Now who is calling for out of SM but in the CU exactly? Besides Remainers trying to foist nonsense on us, can you name anyone who actually thinks this is better than either Remaining or Leaving properly?
I didn’t mean “your” in literally just you.
We wouldn’t be in the (definite article) CU but we would negotiate a CU with the EU. Turkey has one. It’s an important difference and it is leaving properly as we will no longer be signatories to the EU treaties. Also keeps Unionists and Nationalists in NI happy in a way an FTA wouldn’t. Have you tried exporting anything to Canada? Hardly frictionless.
So far as I can tell this is Labour’s policy but TBF who can be sure these days.
Labour's policy as far as I can tell is they don't want to leave but that is the bullshit they're putting up as the alternative.
Can you name any prominent Brexiteers who are promoting a CU as being the Brexit they want. Why would you put up a form of Brexit nobody wants, not even the people proposing it?
Because it’s a solution that deserves consideration? Are you saying that ideas should never be considered because they are unpopular?
Not sure why only prominent Brexiteers should have a say. And anyway, a prominent Brexiteer supporting it is Jeremy Corbyn.
It does not deserve consideration because it cannot happen. It is as much a unicorn as any extremist Brexiteer fantasy. No Deal might be terrible but it is possible. Staying in the EU CU is not possible without remaining in the EU.
No. That’s simply factually incorrect. The proposal is a CU with the EU, as Turkey has - not remaining in the EU Customs Union itself. It deserves consideration as it is the policy of the second largest party in the Commons.
The SNP want to amend the bill to add V@16 and Veuc - the government won’t vote for that so we are an impasse. I think the SNP position is right: V@16 and Veuc are great ideas.
The SNP want to amend the bill to add V@16 and Veuc - the government won’t vote for that so we are an impasse. I think the SNP position is right: V@16 and Veuc are great ideas.
Seems like there might be a majority for that without the Tories. What do the unreconciled ex-cons think?
They would need some Tory votes or abstentions of course. Yet voting it through without the Tory front bench would be a hoot. Election with Vas and Veuc and Tories voting against the election - frit!
Won’t happen of course but we are in fantasy politics.
Looks like the penny is dropping with Brexiters. A General Election on the terms Boris appears to be conceeding makes Brexit utterly contingent. An election creates a second chronologically superior mandate to the 3.5 year old advisory referendum. And one for an omnicompetent and soveriegn parliament. Maybe it will deliver a majority for Brexit. But maybe it won't. And every opposition party currently in the Commons ( and the DUP ) will come back with a fresh mandate and hardened opposition to Boris' deal. I wonder what the ex Spartans who bought in to Boris' deal and threw the DUP under a bus feel now ? That they haven't push Brexit over the line but instead taken a massive gamble on Brexit itself ?
Given that Brexit was dependent upon the likes of Lisa Nandy voting for it perhaps they would prefer to take a chance with a GE.
But, if Lisa Nandy gets re-elected on a manifesto committed to a second referendum, then she will (justifiably) feel even less need to back a Brexit deal than she does now.
(Some of the other 'Brexit-curious' Labour MPs, like Ruth Smeeth and Melanie Onn, will probably lose their seats even if Labour manage to somehow limit their net losses to 10-20.)
If there is a Conservative majority after a GE then there will be no need of Labour support.
I'm not sure about that at all -- if there's a Tory majority, and the ERG perceives the alternative to Boris's Deal to be a No Deal Brexit (as opposed to last week, when they perceived the alternative to be Delay, and that therefore the Boris Deal was a lesser evil), I can see them going back to playing silly buggers.
Even today, we had two of the ERG's finest starting to sound less than fulsome in their support for the deal:
I have said repeatedly in recent months that a GE is our system's safety valve.
It is time to go back to the people.
But, boy, Johnson is taking an enormous gamble.
He is
If he loses to Corbyn he will go down in history as the worst Tory leader of them all.
On current polling Corbyn is more likely to go down as the worst Labour leader of them all, Labour is currently polling even worse than 1983 under Foot
Labour polled 22% in the 2010 GE, they then achieved a week or two later 29%.
Your predications are lol! I would be embarrased if i was disprovern as regulary as you have been lately.
I predicted Boris would do a Deal dumping the DUP, I predicted Justin Trudeau would be re elected and I am entirely happy with my prediction Boris will be re elected to get Brexit done
You also predicted
Macron blocking an extension?
Resigning if not out by 31/10?
Won't ask for an extension?
Marie Le Pen winning was my favourite HYUFD prediction.
I don’t think he ever conceded that she did not.
If the voting system was completely different in France, then she would have won, damn it.
Oh, if the bill really is unamendable, then I doubt it's getting through.
The Tories' stubbornness their own worst enemy, again.
