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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris would be making a big mistake denying Bercow a peerage

SystemSystem Posts: 11,794
edited December 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris would be making a big mistake denying Bercow a peerage

New Speaker Lindsay Hoyle is surely right when he says says Johnson should not deny Bercow a peerage. It would be seen as mean and vindictive. #.https://t.co/iFaPJQ9uJo

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Comments

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    Agreed..Boris can afford to be magnanimous in victory.
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    The important thing is that Letwin doesn't get a peerage.

    Or any position in which he might have any influence on this country.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,141
    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Boris should give one to Bercow, Grieve, Clarke and Stormzy.

    And Jo Swinson.
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    GasmanGasman Posts: 132
    Once Bercow publicly explains that precedents should be followed, and apologises for not doing so.....
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    Boris Johnson is mean and petty. The only calculation is whether he can afford to indulge that pettiness or whether he decides it is politic to appear magnanimous. I expect he will go with the former.

    It won't do him any harm if he does. His claque will adore him for it.
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Bercow was happy to defy precedent when he thought he was on the winning side. The people who will find it petty are never going to support Boris. So bollocks to Bercow.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,141

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
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    Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    Get the highly efficient team that delivered swift justice to Keith Vaz involved.
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    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,141

    Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
    Politically it would be astute too to do it now. Kill him off with kindness now - hard leavers will love it, hard remainers will be incensed; most of the population won't care.
    If it's not done it could become one a rallying call for "Boris never intended to leave properly, wouldn't give Farage a knighthood".

    The bullying allegations provide good cover certainly for delaying Bercow's peerage till they're sorted.
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    +1
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    Boris Johnson is mean and petty. The only calculation is whether he can afford to indulge that pettiness or whether he decides it is politic to appear magnanimous. I expect he will go with the former.

    It won't do him any harm if he does. His claque will adore him for it.

    I’m beginning to think that whatever happens Alastair will be able to tell us why the PM was wrong to pick that particular course of action.
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    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
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    Boris Johnson is mean and petty. The only calculation is whether he can afford to indulge that pettiness or whether he decides it is politic to appear magnanimous. I expect he will go with the former.

    It won't do him any harm if he does. His claque will adore him for it.

    I’m beginning to think that whatever happens Alastair will be able to tell us why the PM was wrong to pick that particular course of action.
    The post you quote includes the words "It won't do him any harm if he does."

    I realise that you might want to read whatever you want to read, but don't drag me into your private fantasies.
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    Speaking of enquiries what happened to the Bex Bailey investigation ?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,462
    saddened said:

    Bercow was happy to defy precedent when he thought he was on the winning side. The people who will find it petty are never going to support Boris. So bollocks to Bercow.

    Hard to beat the Tories for nastiness, it is not only the party leaders, the cannon fodder are just as nasty and odious.
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    If I were making the decision I would probably be thinking that following precedence and John Bercow go together like Boris Johnson and marital fidelity, and so go with not offering him a peerage.

    If I were being particularly mean then perhaps an hereditary peerage would be the ticket as I don’t think that gets you into the Lords anymore.

    It’s a very good job I’m not PM for everyone’s sake.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,075
    edited December 2019

    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
    It would also be an exquisite humiliation for Johnson to bestow a knighthood on Farage for services to Brexit. Which is why I think he might do it.

    Farage's John the Baptist to Johnson's Jesus Christ, so to speak.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,462

    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
    says it all about this country when arseholes like him are considered for "honours". I doubt if ever a word has been so misused. Most countries would jail them or tar and feather them
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,462

    Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
    yes true they won zero MP's in every election that counted for anything.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
    says it all about this country when arseholes like him are considered for "honours". I doubt if ever a word has been so misused. Most countries would jail them or tar and feather them
    Disgraceful that other parties who actually had MPs have had their ex leaders overlooked..
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    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
    yes true they won zero MP's in every election that counted for anything.
    As he saw it, he had one job. He thought he had completed that in 2016. It appeared not, so he came back in april, and sealed the deal.

