I see that the Labour pivot to Leave has begun. Ed Miliband says that he wants to get Brexit sorted. He claims to have voted for a deal 9 times. He should have put it on a headstone.
Totally shameless. And I fear enough people will buy this BS.
I am still waiting for the Tories to begin their campaign....like last time, they appear to be leaving it very late! Did they not learn anything from 2010/2015, you attack from the moment you get in power and never let up. You don't wait until you are attacked, then react, it is too late.
e.g. they must have known Jezza would try the NHS up for sale stuff, why was Boris out on every hospital visit saying I can guarantee you, the NHS will never be part of a trade deal, etc etc etc.
Possibly because the NHS will be part of the trade deal and to say it won't is to tar the start of your government?
It just won’t be though. No British Gvt is going to accept that NICE represents a non-tariff barrier and scrap it, so there can be limited movement on drugs. In terms of health provision, we’re not changing our model and US companies are already free to bid for work if they want to.
Maybe they've just written off Scotland and are banking on the SNP voting with them anyway?
Which works but contains the danger that if you end up with say:-
Con 308 Lab 256 SNP 50 Lib Dem 13 Others 4 Speaker 1 NI18
And the SNP are then granted their referendum and win it what then?
The Govt could hardly negotiate Scotland's exit (ie with the SNP) when without the SNP in the HoC it not only does it have a majority in the seats that would be rUK, the Cons in fact do. A cocktail to make the past couple of years look like Swiss local government by comparison.
That IPSOS More poll: Ipsos MORI interviewed a representative sample of 1,046 adults aged 16+ across Scotland. Probably marginal but that may have helped Lab & SNP
Planting 350m in one day as a one off when you've spent time preparing for that one day is very possible. All those young trees that got planted took time to develop to the point they were ready to be planted. If at the end of that day they'd thought "that was fun, lets do it again tomorrow" then that wouldn't have worked.
That's before we consider where we'd find the space for the billions and billions of trees spoken about. Ethiopia is of course 4.5 times the size of the entire United Kingdom.
We'd only need to plant 350m trees in a day six times, over twenty years, to hit the Labour target. Plenty of time to prepare for each mega planting day. Land could be a challenge, but, were we to be free of [the CAP thanks to] Brexit there is a lot of money that currently subsidizes marginal agriculture that could be used to incentivise landowners to plant trees instead. It doesn't look absurdly impossible to me.
There is no mechanism within our Parliamentary democracy for a third party after an election to demand another party change its leader.
And no self-respecting party is going to agree to another party saying its leader must be XXX.
But a self-respecting party is entitled to say “we won’t support you under your current leadership.” Corbyn handing over to McDonnell is no improvement. McDonnell is a dangerous man. If the Lib Dems give any impression at all that they will support either of them in power they risk losing even more votes from people who cannot abide them and/or think of them as Leavers. I simply do not trust Corbyn or McDonnell with power. I don’t trust Johnson either. The Lib Dems seem to be going nowhere, even in my constituency if that poll is right. So what to do?
You're Kilburn & Hampstead, no?
Sitting MP Tulip Siddiq is pretty good. She's no Corbynista and strongly pro-Remain. She won't necessarily hold on though, if what i hear is correct. The LDs are expecting a strong performance.
You're spoilt for choice, Ms Cyclefree!
Tulip is ok. She has been very active in trying to help that poor Iranian woman locked up in prison. She rather blotted her copybook in relation to the Bangladeshi man who asked for her help and the nasty way she responded to the Channel 4 reporter. But it doesn’t matter that she was pro Remain and that she’s not a Corbynista. A vote for her is a vote for Corbyn as PM, McDonnell as Chancellor and Corbynista policies. She’s deluding herself and the voters if she thinks - or tries to pretend - otherwise. Same for all the other Labour MPS who are trying to pretend Corbyn is not their leader. Edited: and indeed all those Labour voters deluding themselves they can get Labour without Corbyn.
The only conceivable way to get Labour without Cornyn would be if the Lib Dems held the balance of power.
On tree planting - does nobody else remember "Plant A Tree in '73?" we all filed out of class to the playground where we were allowed to choose a tree - they were a mix of large twig sized trees - I think it was supposed to replace all the elms or something - anyway I planted mine in the back garden of our council house and it promptly died - just like most of them must have done.
rather than the silly broadband idea Jezza should have announced the National Tree planting service - all young people conscripted to do six months of tree planting before being allowed to leave school or start university -
a nice uniform, sitting around a campfire singing songs of the workers' struggle and guaranteed opportunities for sexy fun-time - would have been a winner and he could have promised to pay them all 30k in 'forest bonds'
Interesting to see that Boris is in North Devon today, after his visit to St Ives. If the MRP is right, he's wasting his time as these seats should be in the bag.
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
I see that the Labour pivot to Leave has begun. Ed Miliband says that he wants to get Brexit sorted. He claims to have voted for a deal 9 times. He should have put it on a headstone.
Totally shameless. And I fear enough people will buy this BS.
I am still waiting for the Tories to begin their campaign....like last time, they appear to be leaving it very late! Did they not learn anything from 2010/2015, you attack from the moment you get in power and never let up. You don't wait until you are attacked, then react, it is too late.
e.g. they must have known Jezza would try the NHS up for sale stuff, why was Boris out on every hospital visit saying I can guarantee you, the NHS will never be part of a trade deal, etc etc etc.
Possibly because the NHS will be part of the trade deal and to say it won't is to tar the start of your government?
It just won’t be though. No British Gvt is going to accept that NICE represents a non-tariff barrier and scrap it, so there can be limited movement on drugs. In terms of health provision, we’re not changing our model and US companies are already free to bid for work if they want to.
