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    MattWMattW Posts: 20,483
    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    Hmm. Join two pigs in a double poke - the EU and the Euro.

    That'll go well.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,478
    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    The thing I am most optimistic about now is that Johnson will do something for the so called red wall seats that voted for him. Communities that have been left behind and haven't shared in the prosperity of leafy southern commuter towns and London seats.

    Those communities have finally shown they can't be taken for granted and politicians of all stripes will have to take their concerns much more seriously in the future. This can only be a good thing.

    It CAN be a good thing but I would not go so far as it can ONLY be a good thing.

    If he implements Labour policies of steering wealth and opportunity away from the affluent and towards them - great.

    If, however, he panders to identity driven concerns - "giving them their country back" type stuff - then, no, that is not a good thing. That is not good at all.

    Wonder what he WILL do?
    Agree.

    I'm inclined to think he will actually do something about it though. Tough rhetoric and culture wars stuff won't be enough to keep those seats on side at the next GE, especially if Labour make actual spending commitments.

    The long term goal here should be to turn those seats blue for a generation or more, and that will only come from spending money and improving people's lives. Or Labour will be back in there as soon as they get their act together.
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,048
    isam said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:


    But to me it seemed to say what is factually true; that people from the EU can treat the UK as if it were part of their own country for immigration purposes, as they can.

    Of course there's often a grain of truth behind what demagogues say, otherwise it wouldn't be effective.

    But most people of normal intelligence - unless they're really trying to defend the claptrap - will also look at the language they use.

    If there's a mutual agreement between countries to allow freedom of movement, and a politician chooses to characterise that as foreigners treating Britain "as if it’s part of their own country," it really shouldn't be too hard to see what they're up to.

    Particularly when they've taken the diametrically opposite stance in the past when it's been to their political advantage.
    Oh! Was that a clever, subtle dig at my lack of intelligence?! Cute!!

    FOM means EU members can treat any other EU country as if it were part of their own. It was the reason we are leaving the EU and that Boris (or BJ if it keeps people happy) won a huge majority last week.
    If there's a mutual agreement between countries to allow freedom of movement, and a politician chooses to characterise that as foreigners treating Britain "as if it’s part of their own country," it really shouldn't be too hard to see what they're up to.
    Yes, I heard you the first time. The problem is that a majority of voters in a referendum chose for us to break that mutual agreement.
    A majority voted to leave the EU. Neither of us know whether there was a majority to end freedom of movement. I would guess, in isolation, maybe yes, but tied to customs union and single market membership, maybe no. Some leave voters voted leave with Norway in mind - I know of some personally, what neither of us knows is what share of leave voters they made up.

    (The question asked was crude, but we've had two elections since so now it's up to the MPs, I don't dispute that).
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    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    MattW said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    Hmm. Join two pigs in a double poke - the EU and the Euro.

    That'll go well.
    It would certainly go better than making the case for the fudge we were in. It is like Christianity. You can be a full throated case for being Catholic or Lutheran, but arguing Anglicanism's messy compromise is the one true faith...
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    Party popularity is surely a relative phenomenon. Anything else would be downright disturbing.
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    You can make money if you don't fancy an election soon.
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    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    The thing I am most optimistic about now is that Johnson will do something for the so called red wall seats that voted for him. Communities that have been left behind and haven't shared in the prosperity of leafy southern commuter towns and London seats.

    Those communities have finally shown they can't be taken for granted and politicians of all stripes will have to take their concerns much more seriously in the future. This can only be a good thing.

    It CAN be a good thing but I would not go so far as it can ONLY be a good thing.

    If he implements Labour policies of steering wealth and opportunity away from the affluent and towards them - great.

    If, however, he panders to identity driven concerns - "giving them their country back" type stuff - then, no, that is not a good thing. That is not good at all.

    Wonder what he WILL do?
    Agree.

    I'm inclined to think he will actually do something about it though. Tough rhetoric and culture wars stuff won't be enough to keep those seats on side at the next GE, especially if Labour make actual spending commitments.

    The long term goal here should be to turn those seats blue for a generation or more, and that will only come from spending money and improving people's lives. Or Labour will be back in there as soon as they get their act together.
    You talk as if spending money is enough to improve people's lives. It isn't. What is needed is detailed study of the problems and how they interact. Working closely with academics, social entrepreneurs and real people. Learning about what other countries have done, in a way more sophisticated than a two day fact finding trip. Getting under the hood of the issues and really finding the structural challenges, free from ideology. Developing real nuanced and complex solutions that target them. Getting buy-in with all the necessary stakeholders locally to make the change happen. Continuously monitoring how it is going to make course corrections when the things you have missed inevitably come to the surface. Tracking the key metrics and making the effort to find out how people are trying to game the results.

    Do you think Cummings and Boris have the personality and attention span to do those things?
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    The government was elected as 2015 UKIP and it will govern as 2015 UKIP. Nigel Farage’s victory is complete.Yeah.....one of the first things UKIP2015 would have done is legalise same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland....I expect Farage is thrilled to bits.
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    eekeek Posts: 26,554
    Gabs3 said:

    The big problem the Tories have is that they don't actually care about fixing the problems in Northern towns so much as they care about announcing big policies about it.

