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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris would be making a big mistake denying Bercow a peerage

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    MattW said:

    I think I would agree that waiting the outcome of the bullying enquiry suppressed by Bercow is a pragmatic way ahead.

    OTOH the last couple of speakers - including Bercow - have hardly been stellar.

    We already have crooks, industrial scale expenses fiddlers, useless oafs, jailbirds and liars in the Lords, so why not add a pompous little self-obsessed tosspot to complete the collection? It will add even more colour.

    Happy Christmas, everyone !

    John Prescott has already been ennobled.
  • Meanwhile, the same people who tell us that it would be utterly unacceptable for Oliver Letwin to get a peerage will no doubt be entirely chill with Steve Baker and Mark Francois being ennobled when the time comes. It wouldn't even occur to them that Jacob Rees-Mogg might be a controversial appointment.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814
    edited December 2019
    It is also fair to say though that Bercow broke a fair few precedents going back centuries.

    That said, give him one if he wants it. It seems a bit mean-spirited otherwise and it’s not like he can do much harm on the red benches.

    EDIT: what I would say though, along with the other ‘happenings’ around the granting of peerages (Morgan and Goldsmith, the lack thereof for Ken Clarke) is that there needs to be root and branch reform of the House of Lords. The fact we expect these baubles to be handed out goes to show how broken the system is.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/bbc-election-night-and-systemic-media-bias/

    This is enjoyably angry from two idiots at the LSE. No wonder it's gone downhill if they employ people like this.

    That really is tosh but I do find it frustrating that they are quite so coy about vote shares in their projections. It clearly is a deliberate policy not to disclose them and I don't really understand why.
    Because national vote shares are close to irrelevant in terms of what actually happens on election night?

    Take Scotland, for example. Margin of error of even +/- 1% in SNP vote is the difference between them taking every Scottish seat, and none of them.

    And the Lib Dems just increased vote share by 50% and lost seats. In 2017 they lost vote share and gained seats. In 2010 they gained vote share and lost seats.
    It's so simple even an academic should get it...
    The other people in the train carriage are wondering why I laughed out loud... :)

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Corbyn's Christmas message is the perfect encapsulaiton of why Labour lost the election so heavily. It essentially accuses the majority of voters of not being as kind and as compasionate as he is, while failing to acknowledge any kind of Christmas joy and portraying the UK as a land of unremitting misery. He is, as he has done since he became leader, talking at the electorate, rather than to it.

    Until Labour understands that peope and the world are complex, that you can be opposed to public services cuts and homelessness, while also aspiring to a better life for you and your family and enjoying Christmas even though not everyone does (for example), it has no hope of winning power.

    I have not seen Johnson's message - and will do my very best to avoid it - but I bet it is diametrically opposed in tone and spirit to Cobyn's/ And I know which one most people will relate to better.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1209379431124353024

    You really should watch Boris's Happy Hanukkah piece. It might add to the despair, but at least give you a better appreciation of what you are up against.

    It's not just Corbyn. Try to imagine any of the front runners for leadership delivering that piece.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721

    I object to Bercow's peerage until a full and independent investigation into bullying in the HOC has been completed and published

    No other reason

    Gone are the days when oppressing the peasants entitled a place in the Lords.
  • Corbyn's Christmas message is the perfect encapsulaiton of why Labour lost the election so heavily. It essentially accuses the majority of voters of not being as kind and as compasionate as he is, while failing to acknowledge any kind of Christmas joy and portraying the UK as a land of unremitting misery. He is, as he has done since he became leader, talking at the electorate, rather than to it.

    Until Labour understands that peope and the world are complex, that you can be opposed to public services cuts and homelessness, while also aspiring to a better life for you and your family and enjoying Christmas even though not everyone does (for example), it has no hope of winning power.

    I have not seen Johnson's message - and will do my very best to avoid it - but I bet it is diametrically opposed in tone and spirit to Cobyn's/ And I know which one most people will relate to better.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1209379431124353024

    More humbug. It took Corbyn et al all of 2 minutes to reflect on the GE result, and that was only in terms of "how best can we use the GE result to maintain our iron grip on the party?"
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    Foxy said:

    I object to Bercow's peerage until a full and independent investigation into bullying in the HOC has been completed and published

    No other reason

    Gone are the days when oppressing the peasants entitled a place in the Lords.
    I'm not too sure about that... :(
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Any word on @JohnO's dukedom?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    timmo said:

    Where is the PB Christmas crossword?

    Insatiable. :D

    Usually posted on Christmas Day itself, I believe.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212

    Corbyn's Christmas message is the perfect encapsulaiton of why Labour lost the election so heavily. It essentially accuses the majority of voters of not being as kind and as compasionate as he is, while failing to acknowledge any kind of Christmas joy and portraying the UK as a land of unremitting misery. He is, as he has done since he became leader, talking at the electorate, rather than to it.

    Until Labour understands that peope and the world are complex, that you can be opposed to public services cuts and homelessness, while also aspiring to a better life for you and your family and enjoying Christmas even though not everyone does (for example), it has no hope of winning power.

    I have not seen Johnson's message - and will do my very best to avoid it - but I bet it is diametrically opposed in tone and spirit to Cobyn's/ And I know which one most people will relate to better.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1209379431124353024

    More humbug. It took Corbyn et al all of 2 minutes to reflect on the GE result, and that was only in terms of "how best can we use the GE result to maintain our iron grip on the party?"
    You're precisely the sort of 'Labour in normal times' voter that's completely repulsed by Corbyn if I remember your leanings correctly, no ?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Do you not think Lindsay Hoyle may have an interest in ensuring that the tradition that Speakers get peerages is maintained? Conflicted much?

