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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The data’s clear: The Tories are retaining more of their GE201

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  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Electoral calculus says Tories 7 short of a majority on those numbers, 319 seats so DUP again?

    I think they'd be fine given they are on 42, but it certainly needs to be pushed in order to GTVO.
  • Anorak said:
    Visit Richmond or the dog gets it!
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    Will ICM be the Survation of 2019? How did they do in the Euros?

    Beaten 3-1 by Slovakia, I believe.
  • Andy_JS said:


    Capitalism is a terrible system apart from all the other systems that have been tried. Look what happened in Venezuela when they tried to build a socialist utopia.

    Or look at the Scandi economic models? Investment, social equality, focus on education and technology. Sounds good to me.
    What does Corbynism have to do with Scandinavia though?
    What do I have to do with justifying Corbynism? Nothing, I think its nonsense. Just pointing out our choices dont need to be US model vs Venezuelan model, there are far better models than either of them out there.

    I think if we focused more on education, technology and investment in the country, life could be a lot better for all.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Ave_it said:

    I see CORBYN is in Bristol which is ultra LAB area.

    Is Debbonaire going to lose her seat?! :lol:

    What the hell is he doing there. It is literally West Country Islington.
    Some nice images of adoring Crusties chanting his name.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Will ICM be the Survation of 2019? How did they do in the Euros?

    They didn’t compete.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    kjohnw1 said:

    What time is this welsh poll released

    In about 2 hours.
  • Will ICM be the Survation of 2019? How did they do in the Euros?

    They didn't publish any polls. Ipsos was the most accurate poll.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,253

    Andy_JS said:

    alex_ said:

    Folk switching from Labour to Conservative over Brexit will live to regret their decision when they get shafted by the next Government.


    Labour looks to get votes from the poorest which encourages them to ensure they stay poor. Hence the poverty trap they created ensures they stay impoverished, while ensuring people rent is good for Labour.
    Indeed. Labour chose to be the party for landlords when in government which is why home ownership rates collapsed in this country.


    I think the Tories increasing home ownership rates is good. I think Labour decreasing home ownership rates was bad. What about you?
    All governments this century are responsible for the housing situation, so Labour, Tories and LDs. Likemortgage banking and Help to Buy have happened under the Tory watch though.
    QE began under the last government and was needed as they'd ran out of money. Help to Buy was a Tory idea and has helped lead to record construction and improved home ownership rates I agree.

    Which was my original point. Tories want voters to have capital. They want voters to succeed.

    Labour wants voters to rely upon them.
    The Tories have just presided over a decade where those with assets have raced away from those with wages but no assets. I think the first few years of that were unintended as politicians didnt fully understand what QE was doing and just following central bankers advice. The last few years have been a deliberate continuance, separating the country into haves and have nots. After a decade in power I will judge by their actions and results not their words or spin.

    Obviously I have no time for Labours current economics either. No-one is representing workers interests.
    Capitalism is a terrible system apart from all the other systems that have been tried. Look what happened in Venezuela when they tried to build a socialist utopia.
    Or look at the Scandi economic models? Investment, social equality, focus on education and technology. Sounds good to me.
    Scandinavian model is capitalist with a stronger safety net, it is probably the most market orientated set of economies in the EU outside of the UK.
    Norwegian model is built on oil; the Swedish one is built on timber.

    Don't tell Greta...
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    ICM has consistently been bad for CON and good for LAB in the election. Only a slight movement to LAB.

  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    Ave_it said:
    Not sure about squeaky bum, but someone's going to have an eggy face.
  • MaxPB said:

    On the BBC and steaming, I know one of the world's experts on streaming media after a chat with him on the subject I became a lot less bullish on Netflix.

    Most streaming technology is licensable. The key is having the people to work it. That means paying high salaries. A BBC freed of the licence fee would have that freedom.

  • novanova Posts: 692
    Ave_it said:

    It's all about standing firm now.

    The CON vote is provided by those who work or have worked, including the aspirant working classes, who want to be able to hold onto a fair part of the wealth for which they have worked. That to me is more important than Brexit. It is down to these 43% to 45% to get out to the polling station on Thur to defeat the enemy within which is LAB, LD and SNP.

    If we can get the 43% to 45% we will be fine.

    If only those who work had voted at the last election, Labour would have been clear winners.

    The Conservative vote is held up by the retired.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    nico67 said:

    Byronic said:

    Stocky said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris has just said he might abolish the BBC licence fee.

    That's really quite stupid. Yes it makes logical sense, the BBC itself is considering a new structure, as the fee is unsustainable. But why say it NOW? Why say anything controversial NOW, when the election is almost over, and probably won?

    This can easily be portrayed - esp by angry BBC journos - as Boris threatening to privatise our beloved Beeb, as well as the NHS, blah blah

    Silly man.