    We are leaving the EU in the next five weeks and it is down to him. He beat the establishment not once, but twice.
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    Boris Johnson is mean and petty. The only calculation is whether he can afford to indulge that pettiness or whether he decides it is politic to appear magnanimous. I expect he will go with the former.

    It won't do him any harm if he does. His claque will adore him for it.

    I’m beginning to think that whatever happens Alastair will be able to tell us why the PM was wrong to pick that particular course of action.
    The post you quote includes the words "It won't do him any harm if he does."

    I realise that you might want to read whatever you want to read, but don't drag me into your private fantasies.
    Doing something wrong that has no bad electoral consequences is still doing something wrong.
    One reason I read the comments here is to read opinions that challenge my assumptions. I may not agree with everything you write, but at the least it forces me to make sure I am happy about my prejudices and sometimes it makes me change how I view something. I apologise if I came across as too flippant earlier.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,141
    edited December 2019
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
    yes true they won zero MP's in every election that counted for anything.
    He's certainly achieved much outwith producing 0 MPs.

    The important thing is that Letwin doesn't get a peerage.

    Or any position in which he might have any influence on this country.

    Letwin was one of those who liked to produce a motion, a bill, an amendment - oh it was never him that was blocking Brexit - just giving enough rope so that others may follow his lead and lo, behold we haven't left.
    He managed to both be too clever by half and not half as smart as he thinks he is. Not to mention the good old community charge...
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,945

    The important thing is that Letwin doesn't get a peerage.

    Or any position in which he might have any influence on this country.

    Still like my idea of giving him a verb, noun or adjective: "The letwinning letwin has really letwinned it up this time". Such spectacular self defeating nonsense really needs to be remembered and commemorated. Its special. Bit like General Hooker.
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    Bercow's behaviour in office and role mean he doesn't deserve anything.

    Boris should say Bercow's peerage has been given to Nigel Farage instead.
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    Pulpstar said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
    yes true they won zero MP's in every election that counted for anything.
    He's certainly achieved much outwith producing 0 MPs.

    The important thing is that Letwin doesn't get a peerage.

    Or any position in which he might have any influence on this country.

    Letwin was one of those who liked to produce a motion, a bill, an amendment - oh it was never him that was blocking Brexit - just giving enough rope so that others may follow his lead and lo, behold we haven't left.
    He managed to both be too clever by half and not half as smart as he thinks he is. Not to mention the good old community charge...
    There should be a verb 'to letwin' - to mess things up by being being too clever by half and not half as smart as you think you are.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 19,415

    Pulpstar said:

    If they want to stop Bercow getting a peerage then the way to do it is to set up an enquiry into bullying allegations with Bercow unable to get a peerage until the issue is resolved.

    That's a good point about the bullying, Bercow seems as if he was extremely unliked by the rest of the Commons staff.
    Being cynical, many enquiries are set up to produce a specified result in a specified timescale.

    Even if there was no evidence against Bercow you could still take many years investigating bullying allegations.
    My impression is that Nigel Farage has to date been withheld an honour for reasons connected with the Mueller inquiry. Since that seems to have passed without him being further implicated, he might well be honoured this time round.
    So let him wait many years, then.

    He had the oppotunity to start an appropriate enquiry, and he chose to use his personal authority to prevent it.

    We would not have a rape facilitator or an abuse tolerator newly appointed to the Lords.

    Why would a possible bullying tolerator, or a bully himself, be any different?
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    DavidL said:

    The important thing is that Letwin doesn't get a peerage.

    Or any position in which he might have any influence on this country.

    Still like my idea of giving him a verb, noun or adjective: "The letwinning letwin has really letwinned it up this time". Such spectacular self defeating nonsense really needs to be remembered and commemorated. Its special. Bit like General Hooker.
    Though if the stories are right Hooker gave his name to something very different to his lack of military prowess.
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    DavidL said:

    The important thing is that Letwin doesn't get a peerage.