Surely that's just taking them at their word. You only need a day for a one line election bill. You need three amendments - the 9th, the 10th, the 11th. Any other amendments would just be playing silly buggers.
Were there any conditions on the extension this morning?
Many and various, but no means to enforce them. We are obliged to nominate a Commissioner. We are to behave nicely. We really ought to resolve this Brexit mess this time. No really. This time. Oh, and the Withdrawal Agreement is not to be renegotiated. No sirree.
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
I wonder whether ex-Ministers (I include some Labour backbenchers here) might think it needs more thought than this? Is it just EU nationals or all legally resident foreign citizens? What about the wider rights of 16 year olds?
Suspect you’re right there’s a majority in principle though. Seems like broadly the right thing to do.
They could give me my vote back while they're at it, that was Conservative policy until they did brexit and got suspicious of anyone with a foreign connection.
Why are the SNP throwing their toys out of their pram?
They are simply trying to amend the bill with Vas and Veuc.
i.e. wanting to sabotage it.
I guess they are feeling a bit left out. After all, their position was verging on coherent, and that is so unfashionable nowadays.
I still don't get why people claim this would sabotage it.
Even if votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens passed, although it would damage the Tories' chances at the margins, they would surely still support the election??
Because there is not a snowflake's chance in hell that the Conservatives would support a bill cynically amended like that, and quite right too. They may be a load of shysters nowadays, but they do have some residue of principle.
If the SNP, or anyone else, want an early election, it has to be on the current rules.
If it was under the current rules, the election would be in 2022
Oh, if the bill really is unamendable, then I doubt it's getting through.
The Tories' stubbornness their own worst enemy, again.
And yet Chuka Umunna was on the radio this morning stating as fact that the bill the Lib Dems were proposing would be designed by the LD and SNP to be unamendable. So is this actually LD stubbornness?
Why are the SNP throwing their toys out of their pram?
They are simply trying to amend the bill with Vas and Veuc.
i.e. wanting to sabotage it.
I guess they are feeling a bit left out. After all, their position was verging on coherent, and that is so unfashionable nowadays.
I still don't get why people claim this would sabotage it.
Even if votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens passed, although it would damage the Tories' chances at the margins, they would surely still support the election??
Because there is not a snowflake's chance in hell that the Conservatives would support a bill cynically amended like that, and quite right too. They may be a load of shysters nowadays, but they do have some residue of principle.
If the SNP, or anyone else, want an early election, it has to be on the current rules.
If it was under the current rules, the election would be in 2022
That option is available, but the SNP don't want it. Nor do the LibDems. Nor do the Conservatives. Nor, indeed, does Labour, inasmuch as they have anything remotely resembling a policy.
I wonder whether ex-Ministers (I include some Labour backbenchers here) might think it needs more thought than this? Is it just EU nationals or all legally resident foreign citizens? What about the wider rights of 16 year olds?
Suspect you’re right there’s a majority in principle though. Seems like broadly the right thing to do.
They could give me my vote back while they're at it, that was Conservative policy until they did brexit and got suspicious of anyone with a foreign connection.
You could argue they should either want to give you the vote (it’s a right as a Brit) or to give it to foreign citizens resident here (it’s about living here and being part of our society); consistency requires one or ‘tother.
I wonder whether ex-Ministers (I include some Labour backbenchers here) might think it needs more thought than this? Is it just EU nationals or all legally resident foreign citizens? What about the wider rights of 16 year olds?
Suspect you’re right there’s a majority in principle though. Seems like broadly the right thing to do.
They could give me my vote back while they're at it, that was Conservative policy until they did brexit and got suspicious of anyone with a foreign connection.
You could argue they should either want to give you the vote (it’s a right as a Brit) or to give it to foreign citizens resident here (it’s about living here and being part of our society); consistency requires one or ‘tother.
Looks like the penny is dropping with Brexiters. A General Election on the terms Boris appears to be conceeding makes Brexit utterly contingent. An election creates a second chronologically superior mandate to the 3.5 year old advisory referendum. And one for an omnicompetent and soveriegn parliament. Maybe it will deliver a majority for Brexit. But maybe it won't. And every opposition party currently in the Commons ( and the DUP ) will come back with a fresh mandate and hardened opposition to Boris' deal. I wonder what the ex Spartans who bought in to Boris' deal and threw the DUP under a bus feel now ? That they haven't push Brexit over the line but instead taken a massive gamble on Brexit itself ?
The election result would not be a superior mandate. If you think this is just going away whatever the result of the election you are very seriously deluded.
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
His constituents are fed up with this Parliament which has refused time after time to deliver Brexit and will not vote for the Boris Deal as stands either, which is precisely why Boris needs a majority to deliver Brexit
And who knows his constituents better than you, eh?