    Why privatise? The opposite surely?
    But that's how it will be portrayed. Boris is making gaffes as we enter the final straight. The guest workers comment. This BBC idea. The kid in the photo - Why not look?

    He's probably as tired as the rest of them. Just three days to go. Help.
    Just a thought...dead cat strategy again....the stuff about the kid not getting a bed is bad. What we do know, the media love to talk about themselves and the BBC going mental should anybody ever suggest that you know the BBC should ever be reformed in anyway.
    Yes he threw in the BBC comment to deflect from the horror interview earlier with ITV. But without the license fee the BBC will not survive in its current form .
    Should the BBC survive in its current form?
    Not bothered if it does - I am unhappy paying for a service I never use though.

    You tube gives me more pleasure than the beeb
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Part 3

    I've always argued defeat brings opportunities and victory brings challenges.

    For Labour, the LDs and others, the Conservative win will be a blow and indeed very difficult to take as it should be but Johnson will have nowhere to hide and no one else to blame.

    The LDs have a problem but an opportunity too. Stopping Brexit was never credible - I speak as an LD LEAVE voter - and it would have been better to have enabled the process and ensured the future trading and political relationship was BINO. It's just not right for a democratic party to seek to overturn a democratic vote - had Swinson simply argued for a second referendum, it would have made no difference because a) there's no appetite for a second round of what we went through in 2016 and b) the fact is no one had an answer to the question of what would happen if LEAVE won again.

    Arguing to rejoin the EU will, I think, one day be a very powerful and popular position but in time and it needs to be clear on what basis the UK would rejoin.

    The LDs have carved out a new position as the Party of sound financial management and that's something that can be built on in opposition along with a new emphasis on environmental issues which is the coming big political item for the second quarter of this century if the impacts of global climate change become more evident.

    How can "Global Britain" use its leverage (such as it is) to bring other countries (USA, China and others) into a more environmentally-friendly form of capitalism based on de-carbonisation?

    How do we facilitate economic prosperity for others (Africa) which we have enjoyed but on a basis of minimising the global environmental impact?
  • Second 36% we’ve seen. Will we see a 37%?

    What about ICM in 2017?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    speedy2 said:

    Penddu2 said:

    Some anecdotes from Wales:

    1. Plaid confident of holding Ceredigion - not so confident in Ynys Mon

    2. Plaid doing well in Neath and Caerffili - not well enough to win this GE but setting up for win at next Senedd election.

    3. Labour have given up in Bridgend - but getting a bit confident in Vale of Glamorgan



    If Labour have given up on Bridgend, a seat that they had an 11% lead last time, they won't get the Vale which they lost by 4%.
    Those are neighbouring seats.
    That is a good anecdote. Bridgend is seat number 51 I think for Lab to Tory gains based upon required swing.
  • NorthernPowerhouseNorthernPowerhouse Posts: 557
    edited December 2019

    Worth listening to WATO at about 1.20 ish.. 8.undecided voters.. and at the end. The mrssage get brexit done was repeated by at least 6 of the 8 undecided who said if they had to vote.now they would vote tory. dyor but the e message is getting thro
    One guy was vitriolic about Bercow 😀😀😀

    What car would these politicians be:
    Boris BMW or Rolls Royce, if not in politics a second hand car dealer
    Jeremy Corbyn Robin Reliant or Skoda, if not in politics, homeless (!)
    Jo Swinson a Fiat 500, a moped, if not in politics a nursery nurse

    Utterly brutal.
  • 👀😱
  • So: The big question for this election is whether ICM's methodology is very wrong, or unusual for being about right.

    Several of the pollsters have said that the changing political landscape makes it hard to know whether they've got their weightings right. We'll find out on Thursday night.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Second 36% we’ve seen. Will we see a 37%?

    What about ICM in 2017?

    One of the worst.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Anorak said:
    Visit Richmond or the dog gets it!
    Which is the head end? just asking......
  • llefllef Posts: 301
    speedy2 said:

    Penddu2 said:

    Some anecdotes from Wales:

    1. Plaid confident of holding Ceredigion - not so confident in Ynys Mon

    2. Plaid doing well in Neath and Caerffili - not well enough to win this GE but setting up for win at next Senedd election.

    3. Labour have given up in Bridgend - but getting a bit confident in Vale of Glamorgan



    If Labour have given up on Bridgend, a seat that they had an 11% lead last time, they won't get the Vale which they lost by 4%.
    Those are neighbouring seats.
    Plaid's Ceredigion optimism is reflected in the betting - plaid were 6/4 at start of campaign, now widely 8/11
  • Second 36% we’ve seen. Will we see a 37%?

    What about ICM in 2017?

