hearing the exit poll many, including me, assumed that the Tories with their energetic young candidate had won it back.

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Comments

  • First ... yet again!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,519
    edited December 2019
    It certainly makes sense that Beford is a marginal. Anything connected to London has behaved very differently from the rest of the country in this election. It is a worldwide phenomenon after all: cities and their hinterlands decoupling from the remainder of the country.

    It has also happened before in our history. I remember reading that in the early 18th century the City and Westminster, where huge electorates meant that public opinion had much more of a role than in the many pocket boroughs.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,116

    I believe there is a far more relevant and indeed more obvious reason than those given by Mike Smithson for Labour's success in retaining the Bedford Parliamentary Constituency. This relates to its high and expanding ethnic population, evidenced by Electoral Calculus' figures showing that only 77% of its electorate was born in the UK ... this is only marginally higher than the 73% applicable to the Luton North Constituency which is now very much a Labour stronghold, with a majority of 9,247 achieved two weeks ago.
    In both constituencies the percentage of British born constituents is very much lower than the national average of 88%.

    Sounds plausible.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,457

    I believe there is a far more relevant and indeed more obvious reason than those given by Mike Smithson for Labour's success in retaining the Bedford Parliamentary Constituency. This relates to its high and expanding ethnic population, evidenced by Electoral Calculus' figures showing that only 77% of its electorate was born in the UK ... this is only marginally higher than the 73% applicable to the Luton North Constituency which is now very much a Labour stronghold, with a majority of 9,247 achieved two weeks ago.
    In both constituencies the percentage of British born constituents is very much lower than the national average of 88%.

    Yeah, but Bedford has always been like that.

    When I was at Biddenham Upper School in the late 80s and early 90s, only 40% of the pupils had English as their first language. There was also a Club Polski on the High Street and a big Polish diaspora from waaaaaaayyy before Poland joined the EU.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2019
    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,000
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/seats-won-by-tories-have-most-to-lose-from-boris-johnsons-eu-trade-deal-2ff7rptxn

    Gosh! Whoever could have predicted this? It might even have been mentioned once or twice on political websites.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,255
    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,255
    Cyclefree said:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/seats-won-by-tories-have-most-to-lose-from-boris-johnsons-eu-trade-deal-2ff7rptxn

    Gosh! Whoever could have predicted this? It might even have been mentioned once or twice on political websites.

    was the Times article written by 364 economics professors?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited December 2019

    I believe there is a far more relevant and indeed more obvious reason than those given by Mike Smithson for Labour's success in retaining the Bedford Parliamentary Constituency. This relates to its high and expanding ethnic population, evidenced by Electoral Calculus' figures showing that only 77% of its electorate was born in the UK ... this is only marginally higher than the 73% applicable to the Luton North Constituency which is now very much a Labour stronghold, with a majority of 9,247 achieved two weeks ago.
    In both constituencies the percentage of British born constituents is very much lower than the national average of 88%.

    It is far more sophisticated than that. The LAB incumbent is a Muslim which barely endrears him to to Hindu and Sikh communities. Also 29% of the population are of Italian descent and they make up the largest group. In the Mayoral election in May the Tories had their best ever performance when they put up a candidate of Italian descent. There is also a very large Polish community.
  • Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    harmful to who?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,191

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    harmful to who?
    If he had enacted most of his policies, everybody.

    However, the poor would have suffered first and worst, because they have least cushioning against inflation.
  • Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    Surely "in spite of" suggests thinking Corbyn was harmful but Brexit even worse? A similar conclusion was reached by some City banks.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,813
    Bedford becoming a Poundshop Luton.....
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,116
    Bedford may simply be a random oddity not worth wasting time over but perhaps reflecting the continuing tendency of the southern chatterati to think the world revolves around their idiosyncrasies while seeking to sublimate all those Tory gains as somehow aberrant. We may be back to those queues in Battersea on polling day here.
  • felix said:

    Bedford may simply be a random oddity not worth wasting time over but perhaps reflecting the continuing tendency of the southern chatterati to think the world revolves around their idiosyncrasies while seeking to sublimate all those Tory gains as somehow aberrant. We may be back to those queues in Battersea on polling day here.

    Except in this case, OGH is wondering why Bedford did not go blue, taking Tory gains as the norm.

    @Cyclefree has posted a link to a paywalled Times article whose title suggests Brexit might have downsides for the newly-blue seats that run on exports to Europe if Boris cannot reach a deal. If correct, well, Boris can shake the magic money tree and create offsetting jobs in time for the next election.
  • Good morning, everyone.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,116

    felix said:

    Bedford may simply be a random oddity not worth wasting time over but perhaps reflecting the continuing tendency of the southern chatterati to think the world revolves around their idiosyncrasies while seeking to sublimate all those Tory gains as somehow aberrant. We may be back to those queues in Battersea on polling day here.