    Or any position in which he might have any influence on this country.

    Still like my idea of giving him a verb, noun or adjective: "The letwinning letwin has really letwinned it up this time". Such spectacular self defeating nonsense really needs to be remembered and commemorated. Its special. Bit like General Hooker.
    The letwin letwin's letwinningly letwinned things up.

    Adjective, noun, adverb, verb.

    As in the fucking fucker's fucking fucked things up.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,141
    edited December 2019
    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.
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    twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,186
    edited December 2019
    No ex MP should get an automatic "honour". The whole system wants bringing down.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,686
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/bbc-election-night-and-systemic-media-bias/

    This is enjoyably angry from two idiots at the LSE. No wonder it's gone downhill if they employ people like this.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,850
    Banterman said:

    Bercow's behaviour in office and role mean he doesn't deserve anything.

    Boris should say Bercow's peerage has been given to Nigel Farage instead.

    What behaviour? I ask because his fighting for Parliament is not a reason for blocking his peerage - his bullying however was...
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,945
    I think that this is pretty finely balanced. Bercow was pretty disgraceful as Speaker: opinionated, bullying, sneering, pretentious, greedy, pompous, he brought little credit to his office.

    But the office needs to recover from his occupation of it and breaking a precedent like this would not help. There's been enough of that already. I think the office wins, but its close.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,945

    DavidL said:

    The important thing is that Letwin doesn't get a peerage.

    Or any position in which he might have any influence on this country.

    Still like my idea of giving him a verb, noun or adjective: "The letwinning letwin has really letwinned it up this time". Such spectacular self defeating nonsense really needs to be remembered and commemorated. Its special. Bit like General Hooker.
    Though if the stories are right Hooker gave his name to something very different to his lack of military prowess.
    Yes, there had been what are quaintly called camp followers for thousands of years. Only General Hooker managed to give them a new name.
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    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302
    Yes it would be a mistake. Like the Bennites ramming through Bills in a day the act would be turned upon them one day.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,945
    MaxPB said:

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/bbc-election-night-and-systemic-media-bias/

    This is enjoyably angry from two idiots at the LSE. No wonder it's gone downhill if they employ people like this.

    That really is tosh but I do find it frustrating that they are quite so coy about vote shares in their projections. It clearly is a deliberate policy not to disclose them and I don't really understand why.
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    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    I like the way you said "Social Democrat landslides" and not simply the Labour landslides.
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    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,113
    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred.....

    I genuinely don’t understand this, either.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,488
    With Olly Robbins getting a gong for services to Brexit, the fetid honours system couldn't be more in need of a massive shake up.

    These honours need to be made EXCEPTIONAL awards. And for being exceptional in a good way, Mr. Bercow. Not something that just comes along with the Civil Service or EU pensions.

    Bercow was a central figure in allowing our Parliament to walk away from its obligations for many months, as he plotted with the Remainers in Parliament. The rest have been told what the voters think of them. Bercow should have the same treatment meted out by Boris.

    If it was left to me, Bercow would spend the rest of his days like a performing monkey, shouting "Order, Order!" to crowds of bemused Chinese visitors in Covent Garden, seeking small change in a held out full bottomed wig.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,945
    Nigelb said:

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred.....

    I genuinely don’t understand this, either.

    I don't hate him but his combination of superficial cleverness and underlying idiocy is worthy of note. Its a classic British archetype.
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    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Not one of them deserves anything. Nothing screams "out of touch elites" more than giving out "honours" for just doing your job, no matter how long you've been in position. If they want to really change politics, they could start by stopping dishing out baubles to each other.
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    The question which all the loony Leavers on thread completely flunk is who are the political opponents they would be happy to see ennobled. NB "political opponents" for this purpose means those who are not within the Leaver circle of trust (so answers like Gisela Stuart don't count).
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302

    No ex MP should get an automatic "honour". The whole system wants bringing down.