If I thought Johnson had shown a country over party mentality then yes. IMO he needs a quick deal and sacrifices will have to be made. if not over drug pricing something the Donald has been remarkably consistent on then where?
On tree planting - does nobody else remember "Plant A Tree in '73?" we all filed out of class to the playground where we were allowed to choose a tree - they were a mix of large twig sized trees - I think it was supposed to replace all the elms or something - anyway I planted mine in the back garden of our council house and it promptly died - just like most of them must have done.
rather than the silly broadband idea Jezza should have announced the National Tree planting service - all young people conscripted to do six months of tree planting before being allowed to leave school or start university -
a nice uniform, sitting around a campfire singing songs of the workers' struggle and guaranteed opportunities for sexy fun-time - would have been a winner and he could have promised to pay them all 30k in 'forest bonds'
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Look we all know this is nonsense and there’s no undecideds here to be convinced.
On tree planting - does nobody else remember "Plant A Tree in '73?" we all filed out of class to the playground where we were allowed to choose a tree - they were a mix of large twig sized trees - I think it was supposed to replace all the elms or something - anyway I planted mine in the back garden of our council house and it promptly died - just like most of them must have done.
rather than the silly broadband idea Jezza should have announced the National Tree planting service - all young people conscripted to do six months of tree planting before being allowed to leave school or start university -
a nice uniform, sitting around a campfire singing songs of the workers' struggle and guaranteed opportunities for sexy fun-time - would have been a winner and he could have promised to pay them all 30k in 'forest bonds'
Songs about property rights in the day after today?
Interesting to see that Boris is in North Devon today, after his visit to St Ives. If the MRP is right, he's wasting his time as these seats should be in the bag.
It might not be right - St Ives, North Devon are sensible places to head on Tory defence. Will he do some surfing in Croyde though ?
However theres zip chance of a Labour majority government and Corbyn would always need the support of the SNP anyway .
As for Labours change of plan in the north and the Midlands , they also need to take into account though that even though there are lots of Leave seats there over half of their voters in those constituencies still went for Remain in the EU referendum .
It is probably a risk worth taking given the polls and Labour Leavers are less Leave than on the Tory side .
No its not. According to the polls over 40% of voters are voting for Johnson's party and over 30% of voters are voting for Corbyn's party with no other party beating single digits except Swinson's who struggling to be in the low teens. It doesn't matter what electoral system you have with those numbers - either you will have Corbyn or Johnson as PM afterwards. If you can't stand either then either pick the lesser evil or waste your vote. Those are the candidates to choose from though.
Your argument presupposes that people vote for those parties positively, whereas FPTP encourages people to vote negatively. FPTP forces people into a binary choice because fear of the worst option/the wasted vote argument reinforces it. Given a free choice, it's highly likely support for the Brexservative Party and the Revolutionary Labour Party would plummet.
Because PR politics is so moderate right? You wouldn't see the Freedom Party in Austria or Likud in Israel or Five Star or Lega Nord in Italy enter office under PR systems would you? Oh . . .
Don’t forget that the 2015 UK election under PR would have resulted in a massive majority for a Con/UKIP coalition.
Looks like we're on course for a massive ConservativeBrexit Party victory.
Under PR, extremists exist in separate parties. Under FPTP they take over established mainstream ones.
Exactly right which is precisely why our FPTP system has presented with the stunning choice of Corbyn or Johnson and the best either of them can offer us is they aren't as bad as the other one.
Funny that every country in Europe has PR of some sort and I don't see any clamour anywhere to switch to the wonderful British or more acurately English system (as Scotland, Wales and NI already have PR in one form or another)
It's the same mentality, that resulted us being the only country wanting to leave the EU. The delusion that Britain is brighter and better than everyone else.
Italy adopted a British “winners bonus” approach to its electoral system a few years back, so fed up were they of PR.
I see that the Labour pivot to Leave has begun. Ed Miliband says that he wants to get Brexit sorted. He claims to have voted for a deal 9 times. He should have put it on a headstone.
Totally shameless. And I fear enough people will buy this BS.
I am still waiting for the Tories to begin their campaign....like last time, they appear to be leaving it very late! Did they not learn anything from 2010/2015, you attack from the moment you get in power and never let up. You don't wait until you are attacked, then react, it is too late.
e.g. they must have known Jezza would try the NHS up for sale stuff, why was Boris out on every hospital visit saying I can guarantee you, the NHS will never be part of a trade deal, etc etc etc.
Possibly because the NHS will be part of the trade deal and to say it won't is to tar the start of your government?
It just won’t be though. No British Gvt is going to accept that NICE represents a non-tariff barrier and scrap it, so there can be limited movement on drugs. In terms of health provision, we’re not changing our model and US companies are already free to bid for work if they want to.
If I thought Johnson had shown a country over party mentality then yes. IMO he needs a quick deal and sacrifices will have to be made. if not over drug pricing something the Donald has been remarkably consistent on then where?
I don’t see what you think is the upside for him in that though. Even if Boris was being utterly cynical he’d dismiss it as it would make him swiftly hated and he wants to be loved. There’s more chance of him channeling his inner High Grant and giving Trump both barrels in December (trusting that he won’t be re-elected and he’ll win favour with the next one).
East renfrewshire is an interesting one. It ought to revert to SNP on these figures but I've seen comments (no idea on credibility of these) that it will have the biggest tory majority in the GE in Scotland. Ok that could well be silly ramping but there appears a confidence around it that isn't there with other seats
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Look we all know this is nonsense and there’s no undecideds here to be convinced.