    Except in this case, OGH is wondering why Bedford did not go blue, taking Tory gains as the norm.

    @Cyclefree has posted a link to a paywalled Times article whose title suggests Brexit might have downsides for the newly-blue seats that run on exports to Europe if Boris cannot reach a deal. If correct, well, Boris can shake the magic money tree and create offsetting jobs in time for the next election.
    Not the point. Odd seats always go against the grain. They are not the interesting feature of the election. They were several other parts of the NW for example with little or no swing. In many southern seats there were small swings to the LDs but not enough for them to make net gains. In some NE seats the swing was much less than in others. As I said unlikley that there are any special lessons to learn from Bedford.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,856
    Anyone know why you can get Buttigieg at better than evens to win Iowa?
    I know there's a while to go, but he's leading in the polls... by 7 points in Selzer's poll in November.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,813
    Citizens of Bedford best hope Boris isn't a vindictive man.

    "Now, where shall we site the new national medical waste facility?"

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 46,765
    edited December 2019
    I agree with Peter that it’s surely the demographic change that is responsible. The remarkable statistic is the very small fall in the Labour vote, compared to the nationally more significant one. Look at other commuter towns not far from London: Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Watford, and the Labour vote is still down 6-10% despite all those commuters.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 46,765
    rcs1000 said:

    I believe there is a far more relevant and indeed more obvious reason than those given by Mike Smithson for Labour's success in retaining the Bedford Parliamentary Constituency. This relates to its high and expanding ethnic population, evidenced by Electoral Calculus' figures showing that only 77% of its electorate was born in the UK ... this is only marginally higher than the 73% applicable to the Luton North Constituency which is now very much a Labour stronghold, with a majority of 9,247 achieved two weeks ago.
    In both constituencies the percentage of British born constituents is very much lower than the national average of 88%.

    Yeah, but Bedford has always been like that.

    When I was at Biddenham Upper School in the late 80s and early 90s, only 40% of the pupils had English as their first language. There was also a Club Polski on the High Street and a big Polish diaspora from waaaaaaayyy before Poland joined the EU.
    It’s the higher birth rate among parents who weren’t born in the UK that drives both population growth and demographic change in such areas. What you saw in the schools progressively becomes the new cohorts of voters being added to the local electorate, to replace the slices of oldies who have left the register.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,552
    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,122
    edited December 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    I believe there is a far more relevant and indeed more obvious reason than those given by Mike Smithson for Labour's success in retaining the Bedford Parliamentary Constituency. This relates to its high and expanding ethnic population, evidenced by Electoral Calculus' figures showing that only 77% of its electorate was born in the UK ... this is only marginally higher than the 73% applicable to the Luton North Constituency which is now very much a Labour stronghold, with a majority of 9,247 achieved two weeks ago.
    In both constituencies the percentage of British born constituents is very much lower than the national average of 88%.

    Yeah, but Bedford has always been like that.

    When I was at Biddenham Upper School in the late 80s and early 90s, only 40% of the pupils had English as their first language. There was also a Club Polski on the High Street and a big Polish diaspora from waaaaaaayyy before Poland joined the EU.
    Yes, but the question is, why didn't Bedford fall to the Tories in 2019? I'd suggest that Bedford probably doesn't have many Old Labour voters who abandoned the party in much of the midlands and the north. Even Carshalton and Wallington has some of these people and they helped the Tories make a gain from the Lib Dems.

    I suspect the Labour vote in Bedford is a composed of the ethnic minority vote and younger commuter types. For seats like this, the 2019 GE was very much a case of "as you were".
  • rkrkrk said:

    Anyone know why you can get Buttigieg at better than evens to win Iowa?
    I know there's a while to go, but he's leading in the polls... by 7 points in Selzer's poll in November.

    As you say there is a month to go. Mayor Pete is ahead now but a month ago he wasn't. Let us assume polling remains the same, then you'd expect the price to fall steadily with time, but there is another debate due in January, and more candidates may drop out before February, and even on the night Amy Klobuchar will be touch and go for viability.

