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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB’s GE17 performance is misleading as a tactical voting guid

SystemSystem Posts: 12,170
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB’s GE17 performance is misleading as a tactical voting guide because since then there’s been the antisemitism crisis

So far the LAB GE19 campaign has been dominated by furious attacks like the one above from the Jewish Chronicle and nearly half a dozen candidates having to stand aside because they are on record as stated things that can be seen as anti semitic.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.
  • FPT:

    A former Labour MP has confirmed he will run as an independent in the general election after the party withdrew its support for him after he backed protesters in an LGBT teaching row.

    Roger Godsiff, 73, who had been the Labour MP for Birmingham Hall Green, was told this week by the national executive committee (NEC) that he would not be endorsed as a candidate in the December poll and someone else would run in his place.

    On Thursday Godsiff announced he would run for election in his former constituency as an Independent Labour candidate.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/08/ex-labour-mp-to-run-as-independent-after-being-dropped-over-lgbt-row
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Right wing papers being hysterical about Corbyn was present previously, they will adjust their attack lines slightly but there is only so far you can go before people just switch off.

    To give a non Corbyn example even if you believe some of the worst things that people believe about Johnson you probably aren't going to win much more neutral people around to your cause by talking about him as the source of all evil. If you are exposed to partisans of both sides it just becomes people shouting that the other person is evil...

    There was a comment from someone in Labour (maybe an MP anonymously) not long after Corbyn got elected leader (I think I remember Stephen Bush talking about it sometime afterwards) about how rather than going over the top with their attacks on Corbyn they needed much more subtle softer attacks to bring him down. So rather than Corbyn being some figure of hatred just deride him as not very effective or not doing the job well.

    TBH Corbyn's support is partially based on policy so it wouldn't have won everyone round and I think he could have survived attempts to remove him still but I do think it would have been a far more effective method of attack. Going too hard, even if you think it is fully justified as I do with Johnson just puts less partisan people off.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    Right wing papers being hysterical about Corbyn was present previously, they will adjust their attack lines slightly but there is only so far you can go before people just switch off.

    To give a non Corbyn example even if you believe some of the worst things that people believe about Johnson you probably aren't going to win much more neutral people around to your cause by talking about him as the source of all evil. If you are exposed to partisans of both sides it just becomes people shouting that the other person is evil...

    There was a comment from someone in Labour (maybe an MP anonymously) not long after Corbyn got elected leader (I think I remember Stephen Bush talking about it sometime afterwards) about how rather than going over the top with their attacks on Corbyn they needed much more subtle softer attacks to bring him down. So rather than Corbyn being some figure of hatred just deride him as not very effective or not doing the job well.

    TBH Corbyn's support is partially based on policy so it wouldn't have won everyone round and I think he could have survived attempts to remove him still but I do think it would have been a far more effective method of attack. Going too hard, even if you think it is fully justified as I do with Johnson just puts less partisan people off.

    I suppose long term Labour MPs that are now actively campaigning against Labour over this are just right wing too. And the vast majority of Jews, a group that has usually been Labour voting, believe that Corbyn is anti-Semitic for the same reasons.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited November 2019
    Gabs2 said:

    Right wing papers being hysterical about Corbyn was present previously, they will adjust their attack lines slightly but there is only so far you can go before people just switch off.

    To give a non Corbyn example even if you believe some of the worst things that people believe about Johnson you probably aren't going to win much more neutral people around to your cause by talking about him as the source of all evil. If you are exposed to partisans of both sides it just becomes people shouting that the other person is evil...

    There was a comment from someone in Labour (maybe an MP anonymously) not long after Corbyn got elected leader (I think I remember Stephen Bush talking about it sometime afterwards) about how rather than going over the top with their attacks on Corbyn they needed much more subtle softer attacks to bring him down. So rather than Corbyn being some figure of hatred just deride him as not very effective or not doing the job well.

    TBH Corbyn's support is partially based on policy so it wouldn't have won everyone round and I think he could have survived attempts to remove him still but I do think it would have been a far more effective method of attack. Going too hard, even if you think it is fully justified as I do with Johnson just puts less partisan people off.

    I suppose long term Labour MPs that are now actively campaigning against Labour over this are just right wing too. And the vast majority of Jews, a group that has usually been Labour voting, believe that Corbyn is anti-Semitic for the same reasons.
    If we are talking about Ian Austin and John Woodcock then I would say yes definitely. Ed Miliband saw a bigger drop in Jewish support for Labour than Corbyn did. If it dropped down to say Muslim support for Conservatives level then that would be a statement from a community about the prejudice from that party...

    Edit: At this point the neutral turns off, which being the cynical person I am makes me suspect it was the whole point of it from a right wing perspective, shut down complaints about being racist by accusing the other side.
  • Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
  • Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
  • Non-US safety regulators are going to have a field day when Boeing seek approval for getting the 737 Max back in the air:

    Lawmakers are pursuing new safety issues with two Boeing jets — the 737 MAX and the 787 Dreamliner — and questioning how in each case managers at the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) backed Boeing’s contention that there was no cause for concern despite objections from the safety agency’s own technical experts.

    The revelations, contained in a letter from the leaders of the U.S. House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, come a week after they chaired an intense public hearing where Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg was grilled about the 737 MAX crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia that killed 346 people.

    The letter sent Thursday cites “serious, potentially catastrophic safety concerns raised by FAA technical specialists that FAA management ultimately overruled after Boeing objected.”


    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/new-questions-raised-on-safety-of-both-737-max-and-787-dreamliner/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    Non-US safety regulators are going to have a field day when Boeing seek approval for getting the 737 Max back in the air:

    Lawmakers are pursuing new safety issues with two Boeing jets — the 737 MAX and the 787 Dreamliner — and questioning how in each case managers at the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) backed Boeing’s contention that there was no cause for concern despite objections from the safety agency’s own technical experts.

    The revelations, contained in a letter from the leaders of the U.S. House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, come a week after they chaired an intense public hearing where Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg was grilled about the 737 MAX crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia that killed 346 people.

    The letter sent Thursday cites “serious, potentially catastrophic safety concerns raised by FAA technical specialists that FAA management ultimately overruled after Boeing objected.”


    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/new-questions-raised-on-safety-of-both-737-max-and-787-dreamliner/

    Probably not on the lightning issue...

    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/faa-to-loosen-fuel-tank-safety-rules-benefiting-boeings-787/
    Current policy dictates that airplane engineers must design three independent layers of protection in any conceivable scenario that could produce a spark.

    “To this day, we have not had one manufacturer that has been able to demonstrate compliance with that rule,” said Ali Bahrami, head of the FAA’s Seattle office dealing with commercial-airplane certification. “We decided it’s time to re-evaluate our approach.”

    Airbus applied for certification of its newest plane, the A380, before the regulation, so it did not have to comply....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    That’s a very powerful front page from the JC

    It’s hard sometimes to move from an intellectual appreciation of “anti-semitism” to what it means for real people, but that piece does it very well
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    No it is not ridiculous. The hate enabled by vile anti-Semitism embedded in the far left groups Corbyn mixes with is a real threat.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited November 2019

    Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
    Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    Gabs2 said:

    Right wing papers being hysterical about Corbyn was present previously, they will adjust their attack lines slightly but there is only so far you can go before people just switch off.

    To give a non Corbyn example even if you believe some of the worst things that people believe about Johnson you probably aren't going to win much more neutral people around to your cause by talking about him as the source of all evil. If you are exposed to partisans of both sides it just becomes people shouting that the other person is evil...