The intellectual and moral godfathers of the current Tory party - Farage and Hannan - have both expressed their disdain. You need to look beyond Boris's cheeky grin.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
Planting 350m in one day as a one off when you've spent time preparing for that one day is very possible. All those young trees that got planted took time to develop to the point they were ready to be planted. If at the end of that day they'd thought "that was fun, lets do it again tomorrow" then that wouldn't have worked.
That's before we consider where we'd find the space for the billions and billions of trees spoken about. Ethiopia is of course 4.5 times the size of the entire United Kingdom.
We'd only need to plant 350m trees in a day six times, over twenty years, to hit the Labour target. Plenty of time to prepare for each mega planting day. Land could be a challenge, but, were we to be free of [the CAP thanks to] Brexit there is a lot of money that currently subsidizes marginal agriculture that could be used to incentivise landowners to plant trees instead. It doesn't look absurdly impossible to me.
Seeds aren't trees... about 99% of them will never grow,
So if any figures are based on 'seeds' planted, then it's not what is actually required.
Guess you didn't read the article? "“If you do aerial spreading–you just spread seeds wherever–maybe they hit a rock, maybe they hit a swamp, and they’re not going to survive. But we can basically control for that.” "In the U.K., where the test plots have been in place for more than a year, the trees are showing good rates of survival. “[Survival rates are] definitely much better than spreading from a helicopter, which many people use,” says Fedorenko. “In some species, it’s comparable with hand planting.”
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Look we all know this is nonsense and there’s no undecideds here to be convinced.
The intellectual and moral godfathers of the current Tory party - Farage and Hannan - have both expressed their disdain. You need to look beyond Boris's cheeky grin.
Yes, insulting me will definitely convince me. It’s nonsense because: a) there will never be democratic consent to end the principle of national, single-provider healthcare; b) there would never be a Commons majority for it; and c) therefore no Gvt will ever propose it. But you know that really.
Delighted with the 12 bets I`ve placed this morning. I`ve done no work, but feel that I`ve done a good morning`s work, if you know what I mean. Wife won`t see it that way.
Yes, it’s possible those SNP numbers are right and the base is very motivated/fired up this time.
However, there will be a counteraction to that (particularly since the polling shows it at best 50/50) so I’d expect the Tories to do fairly well in defence, and maybe pick up Lanark and Hamilton East too.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
So what is someone in the 1% to do? Vote conservative and you are a selfish *&%$. Vote Labour and you slagged off as someone who can "afford to be a socialist".
Be well-educated enough to understand that policies such as Labour are putting forward will disproportionately affect the poor. Of whom socialists generally see themselves champion.
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Look we all know this is nonsense and there’s no undecideds here to be convinced.
The intellectual and moral godfathers of the current Tory party - Farage and Hannan - have both expressed their disdain. You need to look beyond Boris's cheeky grin.
Yes, insulting me will definitely convince me. It’s nonsense because: a) there will never be democratic consent to end the principle of national, single-provider healthcare; b) there would never be a Commons majority for it; and c) therefore no Gvt will ever propose it. But you know that really.
Why should we believe Boris? Its not like he doesn’t have a reputation or anything.
Patients waiting up to 4 hours in the Ambulances before going into the Emergency Dept yesterday. We are on Opel 4 (the new euphemism for black alert) again.
But it's all fine and dandy for increased staff retention apparently.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Oh yes. Matt Hancock. A pillar of integrity.
Thanks for that informative addition to the discussion
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Oh yes. Matt Hancock. A pillar of integrity.
Thanks for that informative addition to the discussion
Well its true. Why would anyone believe a thing that comes out of their two mouths?
There’s an argument that Boris should turn up to the debate tomorrow with no notice, and wrong foot Corbyn, to rubbish him on the NHS when he’s not there. Must be under consideration.
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Thatcher hated the NHS, hence we got the 'internal market'.
Tories won't abolish or privatise the NHS, they'll just turn it into Medicaid and most people will be told to buy insurance.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Oh yes. Matt Hancock. A pillar of integrity.
Thanks for that informative addition to the discussion
Well its true. Why would anyone believe a thing that comes out of their two mouths?
Everything`s relative. You seen the Labour front bench?
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Oh yes. Matt Hancock. A pillar of integrity.
Thanks for that informative addition to the discussion
Well its true. Why would anyone believe a thing that comes out of their two mouths?
If it's true that hes a pillar of integrity it rather supports my point.
Obviously you were being a sarcy pants but it's what the electorate think that matters not you. The accusation has been refuted, repeatedly. Over to the voters....
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
But he has said is already, repeatedly and explicitly. In the head to head with Corbyn he said it a couple of times.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Oh yes. Matt Hancock. A pillar of integrity.
Thanks for that informative addition to the discussion
Well its true. Why would anyone believe a thing that comes out of their two mouths?
Everything`s relative. You seen the Labour front bench?
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Look we all know this is nonsense and there’s no undecideds here to be convinced.
The intellectual and moral godfathers of the current Tory party - Farage and Hannan - have both expressed their disdain. You need to look beyond Boris's cheeky grin.
Yes, insulting me will definitely convince me. It’s nonsense because: a) there will never be democratic consent to end the principle of national, single-provider healthcare; b) there would never be a Commons majority for it; and c) therefore no Gvt will ever propose it. But you know that really.
Why should we believe Boris? Its not like he doesn’t have a reputation or anything.
This isn’t about whether You believe Boris. My original point was that everyone in here is intelligent enough to know that no conceivable Tory Gvt is going to actually threaten the NHS. Those of you who are politically active might have to claim otherwise when you’re persuading voters, but you don’t actually believe it. You’re not that stupid.
This isn’t about whether You believe Boris. My original point was that everyone in here is intelligent enough to know that no conceivable Tory Gvt is going to actually threaten the NHS. Those of you who are politically active might have to claim otherwise when you’re persuading voters, but you don’t actually believe it.
