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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Cyclefree said:

    Unlikely to succeed but still worth doing - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/harry-dunn-diplomats-wife-anne-sacoolas-charged-over-crash-death-zwj2qtwj9 - if only to show the family that their government is doing all it can.

    How Mrs Sacoolas can live with herself I really don't know.

    I used to work for Chevron in their London offices off Oxford Street. Even as pedestrians, the Americans in the office would still regularly look the wrong way in traffic.

    I don't know whether it is still the case, but the US air bases in East Anglia used to have masses of US left-hand drive cars on them. First step to ending the problem would be to ban them from bringing their cars to this country.

    We can all say how terrible it is that she legged it back to the US. Bit how many of us can honestly say they would now be preparing to spend maybe the first of six or seven Christmases away from our family, doing jail time, if we could have got on a plane?

    Bring a civil action in the US. The measure of damages should be set in accordance with US justice - including punitive damages for running away - and be paid to the UK family by the US Govt. It wouldn't lessen their loss, but the large sum handed over might lessen their sense of grievance.
    The sad part is that if she'd stayed and faced the music, there's very little likelihood she would have actually gone to jail. Maybe a suspended sentence at worse, but I think jury and judge alike would have sympathy for a momentary lapse that had dreadful consequences.

    And as to taking civil action in the US, I'm not sure if there would be appropriate jurisdiction.

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    MangoMango Posts: 1,014
    Gabs3 said:


    Do you think Cummings and Boris have the personality and attention span to do those things?

    Nope, it'll be a few black-puddinged-up garden bridges, then a bit of spaffing to promote the SportsDirectisation of the entire economy, then pivot to Bannon for re-election time.
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    What YOU mean is that people who think Scottish independence a disaster should reserve judgment while the SNP Pollyannas should chirp away empty headedly to their hearts' content? Got ya.

    I can't really take anything you say seriously since you popped up the image of Anglo Unionism as a portly, puce faced bloke made even more red faced as he strains one out over a fish supper.
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    wf1954 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Unlikely to succeed but still worth doing - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/harry-dunn-diplomats-wife-anne-sacoolas-charged-over-crash-death-zwj2qtwj9 - if only to show the family that their government is doing all it can.

    How Mrs Sacoolas can live with herself I really don't know.

    I used to work for Chevron in their London offices off Oxford Street. Even as pedestrians, the Americans in the office would still regularly look the wrong way in traffic.

    I don't know whether it is still the case, but the US air bases in East Anglia used to have masses of US left-hand drive cars on them. First step to ending the problem would be to ban them from bringing their cars to this country.

    We can all say how terrible it is that she legged it back to the US. Bit how many of us can honestly say they would now be preparing to spend maybe the first of six or seven Christmases away from our family, doing jail time, if we could have got on a plane?

    Bring a civil action in the US. The measure of damages should be set in accordance with US justice - including punitive damages for running away - and be paid to the UK family by the US Govt. It wouldn't lessen their loss, but the large sum handed over might lessen their sense of grievance.
    Could'nt agree more with that, I've driven extensively in France and in my own RHD UK car many years ago, drove merrily off on the wrong side for 50 yds or so (by the grace of God without incident) - it's extremely easy to do. When driving a LHD hired car, however, the constant slight "unusualness" of the different layout of the car I find keeps you much safer. Overtaking is also very hazardous in an RHD card in Europe.
    Clearly one is more likely to have an accident with a foreign car, but drivers know that risk when they drive one. Im not an expert but doubt her sentence would be anything like 6 or 7 years. If they could have got it down to "Careless or inconsiderate driving falling not far short of dangerous driving" the average is 15 months custody so serving less than half a year.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,247
    edited December 2019

    Jonathan said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.
    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
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    I have pondered widely about what new trade deal we could sign that would make the performance of my company better. In medical technology the only big markets are USA, Europe, China and possibly Japan. The USA is the largest market in the world and the idea we could change it is laughable. We will always be a rule taker as we are today. Europe we were a leading player in but our influence has already gone and might take years to come back even with a Euro positive government. China where do I start. My experience always harks back to having my life threatened by triads in a Chinese 5 star hotel as I wanted to close down a company counterfeiting the goods I was selling. Japan I love but is so insular that no-one can do anything except watch from the outside.

    No the reality is we will operate as a standalone small player like Canada, South Korea or Australia. The price of goods will go up and choice will come down. It will be easier to form a monopoly or oligopoly so profits may still be found. In a few niche products my company's UK market share is already close to 50%. I have put through some price rises of 5-10% for next year with almost no feedback

    I like Alastair was amazed that so little debate about the economy was undertaken during the election. In Germany the troubles of the motor industry are a daily debate but the potential destruction of the UK industry seems to be met with a shrug of the shoulders. The only action of BJ has been to cut business rates for small shops which is rearranging deckchairs activity and will have almost zero impact on our economy.

    I still think there are some people who believe in the wall of money and the wonderful new trade deals theories. I was amazed to hear my finance director tell my team he expected us to prepare for a large rise in sterling after the election. While he is normally spot on in this case I rightly ignored him.

    The country may just accept gradual decline and has done that before. Then again parts of it may start causing trouble. London, Scotland and NI are where the future of the country may change. I saw today that the Times leader tried to address this today. Its idea that the Scots will just settle down I think is naïve.





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    rpjs said:

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    So the one that will sell off the NHS and sell Britain poisoned food[1], the one that will require the UK to suppress support for Hong Kong or the one that will undermine the promised hard-line on immigration.

    Which is your preferred one?

    [1] I live in the US, and yes, food here is frequently poisoned: there are constant e-coli, salmonella and listeria related food recalls.
    Project Fear. Don't believe the scare stories. Funny how the Canadians can have "socialised healthcare" while being members of NAFTA let alone have a simple trade deal with the USA. 🙄
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    eekeek Posts: 26,553

    rpjs said:

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    So the one that will sell off the NHS and sell Britain poisoned food[1], the one that will require the UK to suppress support for Hong Kong or the one that will undermine the promised hard-line on immigration.

    Which is your preferred one?

    [1] I live in the US, and yes, food here is frequently poisoned: there are constant e-coli, salmonella and listeria related food recalls.
    Project Fear. Don't believe the scare stories. Funny how the Canadians can have "socialised healthcare" while being members of NAFTA let alone have a simple trade deal with the USA. 🙄
    We aren't joining NAFTA and NAFTA was negotiated under a president who understood that trade wasn't a zero-sum game.
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    FlannerFlanner Posts: 436
    rpjs said:

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future



    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    Neither China nor India do real deals with anyone. There's a really good reason why the EU's been trying to do a deal with India for the past 20 years: India REFUSED to make any of the reciprocal concessions Britain asked for.