    It is typical of LibDems that ostensibly they are in favour of radical change (reform of HoL), but in practice they never are. They want the status quo as much as any Tory. More so, often enough.

    It was exactly the same with Welsh seats the other day, with a prominent pb.com LibDem bleating that it was unfair. Reform of the Welsh seats goes hand in hand with devolving more and more power to Cardiff.

    Basically, you either want to devolve power locally and reform. Or you want to maintain and sustain the existing institutions.

    LibDems always talk the first but walk the second. Thank the Lord they got the beating they so richly deserved.
  • Completely off topic, would anyone like to volunteer to co-author a thread with me? It will require a LOT of research and while I have time for half of what is required, I definitely don't have the time for all of what is required.

    Plus points: you will get equal billing; this is not the type of article where you need to agree with my political views at all; it should be quite interesting to work on; it gives you an excuse not to socialise with family over Christmas.

    Minus points: the salary is nil; it will be time-consuming.

    With that in mind, any takers? First come first served.
  • Meanwhile, the same people who tell us that it would be utterly unacceptable for Oliver Letwin to get a peerage will no doubt be entirely chill with Steve Baker and Mark Francois being ennobled when the time comes. It wouldn't even occur to them that Jacob Rees-Mogg might be a controversial appointment.

    I would be very happy to see Steve Baker out of Parliament entirely. If I had known the polls were broadly correct then I would not have voted for him this time.
    In fact, given the demographic changes in Wycombe, I would say he is in serious danger of losing his seat next time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    It is possible Farage could get a gong but not Bercow
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    edited December 2019

    Meanwhile, the same people who tell us that it would be utterly unacceptable for Oliver Letwin to get a peerage will no doubt be entirely chill with Steve Baker and Mark Francois being ennobled when the time comes. It wouldn't even occur to them that Jacob Rees-Mogg might be a controversial appointment.

    I would be very happy to see Steve Baker out of Parliament entirely. If I had known the polls were broadly correct then I would not have voted for him this time.
    In fact, given the demographic changes in Wycombe, I would say he is in serious danger of losing his seat next time.
    Gaining Bledlow and Stokenchurch helps him out if the boundary review goes through...

    More importantly I have a betslip on him at 100-1 for next Tory leader...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,254

    Endillion said:

    The question which all the loony Leavers on thread completely flunk is who are the political opponents they would be happy to see ennobled. NB "political opponents" for this purpose means those who are not within the Leaver circle of trust (so answers like Gisela Stuart don't count).

    Nick Clegg, when the time comes, although he's blotted his copybook a bit by going off to work for Facebook. Vince Cable, I guess, as well.

    Philip Hammond I wouldn't object to. David Lidington. Tom Watson no, but only because of his involvement in the Carl Beech affair.

    Is it cheating to say Gordon Brown?
    Interesting you mention Nick Clegg. He was a hate figure in 2017 and all the mad Leavers were objecting to him even getting a knighthood. But now they've moved onto new hate figures.

    I expect Ken Clarke, Oliver Letwin et al will all be tolerated once the revolution has found new children to eat.
    Clegg is still something of a hate figure amongst some more tribal Libdems.

    "Coalition Taint" is a condition like the plague in some circles.

    (Ignore that the tuition fees promise was wished on him by the same people :-) .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019

    David Duckinfield being found not guilty at the end of November didn’t help the Tories in Liverpool.

    Boris Johnson’s publication of that article didn’t help the Tories in Liverpool.

    Ironically the most popular Tory in Liverpool is Dominic Grieve.

    Labour even won Liverpool in the European elections when they got just 14% nationwide, the Tories could win a Blair 1997 style landslide and still lose Liverpool
  • Pulpstar said:

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    Suggestion on Twitter that the absence of The Sun is the root cause.

    Is there any discrepancy once you account for general demographic factors? How great is it?

    The Tories now have an MP that represents Orgreave, for all intents and purposes the historical mining link to Labour is on it's last legs if not completely dead. The reason Labour still has strength along the M62 belt is deprivation (Wigan, Makerfield) and the fact austerity hit these towns hard.

    But Liverpool is Labour way beyond its relative deprivation, BAME vote graduate % or urban character suggests it should be. I think it is the Sun and the reason for the Sun being banned - the Hillsborough disaster reinforced the Chernobyl like status the Tories have had in that part of the country.
    Also Corbyn's particular strand of Labour is very well liked there - Kinnock's speech was aimed against Hatton and co iirc.
    The interesting question is not why the Tories are so unpopular in Liverpool but why no other party seems to challenge either. Lab's 5 safest seats are all in Merseyside - Walton, Knowsley, Bootle, Riverside and West Derby. Wavertree is 11th safest and Garston 18th safest
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    FF43 said:

    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
    Actually we got the most votes among working people. Also, pensions are deferred income. People have paid into them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Foxy said:

    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Now Brexit is done, it's interesting that the nativists are returning to fine British hate figures rather than poor old Tusk, Barnier etc. I'm sure the moment BJ is thwarted in getting the shitload of post Brexit stuff done that needs to be done, normal service will be resumed.
    Interesting that the hate figures include two of Jewish heritage. Perhaps the wrong sort of One Nation Toryism...
    Bercow is Jewish?!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Not much love for Prime Minister Jo Swinson there....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,361
    TGOHF666 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
    says it all about this country when arseholes like him are considered for "honours". I doubt if ever a word has been so misused. Most countries would jail them or tar and feather them
    Disgraceful that other parties who actually had MPs have had their ex leaders overlooked..
    Real parties would refuse their baubles Harry , pity their is only one principled party on this island.
  • RobD said:

    timmo said:

    Where is the PB Christmas crossword?