So if its either that or no trade deal with the US you think Boris will walk away?
Why wouldn't it be a good thing for pharma to be included in a UK-US trade deal, if the result of its inclusion were to ensure that we didn't overcharge each other for new drugs?
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Thatcher hated the NHS, hence we got the 'internal market'.
Tories won't abolish or privatise the NHS, they'll just turn it into Medicaid and most people will be told to buy insurance.
We keep being told that the NHS in this country is better and more cost efficient and cheaper than other countries?
So might not the 'internal market' have worked in its intentions?
Hold up, this reminds me of @Casino_Royale message right before the referendum that it was safe to vote leave because they couldn't win in order to close the gap and not give us a mandate to join the Euro or some such.
Yes. The parallels are deeply poignant. A lot of idiot Remainers will vote tactically me we will end up with Jeremy fucking Corbyn in number 10. I despair.
Mad pb Remainers need to explain how a Corbyn NOM government WON’T cause endless chaos and pain for all.
Think about it. Another EU referendum. That’s another year of instability and division. At the end the referendum might well be lost to Leave anyway. And if it isn’t, incalculable damage will have been done to British democracy, with the powerful telling the poor their votes just aren’t worth much. And can be overruled. Appalling. Shameful
And of course another EU referendum will mean the Toriies will promise a third referendum - they will have to. And eventually they win and off we go again. Decades of this terrible shit.
Meanwhile there will be another Scottish vote, possibly breaking up the country. And a run on the pound. And soaring interest rates. And economic grief for everybody.
Get a fucking grip you selfish morons. A 2nd referendum solves nothing and makes it all a lot lot worse. A 2nd referendum delivered by the Marxist Jeremy Corbyn is a national disaster which makes Brexit look like a mild head cold.
Why wouldn't it be a good thing for pharma to be included in a UK-US trade deal, if the result of its inclusion were to ensure that we didn't overcharge each other for new drugs?
This isn’t about whether You believe Boris. My original point was that everyone in here is intelligent enough to know that no conceivable Tory Gvt is going to actually threaten the NHS. Those of you who are politically active might have to claim otherwise when you’re persuading voters, but you don’t actually believe it.
So if its either that or no trade deal with the US you think Boris will walk away?
Yes, because it would be bad politics not to. Also you’re more intelligent than this - it won’t be take it or leave it. We’ll refuse to budge on NICE and food labelling, and the US will therefore withhold other things (probably something around services). There’ll be a deal, but one that’s more limited in scope.
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Thatcher hated the NHS, hence we got the 'internal market'.
Tories won't abolish or privatise the NHS, they'll just turn it into Medicaid and most people will be told to buy insurance.
We keep being told that the NHS in this country is better and more cost efficient and cheaper than other countries?
So might not the 'internal market' have worked in its intentions?
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Neither he nor Hancock have said that they would forego a trade deal with the US to protect the NHS ie in the terms I have put. That is what needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly, if they want shut down - or try to - the story. They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Look we all know this is nonsense and there’s no undecideds here to be convinced.
The intellectual and moral godfathers of the current Tory party - Farage and Hannan - have both expressed their disdain. You need to look beyond Boris's cheeky grin.
Yes, insulting me will definitely convince me. It’s nonsense because: a) there will never be democratic consent to end the principle of national, single-provider healthcare; b) there would never be a Commons majority for it; and c) therefore no Gvt will ever propose it. But you know that really.
Why should we believe Boris? Its not like he doesn’t have a reputation or anything.
This isn’t about whether You believe Boris. My original point was that everyone in here is intelligent enough to know that no conceivable Tory Gvt is going to actually threaten the NHS. Those of you who are politically active might have to claim otherwise when you’re persuading voters, but you don’t actually believe it. You’re not that stupid.
My problem is that while I can believe no Tory government will actively damage the NHS, the current leadership is stupid enough to do so without realising it.
Why are people reheating exactly the same criticism of the YouGov MRP as last time out?
Leigh is the new Canterbury?
There will absolutely be big misses by the MRP forecast. And as I say I think this is the Tory high watermark.
But the whole "I can't believe in large demographic shifts occuring" when the previous election had large demographics shifts occurring is verging on gamblers fallacy.
The objection to MRP is not "I can't believe in large demographic shifts occurring". Clearly they have. It is reflected in the change in voting intention.
What big misses did MRP make last time, in relation to the main parties?
Biggest Labour outperformance of the Tories from MRP to result (Alastair from Edinburgh's figures) / Ben Walker result figures
Bootle Ilford South Hackney South & Shoreditch Knowsley Liverpool, Walton Manchester, Gorton Harrow West Coatbridge, Chryston & Bellshill Denton & Reddish Birmingham, Hodge Hill
Biggest outperformance of the Tories compared to Labour
Basildon & Billericay Boston & Skegness South Swindon The Cotswolds Harwich & North Essex Westmorland & Lonsdale Castle Point Newark Clacton Thornbury & Yate
In all the above outperformances, the Tories outperformed relative to the Lib Dems (But by a lesser margin) too.
Outperformance by the LDs relative to the Tories
Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross St Albans Manchester, Gorton North Norfolk Bootle Carshalton & Wallington Liverpool, Walton Witney Leeds North West Coatbridge, Chryston & Bellshill
Outperformance by the Tories relative to the Lib Dems
Windsor Brecon and Radnorshire Wycombe Clacton East Devon North East Hampshire Maidstone and The Weald Solihull The Cotswolds Buckingham
Interesting, thanks.