    It is very easy to throw a load of money at putting in a rail line, but that wouldn't help so much as successful adult reskilling, which Britain is terrible at. Of course that is a difficult issue to fix and takes a lot of work, but Boris doesn't have the attention span for it.

    Skills is a delegated item - for Teesside it's the responsibility of the mayor.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,224
    kyf_100 said:

    Agree.

    I'm inclined to think he will actually do something about it though. Tough rhetoric and culture wars stuff won't be enough to keep those seats on side at the next GE, especially if Labour make actual spending commitments.

    The long term goal here should be to turn those seats blue for a generation or more, and that will only come from spending money and improving people's lives. Or Labour will be back in there as soon as they get their act together.

    The million dollar question. I genuinely don't know.

    The absolute worst thing would be if he does not do much of material significance for them but yet hangs on to their support through his "Boris" persona plus some cheap and nasty words on "Putting Britain First" - he becomes a Britain Trump, in other words.

    I do hope not.

    Much depends on his view of the WWC voters who went for him. Does he think they are shrewd, down to earth types? Or does he think they are ignorant, gullible and a teeny bit racist?

    If he thinks the former - and he's right - all should be well.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    isam said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:


    But to me it seemed to say what is factually true; that people from the EU can treat the UK as if it were part of their own country for immigration purposes, as they can.

    Of course there's often a grain of truth behind what demagogues say, otherwise it wouldn't be effective.

    But most people of normal intelligence - unless they're really trying to defend the claptrap - will also look at the language they use.

    If there's a mutual agreement between countries to allow freedom of movement, and a politician chooses to characterise that as foreigners treating Britain "as if it’s part of their own country," it really shouldn't be too hard to see what they're up to.

    Particularly when they've taken the diametrically opposite stance in the past when it's been to their political advantage.
    Oh! Was that a clever, subtle dig at my lack of intelligence?! Cute!!

    FOM means EU members can treat any other EU country as if it were part of their own. It was the reason we are leaving the EU and that Boris (or BJ if it keeps people happy) won a huge majority last week.
    BoJo/Bozo the Clown seems to have dropped out of favour this past week. Maybe clowns aren't funny any more.

    But then, most of the Labour stooges using it have dropped out of sight too.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,326

    Pretty much every train journey this week and every Friday afternoon since like 999 AD has involved spending most of the journey with at least one man's groin shoved in my face, when I'm lucky it is more than one.

    Commuting is indescribably awful. I don't know how so many people do it day in, day out without going quite mad.
    Oh my children, you have no idea. I have such sights to show you... :(
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    Another money making opportunity folks.

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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    I doubt most people would describe not adopting the Euro as a problem.

    This is the problem Europhiles had; the country simply doesn't like the EU very much, including plenty who reluctantly voted remain. This is why they fought so hard to stop us leaving, going balls deep into the European project was never going to appeal to anybody but the most ardent blue and yellow face paint brigade.

    All this "if only we were a full member" is a little delusional. BTW France is a full member and yet according to polling they are now almost as eurosceptic as we are.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,018
    Just back May 2024 in my opinion on the next election market
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,478
    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Agree.

    I'm inclined to think he will actually do something about it though. Tough rhetoric and culture wars stuff won't be enough to keep those seats on side at the next GE, especially if Labour make actual spending commitments.

    The long term goal here should be to turn those seats blue for a generation or more, and that will only come from spending money and improving people's lives. Or Labour will be back in there as soon as they get their act together.

    The million dollar question. I genuinely don't know.

    The absolute worst thing would be if he does not do much of material significance for them but yet hangs on to their support through his "Boris" persona plus some cheap and nasty words on "Putting Britain First" - he becomes a Britain Trump, in other words.

    I do hope not.

    Much depends on his view of the WWC voters who went for him. Does he think they are shrewd, down to earth types? Or does he think they are ignorant, gullible and a teeny bit racist?

    If he thinks the former - and he's right - all should be well.
    Much like Algarkirk at 4.02 I think Boris has won a victory on the back of people "who are hard to please and not so easily fooled".

    If he delivers for them then those seats could become safe blue seats, if he turns out to be piss and wind they will look elsewhere in swift order. I just don't think culture wars rhetoric is enough to sustain those majorities indefinitely - if I'm wrong about that then our politics is entering depressing times indeed.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Pulpstar said:

    Just back May 2024 in my opinion on the next election market

    For those tempted to go earlier, to lock in a stonking majority, may I lead you by the elbow to Theresa May over there......
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,018

    Pulpstar said:

    Just back May 2024 in my opinion on the next election market

    For those tempted to go earlier, to lock in a stonking majority, may I lead you by the elbow to Theresa May over there......
    Yep, there is NO sense in going for an early election this time round.
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    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    I doubt most people would describe not adopting the Euro as a problem.

    This is the problem Europhiles had; the country simply doesn't like the EU very much, including plenty who reluctantly voted remain. This is why they fought so hard to stop us leaving, going balls deep into the European project was never going to appeal to anybody but the most ardent blue and yellow face paint brigade.