    One known unknown is the man-flu @rcs1000 tells us has laid waste to California. None of the candidates can afford to be off their game in the run up to the next debate on 14th January.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,255

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    harmful to who?
    everyone's wallet.. he would have destroyed the economy with his ludicrous giveaways. the markets would have taken it very badly, interest rates would have risen, mortgages a lot more expensive, rampant inflation and so on and so forth
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,255
    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    So you are into homeopathy rather than surgery.. well its a view I suppose,.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    It was something I heard a bit from acquaintances rationalising a vote for Labour, though not one I understand. I get the idea that a hamstrung Corbyn in a hung parliament might not have been able to do too much damage, but a Corbyn Govt with the theoretical power to do some of the things that were being proposed? Think some of that would have had some pretty long term effects...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 46,765
    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    The likely rebalancing away from London is ironic with the PM a former mayor of the capital.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,813
    IanB2 said:

    I agree with Peter that it’s surely the demographic change that is responsible. The remarkable statistic is the very small fall in the Labour vote, compared to the nationally more significant one. Look at other commuter towns not far from London: Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Watford, and the Labour vote is still down 6-10% despite all those commuters.

    Luton is an interesting compare and contrast with Bedford. In Luton South, Gavin Shuker increased the Labour vote by 18% in 2017. Quite a result. As an independent in 2019 he got nearly 4,000, so the Labour result this year of -10.6% doesn't look so far off Bedford if you factor in Shuker's 9.3% of the vote.

    In Luton North, Kelvin Hopkins standing down maybe showed how his personal vote affected the turnout, down from 71% in 2017 to 62.5% in 2019. His supporters look to have sat on their bums. Labour's majority dropped 5,000 even as the Tory vote fell slightly. If Kelvin had stood again, the result may have looked quite similar to Bedford.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,191
    edited December 2019
    England are screwed here. Prediction. - All out for 100 before lunch.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    So you are into homeopathy rather than surgery.. well its a view I suppose,.
    Theoretical physics.
    "permanent damage"might have been a better choice.
    This is a betting site: the odds of Corbyn getting a majority were negligible.
    Politics here is basically polarised with one lot undoing the other lot's work, with the LDs being accused of wishy-washyness and squeezed by the two extremes.
  • I think the only lesson is that bellwethers don't stay bellwethers forever and are no more immune to demographic changes than anywhere else. Bedford is probably no longer a seat to keep a particular eye on during election night.

    The seat I live in, Lincoln, I would argue to be a more interesting one at the moment. It's been won by whichever party gets the most seats at 11 of the last 12 general elections (since the 2nd 1974 election) with 2017 being the only exception to that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369
    edited December 2019
    Interesting now to analyse the seats that were outliers to the results seen elsewhere. As others have said, the answer to Bedford probably lies in the demographics - more ethnic minorities and young London A B class commuters, fewer white C1 C2 D classes - who were the swing voters at this election.

    Is it correct that Putney was the only seat to go from Con to Lab in 2019?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,864
    edited December 2019
    Betting Post

    F1: if you backed my Hamilton to beat Schumacher's win record (he needs 92 and is currently on 84) bet at 9 then there's a nice hedge up on Ladbrokes.

    There's 2.2, without boost, for Hamilton to get under 9.5 wins in 2020. This means there's a golden window of 8 wins whereby both bets can come off. He got 11 in 2019.

    Up to you, of course, but it's a way to be green either way if you go for it, with a small chance of both outcomes coming off. And the total wins bet is without a time limit so if he gets 7 this year then the other bet can happen later.

    For what it's worth, I think he'll probably get into double figures again, but might take the hedge just to guarantee profit.


    Edited extra bit: the earlier bet was at odds of 9, not 9.5. Just corrected.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Ongoing demographic changes seems very plausible to me as an occasional Bedford visitor.

    Interesting that the pb LibDems in Bedford all seem to have voted Labour.

    One of the consequences of this is that it makes it less likely Labour will ever adopt proportional representation.

    Why should they? In marginal seats, Labour get what they want, election after election, from the Libdems for nothing in return. Labour would be dumb to change all that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369

    Betting Post

    F1: if you backed my Hamilton to beat Schumacher's win record (he needs 92 and is currently on 84) bet at 9 then there's a nice hedge up on Ladbrokes.

    There's 2.2, without boost, for Hamilton to get under 9.5 wins in 2020. This means there's a golden window of 8 wins whereby both bets can come off. He got 11 in 2019.

    Up to you, of course, but it's a way to be green either way if you go for it, with a small chance of both outcomes coming off. And the total wins bet is without a time limit so if he gets 7 this year then the other bet can happen later.

    For what it's worth, I think he'll probably get into double figures again, but might take the hedge just to guarantee profit.

    That was a fantastic bet at the time, well done.

    I’m trying to remember why I didn’t do the same, I think it might have been when I started to have ‘problems’ with Ladbrokes.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?
  • Hmm. Annoyingly the bet history on Ladbrokes doesn't seem to go back all that far...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,813
    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?