    Now Modi won't even do trade deals with China or Japan. He simply doesn't do deals anymore. "Make in India" is his only commercial policy.

    As for America. All it wants is for us to let their drugs in without negotiation (US law bans Federal institutions from negotiating drug prices down, and the Dept of Commerce has repeatedly made the same demand for any US-UK treaty) and to waive our food laws so our farmers won't be able to sell to Europe.
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    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
    That's because you're not seeing the sunlit uplands. 17.4 million people didn't vote to be a little bit worse off, we can see the upside even if you can't. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
    That's because you're not seeing the sunlit uplands. 17.4 million people didn't vote to be a little bit worse off, we can see the upside even if you can't. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
    Actually they did... if they're lucky. More likely they voted to be a lot worse off.
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    You & I have crossed swords before.I do really wonder what planet you are on.How you are given so much oxygen of publicity on this site is beyond me.The man has a mandate to govern how he sees fit in the light of a substantial majority.He is hardly likely to waste this opportunity to redress the balance of society as it stands.He has only just been re-elected for Christ's sake.Get a life.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,247
    edited December 2019

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
    That's because you're not seeing the sunlit uplands. 17.4 million people didn't vote to be a little bit worse off, we can see the upside even if you can't. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
    It would be really good if someone could explain the upside. All we get is we voted for it do we must do it. Fair enough. It will happen. But how am I, my family or my country supposed to be better off?

    Any FTA will be inferior to single market membership. The political freedoms will be outweighed by the loss of the influence inside the EU, which whatever we do is the dominant economy on our doorstep.

    What am I missing? Sincerely, I would like to understand the appeal. I am in a minority. The argument ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is not hugely convincing.
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,811

    ClippP said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
    Well, Theresa May created.
    Although your LibDems played their part. And have paid the price.
    Going backwards in seats. Who would have thought? *chortle*
    It`s always an uphill struggle playing honestly against a gang of cheats and liars, Mr Mark.
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    The problem in the world is that people are living in a bubble and are brainwashed.

    Any chance you could vote to leave the UK and remove a millstone from around our necks? That would be lovely, thanks awfully.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,326

    Anyhoo wish me luck, I'm about use the train to get from Manchester to Sheffield, on a Friday afternoon.

    Manchester to Piccadilly is just under forty miles.

    Forty miles.

    I do approximately four times that distance. Twice a week.

    Wuss.

    #pleasekeeppublishingmyarticles... :)
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    I am not sure next year will be exciting, but it will definitely be fascinating.

    The promises Johnson has made are not all deliverable, so it will be interesting to see which ones fall by the wayside. I suspect it will be those relating to balancing the books as they are the easiest to break. He has to deliver on the public spending pledges. It would be political suicide not to.

    Labour members have a chance to at least begin to rebuild the party by rejecting the factionalism of the hard left in the leadership election. Anyone but Rebecca Long Bailey and Clive Lewis would be a step towards that - though it is going to be a long, hard journey. That's why the comforty blanket may be too tough to throw off.

    There is clearly going to be an ongoing confrontation between English naitonalism and Scottish nationalism inside the Westminster and Edinburgh Parliaments, on the airwaves and possibly on the streets. Too much Johnsonian goading of the Scots could end up backfiring. He will need to be careful.

    And there are indications of tectonic plates beginning to move in Northern Ireland. Unionism has a very tough task there. I wonder how much longer the tide can be held back. Again, much will depend on how Johnson plays things.

    I have found myself sleeping a lot better this last week. The unceertainty is over. That is a good thing, I can tell you! We are starting a new chapter in this country's history. I suspect it will be a pretty difficult one, but you never know.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
    Well, Theresa May created.
    Although your LibDems played their part. And have paid the price.
    Going backwards in seats. Who would have thought? *chortle*
    It`s always an uphill struggle playing honestly against a gang of cheats and liars, Mr Mark.
    Do you have a bar chart to help prove your case?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
    Well, Theresa May created.
    Although your LibDems played their part. And have paid the price.
    Going backwards in seats. Who would have thought? *chortle*
    It`s always an uphill struggle playing honestly against a gang of cheats and liars, Mr Mark.
    Tell me. The amount of money thrown by your central office at trying to keep Dr. Sarah in place.....
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    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
    That's because you're not seeing the sunlit uplands. 17.4 million people didn't vote to be a little bit worse off, we can see the upside even if you can't. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
    It would be really good if someone could explain the upside. All we get is we voted for it do we must do it. Fair enough. It will happen. But how am I, my family or my country supposed to be better off?

    Any FTA will be inferior to single market membership. The political freedoms will be outweighed by the loss of the influence inside the EU, which whatever we do is the dominant economy on our doorstep.

    What am I missing? Sincerely, I would like to understand the appeal. I am in a minority. The argument ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is not hugely convincing.
    1: We will be able to elect MPs responsible for all of our laws.
    2: If the laws passed aren't to our liking we can eject them and reverse them (not possible in the EU).
    3: Our MPs will have nowhere to hide.
    4: We will be able to do trade deals with whomever we want to.
    5: We will be severing the cords tying us to a sclerotic and shrinking continent.
    6: All developed non-EU nations have grown as well or better than we have since the EEC became the EU.

    That's for starters off the top of my head.
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    MangoMango Posts: 1,014


    Labour members have a chance to at least begin to rebuild the party by rejecting the factionalism of the hard left in the leadership election. Anyone but Rebecca Long Bailey and Clive Lewis would be a step towards that - though it is going to be a long, hard journey. That's why the comforty blanket may be too tough to throw off.

    Clive Lewis can at least say the words "electoral reform" without getting a nosebleed. He may not be right about everything, but most of the other candidates are likely to be wrong about virtually everything.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,247
    edited December 2019

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
    That's because you're not seeing the sunlit uplands. 17.4 million people didn't vote to be a little bit worse off, we can see the upside even if you can't. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
    It would be really good if someone could explain the upside. All we get is we voted for it do we must do it. Fair enough. It will happen. But how am I, my family or my country supposed to be better off?

    Any FTA will be inferior to single market membership. The political freedoms will be outweighed by the loss of the influence inside the EU, which whatever we do is the dominant economy on our doorstep.

    What am I missing? Sincerely, I would like to understand the appeal. I am in a minority. The argument ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is not hugely convincing.
    1: We will be able to elect MPs responsible for all of our laws.
    2: If the laws passed aren't to our liking we can eject them and reverse them (not possible in the EU).
    3: Our MPs will have nowhere to hide.
    4: We will be able to do trade deals with whomever we want to.
    5: We will be severing the cords tying us to a sclerotic and shrinking continent.
    6: All developed non-EU nations have grown as well or better than we have since the EEC became the EU.