    All this "if only we were a full member" is a little delusional. BTW France is a full member and yet according to polling they are now almost as eurosceptic as we are.
    The country doesn't like the EU much because we were only ever making the case for a compromise position. You get stuck in the middle of the road and you get run over.
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    eekeek Posts: 26,554
    Did we cover this earlier

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1207977050205818880

    Now I understand why Corbyn may not wish his solitary Scottish MP to be the the party's Scottish Spokesman but he really should have done a background check. Not that I object though the Barnett formula needs to go.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    I dont like the term mandate, but I do mostly agree with the final para of the header on our likely direction.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    Pulpstar said:

    Just back May 2024 in my opinion on the next election market

    I had thought 2023 would make sense but I didnt take account that they likely wont want another winter election and May 2023 would be less than 4 years away. Not likely.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    eek said:

    Did we cover this earlier

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1207977050205818880

    Now I understand why Corbyn may not wish his solitary Scottish MP to be the the party's Scottish Spokesman but he really should have done a background check. Not that I object though the Barnett formula needs to go.

    The Barnett Formula is like the NHS: untouchable despite the obvious faults and flaws.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,224
    kyf_100 said:

    Much like Algarkirk at 4.02 I think Boris has won a victory on the back of people "who are hard to please and not so easily fooled".

    If he delivers for them then those seats could become safe blue seats, if he turns out to be piss and wind they will look elsewhere in swift order. I just don't think culture wars rhetoric is enough to sustain those majorities indefinitely - if I'm wrong about that then our politics is entering depressing times indeed.

    Indeed. I note your optimism but the Trump thing is troubling if it does even partially indicate where we are heading. There are millions over there who lap up his rhetoric and demeanor. They like him because of this, not so much because of any concrete policies to their economic benefit. And we do have our equivalent over here. For example, the oft heard "We stood alone in 1940, we can do it again" types. Hopefully these people are disproportionately represented in media vox pops for whatever reason.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,224
    And the peerage for Zac Goldsmith does not augur well, I'm afraid.

    But anyway -
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    Alistair said:

    Brom said:

    kyf_100 said:

    The thing I am most optimistic about now is that Johnson will do something for the so called red wall seats that voted for him. Communities that have been left behind and haven't shared in the prosperity of leafy southern commuter towns and London seats.

    Those communities have finally shown they can't be taken for granted and politicians of all stripes will have to take their concerns much more seriously in the future. This can only be a good thing.

    Well if he wants to prove it he can improve the transport infrastructure in the North which gets a fraction of the spending of London.

    The whole system in the North is about to collapse, especially the trains which will impact bus and tram services, and that's not going to be a good look when he spaffs billions on HS2.
    I have zero problem with Boris mugging off the SE and London to improve investment and infrastructure in the Midlands and the North.
    Boris is, of course, on record saying it's better to spend all government money on London is it gets the best ROI.
    He didn't mean good honest English folk oop north so long ignored by people like..er..him, just those ghastly porridge w*gs.

    https://youtu.be/CjFboRwGiqc
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,438


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,476
    edited December 2019


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    I think its perfectly reasonable to be so happy that the form of democracy that you and Corbyn were espousing has been utterly rejected by the voters. As a remainer i am less happy at the outcome but thats democracy.

    Happy Xmas one and all.
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    eekeek Posts: 26,554
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just back May 2024 in my opinion on the next election market

    I had thought 2023 would make sense but I didnt take account that they likely wont want another winter election and May 2023 would be less than 4 years away. Not likely.
    October 2023? I can see the argument for wanting a minimum of 4 years but the last thing you want is for events to overtake you in the run up to an election.

    So I suspect Boris will go early if things look OK..
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    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    edited December 2019
    There is an American saying that the definition of an honest politician is one who stays bought. I’m not quite that cynical, but I echo the sentiments of those who hope that we can count on an unprincipled politician to do what he thinks people want while a principled one will do what they think people need.
    I also think that Boris will not be as good as his fans hope nor as bad as his detractors claim, but that must be true of all people (with one or two spectacular exceptions).
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    llefllef Posts: 300
    The ONS released revised q3 GDP figures up from 0.3% to 0.4% today.
    The nos you refer you use the 0.3% figure.
    Quarterly nos can quite erratic, the last 4 quarterly figs are
    +0.2
    +0.6
    -0.2
    +0.4
    extrapolating from one negative quarter would have been a mistake.
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    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just back May 2024 in my opinion on the next election market

    I had thought 2023 would make sense but I didnt take account that they likely wont want another winter election and May 2023 would be less than 4 years away. Not likely.
    October 2023? I can see the argument for wanting a minimum of 4 years but the last thing you want is for events to overtake you in the run up to an election.

    So I suspect Boris will go early if things look OK..
    May 2024 is technically early, but I can’t see him wanting to have another December election.
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    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    And in between everyone from Northern Ireland will have a good Christmas as Tories are garbage over here and labour non existent.
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    The problem in the world is that people are living in a bubble and are brainwashed.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,131

    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just back May 2024 in my opinion on the next election market

    I had thought 2023 would make sense but I didnt take account that they likely wont want another winter election and May 2023 would be less than 4 years away. Not likely.
    October 2023? I can see the argument for wanting a minimum of 4 years but the last thing you want is for events to overtake you in the run up to an election.