    Some kind of NATO I say.......
  • Mr. Sandpit, I think it was some time in 2018. Don't have a date (but I have started keeping note of bet receipt numbers, just in case that comes up).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369
    edited December 2019
    Just catching up on yesterday’s story about Jo Maugham. Rather amusing to watch those who object profusely to rural farmers spending Boxing Day rounding up foxes, seem quite fine with an urban Remain supporter killing one himself. I wouldn’t usually say Remain supporter way out of context, but almost everyone defending him on Twitter has #FBPE and an EU flag in their screen name.

    (Yes, they’re vermin, which the countryside dwellers have been pointing out for more than two decades now. Badgers the same.)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,813

    Ongoing demographic changes seems very plausible to me as an occasional Bedford visitor.

    Interesting that the pb LibDems in Bedford all seem to have voted Labour.

    One of the consequences of this is that it makes it less likely Labour will ever adopt proportional representation.

    Why should they? In marginal seats, Labour get what they want, election after election, from the Libdems for nothing in return. Labour would be dumb to change all that.

    Meanwhile, the holier-than-thou LibDems will have to live with themselves for voting for the anti-semite party....

    (2019 suggests the LibDems aren't so much a party, more of a loose agglomeration of anti-Tories.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369
    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?

    More like some kind of treaty between the North Atlantic nations.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310

    Citizens of Bedford best hope Boris isn't a vindictive man.

    "Now, where shall we site the new national medical waste facility?"

    Well they are SOOL if they’re relying on his being a man of principle...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310
    ydoethur said:

    England are screwed here. Prediction. - All out for 100 before lunch.

    Don’t be so Nortje.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,517
    edited December 2019

    Sandpit said:

    Just catching up on yesterday’s story about Jo Maugham. Rather amusing to watch those who object profusely to rural farmers spending Boxing Day rounding up foxes, seem quite fine with an urban Remain supporter killing one himself. I wouldn’t usually say Remain supporter way out of context, but almost everyone defending him on Twitter has #FBPE and an EU flag in their screen name.

    (Yes, they’re vermin, which the countryside dwellers have been pointing out for more than two decades now. Badgers the same.)

    That's a bit harsh. Granted they're taking a long time to accept the referendum result, but we have to make allowances.
    Typical. Thick loony from the death cult having to resort to name calling

    :)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,427
    Interesting! And although it's difficult to work out the precise reasons for the Tory flop in this prime target seat it's important to try. It could well be that the seeds of the Labour landslide in May 2024 were sown here in Bedford.
  • Problems I shall accept: having more money than anticipated in my Ladbrokes account.

    Must've forgotten about a bet or two.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Or you have a bunch of people who voted for an anti-Semitic party because they thought it was an acceptable moral trade off if someone else voted LibDem elsewhere?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,813
    Charles said:

    Or you have a bunch of people who voted for an anti-Semitic party because they thought it was an acceptable moral trade off if someone else voted LibDem elsewhere?

    Some morals dem.....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369
    edited December 2019

    Mr. Sandpit, I think it was some time in 2018. Don't have a date (but I have started keeping note of bet receipt numbers, just in case that comes up).

    Yeah, I seem to recall it was just before the new cars tested in early 2018. Before we all realised that Hamilton had by far the fastest one again.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited December 2019

    Ongoing demographic changes seems very plausible to me as an occasional Bedford visitor.

    Interesting that the pb LibDems in Bedford all seem to have voted Labour.

    One of the consequences of this is that it makes it less likely Labour will ever adopt proportional representation.

    Why should they? In marginal seats, Labour get what they want, election after election, from the Libdems for nothing in return. Labour would be dumb to change all that.

    Meanwhile, the holier-than-thou LibDems will have to live with themselves for voting for the anti-semite party....

    (2019 suggests the LibDems aren't so much a party, more of a loose agglomeration of anti-Tories.)
    It is that the LibDems vote Labour for nothing in return that interests me. I think Tactical Voting and Tactical Voting websites in the end thwart the very electoral reform that the LibDems purport to want.

    By far the main beneficiary of tactical voting is the Labour Party -- so why would they ever want to change? If you get something for nothing, you want to keep the good things coming.

    It would be interesting to estimate how many seats Labour hold from antiTory tactical voting, and how many the LibDems hold. I suspect the latter number is zero.

    I could easily believe that Bedford was held by Labour on the LibDem tactical vote.

    Though I do think Bedford is trending safe Labour long-term, as Bedford become more like Luton.
  • Surely Bedford ceased to be a bellwether seat in 2017 and its certainly not a bellwether anymore after 2019?