    There was a comment from someone in Labour (maybe an MP anonymously) not long after Corbyn got elected leader (I think I remember Stephen Bush talking about it sometime afterwards) about how rather than going over the top with their attacks on Corbyn they needed much more subtle softer attacks to bring him down. So rather than Corbyn being some figure of hatred just deride him as not very effective or not doing the job well.

    TBH Corbyn's support is partially based on policy so it wouldn't have won everyone round and I think he could have survived attempts to remove him still but I do think it would have been a far more effective method of attack. Going too hard, even if you think it is fully justified as I do with Johnson just puts less partisan people off.

    I suppose long term Labour MPs that are now actively campaigning against Labour over this are just right wing too. And the vast majority of Jews, a group that has usually been Labour voting, believe that Corbyn is anti-Semitic for the same reasons.
    If we are talking about Ian Austin and John Woodcock then I would say yes definitely. Ed Miliband saw a bigger drop in Jewish support for Labour than Corbyn did. If it dropped down to say Muslim support for Conservatives level then that would be a statement from a community about the prejudice from that party...
    Isn’t the level of Jewish support for Labour now well below even that of Muslims for the Tories ?

    The “neutral”, as you put it, would be pretty turned off by both parties. There is clearly a degree of acceptance of Islamophobia in the Tories - polling indicates half their members would not accept a Muslim PM:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/tory-members-would-not-want-muslim-prime-minister-islamophobia-survey

    Labour’s attitude towards Jews is every bit as dismal, but appears to be top down, whereas with the Tories it seems to be ground up.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Right wing papers being hysterical about Corbyn was present previously, they will adjust their attack lines slightly but there is only so far you can go before people just switch off.

    To give a non Corbyn example even if you believe some of the worst things that people believe about Johnson you probably aren't going to win much more neutral people around to your cause by talking about him as the source of all evil. If you are exposed to partisans of both sides it just becomes people shouting that the other person is evil...

    There was a comment from someone in Labour (maybe an MP anonymously) not long after Corbyn got elected leader (I think I remember Stephen Bush talking about it sometime afterwards) about how rather than going over the top with their attacks on Corbyn they needed much more subtle softer attacks to bring him down. So rather than Corbyn being some figure of hatred just deride him as not very effective or not doing the job well.

    TBH Corbyn's support is partially based on policy so it wouldn't have won everyone round and I think he could have survived attempts to remove him still but I do think it would have been a far more effective method of attack. Going too hard, even if you think it is fully justified as I do with Johnson just puts less partisan people off.

    Suggest you read the Twitter feed I linked

    This is not just “right wing newspapers” but a very real fear among part of our community

    It is deeply depressing that a minority group feels like this about a party that has a very real chance of being the next government
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Nigelb said:

    Gabs2 said:

    .

    I suppose long term Labour MPs that are now actively campaigning against Labour over this are just right wing too. And the vast majority of Jews, a group that has usually been Labour voting, believe that Corbyn is anti-Semitic for the same reasons.
    If we are talking about Ian Austin and John Woodcock then I would say yes definitely. Ed Miliband saw a bigger drop in Jewish support for Labour than Corbyn did. If it dropped down to say Muslim support for Conservatives level then that would be a statement from a community about the prejudice from that party...
    Isn’t the level of Jewish support for Labour now well below even that of Muslims for the Tories ?

    The “neutral”, as you put it, would be pretty turned off by both parties. There is clearly a degree of acceptance of Islamophobia in the Tories - polling indicates half their members would not accept a Muslim PM:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/tory-members-would-not-want-muslim-prime-minister-islamophobia-survey

    Labour’s attitude towards Jews is every bit as dismal, but appears to be top down, whereas with the Tories it seems to be ground up.
    I don't think so but it is an incredibly low bar to reach in fairness.

    There really isn't a comparison between Corbyn and Johnson but it suits partisans to pretend there is, Johnson has repeatedly said racist stuff for electoral effect in national newspapers and elsewhere, the accusations against Corbyn mainly consist of him meeting x or y (sometimes people who are Jewish themselves) talking about another piece of graffiti getting washed off in response to the monopoly board mural and criticising two specific people and pretending it was about all Jewish people. To pretend there is some kind of equality between the two is a joke.

    TBH Labours attitude is the same ground up as it is top down, not many on the left think opposing Palestinian oppression equals anti semitism in the same way protesting apartheid wasn't anti White.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Non-US safety regulators are going to have a field day when Boeing seek approval for getting the 737 Max back in the air:

    Lawmakers are pursuing new safety issues with two Boeing jets — the 737 MAX and the 787 Dreamliner — and questioning how in each case managers at the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) backed Boeing’s contention that there was no cause for concern despite objections from the safety agency’s own technical experts.

    The revelations, contained in a letter from the leaders of the U.S. House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, come a week after they chaired an intense public hearing where Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg was grilled about the 737 MAX crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia that killed 346 people.

    The letter sent Thursday cites “serious, potentially catastrophic safety concerns raised by FAA technical specialists that FAA management ultimately overruled after Boeing objected.”


    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/new-questions-raised-on-safety-of-both-737-max-and-787-dreamliner/

    Probably not on the lightning issue...

    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/faa-to-loosen-fuel-tank-safety-rules-benefiting-boeings-787/
    Current policy dictates that airplane engineers must design three independent layers of protection in any conceivable scenario that could produce a spark.

    “To this day, we have not had one manufacturer that has been able to demonstrate compliance with that rule,” said Ali Bahrami, head of the FAA’s Seattle office dealing with commercial-airplane certification. “We decided it’s time to re-evaluate our approach.”

    Airbus applied for certification of its newest plane, the A380, before the regulation, so it did not have to comply....
    I’m much more familiar with the FDA than the the FAA, but any attempt to go above the head of a TA segment is shot down faster than you can say Wyatt Earp

    The FTC on the other hand...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
    Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
    Regardless of whether or not their solution is “objectively dumb” doesn’t it concern you that nearly half of a minority community are considering it an appropriate response?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Charles said:

    Right wing papers being hysterical about Corbyn was present previously, they will adjust their attack lines slightly but there is only so far you can go before people just switch off.

    To give a non Corbyn example even if you believe some of the worst things that people believe about Johnson you probably aren't going to win much more neutral people around to your cause by talking about him as the source of all evil. If you are exposed to partisans of both sides it just becomes people shouting that the other person is evil...

    There was a comment from someone in Labour (maybe an MP anonymously) not long after Corbyn got elected leader (I think I remember Stephen Bush talking about it sometime afterwards) about how rather than going over the top with their attacks on Corbyn they needed much more subtle softer attacks to bring him down. So rather than Corbyn being some figure of hatred just deride him as not very effective or not doing the job well.

    TBH Corbyn's support is partially based on policy so it wouldn't have won everyone round and I think he could have survived attempts to remove him still but I do think it would have been a far more effective method of attack. Going too hard, even if you think it is fully justified as I do with Johnson just puts less partisan people off.

    It is deeply depressing that a minority group feels like this about a party that has a very real chance of being the next government
    Aren't you underestimating the problem?

    I don't think it is only a minority group worried about the Conservatives getting in. There is a solution, we can stop them by not voting Conservative!

    I mean if you really are worried about minority concerns about the next government....

  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs2 said:

    .

    I suppose long term Labour MPs that are now actively campaigning against Labour over this are just right wing too. And the vast majority of Jews, a group that has usually been Labour voting, believe that Corbyn is anti-Semitic for the same reasons.
    If we are talking about Ian Austin and John Woodcock then I would say yes definitely. Ed Miliband saw a bigger drop in Jewish support for Labour than Corbyn did. If it dropped down to say Muslim support for Conservatives level then that would be a statement from a community about the prejudice from that party...
    Isn’t the level of Jewish support for Labour now well below even that of Muslims for the Tories ?