    So I suspect Boris will go early if things look OK..
    May 2024 is technically early, but I can’t see him wanting to have another December election.
    Depends what replaces FTPA. As things stand, I think May 2024 is the fixed legal date for the next election, not December.
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    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Did you have a blast at cons majority?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Anyway, those nice people at William Hills have unknowingly funded a sack of presents for the local underprivilegd kids, now dropped off. Some will now have a merrier Christmas than they would have had.
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,811


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited December 2019
    llef said:

    The ONS released revised q3 GDP figures up from 0.3% to 0.4% today.
    The nos you refer you use the 0.3% figure.
    Quarterly nos can quite erratic, the last 4 quarterly figs are
    +0.2
    +0.6
    -0.2
    +0.4
    extrapolating from one negative quarter would have been a mistake.
    I was justifying my use of flatlining. The most recent period shows Britain doing exactly that.

    If you want to look at longer term performance, look at Britain’s relative performance since the date of the referendum. Britain is significantly underperforming against its peers.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Pro_Rata said:

    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just back May 2024 in my opinion on the next election market

    I had thought 2023 would make sense but I didnt take account that they likely wont want another winter election and May 2023 would be less than 4 years away. Not likely.
    October 2023? I can see the argument for wanting a minimum of 4 years but the last thing you want is for events to overtake you in the run up to an election.

    So I suspect Boris will go early if things look OK..
    May 2024 is technically early, but I can’t see him wanting to have another December election.
    Depends what replaces FTPA. As things stand, I think May 2024 is the fixed legal date for the next election, not December.
    We shall raise a glass at the wake of the FTPA.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Anyway, off topic but, on the day when Andrew Bailey is named as the BoE's new Governor (and with all due respect to @MarqueeMark - fully accept that Bailey is a gent etc) a slightly different perspective from yours truly - https://twitter.com/Cyclefree2/status/1208055229721300992?s=20.

    This and the FCA's unwillingness to tell Jess Staley to take a hike when he sought to subvert his bank's whistleblowing policy are low points in the FCA's recent supervision. For me anyway.

    Still it will be interesting to see how he reacts as Governor when the FCA reports on how the BoE did or did not manage to control who had access to market sensitive data via its audio line (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/business-in-bank-hacking-scandal-received-embargoed-press-releases-x0b0zgqk6)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,498
    So all it takes is a Tory election win and Boris finally passes the Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons with a majority of 124
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    ClippP said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    Not gloating, just enjoying the gloom of the last two and half years having lifted.
    Gloom that you yourself created........
    Well, Theresa May created.

    Although your LibDems played their part. And have paid the price.

    Going backwards in seats. Who would have thought? *chortle*
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    edited December 2019
    Unlikely to succeed but still worth doing - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/harry-dunn-diplomats-wife-anne-sacoolas-charged-over-crash-death-zwj2qtwj9 - if only to show the family that their government is doing all it can.

    How Mrs Sacoolas can live with herself I really don't know.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460

    The problem in the world is that people are living in a bubble and are brainwashed.

    Not me, I'm just stupid ;)
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    That's true, although I fear not everyone takes thing in such a mature way on either side!
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,588
    edited December 2019

    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    I doubt most people would describe not adopting the Euro as a problem.

    This is the problem Europhiles had; the country simply doesn't like the EU very much, including plenty who reluctantly voted remain. This is why they fought so hard to stop us leaving, going balls deep into the European project was never going to appeal to anybody but the most ardent blue and yellow face paint brigade.

    All this "if only we were a full member" is a little delusional. BTW France is a full member and yet according to polling they are now almost as eurosceptic as we are.
    The real but hidden problem is that by getting to opt out from the Euro the UK people had no say by a referendum as to whether we agreed with Europe as a whole developing a single currency, full debate on which would have revealed that we were part of a unit which was going to be in fiscal, monetary and economic union in due course, and therefore in political union.

    If asked we would have, IMHO, not allowed the Euro project at all, and the EU would have developed within limits we could have gone along with.

    The Euro made it inevitable that we would in time either fully join (despite all the promises of opt out) or leave.

    As both leaving and remaining have truly difficult dilemmas, there have been no very good political options or outcomes for us, not from 2016, as Remainers like 'The Economist' think, but from 1999. For those who still think there are, 2020 will be an interesting year.

    The latest sensible time for a referendum was about 1998.

  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,478
    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Much like Algarkirk at 4.02 I think Boris has won a victory on the back of people "who are hard to please and not so easily fooled".

    If he delivers for them then those seats could become safe blue seats, if he turns out to be piss and wind they will look elsewhere in swift order. I just don't think culture wars rhetoric is enough to sustain those majorities indefinitely - if I'm wrong about that then our politics is entering depressing times indeed.

    Indeed. I note your optimism but the Trump thing is troubling if it does even partially indicate where we are heading. There are millions over there who lap up his rhetoric and demeanor. They like him because of this, not so much because of any concrete policies to their economic benefit. And we do have our equivalent over here. For example, the oft heard "We stood alone in 1940, we can do it again" types. Hopefully these people are disproportionately represented in media vox pops for whatever reason.
    I'm hoping the people who "loaned" their votes to the Tories this time round hold Johnson's feet to the fire.