    Insatiable. :D

    Usually posted on Christmas Day itself, I believe.
    The Christmas Crossword will be published in the early hours of The next Christmas day. Thanks again to St John for producing it.

    This is as much as Xmas tradition as the Queen's Xmas day morning Xmas message
  • Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Yes give him one.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    edited December 2019
    One thing which the election has done is that is has finally put the ghost of Thatcher to rest.

    Her salience for modern day politics, and as a rallying cry for both pro and anti forces is now no longer present. The tories won many ex-mining seats, and seats in which people have cursed her name for decades.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,254
    TGOHF666 said:

    More shamefully it seems Cummings and BoJo have decided to not give Ken Clarke a peerage.

    Pour encourages Les autres.

    Can anyone name any other PM bar Blair who willingly gave peerages to sworn enemies ?
    I think probably all of them.

    I was thinking of Mrs T and the Wets, but she also ennobled some TU leaders iirc.

    Cameron of course did Jenny Jones, but he may have been virtue-signalling. Also Dawwn Primarolo and Peter Hain.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    Corbyn's Christmas message is the perfect encapsulaiton of why Labour lost the election so heavily. It essentially accuses the majority of voters of not being as kind and as compasionate as he is, while failing to acknowledge any kind of Christmas joy and portraying the UK as a land of unremitting misery. He is, as he has done since he became leader, talking at the electorate, rather than to it.

    Until Labour understands that peope and the world are complex, that you can be opposed to public services cuts and homelessness, while also aspiring to a better life for you and your family and enjoying Christmas even though not everyone does (for example), it has no hope of winning power.

    I have not seen Johnson's message - and will do my very best to avoid it - but I bet it is diametrically opposed in tone and spirit to Cobyn's/ And I know which one most people will relate to better.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1209379431124353024

    'Christmas is a time to listen and reflect' on the part of the voters as to why they were wrong, while we elect Rebecca Long-Bailey to give them another chance to get it right next time
  • Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
    What success?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Now Brexit is done, it's interesting that the nativists are returning to fine British hate figures rather than poor old Tusk, Barnier etc. I'm sure the moment BJ is thwarted in getting the shitload of post Brexit stuff done that needs to be done, normal service will be resumed.
    Interesting that the hate figures include two of Jewish heritage. Perhaps the wrong sort of One Nation Toryism...
    Bercow is Jewish?!
    Angliised from Berkowitz. His father was Jewish, his mother a Jewish convert.
  • TGOHF666 said:

    Boris should give one to Bercow, Grieve, Clarke and Stormzy.

    And Jo Swinson.

    Definitely not Jo Swinson, she's the female Hitler.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,361

    Corbyn's Christmas message is the perfect encapsulaiton of why Labour lost the election so heavily. It essentially accuses the majority of voters of not being as kind and as compasionate as he is, while failing to acknowledge any kind of Christmas joy and portraying the UK as a land of unremitting misery. He is, as he has done since he became leader, talking at the electorate, rather than to it.

    Until Labour understands that peope and the world are complex, that you can be opposed to public services cuts and homelessness, while also aspiring to a better life for you and your family and enjoying Christmas even though not everyone does (for example), it has no hope of winning power.

    I have not seen Johnson's message - and will do my very best to avoid it - but I bet it is diametrically opposed in tone and spirit to Cobyn's/ And I know which one most people will relate to better.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1209379431124353024

    The sooner Corbyn clears off to his allotment the better everyone will be and I know it is Christmas
    G, Hopefully Johnson will be marooned in Mustique and we will have seen the back of him, that would be doing the country a service
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Now Brexit is done, it's interesting that the nativists are returning to fine British hate figures rather than poor old Tusk, Barnier etc. I'm sure the moment BJ is thwarted in getting the shitload of post Brexit stuff done that needs to be done, normal service will be resumed.
    Interesting that the hate figures include two of Jewish heritage. Perhaps the wrong sort of One Nation Toryism...
    Bercow is Jewish?!
    Angliised from Berkowitz. His father was Jewish, his mother a Jewish convert.
    Well just goes to show being a minority is no bar to being an arsehole. 🤷‍♂️
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    RobD said:

    timmo said:

    Where is the PB Christmas crossword?

    Insatiable. :D

    Usually posted on Christmas Day itself, I believe.
    The Christmas Crossword will be published in the early hours of The next Christmas day. Thanks again to St John for producing it.

    This is as much as Xmas tradition as the Queen's Xmas day morning Xmas message
    Corbyn has already finished it, apart from 59 down.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
  • Completely off topic, would anyone like to volunteer to co-author a thread with me? It will require a LOT of research and while I have time for half of what is required, I definitely don't have the time for all of what is required.

    Plus points: you will get equal billing; this is not the type of article where you need to agree with my political views at all; it should be quite interesting to work on; it gives you an excuse not to socialise with family over Christmas.

    Minus points: the salary is nil; it will be time-consuming.

    With that in mind, any takers? First come first served.

    Research into what sort of thing?

    Of vague relevance to the previous thread, Churchill (the real one) used to run teams of specialist historians to provide research for his great works.
  • No ex MP should get an automatic "honour". The whole system wants bringing down.

