Doubt it will get anywhere, but may be a laying opportunity for those who bet.
He's apparently looking to file for the Alabama primary (deadline Friday). Seems like keeping options rather than anything else
Michael Bloomberg, the billionaire former mayor of New York City, is laying the groundwork to enter the Democratic presidential race months before voters in Iowa and New Hampshire kick off the fight to choose the 2020 nominee.
Charles ... I think you mean this is a BACKING opportunity, i.e betting on something taking place, rather than a LAYING opportunity which means precisely the opposite ... Oops!
I meant that Bloomberg will not be President but some people might get excited and thereby create an opportunity to bet against the hype
Apologies if I got the terminology wrong (I don’t bet)
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
Charles is a direct descendant of the Prophet Allah, via his Great Aunt Majorie of Little Pricking, Salops.
Jo Swinson should ditch stop Brexit and change her slogan to The Sane Choice!
The Official Monster Raving Loony Party today launched legal action in the High Court to injunct both the Tories and Labour from standing in the 2019 general election.
The party’s leader, a cat, could not be contacted for comment as all pussies are hiding from Boris Johnson. However Howling Lord Hope, the Deputy Leader, was more forthcoming.
‘It’s a fucking disgrace is what it is,’ he said. ‘Here we are, trying to liven things up by putting forward a load of mad policies nobody would vote for, and what do these Socialist and Tory lowlifes do? They put forward manifestoes that are even madder and have one party led by an utter clown with no dress sense and the other led by Boris Johnson. We’re claiming infringement of patent.’
The Tories and Labour were contacted for comment. Labour reiterated that Mr Corbyn has improved his dress sense in recent months, and the Tories said, ‘We’re just awesome so the nutters can go fuck themselves. And that goes for the OMRLP as well.’
Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.
I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.
In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.
This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.
Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.
I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.
Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.
We are some way past the beginning I think.
I’ve never been so depressed about an election campaign, the mindless clapping and orchestrated cheering at rallies is vomit inducing. I just remind myself it’s not a binary choice between what I now see as evil from both left and right. Will others? Maybe but I’m not holding my breath.
Neither main party is fit for office, and both are led by racists. Fortunately we are not forced to choose between those two. Jo can be a little naive at times, but she is a safe pair of hands compared with those two.
And I can’t vote for her.
I would be happy to vote Green in such a constituency, indeed my relatives on the Isle of Wight are planning to do so. Until we have a form of PR, most of us are in safe seats or faced with a pisspoor choice.
Jo Swinson should ditch stop Brexit and change her slogan to The Sane Choice!
The Official Monster Raving Loony Party today launched legal action in the High Court to injunct both the Tories and Labour from standing in the 2019 general election.
The party’s leader, a cat, could not be contacted for comment as all pussies are hiding from Boris Johnson. However Howling Lord Hope, the Deputy Leader, was more forthcoming.
‘It’s a fucking disgrace is what it is,’ he said. ‘Here we are, trying to liven things up by putting forward a load of mad policies nobody would vote for, and what do these Socialist and Tory lowlifes do? They put forward manifestoes that are even madder and have one party led by an utter clown with no dress sense and the other led by Boris Johnson. We’re claiming infringement of patent.’
The Tories and Labour were contacted for comment. Labour reiterated that Mr Corbyn has improved his dress sense in recent months, and the Tories said, ‘We’re just awesome so the nutters can go fuck themselves. And that goes for the OMRLP as well.’
Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
I don't think that a Jew would have anything to fear directly from the government, or government policy, though I suppose a sanctions policy on Israel wound provide an opportunity.
What I do think is possible is that we would see an increase in antisemitism more generally and a government unwilling or unable to do anything about it.
The laws are there to deal with it. The Police need to enforce them.
Jo Swinson should ditch stop Brexit and change her slogan to The Sane Choice!
The Official Monster Raving Loony Party today launched legal action in the High Court to injunct both the Tories and Labour from standing in the 2019 general election.
The party’s leader, a cat, could not be contacted for comment as all pussies are hiding from Boris Johnson. However Howling Lord Hope, the Deputy Leader, was more forthcoming.
‘It’s a fucking disgrace is what it is,’ he said. ‘Here we are, trying to liven things up by putting forward a load of mad policies nobody would vote for, and what do these Socialist and Tory lowlifes do? They put forward manifestoes that are even madder and have one party led by an utter clown with no dress sense and the other led by Boris Johnson. We’re claiming infringement of patent.’
The Tories and Labour were contacted for comment. Labour reiterated that Mr Corbyn has improved his dress sense in recent months, and the Tories said, ‘We’re just awesome so the nutters can go fuck themselves. And that goes for the OMRLP as well.’
Regardless of whether or not their solution is “objectively dumb” doesn’t it concern you that nearly half of a minority community are considering it an appropriate response?
Sorry, maybe I missed something, where does the figure of nearly half come from?
The JC article referred to 47% “[actively] considering leaving if Labour is elected”
(Don’t recall if “actively considering” or merely “considering”)
Meh, you'd get a pretty substantial number if you polled Conservative Party members with a "would you consider emigrating if" type question.
Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.