    That's for starters off the top of my head.
    Thanks for sharing. Appreciate. Won’t argue with you, but having not drunk the Brexit Kool Aid I am not convinced by any of those points. Feels like thin gruel.

    Would like to see the upsides, it just seems to make life harder.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,770
    edited December 2019

    Brom said:

    But six Labour MPs voted for the plan too:

    Sarah Champion - MP for Rotheram
    Rosie Cooper - MP for West Lancashire
    Jon Cruddas - MP for Dagenham and Rainham
    Emma Lewell-Buck - MP for South Shields
    Grahame Morris - MP for Easington
    Toby Perkins - MP for Chesterfield
    A further 32 Labour MPs abstained in the vote - despite Jeremy Corbyn telling his party to vote against it.

    They include three shadow cabinet members:

    John Trickett - MP for Hewmsworth
    Ian Lavery - MP for Wansbeck
    Andrew Gwynne - MP for Denton and Reddish

    Merry Christmas to all

    So which Conservatives did not vote for it? Would there be pairing on a vote like this?
    One of those who did not vote for it was my MP Caroline Johnson who has long been an ERG member. No indications as to why.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308
    So, I'm on holiday (yay), and got influenza (boo).

    I've been prescribed Tamiflu, and the doctor asked me "would you like a codeine prescription to help with the coughing". Now, I know codeine is a cough suppressant, but should US doctors really be so enthusiastic about prescribing it to people?
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    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
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    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.
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    MangoMango Posts: 1,014


    1: We will be able to elect MPs responsible for all of our laws.
    2: If the laws passed aren't to our liking we can eject them and reverse them (not possible in the EU).
    3: Our MPs will have nowhere to hide.
    4: We will be able to do trade deals with whomever we want to.
    5: We will be severing the cords tying us to a sclerotic and shrinking continent.
    6: All developed non-EU nations have grown as well or better than we have since the EEC became the EU.

    1. I think we define responsibility differently.
    2. Ejections don't seem to happen very often, do they?
    3. Except in safe seats.
    4. With less negotiating power, worse terms, and more historical baggage.
    5. Europe grows more slowly because it is richer. This "sclerotic" bollocks is an utter misrepresentation.
    6. Resource economies like Australia and Canada? Good luck copying that. Japan? No. USA? Lot of population growth in those GDP figures. South Korea? Ok, let's talk.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,476

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
    Well, Theresa May created.
    Although your LibDems played their part. And have paid the price.
    Going backwards in seats. Who would have thought? *chortle*
    It`s always an uphill struggle playing honestly against a gang of cheats and liars, Mr Mark.
    Tell me. The amount of money thrown by your central office at trying to keep Dr. Sarah in place.....
    and not much of a personal vote either by the looks of it...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308

    rpjs said:

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    So the one that will sell off the NHS and sell Britain poisoned food[1], the one that will require the UK to suppress support for Hong Kong or the one that will undermine the promised hard-line on immigration.

    Which is your preferred one?

    [1] I live in the US, and yes, food here is frequently poisoned: there are constant e-coli, salmonella and listeria related food recalls.
    Project Fear. Don't believe the scare stories. Funny how the Canadians can have "socialised healthcare" while being members of NAFTA let alone have a simple trade deal with the USA. 🙄
    Sure, but don't forget that Canada is not allowed to pass laws regarding labeling of GM foods, because that constitutes a non-tariff barrier.

  • Options
    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    "expect immigration to be clamped down upon hard."

    Don't make me laugh.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Brom said:

    But six Labour MPs voted for the plan too:

    Sarah Champion - MP for Rotheram
    Rosie Cooper - MP for West Lancashire
    Jon Cruddas - MP for Dagenham and Rainham
    Emma Lewell-Buck - MP for South Shields
    Grahame Morris - MP for Easington
    Toby Perkins - MP for Chesterfield
    A further 32 Labour MPs abstained in the vote - despite Jeremy Corbyn telling his party to vote against it.

    They include three shadow cabinet members:

    John Trickett - MP for Hewmsworth
    Ian Lavery - MP for Wansbeck
    Andrew Gwynne - MP for Denton and Reddish

    Merry Christmas to all

    So which Conservatives did not vote for it? Would there be pairing on a vote like this?
    One of those who did not vote for it was my MP Caroline Johnson who has long been an ERG member. No indications as to why.
    One would assume that permission to absent oneself from Government votes for whatever reason (family funerals, urgent constituency business, a pre-booked appointment at the hairdresser) would be fairly easy to come by under the new dispensation. It's not as if everything single vote is needed anymore.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,733

    I have pondered widely about what new trade deal we could sign that would make the performance of my company better. In medical technology the only big markets are USA, Europe, China and possibly Japan. The USA is the largest market in the world and the idea we could change it is laughable. We will always be a rule taker as we are today. Europe we were a leading player in but our influence has already gone and might take years to come back even with a Euro positive government. China where do I start. My experience always harks back to having my life threatened by triads in a Chinese 5 star hotel as I wanted to close down a company counterfeiting the goods I was selling. Japan I love but is so insular that no-one can do anything except watch from the outside.

    No the reality is we will operate as a standalone small player like Canada, South Korea or Australia. The price of goods will go up and choice will come down. It will be easier to form a monopoly or oligopoly so profits may still be found. In a few niche products my company's UK market share is already close to 50%. I have put through some price rises of 5-10% for next year with almost no feedback

    I like Alastair was amazed that so little debate about the economy was undertaken during the election. In Germany the troubles of the motor industry are a daily debate but the potential destruction of the UK industry seems to be met with a shrug of the shoulders. The only action of BJ has been to cut business rates for small shops which is rearranging deckchairs activity and will have almost zero impact on our economy.

    I still think there are some people who believe in the wall of money and the wonderful new trade deals theories. I was amazed to hear my finance director tell my team he expected us to prepare for a large rise in sterling after the election. While he is normally spot on in this case I rightly ignored him.

    The country may just accept gradual decline and has done that before. Then again parts of it may start causing trouble. London, Scotland and NI are where the future of the country may change. I saw today that the Times leader tried to address this today. Its idea that the Scots will just settle down I think is naïve.

    May have to accept gradual decline? Gosh. Someone's clearly been asleep since 1850.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,194
    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    So the one that will sell off the NHS and sell Britain poisoned food[1], the one that will require the UK to suppress support for Hong Kong or the one that will undermine the promised hard-line on immigration.

    Which is your preferred one?