    Like ComRes and BMG, they had some of the highest tory leads (12% in their final poll). Seems like all 3 have gone in the opposite direction this time (ComRes and BMG both greatly overestimated labour in the EU election).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2019
    Stocky said:

    Latest Farage email below ... spot the lie:

    Dear Brexiteer,

    On Wednesday, the eve of the General Election, I will be campaigning in Hartlepool in support of our outstanding candidate, Richard Tice. Come and join me and let’s get Richard over the line!

    In key seats like Hartlepool it’s now a two-horse race between The Brexit Party and a Remainer Labour MP. The message we will be delivering to voters is clear: only Richard Tice and The Brexit Party can beat Corbyn’s Remainer Labour here.

    Join me in Hartlepool on Wednesday, where our team will be leafleting, door-knocking and drumming up support. Don’t miss this chance to make history in Hartlepool!

    What a nerve.

    It's obviously a two horse race between Labour and the Lib Dems!
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Wasn;t it Boon's ICM that were isolated and wrong in 2017? except the other way? (they were predicting a bigger tory maj than most).

    looks like a kneejerk. Who can tell?
  • olmolm Posts: 125
    edited December 2019
    Ave_it said:

    I see CORBYN is in Bristol which is ultra LAB area.

    Is Debbonaire going to lose her seat?! :lol:

    They're trying to push the Green vote away, Greens are after Bristol West...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    If Boris abolishes the license fee, he’s a total legend. I strongly suspect I’m not alone in that view.

    I think loads of lefties are up for it as well now because of Tory Laura and Tory Robinson.
    Tory Robinson who played Baldrick? I thought he was a lefty?!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Second 36% we’ve seen. Will we see a 37%?

    What about ICM in 2017?

    Merely popping in to say that last night I said that I thought the Tory lead might be somewhere between 4-6%.

  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    👀😱

    Are you looking forward to Watford winning on Saturday? Big teams come through!
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Wasn;t it Boon's ICM that were isolated and wrong in 2017? except the other way? (they were predicting a bigger tory maj than most).

    looks like a kneejerk. Who can tell?

    They used a turnout model, instead of just relying on self-reporting... and it turned out to be wank and they've ditched it IIRC.

    Irony is it's plausible their turnout model might have been more appropriate this time round.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    speedy2 said:

    Penddu2 said:

    Some anecdotes from Wales:

    1. Plaid confident of holding Ceredigion - not so confident in Ynys Mon

    2. Plaid doing well in Neath and Caerffili - not well enough to win this GE but setting up for win at next Senedd election.

    3. Labour have given up in Bridgend - but getting a bit confident in Vale of Glamorgan



    If Labour have given up on Bridgend, a seat that they had an 11% lead last time, they won't get the Vale which they lost by 4%.
    Those are neighbouring seats.
    Vale is Alun Cairns seat so likely to buck trend of any large Lab to Con swing in Wales.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Does the feedback from politicians, journos and canvassers feel like a 6 point gap with Labour at Blair 05 levels?
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Second 36% we’ve seen. Will we see a 37%?

    What about ICM in 2017?

    Let's hope not. Maybe a big 32% sample size 40,000,000 on Thursday!
  • Ave_it said:

    👀😱

    Are you looking forward to Watford winning on Saturday? Big teams come through!
    I am. It’ll be fun.
  • In one respect "Oh all the instruments agree". The pollsters are unanimous that Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats have tanked during the campaign.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Does the feedback from politicians, journos and canvassers feel like a 6 point gap with Labour at Blair 05 levels?

    Not with the Corbynista meltdown of last 24 hours
  • melcf said:

    I am sure the Maomentum tw@tter-sphere is firing up retweets galore of Boris photo clip.

    I think he is going to need to find some sort of response.

    No winter crisis, quick lets find something else instead. A single child in a single hospital in the world's largest employer has had a poor experience.
    Check this link and look into your soul
    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mortality-rates-are-on-the-rise-in-the-uk-so-why-is-no-one-talking-about-it
    If not for Corbyn and Brexit, the Toris would be below 250 seats. Last ten years have been a disaster. The effects of which will last decades and take a generation to rectify.
    Now the housing crisis, and Thatcher selling off the housing stock.
    Reduction in the improvement of life expectancy. You get to wear PB's dunce cap for the day.
    https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2019/10/01/life-expectancy-in-england-whats-going-on/
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    If Boris abolishes the license fee, he’s a total legend. I strongly suspect I’m not alone in that view.

    I think loads of lefties are up for it as well now because of Tory Laura and Tory Robinson.
    Tory Robinson who played Baldrick? I thought he was a lefty?!
    Resigned membership over Corbyn (so is now the enemy).
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    If Boris abolishes the license fee, he’s a total legend. I strongly suspect I’m not alone in that view.