There is no moral high ground and it is very clear that a lot of those attacking Corbyn and Labour are doing so for party political reasons not because they have any great objections to racism. As you point out, if they did they would be a lot more critical of many more things that they actually seem quite happy to accept.
However, the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic. That is shameful. Many of those who opposed Corbyn in 2015 and again 2016 did so precisely because they knew what his leadership of the party would lead to. And so it has come to pass. That not only means Labour itself is now a cesspit being investigated by the EHRC, but also that a racist liar is going to lead the country for the next few years. The self-indulgence of Labour members will never, ever be forgiven. And rightly so.
Regarding moral high ground, what other reason, other than trying to place themselves on it, was there for Ed Miliband and Co to put Corbyn on the ballot? They didn’t want him to win, they must have known what his & his supporters politics were.
They wanted to advertise how tolerant and progressive they were, especially as they thought there’d be no price to pay.
Then they realised they’d laid a 1000/1 shot that won
Same could be said for the other sides centrists who enabled an option they simultaneously thought of as disastrous and not going to happen
I think there are similarities between the Brexit referendum and the 2015 Labour leadership election. In both cases advocates for the referendum, or for Corbyn to be nominated, made an argument in favour of having a debate/say and not on the outcome that they wanted leaving the EU/electing Corbyn.
Those were fake arguments. You shouldn't give in to arguments like that to enable things that you don't want. Don't nominate someone you won't vote for and don't hold a referendum that proposes a change you oppose.
That’s what I was trying to say!!
I’d add ‘don’t try and overturn the result when the thing you nominated insincerely turns out to be the most popular option’
Labour MPs have experience of trying and failing to overturn the result. It didn't go well for them. You might think that would teach them a lesson.
The lesson I would draw is that there's no point in having a revote if you haven't changed people's minds.
Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.
I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.
In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.
This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.
Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.
I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.
Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.
Ah Joff, its being so cheerful that keeps you going, right enough.
Personally I see a future where we continue to improve our standard of living, continue to work to undo the damage done to our environment with renewable energy, electric vehicles and more and better infrastructure, where new homes are built to higher insulation standards and with their own renewable sources, where the stain and embarrassment of Corbyn is finally expunged by a once great party, where we find ourselves with a surprisingly good and close relationship with the EU and wonder what all the fuss was about, where the world continues its long term trends towards peace, less violence and increased tolerance. Surely those who will enjoy the bulk of this century rather than a part of it will live in the best of times that man and women kind has ever known.
And to add to my general cheerfulness I see health care on the edge of truly dramatic improvements based on an understanding of our genes and DNA, the DNA of cancer and many other illnesses that have caused so much misery and death.
I see a society, contrary to the doom mongers, which actually takes the control of power seriously as the Supreme Court did with the government all too recently, where we are almost too painfully aware of the undesirability of causing hurt to others but for all our moaning about it recognise this is important, where technology is helping to create the most informed generation in history by a massive margin, where the truth will ultimately out and lies will ultimately be exposed in a way that would never have happened before, there is really a lot to be cheerful about.
Our bemoaning our failures, the failures of our leaders and even the failures of our politics is how we drive ourselves to do better. We are not heading downwards but upwards. The path is crooked (like some of our politicians) but it is upward.
I expect very significant progress the the coming years in both oncology and Neurodegeneration
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
I don't think that a Jew would have anything to fear directly from the government, or government policy, though I suppose a sanctions policy on Israel wound provide an opportunity.
What I do think is possible is that we would see an increase in antisemitism more generally and a government unwilling or unable to do anything about it.
The laws are there to deal with it. The Police need to enforce them.
The police are ultimately accountable to ministers. The government would lead any effort to change the law if required. Leadership, or the lack of it, matters.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
So Jewish people are terrified of Labour coming into power but come out in greater numbers for Labour than Muslims who are really not bothered about the Tories staying in power... good argument.
There are Jewish supporters of Corbyn, if Sajid having Muslim heritage means Johnson is okay then so is Corbyn, going by the last election Jewish supporters of Corbyn are more representative of their community than Muslim supporters of the Tories and that was under May not Johnson, who is certainly worse from a Muslim perspective.
FFS. Look in the mirror.
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
You disgust me.
To be precise a section of a section of our community are scared.
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
You don't get furious about the government suspending democracy.
You chortle when race-baiting is used to win a referendum so that you can profit from the chaos.
You're very selective in the causes of your fury. Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Beyond the immorality, the institutional anti-Semitism that Jeremy Corbyn and the far left have brought to the Labour party means that a man incapable of telling the truth will be running the UK for the next few years. Johnson knows that he can lie, lie and lie again because his opponent is unelectable. It is an absolute disaster for the country. https://twitter.com/ManufacturingNI/status/1192564837345353728
BJ's trips to North Britain seem to consist of photo ops with selected manufacturers, some air kissing with satraps & activists and staying the fuck away from ordinary punters. Remind you of anyone? At least Tessy knocked on a couple of doors in Deeside and didn't get pished.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Indeed there is a difference between "will not vote for" and "afraid of".
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
Now you know how w/c, BME, LGBTQ+ and people with disabilities feel whenever there is a tory government.
The word 'disgust' doesn't even begin the capture the way the rest of us feel about tories.