    [1] I live in the US, and yes, food here is frequently poisoned: there are constant e-coli, salmonella and listeria related food recalls.
    Project Fear. Don't believe the scare stories. Funny how the Canadians can have "socialised healthcare" while being members of NAFTA let alone have a simple trade deal with the USA. 🙄
    Sure, but don't forget that Canada is not allowed to pass laws regarding labeling of GM foods, because that constitutes a non-tariff barrier.

    In what sense are they not allowed to?

    Presumably they've agreed not to?

    These are different things.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
    That's because you're not seeing the sunlit uplands. 17.4 million people didn't vote to be a little bit worse off, we can see the upside even if you can't. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
    I voted for Leave because I believe that the EU diminishes the democratic accountability of our politicians. It allows them to always blame someone else rather than taking responsibiity.

    The problem is that, once people "pick a side" then they will tend to believe all the good things about their side, and none of the bad. The reality is that the EU was a mix of good and bad things, and (to me) the bad outweighed the good.

    Take free trade. It is highly unlikely we will have as free trade with as many consumers in five years as we do now. This is something I say with regret. The world is - simply - not full of free traders. If it was, there would be Japan-USA free trade deals, and Russia-India, etc. The reality is that most countries are pretty protectionist, especially of sensitive industries like banking and law.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,194

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    So the one that will sell off the NHS and sell Britain poisoned food[1], the one that will require the UK to suppress support for Hong Kong or the one that will undermine the promised hard-line on immigration.

    Which is your preferred one?

    [1] I live in the US, and yes, food here is frequently poisoned: there are constant e-coli, salmonella and listeria related food recalls.
    Project Fear. Don't believe the scare stories. Funny how the Canadians can have "socialised healthcare" while being members of NAFTA let alone have a simple trade deal with the USA. 🙄
    Sure, but don't forget that Canada is not allowed to pass laws regarding labeling of GM foods, because that constitutes a non-tariff barrier.

    Also Canada has a single payer healthcare system, the money is public but the providers are private.
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    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    From the Conservative manifesto the Government won a majority on a week ago:

    "We aim to have 80 per cent of UK trade covered by free trade agreements within the next three years, starting with the USA, Australia, New Zealand and Japan.
    These will be negotiated in parallel with our EU deal."

    https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative 2019 Manifesto.pdf
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
    That's because you're not seeing the sunlit uplands. 17.4 million people didn't vote to be a little bit worse off, we can see the upside even if you can't. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
    I voted for Leave because I believe that the EU diminishes the democratic accountability of our politicians. It allows them to always blame someone else rather than taking responsibiity.

    The problem is that, once people "pick a side" then they will tend to believe all the good things about their side, and none of the bad. The reality is that the EU was a mix of good and bad things, and (to me) the bad outweighed the good.

    Take free trade. It is highly unlikely we will have as free trade with as many consumers in five years as we do now. This is something I say with regret. The world is - simply - not full of free traders. If it was, there would be Japan-USA free trade deals, and Russia-India, etc. The reality is that most countries are pretty protectionist, especially of sensitive industries like banking and law.
    Well said, I dont agree on the bad outweighing the good but it is remarkable, even incredible, how the majority of the country seem to believe that either everything about the EU is terrible or that there are zero benefits to Brexit. It suggests both a lack of rigour and that most peoples thought processes on Brexit (on both sides) are based primarily on emotion rather than reason, logic and data.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Dadge said:

    "expect immigration to be clamped down upon hard."

    Don't make me laugh.

    Quite. There is a reason that the May era net immigration target has not reappeared.

    The sum total effect of the revision of immigration policy is likely to be that permanent residency for seasonal agricultural workers will be replaced by temporary work permits, and the flow of surplus cafe baristas, hand car washers and Big Issue sellers will be cut off.

    A sensible policy rather than an open door should neutralise immigration as a political issue. It was an irrelevance pre-2004, and will become so again.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308
    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    So the one that will sell off the NHS and sell Britain poisoned food[1], the one that will require the UK to suppress support for Hong Kong or the one that will undermine the promised hard-line on immigration.

    Which is your preferred one?

    [1] I live in the US, and yes, food here is frequently poisoned: there are constant e-coli, salmonella and listeria related food recalls.
    Project Fear. Don't believe the scare stories. Funny how the Canadians can have "socialised healthcare" while being members of NAFTA let alone have a simple trade deal with the USA. 🙄
    Sure, but don't forget that Canada is not allowed to pass laws regarding labeling of GM foods, because that constitutes a non-tariff barrier.

    In what sense are they not allowed to?

    Presumably they've agreed not to?

    These are different things.
    See Monsanto Vs Province of Quebec. A US ISDS tribunal overruled the law.
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    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Saw them play in Brum, mid 80's. Arrived very late on stage, having been to see Tranmere play first....
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    edited December 2019

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    I think it has good parts and bad parts. I don't hold people in sufficient contempt to think that the public is brainwashed by the media into thinking it is the best. Even when people don't think their country is the best they often hold it in higher personal regard. I know too many people who say they cannot think of a single good thing about the country to buy the nonsense that we are brainwashed by the media.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Drutt said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    On any foreign policy point, the UK either agrees with the EU27 position or it doesn't. If it does agree, then it hardly matters whether we're in or out. If it doesn't agree, membership means our voice is lost.
    I think Europe is going to get rapidly superseded in defence, security and foreign policy by a global Western alliance over the next 10-15 years. NATO will be superseded by the GDA (global democratic alliance).

    This USA v. USE rivalry, whilst collaborating to keep Russia out, will be see for the anachronism it already is.
    With pragmatic leadership in Washington, London, Paris, Berlin, Canberra, Seoul and Tokyo, that would be a great outcome.

    But it does require leadership from the US, simply because they are so much bigger than any of the other players.

    Which in turn requires the US to realise that its trade imbalances are cocreated. So long as the US government pursues policies that encourage consumption (such as big tax cuts and spending increases), then that deficit will persist. The US needs to work with Germany, getting them to spend more, while agreeing policies that increase the US household savings rate. The problem is that that would (unless very carefully managed) result in a US recession.
    The US needs to recognise it's no longer a unilateral superpower. Those days are gone. However, can still be a very strong leader (and perhaps the only leader) of a multilateral Western alliance, working in concert with others.