The Labour outperformance includes a lot of seats with ethnic minority populations, whose leavers are less inclined to switchTory than leavers in general. Looks like a small tweak to the model could deal with this.
The Tory outperformance includes some left behind/coastal type places, where perhaps the socio-economic data points toward more Labour support than is the reality given how Brexit they are.
I don’t see any pattern in the LibDem ones except that a batch of them had good candidates and/or campaigns - something the MRP almost inevitable would understate. Interesting that the Tory outperformance v LibDem doesn’t include any seas the LibDems won, or even came close. In East Devon a lot of LibDems voted for the Indy.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Neither he nor Hancock have said that they would forego a trade deal with the US to protect the NHS ie in the terms I have put. That is what needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly, if they want shut down - or try to - the story. They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
He has said we will walk away rather than put the nhs on the table. What do you want? Him naked rocking back and forth promising no sale no sale as he is tortured?
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
I see Hancock cleared up the nurses pledge . By saying the Tories didn’t mean to suggest there would be 50,000 new nurses but 50,000 more nurses . Giving Labour another line of attack . Thanks Matt !
The difference now is that the higher echelons of the Tory party is composed of people who actively hate it. They see state-provided healthcare as a kind of tyranny - the ultimate manifestation of socialism with the government having responsibility over our very bodies. Only by controlling one's own health can one truly be free.
Look we all know this is nonsense and there’s no undecideds here to be convinced.
The intellectual and moral godfathers of the current Tory party - Farage and Hannan - have both expressed their disdain. You need to look beyond Boris's cheeky grin.
>
You don't need to go to them. Raab, Patel, Truss, Skidmore -> they've all co-written a book about how after the coalition govt we need to get the private sector running more health services. Now's their chance. I think their target was 2/3rds of hospitals outside the NHS.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Neither he nor Hancock have said that they would forego a trade deal with the US to protect the NHS ie in the terms I have put. That is what needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly, if they want shut down - or try to - the story. They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
He has said we will walk away rather than put the nhs on the table. What do you want? Him naked rocking back and forth promising no sale no sale as he is tortured?
He also said we would be out of the EU before November and that he would not put a border in the Irish Sea.
Looks like there is a high chance that every single rebel MP is going to be out of parliament?
Whips might get listened to be a bit more next time round...
I think all the independents were sufficiently sickened by the cliques running their parties that their political careers were over already. Many sympathisers who never defected have merely stood down instead, whether ala Morgan and Watson. There is no point in towing the line just to be cannon fodder for legislation that you would rather see fail. When losing your job is desirable, being sacked is no punishment!
Hold up, this reminds me of @Casino_Royale message right before the referendum that it was safe to vote leave because they couldn't win in order to close the gap and not give us a mandate to join the Euro or some such.
Yes. The parallels are deeply poignant. A lot of idiot Remainers will vote tactically me we will end up with Jeremy fucking Corbyn in number 10. I despair.
Mad pb Remainers need to explain how a Corbyn NOM government WON’T cause endless chaos and pain for all.
Think about it. Another EU referendum. That’s another year of instability and division. At the end the referendum might well be lost to Leave anyway. And if it isn’t, incalculable damage will have been done to British democracy, with the powerful telling the poor their votes just aren’t worth much. And can be overruled. Appalling. Shameful
And of course another EU referendum will mean the Toriies will promise a third referendum - they will have to. And eventually they win and off we go again. Decades of this terrible shit.
Meanwhile there will be another Scottish vote, possibly breaking up the country. And a run on the pound. And soaring interest rates. And economic grief for everybody.
Get a fucking grip you selfish morons. A 2nd referendum solves nothing and makes it all a lot lot worse. A 2nd referendum delivered by the Marxist Jeremy Corbyn is a national disaster which makes Brexit look like a mild head cold.
Grow up.
You’re in no position to call out others for voting for chaos and pain. You were so ashamed of your leave vote you had to come back as someone else.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
But he has said is already, repeatedly and explicitly. In the head to head with Corbyn he said it a couple of times.
What - precisely - did Boris say? I did not see that debate. My more general point is that it needs to be said in the clearest possible terms now repeatedly since Labour has sought to make it a story. Of course, I am assuming that what I am saying is Tory policy. If it isn’t that would explain why they are a bit ambiguous in rebutting Labour’s allegations which are also spurious on the basis of the documents being waived about yesterday.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
I see Hancock cleared up the nurses pledge . By saying the Tories didn’t mean to suggest there would be 50,000 new nurses but 50,000 more nurses . Giving Labour another line of attack . Thanks Matt !
The nurses pledge completely unraveled on GMB .
They did not promise 50,000 new nurses and I'll bet you a tenner for charity you cant find a pledge for 50,000 new nurses anywhere in the manifesto if you want to chance your arm?
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Neither he nor Hancock have said that they would forego a trade deal with the US to protect the NHS ie in the terms I have put. That is what needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly, if they want shut down - or try to - the story. They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
He has said we will walk away rather than put the nhs on the table. What do you want? Him naked rocking back and forth promising no sale no sale as he is tortured?
I’ve not watched the debates. I only had the misfortune to listen to Hancock this morning......
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Neither he nor Hancock have said that they would forego a trade deal with the US to protect the NHS ie in the terms I have put. That is what needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly, if they want shut down - or try to - the story. They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
He has said we will walk away rather than put the nhs on the table. What do you want? Him naked rocking back and forth promising no sale no sale as he is tortured?
He also said we would be out of the EU before November and that he would not put a border in the Irish Sea.