Half a population considering emigration is not just a concern of British Jews. Plenty of others are considering it too.
Just the other day one of my Consultant colleagues was ranting in the staff coffee room about "getting Brexit done" in front of a silent and cowed Spanish nurse. That is what our nation has become.
Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
I don't think that a Jew would have anything to fear directly from the government, or government policy, though I suppose a sanctions policy on Israel wound provide an opportunity.
What I do think is possible is that we would see an increase in antisemitism more generally and a government unwilling or unable to do anything about it.
The laws are there to deal with it. The Police need to enforce them.
The police are ultimately accountable to ministers. The government would lead any effort to change the law if required. Leadership, or the lack of it, matters.
They are also accountable to local PCC's these days. Much of the leadership and prioritisation is local.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
You don't get furious about the government suspending democracy.
You chortle when race-baiting is used to win a referendum so that you can profit from the chaos.
You're very selective in the causes of your fury. Motes and beams, motes and beams.
I was furious about the idea of the government suspending democracy. That's why I opposed the backstop.
The government never suspended democracy though. The backstop was defeated and we now have a general election.
According to this morning’s FT, Javid is effectively ruling out those (unfunded) tax cuts Boris promised, “to the anger of Number 10 advisers who wanted a platform of higher spending and lower taxes.”
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Shalom, Charles! It is an issue, a concern; it is not athe arrival of the four horsemen.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Sanctimonious outrage is at DEFCON Charles, I repeat, DEFCON Charles.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Indeed there is a difference between "will not vote for" and "afraid of".
Do you think the Windrush generation were right to be afraid of Tory governments?
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
So Jewish people are terrified of Labour coming into power but come out in greater numbers for Labour than Muslims who are really not bothered about the Tories staying in power... good argument.
There are Jewish supporters of Corbyn, if Sajid having Muslim heritage means Johnson is okay then so is Corbyn, going by the last election Jewish supporters of Corbyn are more representative of their community than Muslim supporters of the Tories and that was under May not Johnson, who is certainly worse from a Muslim perspective.
FFS. Look in the mirror.
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
You disgust me.
To be precise a section of a section of our community are scared.
So that’s ok then? Arse.
Who said it was. I didn't. And drop the insults too.
Tory/Lib Dem policies of austerity, Universal Credit, bedroom tax, benefits cuts etc etc have caused not only untold misery but they have cost lives. Actually cost lives. We have alot to fear from a Tory government. Genuinely fear that is.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
You don't get furious about the government suspending democracy.
You chortle when race-baiting is used to win a referendum so that you can profit from the chaos.
You're very selective in the causes of your fury. Motes and beams, motes and beams.
I was furious about the idea of the government suspending democracy. That's why I opposed the backstop.
The government never suspended democracy though. The backstop was defeated and we now have a general election.
The government literally suspended democracy when it prorogued to avoid scrutiny by the country's elected representatives. But you loved that because the trashing of our civic structures was in aid of your mad obsession.
Regardless of whether or not their solution is “objectively dumb” doesn’t it concern you that nearly half of a minority community are considering it an appropriate response?
Sorry, maybe I missed something, where does the figure of nearly half come from?
The JC article referred to 47% “[actively] considering leaving if Labour is elected”
(Don’t recall if “actively considering” or merely “considering”)
Meh, you'd get a pretty substantial number if you polled Conservative Party members with a "would you consider emigrating if" type question.
Really?
I think not somehow
It sickens me how some posters on here try to downplay whats happening within one of the only 2 parties realistically able to form / lead a government.
According to this morning’s FT, Javid is effectively ruling out those (unfunded) tax cuts Boris promised, “to the anger of Number 10 advisers who wanted a platform of higher spending and lower taxes.”
No one in this election is advocating financial prudence. We have to choose between different versions of Brewsters millions.
"The problem with the GE2017 baseline approach is that this wants to take you back two and a half years before the antisemitism issue emerged. "
Well, the summary is that Labour and Labour supporters want everyone to work off of Labour results achieved when Corbynmania was at its height and Lib Dem and other support was at their lowest in a generation and more.
Only natural, I suppose, but not really indicative of the best way to defeat the Tories in specific constituencies today, with the current outcomes of what has happened since Corbynmania died and the antisemitism crisis (and other events) blasted across everyone's consciousness.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
Charles is a direct descendant of the Prophet Allah, via his Great Aunt Majorie of Little Pricking, Salops.
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
Now you know how w/c, BME, LGBTQ+ and people with disabilities feel whenever there is a tory government.
The word 'disgust' doesn't even begin the capture the way the rest of us feel about tories.
Who is this "rest of us"
It is those of us who are disgusted by racial prejudice, and other similar manifestations. In my case, it has helped turn me away from Labour. I know Tories who are turning away from their Party for similar reasons.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
You don't get furious about the government suspending democracy.
You chortle when race-baiting is used to win a referendum so that you can profit from the chaos.
You're very selective in the causes of your fury. Motes and beams, motes and beams.
I was furious about the idea of the government suspending democracy. That's why I opposed the backstop.
The government never suspended democracy though. The backstop was defeated and we now have a general election.
The government literally suspended democracy when it prorogued to avoid scrutiny by the country's elected representatives. But you loved that because the trashing of our civic structures was in aid of your mad obsession.