    Apart from Gerry Adams, lol.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,361

    timmo said:

    Where is the PB Christmas crossword?

    Tomorrow.
    Clue is in the name I would have thought
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212

    TGOHF666 said:

    Boris should give one to Bercow, Grieve, Clarke and Stormzy.

    And Jo Swinson.

    Definitely not Jo Swinson, she's the female Hitler.
    I think that comparison is incorrect, to put it err mildly.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    FF43 said:

    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
    Lol - well put!
  • Pulpstar said:

    nunu2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    I like the way you said "Social Democrat landslides" and not simply the Labour landslides.
    I haven't seen much love for Labour amongst my graduate friends - who do now represent their core vote having forgone their traditional vote in the north. Primarily it is "Who can stop the Tories"
    Change UK was obviously a failure but I'm not certain the Labour brand survives long term with the way it is. Ian Murray leaving would spell curtains for them in Scotland (I think he could hold Edinburgh South as an independent). If he decides to go that is Scotland lost forever to Labour.
    Send Colum Eastwood to Scotland, problem solved.
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Now Brexit is done, it's interesting that the nativists are returning to fine British hate figures rather than poor old Tusk, Barnier etc. I'm sure the moment BJ is thwarted in getting the shitload of post Brexit stuff done that needs to be done, normal service will be resumed.
    Interesting that the hate figures include two of Jewish heritage. Perhaps the wrong sort of One Nation Toryism...
    Bercow is Jewish?!
    Angliised from Berkowitz. His father was Jewish, his mother a Jewish convert.
    Well just goes to show being a minority is no bar to being an arsehole. 🤷‍♂️
    So true..
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    FF43 said:

    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
    Lol - well put!
    Except it's wrong. Hopefully Labour attitudes are like yours and we keep winning with working people and your party is put into the dustbin of history where it belongs along with communism.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,361
    kle4 said:

    No ex MP should get an automatic "honour". The whole system wants bringing down.

    Being a peer is a lot more than merely being given an honour, which is just a bauble, albeit one which can recognise great worth. A peerage grants a person a measure of legislative authoritative over this country, for life in most cases, and definitely should not be used as a reward for failure or a nice retirement package. It is very very serious.

    Now, many would do away with such a systems we have it at all which is fair enough, but while we still have it the principle that our legislative processes will benefit from the inclusion of people who hold or have held particular positions is not i think unreasonable, and I would suggest Speaker of the House of Commons is one such position. Even if it is Bercow.

    If the whole system is to be ripped up, sure, but until it is I think this convention is one that should be maintained.

    Who knows - his actions once elevated might well hasten its end
    It grants some useless twunts 300 a day plus expenses. Just a con.
  • One thing which the election has done is that is has finally put the ghost of Thatcher to rest.

    Her salience for modern day politics, and as a rallying cry for both pro and anti forces is now no longer present. The tories won many ex-mining seats, and seats in which people have cursed her name for decades.

    Iron lady was the devil in disguise.
  • Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Boris should give one to Bercow, Grieve, Clarke and Stormzy.

    And Jo Swinson.

    Definitely not Jo Swinson, she's the female Hitler.
    I think that comparison is incorrect, to put it err mildly.
    She wants to use nuclear weapons, perhaps she's more like the Korean leader?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    FF43 said:

    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
    Yup - that's me 34 years of working without claiming a thing - paying taxes, pension contributions and national insurance. I clearly should be taken out and shot along with all my other fellow idlers. BTW i'm still paying more tax every month than all the other sh*tes you're so fond of.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
    says it all about this country when arseholes like him are considered for "honours". I doubt if ever a word has been so misused. Most countries would jail them or tar and feather them
    Always trust a Nat to be nasty.
    You really are utterly lacking in self awareness.
  • @Pulpstar

    She doesn't deserve to become a MBE, OBE etc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    FF43 said:

    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
    That was true in 2017 when the tipping point when you were more likely to vote Tory than Labour was 47, it was not true in 2019 when the tipping point when you were more likely to vote Tory than Labour was 39.


    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election

    There are 26 years between 39 and 65 but only 21 years between 18 and 39.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Meanwhile, the same people who tell us that it would be utterly unacceptable for Oliver Letwin to get a peerage will no doubt be entirely chill with Steve Baker and Mark Francois being ennobled when the time comes. It wouldn't even occur to them that Jacob Rees-Mogg might be a controversial appointment.

    Anything that adds to your sense of grievance gotta be a good thing.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,361

    One thing which the election has done is that is has finally put the ghost of Thatcher to rest.

    Her salience for modern day politics, and as a rallying cry for both pro and anti forces is now no longer present. The tories won many ex-mining seats, and seats in which people have cursed her name for decades.

    Iron lady was the devil in disguise.
    very thinly disguised indeed
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,361
    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
    says it all about this country when arseholes like him are considered for "honours". I doubt if ever a word has been so misused. Most countries would jail them or tar and feather them
    Always trust a Nat to be nasty.
    You really are utterly lacking in self awareness.
    Always trust a Tory to be a nasty whinging erse
  • Boris has to be careful here. Bercow is the Leavers' ultimate bogeyman, surpassing even Grieve, Soubry and Gina Miller. Boris is lord of all he surveys at present, but if the politics start to chill the peasants will be at his throat in a jiffy if he looks to be creeping back to the old ways and dishing out baubles to the liberal elite. Boris's bedrock doesn't consist of gentleman players who are impressed by abiding by the rules. I suspect Dom understands this and will guide Boris accordingly.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) and housing will eventually be what drives the Tories out of power. All the help to buy stuff has done is keep housing prices artificially high for too long, and the huge number of properties sold as leasehold these days is a ticking timebomb without comprehensive leasehold reform (something Scotland has led the way on).