Again, that doesn't alter the fact he said what he said and it's now for the voters to decide. You squealing 'fibber!' Wont change a single vote or the outcome in any way. I get that you dont believe him and I accept you genuinely think hes lying here but its completely irrelevant
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Neither he nor Hancock have said that they would forego a trade deal with the US to protect the NHS ie in the terms I have put. That is what needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly, if they want shut down - or try to - the story. They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
He has said we will walk away rather than put the nhs on the table. What do you want? Him naked rocking back and forth promising no sale no sale as he is tortured?
But Bozo has been bigging up all these wonderful trade deals and the USA one is allegedly the greatest so by extension if the NHS is a red line then there won’t be a trade deal because US pharma holds huge sway in Washington . Which in effect means you’ve trashed your trade with the EU and for what . Brexit the stupid gift that just keeps on giving !
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
I see Hancock cleared up the nurses pledge . By saying the Tories didn’t mean to suggest there would be 50,000 new nurses but 50,000 more nurses . Giving Labour another line of attack . Thanks Matt !
The nurses pledge completely unraveled on GMB .
They did not promise 50,000 new nurses and I'll bet you a tenner for charity you cant find a pledge for 50,000 new nurses anywhere in the manifesto if you want to chance your arm?
Yes, the Tories announced this in a cack-handed way but anyone who’s ever run an organisation knows that increasing its size is part recruitment, part retention. Of course very few journalists or politicians have ever run anything so they just see the retention part as an easy “gotcha”.
Non EU migration continues to climb, while the Europeans depart faster than arriving. I don't blame them, indeed I would be keen to join them if it wasn't for family reasons to stay.
There’s an argument that Boris should turn up to the debate tomorrow with no notice, and wrong foot Corbyn, to rubbish him on the NHS when he’s not there. Must be under consideration.
There's an argument that he should turn up for tonight's debate rather than give the impression that he is a climate change denier.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Neither he nor Hancock have said that they would forego a trade deal with the US to protect the NHS ie in the terms I have put. That is what needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly, if they want shut down - or try to - the story. They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
He has said we will walk away rather than put the nhs on the table. What do you want? Him naked rocking back and forth promising no sale no sale as he is tortured?
I’ve not watched the debates. I only had the misfortune to listen to Hancock this morning......
So your argument is based on your assessment of one interview?
There’s an argument that Boris should turn up to the debate tomorrow with no notice, and wrong foot Corbyn, to rubbish him on the NHS when he’s not there. Must be under consideration.
There's an argument that he should turn up for tonight's debate rather than give the impression that he is a climate change denier.
Yes I don’t get why the Tories have conceded this ground. There’s acres of space for a “let’s all be grownups and accept we need to take action but take the public with us” line.
There’s an argument that Boris should turn up to the debate tomorrow with no notice, and wrong foot Corbyn, to rubbish him on the NHS when he’s not there. Must be under consideration.
There's an argument that he should turn up for tonight's debate rather than give the impression that he is a climate change denier.
No one cares about a Channel 4 climate change debate. But I have also considered the idea he turns up late to replace Rishi Sunak. Maybe Corbyn has had similar thoughts too.
I see that the Labour pivot to Leave has begun. Ed Miliband says that he wants to get Brexit sorted. He claims to have voted for a deal 9 times. He should have put it on a headstone.
Totally shameless. And I fear enough people will buy this BS.
I am still waiting for the Tories to begin their campaign....like last time, they appear to be leaving it very late! Did they not learn anything from 2010/2015, you attack from the moment you get in power and never let up. You don't wait until you are attacked, then react, it is too late.
e.g. they must have known Jezza would try the NHS up for sale stuff, why was Boris out on every hospital visit saying I can guarantee you, the NHS will never be part of a trade deal, etc etc etc.
Possibly because the NHS will be part of the trade deal and to say it won't is to tar the start of your government?
It just won’t be though. No British Gvt is going to accept that NICE represents a non-tariff barrier and scrap it, so there can be limited movement on drugs. In terms of health provision, we’re not changing our model and US companies are already free to bid for work if they want to.
If I thought Johnson had shown a country over party mentality then yes. IMO he needs a quick deal and sacrifices will have to be made. if not over drug pricing something the Donald has been remarkably consistent on then where?
I don’t see what you think is the upside for him in that though. Even if Boris was being utterly cynical he’d dismiss it as it would make him swiftly hated and he wants to be loved. There’s more chance of him channeling his inner High Grant and giving Trump both barrels in December (trusting that he won’t be re-elected and he’ll win favour with the next one).
I don't think whatever a PMs feelings they can attack the president in public.
If i'm to put on my foil hat I do not believe that Boris will be restrained by the current cabinet. The direction of travel was set as soon as the 20+ Conservative moderates were removed and I think that leads to the most right wing government in the last 50 years. Britannia Unchained will be the direction and 'starve the beast' will be the outcome for the NHS.
Planting 350m in one day as a one off when you've spent time preparing for that one day is very possible. All those young trees that got planted took time to develop to the point they were ready to be planted. If at the end of that day they'd thought "that was fun, lets do it again tomorrow" then that wouldn't have worked.
That's before we consider where we'd find the space for the billions and billions of trees spoken about. Ethiopia is of course 4.5 times the size of the entire United Kingdom.
We'd only need to plant 350m trees in a day six times, over twenty years, to hit the Labour target. Plenty of time to prepare for each mega planting day. Land could be a challenge, but, were we to be free of [the CAP thanks to] Brexit there is a lot of money that currently subsidizes marginal agriculture that could be used to incentivise landowners to plant trees instead. It doesn't look absurdly impossible to me.
Seeds aren't trees... about 99% of them will never grow,
So if any figures are based on 'seeds' planted, then it's not what is actually required.