    The “neutral”, as you put it, would be pretty turned off by both parties. There is clearly a degree of acceptance of Islamophobia in the Tories - polling indicates half their members would not accept a Muslim PM:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/tory-members-would-not-want-muslim-prime-minister-islamophobia-survey

    Labour’s attitude towards Jews is every bit as dismal, but appears to be top down, whereas with the Tories it seems to be ground up.
    I don't think so but it is an incredibly low bar to reach in fairness.

    There really isn't a comparison between Corbyn and Johnson but it suits partisans to pretend there is, Johnson has repeatedly said racist stuff for electoral effect in national newspapers and elsewhere, the accusations against Corbyn mainly consist of him meeting x or y (sometimes people who are Jewish themselves) talking about another piece of graffiti getting washed off in response to the monopoly board mural and criticising two specific people and pretending it was about all Jewish people. To pretend there is some kind of equality between the two is a joke.

    TBH Labours attitude is the same ground up as it is top down, not many on the left think opposing Palestinian oppression equals anti semitism in the same way protesting apartheid wasn't anti White.
    Let me find a couple of examples to make the comparison for you. Luciana Berger started the last parliament as a Jewish Labour MP and she was hounded out of the party, quit citing the anti-Semitism, and now campaigns against it. Sajid Javid started the last parliament as a Muslim Tory MP and he's now the Chancellor.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Right wing papers being hysterical about Corbyn was present previously, they will adjust their attack lines slightly but there is only so far you can go before people just switch off.

    To give a non Corbyn example even if you believe some of the worst things that people believe about Johnson you probably aren't going to win much more neutral people around to your cause by talking about him as the source of all evil. If you are exposed to partisans of both sides it just becomes people shouting that the other person is evil...

    There was a comment from someone in Labour (maybe an MP anonymously) not long after Corbyn got elected leader (I think I remember Stephen Bush talking about it sometime afterwards) about how rather than going over the top with their attacks on Corbyn they needed much more subtle softer attacks to bring him down. So rather than Corbyn being some figure of hatred just deride him as not very effective or not doing the job well.

    TBH Corbyn's support is partially based on policy so it wouldn't have won everyone round and I think he could have survived attempts to remove him still but I do think it would have been a far more effective method of attack. Going too hard, even if you think it is fully justified as I do with Johnson just puts less partisan people off.

    It is deeply depressing that a minority group feels like this about a party that has a very real chance of being the next government
    Aren't you underestimating the problem?

    I don't think it is only a minority group worried about the Conservatives getting in. There is a solution, we can stop them by not voting Conservative!

    I mean if you really are worried about minority concerns about the next government....

    You are contemptible.

    Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.

    And you choose to joke about it.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
    Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
    You really don't get it do you? Corbyn supports Hamas and courts a Muslim vote - at the extreme end of which persecution of religious and gay people is considered acceptable.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Drutt said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs2 said:

    .

    Isn’t the level of Jewish support for Labour now well below even that of Muslims for the Tories ?

    The “neutral”, as you put it, would be pretty turned off by both parties. There is clearly a degree of acceptance of Islamophobia in the Tories - polling indicates half their members would not accept a Muslim PM:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/tory-members-would-not-want-muslim-prime-minister-islamophobia-survey

    Labour’s attitude towards Jews is every bit as dismal, but appears to be top down, whereas with the Tories it seems to be ground up.
    I don't think so but it is an incredibly low bar to reach in fairness.

    There really isn't a comparison between Corbyn and Johnson but it suits partisans to pretend there is, Johnson has repeatedly said racist stuff for electoral effect in national newspapers and elsewhere, the accusations against Corbyn mainly consist of him meeting x or y (sometimes people who are Jewish themselves) talking about another piece of graffiti getting washed off in response to the monopoly board mural and criticising two specific people and pretending it was about all Jewish people. To pretend there is some kind of equality between the two is a joke.

    TBH Labours attitude is the same ground up as it is top down, not many on the left think opposing Palestinian oppression equals anti semitism in the same way protesting apartheid wasn't anti White.
    Let me find a couple of examples to make the comparison for you. Luciana Berger started the last parliament as a Jewish Labour MP and she was hounded out of the party, quit citing the anti-Semitism, and now campaigns against it. Sajid Javid started the last parliament as a Muslim Tory MP and he's now the Chancellor.
    Let me find a couple of examples to make the comparison for you. Rhea Wolfson and Charlotte something, she's ginger... Jewish and now standing as prospective Labour MPs. Mohammed Amin leader of the Conservative Muslim forum left the party.

    More Jewish people (as a percentage) voted for a Corbyn led Labour party than Muslims (as a percentage) voted for a May led Tory party. Anyone wanna bet on Johnson beating Corbyn in this race by any significant margin?

    Even with national newspapers trying to smear Corbyn as a racist and ignoring or excusing Johnsons many racist actions I'll be surprised if Corbyn doesn't win this particular race again.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs2 said:

    .

    I suppose long term Labour MPs
    If we are talking about Ian Austin and John Woodcock then I would say yes definitely. Ed Miliband saw a bigger drop in Jewish support for Labour than Corbyn did. If it dropped down to say Muslim support for Conservatives level then that would be a statement from a community about the prejudice from that party...
    Isn’t the level of Jewish support for Labour now well below even that of Muslims for the Tories ?

    The “neutral”, as you put it, would be pretty turned off by both parties. There is clearly a degree of acceptance of Islamophobia in the Tories - polling indicates half their members would not accept a Muslim PM:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/tory-members-would-not-want-muslim-prime-minister-islamophobia-survey

    Labour’s attitude towards Jews is every bit as dismal, but appears to be top down, whereas with the Tories it seems to be ground up.
    I don't think so but it is an incredibly low bar to reach in fairness.

    There really isn't a comparison between Corbyn and Johnson but it suits partisans to pretend there is, Johnson has repeatedly said racist stuff for electoral effect in national newspapers and elsewhere, the accusations against Corbyn mainly consist of him meeting x or y (sometimes people who are Jewish themselves) talking about another piece of graffiti getting washed off in response to the monopoly board mural and criticising two specific people and pretending it was about all Jewish people. To pretend there is some kind of equality between the two is a joke.

    TBH Labours attitude is the same ground up as it is top down, not many on the left think opposing Palestinian oppression equals anti semitism in the same way protesting apartheid wasn't anti White.
    I see a problem sometimes where people are relentlessly criticising the Israeli government, but silent about other shitty governments. Sometimes this stinks.
    Corbyn, to be fair, criticises Israel but also Saudi Arabia. He criticises Netanyahu, but also Modi. His problem is that his sympathy with the Palestinian cause blinds him to what looks like racism in some of his supporters.

    BTW, I don't think this racism is always antisemitism. Think about why some on the left criticise Netanyahu but not Modi, who is surely at least as bad. I think there's a kind of racism (or "West-centrism") Modi can't really be blamed on the West and the US, whereas Netanyahu can. It confuses Europeans who see "Western" powers as the only ones capable of having agency, so they ignore it, so a kind of racism in a way.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Charles said:



    You are contemptible.

    Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.

    And you choose to joke about it.

    There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.

  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    I'm the first to criticise people for a short attention span but who in their right mind will watch that to the end?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Doubt it will get anywhere, but may be a laying opportunity for those who bet.

    He's apparently looking to file for the Alabama primary (deadline Friday). Seems like keeping options rather than anything else

    Michael Bloomberg, the billionaire former mayor of New York City, is laying the groundwork to enter the Democratic presidential race months before voters in Iowa and New Hampshire kick off the fight to choose the 2020 nominee.

    https://www.ft.com/content/f836f8ca-01b1-11ea-b7bc-f3fa4e77dd47
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:



    You are contemptible.

    Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.

    And you choose to joke about it.

    There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.

    What don’t you get?

    The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.

    Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)

    The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.

  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437
    camel said:

    I'm the first to criticise people for a short attention span but who in their right mind will watch that to the end?
    Well: the HUNDREDS of people commenting on the Twitter feed for a start.

    You've got to stick with it for at least 30 secs for it to make a comment.

    Underestimating the sticktuitiveness of other people is rarely a shrewd strategy

  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    Off topic, it's absolute carnage in the cricket. Malan hundred not out off 48 balls, Morgan 91 off 41
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
    Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
    I have several extended family members who were labelled "objectively dumb" for emigrating to the UK from Europe at various points from the mid 1920s to mid 1930s.

    I also have several extended family members, none of whom I've ever met, who have retrospectively been labelled "objectively dumb" for still being there in 1938 and finding they were unable to leave.

    These are not the sort of mistakes one makes twice. And we have a long collective memory for these things. I know several very smart people not given to overreactions who are quietly putting contingency plans in place for leaving this country.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    Fabulous willow-wielding for England from Malan and Morgan. 241/3 is astonishing. Captain Morgan we know about, but Malan has a fabulous T20i record.

  • Charles said:


    Regardless of whether or not their solution is “objectively dumb” doesn’t it concern you that nearly half of a minority community are considering it an appropriate response?

    Sorry, maybe I missed something, where does the figure of nearly half come from?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
  • At a personal level, both Corbyn and Johnson have spent their entire adult lives pandering to racists. I don't think either believes in racial supremacy, but both clearly feel that certain groups in our society do not merit the courtesies, considerations and protections that others do - and that instead they are worthy of disdain. That, in my view, makes them racists.

    The difference is that the Labour party is institutinally anti-Semitic - its proicesses and procedures actively discriminate against Jewish people. Hence the EHRC investigation. This is not some right wing plot, it is just a statement of objective truth. Labour members' failure to recognise it - and, even more shamefully - to deflect from it guarantees that we are a long, long way from the problem being sorted out.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    You are contemptible.

    Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.

    And you choose to joke about it.

    There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.

    What don’t you get?

    The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.

    Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)

    The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.

    So Jewish people are terrified of Labour coming into power but come out in greater numbers for Labour than Muslims who are really not bothered about the Tories staying in power... good argument.

    There are Jewish supporters of Corbyn, if Sajid having Muslim heritage means Johnson is okay then so is Corbyn, going by the last election Jewish supporters of Corbyn are more representative of their community than Muslim supporters of the Tories and that was under May not Johnson, who is certainly worse from a Muslim perspective.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    edited November 2019
    Beyond the immorality, the institutional anti-Semitism that Jeremy Corbyn and the far left have brought to the Labour party means that a man incapable of telling the truth will be running the UK for the next few years. Johnson knows that he can lie, lie and lie again because his opponent is unelectable. It is an absolute disaster for the country.
    https://twitter.com/ManufacturingNI/status/1192564837345353728
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Endillion said:

    Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
    Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
    I have several extended family members who were labelled "objectively dumb" for emigrating to the UK from Europe at various points from the mid 1920s to mid 1930s.

    I also have several extended family members, none of whom I've ever met, who have retrospectively been labelled "objectively dumb" for still being there in 1938 and finding they were unable to leave.

    These are not the sort of mistakes one makes twice. And we have a long collective memory for these things. I know several very smart people not given to overreactions who are quietly putting contingency plans in place for leaving this country.
    If you are not Jewish, it is inconceivable that our society could turn against one section of itself and blame them for the ills of the world.

    That it is happening - and under cover of a party of the Left - is even more unthinkable. But that is where Corbyn's Labour Party has taken us. Under him, a small tumour has been allowed to metastasize, as the surgeons of Labour's moderate MPs stood by and refused to perform surgery. And now they are retiring. The patient can't be saved.

    If you are Jewish, that is just history repeating itself.

    Anybody voting against their natural inclinations to support Labour to defeat the dreaded Tories needs to take a long, hard look at their moral compass.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...

    I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,716

    Endillion said:

    Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
    Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
    I have several extended family members who were labelled "objectively dumb" for emigrating to the UK from Europe at various points from the mid 1920s to mid 1930s.

    I also have several extended family members, none of whom I've ever met, who have retrospectively been labelled "objectively dumb" for still being there in 1938 and finding they were unable to leave.

    These are not the sort of mistakes one makes twice. And we have a long collective memory for these things. I know several very smart people not given to overreactions who are quietly putting contingency plans in place for leaving this country.
    If you are not Jewish, it is inconceivable that our society could turn against one section of itself and blame them for the ills of the world.
    https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/743155564746784768?s=21
  • Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.
  • Charles said:

    Doubt it will get anywhere, but may be a laying opportunity for those who bet.

    He's apparently looking to file for the Alabama primary (deadline Friday). Seems like keeping options rather than anything else

    Michael Bloomberg, the billionaire former mayor of New York City, is laying the groundwork to enter the Democratic presidential race months before voters in Iowa and New Hampshire kick off the fight to choose the 2020 nominee.

    https://www.ft.com/content/f836f8ca-01b1-11ea-b7bc-f3fa4e77dd47

    Charles ... I think you mean this is a BACKING opportunity, i.e betting on something taking place, rather than a LAYING opportunity which means precisely the opposite ... Oops!
  • Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.
  • Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.

    There is no moral high ground and it is very clear that a lot of those attacking Corbyn and Labour are doing so for party political reasons not because they have any great objections to racism. As you point out, if they did they would be a lot more critical of many more things that they actually seem quite happy to accept.

    However, the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic. That is shameful. Many of those who opposed Corbyn in 2015 and again 2016 did so precisely because they knew what his leadership of the party would lead to. And so it has come to pass. That not only means Labour itself is now a cesspit being investigated by the EHRC, but also that a racist liar is going to lead the country for the next few years. The self-indulgence of Labour members will never, ever be forgiven. And rightly so.

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs2 said:

    .

    I suppose long term Labour MPs
    .
    I don't think so but it is an incredibly low bar to reach in fairness.

    There really isn't a comparison between Corbyn and Johnson but it suits partisans to pretend there is, Johnson has repeatedly said racist stuff for electoral effect in national newspapers and elsewhere, the accusations against Corbyn mainly consist of him meeting x or y (sometimes people who are Jewish themselves) talking about another piece of graffiti getting washed off in response to the monopoly board mural and criticising two specific people and pretending it was about all Jewish people. To pretend there is some kind of equality between the two is a joke.

    TBH Labours attitude is the same ground up as it is top down, not many on the left think opposing Palestinian oppression equals anti semitism in the same way protesting apartheid wasn't anti White.
    I see a problem sometimes where people are relentlessly criticising the Israeli government, but silent about other shitty governments. Sometimes this stinks.
    Corbyn, to be fair, criticises Israel but also Saudi Arabia. He criticises Netanyahu, but also Modi. His problem is that his sympathy with the Palestinian cause blinds him to what looks like racism in some of his supporters.

    BTW, I don't think this racism is always antisemitism. Think about why some on the left criticise Netanyahu but not Modi, who is surely at least as bad. I think there's a kind of racism (or "West-centrism") Modi can't really be blamed on the West and the US, whereas Netanyahu can. It confuses Europeans who see "Western" powers as the only ones capable of having agency, so they ignore it, so a kind of racism in a way.
    TBH you can only affect Western policy, MBS or Netanyahu don't care what I think. I can however vote for a government than won't offer them assistance and ignore the Palestinians or the Yemenis. Other western countries are somewhat within our zone of public influence, to a far greater extent than the other countries mentioned.