    However this is very much dependent on the opposition being viable and offering these people a better alternative, rather than navel gazing and finding reasons to serve up the same re-heated tripe a third time round.

    Democracy needs a strong opposition to function properly, I really hope we get one soon.
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    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    William, is that you?
  • Options
    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Much like Algarkirk at 4.02 I think Boris has won a victory on the back of people "who are hard to please and not so easily fooled".

    If he delivers for them then those seats could become safe blue seats, if he turns out to be piss and wind they will look elsewhere in swift order. I just don't think culture wars rhetoric is enough to sustain those majorities indefinitely - if I'm wrong about that then our politics is entering depressing times indeed.

    Indeed. I note your optimism but the Trump thing is troubling if it does even partially indicate where we are heading. There are millions over there who lap up his rhetoric and demeanor. They like him because of this, not so much because of any concrete policies to their economic benefit. And we do have our equivalent over here. For example, the oft heard "We stood alone in 1940, we can do it again" types. Hopefully these people are disproportionately represented in media vox pops for whatever reason.
    I'm hoping the people who "loaned" their votes to the Tories this time round hold Johnson's feet to the fire.

    However this is very much dependent on the opposition being viable and offering these people a better alternative, rather than navel gazing and finding reasons to serve up the same re-heated tripe a third time round.

    Democracy needs a strong opposition to function properly, I really hope we get one soon.
    I very much agree with that, particularly the last sentence.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,210
    edited December 2019
    HYUFD said:

    So all it takes is a Tory election win and Boris finally passes the Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons with a majority of 124

    It has long been contended that Europe would destroy the conservative party and as we approach Christmas 2019 the party has never been more united and labour are self destructing before our eyes. On the defining vote of this decade Corbyn can only get 162 of his mps through his lobby and I really have no idea how labour will survive to be honest

    However, I want to repeat my sincere congratulations to HYUFD not only for his predictions on Boris as leader, but his continuining confidence that Boris would gain a landslide. Today he certainly saw a landslide, a 124 majority for the WDA

    Have a great Christmas and New Year HYUFD, you deserve it and for all the hard leg work you put in even though we did not always see eye to eye
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,498
    edited December 2019

    HYUFD said:

    So all it takes is a Tory election win and Boris finally passes the Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons with a majority of 124

    It has long been contended that Europe would destroy the conservative party and as we approach Christmas 2019 the party has never been more united and labour are self destructing before our eyes. On the defining vote of this decade Corbyn can only get 162 of his mps through his lobby and I really have no idea how labour will survive to be honest

    However, I want to repeat my sincere congratulations to HYUFD not only for his predictions on Boris as leader, but his continuining confidence that Boris would gain a landslide. Today he certainly saw a landslide, a 124 majority for the WDA

    Have a great Christmas and New Year HYUFD, you deserve it and for all the hard leg work you put in even though we did not always see eye to eye
    Thanks BigG and hope you and your family have a good Christmas and New Year too
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Cyclefree said:

    Unlikely to succeed but still worth doing - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/harry-dunn-diplomats-wife-anne-sacoolas-charged-over-crash-death-zwj2qtwj9 - if only to show the family that their government is doing all it can.

    How Mrs Sacoolas can live with herself I really don't know.

    I used to work for Chevron in their London offices off Oxford Street. Even as pedestrians, the Americans in the office would still regularly look the wrong way in traffic.

    I don't know whether it is still the case, but the US air bases in East Anglia used to have masses of US left-hand drive cars on them. First step to ending the problem would be to ban them from bringing their cars to this country.

    We can all say how terrible it is that she legged it back to the US. Bit how many of us can honestly say they would now be preparing to spend maybe the first of six or seven Christmases away from our family, doing jail time, if we could have got on a plane?

    Bring a civil action in the US. The measure of damages should be set in accordance with US justice - including punitive damages for running away - and be paid to the UK family by the US Govt. It wouldn't lessen their loss, but the large sum handed over might lessen their sense of grievance.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So all it takes is a Tory election win and Boris finally passes the Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons with a majority of 124

    It has long been contended that Europe would destroy the conservative party and as we approach Christmas 2019 the party has never been more united and labour are self destructing before our eyes. On the defining vote of this decade Corbyn can only get 162 of his mps through his lobby and I really have no idea how labour will survive to be honest

    However, I want to repeat my sincere congratulations to HYUFD not only for his predictions on Boris as leader, but his continuining confidence that Boris would gain a landslide. Today he certainly saw a landslide, a 124 majority for the WDA

    Have a great Christmas and New Year HYUFD, you deserve it and for all the hard leg work you put in even though we did not always see eye to eye
    Thanks BigG and hope you and your family have a good Christmas and New Year too
    Thank you and we will
  • Options
    DruttDrutt Posts: 1,116
    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    On any foreign policy point, the UK either agrees with the EU27 position or it doesn't. If it does agree, then it hardly matters whether we're in or out. If it doesn't agree, membership means our voice is lost.
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    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    +1000
  • Options
    Drutt said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    On any foreign policy point, the UK either agrees with the EU27 position or it doesn't. If it does agree, then it hardly matters whether we're in or out. If it doesn't agree, membership means our voice is lost.
    I think Europe is going to get rapidly superseded in defence, security and foreign policy by a global Western alliance over the next 10-15 years. NATO will be superseded by the GDA (global democratic alliance).