    I fail to see how in 2017 Bedford voted "most in line with the country" when Labour gained the seat. It perhaps swung most in line but that's not the same thing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?

    A collaboration of mid-sized democracies

    Not the Holy Roman Empire 3.0
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,878

    Charles said:

    Or you have a bunch of people who voted for an anti-Semitic party because they thought it was an acceptable moral trade off if someone else voted LibDem elsewhere?

    Some morals dem.....
    If voting for a racist troubled you, you wouldn’t have voted Tory or Labour.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited December 2019
    Sandpit said:

    Just catching up on yesterday’s story about Jo Maugham. Rather amusing to watch those who object profusely to rural farmers spending Boxing Day rounding up foxes, seem quite fine with an urban Remain supporter killing one himself. I wouldn’t usually say Remain supporter way out of context, but almost everyone defending him on Twitter has #FBPE and an EU flag in their screen name.

    (Yes, they’re vermin, which the countryside dwellers have been pointing out for more than two decades now. Badgers the same.)

    You may want to make clear that the vermin comment refers to the foxes...

    I knew what you meant, but...
  • Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?

    Why European? There's democracies both sides of the North Atlantic (and elsewhere).
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,744
    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?

    More like some kind of treaty between the North Atlantic nations.
    In which European nations have zero strategic autonomy.
  • Mr. Sandpit, possibly, though I thought it was a bit later.

    Either way, Hamilton's wins were in the seventies and the price was clearly wrong.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Just catching up on yesterday’s story about Jo Maugham. Rather amusing to watch those who object profusely to rural farmers spending Boxing Day rounding up foxes, seem quite fine with an urban Remain supporter killing one himself. I wouldn’t usually say Remain supporter way out of context, but almost everyone defending him on Twitter has #FBPE and an EU flag in their screen name.

    (Yes, they’re vermin, which the countryside dwellers have been pointing out for more than two decades now. Badgers the same.)

    You may want to make clear that the vermin comment refers to the foxes...

    I knew what you meant, but...
    I know that farmers everywhere have hated the CAP for two decades or more, but the concept of a Remain supporter has only existed for about four years. :lol:
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172



    (2019 suggests the LibDems aren't so much a party, more of a loose agglomeration of anti-Tories.)

    But if that is all there is to the LibDems, then there is absolutely no reason for them to exist. They should obviously join the Labour Party.

    There is some sort of terrible mental befuddlement to the LibDems. The only possible reason for their existence is that they believe in something different to the Tories and the Labour party, something distinctive.

    But if your main motivation is just anti-Toryness, then the mere existence of the LibDems thwarts your main motivation, which is to ensure the Tories lose.

    Although I did not vote in 2019, I regularly vote for a small party and I never accept mere tactical arguments as a reason for me to change.

    That is because I believe in something definite, whereas most LibDems seem to me to believe in nothing, other than a vague anti-Toryness.

    In which case, the Labour party are right. These people should STFU and join Labour.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,255
    edited December 2019
    ydoethur said:

    England are screwed here. Prediction. - All out for 100 before lunch.

    You are as bad as southam observer.. doom and gloom.. i thought disastrr was afoot but 60 for 2 at lunch.
  • I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,191
    edited December 2019

    ydoethur said:

    England are screwed here. Prediction. - All out for 100 before lunch.

    You are as bad as southam observer.. doom and gloom.. i thought disastrr was afoot but 60 for 2 at lunch.
    Yehbbut Denly and Root will be out three overs after the resumption.

    Then Nortje will scythe through the tail.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,744

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    You are the only tory on here not to indulge in vice signalling on the matter so respect for that.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,255
    edited December 2019
    Dura_Ace said:

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    You are the only tory on here not to indulge in vice signalling on the matter so respect for that.
    Well foxes should be killed as they are cruel and vicious to other animals
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    Demographics.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 90,975
    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?

    Could be. But that's not the only way to do so as others have noted. There are great benefits to be had in the european dream, but people acting as though it's an inevitability or treating it as the only possible solution to any problem did a lot of harm for its cause, as it meant either the positives were not properly sold to people, or were oversold.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,926
    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    The likely rebalancing away from London is ironic with the PM a former mayor of the capital.
    I think the more ignorant the electorate was of Johnson's character and track record, the better the Tories did.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    Old white people have voted Tory like never before this election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,188
    edited December 2019
    Bedford is clearly no longer a bellwether seat but leans Labour, Welwyn Hatfield is now the key seat Labour need for a majority, 125th on the Labour target list.

    Welwyn Hatfield was also 53% Leave and 47% Remain, close to the English average Leave margin of victory of 53.38% Leave and 46.62% Remain in the EU referendum.