    Being a peer is a lot more than merely being given an honour, which is just a bauble, albeit one which can recognise great worth. A peerage grants a person a measure of legislative authoritative over this country, for life in most cases, and definitely should not be used as a reward for failure or a nice retirement package. It is very very serious.

    Now, many would do away with such a systems we have it at all which is fair enough, but while we still have it the principle that our legislative processes will benefit from the inclusion of people who hold or have held particular positions is not i think unreasonable, and I would suggest Speaker of the House of Commons is one such position. Even if it is Bercow.

    If the whole system is to be ripped up, sure, but until it is I think this convention is one that should be maintained.

    Who knows - his actions once elevated might well hasten its end
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,811

    Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
    It would be astute for Johnson to keep his word to the Brexit Party, so next time he offers peerages for political favours it keeps his credibility.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,141
    edited December 2019
    nunu2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    I like the way you said "Social Democrat landslides" and not simply the Labour landslides.
    I haven't seen much love for Labour amongst my graduate friends - who do now represent their core vote having forgone their traditional vote in the north. Primarily it is "Who can stop the Tories"
    Change UK was obviously a failure but I'm not certain the Labour brand survives long term with the way it is. Ian Murray leaving would spell curtains for them in Scotland (I think he could hold Edinburgh South as an independent). If he decides to go that is Scotland lost forever to Labour.
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    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Not one of them deserves anything. Nothing screams "out of touch elites" more than giving out "honours" for just doing your job, no matter how long you've been in position. If they want to really change politics, they could start by stopping dishing out baubles to each other.
    Oh I completely agree that the system is stupid. I'd be all in favour of an upper house elected by proportional representation. But the roadblock to change is the lower house, which fears that an upper house with more legitimacy might reduce its own rank.
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    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,834
    People who should get a peerage:

    1. John Bercow - because ex-speakers do.
    2. Nigel Farage - because he has made an enormous, perhaps unprecedented contribution to British politics.
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    nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    edited December 2019
    MaxPB said:

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/bbc-election-night-and-systemic-media-bias/

    This is enjoyably angry from two idiots at the LSE. No wonder it's gone downhill if they employ people like this.

    Fools. It's seats that matter in our system.

    They should hand back their degrees to whichever university was silly to award them.
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    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    Suggestion on Twitter that the absence of The Sun is the root cause.

    Is there any discrepancy once you account for general demographic factors? How great is it?

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    Endillion said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
    Or you could just, I don't know, accept that you don't have a monopoly of wisdom and that the disobliging views of others ought to be respected.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,460
    edited December 2019

    The question which all the loony Leavers on thread completely flunk is who are the political opponents they would be happy to see ennobled. NB "political opponents" for this purpose means those who are not within the Leaver circle of trust (so answers like Gisela Stuart don't count).

    I don't consider myself a "loony" - but I'll bite. Alan AJ Johnson.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,488
    DavidL said:

    I think that this is pretty finely balanced. Bercow was pretty disgraceful as Speaker: opinionated, bullying, sneering, pretentious, greedy, pompous, he brought little credit to his office.

    But the office needs to recover from his occupation of it and breaking a precedent like this would not help. There's been enough of that already. I think the office wins, but its close.

    Speaker Hoyle can provide that recovery from the nasty case of Mad Bercow Disease it has suffered.
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    More shamefully it seems Cummings and BoJo have decided to not give Ken Clarke a peerage.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/bbc-election-night-and-systemic-media-bias/

    This is enjoyably angry from two idiots at the LSE. No wonder it's gone downhill if they employ people like this.

    That really is tosh but I do find it frustrating that they are quite so coy about vote shares in their projections. It clearly is a deliberate policy not to disclose them and I don't really understand why.
    Because national vote shares are close to irrelevant in terms of what actually happens on election night?