    This USA v. USE rivalry, whilst collaborating to keep Russia out, will be see for the anachronism it already is.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,362
    Oh Alistair. It's cliched to be cynical at Christmas.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    Tend to agree. In the cold light of day Brexit has achieved nothing other than the deification of Boris Johnson amongst a smattering of zealous devotees. It will be prove a meagre return.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,554

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    How are those trade deals going to be better than a deals we currently have through the EU. At best they will be equal to what the EU has but I suspect most of the time they will be worse.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,554

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    That's not true - we might compromise everything to get the deal with the EU through by 31st Dec 2020
  • Options
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    How are those trade deals going to be better than a deals we currently have through the EU. At best they will be equal to what the EU has but I suspect most of the time they will be worse.
    We need to reserve judgment. The country is leaving the EU and we need more positive vibes
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Brexit/Boris derangement syndrome aside, I was thinking about leader ratings... I’m sure I’ll be corrected if wrong, but I think much was made of Jo Swinson being less unpopular than Boris/Bozo/ Johnson/BJ/whatever people want to call him to make a point, and Corbyn.

    I had the thought that people should be asked who they wanted to win rather than who they would vote for in a GE. Then I thought this would be the equivalent of leader ratings. The problem is that the third party’s leader maybe most popular, but the two party state means that doesn’t translate to electoral success, as many Tory and labour diehards vote to keep the other out.

    That would explain Swinson’s ‘hubris’ in stating she could realistically be PM, as the Lib Dem’s would have to hope her relative popularity combined w being seen as a genuine contender would feed off each other over the campaign. So all in all not as bad a ploy as it seems.

    But the main take is leader ratings are only relevant to the Tory and Labour leaders
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    Alastair. I have a great respect for you and understand your pain but you are not helping yourself to adjust to the fact we will not be in the EU next year

    It will be very different but it may well just surprise on the upside
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2019
    More than anywhere else on earth, PB is a place where people cannot bear to admit they were wrong. If someone has devoted a significant amount of time crafting, and refining, arguments that all reach the conclusion that remain will win the referendum and Boris won’t ever be leader of the Conservatives, it is only fair to show some sympathy & empathy to them when Boris wins a massive majority and delivers Brexit.

    But it can’t go on forever!
  • Options
    isam said:

    More than anywhere else on earth, PB is a place where people cannot bear to admit they were wrong. If someone has devoted a significant amount of time crafting, and refining, arguments that all reach the conclusion that remain will win the referendum and Boris won’t ever be leader of the Conservatives, it is only fair to show some sympathy & empathy to them when Boris wins a massive majority and delivers Brexit.

    But it can’t go on forever!

    Very well said
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    Alastair. I have a great respect for you and understand your pain but you are not helping yourself to adjust to the fact we will not be in the EU next year

    It will be very different but it may well just surprise on the upside
    We need to reserve judgment while also blathering on about exciting futures, surprising on the upside, and positive vibes?

    Okeydokey.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    Alastair. I have a great respect for you and understand your pain but you are not helping yourself to adjust to the fact we will not be in the EU next year

    It will be very different but it may well just surprise on the upside
    We need to reserve judgment while also blathering on about exciting futures, surprising on the upside, and positive vibes?

    Okeydokey.
    Everyone has a choice. Either fight against brexit and lose, or adopt a more positive attitude

    And as far as Scots independence is concerned I am relaxed that no matter when a referendum is held Scots will vote to remain in the union
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    Surly hostility?

    ah you mean that attitude that you have adopted towards leavers.


  • Options
    GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    isam said:

    More than anywhere else on earth, PB is a place where people cannot bear to admit they were wrong. If someone has devoted a significant amount of time crafting, and refining, arguments that all reach the conclusion that remain will win the referendum and Boris won’t ever be leader of the Conservatives, it is only fair to show some sympathy & empathy to them when Boris wins a massive majority and delivers Brexit.

    But it can’t go on forever!

    Some epic sulkers on pb. Absolute world class sulking.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    Alastair. I have a great respect for you and understand your pain but you are not helping yourself to adjust to the fact we will not be in the EU next year

    It will be very different but it may well just surprise on the upside
    We need to reserve judgment while also blathering on about exciting futures, surprising on the upside, and positive vibes?

    Okeydokey.
    Everyone has a choice. Either fight against brexit and lose, or adopt a more positive attitude

    And as far as Scots independence is concerned I am relaxed that no matter when a referendum is held Scots will vote to remain in the union
    So what you mean is that people who think BJ is a human bin fire and Brexit a disaster should reserve judgment while the Pollyannas should chirp away empty headedly to their hearts' content? Got ya.
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    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    Alastair. I have a great respect for you and understand your pain but you are not helping yourself to adjust to the fact we will not be in the EU next year

    It will be very different but it may well just surprise on the upside
    We need to reserve judgment while also blathering on about exciting futures, surprising on the upside, and positive vibes?