Prorogation is always a "suspension of democracy". Do you think we should never use prorogation?
I'm not sure what was avoiding scrutiny, given there was nothing to scrutinise until the EU met and came up with Boris's Deal. As was said at the time of the 4-days-longer-than-usual prorogation. But if you want to descend into your own hystrical world where it equates with burning the Reichstag, .....
According to this morning’s FT, Javid is effectively ruling out those (unfunded) tax cuts Boris promised, “to the anger of Number 10 advisers who wanted a platform of higher spending and lower taxes.”
No one in this election is advocating financial prudence. We have to choose between different versions of Brewsters millions.
I'm quite attracted by the Greens' approach. If the country is going to go bust, it might as well go bust in pursuit of something actually worth going bust for.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
You don't get furious about the government suspending democracy.
You chortle when race-baiting is used to win a referendum so that you can profit from the chaos.
You're very selective in the causes of your fury. Motes and beams, motes and beams.
I was furious about the idea of the government suspending democracy. That's why I opposed the backstop.
The government never suspended democracy though. The backstop was defeated and we now have a general election.
The government literally suspended democracy when it prorogued to avoid scrutiny by the country's elected representatives. But you loved that because the trashing of our civic structures was in aid of your mad obsession.
Prorogation is always a "suspension of democracy". Do you think we should never use prorogation?
I'm not sure what was avoiding scrutiny, given there was nothing to scrutinise until the EU met and came up with Boris's Deal. As was said at the time of the 4-days-longer-than-usual prorogation. But if you want to descend into your own hystrical world where it equates with burning the Reichstag, .....
Two demonstrable falsehoods in two paragraphs. Well done!
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
So Jewish people are terrified of Labour coming into power but come out in greater numbers for Labour than Muslims who are really not bothered about the Tories staying in power... good argument.
There are Jewish supporters of Corbyn, if Sajid having Muslim heritage means Johnson is okay then so is Corbyn, going by the last election Jewish supporters of Corbyn are more representative of their community than Muslim supporters of the Tories and that was under May not Johnson, who is certainly worse from a Muslim perspective.
FFS. Look in the mirror.
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
You disgust me.
To be precise a section of a section of our community are scared.
I see. And do you agree that one quarter is not a fraction, because it is half of a half and therefore "to be precise" a fraction of a fraction?
Trying to sound like an anti-semite but only managing to sound like a twit is an impressive fail.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Indeed there is a difference between "will not vote for" and "afraid of".
Do you think the Windrush generation were right to be afraid of Tory governments?
They should have been afraid of the Blair/Brown Govt. too, as they did sod all in 13 years to sort out the problem either. And the LibDems didn't push it when in Coalition.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Oh, temper temper old chap. Synthetic outrage is not very becoming.
You also need to lose the insults mate, I have not once insulted you and you are seeking to speak on behalf of the Islamic community. You shouldn't.
Alistair very succinctly nails your double standards further upthread. It's delicious.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
You don't get furious about the government suspending democracy.
You chortle when race-baiting is used to win a referendum so that you can profit from the chaos.
You're very selective in the causes of your fury. Motes and beams, motes and beams.
I believe proroguing Parliament is not the same as “suspending democracy”.
I dislike “race-baiting” and have posted several times I could never vote for a party led by Farage.
And I’m not looking to profit from Brexit. I’ve probably lost a lot of money
And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.
I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.
I dont think it's a question of over egging things, I just dont think anything could be said to make more voters care about it if they did not already.
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Peter- what a superb post.
Corbyn's inability to deal with the conflation of anti-Zionism in the Labour Party and the the rather brutal anti-Semitism of the far right- his inability to manage this and allow the myth to develop that he is an anti-Semite- it really just shows that Corbyn is crap at politics, and a pretty piss poor leader which for many are good enough reasons not to vote for him
Beyond the immorality, the institutional anti-Semitism that Jeremy Corbyn and the far left have brought to the Labour party means that a man incapable of telling the truth will be running the UK for the next few years. Johnson knows that he can lie, lie and lie again because his opponent is unelectable. It is an absolute disaster for the country. https://twitter.com/ManufacturingNI/status/1192564837345353728
BJ's trips to North Britain seem to consist of photo ops with selected manufacturers, some air kissing with satraps & activists and staying the fuck away from ordinary punters. Remind you of anyone? At least Tessy knocked on a couple of doors in Deeside and didn't get pished.
How many ordinary punters does Corbyn meet excluding bussed in Labour activists and selected factory school and hospital visits? Most party leaders election tours are the same
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
Now you know how w/c, BME, LGBTQ+ and people with disabilities feel whenever there is a tory government.
The word 'disgust' doesn't even begin the capture the way the rest of us feel about tories.
What a load of crap.
More Tory BME and LGBT and disabled Tory MPs than ever before, more BME and disabled people in work than in 2010, gay marriage brought in under Cameron
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
Now you know how w/c, BME, LGBTQ+ and people with disabilities feel whenever there is a tory government.
The word 'disgust' doesn't even begin the capture the way the rest of us feel about tories.
What a load of crap.