    In general, the West needs to move away from so much consumption. I think that will happen for all sorts of reasons anyway - environmental, geopolitical and cultural - and think about its values, as much as it does about money.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,247
    edited December 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
    In what way? Don’t see it. Would like to see it. Nothing to be excited about. At best we’ll all only be a little bit worse off and Britain will be a little less powerful. That’s as good as it gets as far as I can see. The best we can hope for.
    That's because you're not seeing the sunlit uplands. 17.4 million people didn't vote to be a little bit worse off, we can see the upside even if you can't. Strap in and enjoy the ride.
    I voted for Leave because I believe that the EU diminishes the democratic accountability of our politicians. It allows them to always blame someone else rather than taking responsibiity.

    The problem is that, once people "pick a side" then they will tend to believe all the good things about their side, and none of the bad. The reality is that the EU was a mix of good and bad things, and (to me) the bad outweighed the good.

    Take free trade. It is highly unlikely we will have as free trade with as many consumers in five years as we do now. This is something I say with regret. The world is - simply - not full of free traders. If it was, there would be Japan-USA free trade deals, and Russia-India, etc. The reality is that most countries are pretty protectionist, especially of sensitive industries like banking and law.
    I genuinely can’t see leaving the EU improving the democratic accountability of our politicians at all. They will continue to blame the EU from the outside and use every means they have to escape scrutiny. Outside the EU social media will still be a cess pit manipulated by Svengalis and Boris will still not be interviewed by Andrew Neil.

    I tipped into remain because I concluded that Westminster/Whitehall was broken beyond repair.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    I think it has good parts and bad parts. I don't hold people in sufficient contempt to think that the public is brainwashed by the media into thinking it is the best. Even when people don't think their country is the best they often hold it in higher personal regard. I know too many people who say they cannot think of a single good thing about the country to buy the nonsense that we are brainwashed by the media.
    My point is it's not in the top 20.
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,811

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
    Well, Theresa May created.
    Although your LibDems played their part. And have paid the price.
    Going backwards in seats. Who would have thought? *chortle*
    It`s always an uphill struggle playing honestly against a gang of cheats and liars, Mr Mark.
    Tell me. The amount of money thrown by your central office at trying to keep Dr. Sarah in place.....
    Completely within the rules that you Tories drew up, I thought......
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    TheGreenMachineTheGreenMachine Posts: 1,072
    edited December 2019
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    I think it has good parts and bad parts. I don't hold people in sufficient contempt to think that the public is brainwashed by the media into thinking it is the best. Even when people don't think their country is the best they often hold it in higher personal regard. I know too many people who say they cannot think of a single good thing about the country to buy the nonsense that we are brainwashed by the media.
    In terms of main cities, it's finished.

    Very high crime rates.
    Drugs
    Poverty
    Etc
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
    Well, Theresa May created.
    Although your LibDems played their part. And have paid the price.
    Going backwards in seats. Who would have thought? *chortle*
    It`s always an uphill struggle playing honestly against a gang of cheats and liars, Mr Mark.
    Tell me. The amount of money thrown by your central office at trying to keep Dr. Sarah in place.....
    Completely within the rules that you Tories drew up, I thought......
    That will no doubt be adjudicated upon.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    I think it has good parts and bad parts. I don't hold people in sufficient contempt to think that the public is brainwashed by the media into thinking it is the best. Even when people don't think their country is the best they often hold it in higher personal regard. I know too many people who say they cannot think of a single good thing about the country to buy the nonsense that we are brainwashed by the media.
    My point is it's not in the top 20.
    Well then perhaps you should have said that if it was your point rather than saying the media is brainwashing people into not thinking it is the best. I'm not even sure on what metrics one would decide a country is 'good' or 'bad' as there are plenty of aspects on which we are definitely in the top 20, so it depends heavily on what weight you assign to various other things, making the media conspiracy theory aspect even sillier.

    And since that media conspiracy was the sole means by which you chose to express the point, I think it safe to assume that was your strongest argument.
  • Options
    TheGreenMachineTheGreenMachine Posts: 1,072
    edited December 2019
    @kle4

    Trump is always saying they're the greatest.

    Lifestyle is definitely a factor used to determine beautiful countries.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Anyway, all I want for a Christmas is a Dukla Praque away strip.....
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
  • Options
    TheGreenMachineTheGreenMachine Posts: 1,072
    edited December 2019
    @noneoftheabove

    I wouldn't say fabulous but Ireland is better. FACT NOT OPINION.

    You also have a countless list of others, Sweden, Denmark etc.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,194

    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Anyway, all I want for a Christmas is a Dukla Praque away strip.....
    'The Men They Couldn't Hang' tin disc heading back to the auction house then.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.

    It is exciting.
    In
    That's .
    I

    The problem is that, once people "pick a side" then they will tend to believe all the good things about their side, and none of the bad. The reality is that the EU was a mix of good and bad things, and (to me) the bad outweighed the good.

    Take free trade. It is highly unlikely we will have as free trade with as many consumers in five years as we do now. This is something I say with regret. The world is - simply - not full of free traders. If it was, there would be Japan-USA free trade deals, and Russia-India, etc. The reality is that most countries are pretty protectionist, especially of sensitive industries like banking and law.
    If we're leaving, I favour a pretty hard exit in services.

    Yes, that will make it harder to sell financial and insurance products, and legal and professional services, into the EU. But, I don't think it's a big problem. The City has created way more jobs than it's lost in the last three years, all of our banks pass the most extreme stress tests and London is sufficiently big and dominant enough to develop new global markets very quickly. It's probably even big and close enough to the continent to still exert a strong gravitational pull on Europe even totally outside the EU. Nothing significant is going to decamp to Paris, Frankfurt or Zurich, no matter how much some in the EU may wish it.

    By contrast, whilst we were members of the EU, as Sir Ivan Rogers has said, we had to fight regular rearguard actions to protect the City against the 'regulatory initiatives' of the Commission. It makes no sense to be beholden to that now for a just a bit more access and flexibility on "passporting"; we need full regulatory independence of all those services here in the UK.

    Interestingly, Theresa May already reached this conclusion. In her much maligned WA, this course of action was very clear if you looked properly at it.
  • Options
    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Still going, I saw them this year in Holmfirth. As the friend who I attended with said, they've learnt to play since the Peel years. I'd recommend the new album.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Anyway, all I want for a Christmas is a Dukla Praque away strip.....
    'The Men They Couldn't Hang' tin disc heading back to the auction house then.
    Loved the poster that said "The Men They Couldn't Hang - plus support"......
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    So, I'm on holiday (yay), and got influenza (boo).

    I've been prescribed Tamiflu, and the doctor asked me "would you like a codeine prescription to help with the coughing". Now, I know codeine is a cough suppressant, but should US doctors really be so enthusiastic about prescribing it to people?

    Codeine for coughing? WTAF!? What's wrong with a lozenge or cough syrup?