    Okeydokey.
    Everyone has a choice. Either fight against brexit and lose, or adopt a more positive attitude

    And as far as Scots independence is concerned I am relaxed that no matter when a referendum is held Scots will vote to remain in the union
    So what you mean is that people who think BJ is a human bin fire and Brexit a disaster should reserve judgment while the Pollyannas should chirp away empty headedly to their hearts' content? Got ya.
    Not really but unless those who want to remain come to terms with leaving they will be in a constant state of distress and bitterness. And remember I voted remain
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308
    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    I'm not sure a policy of fiscal looseness *before* a slowdown is one that generates long term outperformance. I suspect that what it does is increase consumption ahead of production, and worsen the imbalances in the UK economy.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    I'm not sure a policy of fiscal looseness *before* a slowdown is one that generates long term outperformance. I suspect that what it does is increase consumption ahead of production, and worsen the imbalances in the UK economy.
    Do you think we will get a slowdown in the US before November?
  • Options
    FlannerFlanner Posts: 436
    eek said:



    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,280

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    How are those trade deals going to be better than a deals we currently have through the EU. At best they will be equal to what the EU has but I suspect most of the time they will be worse.
    We need to reserve judgment. The country is leaving the EU and we need more positive vibes
    I will positively look forward to us rejoining.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    Alastair. I have a great respect for you and understand your pain but you are not helping yourself to adjust to the fact we will not be in the EU next year

    It will be very different but it may well just surprise on the upside
    We need to reserve judgment while also blathering on about exciting futures, surprising on the upside, and positive vibes?

    Okeydokey.
    Everyone has a choice. Either fight against brexit and lose, or adopt a more positive attitude

    And as far as Scots independence is concerned I am relaxed that no matter when a referendum is held Scots will vote to remain in the union
    So what you mean is that people who think BJ is a human bin fire and Brexit a disaster should reserve judgment while the Pollyannas should chirp away empty headedly to their hearts' content? Got ya.
    What YOU mean is that people who think Scottish independence a disaster should reserve judgment while the SNP Pollyannas should chirp away empty headedly to their hearts' content? Got ya.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2019
    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,247
    edited December 2019

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.
    In what way is it exciting? It’s at best meh.
  • Options
    Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    How are those trade deals going to be better than a deals we currently have through the EU. At best they will be equal to what the EU has but I suspect most of the time they will be worse.
    We need to reserve judgment. The country is leaving the EU and we need more positive vibes
    I will positively look forward to us rejoining.
    The question is which party will take up our cause? Will Labour commit to rejoining under a new leader? They let us down badly during the referendum, so it is last chance saloon for them in my opinion.
  • Options
    GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    I'm not sure a policy of fiscal looseness *before* a slowdown is one that generates long term outperformance. I suspect that what it does is increase consumption ahead of production, and worsen the imbalances in the UK economy.
    Boris seems to be a fan of infrastructure building. Us in the North are crying out for it. I think that might improve productivity in the long-term?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,280
    Gabs3 said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    How are those trade deals going to be better than a deals we currently have through the EU. At best they will be equal to what the EU has but I suspect most of the time they will be worse.
    We need to reserve judgment. The country is leaving the EU and we need more positive vibes
    I will positively look forward to us rejoining.
    The question is which party will take up our cause? Will Labour commit to rejoining under a new leader? They let us down badly during the referendum, so it is last chance saloon for them in my opinion.
    No EU policy to begin with until we understand the new reality. Need to see what Boris does first.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308

    Drutt said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Gasman said:

    Of all the disingenous nonsense and outright lies from the Remain side, the crap about "loss of influence" is probably the worst. As a member of the EU we have 1/28 of a voice to the rest of the world, approximately the same as Luxembourg.

    If you actually cared about us being able to influence the rest of the world you would want us to be able to do so, not to add a little more weight to whatever France and Germany want to say.

    The problem with our membership was that we were not in the Euro, which left us second tier in decision making. The Rejoin movement should start arguing for Euro membership rather than the half in, half out membership that breeds resentments on both sides. We should go in fully.
    On any foreign policy point, the UK either agrees with the EU27 position or it doesn't. If it does agree, then it hardly matters whether we're in or out. If it doesn't agree, membership means our voice is lost.
    I think Europe is going to get rapidly superseded in defence, security and foreign policy by a global Western alliance over the next 10-15 years. NATO will be superseded by the GDA (global democratic alliance).

    This USA v. USE rivalry, whilst collaborating to keep Russia out, will be see for the anachronism it already is.
    With pragmatic leadership in Washington, London, Paris, Berlin, Canberra, Seoul and Tokyo, that would be a great outcome.

    But it does require leadership from the US, simply because they are so much bigger than any of the other players.

    Which in turn requires the US to realise that its trade imbalances are cocreated. So long as the US government pursues policies that encourage consumption (such as big tax cuts and spending increases), then that deficit will persist. The US needs to work with Germany, getting them to spend more, while agreeing policies that increase the US household savings rate. The problem is that that would (unless very carefully managed) result in a US recession.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    kle4 said:


    Us Tories are going to have a cracking Christmas.

    The rest are going to have a terrible Self-pitymas.