  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    As Mike has confirmed, the PB Xmas Crossword is “oven ready” and will be served tomorrow. It’s a cracker!
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    FF43 said:

    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
    Tory-voting pensioners are, on the whole, people who had jobs, whose children have jobs, and who hope that their grandchildren and great grandchildren will in the future have jobs.

    Might I suggest that one of the more subtle failings of Labour's campaign was to assume that voters take an overtly transactional approach to politics. The various bribes failed to land, because voters a) generally don't believe the promises made and/or b) take a broader and longer term view of things. More aspiration, less palm greasing needed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    timmo said:

    Where is the PB Christmas crossword?

    Insatiable. :D

    Usually posted on Christmas Day itself, I believe.
    The Christmas Crossword will be published in the early hours of The next Christmas day. Thanks again to St John for producing it.

    This is as much as Xmas tradition as the Queen's Xmas day morning Xmas message
    Corbyn has already finished it, apart from 59 down.....
    60, surely? :D
  • stjohn said:

    As Mike has confirmed, the PB Xmas Crossword is “oven ready” and will be served tomorrow. It’s a cracker!

    That's a cracking joke!
  • Remember folks, be weary of hairdressers and barbers because they talk behind your back.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) and housing will eventually be what drives the Tories out of power. All the help to buy stuff has done is keep housing prices artificially high for too long, and the huge number of properties sold as leasehold these days is a ticking timebomb without comprehensive leasehold reform (something Scotland has led the way on).

    Tenants will need housing benefit for ~20 years after they retire. The basic state pension is £8,800/year but the market rent of a house in say Worcester seems to be £7,000/year
    https://www.home.co.uk/for_rent/worcester/current_rents?location=worcester

    I call that quite a loudly-ticking timebomb, i.e. to add to the leasehold scandal.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019
    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) and housing will eventually be what drives the Tories out of power. All the help to buy stuff has done is keep housing prices artificially high for too long, and the huge number of properties sold as leasehold these days is a ticking timebomb without comprehensive leasehold reform (something Scotland has led the way on).

    That is not really true, given the age at which most have bought their first property is still 34, with help to buy helping ensure younger people can buy and the Tories are also reducing the student loan interest rate. The Tories also made clear in their manifesto they would ban new leasehold houses, though still allowing leasehold flats (inevitably as flats cannot be brought freehold unless you buy the whole block, though even there commonhold is becoming more common).

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/milestonesjourneyingintoadulthood/2019-02-18

    If the Tories win the next general election they will be in office for about 20 years, a historic, unprecedented period of power unsurpassed since the expansion of the franchise, yet no party can be in power for ever
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Endillion said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
    Tory-voting pensioners are, on the whole, people who had jobs, whose children have jobs, and who hope that their grandchildren and great grandchildren will in the future have jobs.

    Might I suggest that one of the more subtle failings of Labour's campaign was to assume that voters take an overtly transactional approach to politics. The various bribes failed to land, because voters a) generally don't believe the promises made and/or b) take a broader and longer term view of things. More aspiration, less palm greasing needed.
    The "we're not transactional" argument might be more convincing if the group in question hadn't benefited so much from those transactions?

    I'm not proposing age warfare or that older people are intrinsically nastier or more selfish. (I'm heading to that category myself). People get what they can out of the system. Older people have been more successful at doing that than younger people, at the relative expense of those younger people. There is a generational unfairness.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
    says it all about this country when arseholes like him are considered for "honours". I doubt if ever a word has been so misused. Most countries would jail them or tar and feather them
    Always trust a Nat to be nasty.
    You really are utterly lacking in self awareness.
    Always trust a Tory to be a nasty whinging erse
    You. Have. No. Self. Awareness.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) and housing will eventually be what drives the Tories out of power. All the help to buy stuff has done is keep housing prices artificially high for too long, and the huge number of properties sold as leasehold these days is a ticking timebomb without comprehensive leasehold reform (something Scotland has led the way on).

    Tenants will need housing benefit for ~20 years after they retire. The basic state pension is £8,800/year but the market rent of a house in say Worcester seems to be £7,000/year
    https://www.home.co.uk/for_rent/worcester/current_rents?location=worcester

    I call that quite a loudly-ticking timebomb, i.e. to add to the leasehold scandal.
    Not really, given most renters already vote Labour anyway and the vast majority of over 65s own their own property
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    No ex MP should get an automatic "honour". The whole system wants bringing down.

    Being a peer is a lot more than merely being given an honour, which is just a bauble, albeit one which can recognise great worth. A peerage grants a person a measure of legislative authoritative over this country, for life in most cases, and definitely should not be used as a reward for failure or a nice retirement package. It is very very serious.

    Now, many would do away with such a systems we have it at all which is fair enough, but while we still have it the principle that our legislative processes will benefit from the inclusion of people who hold or have held particular positions is not i think unreasonable, and I would suggest Speaker of the House of Commons is one such position. Even if it is Bercow.

    If the whole system is to be ripped up, sure, but until it is I think this convention is one that should be maintained.