    I think loads of lefties are up for it as well now because of Tory Laura and Tory Robinson.
    Tory Robinson who played Baldrick? I thought he was a lefty?!
    But he hates Corbyn's Labour
  • I think between 5 and 10 points is reasonable. 15 seems too high, which means that’s what it will be!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602
    edited December 2019
    Believe it or not, the ICM and Survation polls are within the margin of error of each other, which is 4% to a confidence level of 99%.

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    FUKKKKKKK

    Just as I was beginning to relax. A bit. ICMMMMM

    FUKKKKKKK
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Anorak said:
    Carrie has lent her Dil to Zac.

    Sounds like the 'plot' of an adult video.
  • wills66wills66 Posts: 103
    Not unless it's a late and accelerating trend, which I'm not completely discounting.

    At the beginning of the campaign ICM had the Tory lead at 7pts, now it's 6pts. Pretty much every polling organisation has the Tory lead currently within 1-2pts of where they had it at the beginning of the campaign. The only exceptions being Survation (larger lead), Kantar and Ipsos Mori (both smaller leads but still double figures).

    I wonder if we're looking at a return to the boring old "campaigns change nothing" times?

    WillS
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Consider the chaos that will ensue, if it is a Hung Parliament.

    Another year of madness, another EU referendum (and then what??), probably a Scottish referendum, endless currency turmoil, investment collapse, property prices reeling, the works.

    FFS.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981

    So: The big question for this election is whether ICM's methodology is very wrong, or unusual for being about right.

    Several of the pollsters have said that the changing political landscape makes it hard to know whether they've got their weightings right. We'll find out on Thursday night.

    I think I'll wait for yougov's welsh barometer.

    Last time it was pretty accurate and you could see that nationally it was going to be a close race.
    The national polls usually show the wrong picture in the last week due to herding but they don't change the numbers for the regional polls because they assume local factors can play an oversized role.

    In 2015 the movements in the last Barometer poll in wales were:

    LAB +3
    CON-1

    National movement

    LAB+1
    CON+1

    In 2017:

    LAB+9
    CON+4

    National movement

    LAB +10
    CON +5
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    No time for complacency!

    Vote CON on Thur to stop the CORBYN/STURGEON regime!
  • Andy_JS said:

    Believe it or not, the ICM and Survation polls are within the margin of error of each other, which is 4% to a confidence level of 99%.

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/

    By that same token, MOE in theory could mean ICM is actually 2% or have I misunderstood (I don’t think it is two points)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Byronic said:

    FUKKKKKKK

    Just as I was beginning to relax. A bit. ICMMMMM

    FUKKKKKKK

    Just chill and read a good book. I can recommend something by S.K. Tremayne.
  • Does the feedback from politicians, journos and canvassers feel like a 6 point gap with Labour at Blair 05 levels?

    https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1203996698248466433
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    To show I can be balanced, I don't think the 1% nudge up by Labour in ICM is the relevant part as that's MoE stuff.

    It's the fact that it 'only' shows a 6% gap.

    I still don't believe 'Flat Cap Fred' will turn out for the tories on the day.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602
    edited December 2019
    Average of the ICM and Survation polls:

    Con 43.5%
    Lab 33.5%

    Almost exactly in line with the average before either of them was released, and very similar to the MRP figures.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Floater said:

    nico67 said:

    Byronic said:

    Stocky said:

    Byronic said:

    Boris has just said he might abolish the BBC licence fee.

    That's really quite stupid. Yes it makes logical sense, the BBC itself is considering a new structure, as the fee is unsustainable. But why say it NOW? Why say anything controversial NOW, when the election is almost over, and probably won?

    This can easily be portrayed - esp by angry BBC journos - as Boris threatening to privatise our beloved Beeb, as well as the NHS, blah blah

    Silly man.

    Why privatise? The opposite surely?
    But that's how it will be portrayed. Boris is making gaffes as we enter the final straight. The guest workers comment. This BBC idea. The kid in the photo - Why not look?

    He's probably as tired as the rest of them. Just three days to go. Help.
    Just a thought...dead cat strategy again....the stuff about the kid not getting a bed is bad. What we do know, the media love to talk about themselves and the BBC going mental should anybody ever suggest that you know the BBC should ever be reformed in anyway.
    Yes he threw in the BBC comment to deflect from the horror interview earlier with ITV. But without the license fee the BBC will not survive in its current form .
    Should the BBC survive in its current form?
    Not bothered if it does - I am unhappy paying for a service I never use though.

    You tube gives me more pleasure than the beeb
    Youtube without adverts is wonderful. But I'm effectively cross-subsidised by the poor souls who put up with ads. every 3 mins., or so it seems when Adblock ever stops working.