More Tory BME and LGBT and disabled Tory MPs than ever before, more BME and disabled people in work than in 2010, gay marriage brought in under Cameron
Only on the back of Labour and lib dem votes. Tories were split virtually 50.50 on it. Nasty little bigots that they are.
Right wing papers being hysterical about Corbyn was present previously, they will adjust their attack lines slightly but there is only so far you can go before people just switch off.
To give a non Corbyn example even if you believe some of the worst things that people believe about Johnson you probably aren't going to win much more neutral people around to your cause by talking about him as the source of all evil. If you are exposed to partisans of both sides it just becomes people shouting that the other person is evil...
There was a comment from someone in Labour (maybe an MP anonymously) not long after Corbyn got elected leader (I think I remember Stephen Bush talking about it sometime afterwards) about how rather than going over the top with their attacks on Corbyn they needed much more subtle softer attacks to bring him down. So rather than Corbyn being some figure of hatred just deride him as not very effective or not doing the job well.
TBH Corbyn's support is partially based on policy so it wouldn't have won everyone round and I think he could have survived attempts to remove him still but I do think it would have been a far more effective method of attack. Going too hard, even if you think it is fully justified as I do with Johnson just puts less partisan people off.
I suppose long term Labour MPs that are now actively campaigning against Labour over this are just right wing too. And the vast majority of Jews, a group that has usually been Labour voting, believe that Corbyn is anti-Semitic for the same reasons.
Are the vast majority of Jews actively campaigning against Labour? I don't know a single one who is. But I do know Jews who are a lot more pro-Labour than I am.
And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.
I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.
I dont think it's a question of over egging things, I just dont think anything could be said to make more voters care about it if they did not already.
Labour have evidently made the calculation that there is no need to address the institutional anti-semitism in their party as it is not a vote loser. And who can blame them. Supporters turn somersaults trying to deny what is transparently obvious to anyone with a brain but at the end of the day for ballot box purposes it's not worth the Party pretending too much.
That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.
There I disagree. Boris Johnson won for two reasons: (1) he promised to leave the EU and (2) he seemed the likeliest candidate to win an election.
Following next year, (1) loses much of its potency. Therefore (2), the dominating Tory trait in every leadership election of the last 80 years save 2001, suddenly becomes vital. Remember how obsessed Hyufd was with polling showing the Tories would win x million seats under Johnson.
If the membership are convinced that a centrist candidate will win them an election, they will vote for that candidate. It really is that simple. What’s worrying about Labour is they voted twice for Corbyn even though they knew it would cost them any chance of forming a government.
Do not mistake phases for ideology.
To be fair to Southam the Tories also voted for IDS over Ken Clarke, electability only tends to get prioritised over ideology when party members want to win after a long period in opposition e.g. Cameron or Blair or to keep out the opposition e.g. Boris to beat Corbyn as now
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Peter- what a superb post.
Corbyn's inability to deal with the conflation of anti-Zionism in the Labour Party and the the rather brutal anti-Semitism of the far right- his inability to manage this and allow the myth to develop that he is an anti-Semite- it really just shows that Corbyn is crap at politics, and a pretty piss poor leader which for many are good enough reasons not to vote for him
Beyond the immorality, the institutional anti-Semitism that Jeremy Corbyn and the far left have brought to the Labour party means that a man incapable of telling the truth will be running the UK for the next few years. Johnson knows that he can lie, lie and lie again because his opponent is unelectable. It is an absolute disaster for the country. https://twitter.com/ManufacturingNI/status/1192564837345353728
Unedifying options before us, though personally I think we are about to get a Corbyn minority for about 6-8 months and then another GE, and no idea who wins that one.
And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.
I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.
Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to
It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...
I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
Then I hope you get mightily annoyed.
I hope you get mightily annoyed by Labour losing a chunk of its seats in this election, of Corbyn standing down, humilated, with 99.9% of his anti-semites washed away from power by the Domestos of democracy.
Which has yet to do anything for brown stain Boris.
To play devil's advocate, the one possible way the Tories score over Labour is it's very easy to imagine Johnson being removed very fast as soon as he becomes a liability, which is about 18 months-2years away tops. There is then the realistic prospect of him being replaced by somebody much better. The ruthlessness of Tory MPs is legendary and will be useful.
With Labour, the real problem is not that they made such a dreadful mistake with Corbyn, but that they (a) are unable to correct it by removing him and (b) even if he resigns, it's entirely possible the membership will replace him with somebody even more loathsome and incompetent, for example, Bailey, Cat Smith, Pidcock, Burgon or Lavery.
So in a binary choice the Tories offer a potential way back but Labour don't. That's different from saying the Tories will improve, but I'm struggling at this moment to see how Labour recover.
Yes, the Tories saw they were under threat from the Brexit Party and dumped May for Boris asap.
Labour are under threat from the LDs but they stick with Corbyn regardless
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Oh, temper temper old chap. Synthetic outrage is not very becoming.
You also need to lose the insults mate, I have not once insulted you and you are seeking to speak on behalf of the Islamic community. You shouldn't.
Alistair very succinctly nails your double standards further upthread. It's delicious.
I can do synthetic outrage. Thus isn’t it. This is fury.