Now who is calling for out of SM but in the CU exactly? Besides Remainers trying to foist nonsense on us, can you name anyone who actually thinks this is better than either Remaining or Leaving properly?
I didn’t mean “your” in literally just you.
We wouldn’t be in the (definite article) CU but we would negotiate a CU with the EU. Turkey has one. It’s an important difference and it is leaving properly as we will no longer be signatories to the EU treaties. Also keeps Unionists and Nationalists in NI happy in a way an FTA wouldn’t. Have you tried exporting anything to Canada? Hardly frictionless.
So far as I can tell this is Labour’s policy but TBF who can be sure these days.
Labour's policy as far as I can tell is they don't want to leave but that is the bullshit they're putting up as the alternative.
Can you name any prominent Brexiteers who are promoting a CU as being the Brexit they want. Why would you put up a form of Brexit nobody wants, not even the people proposing it?
Because it’s a solution that deserves consideration? Are you saying that ideas should never be considered because they are unpopular?
Not sure why only prominent Brexiteers should have a say. And anyway, a prominent Brexiteer supporting it is Jeremy Corbyn.
It does not deserve consideration because it cannot happen. It is as much a unicorn as any extremist Brexiteer fantasy. No Deal might be terrible but it is possible. Staying in the EU CU is not possible without remaining in the EU.
No. That’s simply factually incorrect. The proposal is a CU with the EU, as Turkey has - not remaining in the EU Customs Union itself. It deserves consideration as it is the policy of the second largest party in the Commons.
In which case that is a disastrously bad suggestion and they are conning everyone.
A Turkish style Customs Union means that any country with an FTA with the EU will be allowed to sell into the UK tariff free whilst the UK will not have reciprocal rights. That is the situation for Turkey which is why they said that if the EU signed an FTA with either the US or China - their two biggest trading partners - then they would be forced to withdraw from the EU-Turkey Customs Union.
I wonder whether ex-Ministers (I include some Labour backbenchers here) might think it needs more thought than this? Is it just EU nationals or all legally resident foreign citizens? What about the wider rights of 16 year olds?
Suspect you’re right there’s a majority in principle though. Seems like broadly the right thing to do.
They could give me my vote back while they're at it, that was Conservative policy until they did brexit and got suspicious of anyone with a foreign connection.
You could argue they should either want to give you the vote (it’s a right as a Brit) or to give it to foreign citizens resident here (it’s about living here and being part of our society); consistency requires one or ‘tother.
Fair point
Maybe but I genuinely can’t decide which I think! I’d have to think about it and listen to the arguments.
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
Translation, make it harder to add a Customs Union to a WA and dilute it out of existence or another referendum
Looks like the penny is dropping with Brexiters. A General Election on the terms Boris appears to be conceeding makes Brexit utterly contingent. An election creates a second chronologically superior mandate to the 3.5 year old advisory referendum. And one for an omnicompetent and soveriegn parliament. Maybe it will deliver a majority for Brexit. But maybe it won't. And every opposition party currently in the Commons ( and the DUP ) will come back with a fresh mandate and hardened opposition to Boris' deal. I wonder what the ex Spartans who bought in to Boris' deal and threw the DUP under a bus feel now ? That they haven't push Brexit over the line but instead taken a massive gamble on Brexit itself ?
The election result would not be a superior mandate. If you think this is just going away whatever the result of the election you are very seriously deluded.
Could be. In the very unlikely event that a party won a majority with the explicit manifesto promise to revoke, are you saying that that manifesto promise should be disregarded? I don’t think that holds up.
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
Translation, make it harder to add a Customs Union to a WA and dilute it out of existence or another referendum
Maybe Boris shouldn’t have negotiated a deal that wouldn’t have the support of the Commons, or the country for that matter.
He has a nasty habit in promising things he has no power to deliver.
I think the government bill has been designed to offer concessions .
So ruling out amendments tabled by the opposition but then after some discussions in the morning the government tables its own amendment to the date and another one ruling out the WAIB coming back .
The bill as designed has no chance of getting through without concessions .
Now who is calling for out of SM but in the CU exactly? Besides Remainers trying to foist nonsense on us, can you name anyone who actually thinks this is better than either Remaining or Leaving properly?
I didn’t mean “your” in literally just you.
We wouldn’t be in the (definite article) CU but we would negotiate a CU with the EU. Turkey has one. It’s an important difference and it is leaving properly as we will no longer be signatories to the EU treaties. Also keeps Unionists and Nationalists in NI happy in a way an FTA wouldn’t. Have you tried exporting anything to Canada? Hardly frictionless.
So far as I can tell this is Labour’s policy but TBF who can be sure these days.
Labour's policy as far as I can tell is they don't want to leave but that is the bullshit they're putting up as the alternative.