    Bedford though was only 51.8% Leave and 48.2% Remain ie more Remain than the English average.
    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/labour
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 90,975

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.
    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    Reading the last thread was hilarious. Its the sheer level of antipathy people have for a wild animal in the case of foxes that always gets me, it goes well beyond eliminating a pest into the realm of vicious personal hatred.

    I dont even have an issue with people who experience these things to take effort to eliminate a pest (although in reference to an rcs100 post, I do question the need to do so in fancy dress) and I cannot say for certain I would not take out an animal as it were if it were injured (though I could hardly complain if I was then punished if it is not legal) but people lose all perspective on foxes, they foam at the mouth practically - I've seen more nuancd views toward vermin in a Redwall book.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369
    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    The likely rebalancing away from London is ironic with the PM a former mayor of the capital.
    I think the more ignorant the electorate was of Johnson's character and track record, the better the Tories did.
    The other parties had a whole election campaign to say what they wanted about him personally (which has never backfired on politicians ever), but they chose instead to talk about wanting to stop Brexit - which turned out to be a massively unpopular position outside a rarefied London bubble.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,926
    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    So you are into homeopathy rather than surgery.. well its a view I suppose,.
    Theoretical physics.
    "permanent damage"might have been a better choice.
    This is a betting site: the odds of Corbyn getting a majority were negligible.
    Politics here is basically polarised with one lot undoing the other lot's work, with the LDs being accused of wishy-washyness and squeezed by the two extremes.
    Corbyn has pulled Johnson and the Tories over into centre-left territory with their Keynesian manifesto and focus on public services and infrastructure and lack of tax cuts.

    Apart from nationalisation of the railways, the Tory 2019 manifesto is quite similar to the Labour 2017 manifesto which was a Venezuelan communist disaster according to the Tories at the time.

    Corbyn, like Farage, has achieved a lot in setting the political agenda without achieving power.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,032
    edited December 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    Demographics.

    Deleted... Replied to wrong post!
  • Dura_Ace said:

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    You are the only tory on here not to indulge in vice signalling on the matter so respect for that.
    Well foxes should be killed as they are cruel and vicious to other animals
    I would not argue about the rights and wrongs of killing foxes, just that where it is necessary it must be done humanely.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?

    Could be. But that's not the only way to do so as others have noted. There are great benefits to be had in the european dream, but people acting as though it's an inevitability or treating it as the only possible solution to any problem did a lot of harm for its cause, as it meant either the positives were not properly sold to people, or were oversold.
    No matter what the problem, the solution is always "More Europe". How could that possibly go wrong?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 90,975
    Barnesian said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    So you are into homeopathy rather than surgery.. well its a view I suppose,.
    Theoretical physics.
    "permanent damage"might have been a better choice.
    This is a betting site: the odds of Corbyn getting a majority were negligible.
    Politics here is basically polarised with one lot undoing the other lot's work, with the LDs being accused of wishy-washyness and squeezed by the two extremes.
    Corbyn has pulled Johnson and the Tories over into centre-left territory with their Keynesian manifesto and focus on public services and infrastructure and lack of tax cuts.

    Apart from nationalisation of the railways, the Tory 2019 manifesto is quite similar to the Labour 2017 manifesto which was a Venezuelan communist disaster according to the Tories at the time.

    Corbyn, like Farage, has achieved a lot in setting the political agenda without achieving power.
    And yet they dont seem happy with that accomplishment somehow so I think it pretty risible should anyone big up that line of thinking.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    You are the only tory on here not to indulge in vice signalling on the matter so respect for that.
    Well foxes should be killed as they are cruel and vicious to other animals
    If that's the benchmark, then we should all set about each with baseball bats.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 90,975
    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    The likely rebalancing away from London is ironic with the PM a former mayor of the capital.
    I think the more ignorant the electorate was of Johnson's character and track record, the better the Tories did.
    How ignorant could people possibly be, we heard little else from his opponents, for good reason.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,431
    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    y0u Tories are all heart
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 90,975
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650?s=19

    Some kind of Union of European nations you say?