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Jo Swinson should ditch stop Brexit and change her slogan to The Sane Choice!
Rings a bit 'deplorables' in suggesting anyone backing the other options is mad, so counter productive.
Tens of millions will back the parties of Corbyn and Boris, many because of them not in spite of them. Telling them they are idiots, enablers of racism or idiot enablers of racism wont work even if someone thinks it is true. The tribal vote is just that strong.
That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.
Bollocks. For all the attempts to paint him otherwise, Boris is a One Nation Conservative, who governed London as such whilst Mayor. The new intake will be lagely One Nation Conservatives. Neither ERG-compliant nor Europhile headbangers. Mirroring the bulk of the current Parliamentary party and the membership.
Are you sure about that, Mr Mark? I thought all the decent, rational Conservatives had given up on this pack of incompetents, tax-dodgers, spivs and charlatans.
Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.
And you choose to joke about it.
There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.
What don’t you get?
The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.
Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)
The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.
How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
What?
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
Oh, temper temper old chap. Synthetic outrage is not very becoming.
You also need to lose the insults mate, I have not once insulted you and you are seeking to speak on behalf of the Islamic community. You shouldn't.
Alistair very succinctly nails your double standards further upthread. It's delicious.
I can do synthetic outrage. Thus isn’t it. This is fury.
(I replied to Alastair’s inaccurate allegations)
Your contortions are the mirror image of @TheJezziah's. And about as convincing.
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Peter- what a superb post.
Corbyn's inability to deal with the conflation of anti-Zionism in the Labour Party and the the rather brutal anti-Semitism of the far right- his inability to manage this and allow the myth to develop that he is an anti-Semite- it really just shows that Corbyn is crap at politics, and a pretty piss poor leader which for many are good enough reasons not to vote for him
Thanks Tyson. You are most kind.
My Other Half and I discuss this regularly. Since she has a professional interest in the matter, she has researched it diligently and reached her own conclusions, which are not very different from mine. I'm maybe closer to you and think Corbyn is not personally anti-Semitic, but..... She thinks he is. Both views are tenable on the publicly available evidence.
What is indisputable is that Corbyn and the Labour Party have handled the matter very badly indeed.
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
Now you know how w/c, BME, LGBTQ+ and people with disabilities feel whenever there is a tory government.
The word 'disgust' doesn't even begin the capture the way the rest of us feel about tories.
What a load of crap.
More Tory BME and LGBT and disabled Tory MPs than ever before, more BME and disabled people in work than in 2010, gay marriage brought in under Cameron
Only on the back of Labour and lib dem votes. Tories were split virtually 50.50 on it. Nasty little bigots that they are.
I suppose Catholics and evangelical Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Orthodox Jews are all nasty little bigots too as they believe marriage should only be between one man and one woman for life, like those 50% of Tory MPs? Opposing gay marriage does not make you a bigot as such
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
Now you know how w/c, BME, LGBTQ+ and people with disabilities feel whenever there is a tory government.
The word 'disgust' doesn't even begin the capture the way the rest of us feel about tories.
What a load of crap.
More Tory BME and LGBT and disabled Tory MPs than ever before, more BME and disabled people in work than in 2010, gay marriage brought in under Cameron
Only on the back of Labour and lib dem votes. Tories were split virtually 50.50 on it. Nasty little bigots that they are.
I suppose Catholics and evangelical Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Orthodox Jews are all nasty little bigots too as they believe marriage should only be between one man and one woman for life, like those 50% of Tory MPs? Opposing gay marriage does not make you a bigot as such
Are the vast majority of Jews actively campaigning against Labour? I don't know a single one who is. But I do know Jews who are a lot more pro-Labour than I am.
I'm Jewish (though not practising) and campaigning for Labour as usual - I think the JC article is wrong and have written to them as a former NEC member of Labour Friends of Israel to say so - I wonder if they'll print it.
I've never been keen on the whole "community leaders" thing which pops up with Muslim and Hindu groups too. People make up their own minds and we don't need some self-appointed people speaking for us, not least because it actually creates prejudice if we seem to be a solid bloc - "Muslims, they all think like that" etc.
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Peter- what a superb post.
Corbyn's inability to deal with the conflation of anti-Zionism in the Labour Party and the the rather brutal anti-Semitism of the far right- his inability to manage this and allow the myth to develop that he is an anti-Semite- it really just shows that Corbyn is crap at politics, and a pretty piss poor leader which for many are good enough reasons not to vote for him
Thanks Tyson. You are most kind.
My Other Half and I discuss this regularly. Since she has a professional interest in the matter, she has researched it diligently and reached her own conclusions, which are not very different from mine. I'm maybe closer to you and think Corbyn is not personally anti-Semitic, but..... She thinks he is. Both views are tenable on the publicly available evidence.
What is indisputable is that Corbyn and the Labour Party have handled the matter very badly indeed.
LOL I'll go with "has a professional interest in the matter, she has researched it diligently" over your, and @tyson's, and @TheJezziah's "no really he's not".
Are the vast majority of Jews actively campaigning against Labour? I don't know a single one who is. But I do know Jews who are a lot more pro-Labour than I am.