Can you name any prominent Brexiteers who are promoting a CU as being the Brexit they want. Why would you put up a form of Brexit nobody wants, not even the people proposing it?
Because it’s a solution that deserves consideration? Are you saying that ideas should never be considered because they are unpopular?
Not sure why only prominent Brexiteers should have a say. And anyway, a prominent Brexiteer supporting it is Jeremy Corbyn.
It does not deserve consideration because it cannot happen. It is as much a unicorn as any extremist Brexiteer fantasy. No Deal might be terrible but it is possible. Staying in the EU CU is not possible without remaining in the EU.
No. That’s simply factually incorrect. The proposal is a CU with the EU, as Turkey has - not remaining in the EU Customs Union itself. It deserves consideration as it is the policy of the second largest party in the Commons.
In which case that is a disastrously bad suggestion and they are conning everyone.
A Turkish style Customs Union means that any country with an FTA with the EU will be allowed to sell into the UK tariff free whilst the UK will not have reciprocal rights. That is the situation for Turkey which is why they said that if the EU signed an FTA with either the US or China - their two biggest trading partners - then they would be forced to withdraw from the EU-Turkey Customs Union.
So no it does not deserve consideration.
You’ve just considered it and rejected it. Others may want the same opportunity to consider it and may come to differing conclusions,
Now who is calling for out of SM but in the CU exactly? Besides Remainers trying to foist nonsense on us, can you name anyone who actually thinks this is better than either Remaining or Leaving properly?
I didn’t mean “your” in literally just you.
We wouldn’t be in the (definite article)ss.
So far as I can tell this is Labour’s policy but TBF who can be sure these days.
Labour's policy as far as I can tell is they don't want to leave but that is the bullshit they're putting up as the alternative.
Can you name any prominent Brexiteers who are promoting a CU as being the Brexit they want. Why would you put up a form of Brexit nobody wants, not even the people proposing it?
Because it’s a solution that deserves consideration? Are you saying that ideas should never be considered because they are unpopular?
Not sure why only prominent Brexiteers should have a say. And anyway, a prominent Brexiteer supporting it is Jeremy Corbyn.
It does not deserve consideration because it cannot happen. It is as much a unicorn as any extremist Brexiteer fantasy. No Deal might be terrible but it is possible. Staying in the EU CU is not possible without remaining in the EU.
No. That’s simply factually incorrect. The proposal is a CU with the EU, as Turkey has - not remaining in the EU Customs Union itself. It deserves consideration as it is the policy of the second largest party in the Commons.
In which case that is a disastrously bad suggestion and they are conning everyone.
A Turkish style Customs Union means that any country with an FTA with the EU will be allowed to sell into the UK tariff free whilst the UK will not have reciprocal rights. That is the situation for Turkey which is why they said that if the EU signed an FTA with either the US or China - their two biggest trading partners - then they would be forced to withdraw from the EU-Turkey Customs Union.
So no it does not deserve consideration.
I think the Ken Clarke idea is that we’re big enough that an EU/U.K. CU would include us in trade deals, on the basis that it would be in the EU’s interest to speak on our behalf too (scale wise).
However that is unproven and still leaves our fate in others’ hands, which is why I’m not with Clarke on this one. We can have a pretty “soft” EFTA (even EEA) Brexit without me being too worried (possibly even quite happy) but I think a CU makes no rational sense.
On other matters, I do not believe Keith Vaz should be allowed to remain in Parliament. He should be recalled.
The recall process falls, if there’s a GE
He should have resigned before now. How can you have that sort of judgement passed on you and not have the decency to resign?
It’s worse than that though - he’s despicably trying to say he has a mental illness - rightly described as ludicrous.
Vaz is just scum.
Walked past Vaz the other day looking a bit vacant
Why were you looking a bit vacant?
MPs have been shagging rent boys (using and abusing young men sex workers is another way of putting it) since the year dot, but when you are in public life and found out you have to go. It ties in with being wrong and unlawful whilst MPs make law and People who choose to go into public office have to set example by doing the right thing, giving up habits which are the wrong ones. Whether you are sat on comfy majority or not doesn’t come into it.
It’s clearly worse in the morality scale than getting someone else to take your speeding points.
Watching @HYUFD justify Boris’s failure is very entertaining.
There is no failure from Boris, just delayed success.
Brexit WILL be delivered
You also said that Brexit would be delivered by Oct 31st.
No I did not, I said Boris would refuse to request an extension, which he did whatever Parliament requested.
The fight goes on as this current Parliament will never deliver Brexit so an election it has to be to replace it
Haha. Yes. You didn’t say we’d leave on the 31st and Boris refused an extension.
Beautiful.
Given his record of 'success' in terms of predictions, have we considered the possibility that he is in fact 'Mystic' John McTernan?