    I'm not sure what if any military assistance we do offer India, which is probably reflective of another aspect of it. If your under 40 then the Middle East has been a huge area of discussion and focus in terms of foreign policy (particularly Western involvement) and war in a way which swamps other areas of the world.
  • Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.

    There is no moral high ground and it is very clear that a lot of those attacking Corbyn and Labour are doing so for party political reasons not because they have any great objections to racism. As you point out, if they did they would be a lot more critical of many more things that they actually seem quite happy to accept.

    However, the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic. That is shameful. Many of those who opposed Corbyn in 2015 and again 2016 did so precisely because they knew what his leadership of the party would lead to. And so it has come to pass. That not only means Labour itself is now a cesspit being investigated by the EHRC, but also that a racist liar is going to lead the country for the next few years. The self-indulgence of Labour members will never, ever be forgiven. And rightly so.

    Oh I won’t be voting Labour. Both main parties are now well beyond the bounds of anyone with a scintilla of decency.

    The country is heading on a downward course for the foreseeable future. The only question is which downward course.
  • Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    Charles said:

    Doubt it will get anywhere, but may be a laying opportunity for those who bet.

    He's apparently looking to file for the Alabama primary (deadline Friday). Seems like keeping options rather than anything else

    Michael Bloomberg, the billionaire former mayor of New York City, is laying the groundwork to enter the Democratic presidential race months before voters in Iowa and New Hampshire kick off the fight to choose the 2020 nominee.

    https://www.ft.com/content/f836f8ca-01b1-11ea-b7bc-f3fa4e77dd47

    Charles ... I think you mean this is a BACKING opportunity, i.e betting on something taking place, rather than a LAYING opportunity which means precisely the opposite ... Oops!
    If he does, and the odds aren’t too long, it is indeed a laying opportunity.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    edited November 2019

    Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.

    There is no moral high ground and it is very clear that a lot of those attacking Corbyn and Labour are doing so for party political reasons not because they have any great objections to racism. As you point out, if they did they would be a lot more critical of many more things that they actually seem quite happy to accept.

    However, the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic. That is shameful. Many of those who opposed Corbyn in 2015 and again 2016 did so precisely because they knew what his leadership of the party would lead to. And so it has come to pass. That not only means Labour itself is now a cesspit being investigated by the EHRC, but also that a racist liar is going to lead the country for the next few years. The self-indulgence of Labour members will never, ever be forgiven. And rightly so.

    Oh I won’t be voting Labour. Both main parties are now well beyond the bounds of anyone with a scintilla of decency.

    The country is heading on a downward course for the foreseeable future. The only question is which downward course.

    Yep. I do not think we are close to peak anger yet. Johnson cannot carry on lying consequence-free forever. At some point there is going to be a reckoning, just as there was for Theresa May.

  • Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.
  • Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

  • Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

    We are some way past the beginning I think.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...

    I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
    Then I hope you get mightily annoyed.

    I hope you get mightily annoyed by Labour losing a chunk of its seats in this election, of Corbyn standing down, humilated, with 99.9% of his anti-semites washed away from power by the Domestos of democracy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Can the CLP reject all candidates, and demand a rerun, or will the NEC then just impose their preferred nutter, ooops, candidate anyway?

    However you look at it, the NEC seem to be doing their damndest to alienate al their activists and lose the seat.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...

    I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
    Then I hope you get mightily annoyed.

    I hope you get mightily annoyed by Labour losing a chunk of its seats in this election, of Corbyn standing down, humilated, with 99.9% of his anti-semites washed away from power by the Domestos of democracy.
    Which has yet to do anything for brown stain Boris.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...

    I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
    Then I hope you get mightily annoyed.

    I hope you get mightily annoyed by Labour losing a chunk of its seats in this election, of Corbyn standing down, humilated, with 99.9% of his anti-semites washed away from power by the Domestos of democracy.
    I may have underestimated how obvious my sarcasm was, I'll leave you to your swivel eyed frothing and go do something else...
  • ydoethur said:

    Can the CLP reject all candidates, and demand a rerun, or will the NEC then just impose their preferred nutter, ooops, candidate anyway?

    However you look at it, the NEC seem to be doing their damndest to alienate al their activists and lose the seat.

    The CLP have had the choice taken away from them. The NEC will decide who the candidate will be.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...

    I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
    Then I hope you get mightily annoyed.

    I hope you get mightily annoyed by Labour losing a chunk of its seats in this election, of Corbyn standing down, humilated, with 99.9% of his anti-semites washed away from power by the Domestos of democracy.
    Which has yet to do anything for brown stain Boris.
    To play devil's advocate, the one possible way the Tories score over Labour is it's very easy to imagine Johnson being removed very fast as soon as he becomes a liability, which is about 18 months-2years away tops. There is then the realistic prospect of him being replaced by somebody much better. The ruthlessness of Tory MPs is legendary and will be useful.

    With Labour, the real problem is not that they made such a dreadful mistake with Corbyn, but that they (a) are unable to correct it by removing him and (b) even if he resigns, it's entirely possible the membership will replace him with somebody even more loathsome and incompetent, for example, Bailey, Cat Smith, Pidcock, Burgon or Lavery.

    So in a binary choice the Tories offer a potential way back but Labour don't. That's different from saying the Tories will improve, but I'm struggling at this moment to see how Labour recover.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    ydoethur said:

    Can the CLP reject all candidates, and demand a rerun, or will the NEC then just impose their preferred nutter, ooops, candidate anyway?

    However you look at it, the NEC seem to be doing their damndest to alienate al their activists and lose the seat.

    The CLP have had the choice taken away from them. The NEC will decide who the candidate will be.

    So the Tories are now hot favourites in Bassetlaw?

    What a shambles this is.
  • Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...

    I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
    Then I hope you get mightily annoyed.

    I hope you get mightily annoyed by Labour losing a chunk of its seats in this election, of Corbyn standing down, humilated, with 99.9% of his anti-semites washed away from power by the Domestos of democracy.
    Which has yet to do anything for brown stain Boris.

    The full limitations of first past the post are now being exposed. Most voters are now faced with a negative choice of what they perceive to be the least worst option. That will win the Tories the election, but we are still going to be left with a serial liar and racist running the country.

  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can the CLP reject all candidates, and demand a rerun, or will the NEC then just impose their preferred nutter, ooops, candidate anyway?

    However you look at it, the NEC seem to be doing their damndest to alienate al their activists and lose the seat.

    The CLP have had the choice taken away from them. The NEC will decide who the candidate will be.

    So the Tories are now hot favourites in Bassetlaw?

    What a shambles this is.

    Yep - the far-left has gifted them the seat.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    camel said:

    I'm the first to criticise people for a short attention span but who in their right mind will watch that to the end?
    Maybe its me. I find these kind of longitudinal studies fascinating. I even enjoy the ones about brands and largest companies. It borders on the hypnotic #guiltypleasures
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    At a personal level, both Corbyn and Johnson have spent their entire adult lives pandering to racists. I don't think either believes in racial supremacy, but both clearly feel that certain groups in our society do not merit the courtesies, considerations and protections that others do - and that instead they are worthy of disdain. That, in my view, makes them racists.

    The difference is that the Labour party is institutinally anti-Semitic - its proicesses and procedures actively discriminate against Jewish people. Hence the EHRC investigation. This is not some right wing plot, it is just a statement of objective truth. Labour members' failure to recognise it - and, even more shamefully - to deflect from it guarantees that we are a long, long way from the problem being sorted out.

    There are plenty of racists in the Conservative Party. Jews, Blacks, Arabs, Estonians. They are equal opportunity racists. It is low level and largely excludes the leadership.