    Take Scotland, for example. Margin of error of even +/- 1% in SNP vote is the difference between them taking every Scottish seat, and none of them.

    And the Lib Dems just increased vote share by 50% and lost seats. In 2017 they lost vote share and gained seats. In 2010 they gained vote share and lost seats.
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    The question which all the loony Leavers on thread completely flunk is who are the political opponents they would be happy to see ennobled. NB "political opponents" for this purpose means those who are not within the Leaver circle of trust (so answers like Gisela Stuart don't count).

    Jeremy Corbyn for services to the Conservative Party?

    More seriously I’ve been listening to Jacqui Smith the former Labour Home Secretary on some podcasts with Iain Dale for LBC. She is someone who would do well in the Lords, and she is definitely not a fan of Boris or of Brexit.
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    Endillion said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
    Your last suggestion is excellent.
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    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    More shamefully it seems Cummings and BoJo have decided to not give Ken Clarke a peerage.

    Pour encourages Les autres.

    Can anyone name any other PM bar Blair who willingly gave peerages to sworn enemies ?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,141

    More shamefully it seems Cummings and BoJo have decided to not give Ken Clarke a peerage.

    Now that is a shame, Ken Clarke never hid his pro Europeanism unlike some, and voted through all the May and Johnson deals.
    He made a genuine attempt in the indicative votes process to reach for compromise instead of the monomaniacal remain only approach of many that ultimately created the perfect ground for a leave landslide in the final (& Hardest) Brexit WA vote.

    Another that should be given a peerage ? Nick Boles.
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    Nigelb said:

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred.....

    I genuinely don’t understand this, either.

    Read DavidL's and Pulpstar's comments on Letwin.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302
    Endillion said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/bbc-election-night-and-systemic-media-bias/

    This is enjoyably angry from two idiots at the LSE. No wonder it's gone downhill if they employ people like this.

    That really is tosh but I do find it frustrating that they are quite so coy about vote shares in their projections. It clearly is a deliberate policy not to disclose them and I don't really understand why.
    Because national vote shares are close to irrelevant in terms of what actually happens on election night?

    Take Scotland, for example. Margin of error of even +/- 1% in SNP vote is the difference between them taking every Scottish seat, and none of them.

    And the Lib Dems just increased vote share by 50% and lost seats. In 2017 they lost vote share and gained seats. In 2010 they gained vote share and lost seats.
    It's so simple even an academic should get it. It's not the system I'd prefer either but what a very odd complaint they have.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,295

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    Suggestion on Twitter that the absence of The Sun is the root cause.

    Is there any discrepancy once you account for general demographic factors? How great is it?

    I'm sure that Merseyside is *far* more left wing than you would expect, based purely on demographics. In most parts of the country, you'd expect places like Wirral South and Wirral West and Crosby to be Conservative,
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302

    More shamefully it seems Cummings and BoJo have decided to not give Ken Clarke a peerage.

    Maybe he will get one later and they're just giving him a break. But we know Boris is vindictive.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    The question which all the loony Leavers on thread completely flunk is who are the political opponents they would be happy to see ennobled. NB "political opponents" for this purpose means those who are not within the Leaver circle of trust (so answers like Gisela Stuart don't count).

    Nick Clegg, when the time comes, although he's blotted his copybook a bit by going off to work for Facebook. Vince Cable, I guess, as well.

    Philip Hammond I wouldn't object to. David Lidington. Tom Watson no, but only because of his involvement in the Carl Beech affair.

    Is it cheating to say Gordon Brown?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,811
    Endillion said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
    Yes, what we need is Conservative Party Commisars at all levels of public life, to ensure that compliance.

    Death to the Kulaks and Wreckers! All power to the People's Government under the rule of the Father of the Nation, Comrade Johnson.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,834
    TOPPING said:

    People who should get a peerage:

    1. John Bercow - because ex-speakers do.
    2. Nigel Farage - because he has made an enormous, perhaps unprecedented contribution to British politics.