MarqueeMark “predicted” that the Wales game on Sunday started at 8am UK time as the Japanese clocks didn’t go back. I’m not going to give much credence to his other predictions.
You’ve just considered it and rejected it. Others may want the same opportunity to consider it and may come to differing conclusions,
So you are proposing something that you accept would be bad for the country. Bear in mind that I don't believe that Brexit will be bad for the country so this is not a matter of equivalence. If you are proposing something that you agree would be disastrous but still want to do it you are no better than the ERG extremists.
I think the Ken Clarke idea is that we’re big enough that an EU/U.K. CU would include us in trade deals, on the basis that it would be in the EU’s interest to speak on our behalf too (scale wise).
However that is unproven and still leaves our fate in others’ hands, which is why I’m not with Clarke on this one. We can have a pretty “soft” EFTA (even EEA) Brexit without me being too worried (possibly even quite happy) but I think a CU makes no rational sense.
Agree completely. EFTA/EEA makes perfect sense. Bolting on a Turkish style CU does not.
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
Translation, make it harder to add a Customs Union to a WA and dilute it out of existence or another referendum
Maybe Boris shouldn’t have negotiated a deal that wouldn’t have the support of the Commons, or the country for that matter.
He has a nasty habit in promising things he has no power to deliver.
His Deal has the support of the country, just not the Commons, hence we need an election
Looks like the penny is dropping with Brexiters. A General Election on the terms Boris appears to be conceeding makes Brexit utterly contingent. An election creates a second chronologically superior mandate to the 3.5 year old advisory referendum. And one for an omnicompetent and soveriegn parliament. Maybe it will deliver a majority for Brexit. But maybe it won't. And every opposition party currently in the Commons ( and the DUP ) will come back with a fresh mandate and hardened opposition to Boris' deal. I wonder what the ex Spartans who bought in to Boris' deal and threw the DUP under a bus feel now ? That they haven't push Brexit over the line but instead taken a massive gamble on Brexit itself ?
The election result would not be a superior mandate. If you think this is just going away whatever the result of the election you are very seriously deluded.
Could be. In the very unlikely event that a party won a majority with the explicit manifesto promise to revoke, are you saying that that manifesto promise should be disregarded? I don’t think that holds up.
I am saying that of course they would follow through but it would be democratically illegitimate given that the original mandate had been ignored and blocked. Under those circumstances they should not expect the 40- 50% or so who still wanted Brexit to accept it or believe it had any legitimacy.
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
If those amendments go through hopefully the bill will be pulled.
You’ve just considered it and rejected it. Others may want the same opportunity to consider it and may come to differing conclusions,
So you are proposing something that you accept would be bad for the country. Bear in mind that I don't believe that Brexit will be bad for the country so this is not a matter of equivalence. If you are proposing something that you agree would be disastrous but still want to do it you are no better than the ERG extremists.
I’m not proposing anything. I’m saying that it is worthy of consideration. Neither am I making any value judgments on the proposal. You really should stop leaping into the ad hominems at the drop of a hat. I’ve been perfectly civil in this exchange.
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
Translation, make it harder to add a Customs Union to a WA and dilute it out of existence or another referendum
Maybe Boris shouldn’t have negotiated a deal that wouldn’t have the support of the Commons, or the country for that matter.
He has a nasty habit in promising things he has no power to deliver.
His Deal has the support of the country, just not the Commons, hence we need an election
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
If those amendments go through hopefully the bill will be pulled.
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
I hope Labour do try and amend the bill with both categories.
They will fail but it will be electoral dynamite for the Tories.
I bet Cummings can't believe the stupidity of some of the opposition.
You’ve just considered it and rejected it. Others may want the same opportunity to consider it and may come to differing conclusions,
So you are proposing something that you accept would be bad for the country. Bear in mind that I don't believe that Brexit will be bad for the country so this is not a matter of equivalence. If you are proposing something that you agree would be disastrous but still want to do it you are no better than the ERG extremists.
I’m not proposing anything. I’m saying that it is worthy of consideration. Neither am I making any value judgments on the proposal. You really should stop leaping into the ad hominems at the drop of a hat. I’ve been perfectly civil in this exchange.
There was no ad hominem. I said that 'If you are proposing..' I am attacking a really stupid idea not the person suggesting it.
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
Translation, make it harder to add a Customs Union to a WA and dilute it out of existence or another referendum
Maybe Boris shouldn’t have negotiated a deal that wouldn’t have the support of the Commons, or the country for that matter.
He has a nasty habit in promising things he has no power to deliver.
His Deal has the support of the country, just not the Commons, hence we need an election
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
I hope Labour do try and amend the bill with both categories.
They will fail but it will be electoral dynamite for the Tories.