    Could be. But that's not the only way to do so as others have noted. There are great benefits to be had in the european dream, but people acting as though it's an inevitability or treating it as the only possible solution to any problem did a lot of harm for its cause, as it meant either the positives were not properly sold to people, or were oversold.
    No matter what the problem, the solution is always "More Europe". How could that possibly go wrong?
    Your question may be ironic but I do suspect the fiddling around unnecessarily on that has been a major factor. When it is the answer to every problem it means its accepted or rejected as a creed, rather than actually considered if appropriate, meaning overuse as a solution on issues it has not really helped means even when it would be a good solution some no longer listen.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,517

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    There is something pretty weird about someone who boasts of smashing up a trapped animal, or any animal really, with a baseball bat. Self defence would be the only mitigation in my opinion
  • isam said:

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    There is something pretty weird about someone who boasts of smashing up a trapped animal, or any animal really, with a baseball bat. Self defence would be the only mitigation in my opinion
    Something odd about even owning a baseball bat.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,191
    edited December 2019
    Barnesian said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    So you are into homeopathy rather than surgery.. well its a view I suppose,.
    Theoretical physics.
    "permanent damage"might have been a better choice.
    This is a betting site: the odds of Corbyn getting a majority were negligible.
    Politics here is basically polarised with one lot undoing the other lot's work, with the LDs being accused of wishy-washyness and squeezed by the two extremes.
    Corbyn has pulled Johnson and the Tories over into centre-left territory with their Keynesian manifesto and focus on public services and infrastructure and lack of tax cuts.

    Apart from nationalisation of the railways, the Tory 2019 manifesto is quite similar to the Labour 2017 manifesto which was a Venezuelan communist disaster according to the Tories at the time.

    Corbyn, like Farage, has achieved a lot in setting the political agenda without achieving power.
    Really? I missed the bit where the Tories promised to abolish tuition fees, made an off the cuff commitment to wipe out student debt, said that they would bring all schools under direct state control and tax private schools out of business, bring in rent controls and licenses for private landlords, outlaw zero hours contracts, nationalise power, water and the postal service, and force companies to appoint employees to their boards.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,878
    isam said:

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    There is something pretty weird about someone who boasts of smashing up a trapped animal, or any animal really, with a baseball bat. Self defence would be the only mitigation in my opinion
    Well, Liverpool appear to have handed out something of a beating to a group of foxes last night.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,926
    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    So you are into homeopathy rather than surgery.. well its a view I suppose,.
    Theoretical physics.
    "permanent damage"might have been a better choice.
    This is a betting site: the odds of Corbyn getting a majority were negligible.
    Politics here is basically polarised with one lot undoing the other lot's work, with the LDs being accused of wishy-washyness and squeezed by the two extremes.
    Corbyn has pulled Johnson and the Tories over into centre-left territory with their Keynesian manifesto and focus on public services and infrastructure and lack of tax cuts.

    Apart from nationalisation of the railways, the Tory 2019 manifesto is quite similar to the Labour 2017 manifesto which was a Venezuelan communist disaster according to the Tories at the time.

    Corbyn, like Farage, has achieved a lot in setting the political agenda without achieving power.
    And yet they dont seem happy with that accomplishment somehow so I think it pretty risible should anyone big up that line of thinking.
    Labour are still in shock and denial.

    It would be hard for them to give the Tories credit for a Labour economic manifesto (though Farage has done that for the Tory Brexit manifesto).

    If I were Labour leader, I would congratulate the Tories for their economic manifesto, point out it was borrowed from the Labour 2017 manifesto, and promise to hold them to account on delivering it.

    I would say to the electorate "If you want Labour policies delivered, vote Labour. As you can see, you can't trust the Tories to deliver Labour policies".

    If the Tories DO deliver their Labour manifesto, then all is good and we have a rebadged Labour party. Labour don't need a new leader. They have Johnson.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,552
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    y0u Tories are all heart
    Why reward those who refuse to vote for us?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,191
    edited December 2019
    isam said:

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    There is something pretty weird about someone who boasts of smashing up a trapped animal, or any animal really, with a baseball bat. Self defence would be the only mitigation in my opinion
    I don’t understand why he put it on Twitter. He’s all over the front page of every national newspaper (next to Pippa Middleton in the briefest bikini she could find, of course) and the RSPCA have seen an opportunity to go on a fundraising spree lecture about animal welfare (even though they don’t care at all about it).

    What an utter fool. He should have remembered the first rule of law - ‘don’t say anything!’
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,908
    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    So you are into homeopathy rather than surgery.. well its a view I suppose,.
    Theoretical physics.
    "permanent damage"might have been a better choice.
    This is a betting site: the odds of Corbyn getting a majority were negligible.
    Politics here is basically polarised with one lot undoing the other lot's work, with the LDs being accused of wishy-washyness and squeezed by the two extremes.
    Corbyn has pulled Johnson and the Tories over into centre-left territory with their Keynesian manifesto and focus on public services and infrastructure and lack of tax cuts.

    Apart from nationalisation of the railways, the Tory 2019 manifesto is quite similar to the Labour 2017 manifesto which was a Venezuelan communist disaster according to the Tories at the time.