    3. Ken Clarke
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302

    Endillion said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
    Your last suggestion is excellent.
    Not declaring an interest there old chap? :)

    Not that I disagree.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302
    Foxy said:

    Endillion said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
    Yes, what we need is Conservative Party Commisars at all levels of public life, to ensure that compliance.

    Death to the Kulaks and Wreckers! All power to the People's Government under the rule of the Father of the Nation, Comrade Johnson.
    That's the spirit! We'll all be fine.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
    Or you could just, I don't know, accept that you don't have a monopoly of wisdom and that the disobliging views of others ought to be respected.
    They can have whatever views they want, as long as they keep it out the classroom.
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    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
    Your last suggestion is excellent.
    Not declaring an interest there old chap? :)

    Not that I disagree.
    I figured the name was enough of a hint.
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    timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    Where is the PB Christmas crossword?
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    Endillion said:

    The question which all the loony Leavers on thread completely flunk is who are the political opponents they would be happy to see ennobled. NB "political opponents" for this purpose means those who are not within the Leaver circle of trust (so answers like Gisela Stuart don't count).

    Nick Clegg, when the time comes, although he's blotted his copybook a bit by going off to work for Facebook. Vince Cable, I guess, as well.

    Philip Hammond I wouldn't object to. David Lidington. Tom Watson no, but only because of his involvement in the Carl Beech affair.

    Is it cheating to say Gordon Brown?
    Interesting you mention Nick Clegg. He was a hate figure in 2017 and all the mad Leavers were objecting to him even getting a knighthood. But now they've moved onto new hate figures.

    I expect Ken Clarke, Oliver Letwin et al will all be tolerated once the revolution has found new children to eat.
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    TGOHF666 said:

    More shamefully it seems Cummings and BoJo have decided to not give Ken Clarke a peerage.

    Pour encourages Les autres.

    Can anyone name any other PM bar Blair who willingly gave peerages to sworn enemies ?
    Thatcher did, she always gave her wet critics peerages when they left the Commons. Dave did to a lesser extent.

    Ken Clarke’s first act as Chancellor was to sack David Cameron but the moment Dave became leader he tried to get Ken Clarke to join the shadow cabinet.
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    timmo said:

    Where is the PB Christmas crossword?

    Tomorrow.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,141
    edited December 2019

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    Suggestion on Twitter that the absence of The Sun is the root cause.

    Is there any discrepancy once you account for general demographic factors? How great is it?

    The Tories now have an MP that represents Orgreave, for all intents and purposes the historical mining link to Labour is on it's last legs if not completely dead. The reason Labour still has strength along the M62 belt is deprivation (Wigan, Makerfield) and the fact austerity hit these towns hard.

    But Liverpool is Labour way beyond its relative deprivation, BAME vote graduate % or urban character suggests it should be. I think it is the Sun and the reason for the Sun being banned - the Hillsborough disaster reinforced the Chernobyl like status the Tories have had in that part of the country.
    Also Corbyn's particular strand of Labour is very well liked there - Kinnock's speech was aimed against Hatton and co iirc.
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    Corbyn's Christmas message is the perfect encapsulaiton of why Labour lost the election so heavily. It essentially accuses the majority of voters of not being as kind and as compasionate as he is, while failing to acknowledge any kind of Christmas joy and portraying the UK as a land of unremitting misery. He is, as he has done since he became leader, talking at the electorate, rather than to it.

    Until Labour understands that peope and the world are complex, that you can be opposed to public services cuts and homelessness, while also aspiring to a better life for you and your family and enjoying Christmas even though not everyone does (for example), it has no hope of winning power.

    I have not seen Johnson's message - and will do my very best to avoid it - but I bet it is diametrically opposed in tone and spirit to Cobyn's/ And I know which one most people will relate to better.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1209379431124353024
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    Endillion said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/bbc-election-night-and-systemic-media-bias/

    This is enjoyably angry from two idiots at the LSE. No wonder it's gone downhill if they employ people like this.