I bet Cummings can't believe the stupidity of some of the opposition.
They are SNP amendments and I’m not sure they’d be the Tory dynamite you are hoping for
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
Translation, make it harder to add a Customs Union to a WA and dilute it out of existence or another referendum
Maybe Boris shouldn’t have negotiated a deal that wouldn’t have the support of the Commons, or the country for that matter.
He has a nasty habit in promising things he has no power to deliver.
His Deal has the support of the country, just not the Commons, hence we need an election
That poll doesn’t say what you said it says. It’s the country’s favourite 2nd option. That’s damning with faint praise.
It is the preferred option for first and second choices combined
That’s meaningless because you can’t have both. Why didn’t you post Survation’s previous tweet about the most popular first choice? Can you tell the class what it was?
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
If there's no VfmcD, then there's no way I'm supporting the bill.
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
Oh you’re ramping violence again. Boring.
Not ramping but it is possible, if MPs refuse to deliver Brexit as a majority of voters voted for and refuse to enable a GE then inevitably some may well turn to violence and rioting as an alternative
I wonder whether ex-Ministers (I include some Labour backbenchers here) might think it needs more thought than this? Is it just EU nationals or all legally resident foreign citizens? What about the wider rights of 16 year olds?
Suspect you’re right there’s a majority in principle though. Seems like broadly the right thing to do.
They could give me my vote back while they're at it, that was Conservative policy until they did brexit and got suspicious of anyone with a foreign connection.
You could argue they should either want to give you the vote (it’s a right as a Brit) or to give it to foreign citizens resident here (it’s about living here and being part of our society); consistency requires one or ‘tother.
Fair point
Maybe but I genuinely can’t decide which I think! I’d have to think about it and listen to the arguments.
Another way to do it is just to draw the franchise inclusively. People who aren't really paying attention to the politics of country X won't vote there, so it's not obvious where the damage is. Or if you're really bothered about people having the right to vote twice, have them promise not to vote anywhere else when they register.
What isn't acceptable is a rule that, even if followed by other countries, results in substantial numbers of people not being able to vote anywhere. That's what Britain has now.
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
Oh you’re ramping violence again. Boring.
Not ramping but it is possible, if MPs refuse to deliver Brexit as a majority of voters voted for and refuse to enable a GE then inevitably some may well turn to violence and rioting as an alternative
Nah. Leavers are either cowards or elderly. There will be no rioting on Thursday.
Can someone explain why there's such a ding dong over 9th Dec and 12th Dec cause I can't work it out?
Possibly it's so that the Lib Dems can give Boris Johnson almost exactly what he wants without being seen to be in his pocket. Swinson can force him into a humiliating concession by bringing his landslide victory forward by three days.
Watching @HYUFD justify Boris’s failure is very entertaining.
There is no failure from Boris, just delayed success.
Brexit WILL be delivered
You also said that Brexit would be delivered by Oct 31st.
No I did not, I said Boris would refuse to request an extension, which he did whatever Parliament requested.
The fight goes on as this current Parliament will never deliver Brexit so an election it has to be to replace it
He sent a letter requesting an extension
MLP would have refused a Brexit extension
No he forwarded Parliament's extension request, he refused extension himself
OK on 19/10 you said 'And macron will then veto further extension if the Commons has not voted for a deal by then end of the week'
So do you agree that you were wrong?
No as I have also said Macron would not veto extension if a GE was voted for or EUref2
I quoted your entire post!
No, you selectively quoted one post while completely ignoring all the others and the context in which it was placed as you have your own ideological agenda
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
But properly scrutinised, the Boris deal is unlikely to get through the current Parliament (and almost certainly not without amendments the Tories won’t agree to), which is why the three day malarkey. And why now the election.
And in any event, no one in opposition wants to fight a election immediately after agreeing a Boris deal - whereas Ken is not running again.
Of course the next Parliament might also be hung, but even if that is the case, it is very likely to be differently hung.
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
But we can’t have a late December or January election (campaigning over Christmas) surely? once this week, the last chance for early December election is gone, it will backlash on government if they don’t bring back the WAB and have a budget, don’t you think? Surely you must expect backlash if government continues on strike?
Watching @HYUFD justify Boris’s failure is very entertaining.
There is no failure from Boris, just delayed success.
Brexit WILL be delivered
You also said that Brexit would be delivered by Oct 31st.
No I did not, I said Boris would refuse to request an extension, which he did whatever Parliament requested.
The fight goes on as this current Parliament will never deliver Brexit so an election it has to be to replace it
He sent a letter requesting an extension
MLP would have refused a Brexit extension
No he forwarded Parliament's extension request, he refused extension himself
OK on 19/10 you said 'And macron will then veto further extension if the Commons has not voted for a deal by then end of the week'
So do you agree that you were wrong?