    For those in the Labour Party and in particular the leadership, for transparent ideological reasons, there is but one minority that receives their ire.
  • ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...

    I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
    Then I hope you get mightily annoyed.

    I hope you get mightily annoyed by Labour losing a chunk of its seats in this election, of Corbyn standing down, humilated, with 99.9% of his anti-semites washed away from power by the Domestos of democracy.
    Which has yet to do anything for brown stain Boris.
    To play devil's advocate, the one possible way the Tories score over Labour is it's very easy to imagine Johnson being removed very fast as soon as he becomes a liability, which is about 18 months-2years away tops. There is then the realistic prospect of him being replaced by somebody much better. The ruthlessness of Tory MPs is legendary and will be useful.

    With Labour, the real problem is not that they made such a dreadful mistake with Corbyn, but that they (a) are unable to correct it by removing him and (b) even if he resigns, it's entirely possible the membership will replace him with somebody even more loathsome and incompetent, for example, Bailey, Cat Smith, Pidcock, Burgon or Lavery.

    So in a binary choice the Tories offer a potential way back but Labour don't. That's different from saying the Tories will improve, but I'm struggling at this moment to see how Labour recover.

    That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2019

    Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.

    There is no moral high ground and it is very clear that a lot of those attacking Corbyn and Labour are doing so for party political reasons not because they have any great objections to racism. As you point out, if they did they would be a lot more critical of many more things that they actually seem quite happy to accept.

    However, the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic. That is shameful. Many of those who opposed Corbyn in 2015 and again 2016 did so precisely because they knew what his leadership of the party would lead to. And so it has come to pass. That not only means Labour itself is now a cesspit being investigated by the EHRC, but also that a racist liar is going to lead the country for the next few years. The self-indulgence of Labour members will never, ever be forgiven. And rightly so.

    Regarding moral high ground, what other reason, other than trying to place themselves on it, was there for Ed Miliband and Co to put Corbyn on the ballot? They didn’t want him to win, they must have known what his & his supporters politics were.

    They wanted to advertise how tolerant and progressive they were, especially as they thought there’d be no price to pay.

    Then they realised they’d laid a 1000/1 shot that won

    Same could be said for the other sides centrists who enabled an option they simultaneously thought of as disastrous and not going to happen
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721

    Beyond the immorality, the institutional anti-Semitism that Jeremy Corbyn and the far left have brought to the Labour party means that a man incapable of telling the truth will be running the UK for the next few years. Johnson knows that he can lie, lie and lie again because his opponent is unelectable. It is an absolute disaster for the country.
    https://twitter.com/ManufacturingNI/status/1192564837345353728

    It is clear that either BoZo doesn't understand his own Deal, or he is willing to lie about it.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.

    When is the Saj’s investigation into Islamaphobia kicking off?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    I would be mightily annoyed if this Pro Corbyn piece was tainted by something written by a critic of Corbyn...

    I knew what I was signing up for when I signed up, which is why I don't understand some of the complaints from Brexiteers about bias in the articles...
    Then I hope you get mightily annoyed.

    I hope you get mightily annoyed by Labour losing a chunk of its seats in this election, of Corbyn standing down, humilated, with 99.9% of his anti-semites washed away from power by the Domestos of democracy.
    Which has yet to do anything for brown stain Boris.
    To play devil's advocate, the one possible way the Tories score over Labour is it's very easy to imagine Johnson being removed very fast as soon as he becomes a liability, which is about 18 months-2years away tops. There is then the realistic prospect of him being replaced by somebody much better. The ruthlessness of Tory MPs is legendary and will be useful.

    With Labour, the real problem is not that they made such a dreadful mistake with Corbyn, but that they (a) are unable to correct it by removing him and (b) even if he resigns, it's entirely possible the membership will replace him with somebody even more loathsome and incompetent, for example, Bailey, Cat Smith, Pidcock, Burgon or Lavery.

    So in a binary choice the Tories offer a potential way back but Labour don't. That's different from saying the Tories will improve, but I'm struggling at this moment to see how Labour recover.
    It’s a view.
    I’m not entirely convinced that the Tories have retained that kind of ruthless pragmatism, as SO suggests. There are equally likely now to replace him with someone worse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited November 2019

    That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.

    There I disagree. Boris Johnson won for two reasons: (1) he promised to leave the EU and (2) he seemed the likeliest candidate to win an election.

    Following next year, (1) loses much of its potency. Therefore (2), the dominating Tory trait in every leadership election of the last 80 years save 2001, suddenly becomes vital. Remember how obsessed Hyufd was with polling showing the Tories would win x million seats under Johnson.

    If the membership are convinced that a centrist candidate will win them an election, they will vote for that candidate. It really is that simple. What’s worrying about Labour is they voted twice for Corbyn even though they knew it would cost them any chance of forming a government.

    Do not mistake phases for ideology.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    edited November 2019

    Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

    Ah Joff, its being so cheerful that keeps you going, right enough.

    Personally I see a future where we continue to improve our standard of living, continue to work to undo the damage done to our environment with renewable energy, electric vehicles and more and better infrastructure, where new homes are built to higher insulation standards and with their own renewable sources, where the stain and embarrassment of Corbyn is finally expunged by a once great party, where we find ourselves with a surprisingly good and close relationship with the EU and wonder what all the fuss was about, where the world continues its long term trends towards peace, less violence and increased tolerance. Surely those who will enjoy the bulk of this century rather than a part of it will live in the best of times that man and women kind has ever known.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

    We are some way past the beginning I think.
    I’ve never been so depressed about an election campaign, the mindless clapping and orchestrated cheering at rallies is vomit inducing. I just remind myself it’s not a binary choice between what I now see as evil from both left and right. Will others? Maybe but I’m not holding my breath.
  • Corybn is icky and historically Jews have a right to be paranoid but this is ridiculous. Their safety isn't threatened by a Labour government, they don't need to flee to Israel.
    How they feel is "ridiculous"? As I guess neither of us are in their shoes I'd be more circumspect on critiquing their reaction.
    Obviously you can't comment on how somebody feels about something without knowing them and the background to how they're feeling, and maybe not even then, as you're not in their heads. But come off it, the idea that they need to flee to Israel to escape a Labour government is objectively dumb.
    I don't think that a Jew would have anything to fear directly from the government, or government policy, though I suppose a sanctions policy on Israel wound provide an opportunity.

    What I do think is possible is that we would see an increase in antisemitism more generally and a government unwilling or unable to do anything about it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    nichomar said:

    Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

    We are some way past the beginning I think.
    I’ve never been so depressed about an election campaign, the mindless clapping and orchestrated cheering at rallies is vomit inducing. I just remind myself it’s not a binary choice between what I now see as evil from both left and right. Will others? Maybe but I’m not holding my breath.
    It now is in Cannock Chase.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:


    Regardless of whether or not their solution is “objectively dumb” doesn’t it concern you that nearly half of a minority community are considering it an appropriate response?

    Sorry, maybe I missed something, where does the figure of nearly half come from?
    The JC article referred to 47% “[actively] considering leaving if Labour is elected”

    (Don’t recall if “actively considering” or merely “considering”)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    nichomar said:

    Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

    We are some way past the beginning I think.
    I’ve never been so depressed about an election campaign, the mindless clapping and orchestrated cheering at rallies is vomit inducing. I just remind myself it’s not a binary choice between what I now see as evil from both left and right. Will others? Maybe but I’m not holding my breath.
    Neither main party is fit for office, and both are led by racists. Fortunately we are not forced to choose between those two. Jo can be a little naive at times, but she is a safe pair of hands compared with those two.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Gabs2 said:

    And people on here accused me of over-egging things. This front page and Maajid's Twitter thread express things so well. In 2017 you could claim Corbyn was just foolish. What has come out since then shows he really is happy for Labour to lean in an anti-Semitic direction.