I'm Jewish (though not practising) and campaigning for Labour as usual - I think the JC article is wrong and have written to them as a former NEC member of Labour Friends of Israel to say so - I wonder if they'll print it.
I've never been keen on the whole "community leaders" thing which pops up with Muslim and Hindu groups too. People make up their own minds and we don't need some self-appointed people speaking for us, not least because it actually creates prejudice if we seem to be a solid bloc - "Muslims, they all think like that" etc.
Didn’t you only discover your Jewish heritage a year or so ago? Apologies if I am mistaken.
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Peter- what a superb post.
Corbyn's inability to deal with the conflation of anti-Zionism in the Labour Party and the the rather brutal anti-Semitism of the far right- his inability to manage this and allow the myth to develop that he is an anti-Semite- it really just shows that Corbyn is crap at politics, and a pretty piss poor leader which for many are good enough reasons not to vote for him
What about the whole Hamas thingy?
The whole Hamas thingy is the problem. Corbyn has nothing against Jews, so by that definition is not antisemitic, but is opposed to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (and has apparently not noticed Israel is the only place in the Middle East where it is safe to be a gay left-wing trade union activist demonstrating against the government, or someone like Jeremy Corbyn, come to that).
A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.
Now you know how w/c, BME, LGBTQ+ and people with disabilities feel whenever there is a tory government.
The word 'disgust' doesn't even begin the capture the way the rest of us feel about tories.
No matter who is leading it or what their actions have been? Thats as dumb as someone feeling intense visceral hatred of labour regardless of who the leader is or what their actions have been.
Not all Tory governments and oppositions are the same, nor are all labour governments and oppositions the same, they dont do the same things or act the same way. Who leads them and what they do matters, it's why boris and Corbyn and their base supporters matter .
And people are so proud, its so central to their identity, to say how they always viscerally hate party x, regardless of the fact parties act very differently over time.
Its pathetic and childish to act like parties are always offering the same negatives or positives, yet the pride people have in doing so, to display their morality, makes me more depressed than davidl is optimistic this morning. Its declaring pride in ignorantly judging a changing situation as if its static.
I know what your reaction will be to this, some attention grabbing swear I assume, but I just don't understand the logic in pretending our parties have such consistent ideology that 'any' government of party x, labour or tory, is not only unfavourable but to be feared or would be disgusting. It goes against the other critique we usually have if them, that that they dont stick to principles.
The reality is either can be fine and either can be terrible . Its reasonable to think one is more likely to be terrible, but any? Grow up.
For the avoidance of doubt and the enlightenment of those not familiar with the JC, I should point out that its readership is heavily pro-Conservative and pro-Leave. This does not mean it is a bad paper. It is in my opinion a very good one, and certainly much better than rags such as the Mail and the Telegraph. It does however have its agenda and it has found a very rich seam to mine in Labour's anti-semitism problems.
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Peter- what a superb post.
Corbyn's inability to deal with the conflation of anti-Zionism in the Labour Party and the the rather brutal anti-Semitism of the far right- his inability to manage this and allow the myth to develop that he is an anti-Semite- it really just shows that Corbyn is crap at politics, and a pretty piss poor leader which for many are good enough reasons not to vote for him
Thanks Tyson. You are most kind.
My Other Half and I discuss this regularly. Since she has a professional interest in the matter, she has researched it diligently and reached her own conclusions, which are not very different from mine. I'm maybe closer to you and think Corbyn is not personally anti-Semitic, but..... She thinks he is. Both views are tenable on the publicly available evidence.
What is indisputable is that Corbyn and the Labour Party have handled the matter very badly indeed.
Your question about why Woodcock and others should now actually be campaigning for the Conservatives - especially these Conservatives - is a very interesting one.
Comments
Apologies if I got the terminology wrong (I don’t bet)
The party’s leader, a cat, could not be contacted for comment as all pussies are hiding from Boris Johnson. However Howling Lord Hope, the Deputy Leader, was more forthcoming.
‘It’s a fucking disgrace is what it is,’ he said. ‘Here we are, trying to liven things up by putting forward a load of mad policies nobody would vote for, and what do these Socialist and Tory lowlifes do? They put forward manifestoes that are even madder and have one party led by an utter clown with no dress sense and the other led by Boris Johnson. We’re claiming infringement of patent.’
The Tories and Labour were contacted for comment. Labour reiterated that Mr Corbyn has improved his dress sense in recent months, and the Tories said, ‘We’re just awesome so the nutters can go fuck themselves. And that goes for the OMRLP as well.’
Have a good morning.
The lesson I would draw is that there's no point in having a revote if you haven't changed people's minds.
Ah, is that my coat....?
As an example look at igmbio.com
It is entirely justified in criticising the Party along these lines. Top class MPs like Luciana Berger would not be leaving the Party were there no substance in the criticism. Nevertheless one should not overegg it. The JC does not speak for all Jews any more than the Mail, say, speaks for all conservatives. Like many Jews, I have no difficulty noting and sharing its concerns without becoming hysterical about it.
This is not Germany in 1933. There is no Exodus. The Labour Party has a problem, but there are some signs - too little too late perhaps but signs nevertheless - that it is doing something about it. For most Jews, most of the time, life carries on as normal.