No as I have also said Macron would not veto extension if a GE was voted for or EUref2
I quoted your entire post!
No, you selectively quoted one post while completely ignoring all the others and the context in which it was placed as you have your own ideological agenda
Maybe you shouldn’t say things if you don’t mean them?
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
Oh you’re ramping violence again. Boring.
Not ramping but it is possible, if MPs refuse to deliver Brexit as a majority of voters voted for and refuse to enable a GE then inevitably some may well turn to violence and rioting as an alternative
Nah. Leavers are either cowards or elderly. There will be no rioting on Thursday.
The EDL will likely be in attendance in force as they were on March 31st
Am I missing something, or didn't Ken Clarke have a point when he said there's now sufficient time to properly debate and pass the WAIB and that's what Parliament should do now?
Of course he does.
Yes he does. By going for a GE the Tories are making it harder for a WA to get through in time for the 31/1 date and be properly scrutinised.
Translation, make it harder to add a Customs Union to a WA and dilute it out of existence or another referendum
Maybe Boris shouldn’t have negotiated a deal that wouldn’t have the support of the Commons, or the country for that matter.
He has a nasty habit in promising things he has no power to deliver.
His Deal has the support of the country, just not the Commons, hence we need an election
That poll doesn’t say what you said it says. It’s the country’s favourite 2nd option. That’s damning with faint praise.
It is the preferred option for first and second choices combined
That’s meaningless because you can’t have both. Why didn’t you post Survation’s previous tweet about the most popular first choice? Can you tell the class what it was?
75% of 52% but not 27% of 34% support policy "X" whatever it is and therefore 98% say "Yes" which means "no". So Maybe....
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
Oh you’re ramping violence again. Boring.
Not ramping but it is possible, if MPs refuse to deliver Brexit as a majority of voters voted for and refuse to enable a GE then inevitably some may well turn to violence and rioting as an alternative
Nah. Leavers are either cowards or elderly. There will be no rioting on Thursday.
The EDL will likely be in attendance in force as they were on March 31st
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
Oh you’re ramping violence again. Boring.
Not ramping but it is possible, if MPs refuse to deliver Brexit as a majority of voters voted for and refuse to enable a GE then inevitably some may well turn to violence and rioting as an alternative
Nah. Leavers are either cowards or elderly. There will be no rioting on Thursday.
I wouldn’t rule it out. Even remain rallies have a different tone now 😕
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
If there's no VfmcD, then there's no way I'm supporting the bill.
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
But we can’t have a late December or January election (campaigning over Christmas) surely? And once this week, the last chance for early December election is gone, it will backlash on government if they don’t bring back the WAB and have a budget, don’t you think? Surely you must expect backlash if government continues on strike?
No, I expect further backlash against MPs for refusing to deliver Brexit.
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
If there's no VfmcD, then there's no way I'm supporting the bill.
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
But we can’t have a late December or January election (campaigning over Christmas) surely? And once this week, the last chance for early December election is gone, it will backlash on government if they don’t bring back the WAB and have a budget, don’t you think? Surely you must expect backlash if government continues on strike?
No, I expect further backlash against MPs for refusing to deliver Brexit.
Watching @HYUFD justify Boris’s failure is very entertaining.
There is no failure from Boris, just delayed success.
Brexit WILL be delivered
You also said that Brexit would be delivered by Oct 31st.
No I did not, I said Boris would refuse to request an extension, which he did whatever Parliament requested.
The fight goes on as this current Parliament will never deliver Brexit so an election it has to be to replace it
He sent a letter requesting an extension
MLP would have refused a Brexit extension
No he forwarded Parliament's extension request, he refused extension himself
OK on 19/10 you said 'And macron will then veto further extension if the Commons has not voted for a deal by then end of the week'
So do you agree that you were wrong?
No as I have also said Macron would not veto extension if a GE was voted for or EUref2
I quoted your entire post!
No, you selectively quoted one post while completely ignoring all the others and the context in which it was placed as you have your own ideological agenda
HYUFD is never wrong when his contributions are treated as a whole, because if any individual utterance appears to be wrong, there will be another one which contradicts it.
Not ramping but it is possible, if MPs refuse to deliver Brexit as a majority of voters voted for and refuse to enable a GE then inevitably some may well turn to violence and rioting as an alternative
We demand an election, but on the date our guy specified and not your proposed date 3 days earlier, otherwise we will fucking BURN THIS CITY DOWN
Like many things its not the decision itself that is most annoying, its the yes no maybe failure to even make a decision which is galling.
Sounds like SNP now backing out and LD wont go it alone.
What a clusterf*ck.
So we now waste the run-up to Xmas doing nothing, followed by another crisis in early Jan.