    That really is tosh but I do find it frustrating that they are quite so coy about vote shares in their projections. It clearly is a deliberate policy not to disclose them and I don't really understand why.
    Because national vote shares are close to irrelevant in terms of what actually happens on election night?

    Take Scotland, for example. Margin of error of even +/- 1% in SNP vote is the difference between them taking every Scottish seat, and none of them.

    And the Lib Dems just increased vote share by 50% and lost seats. In 2017 they lost vote share and gained seats. In 2010 they gained vote share and lost seats.
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    Even if you accept vote share is important surely it's the difference between the parties vote share. In this election the Labour shortfall was bigger than any since 1984. However you look at it Labour got a pasting.
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    David Duckinfield being found not guilty at the end of November didn’t help the Tories in Liverpool.

    Boris Johnson’s publication of that article didn’t help the Tories in Liverpool.

    Ironically the most popular Tory in Liverpool is Dominic Grieve.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,670
    edited December 2019

    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Now Brexit is done, it's interesting that the nativists are returning to fine British hate figures rather than poor old Tusk, Barnier etc. I'm sure the moment BJ is thwarted in getting the shitload of post Brexit stuff done that needs to be done, normal service will be resumed.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,075
    .

    nunu2 said:

    Just amazing in the difference between Tory fortunes in Greater Manchester vs. Merseyside.

    People in Greater Manchester have jobs.
    Labour is the party of the working class, if your definition of "working class" is people that actually work and pay taxes etc. The Tories are the party of welfare claimants, in particular a group of highly entitled welfare claimants: pensioners.
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    Corbyn's Christmas message is the perfect encapsulaiton of why Labour lost the election so heavily. It essentially accuses the majority of voters of not being as kind and as compasionate as he is, while failing to acknowledge any kind of Christmas joy and portraying the UK as a land of unremitting misery. He is, as he has done since he became leader, talking at the electorate, rather than to it.

    Until Labour understands that peope and the world are complex, that you can be opposed to public services cuts and homelessness, while also aspiring to a better life for you and your family and enjoying Christmas even though not everyone does (for example), it has no hope of winning power.

    I have not seen Johnson's message - and will do my very best to avoid it - but I bet it is diametrically opposed in tone and spirit to Cobyn's/ And I know which one most people will relate to better.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1209379431124353024

    The sooner Corbyn clears off to his allotment the better everyone will be and I know it is Christmas
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    TOPPING said:

    People who should get a peerage:

    1. John Bercow - because ex-speakers do.
    2. Nigel Farage - because he has made an enormous, perhaps unprecedented contribution to British politics.

    Because he has had the most enormous, perhaps unprecedented effect on British politics might be a more nuanced way of expressing it.
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    I object to Bercow's peerage until a full and independent investigation into bullying in the HOC has been completed and published

    No other reason
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,574

    Pulpstar said:

    The other big decision is whether to give Farage a Knighthood.

    Actually Farage does deserve a peerage given the influence he has had on UK politics and the success his parties have had in various elections.
    I used to think that: given he is the most successful politician of his generation, he would certainly deserve it. But his actions since the election makes me think he is an Anglosphere Loyalist instead of a specifically British patriot, so now I'm not so sure.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,280

    Endillion said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories need to sort out the great university mess in the next decade or so, the current system isn't even particularly good for the nations finances. All it produces is left leaning graduates that bear a grudge. It's not an issue now because anyone over the age of 40 is horrified by the thought of Corbyn but long term it's a problem they need to sort. Remember this post when the Social Democrat landslides of the 2030s come along.

    Mandatory "re-education" of high school teachers to weed out the more overt leftyness wouldn't go amiss either. I think the problems start before university most of the time.

    Or we could just, I don't know, pay teachers a lot more.
    Your last suggestion is excellent.
    We should adjust public sector salaries to reflect both demand and the value of what they do.