    BBC programmes should be free to users and paid out of general taxation as the World Service was funded ... until politicians thought they knew better. Then I'd be contributing to R4 and R3. I currently pay nothing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Andy_JS said:

    Believe it or not, the ICM and Survation polls are within the margin of error of each other, which is 4% to a confidence level of 99%.

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/

    By that same token, MOE in theory could mean ICM is actually 2% or have I misunderstood (I don’t think it is two points)
    That would put it even more at odds with all other polls.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602

    Andy_JS said:

    Believe it or not, the ICM and Survation polls are within the margin of error of each other, which is 4% to a confidence level of 99%.

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/

    By that same token, MOE in theory could mean ICM is actually 2% or have I misunderstood (I don’t think it is two points)
    2% what?

  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Byronic said:

    Consider the chaos that will ensue, if it is a Hung Parliament.

    FFS.

    'Cos Johnson brings nothing but strong and stable government.

    We've had 9 yrs of tory shambles. It's time for a radical shift.
  • Ave_it said:

    I see CORBYN is in Bristol which is ultra LAB area.

    Is Debbonaire going to lose her seat?! :lol:

    What the hell is he doing there. It is literally West Country Islington.
    For probably much the same reason as Neil Kinnock attended his famous "We're all right, we're all right" rally in Sheffield ... I think it's commonly known as kidding yourself!
  • wills66 said:

    Not unless it's a late and accelerating trend, which I'm not completely discounting.

    At the beginning of the campaign ICM had the Tory lead at 7pts, now it's 6pts. Pretty much every polling organisation has the Tory lead currently within 1-2pts of where they had it at the beginning of the campaign. The only exceptions being Survation (larger lead), Kantar and Ipsos Mori (both smaller leads but still double figures).

    I wonder if we're looking at a return to the boring old "campaigns change nothing" times?

    WillS
    A +1 and a -1 the rest static is basically no change. As others have stated the real issue is whether ICM are more accurate with the gap.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    I am going to do my tax returns, as that is literally preferable to this endless anxiety
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    To show I can be balanced, I don't think the 1% nudge up by Labour in ICM is the relevant part as that's MoE stuff.

    It's the fact that it 'only' shows a 6% gap.

    I still don't believe 'Flat Cap Fred' will turn out for the tories on the day.

    Your term 'Flat Cap Fred' both breathtakingly patronising and wildly anachronistic, perfectly encapsulates why he will
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    Byronic said:

    FUKKKKKKK

    Just as I was beginning to relax. A bit. ICMMMMM

    FUKKKKKKK

    Shouldn't that be FUNKKKK ?
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    Andy_JS said:

    Believe it or not, the ICM and Survation polls are within the margin of error of each other, which is 4% to a confidence level of 99%.

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/

    That reminds me that the error margin to predict the course of a hurricane a few days in advance is the size of 2 Texas.
  • melcfmelcf Posts: 166

    melcf said:

    I am sure the Maomentum tw@tter-sphere is firing up retweets galore of Boris photo clip.

    I think he is going to need to find some sort of response.

    No winter crisis, quick lets find something else instead. A single child in a single hospital in the world's largest employer has had a poor experience.
    Check this link and look into your soul
    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mortality-rates-are-on-the-rise-in-the-uk-so-why-is-no-one-talking-about-it
    If not for Corbyn and Brexit, the Toris would be below 250 seats. Last ten years have been a disaster. The effects of which will last decades and take a generation to rectify.
    Now the housing crisis, and Thatcher selling off the housing stock.
    Reduction in the improvement of life expectancy. You get to wear PB's dunce cap for the day.
    https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2019/10/01/life-expectancy-in-england-whats-going-on/
    Whatever floats your boat, Einstein. Death rates have been rising and cancer survival rates are the lowest, by Western standards
    https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/newsevents/news/2018/rising-death-rates-england-and-wales-must-be-investigated
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,123
    edited December 2019
    After Centrist_Phone has reweighted this ICM poll, he will have Labour ahead by 1% and putting that into Barensian model will have Labour landslide....
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    When is the last YouGov MRP? Isn't it tomorrow??

    I feel sure that will tell us.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    If margins of error are 4% then on the survation the tory lead could be 18 points I guess.

    So the pollsters are telling us the tory lead is....oooh.....anything between two and eighteen points.