    Corbyn, like Farage, has achieved a lot in setting the political agenda without achieving power.
    Really? I missed the bit where the Tories promised to abolish tuition fees, made an off the cuff commitment to wipe out student debt, said that they would bring all schools under direct state control and tax private schools out of business, bring in rent controls and licenses for private landlords, outlaw zero hours contracts, nationalise power, water and the postal service, and force companies to appoint employees to their boards.
    Yeah, it's nothing like Labour's 2017 manifesto...
  • So the FBPE story ends - as all great heroic narratives do - with Will Hutton hosting a candlelit vigil, a Led By Donkeys coffee table book, and Jolyon Maugham in a kimono, bludgeoning a fox to death

    — Dan Hancox (@danhancox) December 27, 2019
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,369

    isam said:

    I totally oppose foxhunting and all cruelty to animals.

    Maugham needs to be investigated for animal cruelty.

    There is something pretty weird about someone who boasts of smashing up a trapped animal, or any animal really, with a baseball bat. Self defence would be the only mitigation in my opinion
    Something odd about even owning a baseball bat.
    Maybe he's a keen baseball player?

    (Friend of mine used to carry a baseball and mitt in his car, so that if the police asked what the bat was for, he could say he was coming back from baseball practice ;) )
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,878
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    y0u Tories are all heart
    Is this how Boris, ‘a one-nation Tory at heart’, will set about bringing the nation together?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,191
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    y0u Tories are all heart
    Why reward those who refuse to vote for us?
    An attitude shared by both parties that has been steadily tearing the demos of this country apart since 1945.

    It is of course unusual for Labour to decide they will refuse to reward not only those who don’t vote for them, but those who do as well. But entirely typical of their earlier core vote strategies under Miliband and Brown.
  • RobCRobC Posts: 398
    Canterbury is another seat that defied expectations. There I think Rosie Duffield benefited from the factor Mike talked about i.e. first time incumbents getting a bonus at the general election following the one when they were elected for the first time. Julian Brazier dismissed in 2017 was reactionary and indolent and voters have appreciated their new surprisingly empathetic and diligent MP.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,191
    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    Our "remain" Bedford household (thinking about the world outside little Britain) , acting on the basis that Brexit is self-harming and will leave permanent scars, took the best tactical advice and voted Labour in spite of our loathing for Corbyn.

    and you didn't think Corbyn was harmful? Amazing.
    I try to choose my words carefully.
    Key here is the phrase " permanent scars".
    So you are into homeopathy rather than surgery.. well its a view I suppose,.
    Theoretical physics.
    "permanent damage"might have been a better choice.
    This is a betting site: the odds of Corbyn getting a majority were negligible.
    Politics here is basically polarised with one lot undoing the other lot's work, with the LDs being accused of wishy-washyness and squeezed by the two extremes.
    Corbyn has pulled Johnson and the Tories over into centre-left territory with their Keynesian manifesto and focus on public services and infrastructure and lack of tax cuts.

    Apart from nationalisation of the railways, the Tory 2019 manifesto is quite similar to the Labour 2017 manifesto which was a Venezuelan communist disaster according to the Tories at the time.

    Corbyn, like Farage, has achieved a lot in setting the political agenda without achieving power.
    Really? I missed the bit where the Tories promised to abolish tuition fees, made an off the cuff commitment to wipe out student debt, said that they would bring all schools under direct state control and tax private schools out of business, bring in rent controls and licenses for private landlords, outlaw zero hours contracts, nationalise power, water and the postal service, and force companies to appoint employees to their boards.
    Yeah, it's nothing like Labour's 2017 manifesto...
    There is one key similarity - increased borrowing to spend on bribing electors to vote for them again‘infrastructure.’ But it’s on nothing like the scale Labour proposed. Nor do their taxation or spending priorities match up.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,926
    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully Bedford gets left out of the new funding model being put together by the treasury.

    It's going to be interesting to see how Labour react to money being diverted to their former heartlands and the expense of the their new inner city ones. Do they support it as a necessary measure to fix inequality or they stand up for their new middle class voters?

    The likely rebalancing away from London is ironic with the PM a former mayor of the capital.
    I think the more ignorant the electorate was of Johnson's character and track record, the better the Tories did.
    How ignorant could people possibly be, we heard little else from his opponents, for good reason.
    We heard very little about his track record as Mayor (except what he said), as Foreign Secretary, being fired for lying as a journalist etc and it wouldn't cut through anyway.

    To your average northern working class bloke, he was good ol' Boris, getting Brexit sorted, offering goodies and making them smile.
This discussion has been closed.