    I ask everyone thinking of voting for him, or voting for an MP that would make him Prime Minister, to really think of solidarity for your fellow citizens.

    Thought I’d link this - the thread I think you are referring to

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1192479638381043712
    It would be excellent if OGH could amend the thread header to add a link to that Maajid Nawaz summation. It is forensic, it is brutal - and it tells The Jezziah why his party deserves to be crushed.
    Good idea

    @MikeSmithson @TheScreamingEagles @rcs1000
  • isam said:

    Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.

    There is no moral high ground and it is very clear that a lot of those attacking Corbyn and Labour are doing so for party political reasons not because they have any great objections to racism. As you point out, if they did they would be a lot more critical of many more things that they actually seem quite happy to accept.

    However, the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic. That is shameful. Many of those who opposed Corbyn in 2015 and again 2016 did so precisely because they knew what his leadership of the party would lead to. And so it has come to pass. That not only means Labour itself is now a cesspit being investigated by the EHRC, but also that a racist liar is going to lead the country for the next few years. The self-indulgence of Labour members will never, ever be forgiven. And rightly so.

    Regarding moral high ground, what other reason, other than trying to place themselves on it, was there for Ed Miliband and Co to put Corbyn on the ballot? They didn’t want him to win, they must have known what his & his supporters politics were.

    They wanted to advertise how tolerant and progressive they were, especially as they thought there’d be no price to pay.

    Then they realised they’d laid a 1000/1 shot that won

    Same could be said for the other sides centrists who enabled an option they simultaneously thought of as disastrous and not going to happen
    I think there are similarities between the Brexit referendum and the 2015 Labour leadership election. In both cases advocates for the referendum, or for Corbyn to be nominated, made an argument in favour of having a debate/say and not on the outcome that they wanted leaving the EU/electing Corbyn.

    Those were fake arguments. You shouldn't give in to arguments like that to enable things that you don't want. Don't nominate someone you won't vote for and don't hold a referendum that proposes a change you oppose.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    You are contemptible.

    Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.

    And you choose to joke about it.

    There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.

    What don’t you get?

    The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.

    Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)

    The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.

    So Jewish people are terrified of Labour coming into power but come out in greater numbers for Labour than Muslims who are really not bothered about the Tories staying in power... good argument.

    There are Jewish supporters of Corbyn, if Sajid having Muslim heritage means Johnson is okay then so is Corbyn, going by the last election Jewish supporters of Corbyn are more representative of their community than Muslim supporters of the Tories and that was under May not Johnson, who is certainly worse from a Muslim perspective.
    FFS. Look in the mirror.

    A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.

    You disgust me.
  • ydoethur said:

    That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.

    There I disagree. Boris Johnson won for two reasons: (1) he promised to leave the EU and (2) he seemed the likeliest candidate to win an election.

    Following next year, (1) loses much of its potency. Therefore (2), the dominating Tory trait in every leadership election of the last 80 years save 2001, suddenly becomes vital. Remember how obsessed Hyufd was with polling showing the Tories would win x million seats under Johnson.

    If the membership are convinced that a centrist candidate will win them an election, they will vote for that candidate. It really is that simple. What’s worrying about Labour is they voted twice for Corbyn even though they knew it would cost them any chance of forming a government.

    Do not mistake phases for ideology.

    The membership now is not the membership that was. Look at the PB Tories who have walked away. They are being replaced by ideologues every bit as zealous as those in the Labour party.

  • DavidL said:

    Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

    Ah Joff, its being so cheerful that keeps you going, right enough.

    Personally I see a future where we continue to improve our standard of living, continue to work to undo the damage done to our environment with renewable energy, electric vehicles and more and better infrastructure, where new homes are built to higher insulation standards and with their own renewable sources, where the stain and embarrassment of Corbyn is finally expunged by a once great party, where we find ourselves with a surprisingly good and close relationship with the EU and wonder what all the fuss was about, where the world continues its long term trends towards peace, less violence and increased tolerance. Surely those who will enjoy the bulk of this century rather than a part of it will live in the best of times that man and women kind has ever known.

    Good luck with that, David!

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609



    That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.

    Bollocks. For all the attempts to paint him otherwise, Boris is a One Nation Conservative, who governed London as such whilst Mayor. The new intake will be lagely One Nation Conservatives. Neither ERG-compliant nor Europhile headbangers. Mirroring the bulk of the current Parliamentary party and the membership.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    And to add to my general cheerfulness I see health care on the edge of truly dramatic improvements based on an understanding of our genes and DNA, the DNA of cancer and many other illnesses that have caused so much misery and death.

    I see a society, contrary to the doom mongers, which actually takes the control of power seriously as the Supreme Court did with the government all too recently, where we are almost too painfully aware of the undesirability of causing hurt to others but for all our moaning about it recognise this is important, where technology is helping to create the most informed generation in history by a massive margin, where the truth will ultimately out and lies will ultimately be exposed in a way that would never have happened before, there is really a lot to be cheerful about.

    Our bemoaning our failures, the failures of our leaders and even the failures of our politics is how we drive ourselves to do better. We are not heading downwards but upwards. The path is crooked (like some of our politicians) but it is upward.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Foxy said:

    nichomar said:

    Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

    We are some way past the beginning I think.
    I’ve never been so depressed about an election campaign, the mindless clapping and orchestrated cheering at rallies is vomit inducing. I just remind myself it’s not a binary choice between what I now see as evil from both left and right. Will others? Maybe but I’m not holding my breath.
    Neither main party is fit for office, and both are led by racists. Fortunately we are not forced to choose between those two. Jo can be a little naive at times, but she is a safe pair of hands compared with those two.
    Its a interesting point , if the LDs cant break through and get a good share of the vote under these circumstances I dont know if they ever will. Both parties have noticeably shifted away from the centre...LD's appear to be facing an open goal........
  • At a personal level, both Corbyn and Johnson have spent their entire adult lives pandering to racists. I don't think either believes in racial supremacy, but both clearly feel that certain groups in our society do not merit the courtesies, considerations and protections that others do - and that instead they are worthy of disdain. That, in my view, makes them racists.

    The difference is that the Labour party is institutinally anti-Semitic - its proicesses and procedures actively discriminate against Jewish people. Hence the EHRC investigation. This is not some right wing plot, it is just a statement of objective truth. Labour members' failure to recognise it - and, even more shamefully - to deflect from it guarantees that we are a long, long way from the problem being sorted out.

    Its depressing to see genuine concern from the JC and EHRC being dismissed as "right wing".

    Right or wrong over racism should cross lines of right or left on economics.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Foxy said:

    nichomar said:

    Its very simple. The Labour Party is institutionally anti-semitic. We have example after example after example of AS not only tolerated in Corbyn's Labour Party but openly welcomed. I have to wonder if it is now part of the selection process going off how many recently unveiled candidates are anti-semites.

    I'm not Jewish. So this doesn't affect me directly. Except that it does. I can now more allow the oppression of Jews than I can persecution of any group. Its wrong. Its racism. Its the DIRECT OPPOSITE of everything the Labour Party stands for.

    In Stockton we have celebrated the 1933 "Battle of Stockton" where fascists were chased out of town. And yet here we are with the same people celebrating the seeing off of Jew hate providing it not just succour but openly welcoming it in the same party.

    This is beyond party politics, this is about basic human decency.

    Precisely - except for one thing: it does directly affect you. It has profound consequences for the kind of country we will be. The unelectability of the Labour party leads directly to a hard right, English nationalist government led by a serial liar who is himself a racist.