    Thanks guys.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    The Wales poll could be interesting. In 2017 we saw CON doing well in Wales in early polls which melted away by the last one. And CON results were really bad in Wales despite expectations.

    so IF this poll due at 5pm is good for CON then it could be CON gain Wrexham, Bridgend, Delyn, Ynys Mon and er Ogmore!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602
    edited December 2019
    If all the polls were showing exactly the same thing it would be proof they were wrong, (for a statistical reason I don't fully understand, although the basic idea makes sense). It happened in the Australian election a few months ago.

    http://freerangestats.info/blog/2019/05/15/polls-misc

    "Another issue I and others have been pondering is the low level of variation between polls. Of the last 16 published national polls, 7 have placed the ALP two-party-preferred vote at 51%, 7 at 52%, and one each at 52.5% and 53%. As Mark the Ballot points out, that’s less variation than you’d expect if they really were based on random samples. The most likely explanation for this underdispersion is that polling firms are introducing errors in their processing that push their polls towards a consensus view. This is a known phenomenon around the world, as this 2014 article by Nate Silver on FiveThirtyEight demonstrates. The net effect is to reduce the usefulness of polls, by bringing them towards a pundit-based folly of the crowds consensus."
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Andy_JS said:

    Average of the ICM and Survation polls:

    Con 43.5%
    Lab 33.5%

    Almost exactly in line with the average before either of them was released, and very similar to the MRP figures.

    I've never understood why people post up or even look at poll averages. All they do is confirm herding bias.

    Either all of the polls are wrong (as I think) or one of them is right. The chances of the mean across all polls being correct is slim.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Gin. I need GIN
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    kjohnw1 said:

    Does the feedback from politicians, journos and canvassers feel like a 6 point gap with Labour at Blair 05 levels?

    https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1203996698248466433
    Pretty sure we had stuff like this last time...
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Ave_it said:

    I see CORBYN is in Bristol which is ultra LAB area.

    Is Debbonaire going to lose her seat?! :lol:

    What the hell is he doing there. It is literally West Country Islington.
    I expect Con to gain Bristol NW.
    What makes you say that - any local knowledge? Can get 13/8 Tories.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    wills66 said:

    Not unless it's a late and accelerating trend, which I'm not completely discounting.

    At the beginning of the campaign ICM had the Tory lead at 7pts, now it's 6pts. Pretty much every polling organisation has the Tory lead currently within 1-2pts of where they had it at the beginning of the campaign. The only exceptions being Survation (larger lead), Kantar and Ipsos Mori (both smaller leads but still double figures).

    I wonder if we're looking at a return to the boring old "campaigns change nothing" times?

    WillS
    Survation and ICM together change nothing


  • Byronic said:

    Gin. I need GIN

    Bottles of...
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited December 2019

    To show I can be balanced, I don't think the 1% nudge up by Labour in ICM is the relevant part as that's MoE stuff.

    It's the fact that it 'only' shows a 6% gap.

    I still don't believe 'Flat Cap Fred' will turn out for the tories on the day.

    Your term 'Flat Cap Fred' both breathtakingly patronising and wildly anachronistic, perfectly encapsulates why he will
    It was a quote from a tory poster on here this morning. I think he meant it to be taken light-heartedly. As you should.

    p.s. you joined around the time the election was called. Hmmm ...
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Andy_JS said:

    Average of the ICM and Survation polls:

    Con 43.5%
    Lab 33.5%

    Almost exactly in line with the average before either of them was released, and very similar to the MRP figures.

    I've never understood why people post up or even look at poll averages. All they do is confirm herding bias.

    Either all of the polls are wrong (as I think) or one of them is right. The chances of the mean across all polls being correct is slim.
    The average of polls in 2017 quite correctly showed the trends (ie Labour rising, Tories falling), it just got the size of the dwindling Tory lead wrong

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    alex_ said:


    Labour looks to get votes from the poorest which encourages them to ensure they stay poor. Hence the poverty trap they created ensures they stay impoverished, while ensuring people rent is good for Labour.
    Indeed. Labour chose to be the party for landlords when in government which is why home ownership rates collapsed in this country.
    I think the Tories increasing home ownership rates is good. I think Labour decreasing home ownership rates was bad. What about you?
    All governments this century are responsible for the housing situation, so Labour, Tories and LDs. Likemortgage banking and Help to Buy have happened under the Tory watch though.
    QE began under the last government and was needed as they'd ran out of money. Help to Buy was a Tory idea and has helped lead to record construction and improved home ownership rates I agree.
    Which was my original point. Tories want voters to have capital. They want voters to succeed.
    Labour wants voters to rely upon them.
    The Tories have just presided over a decade where those with assets have raced away from those with wages but no assets. I think the first few years of that were unintended as politicians didnt fully understand what QE was doing and just following central bankers advice. The last few years have been a deliberate continuance, separating the country into haves and have nots. After a decade in power I will judge by their actions and results not their words or spin.
    Obviously I have no time for Labours current economics either. No-one is representing workers interests.
    Capitalism is a terrible system apart from all the other systems that have been tried. Look what happened in Venezuela when they tried to build a socialist utopia.
    Or look at the Scandi economic models? Investment, social equality, focus on education and technology. Sounds good to me.
    Scandinavian model is capitalist with a stronger safety net, it is probably the most market orientated set of economies in the EU outside of the UK.
    Norwegian model is built on oil; the Swedish one is built on timber.
    Don't tell Greta...
    Their plan is to buy their way out.
    https://climateactiontracker.org/countries/norway/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Ave_it said:

    No time for complacency!