    Who knows - his actions once elevated might well hasten its end
    It grants some useless twunts 300 a day plus expenses. Just a con.
    A legislatively important con! Theyve had baby steps in the right direction with retirement etc, but more is still needed to ensure it is not just a good way to get 300 a day.
  • malcolmg said:

    Corbyn's Christmas message is the perfect encapsulaiton of why Labour lost the election so heavily. It essentially accuses the majority of voters of not being as kind and as compasionate as he is, while failing to acknowledge any kind of Christmas joy and portraying the UK as a land of unremitting misery. He is, as he has done since he became leader, talking at the electorate, rather than to it.

    Until Labour understands that peope and the world are complex, that you can be opposed to public services cuts and homelessness, while also aspiring to a better life for you and your family and enjoying Christmas even though not everyone does (for example), it has no hope of winning power.

    I have not seen Johnson's message - and will do my very best to avoid it - but I bet it is diametrically opposed in tone and spirit to Cobyn's/ And I know which one most people will relate to better.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1209379431124353024

    The sooner Corbyn clears off to his allotment the better everyone will be and I know it is Christmas
    G, Hopefully Johnson will be marooned in Mustique and we will have seen the back of him, that would be doing the country a service
    I don't think you will get rid of him that easily Malc. Another 10 years beckons at the rate the opposition are collapsing

    Anyway, have a great Christmas and a guid New Year
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    HYUFD said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) and housing will eventually be what drives the Tories out of power. All the help to buy stuff has done is keep housing prices artificially high for too long, and the huge number of properties sold as leasehold these days is a ticking timebomb without comprehensive leasehold reform (something Scotland has led the way on).

    Tenants will need housing benefit for ~20 years after they retire. The basic state pension is £8,800/year but the market rent of a house in say Worcester seems to be £7,000/year
    https://www.home.co.uk/for_rent/worcester/current_rents?location=worcester

    I call that quite a loudly-ticking timebomb, i.e. to add to the leasehold scandal.
    Not really, given most renters already vote Labour anyway and the vast majority of over 65s own their own property
    I think you've sort of missed the point there.

    Will most over 65s own their own property in the future? Perhaps. Will the number of over 65s not owning property double (or more)? Very possibly. That will cost a lot of money in housing benefit (unless you want to throw pensioners out onto the street - probably not a vote winner!)
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    HYUFD said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) and housing will eventually be what drives the Tories out of power. All the help to buy stuff has done is keep housing prices artificially high for too long, and the huge number of properties sold as leasehold these days is a ticking timebomb without comprehensive leasehold reform (something Scotland has led the way on).

    That is not really true, given the age at which most have bought their first property is still 34, with help to buy helping ensure younger people can buy and the Tories are also reducing the student loan interest rate. The Tories also made clear in their manifesto they would ban new leasehold houses, though still allowing leasehold flats (inevitably as flats cannot be brought freehold unless you buy the whole block, though even there commonhold is becoming more common).

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/milestonesjourneyingintoadulthood/2019-02-18

    If the Tories win the next general election they will be in office for about 20 years, a historic, unprecedented period of power unsurpassed since the expansion of the franchise, yet no party can be in power for ever
    Help to buy is a subsidy for house builders (and by extension, existing owners), nothing more, nothing less.

    Free market economics would have dictated the price of housing had to fall, help to buy kept demand buoyant. It's a terrible piece of market intervention.

    Help to buy has to be spent on new build properties (who benefits there I wonder?). Many of which have been sold (or mis sold) as leasehold, with doubling ground rent clauses, uncapped service charges and restrictive covenants.

    And of course you have to pay interest on the help to buy loan / pay the help to buy loan back, which traps people in their starter home.

    And don't even get me started on "shared ownership" which is actually a form of assured shorthold tenancy. You don't "own" anything.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,254

    I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.

    I would add Gloria de Piero to that. Caring, considerate and sane.
  • MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
    Actually we got the most votes among working people. Also, pensions are deferred income. People have paid into them.
    We all work, and several of the family are serving in branches of the Armed Forces. The sole pensioner is my Mum who worked from the ages of 14-68. I think she's earned her retirement.

    The only Labour voter in the whole family is a University student, everyone else voted Tory/LD/SNP.
  • I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.

    I have no doubt Boris should recognise her
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    I thought Bercow was all about overturning century-old precedents.
  • I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.

    I have no doubt Boris should recognise her
    True to form, Leavers can’t name someone outside the circle of trust they’d be prepared to see given a peerage. A politician prepared to vote for a no deal Brexit doesn’t count.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019
    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) and housing will eventually be what drives the Tories out of power. All the help to buy stuff has done is keep housing prices artificially high for too long, and the huge number of properties sold as leasehold these days is a ticking timebomb without comprehensive leasehold reform (something Scotland has led the way on).

    Tenants will need housing benefit for ~20 years after they retire. The basic state pension is £8,800/year but the market rent of a house in say Worcester seems to be £7,000/year
    https://www.home.co.uk/for_rent/worcester/current_rents?location=worcester

    I call that quite a loudly-ticking timebomb, i.e. to add to the leasehold scandal.
    Not really, given most renters already vote Labour anyway and the vast majority of over 65s own their own property
    I think you've sort of missed the point there.

    Will most over 65s own their own property in the future? Perhaps. Will the number of over 65s not owning property double (or more)? Very possibly. That will cost a lot of money in housing benefit (unless you want to throw pensioners out onto the street - probably not a vote winner!)
    Almost certainly yes given even most 34 year olds now own their property outright or with a mortgage and the numbers of property owners increase further each decade after that
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/milestonesjourneyingintoadulthood/2019-02-18
  • I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.