No - Boris brings his WAIB back and it passes with labour mps scared of an election
They won't pass it without adding a CU to it making it redundant as most Tory MPs will not then vote for it
So what does Boris do next week?
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The opposition voted against the WAB (the backbenchers who voted against it want to add a CU anyway) and the opposition would vote against the Queen's Speech too
But Boris has to start governing properly again next week? Even those voting for WAB of all colours now say where is it. The calls from outside politics for a budget will grow too.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
Move on to what? No, he will keep pressing a GE day in, day out until it gets delivered.
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
Oh you’re ramping violence again. Boring.
Not ramping but it is possible, if MPs refuse to deliver Brexit as a majority of voters voted for and refuse to enable a GE then inevitably some may well turn to violence and rioting as an alternative
Nah. Leavers are either cowards or elderly. There will be no rioting on Thursday.
The EDL will likely be in attendance in force as they were on March 31st
Wouldn't they be better rearranging for 31.1.20 or later.
Not ramping but it is possible, if MPs refuse to deliver Brexit as a majority of voters voted for and refuse to enable a GE then inevitably some may well turn to violence and rioting as an alternative
We demand an election, but on the date our guy specified and not your proposed date 3 days earlier, otherwise we will fucking BURN THIS CITY DOWN
Comments
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–Turkey_Customs_Union
Won’t happen of course but we are in fantasy politics.
Plus loads more money.
On the plus side, he won’t be dead. As blofeld said, you only live twice Mr Bond.
But this weeks tactic starts to rebound next week? Opposition saying where’s the budget the nation needs, you’ve passed a queens speech, you got thirty majority for WAB where is it might start to hit home.
In the game of snooker someone is snookered. A shot or two later the other sides snookered?
The fight goes on as this current Parliament will never deliver Brexit so an election it has to be to replace it
MLP would have refused a Brexit extension
A Turkish style Customs Union means that any country with an FTA with the EU will be allowed to sell into the UK tariff free whilst the UK will not have reciprocal rights. That is the situation for Turkey which is why they said that if the EU signed an FTA with either the US or China - their two biggest trading partners - then they would be forced to withdraw from the EU-Turkey Customs Union.
So no it does not deserve consideration.
Beautiful.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primaries/democratic/
He has a nasty habit in promising things he has no power to deliver.
So ruling out amendments tabled by the opposition but then after some discussions in the morning the government tables its own amendment to the date and another one ruling out the WAIB coming back .
The bill as designed has no chance of getting through without concessions .
However that is unproven and still leaves our fate in others’ hands, which is why I’m not with Clarke on this one. We can have a pretty “soft” EFTA (even EEA) Brexit without me being too worried (possibly even quite happy) but I think a CU makes no rational sense.
MPs have been shagging rent boys (using and abusing young men sex workers is another way of putting it) since the year dot, but when you are in public life and found out you have to go. It ties in with being wrong and unlawful whilst MPs make law and People who choose to go into public office have to set example by doing the right thing, giving up habits which are the wrong ones. Whether you are sat on comfy majority or not doesn’t come into it.
It’s clearly worse in the morality scale than getting someone else to take your speeding points.
So do you agree that you were wrong?
Just saying
However Govt could concede on date.
So what are we expecting - Govt concedes date of 9 / 10 / 11 Dec in return for no other amendments?
https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1185485189914464256?s=20
Vas, because if we are trying to engage young people in politics and civic life, it makes sense to let them vote. They can already do so in Scotland.
Veuc, because there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK who have enriched the country greatly and who contribute hugely to our companies and public life.
So I’d back an election on Dec 12 with Vas and Veuc amendments.
If he don’t win the game of snookers this week, the last chance for GE this year or even this winter he has to concede the frame and move on next week surely or end up snookered himself?
The WAB was offered, MPs just voted to amend it out of existence.
Meanwhile a Leavers rally is planned for Westminster on Thursday and may well turn violent
They will fail but it will be electoral dynamite for the Tories.
I bet Cummings can't believe the stupidity of some of the opposition.
Stop looking for insults where there are none.
What isn't acceptable is a rule that, even if followed by other countries, results in substantial numbers of people not being able to vote anywhere. That's what Britain has now.
I quoted your entire post!
And why now the election.
And in any event, no one in opposition wants to fight a election immediately after agreeing a Boris deal - whereas Ken is not running again.
Of course the next Parliament might also be hung, but even if that is the case, it is very likely to be differently hung.
What would be fun is a GE leading to another hung Parliament where the Lib Dems hold the balance of power.
Night all.
I hope that clears it up for you
Votes for money-creating Deities?
Votes for mongrel collared Dogs?
Votes for multiple company Directorships?
The anger is only starting to simmer to the boil
I mean, come on, everybody knows this.