    Vote CON on Thur to stop the CORBYN/STURGEON regime!

    Nicola Sturgeon is generally considered to be a more able politician than Bozo, so 'threatening' the nation with her may not be the smartest move for the Tories.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602

    Andy_JS said:

    Average of the ICM and Survation polls:

    Con 43.5%
    Lab 33.5%

    Almost exactly in line with the average before either of them was released, and very similar to the MRP figures.

    I've never understood why people post up or even look at poll averages. All they do is confirm herding bias.

    Either all of the polls are wrong (as I think) or one of them is right. The chances of the mean across all polls being correct is slim.
    Are the FT wrong to use a polling average?

    https://www.ft.com/content/263615ca-d873-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited December 2019

    kjohnw1 said:

    Does the feedback from politicians, journos and canvassers feel like a 6 point gap with Labour at Blair 05 levels?

    https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1203996698248466433
    Pretty sure we had stuff like this last time...
    Well today's post has arrived (all for Mrs Eek as my postal vote has been sent).

    1) hand delivered Tory A5 card.
    1 posted Tory A5 card
    1 Tory letter unopened (as it's not mine to open) but the return address is CCHQ..

    The Tory's definitely think Darlington is worth spending a lot of money on.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    kjohnw1 said:

    Does the feedback from politicians, journos and canvassers feel like a 6 point gap with Labour at Blair 05 levels?

    https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1203996698248466433
    Pretty sure we had stuff like this last time...
    Yep
  • kjohnw1kjohnw1 Posts: 95
    edited December 2019

    After Centrist_Phone has reweighted this ICM poll, he will have Labour ahead by 1% and putting that into Barensian model will have Labour landslide....

    Well according to John McDonnell This morning it will be a labour majority and Richard Burgon says it will be the Tory and Lib Dem leaders resigning on Friday , not Jezza. In other news flying pigs spotted over London. 😂
  • To show I can be balanced, I don't think the 1% nudge up by Labour in ICM is the relevant part as that's MoE stuff.

    It's the fact that it 'only' shows a 6% gap.

    I still don't believe 'Flat Cap Fred' will turn out for the tories on the day.

    Your term 'Flat Cap Fred' both breathtakingly patronising and wildly anachronistic, perfectly encapsulates why he will
    It was a quote from a tory poster on here this morning. I think he meant it to be taken light-heartedly. As you should.

    p.s. you joined around the time the election was called. Hmmm ...
    I don't think it is really any different from Mondeo Man etc. It encapsulates exactly the sort of people the Tories are relying on in order to get a majority.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Barnesian said:

    wills66 said:

    Not unless it's a late and accelerating trend, which I'm not completely discounting.

    At the beginning of the campaign ICM had the Tory lead at 7pts, now it's 6pts. Pretty much every polling organisation has the Tory lead currently within 1-2pts of where they had it at the beginning of the campaign. The only exceptions being Survation (larger lead), Kantar and Ipsos Mori (both smaller leads but still double figures).

    I wonder if we're looking at a return to the boring old "campaigns change nothing" times?

    WillS
    Survation and ICM together change nothing


    323 is a majority with no Sinn Fein!

  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    edited December 2019
    The Tories looking at "either abolishing the licence fee or decriminalising non-payment" is like saying they're looking at either "offering a contract for toenail care in Scunthorpe to the local chiropodists' co-operative or selling the whole entity to US pharma".

    Decriminalising non-payment (despite undoubted difficulties for the BBC in doing so) is not an extreme policy. Abolishing the licence fee is, at least while free-to-air broadcast is still a thing.

    And while both sides of Twitter (and avid followers of the dead tree press) hate BBC News and everyone grumbles about paying the licence fee, I'd take a punt that killing off the BBC or holing it beneath the water line would not be electorally successful.

    Come the next charter (ie from 2028), my best bet is that the funding will split between a subscription to access Strictly, Attenborough and the rest of BBC One's hits plus some well-loved specialist stuff online, and a hugely pared-down tax solution (either a grant, hypothecated Income Tax or attached to your broadband or leccy bill etc) for any other stuff which government deems to be a public good.

    I suspect that may mean a rapid end to free-to-air terrestrial broadcasting altogether. The BBC pays a significant share of transmitting it at the moment, and Freeview would be a less attractive platform for others once it had left. Maybe the market will be at that point anyway by then. Or maybe there'll still be a generation of confused old Tory voters who've never heard of Netflix wondering where Eastenders and Poldark have gone.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    edited December 2019
    I usually don't post tweets, but this one caught my eye because it also caught my eye on the EU referendum, the people who are too poor to usually vote did vote in the EU referendum and for Leave:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1204050910772633602
  • I think between 5 and 10 points is reasonable. 15 seems too high, which means that’s what it will be!