99% won't grow ? Suppose an oak has 10,000 acorns (guess but right order of magnitude ) and suppose you don't intervene at any point. Of those carried off perhaps 10 will shoot - I've seen them do it. Then 9 will be eaten. That makes 99.99 % won't grow - about right.
If you intervened and planted them and nourished them - even done that in my time you would get 20% germination and half of those would be viable.
By contrast beech mast has very poor viability at least in this area.
I see that the Labour pivot to Leave has begun. Ed Miliband says that he wants to get Brexit sorted. He claims to have voted for a deal 9 times. He should have put it on a headstone.
Totally shameless. And I fear enough people will buy this BS.
I am still waiting for the Tories to begin their campaign....like last time, they appear to be leaving it very late! Did they not learn anything from 2010/2015, you attack from the moment you get in power and never let up. You don't wait until you are attacked, then react, it is too late.
e.g. they must have known Jezza would try the NHS up for sale stuff, why was Boris out on every hospital visit saying I can guarantee you, the NHS will never be part of a trade deal, etc etc etc.
Possibly because the NHS will be part of the trade deal and to say it won't is to tar the start of your government?
It just won’t be though. No British Gvt is going to accept that NICE represents a non-tariff barrier and scrap it, so there can be limited movement on drugs. In terms of health provision, we’re not changing our model and US companies are already free to bid for work if they want to.
If I thought Johnson had shown a country over party mentality then yes. IMO he needs a quick deal and sacrifices will have to be made. if not over drug pricing something the Donald has been remarkably consistent on then where?
I don’t see what you think is the upside for him in that though. Even if Boris was being utterly cynical he’d dismiss it as it would make him swiftly hated and he wants to be loved. There’s more chance of him channeling his inner High Grant and giving Trump both barrels in December (trusting that he won’t be re-elected and he’ll win favour with the next one).
I don't think whatever a PMs feelings they can attack the president in public.
If i'm to put on my foil hat I do not believe that Boris will be restrained by the current cabinet. The direction of travel was set as soon as the 20+ Conservative moderates were removed and I think that leads to the most right wing government in the last 50 years. Britannia Unchained will be the direction and 'starve the beast' will be the outcome for the NHS.
Starve the beast? Stuffing it with money has been the practice for the last thirty years.
The Tories are not good at shutting down stories are they? Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah. How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
He has said it, repeatedly. As has the health secretary
Neither he nor Hancock have said that they would forego a trade deal with the US to protect the NHS ie in the terms I have put. That is what needs to be said, loudly and repeatedly, if they want shut down - or try to - the story. They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
Yes he did! He literally said he would walk away, what more can he do?
I see that the Labour pivot to Leave has begun. Ed Miliband says that he wants to get Brexit sorted. He claims to have voted for a deal 9 times. He should have put it on a headstone.
Totally shameless. And I fear enough people will buy this BS.
I am still waiting for the Tories to begin their campaign....like last time, they appear to be leaving it very late! Did they not learn anything from 2010/2015, you attack from the moment you get in power and never let up. You don't wait until you are attacked, then react, it is too late.
e.g. they must have known Jezza would try the NHS up for sale stuff, why was Boris out on every hospital visit saying I can guarantee you, the NHS will never be part of a trade deal, etc etc etc.
Possibly because the NHS will be part of the trade deal and to say it won't is to tar the start of your government?
It just won’t be though. No British Gvt is going to accept that NICE represents a non-tariff barrier and scrap it, so there can be limited movement on drugs. In terms of health provision, we’re not changing our model and US companies are already free to bid for work if they want to.
If I thought Johnson had shown a country over party mentality then yes. IMO he needs a quick deal and sacrifices will have to be made. if not over drug pricing something the Donald has been remarkably consistent on then where?
I don’t see what you think is the upside for him in that though. Even if Boris was being utterly cynical he’d dismiss it as it would make him swiftly hated and he wants to be loved. There’s more chance of him channeling his inner High Grant and giving Trump both barrels in December (trusting that he won’t be re-elected and he’ll win favour with the next one).
I don't think whatever a PMs feelings they can attack the president in public.
If i'm to put on my foil hat I do not believe that Boris will be restrained by the current cabinet. The direction of travel was set as soon as the 20+ Conservative moderates were removed and I think that leads to the most right wing government in the last 50 years. Britannia Unchained will be the direction and 'starve the beast' will be the outcome for the NHS.
Starve the beast? Stuffing it with money has been the practice for the last thirty years.
Labour definitely having its Austin Powers moment with these trees. When numbers like that get bandied about it runs the risk of sounding mental even if it's actually doable. It is ripe for mocking. Much better to go with extensive tree planting to increase tree cover by x% rather than spreading tree seed around like lunatics which is how 2 billion sounds
Comments
Con: 6-8
Lab: 1
LD: 2
SNP: 48-50
Never trust a POSSOM is what I say.
Con 308
Lab 256
SNP 50
Lib Dem 13
Others 4
Speaker 1
NI18
And the SNP are then granted their referendum and win it what then?
The Govt could hardly negotiate Scotland's exit (ie with the SNP) when without the SNP in the HoC it not only does it have a majority in the seats that would be rUK, the Cons in fact do. A cocktail to make the past couple of years look like Swiss local government by comparison.
https://twitter.com/Emily_IpsosMORI/status/1200033111494541313?s=20
Ipsos MORI interviewed a representative sample of 1,046 adults aged 16+ across Scotland.
Probably marginal but that may have helped Lab & SNP
https://youtu.be/WJTEa2ARS_I
So if any figures are based on 'seeds' planted, then it's not what is actually required.
ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18066030.falkirk-labour-candidate-dropped-antisemitic-facebook-posts/
rather than the silly broadband idea Jezza should have announced the National Tree planting service - all young people conscripted to do six months of tree planting before being allowed to leave school or start university -
a nice uniform, sitting around a campfire singing songs of the workers' struggle and guaranteed opportunities for sexy fun-time - would have been a winner and he could have promised to pay them all 30k in 'forest bonds'
Will he do some surfing in Croyde though ?
However theres zip chance of a Labour majority government and Corbyn would always need the support of the SNP anyway .
As for Labours change of plan in the north and the Midlands , they also need to take into account though that even though there are lots of Leave seats there over half of their voters in those constituencies still went for Remain in the EU referendum .
It is probably a risk worth taking given the polls and Labour Leavers are less Leave than on the Tory side .
https://twitter.com/BonnieCraven/status/1199824979405234176
The idea of Sutton and Cheam going to Labour at this election is preposterous
You just need to put enough doubt in enough people’s minds and you get your rewards .
Boris should be making a clear statement that the NHS will not be part of a trade deal with the US, no matter what US negotiators may want. And if this means no trade deal with the US, so be it. He can be clear about this unlike Corbyn who lies about what documents say and can’t even be clear about whether he’s for or against Brexit, blah blah.
How hard is this? Isn’t Cummings supposed to be good at this stuff? It’s not as if this is something which has come out of the blue, after all. The longer they leave it the easier it will be for people to suspect that the Tories might do something which might harm the NHS in their desire to get a trade deal.
"“If you do aerial spreading–you just spread seeds wherever–maybe they hit a rock, maybe they hit a swamp, and they’re not going to survive. But we can basically control for that.”
"In the U.K., where the test plots have been in place for more than a year, the trees are showing good rates of survival. “[Survival rates are] definitely much better than spreading from a helicopter, which many people use,” says Fedorenko. “In some species, it’s comparable with hand planting.”
It’s nonsense because: a) there will never be democratic consent to end the principle of national, single-provider healthcare; b) there would never be a Commons majority for it; and c) therefore no Gvt will ever propose it.
But you know that really.
Wife won`t see it that way.
Yes, it’s possible those SNP numbers are right and the base is very motivated/fired up this time.
However, there will be a counteraction to that (particularly since the polling shows it at best 50/50) so I’d expect the Tories to do fairly well in defence, and maybe pick up Lanark and Hamilton East too.
But it's all fine and dandy for increased staff retention apparently.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50586338
Tories won't abolish or privatise the NHS, they'll just turn it into Medicaid and most people will be told to buy insurance.
Obviously you were being a sarcy pants but it's what the electorate think that matters not you. The accusation has been refuted, repeatedly. Over to the voters....
So might not the 'internal market' have worked in its intentions?
Mad pb Remainers need to explain how a Corbyn NOM government WON’T cause endless chaos and pain for all.
Think about it. Another EU referendum. That’s another year of instability and division. At the end the referendum might well be lost to Leave anyway. And if it isn’t, incalculable damage will have been done to British democracy, with the powerful telling the poor their votes just aren’t worth much. And can be overruled. Appalling. Shameful
And of course another EU referendum will mean the Toriies will promise a third referendum - they will have to. And eventually they win and off we go again. Decades of this terrible shit.
Meanwhile there will be another Scottish vote, possibly breaking up the country. And a run on the pound. And soaring interest rates. And economic grief for everybody.
Get a fucking grip you selfish morons. A 2nd referendum solves nothing and makes it all a lot lot worse. A 2nd referendum delivered by the Marxist Jeremy Corbyn is a national disaster which makes Brexit look like a mild head cold.
Grow up.
They are still trying to say that it won’t be on the table and they can get a trade deal with the US when it is clear that the US does want health to be part of the trade discussions. So voters can sense that there is some ambiguity there and because they don’t entirely trust Boris or Hancock, they worry that there might be some truth in what Labour is alleging.
Interesting, thanks.
The Labour outperformance includes a lot of seats with ethnic minority populations, whose leavers are less inclined to switchTory than leavers in general. Looks like a small tweak to the model could deal with this.
The Tory outperformance includes some left behind/coastal type places, where perhaps the socio-economic data points toward more Labour support than is the reality given how Brexit they are.
I don’t see any pattern in the LibDem ones except that a batch of them had good candidates and/or campaigns - something the MRP almost inevitable would understate. Interesting that the Tory outperformance v LibDem doesn’t include any seas the LibDems won, or even came close. In East Devon a lot of LibDems voted for the Indy.
The nurses pledge completely unraveled on GMB .
You don't need to go to them.
Raab, Patel, Truss, Skidmore -> they've all co-written a book about how after the coalition govt we need to get the private sector running more health services. Now's their chance. I think their target was 2/3rds of hospitals outside the NHS.
There is no point in towing the line just to be cannon fodder for legislation that you would rather see fail. When losing your job is desirable, being sacked is no punishment!
Of course, I am assuming that what I am saying is Tory policy. If it isn’t that would explain why they are a bit ambiguous in rebutting Labour’s allegations which are also spurious on the basis of the documents being waived about yesterday.
https://twitter.com/chrishanretty/status/1200043794349068288
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50572105
I'm finding it difficult to see how they are getting much beyond that on a fantastic night but may well fall significantly short on a poor one.
Might be cognitive bias kicking in after 2017.
If i'm to put on my foil hat I do not believe that Boris will be restrained by the current cabinet. The direction of travel was set as soon as the 20+ Conservative moderates were removed and I think that leads to the most right wing government in the last 50 years. Britannia Unchained will be the direction and 'starve the beast' will be the outcome for the NHS.
If you intervened and planted them and nourished them - even done that in my time you would get 20% germination and half of those would be viable.
By contrast beech mast has very poor viability at least in this area.
UK number 34 just above the US.