    I shouldn't have written for effect - "except that it does [affect me]". And not just the unelectability of Labour. Look at the increasingly nasty shouty hate filled mess that is England. Jew hate only makes it worse.

    Yep - we are only at the beginning of the downward spiral. This has many, many years to run yet.

    We are some way past the beginning I think.
    I’ve never been so depressed about an election campaign, the mindless clapping and orchestrated cheering at rallies is vomit inducing. I just remind myself it’s not a binary choice between what I now see as evil from both left and right. Will others? Maybe but I’m not holding my breath.
    Neither main party is fit for office, and both are led by racists. Fortunately we are not forced to choose between those two. Jo can be a little naive at times, but she is a safe pair of hands compared with those two.
    And I can’t vote for her.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Dr. Foxy, you've phrased that as a choice, but both could be true.

    On-topic: not been watching the news much. How much time has this front cover received?
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:



    You are contemptible.

    Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.

    And you choose to joke about it.

    There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.

    What don’t you get?

    The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.

    Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)

    The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.

    So Jewish people are terrified of Labour coming into power but come out in greater numbers for Labour than Muslims who are really not bothered about the Tories staying in power... good argument.

    There are Jewish supporters of Corbyn, if Sajid having Muslim heritage means Johnson is okay then so is Corbyn, going by the last election Jewish supporters of Corbyn are more representative of their community than Muslim supporters of the Tories and that was under May not Johnson, who is certainly worse from a Muslim perspective.
    FFS. Look in the mirror.

    A section of our community is scared and you come out with fucking polls.

    You disgust me.
    To be precise a section of a section of our community are scared.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    ydoethur said:

    That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.

    There I disagree. Boris Johnson won for two reasons: (1) he promised to leave the EU and (2) he seemed the likeliest candidate to win an election.

    Following next year, (1) loses much of its potency. Therefore (2), the dominating Tory trait in every leadership election of the last 80 years save 2001, suddenly becomes vital. Remember how obsessed Hyufd was with polling showing the Tories would win x million seats under Johnson.

    If the membership are convinced that a centrist candidate will win them an election, they will vote for that candidate. It really is that simple. What’s worrying about Labour is they voted twice for Corbyn even though they knew it would cost them any chance of forming a government.

    Do not mistake phases for ideology.

    The membership now is not the membership that was. Look at the PB Tories who have walked away. They are being replaced by ideologues every bit as zealous as those in the Labour party.

    I am aware of that, which is I am not saying it WILL happen. I do however still think it possible fear of a hard-left Labour may lead to a pragmatic leadership.

    Bottom line is, no way back for Labour, possible way back for the Tories.

    Here’s hoping I’m wrong and Labour elect a sane and intelligent leader who doesn’t work for neo-Nazi regimes in the New Year.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Jo Swinson should ditch stop Brexit and change her slogan to The Sane Choice!


  • That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.

    Bollocks. For all the attempts to paint him otherwise, Boris is a One Nation Conservative, who governed London as such whilst Mayor. The new intake will be lagely One Nation Conservatives. Neither ERG-compliant nor Europhile headbangers. Mirroring the bulk of the current Parliamentary party and the membership.

    Johnson beat an anti-Semite in London and will beat an anti-Semite in the UK. But those who sit next to and behind him in the next Parliament will tell us what the Tories now are: the party of Francois, Bridgen, Raab, Rees Mogg, Patel and the hard right ERG.

  • Charles said:

    Charles said:


    Regardless of whether or not their solution is “objectively dumb” doesn’t it concern you that nearly half of a minority community are considering it an appropriate response?

    Sorry, maybe I missed something, where does the figure of nearly half come from?
    The JC article referred to 47% “[actively] considering leaving if Labour is elected”

    (Don’t recall if “actively considering” or merely “considering”)
    Meh, you'd get a pretty substantial number if you polled Conservative Party members with a "would you consider emigrating if" type question.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:



    You are contemptible.

    Whether or not they are justified, the fears of a group of our fellow citizens are real.

    And you choose to joke about it.

    There isn't really a joke there, claiming to be worried about minority concerns and then voting Conservative is.

    What don’t you get?

    The Jewish community is terrified and nearly half are considering leaving the country.

    Of course there are some racists in the Tory party - as in every party - but they have a Muslim heritage Chancellor (I believe he’s agnostic?)

    The Muslim community may not vote Tory, but they are not afraid of them.

    How very kind of you to appoint yourself as spokesperson for the entire Muslim community in the UK. I'm sure they'll be very happy to have you in the role.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Conservative Leavers who gleefully fell in behind a campaign of race-baiting to win a referendum and who are now advocating a vote for a party that in the last three months sought to suspend democracy have no claim to the moral high ground.

    There is no moral high ground and it is very clear that a lot of those attacking Corbyn and Labour are doing so for party political reasons not because they have any great objections to racism. As you point out, if they did they would be a lot more critical of many more things that they actually seem quite happy to accept.

    However, the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic. That is shameful. Many of those who opposed Corbyn in 2015 and again 2016 did so precisely because they knew what his leadership of the party would lead to. And so it has come to pass. That not only means Labour itself is now a cesspit being investigated by the EHRC, but also that a racist liar is going to lead the country for the next few years. The self-indulgence of Labour members will never, ever be forgiven. And rightly so.

    Regarding moral high ground, what other reason, other than trying to place themselves on it, was there for Ed Miliband and Co to put Corbyn on the ballot? They didn’t want him to win, they must have known what his & his supporters politics were.

    They wanted to advertise how tolerant and progressive they were, especially as they thought there’d be no price to pay.

    Then they realised they’d laid a 1000/1 shot that won

    Same could be said for the other sides centrists who enabled an option they simultaneously thought of as disastrous and not going to happen
    I think there are similarities between the Brexit referendum and the 2015 Labour leadership election. In both cases advocates for the referendum, or for Corbyn to be nominated, made an argument in favour of having a debate/say and not on the outcome that they wanted leaving the EU/electing Corbyn.

    Those were fake arguments. You shouldn't give in to arguments like that to enable things that you don't want. Don't nominate someone you won't vote for and don't hold a referendum that proposes a change you oppose.
    That’s what I was trying to say!!

    I’d add ‘don’t try and overturn the result when the thing you nominated insincerely turns out to be the most popular option’
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That is a very fair point, but one with a deep flaw: given the make-up of both the Parliamentary party and the party in the country post-12th December, the only realistic replacement for Johnson is somoene from the hard right.

    There I disagree. Boris Johnson won for two reasons: (1) he promised to leave the EU and (2) he seemed the likeliest candidate to win an election.

    Following next year, (1) loses much of its potency. Therefore (2), the dominating Tory trait in every leadership election of the last 80 years save 2001, suddenly becomes vital. Remember how obsessed Hyufd was with polling showing the Tories would win x million seats under Johnson.

    If the membership are convinced that a centrist candidate will win them an election, they will vote for that candidate. It really is that simple. What’s worrying about Labour is they voted twice for Corbyn even though they knew it would cost them any chance of forming a government.

    Do not mistake phases for ideology.

    The membership now is not the membership that was. Look at the PB Tories who have walked away. They are being replaced by ideologues every bit as zealous as those in the Labour party.

    I am aware of that, which is I am not saying it WILL happen. I do however still think it possible fear of a hard-left Labour may lead to a pragmatic leadership.

    Bottom line is, no way back for Labour, possible way back for the Tories.

    Here’s hoping I’m wrong and Labour elect a sane and intelligent leader who doesn’t work for neo-Nazi regimes in the New Year.

    I think you are probably right on Labour.

This discussion has been closed.