    I am going with 10pp with risks skewed towards a lower number. Anything outside a 4-12pp range would constitute a genuine surprise, in my view.
    MoE calculations around polls these days are BS because none of them are random samples, they are all an effort to generate a pseudorandom sample by weighting on demographics. The results are so dependent on the assumptions employed, and the uncertainties around those assumptions are huge and hard to quantify.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    To show I can be balanced, I don't think the 1% nudge up by Labour in ICM is the relevant part as that's MoE stuff.

    It's the fact that it 'only' shows a 6% gap.

    I still don't believe 'Flat Cap Fred' will turn out for the tories on the day.

    Your term 'Flat Cap Fred' both breathtakingly patronising and wildly anachronistic, perfectly encapsulates why he will
    He ?
    Sexist. :smile:
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    speedy2 said:

    I usually don't post tweets, but this one caught my eye because it also caught my eye on the EU referendum, the people who are too poor to usually vote did vote in the EU referendum and for Leave:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1204050910772633602

    If Boris gets those people out he will definitely have won...
  • Byronic said:

    When is the last YouGov MRP? Isn't it tomorrow??

    I feel sure that will tell us.

    Last MRP tomorrow.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    To show I can be balanced, I don't think the 1% nudge up by Labour in ICM is the relevant part as that's MoE stuff.

    It's the fact that it 'only' shows a 6% gap.

    I still don't believe 'Flat Cap Fred' will turn out for the tories on the day.

    Your term 'Flat Cap Fred' both breathtakingly patronising and wildly anachronistic, perfectly encapsulates why he will
    It was a quote from a tory poster on here this morning. I think he meant it to be taken light-heartedly. As you should.

    p.s. you joined around the time the election was called. Hmmm ...
    I don't think it is really any different from Mondeo Man etc. It encapsulates exactly the sort of people the Tories are relying on in order to get a majority.
    Yeah I think it's rather good as long as one takes it light-heartedly.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,123
    edited December 2019
    speedy2 said:

    I usually don't post tweets, but this one caught my eye because it also caught my eye on the EU referendum, the people who are too poor to usually vote did vote in the EU referendum and for Leave:

    twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1204050910772633602

    The problem with Lewis is he is totally partial towards Labour. John Harris on the other hand, despite clearly been left leaning, does seem to manage to put that aside and over the course of last 3 elections (2 GE, Brexit) has had a good finger on the pulse.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Ave_it said:

    Barnesian said:

    wills66 said:

    Not unless it's a late and accelerating trend, which I'm not completely discounting.

    At the beginning of the campaign ICM had the Tory lead at 7pts, now it's 6pts. Pretty much every polling organisation has the Tory lead currently within 1-2pts of where they had it at the beginning of the campaign. The only exceptions being Survation (larger lead), Kantar and Ipsos Mori (both smaller leads but still double figures).

    I wonder if we're looking at a return to the boring old "campaigns change nothing" times?

    WillS
    Survation and ICM together change nothing


    323 is a majority with no Sinn Fein!

    Depends on how many seats Sinn Fein get...
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    kjohnw1 said:

    Does the feedback from politicians, journos and canvassers feel like a 6 point gap with Labour at Blair 05 levels?

    https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1203996698248466433
    Pretty sure we had stuff like this last time...
    Yep
    But what we had in 2017, and don't have this time, was breathless, upbeat and excited reports from Labour activists, revealing the Corbyn Surge (which was matched by his dizzying ascent in the leader polls). Plus those huge rallies, Oh Jerremmy Corrrbynnn etc etc etc

    None of that applies now. Instead Labour canvassers are nearly all gloomy, suspicious, puzzled.

    It is just anecdata, but it IS anecdata.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    Ave_it said:

    Barnesian said:

    wills66 said:

    Not unless it's a late and accelerating trend, which I'm not completely discounting.

    At the beginning of the campaign ICM had the Tory lead at 7pts, now it's 6pts. Pretty much every polling organisation has the Tory lead currently within 1-2pts of where they had it at the beginning of the campaign. The only exceptions being Survation (larger lead), Kantar and Ipsos Mori (both smaller leads but still double figures).

    I wonder if we're looking at a return to the boring old "campaigns change nothing" times?

    WillS
    Survation and ICM together change nothing


    323 is a majority with no Sinn Fein!

    Depends on how many seats Sinn Fein get...
    More than 3 so yes it's a majority...
  • Betfair has hardly shifted.
This discussion has been closed.