    All teachers' salaries to be doubled.

    All MPs to have a minus figure.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,811

    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Now Brexit is done, it's interesting that the nativists are returning to fine British hate figures rather than poor old Tusk, Barnier etc. I'm sure the moment BJ is thwarted in getting the shitload of post Brexit stuff done that needs to be done, normal service will be resumed.
    Interesting that the hate figures include two of Jewish heritage. Perhaps the wrong sort of One Nation Toryism...
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    PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274

    If I were making the decision I would probably be thinking that following precedence and John Bercow go together like Boris Johnson and marital fidelity, and so go with not offering him a peerage.

    If I were being particularly mean then perhaps an hereditary peerage would be the ticket as I don’t think that gets you into the Lords anymore.

    It’s a very good job I’m not PM for everyone’s sake.

    Bercow would then be a 'hereditary of first creation' and, I believe, would automatically qualify for a seat in the HoL. His son would inherit the title, but would only be able to sit and vote if elected to a vacancy by his fellow hereditaries.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,574
    edited December 2019
    tlg86 said:

    The question which all the loony Leavers on thread completely flunk is who are the political opponents they would be happy to see ennobled. NB "political opponents" for this purpose means those who are not within the Leaver circle of trust (so answers like Gisela Stuart don't count).

    I don't consider myself a "loony" - but I'll bite. Alan AJ Johnson.
    I'm neirher a looney nor a Leaver, but the ones I would grant some recognition to would be Aaron Banks, Matthew Elliot, Isabel Hardman. Not so much Nigel Farage, for reasons elucidated downthread.
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    Foxy said:

    Anyway, OGH has managed to flush out all the diehards this morning, much as I expect he intended.

    If one were approaching it from first principles, John Bercow would obviously be getting a peerage. Quite apart from it being something that comes up with the rations for Speakers, he has been the most considerable Speaker of any of our lifetimes. You might not like him or what he stood for, but he was undeniably important: exactly the sort of person who should be honoured in the (stupid) system that Britain has.

    Nigel Farage has been an entirely malign influence on British politics. Nevertheless, he represents a substantial strand of British political opinion. A peerage would, regrettably, be in order here too.

    Oliver Letwin provokes the most irrational hatred among the crazier Leavers. Why is quite beyond me: he was utterly consistent in arguing that Britain should leave the EU with a deal and sought only to make sure that Britain did not leave the EU without a deal and to make sure that the terms of the deal were properly examined. This was apparently far too much for the extremists, who have made him into their latest hate figure. As a man who has provided public service for a generation, he too would be entirely fitting for a peerage. The only argument against him is based on a hatred of pluralism.

    Now Brexit is done, it's interesting that the nativists are returning to fine British hate figures rather than poor old Tusk, Barnier etc. I'm sure the moment BJ is thwarted in getting the shitload of post Brexit stuff done that needs to be done, normal service will be resumed.
    Interesting that the hate figures include two of Jewish heritage. Perhaps the wrong sort of One Nation Toryism...
    The age of Old Estonians has passed, now is the age of Old Etonians.
    Yet again.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 19,415
    I think I would agree that waiting the outcome of the bullying enquiry suppressed by Bercow is a pragmatic way ahead.

    OTOH the last couple of speakers - including Bercow - have hardly been stellar.

    We already have crooks, industrial scale expenses fiddlers, useless oafs, jailbirds and liars in the Lords, so why not add a pompous little self-obsessed tosspot to complete the collection? It will add even more colour.

    Happy Christmas, everyone !
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,488

    David Duckinfield being found not guilty at the end of November didn’t help the Tories in Liverpool.

    Boris Johnson’s publication of that article didn’t help the Tories in Liverpool.

    Ironically the most popular Tory in Liverpool is Dominic Grieve.

    Dominic Grieve is no Tory. He is an ex-MP of an independent label.
This discussion has been closed.