It appalls and astonishes me that Labour should have become tainted with anti-semitism in the way it has. It is the very antithesis of its fundamental values and a contradiction of its history. This is indeed an indictment of the Leadership and it is perfectly understandable why some supporters should turn away because of their disdain for racism of any kind.
Why their journey should lead them to vote Conservative is rather more puzzling, but that's another question, and Whataboutery is never a convincing stance, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
The word 'disgust' doesn't even begin the capture the way the rest of us feel about tories.
I’m not appointing myself spokesman for anyone. I’ve not seen data suggesting Muslims are afraid of a Tory government
But fuck you. Our Jewish fellow citizens are being attacked and you want to make cute debating points.
I recognise your name so I guess you’ve been around for awhile. You’ll know that I don’t get riled up by much. This makes me furious.
You chortle when race-baiting is used to win a referendum so that you can profit from the chaos.
You're very selective in the causes of your fury. Motes and beams, motes and beams.
Just the other day one of my Consultant colleagues was ranting in the staff coffee room about "getting Brexit done" in front of a silent and cowed Spanish nurse. That is what our nation has become.
The government never suspended democracy though. The backstop was defeated and we now have a general election.
Tory/Lib Dem policies of austerity, Universal Credit, bedroom tax, benefits cuts etc etc have caused not only untold misery but they have cost lives. Actually cost lives. We have alot to fear from a Tory government. Genuinely fear that is.
I think not somehow
It sickens me how some posters on here try to downplay whats happening within one of the only 2 parties realistically able to form / lead a government.
Well, the summary is that Labour and Labour supporters want everyone to work off of Labour results achieved when Corbynmania was at its height and Lib Dem and other support was at their lowest in a generation and more.
Only natural, I suppose, but not really indicative of the best way to defeat the Tories in specific constituencies today, with the current outcomes of what has happened since Corbynmania died and the antisemitism crisis (and other events) blasted across everyone's consciousness.
There's quite a few of Us.
I'm not sure what was avoiding scrutiny, given there was nothing to scrutinise until the EU met and came up with Boris's Deal. As was said at the time of the 4-days-longer-than-usual prorogation. But if you want to descend into your own hystrical world where it equates with burning the Reichstag, .....
Trying to sound like an anti-semite but only managing to sound like a twit is an impressive fail.
Windrush stains all political parties.
You also need to lose the insults mate, I have not once insulted you and you are seeking to speak on behalf of the Islamic community. You shouldn't.
Alistair very succinctly nails your double standards further upthread. It's delicious.
Hold my beer Conrad
I dislike “race-baiting” and have posted several times I could never vote for a party led by Farage.
And I’m not looking to profit from Brexit. I’ve probably lost a lot of money
So every claim in your post is inaccurate
Corbyn's inability to deal with the conflation of anti-Zionism in the Labour Party and the the rather brutal anti-Semitism of the far right- his inability to manage this and allow the myth to develop that he is an anti-Semite- it really just shows that Corbyn is crap at politics, and a pretty piss poor leader which for many are good enough reasons not to vote for him
More Tory BME and LGBT and disabled Tory MPs than ever before, more BME and disabled people in work than in 2010, gay marriage brought in under Cameron
Labour are under threat from the LDs but they stick with Corbyn regardless
(I replied to Alastair’s inaccurate allegations)
Tens of millions will back the parties of Corbyn and Boris, many because of them not in spite of them. Telling them they are idiots, enablers of racism or idiot enablers of racism wont work even if someone thinks it is true. The tribal vote is just that strong.
What a position we’re in.
My Other Half and I discuss this regularly. Since she has a professional interest in the matter, she has researched it diligently and reached her own conclusions, which are not very different from mine. I'm maybe closer to you and think Corbyn is not personally anti-Semitic, but..... She thinks he is. Both views are tenable on the publicly available evidence.
What is indisputable is that Corbyn and the Labour Party have handled the matter very badly indeed.
I've never been keen on the whole "community leaders" thing which pops up with Muslim and Hindu groups too. People make up their own minds and we don't need some self-appointed people speaking for us, not least because it actually creates prejudice if we seem to be a solid bloc - "Muslims, they all think like that" etc.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50343794
Another fine day in British democracy, judging by the stream of tweets on candidates being dumped for various forms of abuse and nastiness.
Not all Tory governments and oppositions are the same, nor are all labour governments and oppositions the same, they dont do the same things or act the same way. Who leads them and what they do matters, it's why boris and Corbyn and their base supporters matter .
And people are so proud, its so central to their identity, to say how they always viscerally hate party x, regardless of the fact parties act very differently over time.
Its pathetic and childish to act like parties are always offering the same negatives or positives, yet the pride people have in doing so, to display their morality, makes me more depressed than davidl is optimistic this morning. Its declaring pride in ignorantly judging a changing situation as if its static.
I know what your reaction will be to this, some attention grabbing swear I assume, but I just don't understand the logic in pretending our parties have such consistent ideology that 'any' government of party x, labour or tory, is not only unfavourable but to be feared or would be disgusting. It goes against the other critique we usually have if them, that that they dont stick to principles.
The reality is either can be fine and either can be terrible . Its reasonable to think one is more likely to be terrible, but any? Grow up.