    Stupid woman - sold out to the Europhobes to save her own skin and got humiliated anyway. Her constituents obviously spotted a chancer when they saw one and acted accordingly. Nevertheless, that will probably endear her to Boris so she'll get some goodies.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    malcolmg said:

    timmo said:

    Where is the PB Christmas crossword?

    Tomorrow.
    Clue is in the name I would have thought
    Damn you’re going to be good at this.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.

    Stupid woman - sold out to the Europhobes to save her own skin and got humiliated anyway. Her constituents obviously spotted a chancer when they saw one and acted accordingly. Nevertheless, that will probably endear her to Boris so she'll get some goodies.
    You could argue she lost because of the party's position, not her own.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited December 2019

    I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.

    I have no doubt Boris should recognise her
    True to form, Leavers can’t name someone outside the circle of trust they’d be prepared to see given a peerage. A politician prepared to vote for a no deal Brexit doesn’t count.
    So if it is unacceptable to put headbanger leavers that support no deal in the Lords then looking at the proEU side it should be unacceptable to put headbangers that want to cancel the vote or have a second fixed referendum. To me this means that the criteria should be accept the result of the ref and we have to leave and then propose and support a compromise agreement with the EU, for example an EEA agreement. I can only think of Nick Boles and Kinnock Jr.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019
    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) Scotland has led the way on).

    That is not really true, given the age mon).

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/milestonesjourneyingintoadulthood/2019-02-18

    If the Tories win the next general election they will be in office for about 20 years, a historic, unprecedented period of power unsurpassed since the expansion of the franchise, yet no party can be in power for ever
    Help to buy is a subsidy for house builders (and by extension, existing owners), nothing more, nothing less.

    Free market economics would have dictated the price of housing had to fall, help to buy kept demand buoyant. It's a terrible piece of market intervention.

    Help to buy has to be spent on new build properties (who benefits there I wonder?). Many of which have been sold (or mis sold) as leasehold, with doubling ground rent clauses, uncapped service charges and restrictive covenants.

    And of course you have to pay interest on the help to buy loan / pay the help to buy loan back, which traps people in their starter home.

    And don't even get me started on "shared ownership" which is actually a form of assured shorthold tenancy. You don't "own" anything.
    Wrong, I know several people who have managed to buy a property thanks to right to buy and shared ownership, again whinging from you but no constructive proposals except criticising those in place. Shared ownership gives you ownership of a fraction of the property which you gradually increase


    If the price of housing fell due to the free market it would be as average incomes fell which helps nobody extra get a property as mortgages are provided based on multiples of income, the only other way to help other than help to buy etc is building more homes and increasing supply which councils are doing through Local Plans and through restricting immigration which the new points based immigration system Boris wants will do.

    As I already pointed out and you ignored the Tories made a manifesto commitment to ban new leasehold houses.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    HYUFD said:


    Almost certainly yes given even most 34 year olds now own their property outright or with a mortgage and the numbers of property owners increase further each decade after that
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/milestonesjourneyingintoadulthood/2019-02-18

    Outright ownership at 34 either means you're completely loaded or can get a better house lol
  • I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.

    I have no doubt Boris should recognise her
    True to form, Leavers can’t name someone outside the circle of trust they’d be prepared to see given a peerage. A politician prepared to vote for a no deal Brexit doesn’t count.
    Alastair. You are becoming a bit tedious to be honest and as 2020 comes along and we leave the EU you are going to be so unhappy while most everyone else will move on.

    And remember I voted remain

    Anyway have a great Christmas and Happy New Year
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    I think a law should be passed requiring Lords appointments to be in proportion to the share of the vote in the last general election.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Completely off topic, would anyone like to volunteer to co-author a thread with me? It will require a LOT of research and while I have time for half of what is required, I definitely don't have the time for all of what is required.

    Plus points: you will get equal billing; this is not the type of article where you need to agree with my political views at all; it should be quite interesting to work on; it gives you an excuse not to socialise with family over Christmas.

    Minus points: the salary is nil; it will be time-consuming.

    With that in mind, any takers? First come first served.

    Research into what sort of thing?

    Of vague relevance to the previous thread, Churchill (the real one) used to run teams of specialist historians to provide research for his great works.
    I’m not convinced that Peter Henessey has been inside an archive or written a first draft for years.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    I think Boris should consider Caroline Flint. Long service in the House and Govt, prepared to compromise. I think she would work hard in the Lords and not just take the cash and refreshments.

    Stupid woman - sold out to the Europhobes to save her own skin and got humiliated anyway. Her constituents obviously spotted a chancer when they saw one and acted accordingly. Nevertheless, that will probably endear her to Boris so she'll get some goodies.
    Is this the only time a Labour politican hasn’t, in your world, played a blinder?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Gabs3 said:

    I think a law should be passed requiring Lords appointments to be in proportion to the share of the vote in the last general election.

    I think a law should be passed requiring no more laws be passed. We've got quite enough as it is, thank you.

    Or maybe they can only pass a new law for every ten laws they revoke.