    Codeine should be an absolute last resort for major pain.
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    The reason people think its worse than it is, is mostly 24hr news. Today we hear relentlessly about every little thing that goes wrong.

    Simple, cost free policy to improve our lives significantly.

    Twice a week BBC1 makes it news bulletins good news stories only, regardless of events. Other news shows on other channels are available for those wanting yet more bad or neutral news. People would feel better, be more positive to each other, relationships would last longer, people would spend more, all just from a simple cost neutral change.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,194
    Sir_Geoff said:

    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Still going, I saw them this year in Holmfirth. As the friend who I attended with said, they've learnt to play since the Peel years. I'd recommend the new album.

    Well hat's off.

    I was guessing that MarqueeMark hadn't seen them live, but perhaps he has. If there are two of you that's a pretty impressive representation for the band.

    I think it might rather amuse me to buy my first album by them some 40 years after I first heard of them.
  • Options
    Twitter

    John McDonnell has told shadow cabinet colleagues to stop asking him "are you alright?", telling them:

    "Normally when a socialist revolution fails they all get taken to a football stadium and shot, at least that hasn’t happened this time.”

  • Options

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    The reason people think its worse than it is, is mostly 24hr news. Today we hear relentlessly about every little thing that goes wrong.

    Simple, cost free policy to improve our lives significantly.

    Twice a week BBC1 makes it news bulletins good news stories only, regardless of events. Other news shows on other channels are available for those wanting yet more bad or neutral news. People would feel better, be more positive to each other, relationships would last longer, people would spend more, all just from a simple cost neutral change.
    Yes that's probably right about the news, therefore they're still brainwashing people.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460

    @noneoftheabove

    I wouldn't say fabulous but Ireland is better. FACT NOT OPINION.

    You also have a countless list of others, Sweden, Denmark etc.

    You do know that saying something is 'fact not opinion' does not change that a subjective view on such matters, as there is not single objective means of judgement, is indeed still opinion and not fact? And since you say we're not in the top 20 I assume you place is in the top 30, so it is not a countless list either.

    But all japes aside, I come back to my original question on this which is what even is your point? Even the people who do say this is the greatest country in the world acknowledge we have serious problems which need to be addressed, but you are speaking like everyone should just bemoan all the bad things because bad things exist, never mind anything else. Oh I am so devastated that the UK might not be the greatest place on earth.
  • Options

    Twitter

    John McDonnell has told shadow cabinet colleagues to stop asking him "are you alright?", telling them:

    "Normally when a socialist revolution fails they all get taken to a football stadium and shot, at least that hasn’t happened this time.”

    Which country or century does he think he's living in?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,247

    Twitter

    John McDonnell has told shadow cabinet colleagues to stop asking him "are you alright?", telling them:

    "Normally when a socialist revolution fails they all get taken to a football stadium and shot, at least that hasn’t happened this time.”

    McDonnell has been pretty good post defeat. Respect.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    edited December 2019

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    The reason people think its worse than it is, is mostly 24hr news. Today we hear relentlessly about every little thing that goes wrong.

    Simple, cost free policy to improve our lives significantly.

    Twice a week BBC1 makes it news bulletins good news stories only, regardless of events. Other news shows on other channels are available for those wanting yet more bad or neutral news. People would feel better, be more positive to each other, relationships would last longer, people would spend more, all just from a simple cost neutral change.
    Yes that's probably right about the news, therefore they're still brainwashing people.
    Yes, news updates means people are being brainwashed. Are you 12?! This is quite the silliest discussion I've seen in PB in months, and bear in mind we had a General Election in that period.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    According the @SeanT people are only depressed if they can't get drugs
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,194

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Anyway, all I want for a Christmas is a Dukla Praque away strip.....
    'The Men They Couldn't Hang' tin disc heading back to the auction house then.
    Loved the poster that said "The Men They Couldn't Hang - plus support"......
    You're clearly well beyond my token knowledge of these things. Very enjoyable memories - and possibly now to be rekindled as I take up Sir Geoff's tip and listen to some Half Man Half Biscuit.

    The festive fifty was a great thing at this time of year.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    According the @SeanT people are only depressed if they can't get drugs
    They just make you worse, but I know I'll see your face again.
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,811

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
    Well, Theresa May created.
    Although your LibDems played their part. And have paid the price.
    Going backwards in seats. Who would have thought? *chortle*
    It`s always an uphill struggle playing honestly against a gang of cheats and liars, Mr Mark.
    Tell me. The amount of money thrown by your central office at trying to keep Dr. Sarah in place.....
    Completely within the rules that you Tories drew up, I thought......
    That will no doubt be adjudicated upon.
    Not under this regime, it won`t!
  • Options
    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Still going, I saw them this year in Holmfirth. As the friend who I attended with said, they've learnt to play since the Peel years. I'd recommend the new album.

    Well hat's off.

    I was guessing that MarqueeMark hadn't seen them live, but perhaps he has. If there are two of you that's a pretty impressive representation for the band.

    I think it might rather amuse me to buy my first album by them some 40 years after I first heard of them.
    I came to them slightly later, and only rediscovered them in the last few years, and at the gig felt like I was one of a handful who hand't seen them dozens of times. One of those areas where the internet age never fails to amaze with its capacity to open up a window in the world of those truly dedicated to such niches. In HMHB's case, I think the quality of the social observation is what keeps the dedicated fan base going.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    @kle4

    Trump is always saying they're the greatest.

    Lifestyle is definitely a factor used to determine beautiful countries.

    Countries that seem to rate highly in best places to live scores also seem to rate highly on dull as fuck scores. Switzerland take a bow.

    Ireland has its pluses, but it is remarkably parochial. D4 runs the country, it invariably appears.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,588
    Mango said:


    1: We will be able to elect MPs responsible for all of our laws.
    2: If the laws passed aren't to our liking we can eject them and reverse them (not possible in the EU).
    3: Our MPs will have nowhere to hide.
    4: We will be able to do trade deals with whomever we want to.
    5: We will be severing the cords tying us to a sclerotic and shrinking continent.
    6: All developed non-EU nations have grown as well or better than we have since the EEC became the EU.

    1. I think we define responsibility differently.
    2. Ejections don't seem to happen very often, do they?
    3. Except in safe seats.
    4. With less negotiating power, worse terms, and more historical baggage.
    5. Europe grows more slowly because it is richer. This "sclerotic" bollocks is an utter misrepresentation.
    6. Resource economies like Australia and Canada? Good luck copying that. Japan? No. USA? Lot of population growth in those GDP figures. South Korea? Ok, let's talk.
    Not great counter arguments to my mind.