    Nah, sorry - you win some, you lose some, and in the end people decide what they want and it's up to them - it's a democratic process, not a football match. You're letting yourself down by gloats, though. Just enjoy life!
    That's true, although I fear not everyone takes thing in such a mature way on either side!
    Tick tock.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    I'm not sure a policy of fiscal looseness *before* a slowdown is one that generates long term outperformance. I suspect that what it does is increase consumption ahead of production, and worsen the imbalances in the UK economy.
    Boris seems to be a fan of infrastructure building. Us in the North are crying out for it. I think that might improve productivity in the long-term?
    It might...

    But infrastructure is not a panacea. If it was Japan, which has spend crazy sums on it, would be booming.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited December 2019

    Flanner said:

    eek said:

    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future

    Name one.

    Just one. And then explain why this brilliant opportunity failed to present itself for the three and a half years successive Tory PMs tried to find a sunny upland

    America, China, India. Take your pick

    Oh you just want one.

    Plus we can control our own laws to best suit ourselves.
    So the one that will sell off the NHS and sell Britain poisoned food[1], the one that will require the UK to suppress support for Hong Kong or the one that will undermine the promised hard-line on immigration.

    Which is your preferred one?

    [1] I live in the US, and yes, food here is frequently poisoned: there are constant e-coli, salmonella and listeria related food recalls.
  • Options
    wf1954wf1954 Posts: 15

    Cyclefree said:

    Unlikely to succeed but still worth doing - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/harry-dunn-diplomats-wife-anne-sacoolas-charged-over-crash-death-zwj2qtwj9 - if only to show the family that their government is doing all it can.

    How Mrs Sacoolas can live with herself I really don't know.

    I used to work for Chevron in their London offices off Oxford Street. Even as pedestrians, the Americans in the office would still regularly look the wrong way in traffic.

    I don't know whether it is still the case, but the US air bases in East Anglia used to have masses of US left-hand drive cars on them. First step to ending the problem would be to ban them from bringing their cars to this country.

    We can all say how terrible it is that she legged it back to the US. Bit how many of us can honestly say they would now be preparing to spend maybe the first of six or seven Christmases away from our family, doing jail time, if we could have got on a plane?

    Bring a civil action in the US. The measure of damages should be set in accordance with US justice - including punitive damages for running away - and be paid to the UK family by the US Govt. It wouldn't lessen their loss, but the large sum handed over might lessen their sense of grievance.
    Could'nt agree more with that, I've driven extensively in France and in my own RHD UK car many years ago, drove merrily off on the wrong side for 50 yds or so (by the grace of God without incident) - it's extremely easy to do. When driving a LHD hired car, however, the constant slight "unusualness" of the different layout of the car I find keeps you much safer. Overtaking is also very hazardous in an RHD card in Europe.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308
    Gabs3 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    I'm not sure a policy of fiscal looseness *before* a slowdown is one that generates long term outperformance. I suspect that what it does is increase consumption ahead of production, and worsen the imbalances in the UK economy.
    Do you think we will get a slowdown in the US before November?
    I think Trump is desperate to avoid a slowdown. He will, therefore, try and lower taxes and increase spending ahead of the elections. (Which increases his chance of reelection.) But it's storing up trouble for later. I want Trump to win in November, because he needs to deal with the fallout from his policies.
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    DavidL said:

    A seriously disappointing thread header.
    What we will get from Boris will be a one nation toryism that involves a lot more spending, an economy that is very likely to outperform the EZ as a result, a domination of centre ground of politics and very little political room for his opponents.

    Insisting Brexit is unpopular when the referendum supported it and the British people have given such a handsome majority to the party that campaigned on little else is just silly. Getting rid of “independent minded MPs” who could not be counted to support the government’s central strategy was entirely sensible and should very much reduce the risks of outbreaks of similar independence in this Parliament.

    We have a government again. Thank goodness.

    The country is on a seriously disappointing course. Only the Brexit-obsessed could see any plus points about what is coming. The country’s long term decline is now firmly locked in.
    I am sorry Alastair I do not agree. It may be rocky for a while but with new trade deals across the globe it may just be an exciting future
    The country is not looking for new trade deals. It’s looking for isolation, introversion and surly hostility to outsiders by preference. The government has already shown it is prioritising that by making a fetish of the year end deadline for the EU deal. It’s not going to start making unpopular compromises with other countries.
    You are projecting. You're that upset and angry and filled with bile at everything that is happening that you want isolation, introversion and display surly hostility others with different preferences to you.

    Lighten up Eeyore, then next year is going to be exciting. You'll have to end your projections at some point.
    In what way is it exciting? It’s a best meh.
    We will have our first year outside of the European Communities in my lifetime next year. We have the negotiations for the future relationship and the start in earnest of the negotiations for global FTAs. We have the a strong majority government beginning with the opportunity to make its mark for the first time since 23 years earlier.

    It is exciting.
  • Options
    It is quite bemusing to see people who have argued that the country made a big mistake in not listening to a large part of the country advocating that half the country needs to be ignored and/or need to shut up and be more positive about our future.

    I do wish the current govt and its trade policy well, we shall see, I will judge by actions not soundbites or promises. So far we have had removal of workers rights, refugee children rights, loss of parliamentary scrutiny and given the executive license to negotiate deals outside their own political declaration. Not exactly a promising start.
This discussion has been closed.