    It would be one way to simplify the tax code.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    Quick question: I'm writing an article for year-end about PB births, deaths, job changes and illnesses. I know about @twistedfirestopper3 wife, @ExiledInScotland brother, and @Casino_Royale 's baby. I know there was a stabbing, somebody left job to do a law degree, and several others are very ill. Can anybody enlighten me as to who they are, please?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    (I already know about Philippa, Calum and Mark Senior's deaths)
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    edited December 2019
    HYUFD said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Given no UK government since Lord Liverpool pre the Great Reform Act in 1832 has got more than 20 consecutive years in power, social democrat victories in the 2030s may be inevitable whatever the Tories do on student loans even if they get another decade in power to do it
    Unfair student loans (interest rate 5.4%!) and housing will eventually be what drives the Tories out of power. All the help to buy stuff has done is keep housing prices artificially high for too long, and the huge number of properties sold as leasehold these days is a ticking timebomb without comprehensive leasehold reform (something Scotland has led the way on).

    Tenants will need housing benefit for ~20 years after they retire. The basic state pension is £8,800/year but the market rent of a house in say Worcester seems to be £7,000/year
    https://www.home.co.uk/for_rent/worcester/current_rents?location=worcester

    I call that quite a loudly-ticking timebomb, i.e. to add to the leasehold scandal.
    Not really, given most renters already vote Labour anyway and the vast majority of over 65s own their own property
    Even if tenants comprise 'only' 40% of pensioners in 2045, that's a ticking timebomb. House prices up in past 10-15 years, vs real wages, means more people becoming resigned to the fact that they'll rent for the rest of their life (45 years possibly).

    They'll be paying market rents, unless Harold Macmillan comes back from the grave with a housing policy that doesn't stigmatise public sector tenants versus owner-occupiers. Governments then sought to build more homes of both types of tenure and achieved an amazing rate of 400,000 per year, pre- the near-total 'bonfire of the regulations'.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    viewcode said:

    Quick question: I'm writing an article for year-end about PB births, deaths, job changes and illnesses. I know about @twistedfirestopper3 wife, @ExiledInScotland brother, and @Casino_Royale 's baby. I know there was a stabbing, somebody left job to do a law degree, and several others are very ill. Can anybody enlighten me as to who they are, please?

    I'm told my mother is very unlikely to last the year out. Been talking to undertakers about preliminary arrangements this morning. Not something I've ever had to deal with before. I also have a foul hacking cough and cold - can't risk taking that to the home she's in. So I've probably seen her for the last time.

    It's beginning to look a lot like a shit Christmas.....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    viewcode said:

    Quick question: I'm writing an article for year-end about PB births, deaths, job changes and illnesses. I know about @twistedfirestopper3 wife, @ExiledInScotland brother, and @Casino_Royale 's baby. I know there was a stabbing, somebody left job to do a law degree, and several others are very ill. Can anybody enlighten me as to who they are, please?

    I'm told my mother is very unlikely to last the year out. Been talking to undertakers about preliminary arrangements this morning. Not something I've ever had to deal with before. I also have a foul hacking cough and cold - can't risk taking that to the home she's in. So I've probably seen her for the last time.

    It's beginning to look a lot like a shit Christmas.....
    Very very sorry to hear that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    viewcode said:

    Quick question: I'm writing an article for year-end about PB births, deaths, job changes and illnesses. I know about @twistedfirestopper3 wife, @ExiledInScotland brother, and @Casino_Royale 's baby. I know there was a stabbing, somebody left job to do a law degree, and several others are very ill. Can anybody enlighten me as to who they are, please?

    I'm told my mother is very unlikely to last the year out. Been talking to undertakers about preliminary arrangements this morning. Not something I've ever had to deal with before. I also have a foul hacking cough and cold - can't risk taking that to the home she's in. So I've probably seen her for the last time.

    It's beginning to look a lot like a shit Christmas.....
    Deepest sympathies to you and your family :(
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    The swing against Flint was nothing out of the ordinary, indeed it was superior to the mahoosive swing in Bassetlaw where Labour stuck a hardcore Momentum Corbynite in that didn't even have the backing of local labour councillors.
    All neighbouring constituencies to Don Valley had a bigger swing against - you can head back further in fact. In 1997 at the Tory nadir the majority was only just over 14,000 there -

    Bolsover; Rother Valley; Bassetlaw have all been historically further away or just as far for the Tories.

    To keep the swing down to 8.1% was a very good result for her.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    viewcode said:

    Quick question: I'm writing an article for year-end about PB births, deaths, job changes and illnesses. I know about @twistedfirestopper3 wife, @ExiledInScotland brother, and @Casino_Royale 's baby. I know there was a stabbing, somebody left job to do a law degree, and several others are very ill. Can anybody enlighten me as to who they are, please?

    It is @Gallowgate doing the law conversion course.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    viewcode said:

    Quick question: I'm writing an article for year-end about PB births, deaths, job changes and illnesses. I know about @twistedfirestopper3 wife, @ExiledInScotland brother, and @Casino_Royale 's baby. I know there was a stabbing, somebody left job to do a law degree, and several others are very ill. Can anybody enlighten me as to who they are, please?

    I'm told my mother is very unlikely to last the year out. Been talking to undertakers about preliminary arrangements this morning. Not something I've ever had to deal with before. I also have a foul hacking cough and cold - can't risk taking that to the home she's in. So I've probably seen her for the last time.

    It's beginning to look a lot like a shit Christmas.....
    God, that's terrible. Sorry to hear that, mate

    If it helps, you are not alone, this year has been carnage for friends and relatives snapping off like carrots. The year ends with one very old friend in hospital with a 60/40 chance of pulling through, and I just got an email from ANOTHER very old friend with grim news.

    I don't know whether to laugh, cry or drink. I will probably do all three.

    Merry Christmas!
This discussion has been closed.