    1) So what
    2) The key word is 'can'. Anyway change of governments happen quite a lot and when ever we want them to in the election cycle.
    3) Safe seats don't happen by act of God. They happen by voters' choice. Anyway, not long ago Enfield Southgate was safe Tory and Sedgefield was safe Labour
    4) So you say. Wait and see. Other countries our size manage.
    5) You can argue about words but the point is well made. Other parts of the world are an immense market opportunity.
    6) It's a generalisation but reasonably soundly based.

  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Freggles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rpjs said:

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    So the one that will sell off the NHS and sell Britain poisoned food[1], the one that will require the UK to suppress support for Hong Kong or the one that will undermine the promised hard-line on immigration.

    Which is your preferred one?

    [1] I live in the US, and yes, food here is frequently poisoned: there are constant e-coli, salmonella and listeria related food recalls.
    Project Fear. Don't believe the scare stories. Funny how the Canadians can have "socialised healthcare" while being members of NAFTA let alone have a simple trade deal with the USA. 🙄
    Sure, but don't forget that Canada is not allowed to pass laws regarding labeling of GM foods, because that constitutes a non-tariff barrier.

    Also Canada has a single payer healthcare system, the money is public but the providers are private.
    Well, strictly speaking it's a mixture of public, private and charitable. But it is a single-payer system and I think I'm correct in saying that health providers in Canada are not allowed to charge outside the single-payer system, i.e. you can't buy healthcare with your own money in Canada even if you want to.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032

    Twitter

    John McDonnell has told shadow cabinet colleagues to stop asking him "are you alright?", telling them:

    "Normally when a socialist revolution fails they all get taken to a football stadium and shot, at least that hasn’t happened this time.”

    What a twat McDonnell is. He lives in a fully-functioning parliamentary democracy, not under the Arentinian junta. He belittles their efforts, their torture, their death for their cause, with his pathetic whining.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,018
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    According the @SeanT people are only depressed if they can't get drugs
    Why not give the codeine a crack ? So long as you don't stay on it more than 3 or 4 days you shouldn't get addicted. It's probably more effective pain relief than the Tamiflu is at fighting flu.
    Why not feel good whilst you're laid up ill :)
  • Options
    matt said:

    @kle4

    Trump is always saying they're the greatest.

    Lifestyle is definitely a factor used to determine beautiful countries.

    Countries that seem to rate highly in best places to live scores also seem to rate highly on dull as fuck scores. Switzerland take a bow.

    Ireland has its pluses, but it is remarkably parochial. D4 runs the country, it invariably appears.
    Switzerland sounds Good but I've never been.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,733

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten

    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.

    It is exciting.
    In
    That's .
    I

    The problem is that, once people "pick a side" then they will tend to believe all the good things about their side, and none of the bad. The reality is that the EU was a mix of good and bad things, and (to me) the bad outweighed the good.

    Take free trade. It is highly unlikely we will have as free trade with as many consumers in five years as we do now. This is something I say with regret. The world is - simply - not full of free traders. If it was, there would be Japan-USA free trade deals, and Russia-India, etc. The reality is that most countries are pretty protectionist, especially of sensitive industries like banking and law.
    If we're leaving, I favour a pretty hard exit in services.

    Yes, that will make it harder to sell financial and insurance products, and legal and professional services, into the EU. But, I don't think it's a big problem. The City has created way more jobs than it's lost in the last three years, all of our banks pass the most extreme stress tests and London is sufficiently big and dominant enough to develop new global markets very quickly. It's probably even big and close enough to the continent to still exert a strong gravitational pull on Europe even totally outside the EU. Nothing significant is going to decamp to Paris, Frankfurt or Zurich, no matter how much some in the EU may wish it.

    By contrast, whilst we were members of the EU, as Sir Ivan Rogers has said, we had to fight regular rearguard actions to protect the City against the 'regulatory initiatives' of the Commission. It makes no sense to be beholden to that now for a just a bit more access and flexibility on "passporting"; we need full regulatory independence of all those services here in the UK.

    Interestingly, Theresa May already reached this conclusion. In her much maligned WA, this course of action was very clear if you looked properly at it.
    We never had a free market in services anyway.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited December 2019
    matt said:

    @kle4

    Trump is always saying they're the greatest.

    Lifestyle is definitely a factor used to determine beautiful countries.

    Countries that seem to rate highly in best places to live scores also seem to rate highly on dull as fuck scores. Switzerland take a bow.

    Ireland has its pluses, but it is remarkably parochial. D4 runs the country, it invariably appears.
    What's wrong with dull if it's well-run and pleasant? "May you live in interesting times" is a curse!

    Compare the US and the UK which still maintain great power pretensions against places like the Netherlands and Sweden where they recognise that their time of greatness is past.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,194

    matt said:

    @kle4

    Trump is always saying they're the greatest.

    Lifestyle is definitely a factor used to determine beautiful countries.

    Countries that seem to rate highly in best places to live scores also seem to rate highly on dull as fuck scores. Switzerland take a bow.

    Ireland has its pluses, but it is remarkably parochial. D4 runs the country, it invariably appears.
    Switzerland sounds Good but I've never been.
    Why would you?- They don't do state cheese handouts.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    According the @SeanT people are only depressed if they can't get drugs
    They just make you worse, but I know I'll see your face again.
    Very good...
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    matt said:

    @kle4

    Trump is always saying they're the greatest.

    Lifestyle is definitely a factor used to determine beautiful countries.

    Countries that seem to rate highly in best places to live scores also seem to rate highly on dull as fuck scores. Switzerland take a bow.

    Ireland has its pluses, but it is remarkably parochial. D4 runs the country, it invariably appears.
    Switzerland sounds Good but I've never been.
    It’s tedious, dull, full of people who are Swiss (or behave like they are) - this is not and has never been a compliment- and is utterly parochial. Everything is banned, other than Nazi gold, as being reprehensibly interesting.
  • Options
    matt said:

    matt said:

    @kle4

    Trump is always saying they're the greatest.

    Lifestyle is definitely a factor used to determine beautiful countries.

    Countries that seem to rate highly in best places to live scores also seem to rate highly on dull as fuck scores. Switzerland take a bow.

    Ireland has its pluses, but it is remarkably parochial. D4 runs the country, it invariably appears.
    Switzerland sounds Good but I've never been.
    It’s tedious, dull, full of people who are Swiss (or behave like they are) - this is not and has never been a compliment- and is utterly parochial. Everything is banned, other than Nazi gold, as being reprehensibly interesting.
    UK is pretty dull also unfortunately.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,743

    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Anyway, all I want for a Christmas is a Dukla Praque away strip.....
    Ah, songs of austerity and economic decline...

    https://youtu.be/6uwflmfWfTM
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,743

    Twitter

    John McDonnell has told shadow cabinet colleagues to stop asking him "are you alright?", telling them:

    "Normally when a socialist revolution fails they all get taken to a football stadium and shot, at least that hasn’t happened this time.”

    Not yet...
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,326
    rcs1000 said:

    So, I'm on holiday (yay), and got influenza (boo).

    I've been prescribed Tamiflu, and the doctor asked me "would you like a codeine prescription to help with the coughing". Now, I know codeine is a cough suppressant, but should US doctors really be so enthusiastic about prescribing it to people?

    Grab it and keep it for a future event. There may be a time in your life when you are in great pain and when that happens it is unwise to depend on the kindness of strangers. Better to have and not need, than need and not have.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,743
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    According the @SeanT people are only depressed if they can't get drugs
    Why not give the codeine a crack ? So long as you don't stay on it more than 3 or 4 days you shouldn't get addicted. It's probably more effective pain relief than the Tamiflu is at fighting flu.
    Why not feel good whilst you're laid up ill :)
    The rather casual prescription of opiates for such minor problems is the root of America's opiate overdose problem. Increasingly an issue here too.
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  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,223

    I am not sure next year will be exciting, but it will definitely be fascinating.

    The promises Johnson has made are not all deliverable, so it will be interesting to see which ones fall by the wayside. I suspect it will be those relating to balancing the books as they are the easiest to break. He has to deliver on the public spending pledges. It would be political suicide not to.

    Labour members have a chance to at least begin to rebuild the party by rejecting the factionalism of the hard left in the leadership election. Anyone but Rebecca Long Bailey and Clive Lewis would be a step towards that - though it is going to be a long, hard journey. That's why the comforty blanket may be too tough to throw off.

    There is clearly going to be an ongoing confrontation between English naitonalism and Scottish nationalism inside the Westminster and Edinburgh Parliaments, on the airwaves and possibly on the streets. Too much Johnsonian goading of the Scots could end up backfiring. He will need to be careful.

    And there are indications of tectonic plates beginning to move in Northern Ireland. Unionism has a very tough task there. I wonder how much longer the tide can be held back. Again, much will depend on how Johnson plays things.

    I have found myself sleeping a lot better this last week. The unceertainty is over. That is a good thing, I can tell you! We are starting a new chapter in this country's history. I suspect it will be a pretty difficult one, but you never know.

    Nice post. I too am sleeping better since the election. But that is because politics suddenly seems less important somehow. Thus my interest in it and therefore the consequential tension has waned. Almost evaporated in fact. The country has resoundingly elected a (to me) utterly risible figure as PM - this "Boris" character - and c'est ca for the next 5 years at least. One hopes he turns out OK. What else is there to say?
  • Options
    I’m no doctor but as a matter of observation, it is usually wise to reserve the use of medication for those occasions when you need it.

    My other half has never been one for taking pills. When he needed it, paracetamol was a very effective painkiller.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Off Topic.

    USA and UK aren't the best countries but the media brainwash us that they are.

    What a silly thing to say. What's even its point? And its not even true since I doubt you will find that many people who really believe it, even if you'll find vapid statements about being the greatest country in the world. We all know there are things that are done better elsewhere, that we are not perfect. Acting like the country is brainwashed is just sad.
    Disagree. Do you think UK is good?
    The UK is fabulous. Next?
    Fabulous if you want to get depressed or drugs etc.
    According the @SeanT people are only depressed if they can't get drugs
    Why not give the codeine a crack ? So long as you don't stay on it more than 3 or 4 days you shouldn't get addicted. It's probably more effective pain relief than the Tamiflu is at fighting flu.
    Why not feel good whilst you're laid up ill :)
    The rather casual prescription of opiates for such minor problems is the root of America's opiate overdose problem. Increasingly an issue here too.
    The Coalition For a Pain Free America has a lot to answer for.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 69,033

    Twitter

    John McDonnell has told shadow cabinet colleagues to stop asking him "are you alright?", telling them:

    "Normally when a socialist revolution fails they all get taken to a football stadium and shot, at least that hasn’t happened this time.”

    What a twat McDonnell is. He lives in a fully-functioning parliamentary democracy, not under the Arentinian junta. He belittles their efforts, their torture, their death for their cause, with his pathetic whining.
    At risk of being pedantic, the football stadium massacre was by Pinochet in Chile.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estadio_Nacional_Julio_Martínez_Prádanos#Use_as_a_detention_center
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Sir_Geoff said:

    Cookie said:

    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.

    An unexpected but welcome Half Man Half Biscuit reference.
    But how many of you saw them live?
    I'd hazard a guess at none. I presume they're best known through John Peel's advocacy. I never quite understood his enthusiasm there.
    Anyway, all I want for a Christmas is a Dukla Praque away strip.....
    Ah, songs of austerity and economic decline...

    https://youtu.be/6uwflmfWfTM
    Troubling that I can still remember the lyrics....
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    Funny how people who are so convinced in the virtue of the European Single Market being the One True Path that it is impossible to successfully diverge from are so convinced in their method being right and reasonable but can never name a SINGLE developed non-EU nation that has done worse than us over the past 27 years since the EU came to be.

    Where is the science? Where is the evidence? This is why I switched from Remain to Leave during the campaign, because conversations with Mr Tyndall and Royale and others here were convincing as were Gove and Boris. The data just doesn't back Remain. The "theories" may be that the EU works but the evidence just isn't convincing.

    But to many here it is like arguing with religious fanatics. Their faith, their institution is right and the One True Path. Well I'm sorry but I'm an atheist and a sceptic by nature, I've argued with religious fanatics all my life. If you can't possibly contemplate how leaving the EU can possibly benefit the UK then you are a religious fanatic no better than any other.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308

    Funny how people who are so convinced in the virtue of the European Single Market being the One True Path that it is impossible to successfully diverge from are so convinced in their method being right and reasonable but can never name a SINGLE developed non-EU nation that has done worse than us over the past 27 years since the EU came to be.

    Where is the science? Where is the evidence? This is why I switched from Remain to Leave during the campaign, because conversations with Mr Tyndall and Royale and others here were convincing as were Gove and Boris. The data just doesn't back Remain. The "theories" may be that the EU works but the evidence just isn't convincing.

    But to many here it is like arguing with religious fanatics. Their faith, their institution is right and the One True Path. Well I'm sorry but I'm an atheist and a sceptic by nature, I've argued with religious fanatics all my life. If you can't possibly contemplate how leaving the EU can possibly benefit the UK then you are a religious fanatic no better than any other.

    What about Japan?
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